Pulp magazine "Weird Tales" introduced truly cosmic horror to sci fi and fantasy, but it also left a legacy of some of the more troubling elements still lingering in the genre.
I still own some of the magazines from Weird Tales. Still love reading through them, but those very prickly tropes of racism and "damsel in distress" featured in them always make me stop and ponder for hours xD
Since none of us writing here was never born in the era of Lovecraft, we can't really know if the people back then were truly racist or just very ignorant about these other races. I can see that the regular joe was more likely to be the latter. Lovecraft truly was a real racist though, even compared to his compatriots.
A remarkable thing about Lovecraft is, towards the end of his life, when he was able to go out and really see the world (he began traveling to Florida and Quebec as his social anxiety was better coped with) he began to condemn his earlier, reactionary views, and even called himself a jackass in a letter: "What a complacent, self-assured, egocentric jackass I was in those days! . . . I can the better understand the inert blindness and defiant ignorance of the reactionaries from having been one of them. I know how smugly ignorant I was. . . . It's hard to have done all one's growing up since 33-but that's a damn sight better than not growing up at all." -HPL in a letter to C. L. Moore, February 7 1937 It was also Howard who challenged Lovecraft on his views, and overall helped mold him as a person in his later years.
First off, that's a good point and wonderful to know, thank you for taking the time to comment and letting us know that. :D Secondly - *thank you* for citing the quote source. So rare to see, so appreciated :)
There's a documentary on Lovecrafts life & Work available, they mention his contrition to his previous world views, where he was not only a racist but also xenophobic towards european immigrants too. I think this episode was kind of a shallow explanation to both Robert E. HOward and H.P. Lovecraft work.
@pedro7g5 My main reason for asking is that I'm writing a dissertation on racial coding in fantasy so this could be really useful. Can I ask if you know its name?
"There are a lot of good reasons why you shouldn't publish my stories. If you find a reason you _should,_ no freaking editing. P.S. Your other writers suck, but A for effort I guess." I've been wondering what's wrong with my pitches to publishers, but now it's so clear! Lovecraft sure had the world figured out, huh?
I kind of get it. I’m pretty sure Lovecraft meant that he didn’t want his work sanitized for a general audience. If I was told the only way my stories would get limelight was for them to be butchered beyond recognition I wouldn’t bother.
Alexander Roderick, Love the joke, but the covers were technically not clickbait. What was presented on the cover did make an appearance in literary form.
Lord Strongpike bait-and-switch is when your brought in for one thing and then it isn't there or is swapped to something else. Clickbait, by definition, should be different than clickbait-and-switch.
Fun fact about the covers shown, they were made by a woman named Margaret Brundage. It's a shame that for her work that not even you guys mentioned her.
Finally someone remembered! If I recall she also said Robert E. Howard was her favorite writer, and she eventually stopped doing covers for Weird Magazine sometime after he died. That and I recall pastels being her medium of choice.
And for anyone wondering the art at 6:05 is by a man named Frank Frazetta. He had an iconic style of drawing women and stories and there is a wonderful quote from him about why the extremes in his art are there. Sometimes it's hard to fit everyone into a video. Especially when it isn't a video about them.
parodox22 Oh don't worry about that, you can write Jirel of Joiry as a curse-spitting no-nonsense red-haired warrior woman in sensible armor and have this gem of a mostly misleading cover on the magazine: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Weird_Tales_October_1934.jpg
Lovecraft and Howard once collaborated on a story with three other authors called "Challenge from beyond". Each author wrote a part of the story and passed it on to the next and it really exemplifies the difference in how the two approached their work. The story is basically about a guy who finds a weird old rock that starts doing some supernatural shit to him. Lovecraft then reveals that the rock is actually an alien machine meant to swap the minds of who ever picked it up with that of an alien from a distant world who would then study the world's culture and prepare to conquer it. So now there's a worm alien in the guys body and the guy himself is now trapped in a worm body on an alien world. Howard then writes about how the guy then realized that all the moral codes that restrained him back on earth were really just his own concern for his reputation, and now that everyone he had ever known was gone he had nothing holding him back. So determined to experience life as a worm alien to its fullest he lets go of all hesitation and beats the worm scientists around him to death before running off to kidnap the worm alien's god and become the ruler of that world.
emptank Oh, I remember that story...practically a jam session for the Lovecraft Circle. Anyone who wants to read it can find it in "Nameless Cults", a Robert E Howard collection of all his Lovecraft inspired work.
What I love about Howard's female characters isn't that he made some of them stereotypically heroic, head-chopping shield maidens, but the ones that, despite how hard their position is, don't panic and bravely play their part in their own salvation. A good example of this is Muriela in Jewels of Gwahlur. Despite being in mortal danger, she manages to play an ancient godess convincingly, which helps save both her and Conan.
That's the thing about Howard's work, he definitely had sexism and racism in his novels, but at the same time he would just abandon it at times for the sake of the story. Like in Solomon Kane, he compares Africans to apes and speaks of them as if they are somehow more brutal and animalistic, but at the same time, one of Kane's truest friends and allies is an African shaman, or how the first, and possibly only woman Kane is attracted too is an African woman.
“Here, (Howard) could mash together cultures, places, and historical periods as he wanted” Cue picture of Aku, from Samurai Jack, standing behind a few buildings examples as if he’s just part of the scenery.
Well, Samurai Jack's aesthetic was probably inspired by Howard, wasn't it? It's exactly dark science fantasy, with lost worlds, sorcery, but with a somewhat sci-fi dressing.
Literally true. Gary Gygax was never really into Tolkien, pulp stuff like Conan was more his speed. That's why early D&D has that weird flavor that it does, because he took the set dressing of the Tolkien stuff that was most popular among his peers, but made the core of it crunchy, brutal, and focused on eldritch tombs and evil sorcerers.
A quote to live by: you can greatly admire and be inspired by a person's works and yet still know when to call them out on the questionable conventions they name their cats by
As an avid music fan, i find you often have to adhere the same policy to musicians. People like Chuck Berry and James Brown are so iconic and important and just fun but upon looking at their personal lives its a mess
here is a quote to live by: "people who feel as though they have to constantly publicly acknowledge the thought crimes of great men to appease the cultural zeitgeist, are themselves, fucking losers."
Conan being know for his strength is deep misunderstanding of his character. In many stories he was far from being the strongest man. While he was significantly stronger and tougher than most, what defined him was his presence of mind and swiftness both physically and mentally. That combined with his high aggression potential (as opposed to being an aggressive jackass in general) made him a fierce and focused killing machine.
The writings are kind of inconstant between stories. REH once described Conan as strong enough to pull the arm off a adult bear. I think that would defiantly make him the strongest man around. lol
@@saladinbryant563 ehhhh not when compared to the Servants of Bit-Yakin, or the Devil in iron, Khostra-Kel. To other mortal men, yes he was. To Unatural foes, he was not.
By the way if Extra Credits History ever decides to reprint that ship teacup poster (I think it was for the opium wars), I would love to buy it.... or have it as a Windows background.... I kicked myself for missing it on the DFTBA store.
@@djavanalderromero My sympathies. I don't suffer from that specific malady, thankfully, but I have far too much experience with the strange and disturbing aspects of the REM state.
Combine these things Mom went crazy slightly abusive aunts Constant night terrors Xenophobia Aquaphobia Fear of the unknown Scared of everything outside of Providence Rhode island
One of my favourite things about Lovecraft, is that through his life, he deeply regretted the racism he spewed in his youth. He married a Jewish woman, he publically stated his great shame for stories like Shadow over Innsmouth on account of their racist messages, and his later works have a lot less of that shit tucked between the pages. He was not a perfect man, he had many faults and flaws, but he realized that he had them, and tried to make amends before his death.
CrowSongProductions Another interesting factoid in that vein: Lovecraft also had a literary agent named Julius "Julie" Schwartz throughout his life. 20 years after HPL's death, Schwartz became a leading editor of the Silver Age DC Comics and he dropped Lovecraft's influence into Batman with the help of writer Denny O'Neill. The most obvious example is Arkham Asylum but you also see it in Ra's Al Ghul, a name O'Neill has stated Schwartz came up with...possibly as a homage to Abdul Alhazrad? So Schwartz obviously had fond memories of his old client.
I always wonder what could have become of Lovecraft if he had lived longer. There is a very interesting documentary about him that really helped change my view of how he came to be who he was. He was a social recluse, incredibly scared of the outside world even from a young age. He lived through the books of his grandfather. Some say his xenophobia and rascism is a product of his time, but that is not true. His only contact with society were the books of his grandfather and his family, and moreover, his family was horrible and his early life unhealthy and tragic. He was rather a product of his *grandfathers* time and of mental issues. The man had immense psychological problems of exactly the kind that create a positive feedback loop with his believes. But what is fascinating about him is the change that begun in him when he met his wife. Describing her actually sounds like what one would assume is Lovecrafts worst nightmare. She was a jewish immigrant from Ukraine, a widow with children, open and extroverted, emmancipated and a successful business woman, fashion designer and journalist and a woman that like to travel. He was deathly afraid to even leave his home town. But for her sake he left it and went to New York with her. He hated the place and the melting pot it was was like pouring a constant fuel on the fires of his fears and insecurities and the marriage broke after two years because of financial troubles, spacial seperation and alienation. But the man got better. During his lifetime, he never really got over his xenophobia, but the impact on his work started to shift. It didn't disappear, but knowing all of what happened and all of what he thought I think I can see a slow shift. It seems like his relationship with Sonia initially changes his outlook, but living in New York was too much for him and brought back most of his former fears. But after digesting the seperation and getting back to his known and beloved home I feel like he got a lot better about it. The time after his divorce was marked by a clear downshift in writing output, as was the time after Howards suicide, but I think, as sad as that may be, after every hardship his perspective shifted a little bit. I don't know if he could have ever gotten over it, but I feel he made the most progress when he was at his lowest. I got the feeling he also got a lot more accepting of making money off his work towards the very very end. His friends always tried to convince him but he saw himself as inferior and pathetic, unworthy of mass attention, never publishing some of his best work. Reading all the correspondences and what else we know from the time around his death, I feel like he died before he might have done some of his best and potentially not rasicst work. Some of his friends certainly thought so. He was on the verge of making money and getting recognized. A lot of the process had already started, but the first *real* wave of recognition and and monetary success came shortly after his death. Seeing the progression in his writing skills and his views, as well as his self-acceptance of his work, I can absolutely see him actually writing a novel he is not too deathly ashamed of publishing. Or maybe not. Maybe he would allways have stayed a xenophobe, but it is fun to speculate.
He didn't stay a xenophobe though, he repeatedly expressed sadness and disgust over his intolerance and did earnestly try to make amends towards the end of his life, as far as I'm aware.
Very well said, i only disagree with you on Lovecraft being a recluse, which is a bit oversimplified and a misconception, during his time in New York for example he was a member of a club for whose leader he wrote "Supernatural Literature"(i can't remember all the names though)
After seeing several other channels touch on the subjects of Lovecraft and Howard, I have to commend you for keeping it primarily on the writing and how it influenced the genre rather than beating us over the head every minute with how horrible these writers were as human beings. You touched on it and kept it moving. Well done.
I'm reading Conan stories for the first time, having grown up watching Conan animated series. Reading the first story I already saw the influence of cosmic horror, a term the author actually uses in the story. He describes a dream Conan had where he crawls to dark tunnels with alien symbols where he meats a dead prophet that makes his sword magic. Also a creature/demon that he fights that sounds out of a Lovecraft story. I'm very excited to read the following stories.
In regards to Grimdark. Grimdark is not a genre, it's a descriptor. One born of a marketing slogan to describe the nature of the setting (that it is grim and dark). You can have a Grimdark war story in the future alongside a Grimdark story about modern day crime.
True. However, lots of the most famous examples of works fitting the Grimdark descriptor are sci-fi and fantasy, be it superhero fantasy (The Boys, the DCEU) or classic flavor (Warammer, Dark Souls, Bloodborne).
@@someokiedude9549 "Grimdark" and "Dark Fantasy" have two different meanings. Grimdark is more used as a description of tone, while Dark Fantasy is a loose genre of fiction. Grimdark is more of a tone than a genre. Stories considered grimdark usually have a very serious tone, and often feature gritty characters in a hopeless or extremely dangerous setting, usually going through hellish situations and escaping only with serious damage or huge casualties. Warhammer 40 000 coined the term, but the tone of grimdark has been around for decades, with most war stories featuring this kind of tone in their storytelling. Of course, grimdark fiction treads a very fine line between serious and stupid, and it's very easy to make something dark and gritty for the sake of being dark and gritty. Warhammer 40 000 does this all the time, and even beloved franchises like Game of Thrones stray into this at times. It's from this that we get "Grimderp", stuff that's so dark that it's stupid. Dark Fantasy is broad but ill-defined genre. The label extends from more fantasy-oriented works such as Pan's Labyrinth and Berserk to more horror-oriented stuff like Dracula and Warhammer Fantasy. However, the general consensus, however, is that dark fantasy is fantasy that deals heavily with mature themes, such as psychological illness or trauma, religion or fear of the unknown, and brings these themes together in a fantasy or supernatural setting. This is just me paraphrasing, though. In reality, there's a LOT of discussion about what truly defines Grimdark and Dark Fantasy, both by professionals and by amateurs.
@@someokiedude9549 Dark Fantasy is a genre, Grimdark is a tone. Grimdark is "things can't get better, let's see what happens" while Dark Fantasy is fantasy that explores 'darker' themes, whatever those might be.
I LOVE that you guys have been discussing the pulps. I love researching old pulp stories, and have found nobody on UA-cam does a good job explaining em' quite like y'all do. Keep up the great work!
4:57 "Long ago, in a distant land, I, Aku, the shapeshifting master of darkness unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish samurai warrior stepped forth to oppose..." Yeah, in a place like that, that could totally happen.
Sad part is that most people recognize his name by one of two categories: The Cthulhu or his racism. I recognize him by his writing. His stories, although old, still make my heart tick faster.
You know this is why I love this channel, it may glorify some unknown artist but it never glances over the flaws of these forgotten relics. Keep writing, drawing, or editing extracredits
You mention that Red Sonja is a creation of Howard, but she's actually a 1973 creation of Roy Thomas and Barry Windsor Smith for Marvel Comics. Howard did make a character called "Red Sonya of Rogatino" who served as inspiration for the latter, but they are distinct.
Red Sonja was never depicted clad in a chainmail bikini by Robert E. Howard. She wasn't even in the same setting as Conan. She was later inserted into that setting by Marvel comic book writers. Originally she was a gunslinging Russian warrior.
As a Warhammer fan, the similarity of StarCraft and Warcraft used to bothered me. But it's actually only on a surface level. Only the designes, really. The lore, especially when comparing StarCraft and WH40K, couldn't be further apart.
David Nguyen StarCraft is a total rip off StarshipTroopers, and Warhammer40k is a rip off LoTR, Dune, and also StarshipTroopers. Troopers came up with the Terran empire and powered exoskeletons, and an insectoid race, and also the skinnies which remind a lot of the Protoss.
Warhammer 40K and StarCraft are extremely different. Sure they both have big dudes in power armor and insect baddies. Those are kind of just staples of futuristic fantasy. The atmosphere of the world's are extremely different. StarCraft looks like a daycare compared to 40K
I’m sure you guys at EC have heard of or even worked with Tale Foundry, but for those who are unfamiliar, if you like this series you’ll love their stuff!
Great video! One of the most interesting things about Howard is how good he was at plagiarizing himself and how doing so showed how fickle were the editors of the time as the same story written in different genres or in very similar genres with different character names could be both rejected and accepted by an assortment of editors. Many authors reuse their own ideas in new works, but Howard was truly a genius at the art.
+Jennifer Valentine At one time: Lovecraft grew up in what we would now call 'middle upper class'; he was WASP and was taught since birth via pervasive means that the white race was superior over darker races. It would only be when he moved to Red Hook, NY that he would integrate and finally shed off those views for a more humanist acceptance of minorities.
yes he was I learned many new derogatory terms from Lovecraft and Howard. I think its why you don't see these stories in a lot of main stream media it it entirety
+Maurice Baxter There are archives where Lovecraft's work is copied verbatim but if racism/bigotry bothers you, don't read The Temple. Although it could be easily said that it was masterful narration on Lovecraft's part and doesn't reflect his views.
what another great episode I may not be a fan of Lovecraft but I can not deny his influence in many works that ended up affecting me indirectly and Howard? Howard is my boy I loved too many of his stories in my youth with realizing he was responsible and even now as an adult this episode continues to educate me on him good stuff can't wait for those individual episodes!
Damn. This series is not only fun and mind-nourishing to watch, it's giving me a BIG understanding of where clichés and tropes of our pop culture come from and the very foundations of sci-fi literature! Love it, love it, LOVE IT!
4:57 "Long ago in a distant land, I Aku, the shape-shifting master of darkness..." Thank you Extra Credits for confirming that Samurai Jack and Conan the Barbarian are contemporaries.
I remember one of Matt Colville's videos talking about how the Rogue class in D&D is almost a better depiction of Conan than the Barbarian. He might have liked to smash things with a giant sword when he felt that was practical, but he also liked to outwit his enemies and could carefully search out and disarm traps if the situation called for it.
Lovecraft and Howard are 2 of my favorite authors. Even with the issues they had which sometimes creep into their books I still always enjoy reading the stories they wrote.
I have always read Lovecraft and Howard, so I didn't watch this video before but I preferred watching those others of the series, introducing new authors to me. Now I realize that I like extra credit because it also always give me a new Point of view on everything, which always involves the emergence of new paradigms and mass behaviors. And I love you guys for that.
Love the percentile dice for sanity roll! Last time I played Call of Cthulu, my dice wouldn't roll anything lower than a 90! 🤣 At one point in the game, I even called my roll, "97", then rolled a 97!
Excellent video. You summarize history in a very understandable manner. I appreciate that this video went on to look at the less ideal implications of these two men. Without demonizing the men, it aptly acknowledged their faults and the repercussions of their actions within the context of their time periods. This is how history should be taught.
I'm so, so glad that you guys mentioned the racism and sexism in their works! Whenever I have discussions about these artists, that always gets swept under the table or deemed "irrelevant", as if something so pervasive could have zero effect on the works themselves or the culture that surrounded them.
1:35 Thank you for my new Wallpaper. And also thank you for doing this series. I love it! And I am learning about so many great guys. My to-read pile is growing bigger every episode.
Racism used to be a normal thing back then and while racism is bad, I don't think we should judge the past with today's glasses. Still a great video and also one of the best you have made. Have a good one
Yeah, we get it already. Whenever Lovecraft is discussed the narrator or article writer has to check the box to let you know how "troubling" it was...100 years ago! Almost like they are making sure you don't think they approve. Yes, racism is definitely bad...we get it guys. Lets talk about the stories.
@Extra Credits: You forgot some facts about Lovecraft: Both his parents were congenitally insane. They were possibly cousins, too. They had both spent time being locked into Sanitariums. They both had knife fights with eachother in the Kitchen, before being locked-away again. Howard was taken care of by nannies, and the house staff, mostly. It's in this environment of both deprivation, and sheer terror, is what fueled his writings.Where else could someone come up with the garbled-spittle of such words as: *'Shub Niggorath!* Then, suddenly, after the death of both parents, the family fortune had been spent, and now Howard was on his own. He was forced to live in one of the worst, dire slums of Brooklyn N.Y.: *Redhook....* But that is another story! *_>:|_*
Helpless princesses?? Have you READ any of REH Original works? Those princesses were brave, level headed, smart And capable. Some of his women were damn right formidable: Belit, valeria, sonja. There were female rulers, whose power was challenged and successfully defended. There's even a neutral witch who's among the most powerful of the age. Those damsel in distress characters came from his pastiche writing successors. Conan never forced himself on any woman and made it clear he disapproved of those who did as weak. Women chose him over others. The man had a keener grasp on the sexes than we do.
My favorite Lovecraft homage would probably be Alan Moore’s comic book series ‘Providence’ which covers Lovecraft and his legacy and contribution to horror and dark fantasy but at the same time doesn’t shy away from addressing Lovecraft’s xenophobia and gives us a warts and all portrayal of the man and his legacy in Moore’s story of an NYC reporter who goes to investigate some strange occurrences in New England in the early 20th century and gets far more than he bargained for. A must read for any Lovecraft fans out there.
Lovecrafts views are very well known. I think the attitude is to ignore the racism in favour of the greater message. Not to say that we shouldn't be critical of those negative aspects, just don't allow them to overshadow the positive aspects he brought to the genre. Cast aside the negative and keep the positive.
D .O'H you mean acknowledging the negative aspects as part of the bigger picture? To cast it aside completely just doesn’t seem right here. Though it’s interesting to see how his racism influenced the stories, like how he drew inspiration from his own horror, which to me is quite interesting to see a racist perspective as other than ‘hateful’ but more ‘fearful’ on what he doesn’t understand.
I'd actually say the opposite is the case. So much stuff fixates on condemning him that very little time is spent understanding how his particular neurotic tendencies played into his racism.
DIEGhostfish here I always thought that his neurotic tendencies and his racism played a huge part in his work. I still stand by acknowledging his racist aspect, though not to the point of constantly condemning him about it. His racism is something I perceived to be kinda unique, rather than the most common racism we know are often by people with some sense superiority, lovecraft seemed to be genuinely scared when things go against his perceived beliefs about what people or culture should be(although a very flawed one).
There was SOME sense of superiority but in his "Superiority" side he wasn't much worse than average in the heyday of social Darwinism before Hitler showed the world just where THAT led and the world thankfully recoiled.
The H P Lovecraft Literary Podcast (www.hppodcraft.com) is a pretty great podcast that goes over all of Lovecraft's work with each week dissecting a different story and placing it within the history of Lovecraft's work. After they finish the Lovecraft stuff, they move on to other weird authors that were either contemporaries or who inspired Lovecraft. I recommend anyone interested in weird ficition to check it out.
TOR.com have a "Lovecraft reread" in which Ruthanna Emrys and Anne M. Pillsworth dissect both HPL stories and Mythos-inspired stories. It's a good series, if you don't mind that the articles are inevitably spoilers for the stories they review so if you don't want spoilers make sure to read the story beforehand.
To give an idea how racist Lovecraft was: he was considered racist during his lifetime. Meaning, for the standards of 1900s America, he was still considered pretty racist. He also once wrote an essay on why he likes cats, and used it to take a shot at black people. So, yeah, dude had his race issues. Heck of a writer though.
And he later renounced those views as being unfair, and himself as a 'jackass' for ever expressing them, he married a Jewish woman and repeatedly expressed regret over the bigotry present in his earlier works.
Thank you for bringing up Howard's actual subtext. It was the source of his depression as well as his genius. It hurts that so many people only know of him through the pale imitations that others have made from his characters. Something I've always had mixed feelings about since Howard and his family were screwed out of ownership of his works.
I guess it's somewhat appropriate that the darker elements brought to the horror and fantasy/sci- fi genres would also introduce many of the more distateful elements with, with all the implications it entails, if that makes sense? These dark and brooding worlds with their dark and brooding themes, casting upon themselves elements that were very lurid and questionable themselves, possibly reflecting the views of the world of the time, and echoing over to ours -- like phantoms and poltergeists -- unable, and perhaps unwilling even, to let go. Haunting the minds of the vulnerable, seeping into the empty spaces in our brains, taking root and blooming full with time and effort, god unwilling. In that's just some food for thought, though.
The timing of Lovecraft’s Call of Cthulhu is fascinating. First published in 1928, it was only four years after Edwin Hubble had overturned humanity’s understanding of the size universe. The people living in this time has seen the known size of the universe jump from just the Milky Way galaxy to the exponentially larger, incomprehensible universe we now know. The galaxy we once thought was everything was now one of billions, if not more. Even if this wasn’t a direct inspiration for Lovecraft’s work, the Call of Cthulhu came out to an audience that was witnessing their own cosmic horror as their place in the universe seemed even smaller and more insignificant that ever.
It is nice to look back on such influences and admire their works. And though their are these less than desirable effects, ideas, and troupes from these writers. We must rember that even these ideas can be used to benfit a story. And to teach a lesson of what once was. We should neither refuse or excuse simply accept what was was.
It’s surreal listening to the description of Robert Howard depicting learned strongmen and his love for the occult and esoteric culture mashing, having watched the JoJo’s Bizarre Adventure video Mother’s Basement put out today. This might as well be describing both Phantom Blood and Battle Tendency (which have gotten bad raps from the fanbase as being simplistic and rote), which I maintain that if they had been in the Penny Dreadful and Weird Tales eras of fiction respectively, they would be studied as masterpieces. Just makes me appreciate Lovecraft, Howard, and Araki all the more for their uncanny ability to nail niche storytelling.
In my Weird Fantasy collection, there are some pretty cool stories, my two personal favorites are a story where 18/19 century slavers are themselves captured by aliens to be enslaved, but when the alien cops close in on the alien ship, the slavers are jettisoned out of the airlock to die and dispose of the evidence. The other is a story where a race of unstoppable aliens, which is indestructible, extremely fast, acute senses, and reproduce asexually, lands in a meteor and destroy humanity.
Ok, first one is Weird Fantasy, Volume 2, The Slave Ship. Second on is Weird Fantasy, Volume 2, A Mistake in Multiplication. Also, I confused some elements with other stories. They aren't indestructible, and are captured aboard an abandoned UFO.
Awesome video guys! I also really appreciate that you pointed out the negative aspects of these writers. I love some of H.P. Lovecraft's work, but it's important to acknowledge who he was.
Great episode, Extra Credits! I'm really liking this new series of yours. I hope you keep up with the good work! :D I only have one question, and that is in regards to your comment on the 'damsel in distress' trope. Why do you think it's such a bad thing? I agree that the excessive nudity displayed on the Weird Tales covers didn't help much to give the archetype a good name, but, from what I've studied, this archetype is much more older than the invention of Weird Tales. One needs to look no further than the work of C. G. Jung to find out how expansive and significant the story of the 'damsel in distress' truly is. It's one of the most recurrent themes in cultures across the world (not just the Western ones). And besides, if sexism is what you're worried of, I don't see any reason why you would call this archetype sexist or misogynist. To me, the story has always been one of sacrifice for that which we deeply love and respect (a woman or damsel being just about the perfect symbol to describe that sort of meaning). Anyways, that's just my personal thoughts. I'd love to know what you, guys, think about it. Maybe a really nice and interesting conversation can spring out of this. So with that said, good luck, Extra Credits! I wish you all the best! :)
While there are a few damsels in distress in older stories, they are nowhere near as prevalent as people think they are, and the trope was not only popularized by pulp fiction, but also by silent films and Disney adaptions. In many of the stories the heroines are much more active in the older versions, for example, the Red riding hood manages to flee the wolf by herself in several of the versions, and Cinderella in the original tale planted a tree that gave her the shoes and ballgown, unlike the Disney version where she's simply given it from her fairy godmother. And heroines like Sleeping Beauty and Brunhilde aren't in distress as much as they are merely waiting for the hero to arrive. I have read several books on Greek, Egyptian and Norse mythology and only come across a handfull of real damsels, compared to several dozens of goddesses, queens and sorceresses actively participating in the plot. In fact, one of the oldest myths recorded features the Sumerian goddess Inanna traveling to the underworld to bring back her dead husband Dumuzid. The reason the damsel in distress trope has been critiqued by both men and women is that it presents women as passive and unable to take care of themselves, and that dropping everything for a woman he's barely even seen is a normal and reasonable thing for a man to do.
Gertrud Bondesson I agree that portraying women as passive and unable beings is a bad thing. However, given the allegorical nature of most folktales (and of the old Disney films as well), I wouldn't interpret these tales these tales as statements on the abilities of women, but rather stories of situations where the different elements of the psyche, as Jung called it, are at play. From a Jungian perspective (the one that is most often to analyze the meanings of myth and legend), characters do not represent a group of society but a trait or tendency of each individual, which will be given their connotation as either beneficial or damaging according to the events that play out in the narrative. Take for instance the tale of Sleeping Beauty. Here, the character of Aurora does not represent all females but rather a certain childish yet pure and delightful idleness that exists in all of us, be it male or female. The fact that Aurora is decieved by Maleficent does not mean that all female are stupid or incapable of distinguishing good from bad. Far from that, it means that people, regardless of their sex, need to be aware of their own idleness in order to not fall prey to the evils in this world. But if they do so, they'll need another part of the psyche to save them. This is represented in the form of Prince Philip, who in symbologicak terms would be the blunt instinct we possess that allow us to make a switch and wake up to reality. Now, there's also a reason why the two roles are distributed between the genders, yet unlike to what some have said, it is not because one of the genders is better than the other. To the contrary, each of the two genders complements the others, thus stating that if an individual is able to use both of these attributes to their psyche, then he or she will succeed in vanishing the evil that lies within him or her. I hope that makes sense. Sorry if I was too cofusing. All the same, thanks, Gertrude for your feedback and response. I very much appreciate it. Have a nice weekend! EDIT: I almost forgot to mention that if you have any doubts about what I just wrote above, you should take a look at the UA-cam channel "Academy of Ideas". It has a great video explaining the concept of Jungian psychology. I'm just warning, though, if you love philosophy and deep ideas, you're gonna love it. :D Cheers! And good luck!
The channel you mentioned seems interesting, though I've only seen one video so far, thanks for the tip. While Jung had many interesting ideas, he was also a man of his time and open to the biases of the society he lived in. Furthermore I question the notion that folktales were constructed as allegorical representations of the psyche, considering their oral nature and the fact that they were originally meant to be told in front of a live audience. Most of the elements of the folktales come from the wish to entertain (heroes fighting monsters, daring escapes and swashbuckling) as well as teach children morals (thieves and liars getting punished) rather than any deliberate symbolism and allegories. And unlike written books, oral folktales do not have a single creator and have been changed multiple times over the centuries, some versions directly conflicting with each other. For example, in one of the older versions of Sleeping Beauty, she doesn't awake when the prince arrives, instead the prince rapes her in her sleep and leaves. Sleeping Beauty later gives birth to a child, without waking up, and it is only when the child crawls over her body and sucks out the needle from her finger that she wakes up, a completely different ending, since it isn't a strong prince but an oblivious infant that awakens her. Many other folktales have been similarly bowdlerized, such as Cinderella forgiving her wicked stepmother and ending the story on a note of peace and forgiveness, whereas several older versions ends with a flock of birds magically appearing and pecking out the stepmother and stepsisters eyes as punishment for their cruelty. In one Egyptian version Cinderella doesn't even have any abusive stepparents at all, instead it starts with a bird stealing her shoe and dropping it in front of a young Pharaoh who wows to find the woman the shoe fits. I also think using old folktales is a poor excuse for using one-dimensional damsels in modern storytelling, since higher literacy as well as a broader range of entertainment to choose from means that the average audience has higher demands from their entertainment, and while the critique of damsels is the the most prominent aspect of this, several other tropes, such as a flawless one-dimensional hero, monsters that suddenly appear without explanation or characters dying gruesomely as punishment for small slights are often considered outdated and changed for modern adaptions.
As someone who is both awful at writing and enjoys making quick light hearted adventure tales, I would LOVE to hear what sort of expletives Lovecraft would use in describing my stuff haha
Was expecting a detailed talk about lovecraft's stories, but the history regarding the magazine he wrote for is interesting as well. However the last few episodes of extra sci-fi feels more like an extra history about sci-fi rather than the genre itself.
Fun fact: "The Shadow Over Innsmouth", a story in which a man discovers he is descended from vile and horrible creatures with fish-like faces was written soon after Lovecraft found out that his grandmother was Welsh.
Pulp magazine "Weird Tales" introduced truly cosmic horror to sci fi and fantasy, but it also left a legacy of some of the more troubling elements still lingering in the genre.
Do an Extra Credits on Welcome To Night Vale.
Also, I’m baffled as to why there isn’t already an Extra History on the Napoleonic Wars
I agree that we need napoleanic wars
Nice Aku Easter egg
Are you likely to touch on Stanisław Lem? The Cyberiad is a different kind of weird from these, but it's definitely a something.
I still own some of the magazines from Weird Tales.
Still love reading through them, but those very prickly tropes of racism and "damsel in distress" featured in them always make me stop and ponder for hours xD
"my work sucks. you have no right to judge my work. all of your writers are terrible." yep! that's Lovecraft!
And yet we all keep coming back to his primal horrors.
Part of me imagines him has Chris Chan but wealthier and actually has decent writing skills and articulation.
You forgot the screaming racist part
Since none of us writing here was never born in the era of Lovecraft, we can't really know if the people back then were truly racist or just very ignorant about these other races. I can see that the regular joe was more likely to be the latter. Lovecraft truly was a real racist though, even compared to his compatriots.
@@powerist209 Nah, Lovecraft would try to stay in the shadows
Imagine buying a magazine expecting something erotic like the cover only to be greeted with an H.P Lovecraft story
And so what you pig?lovecraft is horor's god
That's probably how certain fetishes and fanfics started.
@@DarkAngelEU "I surely do want to read some yur- oh its tentacles."
There is a game about that now
@@DarkAngelEU we figured out hentai boys
A remarkable thing about Lovecraft is, towards the end of his life, when he was able to go out and really see the world (he began traveling to Florida and Quebec as his social anxiety was better coped with) he began to condemn his earlier, reactionary views, and even called himself a jackass in a letter:
"What a complacent, self-assured, egocentric jackass I was in those days! . . . I can the better understand the inert blindness and defiant ignorance of the reactionaries from having been one of them. I know how smugly ignorant I was. . . . It's hard to have done all one's growing up since 33-but that's a damn sight better than not growing up at all."
-HPL in a letter to C. L. Moore, February 7 1937
It was also Howard who challenged Lovecraft on his views, and overall helped mold him as a person in his later years.
First off, that's a good point and wonderful to know, thank you for taking the time to comment and letting us know that. :D Secondly - *thank you* for citing the quote source. So rare to see, so appreciated :)
Well that's nice to know
Hey, can I ask if you have a source on that?
There's a documentary on Lovecrafts life & Work available, they mention his contrition to his previous world views, where he was not only a racist but also xenophobic towards european immigrants too.
I think this episode was kind of a shallow explanation to both Robert E. HOward and H.P. Lovecraft work.
@pedro7g5
My main reason for asking is that I'm writing a dissertation on racial coding in fantasy so this could be really useful. Can I ask if you know its name?
"There are a lot of good reasons why you shouldn't publish my stories. If you find a reason you _should,_ no freaking editing.
P.S. Your other writers suck, but A for effort I guess."
I've been wondering what's wrong with my pitches to publishers, but now it's so clear! Lovecraft sure had the world figured out, huh?
😂😂😂😂👍
Goes to show confidence is everything
I kind of get it. I’m pretty sure Lovecraft meant that he didn’t want his work sanitized for a general audience. If I was told the only way my stories would get limelight was for them to be butchered beyond recognition I wouldn’t bother.
"I suck! Maybe publish me. Don't change my garbage if you do. Everyone else sucks too, but at least they tried."
Weird Tales. Innovators of the clickbait thumbnail.
Alexander Roderick An invention that is much regretted by anyone who are not in the business
Alexander Roderick, Love the joke, but the covers were technically not clickbait. What was presented on the cover did make an appearance in literary form.
Lord Strongpike bait-and-switch is when your brought in for one thing and then it isn't there or is swapped to something else. Clickbait, by definition, should be different than clickbait-and-switch.
yup
Fun fact about the covers shown, they were made by a woman named Margaret Brundage. It's a shame that for her work that not even you guys mentioned her.
Finally someone remembered! If I recall she also said Robert E. Howard was her favorite writer, and she eventually stopped doing covers for Weird Magazine sometime after he died. That and I recall pastels being her medium of choice.
And for anyone wondering the art at 6:05 is by a man named Frank Frazetta. He had an iconic style of drawing women and stories and there is a wonderful quote from him about why the extremes in his art are there. Sometimes it's hard to fit everyone into a video. Especially when it isn't a video about them.
No CL Moore either despite being in the Weird Tales cover from last episode, and her tales straddled both fantasy and cosmic horror...
parodox22 Oh don't worry about that, you can write Jirel of Joiry as a curse-spitting no-nonsense red-haired warrior woman in sensible armor and have this gem of a mostly misleading cover on the magazine: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Weird_Tales_October_1934.jpg
Internalized Misogyny is still sexism.
Lovecraft and Howard once collaborated on a story with three other authors called "Challenge from beyond". Each author wrote a part of the story and passed it on to the next and it really exemplifies the difference in how the two approached their work.
The story is basically about a guy who finds a weird old rock that starts doing some supernatural shit to him. Lovecraft then reveals that the rock is actually an alien machine meant to swap the minds of who ever picked it up with that of an alien from a distant world who would then study the world's culture and prepare to conquer it. So now there's a worm alien in the guys body and the guy himself is now trapped in a worm body on an alien world.
Howard then writes about how the guy then realized that all the moral codes that restrained him back on earth were really just his own concern for his reputation, and now that everyone he had ever known was gone he had nothing holding him back. So determined to experience life as a worm alien to its fullest he lets go of all hesitation and beats the worm scientists around him to death before running off to kidnap the worm alien's god and become the ruler of that world.
emptank Oh, I remember that story...practically a jam session for the Lovecraft Circle. Anyone who wants to read it can find it in "Nameless Cults", a Robert E Howard collection of all his Lovecraft inspired work.
And them some other writer whose name I don't recall had the unenviable task of writing a reasonable conclusion.
I found the sudden tone shift from "I'm in a alien body!?!AAGGHhhhh" to "Oh wait never mind this is AWESOME" pretty hilarious actually.
@@Newfiecat 😂😂😂😂😂😂👍
This story is dope as hell
What I love about Howard's female characters isn't that he made some of them stereotypically heroic, head-chopping shield maidens, but the ones that, despite how hard their position is, don't panic and bravely play their part in their own salvation.
A good example of this is Muriela in Jewels of Gwahlur. Despite being in mortal danger, she manages to play an ancient godess convincingly, which helps save both her and Conan.
That's the thing about Howard's work, he definitely had sexism and racism in his novels, but at the same time he would just abandon it at times for the sake of the story. Like in Solomon Kane, he compares Africans to apes and speaks of them as if they are somehow more brutal and animalistic, but at the same time, one of Kane's truest friends and allies is an African shaman, or how the first, and possibly only woman Kane is attracted too is an African woman.
Poor Robert Howard. "Why do you write like you're running out of time?"
i agree and Lovecraft done lot Sci Fi look at aliens
Writing day and night like you're running out of time.
Sadly, he was.
Dylan Chouinard Misery...
@@soygato2722 r a c I s m a n d c l a s s i s m
“Here, (Howard) could mash together cultures, places, and historical periods as he wanted”
Cue picture of Aku, from Samurai Jack, standing behind a few buildings examples as if he’s just part of the scenery.
Well, Samurai Jack's aesthetic was probably inspired by Howard, wasn't it? It's exactly dark science fantasy, with lost worlds, sorcery, but with a somewhat sci-fi dressing.
I agree lol! i've seen that too right at that moment! samurai Jack is one of my favorites
"Hey, how's it going. Seen any foolish samurai warriors lately? No? 'S'cool."
Samurai Jack is sword & sorcery too as far as I can tell, with a warrior main hero on a quest to slay an evil wizard in a harsh and unforgiving world.
Oh, that wasn’t why I pointed it out. I mean, it’s a cool acknowledgement but I pointed it out because it shows Aku as a **set piece**
Robert E. Howard's suicide destroyed Lovecraft, which quickened his death from cancer not long after.
It's too bad both of them had such sad, short lives, but I suppose Lovecraft's writing wouldn't have happened the same any other way.
ya but if you read Lovecraft his best work was his last ones, and it was only around Call of Cthulhu that his horror became Lovecraftian.
@@coastersplusi suppose if you write the stuff lovecraft did you might not want to live as much as you used to
Weird Tales magazine: *Sigh* we can't get any good spooky stories
Lovecraft: Hold my eldritch horror
KishinAkenm WT magazine: Argh! My hands! My face! They are melting! THIS IS PERFECT!!!
Howard turned Sword and Sorcery from Three Musketeers to Dungeons and Dragons
No, there is still a large divide between Conan's Pulp Fantasy, 70's-90's fantasy, and 2000's fantasy.
Literally true. Gary Gygax was never really into Tolkien, pulp stuff like Conan was more his speed. That's why early D&D has that weird flavor that it does, because he took the set dressing of the Tolkien stuff that was most popular among his peers, but made the core of it crunchy, brutal, and focused on eldritch tombs and evil sorcerers.
A quote to live by: you can greatly admire and be inspired by a person's works and yet still know when to call them out on the questionable conventions they name their cats by
As an avid music fan, i find you often have to adhere the same policy to musicians. People like Chuck Berry and James Brown are so iconic and important and just fun but upon looking at their personal lives its a mess
The Cat is the least racist thing in the Mythos.
Nigerman truly is a name that only a shitpost can give. Lovecraft was the final shitposter of his time
here is a quote to live by: "people who feel as though they have to constantly publicly acknowledge the thought crimes of great men to appease the cultural zeitgeist, are themselves, fucking losers."
@@DarrinSK
Nah
Conan being know for his strength is deep misunderstanding of his character. In many stories he was far from being the strongest man. While he was significantly stronger and tougher than most, what defined him was his presence of mind and swiftness both physically and mentally. That combined with his high aggression potential (as opposed to being an aggressive jackass in general) made him a fierce and focused killing machine.
The writings are kind of inconstant between stories. REH once described Conan as strong enough to pull the arm off a adult bear. I think that would defiantly make him the strongest man around. lol
@@saladinbryant563 ehhhh not when compared to the Servants of Bit-Yakin, or the Devil in iron, Khostra-Kel. To other mortal men, yes he was. To Unatural foes, he was not.
I really really like the theme music for Extra Sci Fi.... it is peaceful and mysterious and techno and well done. I wish it was a bit longer.
It reminds me of the Mass Effect galaxy map music
By the way if Extra Credits History ever decides to reprint that ship teacup poster (I think it was for the opium wars), I would love to buy it.... or have it as a Windows background.... I kicked myself for missing it on the DFTBA store.
“All fled all done, so lift me on the pyre. The feast is over and the lamps expire” Robert E Howard’s suicide note.
Lovecraft here looks like he’s seen the shit he writes about.
He had, sort of. Most of the truly scary stuff in his stories was picked directly from his dreams. The guy had the _worst_ nightmares.
Also sleep paralysis, which involves hallucinations. Not fun.
@@brigidtheirish yeah i see my sleep paralysis in his writing. At least the feeling and the visuals
@@djavanalderromero My sympathies. I don't suffer from that specific malady, thankfully, but I have far too much experience with the strange and disturbing aspects of the REM state.
Combine these things
Mom went crazy
slightly abusive aunts
Constant night terrors
Xenophobia
Aquaphobia
Fear of the unknown
Scared of everything outside of Providence Rhode island
One of my favourite things about Lovecraft, is that through his life, he deeply regretted the racism he spewed in his youth. He married a Jewish woman, he publically stated his great shame for stories like Shadow over Innsmouth on account of their racist messages, and his later works have a lot less of that shit tucked between the pages. He was not a perfect man, he had many faults and flaws, but he realized that he had them, and tried to make amends before his death.
CrowSongProductions Another interesting factoid in that vein: Lovecraft also had a literary agent named Julius "Julie" Schwartz throughout his life. 20 years after HPL's death, Schwartz became a leading editor of the Silver Age DC Comics and he dropped Lovecraft's influence into Batman with the help of writer Denny O'Neill. The most obvious example is Arkham Asylum but you also see it in Ra's Al Ghul, a name O'Neill has stated Schwartz came up with...possibly as a homage to Abdul Alhazrad? So Schwartz obviously had fond memories of his old client.
No matter how racist or bigoted he was, that just adds all of the reasons to like his work.
We are racist just on different lvls. Who cares haha
I always wonder what could have become of Lovecraft if he had lived longer. There is a very interesting documentary about him that really helped change my view of how he came to be who he was. He was a social recluse, incredibly scared of the outside world even from a young age. He lived through the books of his grandfather. Some say his xenophobia and rascism is a product of his time, but that is not true. His only contact with society were the books of his grandfather and his family, and moreover, his family was horrible and his early life unhealthy and tragic. He was rather a product of his *grandfathers* time and of mental issues.
The man had immense psychological problems of exactly the kind that create a positive feedback loop with his believes. But what is fascinating about him is the change that begun in him when he met his wife. Describing her actually sounds like what one would assume is Lovecrafts worst nightmare. She was a jewish immigrant from Ukraine, a widow with children, open and extroverted, emmancipated and a successful business woman, fashion designer and journalist and a woman that like to travel. He was deathly afraid to even leave his home town. But for her sake he left it and went to New York with her. He hated the place and the melting pot it was was like pouring a constant fuel on the fires of his fears and insecurities and the marriage broke after two years because of financial troubles, spacial seperation and alienation.
But the man got better. During his lifetime, he never really got over his xenophobia, but the impact on his work started to shift. It didn't disappear, but knowing all of what happened and all of what he thought I think I can see a slow shift. It seems like his relationship with Sonia initially changes his outlook, but living in New York was too much for him and brought back most of his former fears. But after digesting the seperation and getting back to his known and beloved home I feel like he got a lot better about it. The time after his divorce was marked by a clear downshift in writing output, as was the time after Howards suicide, but I think, as sad as that may be, after every hardship his perspective shifted a little bit. I don't know if he could have ever gotten over it, but I feel he made the most progress when he was at his lowest. I got the feeling he also got a lot more accepting of making money off his work towards the very very end. His friends always tried to convince him but he saw himself as inferior and pathetic, unworthy of mass attention, never publishing some of his best work.
Reading all the correspondences and what else we know from the time around his death, I feel like he died before he might have done some of his best and potentially not rasicst work. Some of his friends certainly thought so. He was on the verge of making money and getting recognized. A lot of the process had already started, but the first *real* wave of recognition and and monetary success came shortly after his death. Seeing the progression in his writing skills and his views, as well as his self-acceptance of his work, I can absolutely see him actually writing a novel he is not too deathly ashamed of publishing.
Or maybe not. Maybe he would allways have stayed a xenophobe, but it is fun to speculate.
He didn't stay a xenophobe though, he repeatedly expressed sadness and disgust over his intolerance and did earnestly try to make amends towards the end of his life, as far as I'm aware.
he was a product of his time
Very well said, i only disagree with you on Lovecraft being a recluse, which is a bit oversimplified and a misconception, during his time in New York for example he was a member of a club for whose leader he wrote "Supernatural Literature"(i can't remember all the names though)
After seeing several other channels touch on the subjects of Lovecraft and Howard, I have to commend you for keeping it primarily on the writing and how it influenced the genre rather than beating us over the head every minute with how horrible these writers were as human beings. You touched on it and kept it moving. Well done.
"Pop consciousness"
Can we appreciate this term for a second
I hear zombie movies do it a lot.
Can we appreciate it _forever_
Unintentional Victoria 2 reference?
Like a lay term variation for the Jungian “collective unconscious”.
Millennials discover Jung.
I'm reading Conan stories for the first time, having grown up watching Conan animated series. Reading the first story I already saw the influence of cosmic horror, a term the author actually uses in the story. He describes a dream Conan had where he crawls to dark tunnels with alien symbols where he meats a dead prophet that makes his sword magic.
Also a creature/demon that he fights that sounds out of a Lovecraft story.
I'm very excited to read the following stories.
If your watching in 2023, it is the 100th anniversary of Weird Tales Magazine.
In regards to Grimdark. Grimdark is not a genre, it's a descriptor. One born of a marketing slogan to describe the nature of the setting (that it is grim and dark). You can have a Grimdark war story in the future alongside a Grimdark story about modern day crime.
True. However, lots of the most famous examples of works fitting the Grimdark descriptor are sci-fi and fantasy, be it superhero fantasy (The Boys, the DCEU) or classic flavor (Warammer, Dark Souls, Bloodborne).
It’s quite derogatory if you asked me. I prefer the term dark fantasy.
@@someokiedude9549 "Grimdark" and "Dark Fantasy" have two different meanings. Grimdark is more used as a description of tone, while Dark Fantasy is a loose genre of fiction.
Grimdark is more of a tone than a genre. Stories considered grimdark usually have a very serious tone, and often feature gritty characters in a hopeless or extremely dangerous setting, usually going through hellish situations and escaping only with serious damage or huge casualties. Warhammer 40 000 coined the term, but the tone of grimdark has been around for decades, with most war stories featuring this kind of tone in their storytelling.
Of course, grimdark fiction treads a very fine line between serious and stupid, and it's very easy to make something dark and gritty for the sake of being dark and gritty. Warhammer 40 000 does this all the time, and even beloved franchises like Game of Thrones stray into this at times. It's from this that we get "Grimderp", stuff that's so dark that it's stupid.
Dark Fantasy is broad but ill-defined genre. The label extends from more fantasy-oriented works such as Pan's Labyrinth and Berserk to more horror-oriented stuff like Dracula and Warhammer Fantasy. However, the general consensus, however, is that dark fantasy is fantasy that deals heavily with mature themes, such as psychological illness or trauma, religion or fear of the unknown, and brings these themes together in a fantasy or supernatural setting.
This is just me paraphrasing, though. In reality, there's a LOT of discussion about what truly defines Grimdark and Dark Fantasy, both by professionals and by amateurs.
@@someokiedude9549 Dark Fantasy is a genre, Grimdark is a tone. Grimdark is "things can't get better, let's see what happens" while Dark Fantasy is fantasy that explores 'darker' themes, whatever those might be.
I LOVE that you guys have been discussing the pulps. I love researching old pulp stories, and have found nobody on UA-cam does a good job explaining em' quite like y'all do. Keep up the great work!
4:57 "Long ago, in a distant land, I, Aku, the shapeshifting master of darkness unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish samurai warrior stepped forth to oppose..."
Yeah, in a place like that, that could totally happen.
You missed a bit "A Foolish samurai warrior, wielding a magic sword, stepped forth to oppose me..." I got you chief.
I actually kind of like the tropes Howard helped establish. I just find them fun.
Exactly, but these days, we can't have anything that so much as hints at anything deemed sinful by the self appointed arbiters of culture.
Also, chainmail bikinis weren't invented till the seventies, but I guess that could have been figurative language on your part.
Thank you for mentioning this! If anyone had dared to show the Sonya of Howard's books a chain mail bikini she would have laughed out loud.
Sad part is that most people recognize his name by one of two categories: The Cthulhu or his racism. I recognize him by his writing. His stories, although old, still make my heart tick faster.
You know this is why I love this channel, it may glorify some unknown artist but it never glances over the flaws of these forgotten relics.
Keep writing, drawing, or editing extracredits
You mention that Red Sonja is a creation of Howard, but she's actually a 1973 creation of Roy Thomas and Barry Windsor Smith for Marvel Comics. Howard did make a character called "Red Sonya of Rogatino" who served as inspiration for the latter, but they are distinct.
Also, Howard's Red Sonya was a 16th century Cossack. The chainmail bikini thing is 100% Marvel.
showing that at one point Marvel could do things right
Sonya Rogatino would be a much more interesting character. And the story (Shadow of the Vulture) is probably the best of REH's historical fictions.
Wrong...
Red Sonja was never depicted clad in a chainmail bikini by Robert E. Howard. She wasn't even in the same setting as Conan. She was later inserted into that setting by Marvel comic book writers. Originally she was a gunslinging Russian warrior.
Whoever wrote that original story for her did a pretty good job though. It sounds like it would fit well in Hyperborea.
4:45 That should be "North Wind", not "West Wind".
"Greetings from Arkham" GG Extra Sci-fi.
Oh Ya! My favorite HoTS character Sonya just got more interesting.
Yup. Blizzard loves to reference other works in their games. Just look how similar StarCraft and WarCraft are to the Warhammer franchise
As a Warhammer fan, the similarity of StarCraft and Warcraft used to bothered me. But it's actually only on a surface level. Only the designes, really. The lore, especially when comparing StarCraft and WH40K, couldn't be further apart.
David Nguyen StarCraft is a total rip off StarshipTroopers, and Warhammer40k is a rip off LoTR, Dune, and also StarshipTroopers. Troopers came up with the Terran empire and powered exoskeletons, and an insectoid race, and also the skinnies which remind a lot of the Protoss.
Warhammer 40K and StarCraft are extremely different. Sure they both have big dudes in power armor and insect baddies. Those are kind of just staples of futuristic fantasy. The atmosphere of the world's are extremely different. StarCraft looks like a daycare compared to 40K
Scavenger Oh LoTR and Dune are just ripping off of Hercules which is just a shitty knock off of the epic of Gilgamesh
I’m sure you guys at EC have heard of or even worked with Tale Foundry, but for those who are unfamiliar, if you like this series you’ll love their stuff!
This was the episode I was looking forward to most. Thanks kindly for doing it!
"Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu."
Translation: "In his house at R'lyeh dead Cthulhu waits dreaming."
Great video! One of the most interesting things about Howard is how good he was at plagiarizing himself and how doing so showed how fickle were the editors of the time as the same story written in different genres or in very similar genres with different character names could be both rejected and accepted by an assortment of editors. Many authors reuse their own ideas in new works, but Howard was truly a genius at the art.
Love him, but racist as hell. Read all his works too. Really is the foundation of my favorite game, Bloodborne
+Jennifer Valentine
At one time: Lovecraft grew up in what we would now call 'middle upper class'; he was WASP and was taught since birth via pervasive means that the white race was superior over darker races. It would only be when he moved to Red Hook, NY that he would integrate and finally shed off those views for a more humanist acceptance of minorities.
yes he was I learned many new derogatory terms from Lovecraft and Howard. I think its why you don't see these stories in a lot of main stream media it it entirety
+Maurice Baxter
There are archives where Lovecraft's work is copied verbatim but if racism/bigotry bothers you, don't read The Temple. Although it could be easily said that it was masterful narration on Lovecraft's part and doesn't reflect his views.
True he was racist and then later he realized how foolish he was and regrets it
+xochi
He realized he was in the wrong and admitted it. Can't hate him for that. If anything, I respect him for it.
I'm just going to say, thanks to you guys, I discovered Lovecraft a few years ago. Thank you so much 💕
Lovecraft is my favorite author of all time. I'm not kidding, I have most of his works.
Howard is legitimately one of my top 5 Authors. His action sequences and ability to combine the historical with the fantastical is unmatched
what another great episode I may not be a fan of Lovecraft but I can not deny his influence in many works that ended up affecting me indirectly and Howard? Howard is my boy I loved too many of his stories in my youth with realizing he was responsible and even now as an adult this episode continues to educate me on him good stuff can't wait for those individual episodes!
Damn. This series is not only fun and mind-nourishing to watch, it's giving me a BIG understanding of where clichés and tropes of our pop culture come from and the very foundations of sci-fi literature! Love it, love it, LOVE IT!
4:57 "Long ago in a distant land, I Aku, the shape-shifting master of darkness..."
Thank you Extra Credits for confirming that Samurai Jack and Conan the Barbarian are contemporaries.
I remember one of Matt Colville's videos talking about how the Rogue class in D&D is almost a better depiction of Conan than the Barbarian. He might have liked to smash things with a giant sword when he felt that was practical, but he also liked to outwit his enemies and could carefully search out and disarm traps if the situation called for it.
Howard's red sonja was a pistol packing inquisitor more a kind to a 40k hero then chainmail bikini heroine.
Lovecraft and Howard are 2 of my favorite authors. Even with the issues they had which sometimes creep into their books I still always enjoy reading the stories they wrote.
*Gimme Five*
*all five...*
I have always read Lovecraft and Howard, so I didn't watch this video before but I preferred watching those others of the series, introducing new authors to me. Now I realize that I like extra credit because it also always give me a new Point of view on everything, which always involves the emergence of new paradigms and mass behaviors. And I love you guys for that.
As a giant Mike Mignola fan I approve of this episode :D
Rober E Howard was a genius- a man ahead of his time.
Great video! Hyperborea is actually the land beyond (huper) the north wind (Boreas).
For the last year have been reading the collection of Conan short stories while also at times playing the Conan MMO casually.
Love the percentile dice for sanity roll! Last time I played Call of Cthulu, my dice wouldn't roll anything lower than a 90! 🤣 At one point in the game, I even called my roll, "97", then rolled a 97!
I literally have my Lovecraft essay due tomorrow. Thanks for the ideas guys!
Excellent video. You summarize history in a very understandable manner. I appreciate that this video went on to look at the less ideal implications of these two men. Without demonizing the men, it aptly acknowledged their faults and the repercussions of their actions within the context of their time periods. This is how history should be taught.
EC covering my favorite genres of fiction. Stoked for next week!
"A Singular Strike!" for Extra Credits/Sci Fi
I'm so, so glad that you guys mentioned the racism and sexism in their works! Whenever I have discussions about these artists, that always gets swept under the table or deemed "irrelevant", as if something so pervasive could have zero effect on the works themselves or the culture that surrounded them.
_Lovecraft is a master of horror indeed. He does have a vision of the other side of horror..._
Shout out to the artist for this episode! I kept pausing so I wouldn't miss the little details. Great job!
DID SOMEONE SAY GRIMDARK!
HAIL THE EMPRA
Why no mention of our God Emprah? HERESAH!!!
How Grim. Thier days must be dark.
G R I M D A R K
In the enlightened brightness of the near future, there are only rainbows
1:35 Thank you for my new Wallpaper. And also thank you for doing this series. I love it! And I am learning about so many great guys. My to-read pile is growing bigger every episode.
"weird tales", also known as "the magical adventures of Howard & Howard"
Nice Samurai Jack homage at 4:57, very much appreciated
Racism used to be a normal thing back then and while racism is bad, I don't think we should judge the past with today's glasses. Still a great video and also one of the best you have made. Have a good one
While that is definitely true, Lovecraft was considered racist by people from his time.
Yeah, we get it already. Whenever Lovecraft is discussed the narrator or article writer has to check the box to let you know how "troubling" it was...100 years ago! Almost like they are making sure you don't think they approve. Yes, racism is definitely bad...we get it guys. Lets talk about the stories.
So to be a creative you must either be crazy enough to succeed
Or follow closely in their footsteps
@Extra Credits:
You forgot some facts about Lovecraft:
Both his parents were congenitally insane. They were possibly cousins, too. They had both spent time being locked into Sanitariums. They both had knife fights with eachother in the Kitchen, before being locked-away again.
Howard was taken care of by nannies, and the house staff, mostly. It's in this environment of both deprivation, and sheer terror, is what fueled his writings.Where else could someone come up with the garbled-spittle of such words as: *'Shub Niggorath!*
Then, suddenly, after the death of both parents, the family fortune had been spent, and now Howard was on his own. He was forced to live in one of the worst, dire slums of Brooklyn N.Y.: *Redhook....*
But that is another story! *_>:|_*
1:47
I can hear the narrator from the Darkest Dungeon games/Audio Lovecraft novels telling me this and it's wonderful
Helpless princesses?? Have you READ any of REH Original works? Those princesses were brave, level headed, smart And capable. Some of his women were damn right formidable: Belit, valeria, sonja. There were female rulers, whose power was challenged and successfully defended. There's even a neutral witch who's among the most powerful of the age. Those damsel in distress characters came from his pastiche writing successors. Conan never forced himself on any woman and made it clear he disapproved of those who did as weak. Women chose him over others. The man had a keener grasp on the sexes than we do.
@A Aron I agree.
My favorite Lovecraft homage would probably be Alan Moore’s comic book series ‘Providence’ which covers Lovecraft and his legacy and contribution to horror and dark fantasy but at the same time doesn’t shy away from addressing Lovecraft’s xenophobia and gives us a warts and all portrayal of the man and his legacy in Moore’s story of an NYC reporter who goes to investigate some strange occurrences in New England in the early 20th century and gets far more than he bargained for.
A must read for any Lovecraft fans out there.
It's refreshing to me that you acknowledge the negatives of Lovecraft and Weird Tales, so many brush over any negative aspects of these stories.
Lovecrafts views are very well known. I think the attitude is to ignore the racism in favour of the greater message. Not to say that we shouldn't be critical of those negative aspects, just don't allow them to overshadow the positive aspects he brought to the genre. Cast aside the negative and keep the positive.
D .O'H you mean acknowledging the negative aspects as part of the bigger picture? To cast it aside completely just doesn’t seem right here. Though it’s interesting to see how his racism influenced the stories, like how he drew inspiration from his own horror, which to me is quite interesting to see a racist perspective as other than ‘hateful’ but more ‘fearful’ on what he doesn’t understand.
I'd actually say the opposite is the case. So much stuff fixates on condemning him that very little time is spent understanding how his particular neurotic tendencies played into his racism.
DIEGhostfish here I always thought that his neurotic tendencies and his racism played a huge part in his work. I still stand by acknowledging his racist aspect, though not to the point of constantly condemning him about it. His racism is something I perceived to be kinda unique, rather than the most common racism we know are often by people with some sense superiority, lovecraft seemed to be genuinely scared when things go against his perceived beliefs about what people or culture should be(although a very flawed one).
There was SOME sense of superiority but in his "Superiority" side he wasn't much worse than average in the heyday of social Darwinism before Hitler showed the world just where THAT led and the world thankfully recoiled.
Great film about Robert Howard's life.
"The Whole Wide World" starring Vincent D'Onofrio. 😎
The H P Lovecraft Literary Podcast (www.hppodcraft.com) is a pretty great podcast that goes over all of Lovecraft's work with each week dissecting a different story and placing it within the history of Lovecraft's work. After they finish the Lovecraft stuff, they move on to other weird authors that were either contemporaries or who inspired Lovecraft. I recommend anyone interested in weird ficition to check it out.
TOR.com have a "Lovecraft reread" in which Ruthanna Emrys and Anne M. Pillsworth dissect both HPL stories and Mythos-inspired stories. It's a good series, if you don't mind that the articles are inevitably spoilers for the stories they review so if you don't want spoilers make sure to read the story beforehand.
Great work, as always. Please keep it up. This channel is so sorely needed.
To show you the power of Flex tape! I woke up Azathoth in half!
Cant wait for the deep dive on lovecraft. Really love this series, please keep it up!
To give an idea how racist Lovecraft was: he was considered racist during his lifetime. Meaning, for the standards of 1900s America, he was still considered pretty racist. He also once wrote an essay on why he likes cats, and used it to take a shot at black people. So, yeah, dude had his race issues. Heck of a writer though.
And he later renounced those views as being unfair, and himself as a 'jackass' for ever expressing them, he married a Jewish woman and repeatedly expressed regret over the bigotry present in his earlier works.
Thank you for bringing up Howard's actual subtext. It was the source of his depression as well as his genius. It hurts that so many people only know of him through the pale imitations that others have made from his characters. Something I've always had mixed feelings about since Howard and his family were screwed out of ownership of his works.
2:57
That new editor looks... familiar.
How can every video get me more pumped for the series?
I guess it's somewhat appropriate that the darker elements brought to the horror and fantasy/sci- fi genres would also introduce many of the more distateful elements with, with all the implications it entails, if that makes sense?
These dark and brooding worlds with their dark and brooding themes, casting upon themselves elements that were very lurid and questionable themselves, possibly reflecting the views of the world of the time, and echoing over to ours -- like phantoms and poltergeists -- unable, and perhaps unwilling even, to let go. Haunting the minds of the vulnerable, seeping into the empty spaces in our brains, taking root and blooming full with time and effort, god unwilling. In that's just some food for thought, though.
Hm, there was a lot more I had to say than I realized. Oh well!
The timing of Lovecraft’s Call of Cthulhu is fascinating. First published in 1928, it was only four years after Edwin Hubble had overturned humanity’s understanding of the size universe. The people living in this time has seen the known size of the universe jump from just the Milky Way galaxy to the exponentially larger, incomprehensible universe we now know. The galaxy we once thought was everything was now one of billions, if not more.
Even if this wasn’t a direct inspiration for Lovecraft’s work, the Call of Cthulhu came out to an audience that was witnessing their own cosmic horror as their place in the universe seemed even smaller and more insignificant that ever.
It is nice to look back on such influences and admire their works. And though their are these less than desirable effects, ideas, and troupes from these writers. We must rember that even these ideas can be used to benfit a story. And to teach a lesson of what once was. We should neither refuse or excuse simply accept what was was.
It’s surreal listening to the description of Robert Howard depicting learned strongmen and his love for the occult and esoteric culture mashing, having watched the JoJo’s Bizarre Adventure video Mother’s Basement put out today.
This might as well be describing both Phantom Blood and Battle Tendency (which have gotten bad raps from the fanbase as being simplistic and rote), which I maintain that if they had been in the Penny Dreadful and Weird Tales eras of fiction respectively, they would be studied as masterpieces. Just makes me appreciate Lovecraft, Howard, and Araki all the more for their uncanny ability to nail niche storytelling.
Conan-->Mako-->Samurai Jack. Makes sense.
Most people went nuts over Aku, but my fan-squee moment was at 5:20. FOR THE HONOOOOOOR OF GRAAAAYSKUUUUULL!
Robert E. Howard Philiphs Lovecraft
I love that you got right the sort of dice you would use to roll for sanity.
In my Weird Fantasy collection, there are some pretty cool stories, my two personal favorites are a story where 18/19 century slavers are themselves captured by aliens to be enslaved, but when the alien cops close in on the alien ship, the slavers are jettisoned out of the airlock to die and dispose of the evidence. The other is a story where a race of unstoppable aliens, which is indestructible, extremely fast, acute senses, and reproduce asexually, lands in a meteor and destroy humanity.
Those sound like interesting stories! Can I ask about the titles so I can track these down for later reading?
That actually sounds pretty awesome! I wouldn't mind titles either, if you don't mind digging them up.
I'm just gonna throw a necro on here for the titles please
Ok, first one is Weird Fantasy, Volume 2, The Slave Ship. Second on is Weird Fantasy, Volume 2, A Mistake in Multiplication. Also, I confused some elements with other stories. They aren't indestructible, and are captured aboard an abandoned UFO.
Also, these aren't even the weirdest ones by a freaking long shot. Some of this stuff is crazy.
Awesome video guys! I also really appreciate that you pointed out the negative aspects of these writers. I love some of H.P. Lovecraft's work, but it's important to acknowledge who he was.
Great episode, Extra Credits! I'm really liking this new series of yours. I hope you keep up with the good work! :D
I only have one question, and that is in regards to your comment on the 'damsel in distress' trope. Why do you think it's such a bad thing? I agree that the excessive nudity displayed on the Weird Tales covers didn't help much to give the archetype a good name, but, from what I've studied, this archetype is much more older than the invention of Weird Tales. One needs to look no further than the work of C. G. Jung to find out how expansive and significant the story of the 'damsel in distress' truly is. It's one of the most recurrent themes in cultures across the world (not just the Western ones). And besides, if sexism is what you're worried of, I don't see any reason why you would call this archetype sexist or misogynist. To me, the story has always been one of sacrifice for that which we deeply love and respect (a woman or damsel being just about the perfect symbol to describe that sort of meaning). Anyways, that's just my personal thoughts. I'd love to know what you, guys, think about it. Maybe a really nice and interesting conversation can spring out of this. So with that said, good luck, Extra Credits! I wish you all the best! :)
While there are a few damsels in distress in older stories, they are nowhere near as prevalent as people think they are, and the trope was not only popularized by pulp fiction, but also by silent films and Disney adaptions. In many of the stories the heroines are much more active in the older versions, for example, the Red riding hood manages to flee the wolf by herself in several of the versions, and Cinderella in the original tale planted a tree that gave her the shoes and ballgown, unlike the Disney version where she's simply given it from her fairy godmother. And heroines like Sleeping Beauty and Brunhilde aren't in distress as much as they are merely waiting for the hero to arrive. I have read several books on Greek, Egyptian and Norse mythology and only come across a handfull of real damsels, compared to several dozens of goddesses, queens and sorceresses actively participating in the plot. In fact, one of the oldest myths recorded features the Sumerian goddess Inanna traveling to the underworld to bring back her dead husband Dumuzid.
The reason the damsel in distress trope has been critiqued by both men and women is that it presents women as passive and unable to take care of themselves, and that dropping everything for a woman he's barely even seen is a normal and reasonable thing for a man to do.
Gertrud Bondesson I agree that portraying women as passive and unable beings is a bad thing. However, given the allegorical nature of most folktales (and of the old Disney films as well), I wouldn't interpret these tales these tales as statements on the abilities of women, but rather stories of situations where the different elements of the psyche, as Jung called it, are at play. From a Jungian perspective (the one that is most often to analyze the meanings of myth and legend), characters do not represent a group of society but a trait or tendency of each individual, which will be given their connotation as either beneficial or damaging according to the events that play out in the narrative. Take for instance the tale of Sleeping Beauty. Here, the character of Aurora does not represent all females but rather a certain childish yet pure and delightful idleness that exists in all of us, be it male or female. The fact that Aurora is decieved by Maleficent does not mean that all female are stupid or incapable of distinguishing good from bad. Far from that, it means that people, regardless of their sex, need to be aware of their own idleness in order to not fall prey to the evils in this world. But if they do so, they'll need another part of the psyche to save them. This is represented in the form of Prince Philip, who in symbologicak terms would be the blunt instinct we possess that allow us to make a switch and wake up to reality. Now, there's also a reason why the two roles are distributed between the genders, yet unlike to what some have said, it is not because one of the genders is better than the other. To the contrary, each of the two genders complements the others, thus stating that if an individual is able to use both of these attributes to their psyche, then he or she will succeed in vanishing the evil that lies within him or her.
I hope that makes sense. Sorry if I was too cofusing. All the same, thanks, Gertrude for your feedback and response. I very much appreciate it. Have a nice weekend!
EDIT: I almost forgot to mention that if you have any doubts about what I just wrote above, you should take a look at the UA-cam channel "Academy of Ideas". It has a great video explaining the concept of Jungian psychology. I'm just warning, though, if you love philosophy and deep ideas, you're gonna love it. :D
Cheers! And good luck!
The channel you mentioned seems interesting, though I've only seen one video so far, thanks for the tip. While Jung had many interesting ideas, he was also a man of his time and open to the biases of the society he lived in. Furthermore I question the notion that folktales were constructed as allegorical representations of the psyche, considering their oral nature and the fact that they were originally meant to be told in front of a live audience. Most of the elements of the folktales come from the wish to entertain (heroes fighting monsters, daring escapes and swashbuckling) as well as teach children morals (thieves and liars getting punished) rather than any deliberate symbolism and allegories. And unlike written books, oral folktales do not have a single creator and have been changed multiple times over the centuries, some versions directly conflicting with each other. For example, in one of the older versions of Sleeping Beauty, she doesn't awake when the prince arrives, instead the prince rapes her in her sleep and leaves. Sleeping Beauty later gives birth to a child, without waking up, and it is only when the child crawls over her body and sucks out the needle from her finger that she wakes up, a completely different ending, since it isn't a strong prince but an oblivious infant that awakens her. Many other folktales have been similarly bowdlerized, such as Cinderella forgiving her wicked stepmother and ending the story on a note of peace and forgiveness, whereas several older versions ends with a flock of birds magically appearing and pecking out the stepmother and stepsisters eyes as punishment for their cruelty. In one Egyptian version Cinderella doesn't even have any abusive stepparents at all, instead it starts with a bird stealing her shoe and dropping it in front of a young Pharaoh who wows to find the woman the shoe fits.
I also think using old folktales is a poor excuse for using one-dimensional damsels in modern storytelling, since higher literacy as well as a broader range of entertainment to choose from means that the average audience has higher demands from their entertainment, and while the critique of damsels is the the most prominent aspect of this, several other tropes, such as a flawless one-dimensional hero, monsters that suddenly appear without explanation or characters dying gruesomely as punishment for small slights are often considered outdated and changed for modern adaptions.
As someone who is both awful at writing and enjoys making quick light hearted adventure tales, I would LOVE to hear what sort of expletives Lovecraft would use in describing my stuff haha
Lovecraft scared us with an eldritch, terrifying, unspeakable horror: racism.
*truly terrifying*
Was expecting a detailed talk about lovecraft's stories, but the history regarding the magazine he wrote for is interesting as well. However the last few episodes of extra sci-fi feels more like an extra history about sci-fi rather than the genre itself.
Fun fact: "The Shadow Over Innsmouth", a story in which a man discovers he is descended from vile and horrible creatures with fish-like faces was written soon after Lovecraft found out that his grandmother was Welsh.
That's...quaint.
I never used that word before but it feels super apropos here.