@@patriotplays6990yea because you do financing for a large ammo company and actually know that🤦♂️ ur saying that like anyone wants to charge less for there product🤦♂️
@@shaggygeese7500 The link between the Government and these manufacturers suggest the extremely high prices are a way to price people out of shooting, while still having plausible deniability.
@@bmstyleeI thought 224 rifles also fired standard .223 ammo as well.....or was that only with the Wylde?....I mean at least the guns are still usable in that case
@@jacobishii6121 224valkyrie is a different case entirely. 223 won't fit in a 224valk chamber because the shoulder is higher. Even if it did fit, firing it would cause the case to burst because the body of the .224valk is wider. 5.56x45, 223wylde, and 223remington are all different chamber specifications for the same cartridge. They all chamber the same shaped object.
The .45 GAP was designed to get similar performance to a .45 ACP from a 9mm-sized handgun. The .30 Super Carry was designed to get more rounds into a 9mm sized compact handgun without compromising terminal performance or the small size of the gun. Despite the popular description of being "an answer to a question nobody asked," both rounds had very specific problems they were addressing, but neither one became successful. That is what I see in the .21 Sharp's future. Yes, it is addressing a very specific problem, but one that is not enough of a problem for most people to justify buying a gun chambered in it. That is too bad, too, because I like to see ammo and gun manufacturers making incremental improvements to their art and industry.
Comparing 30SC to 45GAP is wild. Problem with 30SC is that S&W got some kind of exclusive deal with Federal, so there hasn't been a P365 or anything else released in it. Nobody wanted 45GAP because nobody wants a large[r] bore handgun cartridge.
None of the other cartridges you mentioned used existing cases, this does. Making this ammo is just putting a different bullet in the exact same case, companies with multiple .22lr loadings already do exactly this.
I'd love to get a .30 Super Carry in a full size M1911A1, but the only ones I saw made cost a fortune. Random thought there. I guess the question here is, will lead bans get harsh enough and widespread enough to make this "need" a reality for enough shooters? Maybe this thing will be a sleeper for 10 years, then take off like a rocket?
The 30 AR was also in that boat. Near 308 performance out of an AR 15 platform. The market is full of rounds that didn’t offer anything significant enough to warrant purchasing and replacing what already worked and did it well.
Notice how they didnt give you a price on the ammo... that means its not cheap. If your going to make something to compete with the .22lr... its got to be similarly priced... not 9mm prices.
@@alexryherd9810yeah for what gain? I’d just fork out for the 22wmr it’s enough for any small game hunting. If you’re so broke you have to crunch the numbers on a box of any kind of rimfire ammo you need to keep using your Red Ryder bud 😂
They actually going to make ammo or just let it wither on the vine like 17wsm? I’m seeing prices online for 21.60 a box that’s well above what I would consider affordable for a “improved 22lr” . Winchesters own promotional material claims 1.5 moa at 50 yards I wouldn’t consider that an improvement over any of my 22lr rifles.
All they're doing it making a bullet, they don't need to make new brass, it's .22lr brass. Also the 1.5moa claim is for their copper 25gr. Have you shot copper .22lr? It's bad, you're lucky to get 1.5moa from premium ammo. But there's no doubt the bullets and chambers will benefit from the removal of the .22 body bulge, it'll fly better, and it'll jump to the lands better.
@@phillycheesetakeyes I have shot copper 22lr the Norma eco speed does fine . CCI’s copper ammo not so much. I have centerfire rifles that don’t like most copper bullets so I don’t really think it’s a bullet shape issue. And who said anything about making new brass? I am well aware what brass they are using .
Australian manufactured 22 were great reliable and accurate! Winchester betrayed Australia and shut down manufacturing! Lead in metalic form is not a contaminant there are lead water pipes in the UK laid down by the Romans and they work to this day!
Its a .22 LR case technically necked down to .21 with the exact same pressure spec, it will 100% work and fire out of a .22 but accuracy would be poor.
Given the amount of 22LR I've stocked, i will keep using it unless my province bans it. That would suck for those who have stocked up over the years. 😳
Always good to see the spirit of curiosity and open mindedness is alive and well amongst the shooting community. In your narrow little worlds, you may not be aware that there are shooters pushing the .22LR well past 300 yards every weekend. This could be an answer to the limitations of a cartridge left over from the Civil War. Open your minds a little duffers.
Anyone remember the 5mm rimfire cartridge? Anybody ever seen one or had one in his hand? Remember 17 caliber on the .22lr case that was pushed for about a year before it disappeared? Remember what the difference in price is between .22lr and 22magnum? For the California market? I predict that no one will even remember this cartridge besides the people foolish enough to buy guns in it by Xmas 2025.
I’ve got a single original 5mm rimfire round, I think Agula made some several years ago though. It’s a shame they’re allowed to make guns in oddball caliber and not have to legally produce the ammo, at least in small batches every year
NOoooooooo!! Not ANOTHER rimfire that I'll just HAVE to have! Thought I had covered it with the .17 HM2, HMR, & WSM. Gotta see RIGHT NOW if it's advertised anywhere.
The Australians will be excited. Their projectiles must be smaller than 0.22, even with airguns. This is why the fancy new airgun slugs are 0.217 or 0.218
This seems a bit like the 17wsm and 17mach2 aka cartridges that never really went anywhere. If they wanted to make a splash I would think trying to resurrect the 5mm might be a good option but honestly the rimfire market is pretty crowded. I would think trying to make it compatible with regular 22 rifles would be a better option.
I love the innovation, but I seriously doubt most people will want to go through the trouble of re-barreling their guns or buying yet another rimfire gun that won't take .22LR. I hope I'm wrong as this looks like a great thing and I'd love to see what it can do out of a pistol, even from small CCW pistols. Alas, most shooters are casual and in the current economy I doubt they will be rushing to the store. Again, I hope I'm wrong.
They could have just used the .22 WMR as a base and shortened it to .22LR length. .224" bullets, non-heeled design. Having to make barrels in a non-standard bore with non-standard sized bullets is just a weird choice.
@@NC-xk1eg .22 short/long/long rifle use .223" bullets. It's more than a bit ridiculous to expect bullet sizing to half a thousandth. I'm guessing the number is a conversion from a metric measurement? That's accuracy well beyond what most old machine tools are capable of.
Theres no market vacuum for it... it will go the way of the 5mm remington. There only new market for rimfire is literally bulk loading component for people who might wanna roll their own (PRS and NRL Rimfire shooters)
They have improved the bullet but did the improve the gunpowder. I think the biggest issue with a 22 Rimfire has always been the nasty powder. a big part of it anyway
Another new cartridge release from Winchester great. I would only buy one if they could guarantee that they would still be making it 30 years from now, they however cannot guarantee this. They say they have to keep making new products to stay alive. It would sure seem to me that they would need to continue making ammo or at least brass for recent past releases. They may say that I’m not being fair, but I don’t find it fair that they aren’t making ammo /brass for their older cartridges.
A solution for a problem nobody is even aware of. Too many millions of 22LR guns out there to try to make inroads into that part of shooting. Regardless of what they say, cost of this new round will be several times greater compared to current 22LR. All this will do is sucker some shooters into buying guns that ammo will soon dry up for. Maybe those guns will become collector items though so they might get their money back in 30 or 40 years by selling to the collector market. Instead of constantly trying to come up with something new, I wish gun and ammo companies would focus on keeping what they currently catalog in stock!!!!!
I believe this is a bid to negate the lead issues with standard 22 long rifle. It just might be a good idea. If you can get replacement barrels for a 22 lr firearm, it’s parent 22 rim fire case might work.
My 17 WSM shoots 1/4 inch groups at 100 yards. I have always said if it was a 20 caliber it would be the perfect rifle. Maybe these bullets in the WSM case WOULD be an interesting rifle.
So I need a new rifle or re barrel one I already have to use the new round. Well if the new rifles are cheap enough and accurate enough then maybe this might become successful. A pistol offering would be needed too! Also will there be a Win Mag version? But this looks like a niche offering for those living in California and may not end up selling well out side that state. If that's the case, it may end up like the .22 short, 22 swift and others
So my only major concern with this is going to be proper product support and it not being just a quick quirky new round to make a quick buck to the point ammo is very difficult or impossible to find. Winchester already has a done this with the 17 wsm.
If someone came out with a 21cal barrel for the ruger 10/22 would these rounds be able to cycle it? I think that might be the only way these rounds might catch on.
I can see how lead free and heeled bullet do not go together very well. But only time will tell if lead ban laws get strict enough to make this round a success. I think we'd be better off lobbying for .22 LR exemptions, and/or concentrating on the existing .22 Magnum... in sturdier guns, of course.
Hello NRA-PUBS: I have watched / listened to the video thrice now and I do NOT understand how / why that new .21 Sharp can be used in a firearm designed / made with a barrel that handles the .225 (Long Rifle) size bullet. The .21 caliber bullet will go down the barrel, but it is not going to get a "spin" from the rifling grooves that are for the bullet of .225 caliber. You would be able to hit 1 gallon milk jug at 5 feet from the muzzle but not a standard bullseye target at 25 yards.
What they said is that it can be used in a firearm that was designed to handle the 22lr. Same case and cartridge length, same pressure, but will need a new 21cal barrel. So Gun manufactures won't have to redesign their current firearms, only install 21cal barrels on them. The Ruger 10/22 has easily replaceable barrels. One bolt, the barrel slides out, slide in new barrel, tighten the one bolt. Very simple process and should be easy to understand. The real question is what will happen if you try to put a 22lr round in a 21 Sharp chamber? My guess is the throat on the 21 will be too tight to allow the bolt to close on the 22 bullet. If the bolt does close, the difference between 22 and 21 is very small and 22lr lead bullets are very soft. So the bullet will probably fire with no problems and the 22 soft lead bullet will just get swaged down to fit the 21 barrel. The accuracy will probably not be great, but shouldn't be dangerous.
The lion's share of shooters who simply target shoot only are not bound by the no-lead laws on hunting loads even in California. therefore, I doubt a rush to this will happen any time some. A very good concept, but it will be very slow in being adopted widely. One can only hope Winchester see's this and is truly in it for the long haul.
Seels like you could put thin shim petals around the bullet and make a more ballistic bullet run in a 22 barrel. But I'm also fully in this "this isn't a real problem" camp. My mantra is "if this was a problem, they would have fixed it already".
Too many boutique cartridges being pumped out every year for the sole purpose of selling higher cost ammunition and the firearms that are chambered in the novel cartridges. All about Marketing and Sales and all the rationale is malarkey. Lead free 22LR is already available, where as 21 Sharp is effectively not available at all. 22LR Lead free ammunition prices are currently not unreasonable and will almost certainly come down as the munitions industry transitions to Lead alternatives en masse to remain in compliance with EU and Calitardia regulations.
Don't see the point when there is 22 mag or 17 hmr. Winchester also released the 17 wsmr and I don't think that really took off. I think Savage was the only one making rifles.
So the first question comes up...obviously.... What happens if someone shoots the new round in an existing .22 caliber rimfire gun? (Pressures? Accuracy? Damage to the gun's barrel and rifling, etc....) And then the same about the opposite... firing a high velocity .22 rimfire in one of the NEW .21 caliber guns? (Same concerns plus safety...???) Interesting idea, though!
Firing the 21 Sharp in a 22LR barrel means pressures will be low, since there will be no obturation from the undersized bullet. Accuracy will be poor for the same reason. And I doubt there will be any damage to the barrel since the bullet will be much softer than the barrel. I don't know what to think about firing the 22LR in a 21 Sharp barrel. Ackley did some work on this idea, relieving the throats of various rifles to accommodate the rifles' ammunition loaded with oversized bullets then firing the oversized bullets down the original bore. He didn't have any problems doing this, apparently because the bullet had been swaged down to size and started accelerating down the bore by the time the pressure hit its peak.The powders used in these cartridges were slower burning than powders used for rimfire cartridges, though, and the different burn rates might make enough difference between these two situations to cause problems.
I'm curious how this would perform with it's subcaliber round in any normal .22 rifle or pistol. Of course, it is most likely a come-on for a new series of .21 caliber guns for those with new associations to shooting that hold no affection for the tried and true older models, preferring the latest thing or the 'demon tweak' as it was once called. Well, Winchester is in business to make profits, and this may be sufficient to do just that. I think that any subcaliber performance will act to spur an urge to upgrade to a new plinker, so, for some, that will guarantee Winchester a margin of success. In due time, they will raise the price of the ammo like the .17 HRM, the price of the rifles and pistols will continue to climb beyond the ridiculous as they always have and it will all repeat ad infinitum. I'll have to try a box to see what I think before i make up my mind but I'm old enough not to believe every company's promotional advertising before the facts are in.
It may be suited to as a revolver round.. maybe better if they produced 21 magnum ammo ..would be interesting to see 21 magnum rifle with 25 round magazine
O man this is the bomb. I need to buy a whole bunch of these rifles. And then after they don't sell a jillion rifles they discontinued making ammo. Nope.... Never..... Been there done that. Winchester is worst offender of this BS. All ready got lead free 22 now so that's a lie too.
Im only interested if the ammo cost roughly the same as .22 LR. That way I can buy a gun and like 10k rounds and know that ill be able to feed it for years, in case this flops. I have no doubt its superior to .22 LR in every way, except cost, but it has to make sense price wise or people are just going to buy a .22 mag instead. I suspect this ammo will cost as much as .22 mag at least, thats going to be an issue.
I see this taking off about like the 17 mach 2. Its really a shame about the mach 2, because it would be an amazing small game cartridge. The problem with this 21 sharps, while it will likely be ballistically superior to the 22lr, the 22lr can also chamber and fire 22 long and 22 short. Since most people dont ever use 22l or 22s, that's probably not an issue for most, but for myself that is an issue in some cases. Obviously not an issue with an autoloader or something that ises detachable box magazines since any of that chambered in 22lr wont cycle the others anyway, but even a 22lr that wont cycle them can still fire them if loaded into the chamber one at a time. The biggest problem is gonna be price, because if the price isnt directly comparable to 22lr, its not gonna stick around. 17HM2 was on its way to being almost the same price as good 22lr ammo, in fact it was the same price in early 2020, but around march of 2020 all the ammo skyrocketed and dried up and the 17HM2 got the backburner for a second time. I don't see the mach 2 coming back unfortunately, and I see the mach 2 being better than this 21 sharps. Just my opinion.
Bolt action guys don’t get the issue with 223/300 Blackout, only AR guys mixing up magazines. Lots of cartridges share the same size headcase, the 7.62 x 39, 6.5 Grendel, 6 ARC, 6 PRC and others based of the Russian case. Never hear of issues with someone trying to jamb a 7.62 in a 6 ARC. I keep hopping of a commercially available 6mm based on the 223 case
I agree we need a nontoxic replacement for the 22Lr. But I think it would have been better to use the same diameter bullet with a larger diameter case. In 1903 winchester brought to market a simiautomatic rifle in a proprietary caliber ' 22 winchester automatic. It had the same case length as a 22lr , if the .22 winchester automatic was re-released with a nontoxic bullet it would be a simple fix to rechamber the millions of existing firearms.
That would require all of the ammo makers to retool their machines to manufacture a new shell casing, this uses existing shell and changes bullets, which they already do on all their rimfire ammo anyways. A new barrel on most 22LR is cheaper!
Interesting, are there plans to make subsonic offerings? And if not, why this over an already established .17 HM 2? Otherwise it seems as just a "new shiny". Like the .17 WSM it is a nice cartridge, but didn't offer enough for enough people to really gain the traction necessary to widely replace either the .22 mag or the .17 HMR. I would think that this .21 would need to be able to fill all the niches of the. 22lr and start to beat it in accuracy and affordability to keep in the running and eventual replacement of the .22lr. Like the electric car vs gas, the electric is shiny, new, has some advantages, but cost, maintainence, replacements, infrastructure etc, is simply not there yet.
Best .22 ammo. Remington thunder bolt. Federal auto match And for sub sonic go with remigton subsonic. All feed great i ratley get a dud. Just clean your guns.
I see this aimed at the "long range" .22 guys. Or for NRL guys. I can see it doing better for stuff like that if it's even allowed in competition but for being a "better" .22 lr it's probably gonna be a total dud because it's gonna be more expensive and require a whole new gun to chamber it. It does seem like a neat concept but the people will speak with their wallet.
Great. Except, we don't have Paul to test it for us. RIP.
I was thinking the exact same thing, things just aren’t as enjoyable with Roy in my opinion.
@@nathanmortensen4725Roy is just as ad as everyone else I am sure. We lost a legend…..
Paul ain't dead. Legends never die.
@@xiongfa2152 Paul wouls never touch this woke Cali Commie trash round!
Roy has little personality
Great another round. How about focus on getting cost down and number up. Ammo companies have been gouging since covid.
ammo companies are not gouging, those are the costs. If you could make money doing it cheaper someone would
More like since 9/11. I remember spending 15¢ per round on 5.56x45mm NATO rounds. Then, almost overnight, it just kept going up.
@@patriotplays6990yea because you do financing for a large ammo company and actually know that🤦♂️ ur saying that like anyone wants to charge less for there product🤦♂️
@@shaggygeese7500 The link between the Government and these manufacturers suggest the extremely high prices are a way to price people out of shooting, while still having plausible deniability.
You bought groceries recently?!?
I see this going the route of the .30 super carry...
And 224 Valkyrie
Not even that "successful".
@@JohnPublic-dk7zd and 17wsm
@@bmstyleeI thought 224 rifles also fired standard .223 ammo as well.....or was that only with the Wylde?....I mean at least the guns are still usable in that case
@@jacobishii6121 224valkyrie is a different case entirely. 223 won't fit in a 224valk chamber because the shoulder is higher. Even if it did fit, firing it would cause the case to burst because the body of the .224valk is wider.
5.56x45, 223wylde, and 223remington are all different chamber specifications for the same cartridge. They all chamber the same shaped object.
They ought to consider pounding out cartridges that we already have !
The .45 GAP was designed to get similar performance to a .45 ACP from a 9mm-sized handgun.
The .30 Super Carry was designed to get more rounds into a 9mm sized compact handgun without compromising terminal performance or the small size of the gun.
Despite the popular description of being "an answer to a question nobody asked," both rounds had very specific problems they were addressing, but neither one became successful. That is what I see in the .21 Sharp's future. Yes, it is addressing a very specific problem, but one that is not enough of a problem for most people to justify buying a gun chambered in it. That is too bad, too, because I like to see ammo and gun manufacturers making incremental improvements to their art and industry.
Comparing 30SC to 45GAP is wild.
Problem with 30SC is that S&W got some kind of exclusive deal with Federal, so there hasn't been a P365 or anything else released in it.
Nobody wanted 45GAP because nobody wants a large[r] bore handgun cartridge.
None of the other cartridges you mentioned used existing cases, this does. Making this ammo is just putting a different bullet in the exact same case, companies with multiple .22lr loadings already do exactly this.
I'd love to get a .30 Super Carry in a full size M1911A1, but the only ones I saw made cost a fortune. Random thought there.
I guess the question here is, will lead bans get harsh enough and widespread enough to make this "need" a reality for enough shooters? Maybe this thing will be a sleeper for 10 years, then take off like a rocket?
Beat me to it! Was gonna mention those calibers. There’s definitely more but didn’t cover the gap the manufacturers hoped
The 30 AR was also in that boat. Near 308 performance out of an AR 15 platform. The market is full of rounds that didn’t offer anything significant enough to warrant purchasing and replacing what already worked and did it well.
Notice how they didnt give you a price on the ammo... that means its not cheap. If your going to make something to compete with the .22lr... its got to be similarly priced... not 9mm prices.
They said it's half the price of .22 mag and 50% higher than .22 lr
It’s pretty damn cheap for a new round that only has a handful of models that shoot it.
@@alexryherd9810yeah for what gain? I’d just fork out for the 22wmr it’s enough for any small game hunting. If you’re so broke you have to crunch the numbers on a box of any kind of rimfire ammo you need to keep using your Red Ryder bud 😂
17c at midway
Agree NO DEAL!
They actually going to make ammo or just let it wither on the vine like 17wsm? I’m seeing prices online for 21.60 a box that’s well above what I would consider affordable for a “improved 22lr” . Winchesters own promotional material claims 1.5 moa at 50 yards I wouldn’t consider that an improvement over any of my 22lr rifles.
I guess the lead issue is what it's really about. Agree 1.5moa isn't that good but in some places there is a very real prospect of a lead ban.
All they're doing it making a bullet, they don't need to make new brass, it's .22lr brass.
Also the 1.5moa claim is for their copper 25gr. Have you shot copper .22lr? It's bad, you're lucky to get 1.5moa from premium ammo. But there's no doubt the bullets and chambers will benefit from the removal of the .22 body bulge, it'll fly better, and it'll jump to the lands better.
@@phillycheesetakeyes I have shot copper 22lr the Norma eco speed does fine . CCI’s copper ammo not so much. I have centerfire rifles that don’t like most copper bullets so I don’t really think it’s a bullet shape issue. And who said anything about making new brass? I am well aware what brass they are using .
.17 wsm is making a resurgence in the community, ammo is constantly being sold out by ammo hoarders.
I've never even tested any ammo that shot that bad at 50y lol I'm sure it will be much more accurate than that
The 22lr did get an upgrade already, it's called 22 magnum😂 I see no use for this cartridge
Hello! Knock, Knock, Knock, anybody in there?
Cheaper
17hmr is king
@@michaell397yes, what you got to say
If Winchester is producing the ammo expect at least half of primers not to ignite.
We know the deal.
Australian manufactured 22 were great reliable and accurate! Winchester betrayed Australia and shut down manufacturing! Lead in metalic form is not a contaminant there are lead water pipes in the UK laid down by the Romans and they work to this day!
So, a cartridge that will NOT work in the millions of .22's out there already?
Its a .22 LR case technically necked down to .21 with the exact same pressure spec, it will 100% work and fire out of a .22 but accuracy would be poor.
Correct
Of course, they want to sell new rifles.
IS THERE a Gun, any gun, in production that IS made for this NEW Ammo?
It can destroy the barrel or receptacle.
If only I wasn’t terrified of Winchester white box ammo😂.
Now THAT is a lead balloon
Haha Ryan would be proud
Given the amount of 22LR I've stocked, i will keep using it unless my province bans it. That would suck for those who have stocked up over the years. 😳
When everything is cleaned whos to say what you shot it with better move fast lol
If they ban it don’t comply
Always good to see the spirit of curiosity and open mindedness is alive and well amongst the shooting community. In your narrow little worlds, you may not be aware that there are shooters pushing the .22LR well past 300 yards every weekend. This could be an answer to the limitations of a cartridge left over from the Civil War. Open your minds a little duffers.
Creating a solution for a problem that doesn’t (really??) exist
Anyone remember the 5mm rimfire cartridge? Anybody ever seen one or had one in his hand? Remember 17 caliber on the .22lr case that was pushed for about a year before it disappeared? Remember what the difference in price is between .22lr and
22magnum? For the California market? I predict that no one will even remember this cartridge besides the people foolish enough to buy guns in it by Xmas 2025.
I’ve got a single original 5mm rimfire round, I think Agula made some several years ago though. It’s a shame they’re allowed to make guns in oddball caliber and not have to legally produce the ammo, at least in small batches every year
I have a 17 Mach II from Savage, and the ammo is still available for it.
You can still order 17 wsm. But you forgot about the 22wrf. Still find ammo no
Gun.
the .17hm2 is a great little cartridge. unless you meant the .17 agula , that poor thing died before anyone heard of it.
Sounds like a solution to a nonexistent problem. 🤷🏼♂️
NOoooooooo!! Not ANOTHER rimfire that I'll just HAVE to have!
Thought I had covered it with the .17 HM2, HMR, & WSM.
Gotta see RIGHT NOW if it's advertised anywhere.
I wish they would re produce 5mm rem rifles and ammo.
Sucker born every minute.
I understand your sarcasm 😂, but a quiet very high quality air rifle with a scope is a better choice than rimfire in my opinion.
Can’t wait to read about this in the book of obscure dead cartridges in 15 years
This is a good example of fixing something that’s not broken.
The Australians will be excited. Their projectiles must be smaller than 0.22, even with airguns. This is why the fancy new airgun slugs are 0.217 or 0.218
Wait, so .22lr is illegal there?
Then how come I watch a guy in Australia shooting 45-70 and other large calibers literally just posted a video a few days ago too😂
Where did you get this information? Is this for a specific type of obscure hunting? We can typically have anything up to 50 cal
Complete nonsense. Here in Australia we can buy anything from 17HMR up to .50cal - Do you research before posting BS.
Complete and utter bulldust.
This seems a bit like the 17wsm and 17mach2 aka cartridges that never really went anywhere. If they wanted to make a splash I would think trying to resurrect the 5mm might be a good option but honestly the rimfire market is pretty crowded. I would think trying to make it compatible with regular 22 rifles would be a better option.
I love the innovation, but I seriously doubt most people will want to go through the trouble of re-barreling their guns or buying yet another rimfire gun that won't take .22LR. I hope I'm wrong as this looks like a great thing and I'd love to see what it can do out of a pistol, even from small CCW pistols. Alas, most shooters are casual and in the current economy I doubt they will be rushing to the store. Again, I hope I'm wrong.
Will last as long as 30 super carry
Thanks for telling us it’s cheaper to make, now we’ll only buy it if it’s cheaper on the shelf.
Could the ammo manufacturers ease up on the gimmicks and release some primers and powder?!
There are primers and powder everywhere. You just have to buy them.
@@thatoneguybones8036 Mate, last time I checked my local gun store in Australia, they told me there was a FIVE YEAR BACKORDER on primers.
They could have just used the .22 WMR as a base and shortened it to .22LR length. .224" bullets, non-heeled design. Having to make barrels in a non-standard bore with non-standard sized bullets is just a weird choice.
Totally agree. And as you said: .224" dia. What's the .2255" stuff he mentioned? Where did that come from?
@@NC-xk1eg .22 short/long/long rifle use .223" bullets. It's more than a bit ridiculous to expect bullet sizing to half a thousandth. I'm guessing the number is a conversion from a metric measurement? That's accuracy well beyond what most old machine tools are capable of.
Nice how they discount the old so quick
Fixing a problem that doesn't exist
This is now giving me some ideas of some Gun Designs for this Ammunition 👌👍
Theres no market vacuum for it... it will go the way of the 5mm remington. There only new market for rimfire is literally bulk loading component for people who might wanna roll their own (PRS and NRL Rimfire shooters)
They have improved the bullet but did the improve the gunpowder. I think the biggest issue with a 22 Rimfire has always been the nasty powder. a big part of it anyway
Stop using cheap ammo
I’ll never buy another Winchester product after seeing how they supported the .17wsm.. never seen the ammo on the shelf to this day
7mm WSM is another that Winchester does not support. No ammo and they aren’t even making brass so we can reload for the 7mm WSM
Another new cartridge release from Winchester great. I would only buy one if they could guarantee that they would still be making it 30 years from now, they however cannot guarantee this. They say they have to keep making new products to stay alive. It would sure seem to me that they would need to continue making ammo or at least brass for recent past releases. They may say that I’m not being fair, but I don’t find it fair that they aren’t making ammo /brass for their older cartridges.
What we needed was a bottle neck case with a Diameter .224" jacket bullet same OAL as 9mm for both Pistol and rifle!
Im getting 17 Mach 2 flashbacks!
Exactly, I do know what you mean!!
A solution for a problem nobody is even aware of. Too many millions of 22LR guns out there to try to make inroads into that part of shooting. Regardless of what they say, cost of this new round will be several times greater compared to current 22LR. All this will do is sucker some shooters into buying guns that ammo will soon dry up for. Maybe those guns will become collector items though so they might get their money back in 30 or 40 years by selling to the collector market. Instead of constantly trying to come up with something new, I wish gun and ammo companies would focus on keeping what they currently catalog in stock!!!!!
Amen!👍
I believe this is a bid to negate the lead issues with standard 22 long rifle. It just might be a good idea. If you can get replacement barrels for a 22 lr firearm, it’s parent 22 rim fire case might work.
You guys remember 17wsm?? Me neither 😂
That’s unfortunate that they have basically killed it due to lack of ammo production. It’s a really good little round and has tons of potential .
My 17 WSM shoots 1/4 inch groups at 100 yards. I have always said if it was a 20 caliber it would be the perfect rifle. Maybe these bullets in the WSM case WOULD be an interesting rifle.
What about .204 Ruger? Lmfao
I used mine extensively on gophers and it's in stock online. What is your point?
Still make still have ton of ammo ….
So I need a new rifle or re barrel one I already have to use the new round. Well if the new rifles are cheap enough and accurate enough then maybe this might become successful. A pistol offering would be needed too! Also will there be a Win Mag version? But this looks like a niche offering for those living in California and may not end up selling well out side that state. If that's the case, it may end up like the .22 short, 22 swift and others
That’s cool but I don’t plan on replacing my 22lr firearms
Sounds like fail out the gate
I'm not sure it'll even get TO the gate!!
I hope WW qc has improved. It’s an interesting idea
time will tell if it ends up like the 5mm
Is it possible to make a 21/22 barrel? That can shoot both with deeper rifling grooves.
So my only major concern with this is going to be proper product support and it not being just a quick quirky new round to make a quick buck to the point ammo is very difficult or impossible to find. Winchester already has a done this with the 17 wsm.
If someone came out with a 21cal barrel for the ruger 10/22 would these rounds be able to cycle it? I think that might be the only way these rounds might catch on.
if they wanna do that, would they make a heavy for cal subsonic?
I can see how lead free and heeled bullet do not go together very well. But only time will tell if lead ban laws get strict enough to make this round a success. I think we'd be better off lobbying for .22 LR exemptions, and/or concentrating on the existing .22 Magnum... in sturdier guns, of course.
Surely someone is going to stick 22 in 21 Sharps give the same OAL and rim size. Hopefully that doesn’t cause squibs or dangerous over pressure
Hello NRA-PUBS: I have watched / listened to the video thrice now and I do NOT understand how / why that new .21 Sharp can be used in a firearm designed / made with a barrel that handles the .225 (Long Rifle) size bullet. The .21 caliber bullet will go down the barrel, but it is not going to get a "spin" from the rifling grooves that are for the bullet of .225 caliber. You would be able to hit 1 gallon milk jug at 5 feet from the muzzle but not a standard bullseye target at 25 yards.
What they said is that it can be used in a firearm that was designed to handle the 22lr. Same case and cartridge length, same pressure, but will need a new 21cal barrel. So Gun manufactures won't have to redesign their current firearms, only install 21cal barrels on them. The Ruger 10/22 has easily replaceable barrels. One bolt, the barrel slides out, slide in new barrel, tighten the one bolt. Very simple process and should be easy to understand. The real question is what will happen if you try to put a 22lr round in a 21 Sharp chamber? My guess is the throat on the 21 will be too tight to allow the bolt to close on the 22 bullet. If the bolt does close, the difference between 22 and 21 is very small and 22lr lead bullets are very soft. So the bullet will probably fire with no problems and the 22 soft lead bullet will just get swaged down to fit the 21 barrel. The accuracy will probably not be great, but shouldn't be dangerous.
Your comprehension skill are garbage if that is what you rhink the video said.
You watched three times and didn’t catch where you have to buy a new barrel or rifle ?
I could maybe see watching it twice but three times? And still not get it? He should turn in his guns.
An interesting development. Will be interesting to see if it succeeds.
The lion's share of shooters who simply target shoot only are not bound by the no-lead laws on hunting loads even in California. therefore, I doubt a rush to this will happen any time some. A very good concept, but it will be very slow in being adopted widely. One can only hope Winchester see's this and is truly in it for the long haul.
Seels like you could put thin shim petals around the bullet and make a more ballistic bullet run in a 22 barrel. But I'm also fully in this "this isn't a real problem" camp. My mantra is "if this was a problem, they would have fixed it already".
That will go over like a lead brick....pun intended
Too many boutique cartridges being pumped out every year for the sole purpose of selling higher cost ammunition and the firearms that are chambered in the novel cartridges. All about Marketing and Sales and all the rationale is malarkey. Lead free 22LR is already available, where as 21 Sharp is effectively not available at all. 22LR Lead free ammunition prices are currently not unreasonable and will almost certainly come down as the munitions industry transitions to Lead alternatives en masse to remain in compliance with EU and Calitardia regulations.
Another barrel to find for my CZ457 :)
Don't see the point when there is 22 mag or 17 hmr. Winchester also released the 17 wsmr and I don't think that really took off. I think Savage was the only one making rifles.
Interesting... So this ammo cannot be fired through a .22 LR firearm ? Or yes it can ?
The most important ammo for 21 Sharp will be subsonic rounds. Are they manufacturing subsonic rounds?
None at this time
So the first question comes up...obviously....
What happens if someone shoots the new round in an existing .22 caliber rimfire gun?
(Pressures? Accuracy? Damage to the gun's barrel and rifling, etc....)
And then the same about the opposite... firing a high velocity .22 rimfire in one of the NEW .21 caliber guns? (Same concerns plus safety...???)
Interesting idea, though!
Firing the 21 Sharp in a 22LR barrel means pressures will be low, since there will be no obturation from the undersized bullet. Accuracy will be poor for the same reason. And I doubt there will be any damage to the barrel since the bullet will be much softer than the barrel.
I don't know what to think about firing the 22LR in a 21 Sharp barrel. Ackley did some work on this idea, relieving the throats of various rifles to accommodate the rifles' ammunition loaded with oversized bullets then firing the oversized bullets down the original bore. He didn't have any problems doing this, apparently because the bullet had been swaged down to size and started accelerating down the bore by the time the pressure hit its peak.The powders used in these cartridges were slower burning than powders used for rimfire cartridges, though, and the different burn rates might make enough difference between these two situations to cause problems.
Squib
The fudds are gonna love this
I'm curious how this would perform with it's subcaliber round in any normal .22 rifle or pistol. Of course, it is most likely a come-on for a new series of .21 caliber guns for those with new associations to shooting that hold no affection for the tried and true older models, preferring the latest thing or the 'demon tweak' as it was once called. Well, Winchester is in business to make profits, and this may be sufficient to do just that. I think that any subcaliber performance will act to spur an urge to upgrade to a new plinker, so, for some, that will guarantee Winchester a margin of success. In due time, they will raise the price of the ammo like the .17 HRM, the price of the rifles and pistols will continue to climb beyond the ridiculous as they always have and it will all repeat ad infinitum. I'll have to try a box to see what I think before i make up my mind but I'm old enough not to believe every company's promotional advertising before the facts are in.
Will there be a subsonic offering?
Now we just need barrel swaps on our 22s... cmon barrel makers...Dont forget the browning buckmark carbine line please.
Like the Concept, this will dominate .22 matches if allowed with real High BC bullets
It may be suited to as a revolver round.. maybe better if they produced 21 magnum ammo ..would be interesting to see 21 magnum rifle with 25 round magazine
I like it sounds like a great idea and a very nice improvement.
O man this is the bomb. I need to buy a whole bunch of these rifles. And then after they don't sell a jillion rifles they discontinued making ammo. Nope.... Never..... Been there done that. Winchester is worst offender of this BS. All ready got lead free 22 now so that's a lie too.
Hopefully they make some subsonic offerings.
Some body tried this, with .22. It was called the .22 elr, 22lr with a copper jacketed actual, aerodynamic bullet. It went nowhere.
Cost and didn’t you have to load them yourself?
22 magnum doesn't have a healed bullet. Just saying
This new cartridge sounds very interesting, but I would love to see some reviews on it before I decide to buy one?
Im only interested if the ammo cost roughly the same as .22 LR. That way I can buy a gun and like 10k rounds and know that ill be able to feed it for years, in case this flops. I have no doubt its superior to .22 LR in every way, except cost, but it has to make sense price wise or people are just going to buy a .22 mag instead. I suspect this ammo will cost as much as .22 mag at least, thats going to be an issue.
exactly and 22 mag will eat it for lunch. HornadyVMax Anyone? 30 grain goinf 2,200fps!
I see this taking off about like the 17 mach 2. Its really a shame about the mach 2, because it would be an amazing small game cartridge. The problem with this 21 sharps, while it will likely be ballistically superior to the 22lr, the 22lr can also chamber and fire 22 long and 22 short. Since most people dont ever use 22l or 22s, that's probably not an issue for most, but for myself that is an issue in some cases. Obviously not an issue with an autoloader or something that ises detachable box magazines since any of that chambered in 22lr wont cycle the others anyway, but even a 22lr that wont cycle them can still fire them if loaded into the chamber one at a time.
The biggest problem is gonna be price, because if the price isnt directly comparable to 22lr, its not gonna stick around.
17HM2 was on its way to being almost the same price as good 22lr ammo, in fact it was the same price in early 2020, but around march of 2020 all the ammo skyrocketed and dried up and the 17HM2 got the backburner for a second time. I don't see the mach 2 coming back unfortunately, and I see the mach 2 being better than this 21 sharps. Just my opinion.
So low end 22mag performance from a .22lr case? Why not design a .22lr projectile to be jacketed like the Federal Punch?
uhhh..its no way near even lowend 22 Win Mag performance Man.
And so we will have an ammo mismatch problem like in the .223/300 blackout mess.
Same case, diffrent diameter bullet.
What could possibly go wrong?
I'm not sure you're going to see issues like the 223/300. Rimfire ammo works at a much lower pressure and the size difference is much smaller.
If you are mixing ammo that bad then you probably shouldn't be around dangerous products
Bolt action guys don’t get the issue with 223/300 Blackout, only AR guys mixing up magazines.
Lots of cartridges share the same size headcase, the 7.62 x 39, 6.5 Grendel, 6 ARC, 6 PRC and others based of the Russian case. Never hear of issues with someone trying to jamb a 7.62 in a 6 ARC.
I keep hopping of a commercially available 6mm based on the 223 case
I agree we need a nontoxic replacement for the 22Lr. But I think it would have been better to use the same diameter bullet with a larger diameter case. In 1903 winchester brought to market a simiautomatic rifle in a proprietary caliber ' 22 winchester automatic. It had the same case length as a 22lr , if the .22 winchester automatic was re-released with a nontoxic bullet it would be a simple fix to rechamber the millions of existing firearms.
That would require all of the ammo makers to retool their machines to manufacture a new shell casing, this uses existing shell and changes bullets, which they already do on all their rimfire ammo anyways. A new barrel on most 22LR is cheaper!
First hearing about this cartridge here!
But will it bounce around 100% death round?
Interesting, are there plans to make subsonic offerings? And if not, why this over an already established .17 HM 2?
Otherwise it seems as just a "new shiny". Like the .17 WSM it is a nice cartridge, but didn't offer enough for enough people to really gain the traction necessary to widely replace either the .22 mag or the .17 HMR.
I would think that this .21 would need to be able to fill all the niches of the. 22lr and start to beat it in accuracy and affordability to keep in the running and eventual replacement of the .22lr.
Like the electric car vs gas, the electric is shiny, new, has some advantages, but cost, maintainence, replacements, infrastructure etc, is simply not there yet.
This will fizzle out quickly.
I’ll be darned. That’s kinda cool ‼️
“Hey guys, thanks for tuning in to another episode of Forgotten Weapons. My name is Ian McCollum and today….”
Greatest reply I’ve read tonight.
Why not a small centerfire based on a small pistol catridge with similar case capacity?
unfortunately that round is going to the Wayside like 17 Mach😢
if 17 match was not able to succeed this cartridge will not for even smaller group😢
Seems great!
Condor is back on the menu, boys! 🍽
Still has to make it onto the California roster 😅
can the 21 sharp be used in a 22lr chamber?
Yes, but it won't engage the rifling very well because of the diameter. You can fire it but don't expect to hit much.
And the .21 can be shot out of a .22 rifle. They shoot really well.
That’s so cool, I wonder what a box would go for.
What happens when you load a new 21 sharp round inside of your old 22lr rifle????
Best .22 ammo.
Remington thunder bolt.
Federal auto match
And for sub sonic go with remigton subsonic.
All feed great i ratley get a dud.
Just clean your guns.
So is it still 22LR or is it a new round where I have to get a 21 lr rifle
It’s called a 21 sharp and has a different bore diameter. So… yes you will need to get a 21 sharps rifle if you wanna shoot it accurately.
Sooo .20¢ a round and you need to buy a new gun.
Yup, marketing school graduates at their best.
I see this aimed at the "long range" .22 guys. Or for NRL guys. I can see it doing better for stuff like that if it's even allowed in competition but for being a "better" .22 lr it's probably gonna be a total dud because it's gonna be more expensive and require a whole new gun to chamber it. It does seem like a neat concept but the people will speak with their wallet.
Good video, thanks.
So it's just an updated version of the 22 WRF.
I wonder what would happen if you tried to fire a .21 in a 22lr gun?
It would go bang, no pressure problems, probably just terrible accuracy.