the 17 super mag is still warm in the grave, and Winchester is going to send this one in right behind it. Here is an idea, make cheaper,faster and more accurate ammo for the 100 million .22s that are out there. Now that will be a game changer
with the power of the 22 it just doesn't work. All the major ammo makers have tried it. They're all junk. Sure any 22 centerfire can replace it, but not as cheaply. I mean .222, .223, the hornet, all can be loaded subsonic, or match the speed of the LR but you have a larger case and a primer.
@@gradyhernandez4699 I think if the 222 Magnum had been introduced first, the grand old plain .222 Rem probably wouldn't have been so popular. But yeh, we could do an entire series of cartridges that Should've, Could've but didn't. Some of them it wasn't the cartridge's fault, just bad timing with competing brands or the buying public wasn't convinced. Just since 1980 would be quite a list.
The reason 17 WSM became non-existent is the post Covid housing boom. It was invented to make use of 27 caliber powder blank brass used in the nail guns that are used to nail lumber to concrete. When 17 WSM came out in 2012 the construction industry hadn't recovered from the global financial crisis so there was a glut of .27 powder blanks. We will see cheap 17 WSM ammo again and probably sooner rather than later.
I feel like the 17 wsm didn't get a fair shake. The b-mag was a turd and was pretty much the only rifle available for it. If Marlin, Savage, Ruger etc. Would have put out good quality rifles for it I think it could be a very popular round.
LOL so will the rest of us. It's interesting to read the history of the .22 rimfires. They were out there when My great, great, granddaddy in the 1890's couldn't afford one...
It's about getting ahead of the no-lead legislation that is showing up in various blue state legislatures. Impracticality has never slowed this kind of thinking down (EVs as an example) so Winchester is looking to stack the deck in their favor if lead bans expand further across the country. In no way agree with it of course...
5 Reasons 21 Sharp will fail: 1. Ammo costs more than .22LR 2. Ammo costs more than .22LR 3. Cannot be shot out of the bajillion .22LR rifles already owned 4. Ammo costs more than .22LR 5. .17HMR
The main reason 21 sharp was created is because California banned lead remfire ammunition. Considering the fact that the vast majority of gun owners don’t live in California, and we don’t have to deal with those BS laws, not many people are going to pay the high price of the ammunition. Let alone buy a new rifle to use it.
@@andrewslagle1974 It is restricted in California, Washington, Wisconsin and Minnesota, Lead fishing sinkers are banned in a number of places and the list is growing. That's the reality.
I don't know Ron. I call BS on the Ammo manufacture's saying they can't make a decent bullet for the 22lr at a cost-effective price. Winchester doesn't seem to be able to make a decent 22lr cartridge full stop.
Funny. It was good once. The subs in the blue box used to be good. And I have a couple of bricks of vintage power points that are particularly accurate out of my old BSA Sportsman.
We used to get Australian-made Winchester .22LR ammunition here in New Zealand. It was great, then the factory closed and we got US-made Winchester ammunition instead. I think it's fair to say there were some QC issues!
@@mbnz0174 Yeah I always wondered why people called winchester trash ammo but I was living off the supply of locally made winchester power points and subsonics, the geelong factory shut down and the american stuff is garbage in comparison. Still have about 8 boxes of subsonics and 15 boxes of powerpoints.
@@mbnz0174 All I can get hold of in the UK is Australian made Winchester ATMO. 6 gn difference in weight and advertised as sub at 1030 fps. Most go supersonic, as you say QC is appalling.
Back in the 60's The new .22 Winchester Magnum rimfire will make all ur .22 LR guns obsolete!!! Improved ballistics with jacketed bullets, no heel, more speed, more power, flatter trajectory... Almost 70 years after We STILL cant see .22 WMR as prolific as the .22 LR and without being 3 times the price
People forget that before the 22 WMR, 22 winchester rimfire was a thing. It's the non-magnum version of 22 WMR, non-heeled bullet and everything. They're reinventing a wheel that the same company addressed 130 years ago, and all for a dumb reason.
idk where your getting your 22 WMR for so much but i can buy a box of 50 rounds of 32 grain HP for $17 a box, my 22LR CCI stingers are about $10-12 a box of 50
@@jasyamahaIn the video he expressly says that he doesn’t believe it would have been developed at all except for regulations against lead ammo. He may list other potential upsides, but the root cause is the root cause.
I was mildly impressed when I thought that target was 100 yards away. that cartridge is going the way of the 30 Super carry, 308 Marlin Express, 45 Gap and so many other cartridges that were answers to questions no one asked.
They should have named it: .21 STUPID! Cuz those will be the ones falling for this bullshite! ALL YOUNG PEOPLE, WITH ZERO EXPERIENCE IN THE HISTORY OF CALIBERS!
My thoughts exactly if it is not common on every store shelf I'm not buying it. They can't keep up with the classics have been almost 4 years since I have been able to shoot my 375. Screw the next best thing because it will not be long and it will be stuck in the safe with my 22 savage high power obsolete. If you want something you can get ammo for every 10th year jump on board
Myra Gun Shop in Broken Hill NSW Australia experimented with .22 LR in 21 cal barrels. He claimed the set up produced velocities and performances similar to a 22 Magnum. This was 50 years ago. He also purchased primed 22 mag cases from the Winchester factory and necked them down to .17 when the cal was unheard of in Australia. He was at the forefront in the 17 K Hornet development for our fox shooters, some of whom shot up to 50 foxes a night.
@@kathrynleaser5093The federal government is the single worst polluter in the U.S. Being chastised and restricted by the worst of the worst is, well, weird.
@@kathrynleaser5093 lead is bad for birds fish and mammals(your a mammal). You already can't hunt ducks with lead shot due to the grave effects that lead has in aquarian ecosystems. And even if it is not signed into law reducing the amount of lead we handle, and output into the things we eat is a good thing. We make sure we hunt responsibly and this is one of the things we must do. -Jeb
Tens of thousands of rifles and handguns in .22 LR, machinery long since amortized to manufacture .22 LR cartridges, loads of experience with .22 LR for every shooter that's ever pulled a trigger, and inventory of .22 LR in every bait shop, drug store, soda fountain, and shoe store in the nation (well, almost) is nearly impossible to overcome unless you have .220 Swift performance at the cost of a CB cap (well, almost again - but you get the idea). We all love a better mousetrap, but it's almost unimaginable that an interloper will displace the .22 rimfire's established base. I'm really looking forward to the argument on its behalf, especially considering that the Norma .22 ECO-Speed round hits about 1,700 f/s in a standard bolt action or semi-auto .22 LR chamber with the same weight bullet.
@@goodnewseverybody739 thing about a niche means it has a place, a niche if you will. don't like it? don't buy it. some poor sucker in California might be quite happy to have an option, no need to rain on his parade.
Norma Eco power is 24 grains at 1706 fps already and still has a 0.80 B.C so its right on the heels of it, cheaper to buy at 9.99 for 50 and you don't need a new rifle.
That ammo is not happy in semi automatics though, it cycles, but some rounds felt like the rim split or something else went wrong. In my bolt action it's fine. But with .22 the reality is, as far as accuracy, slower bullets are more accurate, especially subsonic. It's going to have to be some company coming up with a lighter power lighter weight bullet, it'll happen eventually.
And all the jackwagons that moved to Colorado from California have made it unrecognizable. I'll be leaving Colorado in retirement thanks to all the Libtards that screwed everything up.
A lot of California's sold their property there, moved here to Colorado, brought all their wacky ideas, and ruined our state, too. The only real difference between the two states is that California has beaches and ocean views. We used to have our game and fish people come to our schools, teach us how to shoot, and then go outside and actually practice. Yes, at school. With real ammo. Like the Bible says, if you train up your children correctly, when they are old they will not depart from it. Prov 22:6. Ah, the good old days.
Griping Colorado? Tge horde of locusts wrecked the housing market, blew the road conditions into the ozone layerabd boisted the crime rate that been pretty low fir a libg time. I failed to mention the proliferation of WOKE values spreading like an epidemix.
The California condor thing is highly questionable. The lab that published the report that claim is based on refuses to release their raw data. I used to work in the same department, and all I can say is I'm dubious in the absence of the raw data.
Could very well have been their socialistic thinking, as they certainly love to skew results, and often times, fabricate "research information", from thin air.
It’s total nonsense. Lead has been banned for decades for hunting and the levels in the condors hasn’t changed. Clearly, lead from hunting was never an issue. The lead being ingested is part of the environment.
I think the 22 lr owners can sleep well tonight. This gun will be obsolete in 5 years. Ypu can get better accuracy in a nicer rifle and cheaper ammo by looking at the high end pellet rifles.
@@reddog7024 He does explain that it's a combination of certain states banning lead in 22lr and simplified manufacturing. It's just a shame they didn't troubleshoot the cartridge better before debuting it. In time, the cartridge will also become cheaper.
I really don’t understand who at Winchester wants to keep releasing new cartridges and not support them in the market. They’ve been doing this since the WSMs and every new cartridge has flatlined besides maybe 350 legend.
Shout out to 350 legend though. It's available at Walmart and it's effective, there are plenty of guns chambered for it. I'd call that a successful cartridge introduction that other cartridges should aspire to.
The WSM line has been well received. The Remington Short Magnum cartridge made more sense for working in short action. But Win was just a couple months behind Rem and out-advertised their short magnum. Rem as usual did nothing.
Hampshire, England. Using .22LR CCI HP subs in Ruger 10/22 with suppressor. Magic! Cheap to run, and doesn't piss-off the neighbours. Squirrels, magpies, rabbits, rats - they just hate it. Sighted-in for 50 yards, runs out of steam at about 100 yards, and that requires an understanding of hold-over; but that's further away than most shooters like to think. Do I want a .21 barking out 140 db? Hell no. That really would piss-off the neighbours (English spelling of neighbours/neighbors). And at the likely new ammo price? Er, no!
I see this as a flop,just like the 17mach 2- when it was the rage I bought a ruger 17/22& can't even find ammo anymore?? Another waste of money! Capt J
On winchester ammo quality control: I recently found a .44 mag bullet seated upside down (yes, pointy end down) in the brass casing. A ranger officer nearby said he never saw that before. There's a new one for ya.😅
In .22? The Super X aren't bad, but the bulk are absolute trash. Their Lake City productions have been my favorite over the last 20 years. M80 and M193 really loves my barrels. Never cared for the Federal Lake City (or my barrels didn't) Their biggest short-coming in my eyes is they need some better hunting bullets/loads. They have good powders, primers are fine (though like all primers, finicky) they just don't have any world beating projectiles. Brass is good quality, though the primer pocket can be a bit tight.
Damn! I haven't seen accuracy like that since my grandfather's old target 22! It had a stock that looked like it was carved from a 2x6 and a barrel that was an inch thick. That rifle could drive a nail. This thing is amazing! I want one!
Ron, I shoot 22 LR at 100 and 200 yds outdoors. The 22 LR will blow the barn doors of of the 21 Sharp in regards to BC. wind deflection and the 21 Sharp would be close to going trans sonic at 100 yds and ruin accuracy. Indoors the 21 Sharp will be supersonic at 50 ft or yds and noise will be a factor. Shooting Eley, Lapua, RWS and European target ammo will be easy on the ears and the target from 50 ft to 200 yds. The determining factor will be how many ammo companies and rifle makers will get behind this foray
Great video @Ron Spomer Outdoors ! Stay tuned as I am awaiting my rifle from Savage Arms! [I have their Mark II Heavy Barrel Version on order]. Too funny, as I am 62 years young and yet the vast majority of the comments on my videos have been NEGATIVE in nature and after looking at my video's analytics, the vast majority are from folks in the age bracket from 50 - 65 years old. Oh well, only time will tell! Regarding the Garmin Xero C1 Chronograph, I have found that locating the chrono just to the side of the muzzle [within 2"] greatly enhances its ability to capture the velocities. And make sure that you have the UPPER velocity range [1,500fps and above] selected on the Garmin "rifle" setting.
I feel like this is going to go the same way as 17hm2 and for the same reasons. Jacketed and lead free bullets are prohibitively expensive and dont offer enough of an advantage compared to plain lead swaged bullets.
I agree, however I really wish the the mach 2 would have gained more steam/popularity/publicity as it really is a remarkable round for squirrel. I am a big fan of it myself and believe it or not it is very easy to find around me. Most local stores amazingly seem to carry it. I have zero interest in this new flash in the pan rimfire.
@@tsechejak7598 no...? you do realize regular rifle rounds are copper jacketed and plenty of 22 lr are copper washed, the barrel is still made out of steel like a regular rifle round its even lower pressure so it wont wear out things as fast.
@@joshp2542 they did but haven't in a while same with Centerion it wasn't ballistic tip ammo remember 5mm is 20 cal same as the 204 bullets I've owned a 5mm since the early 80s taken many ohio groundhogs with it
Thank you for this video. I seriously appreciate the time and effort you put into this and all your videos. Excellent presentation! Long on facts, analysis, and conclusions, short on B.S.. This may be good for the young guys, or for those who are shooting in States that have outlawed or will soon outlaw lead ammo. I have enough ammo for my .22 Hornet to last the rest of my life, plus plenty left over for my Son when the day comes. So, to all concerned, I wish the best of luck. May your hunts be safe and may your aim be true.
If the caliber dictates a new barrel or rifle I can't see shooters taking this added large cost on. Also every gun manufacturer would have to be one board. I've seen this happen to the 17HMR Mk11 and the 17WSM with improved performance drop into obscurity due to the lack of rifle manufacturers and ammo range. For a rimfire I love the idea of the 21 Sharp but I feel that if your State does not mandate non lead then I can't see it taking off. Having said that the non lead movement is growing so I could be wrong. Great video Ron and thanks for sharing!
You know, there IS another option to this. There are MILLIONS of people shooting many tens or maybe even hundreds of millions of 22 L.R. STRICTLY AT TARGETS! Never shooting a single animal. There is NO REASON that we can not ban together and DEMAND that the standard lead bullets or copper plated lead bullets (no exposed lead) be allowed at shooting ranges and informal target shooting. I am still shooting my fathers Mossberg 151m 22 semi-auto 22 made in the same era as me! it is pretty fussy about the ammo that it will shoot now. It will ONLY shoot standard velocity ammo. There is NO WAY that ANYONE would be able to screw on a new barrel and have it work. And "tinkering" with it to make it work with those 21 caliber super velocity rounds would cost so much that it would not even be funny, with NO guarantee that it would ever work. I am nearly 70, and I have NO INTEREST in buying another rifle to put holes in paper. The government IS SUPPOSED TO WORK FOR US. NOT US OBEYING THEIR DECREES!
@@gregdenton5282lmao are you serious? There has to be a staggering difference in the number of shots fired at ranges verus in the field. Of course California would make a decision that doesnt even make sense.
The reason they kill birds more often than mammals is attributed to the action of the gizzard! The stones in the gizzard grind up the food so the bird can digest it. However, the stones also grind up the lead into finer granules, therefore making it more absorbable, which, in turn, makes it much more toxic!! My question is, why did they make it a flat tipped bullet, rather than pointed? There is no primer in the center of the case, therefore, they don't need the flat point which should increase the velocity sightly!
Yes. It looks awesome. Then you try to get ammo - out of stock and $0.18 per round. I've never paid more than $0.07 per round for .22LR. Unless required by law, the .21 Sharp makes no sense.
That seems like the future of the firearms industry -- wasting time and money creating things which are unnecessary but for the unending ratchet of garbage laws.
Great and informative video! When you compared energy @ 50 yards, you actually highlighted the 60 yard bracket for the 21 Sharp. At 50 yards, according to your chart, the 21 Sharp actually has 107 ft/lb of energy, vs. the 22 Long Rifle @ 103 ft/lb.
I just bought a box of .22 Hornet from MidwayUSA for almost $80 for a box of 50 rounds (Winchester 46 gr HP). But I've been trying to get unprimed brass for over 3 years.
@KevinSchwinkendorf that's wild I thought Australia had expensive ammo since when I google search your 22 and 223 and 308 rounds are so much cheaper but that must be the case maybe it's an availability thing $65 for a box of 50 22-hornet. Though Winchester cost a fortune $110 for 50
@@CLFS I think it's a combination of things. Crime is up (thanks to democrats who refuse to punish criminals) so gun sales are up, especially new first time gun buyers. That means demand for ammo is up, but the USA is also resupplying Ukraine with military ammo - not just missiles, but small arms ammo as well (.223/5.56 NATO, 9mm). Winchester operates Lake City Arsenal, which makes military small arms ammo, so production is at capacity. Also, new civilian gun owners are buying guns for self defense, so that means AR-15s and handguns, primarily .223 Rem, 9mm, .45 ACP, .40 S&W, .380 ACP. They are making the most popular hunting ammo (.30-06, .270, .308, .30-30, and .243) but anything more obscure (like .22 Hornet, forget about it). Oh yes, they are making a lot of the most highly overrated cartridge in American history, 6.5 Creedmoor. But not .22 Hornet...
Just as an FYI, I have the Winchester wildcat (I know this isn’t the wildcat) and it is hands down my favorite gun that I own. It’s light, it’s accurate. It’s so much fun to shoot. For $200 you can’t have much more fun (legally).
This kinda reminds me of 360 Buckhammer. The 360 is objectively slightly better than 30-30, but unless you live in a straightwall state, and especially if you already own a 30-30, there's no point sacrificing ammo availability to change to 360. Likewise, this does seem to be a similar improvement compared to 22LR, but that is so ridiculously ubiquitous that unless you actually live in a lead free state (because let's face it, CA is the first, but they won't be the last) there's no point, especially as you almost certainly already have a 22LR. That said, if ammo availability and pricing for either 360 and/or 21 ever came close to 30-30 and 22, it'd possibly be worth switching just so you've got less limitations on where you can shoot/hunt.
The logic of them making new barrels for existing rifles for easy swap, depending if this cartridge stands the test of time makes me glad I bought a 10/22 takedown.
I like where their heads at but I don't understand why they couldn't just shorten a 22wmr case rather than going to a 21. I would certainly find it interesting to hear from winchester themselves about that.
That already exists. The 22 WMR was developed from the 22 WRF. It's been around since 1890. That's right. Winchester _already_ invented this wheel over a century ago.
The .22 AUTOMATIC WINCHESTER. For the 1900s Winchester auto was inside lubed the length of the long rifle, was smokeless when the LR was too dirty to work in autos
@@rogermorrill4700 It was the Model 1903 Winchester Auto and it was a mild success. Remington tried the same thing with their own .22 cartridge in the Model 1916 rifle and it was a failure. If you have one of the Remington's, expect to pay over $100+ for a box of ammo. Looks like the remaining ammo for the 1903 is $20 to $40 a box, in a quick search I just did.
Back in the 1970s, as a kid, I asked a question. "If the .22 WMR uses a non-heeled bullet, why can't we do the same with the .22LR? Either shorten the .22 WMR or make a smaller bullet for the .22 LR?" I was told, that's a wildcat thing, don't worry about it. So, I didn't worry about it. Now, 50 years later, it's a thing. Maybe I should have worried...
.21 rimfire,.410 2 3/4" and .38 short,.....my new go to 3 gun battery. Now I just need a 1978 Cadillac with a 350 diesel that can't accept a turbo I'll be set.
Back in the 1950's our old house had lead based paint on everything. The windows in the house were all painted with lead based paint. Well as a little kid I liked to chew the paint off the window sills. To make along story short I ate a lot of lead based paint from 1951 to around 1960 something. Never bothered me one little bit. Lol.
This is hopefully a gooden.n more on it than been out yet. Main thing I want to know.. Is ammo n rifle being shipped now? [ 2 to 4 yrs sucks which has been norm from them ] Also barrel replacements for there Wildcat semi auto n Xpert bolt..[ which took 3 yrs to finally see one in my area,not to mention 5+ to get a extra magazine for yesterday. Yes 10/22 mags work in em but easier to unload the Wildcat/Xpert]
Agreed. I had the same issue with reloaded 45-70 ammo that was just in the 1700 range. No reading as the rounds were over the 1700 FPS. Changed the speed range, worked like a charm after that.
Winchester does it again. After receiving a couple of .22s from my Dad's estate, I bought a box of Winchester black box M22 ammo after running out of some cheap Thunderbolt and some Federal I had around. The M22 wouldn't load in the cylinder of my S&W K22 Model 17-3. At least half of them wouldn't load. A quarter with really tight, and were a real problem getting out after firing. Only about a quarter of them would load. They fired more or less OK in my High Standard. Still there were a few failures to eject. The only thing they worked OK in was my Marlin 39A. Since then, I bought a bucket or bullets, the Golden .22LR from Remington. Initially, they did well, fit the S&W, but I have had some failures to eject on the High Standard. Federal seems to be the only ones that are firing consistently.
I think a better solution to use copper bullets would be to shorten the 22 magnum case to the same length as 22lr. It could be used in 22 magnum guns and your existing 22lr guns could be rechambered to use it.
Winchester's oldest and most consistent characteristic- failure to support their own proprietary Chamberings/ Cartridges. This Corporate philosophy embodies the spirit of PT Barnum- "Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the average American..." or words to that effect
I picked up 17HSM ammo and the salesman explained it wasn't 17HMR. I bought about 30 boxes before the gun was even availeable. It's an ok cartridge but so many great ones out there. Better than a 22 mag but still behind the 204. It does fit nicely in the cabinet though.
The others were designed to be options that occupied niches alongside the .22 LR. This is designed to replace the .22 entirely where the .22 is not a viable option. Also, as a straight-walled cartridge, it is more economical to produce.
@davidherbst but there's literally no reason to buy it unless you are hunting with a 22 in California pointless California is 45th in guns per capita Only 15% of people own guns
I'm definitely inenterested in the .21 Sharp. Hopefully aftermarket barrels will be available for the Ruger 10/22 very soon and I will buy one of those for sure. I actually have more interest in this new rimfire than anything eles that has been introduced over the years. I can see the manufacturers view as seeing the potential for this product. Heeled bullets are not ideal for any serious purpose and loading them on the factory level can be wasteful and time consuming due to their construction. Actually a good revolver in .21 Sharp might be a better small game pistol than the .22 WMR. That long case leads to sticky extraction, excessive muzzle blast and quite a bit of unburned power in the barrel. Count me in!
For those who need this, I hope it works out well and it proves to be a good cartridge! No reason to poo on the 21 sharps.. it’s the .22 lr for those who are limited to copper bullets.
Lol not even close. The 17 wsm is 3000 fps. 17 wsm is the best rim fire u can get. The problem is the ammo supply is garbage. Hopefully Winchester starts to make more ammo for it because nothing can touch that little bullet
@@nyjetsfan4455 you completely missed the point, he meant another wizzbang rimfire that probably wont be produced in adequate amounts, and will probably get cancelled after a few years because they never gave it any support.
Is the 21 lr? (Edit later after comments): I forgot it was called a 21 sharp 😆. It's an interesting little plink option. I'll test a box later. The tip is interesting
Darn I’ve filled all my excess ammo storage with the greatest round since sliced bread the vaunted 30 super carry so no room for 21 sharps in my place.
No thanks, I have a 17 mach 2 that is the best small game round ever devised by man but I can hardly find ammo for it. The .17 WMR is the same way. When ammo makers start making ammo for existing guns, I may consider something new. This 21 Sharp will never catch on enough to get major ammo production at a reasonable price. I have probably a dozen firearms in .22lr and enough ammo to last the rest of my life . I think I will just stick with it and my air rifles. I CERTAINLY will not be rebarreling any of them to this round.. lead, like carbon is naturally occouring in nature. It is nothing new. I'm not too scared of it unless it is moving several hundred feet per second.
Love your vids Ron. I have a ton of respect for what you do. I just can't help but feel this is yet another way for manufacturers to drive up ammo prices for such a small difference?
Really.. do something about .17 WSM availability before you put more on your plate! My .17 wsm used to shoot like that but its a moot point because there is no ammo available for it and being rimfire its very lot specific even if you can find some its hit and miss for accuracy. If it's anything like .17wsm don't expect Hornady to jump onboard and make ammo for it - seems as though they see the 17wsm as "the competition" to their .17HMR They are slowly burying the chambering by choosing to stop supporting it and flooding the shelves with their own .17HMR. If Eley or Lapua started to offer boolots for the .21 chambering at a decent price and is available then it really would take off.
Idk about anything from winchester or browning. They didn't get any other ammo manufacturers to get on board with 6.8 western but now a rimfire cartridge that will group with copper. The 17hmr will do that already but it's 15.5 grain. If other manufacturers can get on board then it will be a great round. Western tree squirrels are pretty tough
This 21 will be much easier to produce than the 17 WSM, it's based off of an actual rimfire rifle cartridge, not a nail gun cartridge. It might catch on. The manufacturers can produce it by simply slapping a 21 caliber barrel on the existing 22lr platform. If it turns out to be inherently accurate like the 17 HMR , less expensive ammo,p and it is avaliable from many manufacturers, peple will buy it.
You've probably already noticed it, but comparing their respective energy readings, you compared 50 yds for the .22 & 60 yds for the .21. (No biggie, but pointing out it for future reference) Awesome video! Hope you're feeling better !
Whenever shooting it may or may not register on your Garmin because of how close your target is it does use radar. Not saying it is just an idea of why it wasn't recording
the 17 super mag is still warm in the grave, and Winchester is going to send this one in right behind it. Here is an idea, make cheaper,faster and more accurate ammo for the 100 million .22s that are out there. Now that will be a game changer
@@saltymofo5870 I noticed that there's new calibers popping up. I still
Like the 222 Remington.
with the power of the 22 it just doesn't work. All the major ammo makers have tried it. They're all junk. Sure any 22 centerfire can replace it, but not as cheaply. I mean .222, .223, the hornet, all can be loaded subsonic, or match the speed of the LR but you have a larger case and a primer.
@@gradyhernandez4699 I think if the 222 Magnum had been introduced first, the grand old plain .222 Rem probably wouldn't have been so popular. But yeh, we could do an entire series of cartridges that Should've, Could've but didn't. Some of them it wasn't the cartridge's fault, just bad timing with competing brands or the buying public wasn't convinced. Just since 1980 would be quite a list.
The reason 17 WSM became non-existent is the post Covid housing boom. It was invented to make use of 27 caliber powder blank brass used in the nail guns that are used to nail lumber to concrete. When 17 WSM came out in 2012 the construction industry hadn't recovered from the global financial crisis so there was a glut of .27 powder blanks. We will see cheap 17 WSM ammo again and probably sooner rather than later.
I feel like the 17 wsm didn't get a fair shake. The b-mag was a turd and was pretty much the only rifle available for it. If Marlin, Savage, Ruger etc. Would have put out good quality rifles for it I think it could be a very popular round.
"It's like 22LR but expensive" lol I think I'll pass
Me, too! Even the 22 Magnum isn't worthwhile, IMHO. Best wishes to you!!
LOL so will the rest of us. It's interesting to read the history of the .22 rimfires. They were out there when My great, great, granddaddy in the 1890's couldn't afford one...
Everything in prototype form is expensive. The first digital watches were tens of thousands of dollars when they first came out.
😂🤣
It's about getting ahead of the no-lead legislation that is showing up in various blue state legislatures. Impracticality has never slowed this kind of thinking down (EVs as an example) so Winchester is looking to stack the deck in their favor if lead bans expand further across the country. In no way agree with it of course...
5 Reasons 21 Sharp will fail:
1. Ammo costs more than .22LR
2. Ammo costs more than .22LR
3. Cannot be shot out of the bajillion .22LR rifles already owned
4. Ammo costs more than .22LR
5. .17HMR
The main reason 21 sharp was created is because California banned lead remfire ammunition. Considering the fact that the vast majority of gun owners don’t live in California, and we don’t have to deal with those BS
laws, not many people are going to pay the high price of the ammunition. Let alone buy a new rifle to use it.
🤣
Pretty much!
You would think Winchester considered this.
1q@@user-pm3lu7vw5l
It will have to overcome nearly 140 years of 22 LR popularity, and that is not likely.
The absurd thing is that winchester already developed the non-heeled 22 WRF 130 years ago. It's the parent cartridge from which 22 WMR was developed.
Idk? A niche cartridge that probably cost way more then 22lr and is only made by Winchester ,how could it possibly fail 😂😂😂😂
All it takes is a swipe of the pen and the instructions go out to the wardens. Over in a day.
@@blackbirdpie217 THE DEMOCRAP PARTY THERE YOU GO!
@@andrewslagle1974 It is restricted in California, Washington, Wisconsin and Minnesota, Lead fishing sinkers are banned in a number of places and the list is growing. That's the reality.
I've got so much .22 I'll never run out! Funny thing is, i have not bought any since i was in my 20s! Im 61 now. People have given me all of it.
that's impressive, I've gone through a thousand rounds in just a few weeks.
My professional recommendation is that you urgently need to spend more time at the range
You'll have to get a belt-fed .22.
Everyone I know hordes theirs since the great ammo shortage.
@@exothermal.sprocket i like that idea!
I don't know Ron. I call BS on the Ammo manufacture's saying they can't make a decent bullet for the 22lr at a cost-effective price. Winchester doesn't seem to be able to make a decent 22lr cartridge full stop.
100% nail on the head. Winchester rimfire sucks. Period.
Funny.
It was good once.
The subs in the blue box used to be good.
And I have a couple of bricks of vintage power points that are particularly accurate out of my old BSA Sportsman.
We used to get Australian-made Winchester .22LR ammunition here in New Zealand. It was great, then the factory closed and we got US-made Winchester ammunition instead. I think it's fair to say there were some QC issues!
@@mbnz0174 Yeah I always wondered why people called winchester trash ammo but I was living off the supply of locally made winchester power points and subsonics, the geelong factory shut down and the american stuff is garbage in comparison.
Still have about 8 boxes of subsonics and 15 boxes of powerpoints.
@@mbnz0174 All I can get hold of in the UK is Australian made Winchester ATMO. 6 gn difference in weight and advertised as sub at 1030 fps. Most go supersonic, as you say QC is appalling.
Back in the 60's
The new .22 Winchester Magnum rimfire will make all ur .22 LR guns obsolete!!!
Improved ballistics with jacketed bullets, no heel, more speed, more power, flatter trajectory...
Almost 70 years after
We STILL cant see .22 WMR as prolific as the .22 LR and without being 3 times the price
People forget that before the 22 WMR, 22 winchester rimfire was a thing. It's the non-magnum version of 22 WMR, non-heeled bullet and everything. They're reinventing a wheel that the same company addressed 130 years ago, and all for a dumb reason.
idk where your getting your 22 WMR for so much but i can buy a box of 50 rounds of 32 grain HP for $17 a box, my 22LR CCI stingers are about $10-12 a box of 50
@@PSUQDPICHQIEIWC yup
Spoiler alert, stop reading if you don't want the answer. The answer is .21 sharp.
100 percent
So re-barrel all my .22s just to satisfy CA? Hard no.
Those lead environmental protection laws are coming to all 50 states. Just like lead shot for waterfowl, lead bullets for hunting will be banned.
I’m blown away at how many of you chose the comment before even watching the damn video. It shoots out of a 22lr too knucklehead
Yup then they will be like copper or whatever bullet they use is toxic as well 😂😂 all metal is toxic to anything is eaten lol
It's not about California, listen to the video again.
@@jasyamahaIn the video he expressly says that he doesn’t believe it would have been developed at all except for regulations against lead ammo.
He may list other potential upsides, but the root cause is the root cause.
I was mildly impressed when I thought that target was 100 yards away. that cartridge is going the way of the 30 Super carry, 308 Marlin Express, 45 Gap and so many other cartridges that were answers to questions no one asked.
Or even 50 yards.
They should have named it the ".21 New Coke" since it's going to go over about as well.
Yep, still 49 normal states.
They should have named it:
.21 STUPID! Cuz those will be the ones falling for this bullshite! ALL YOUNG PEOPLE, WITH ZERO EXPERIENCE IN THE HISTORY OF CALIBERS!
Oh great, a new rimfire that will have zero ammo support. No thanks.
and . . . at .25 per round, no thanks.
Amen Matt.....the rimfire of the 224 Valkyrie. I bought into that suckers game thanks to 2 huge shills on YT. What a costly mistake
My thoughts exactly if it is not common on every store shelf I'm not buying it. They can't keep up with the classics have been almost 4 years since I have been able to shoot my 375. Screw the next best thing because it will not be long and it will be stuck in the safe with my 22 savage high power obsolete. If you want something you can get ammo for every 10th year jump on board
@@kevinroberts9394 well said Kevin
The eventual transition away from lead bullets will be helped along the way as you can still shoot 21 Sharp in your 22LR.
Myra Gun Shop in Broken Hill NSW Australia experimented with .22 LR in 21 cal barrels. He claimed the set up produced velocities and performances similar to a 22 Magnum. This was 50 years ago. He also purchased primed 22 mag cases from the Winchester factory and necked them down to .17 when the cal was unheard of in Australia. He was at the forefront in the 17 K Hornet development for our fox shooters, some of whom shot up to 50 foxes a night.
Extruder barrels are still awesome btw
Ill stick with my 22LR. Thanks for giving it a review, but im pretty sure its gonna flop.
Oh and btw,
The Government can pound sand.
that shit is junk, does not live up to what they say......
CA is the root of all evil. Ruins the country for the other 49 states.
@@kathrynleaser5093The federal government is the single worst polluter in the U.S. Being chastised and restricted by the worst of the worst is, well, weird.
@@kathrynleaser5093 lead is bad for birds fish and mammals(your a mammal).
You already can't hunt ducks with lead shot due to the grave effects that lead has in aquarian ecosystems.
And even if it is not signed into law reducing the amount of lead we handle, and output into the things we eat is a good thing.
We make sure we hunt responsibly and this is one of the things we must do.
-Jeb
Shut up, Jeb.
@@jebkermen6087
CCI makes a 22 bullet that is not lead it's 21 grains and it's going 1850 FPS.
Copper-22? I have some, haven't used any of it.
Was going to mention this if no one else did. Actually cycles in my Marlin Model 60 and Beretta M9-22, but not my Henry US Survival.
Winchester offers same I believe.
N a Tin in both 22 LR n Mag. Thing is both higher priced than the leads.
Ive used these, great little round :)
Do they make tungsten for. 22 LR? Just curious.
Tens of thousands of rifles and handguns in .22 LR, machinery long since amortized to manufacture .22 LR cartridges, loads of experience with .22 LR for every shooter that's ever pulled a trigger, and inventory of .22 LR in every bait shop, drug store, soda fountain, and shoe store in the nation (well, almost) is nearly impossible to overcome unless you have .220 Swift performance at the cost of a CB cap (well, almost again - but you get the idea).
We all love a better mousetrap, but it's almost unimaginable that an interloper will displace the .22 rimfire's established base. I'm really looking forward to the argument on its behalf, especially considering that the Norma .22 ECO-Speed round hits about 1,700 f/s in a standard bolt action or semi-auto .22 LR chamber with the same weight bullet.
True all that trouble to run a whimpy all copper round. It’s niche for restrictive states.
Better hope the tree huggers don’t decide.22 LR is poisoning their newest endangered species.
EVERYTHING you just said applies to 21 sharp. All the infrastructure which the .22lr benefits from, the 21 sharp also does.
@@goodnewseverybody739 thing about a niche means it has a place, a niche if you will. don't like it? don't buy it. some poor sucker in California might be quite happy to have an option, no need to rain on his parade.
@@michaelwhite9199 think this video was a signal!
Norma Eco power is 24 grains at 1706 fps already and still has a 0.80 B.C so its right on the heels of it, cheaper to buy at 9.99 for 50 and you don't need a new rifle.
@@WayStedYou It even chambers in some of them. Not mine, though. Trash ammo.
Agree, tried it last year. Trouble is getting hold of any in the UK.
Used the RWS in my Anschutz and they were very poor at 3Oyds and worse further out.
0.80 b.c. value? I believe you should move the decimal place to it's correct position and also state which b.c. function
That ammo is not happy in semi automatics though, it cycles, but some rounds felt like the rim split or something else went wrong. In my bolt action it's fine. But with .22 the reality is, as far as accuracy, slower bullets are more accurate, especially subsonic. It's going to have to be some company coming up with a lighter power lighter weight bullet, it'll happen eventually.
No 21 in my future.
I live in CA. This state used to be a paradise. Sucks now😢
A state of fruits & nuts...now illegals on fed paycheck, drugs & fruits & nuts if ya continue to vote for socialism.
Because the Government is the #1 Employer.
And all the jackwagons that moved to Colorado from California have made it unrecognizable. I'll be leaving Colorado in retirement thanks to all the Libtards that screwed everything up.
A lot of California's sold their property there, moved here to Colorado, brought all their wacky ideas, and ruined our state, too. The only real difference between the two states is that California has beaches and ocean views. We used to have our game and fish people come to our schools, teach us how to shoot, and then go outside and actually practice. Yes, at school. With real ammo. Like the Bible says, if you train up your children correctly, when they are old they will not depart from it. Prov 22:6. Ah, the good old days.
Griping Colorado? Tge horde of locusts wrecked the housing market, blew the road conditions into the ozone layerabd boisted the crime rate that been pretty low fir a libg time. I failed to mention the proliferation of WOKE values spreading like an epidemix.
The California condor thing is highly questionable. The lab that published the report that claim is based on refuses to release their raw data. I used to work in the same department, and all I can say is I'm dubious in the absence of the raw data.
Could very well have been their socialistic thinking, as they certainly love to skew results, and often times, fabricate "research information", from thin air.
It’s total nonsense. Lead has been banned for decades for hunting and the levels in the condors hasn’t changed. Clearly, lead from hunting was never an issue. The lead being ingested is part of the environment.
I think the 22 lr owners can sleep well tonight. This gun will be obsolete in 5 years. Ypu can get better accuracy in a nicer rifle and cheaper ammo by looking at the high end pellet rifles.
Kamala will ban 22lr ammo sale and ownership and use, thats the problem here! Winchester is starting to piss me off!
Haven’t they and Lead in air rifles yet with more bullshit like Lead is as harmful as weapons grade plutonium. They’ve already tried in the U.K.
You can get that kind of accuracy out $300 air rifles so I wouldn't use high end, high low end would be more appropriate.
Did anybody actually ask for this?
@@reddog7024 He does explain that it's a combination of certain states banning lead in 22lr and simplified manufacturing. It's just a shame they didn't troubleshoot the cartridge better before debuting it. In time, the cartridge will also become cheaper.
Hello Ron thanks for the update and information .
I really don’t understand who at Winchester wants to keep releasing new cartridges and not support them in the market. They’ve been doing this since the WSMs and every new cartridge has flatlined besides maybe 350 legend.
They are solving a problem that does not exist.
Shout out to 350 legend though. It's available at Walmart and it's effective, there are plenty of guns chambered for it. I'd call that a successful cartridge introduction that other cartridges should aspire to.
The WSM line has been well received. The Remington Short Magnum cartridge made more sense for working in short action. But Win was just a couple months behind Rem and out-advertised their short magnum. Rem as usual did nothing.
What's 350 legend.
Ron,
You compared the .21S at 60 yards, to the .22lr at 50 yards for the energy. The 21S was actually 107 at 50 yrds, not 97.
I noticed this mistake as well.
Yes I saw it too.
How else can it be a review by a biased disinterested curmudgeon if it's not a fair test?
Hampshire, England. Using .22LR CCI HP subs in Ruger 10/22 with suppressor. Magic! Cheap to run, and doesn't piss-off the neighbours. Squirrels, magpies, rabbits, rats - they just hate it. Sighted-in for 50 yards, runs out of steam at about 100 yards, and that requires an understanding of hold-over; but that's further away than most shooters like to think.
Do I want a .21 barking out 140 db? Hell no. That really would piss-off the neighbours (English spelling of neighbours/neighbors). And at the likely new ammo price? Er, no!
I see this as a flop,just like the 17mach 2- when it was the rage I bought a ruger 17/22& can't even find ammo anymore?? Another waste of money! Capt J
On winchester ammo quality control: I recently found a .44 mag bullet seated upside down (yes, pointy end down) in the brass casing. A ranger officer nearby said he never saw that before. There's a new one for ya.😅
I found one too a few months ago. It was a 240 grain JSP 44 magnum round with a nickel plated case. Doubt I ever fire it. I kept it as a curiosity.
I have not used Winchester Ammo for years. They need to fix their reliability issues.
Maybe at some point Winchester will follow Remington's lead and improve their entire ammunition product line, from the cheap to the expensive.
In .22? The Super X aren't bad, but the bulk are absolute trash.
Their Lake City productions have been my favorite over the last 20 years. M80 and M193 really loves my barrels. Never cared for the Federal Lake City (or my barrels didn't)
Their biggest short-coming in my eyes is they need some better hunting bullets/loads. They have good powders, primers are fine (though like all primers, finicky) they just don't have any world beating projectiles. Brass is good quality, though the primer pocket can be a bit tight.
@@mfallen2023 Great assessment. I like people who can present a nuanced approach instead of painting with this broad-brush dismissal attitude online.
I don't see Winchester ammo anywhere I buy .22 ammo.
You’re so goddamn right. Every-time I have used those white box 45ACP always had a malfunction.
Damn! I haven't seen accuracy like that since my grandfather's old target 22! It had a stock that looked like it was carved from a 2x6 and a barrel that was an inch thick. That rifle could drive a nail. This thing is amazing! I want one!
Remind me in 5 years, if still going strong, and plenty of ammo at Cabelas and other local shops, i'll consider it
Just something new to get your money. Hell with California.
protecting majestic birds of prey vital, national symbols you ignore?
@@johncox2865 nah screw lead
The .22 newsom.
They're also looking at Europe. Also wouldn't be surprised if a lead ammo ban on Federal lands occurs.
@@keithprinn720thats a load of bollox.
Ron, I shoot 22 LR at 100 and 200 yds outdoors. The 22 LR will blow the barn doors of of the 21 Sharp in regards to BC. wind deflection and the 21 Sharp would be close to going trans sonic at 100 yds and ruin accuracy. Indoors the 21 Sharp will be supersonic at 50 ft or yds and noise will be a factor. Shooting Eley, Lapua, RWS and European target ammo will be easy on the ears and the target from 50 ft to 200 yds. The determining factor will be how many ammo companies and rifle makers will get behind this foray
They do a 42gr i think so might be comparable to .22lr standard loads
Big thumbs up for the use of splatter targets!
Really like the target shots showing where the bullet impacted the target❤😊
At about 6:00 you talk about trying out .21 Sharp in a .22lr gun. I'm very interested in seeing how that works out.
Accuracy and velocity would be greatly diminished.
Way better accuracy than the past video I saw on the 21 Sharp.
Gonna share shelf space with the 30 Super Carry !
Is their also a 300 ultra mag on that shelf lol
😂
not afan of it myself, but that 30 super carry seems to actually sell.
and 224 valkyrie
It's going to compete for shelf space with the 17Mach2.
Great video @Ron Spomer Outdoors ! Stay tuned as I am awaiting my rifle from Savage Arms! [I have their Mark II Heavy Barrel Version on order]. Too funny, as I am 62 years young and yet the vast majority of the comments on my videos have been NEGATIVE in nature and after looking at my video's analytics, the vast majority are from folks in the age bracket from 50 - 65 years old. Oh well, only time will tell! Regarding the Garmin Xero C1 Chronograph, I have found that locating the chrono just to the side of the muzzle [within 2"] greatly enhances its ability to capture the velocities. And make sure that you have the UPPER velocity range [1,500fps and above] selected on the Garmin "rifle" setting.
I feel like this is going to go the same way as 17hm2 and for the same reasons. Jacketed and lead free bullets are prohibitively expensive and dont offer enough of an advantage compared to plain lead swaged bullets.
I agree, however I really wish the the mach 2 would have gained more steam/popularity/publicity as it really is a remarkable round for squirrel. I am a big fan of it myself and believe it or not it is very easy to find around me. Most local stores amazingly seem to carry it. I have zero interest in this new flash in the pan rimfire.
Norma already has a 1700+ fps 24 grain copper 22lr at approximately the same price...
So what's the point?
I’ll go with that instead, though will it wear out a barrel on a classic Remington or Winchester rifle from the 40s 50s 60s if its copper only?
@@tsechejak7598 no...? you do realize regular rifle rounds are copper jacketed and plenty of 22 lr are copper washed, the barrel is still made out of steel like a regular rifle round its even lower pressure so it wont wear out things as fast.
The point is ballistics and the cost to manufacture a stepped bullet shape. Pay more attention.
@@TheDuckofDoom.I get it. A whole lot of hoopla and crap about nothing.
@@paulellsworth7679 Yet your actions keep demonstrating that you clearly don't get it.
Interesting. But it ain’t no 5mm rem mag. King of the rimfires !!
From what I was told at my local shop remington is bringing the 5mm back plus ballistic tip ammo
I think Aguila makes 5mm mag still
@@joshp2542 they did but haven't in a while same with Centerion it wasn't ballistic tip ammo remember 5mm is 20 cal same as the 204 bullets I've owned a 5mm since the early 80s taken many ohio groundhogs with it
@@waynemayle865 5mm rem ammo 60 bucks a box if you can find it
Thank you for this video. I seriously appreciate the time and effort you put into this and all your videos. Excellent presentation! Long on facts, analysis, and conclusions, short on B.S..
This may be good for the young guys, or for those who are shooting in States that have outlawed or will soon outlaw lead ammo. I have enough ammo for my .22 Hornet to last the rest of my life, plus plenty left over for my Son when the day comes. So, to all concerned, I wish the best of luck. May your hunts be safe and may your aim be true.
No. Not even a remote chance in the world.
Well one thing is for sure, the .21 Sharp is minute of squirrel.
If the caliber dictates a new barrel or rifle I can't see shooters taking this added large cost on. Also every gun manufacturer would have to be one board. I've seen this happen to the 17HMR Mk11 and the 17WSM with improved performance drop into obscurity due to the lack of rifle manufacturers and ammo range. For a rimfire I love the idea of the 21 Sharp but I feel that if your State does not mandate non lead then I can't see it taking off. Having said that the non lead movement is growing so I could be wrong. Great video Ron and thanks for sharing!
Hello CZ 457
You know, there IS another option to this. There are MILLIONS of people shooting many tens or maybe even hundreds of millions of 22 L.R. STRICTLY AT TARGETS! Never shooting a single animal. There is NO REASON that we can not ban together and DEMAND that the standard lead bullets or copper plated lead bullets (no exposed lead) be allowed at shooting ranges and informal target shooting. I am still shooting my fathers Mossberg 151m 22 semi-auto 22 made in the same era as me! it is pretty fussy about the ammo that it will shoot now. It will ONLY shoot standard velocity ammo. There is NO WAY that ANYONE would be able to screw on a new barrel and have it work. And "tinkering" with it to make it work with those 21 caliber super velocity rounds would cost so much that it would not even be funny, with NO guarantee that it would ever work. I am nearly 70, and I have NO INTEREST in buying another rifle to put holes in paper. The government IS SUPPOSED TO WORK FOR US. NOT US OBEYING THEIR DECREES!
Preach on.
Yes this is correct
The lead ammo ban in Ca is only for hunting. It doesn’t affect target shooting.
@@gregdenton5282lmao are you serious? There has to be a staggering difference in the number of shots fired at ranges verus in the field. Of course California would make a decision that doesnt even make sense.
@@whiteyfisk9769 has to do with scavengers eating the gut piles with lead shards in them.
The tip shape on those reminds me of the Fort Scott TUI bullets
great stuff that costs too much for my wallet
Between .17HM2, .22 short, long (I actually have some) and LR, .22WMR, and 17HMR. Thats all the rimfire I need.
The reason they kill birds more often than mammals is attributed to the action of the gizzard! The stones in the gizzard grind up the food so the bird can digest it. However, the stones also grind up the lead into finer granules, therefore making it more absorbable, which, in turn, makes it much more toxic!!
My question is, why did they make it a flat tipped bullet, rather than pointed? There is no primer in the center of the case, therefore, they don't need the flat point which should increase the velocity sightly!
I still remember the remington bolt action rifle that fired a 5mm magnum!!! wish it was still around!!
Yes. It looks awesome. Then you try to get ammo - out of stock and $0.18 per round. I've never paid more than $0.07 per round for .22LR. Unless required by law, the .21 Sharp makes no sense.
That seems like the future of the firearms industry -- wasting time and money creating things which are unnecessary but for the unending ratchet of garbage laws.
CCI makes all copper bullets it's only like 14 bucks a box of 50 so buying a new rifle makes no sense
Great and informative video! When you compared energy @ 50 yards, you actually highlighted the 60 yard bracket for the 21 Sharp. At 50 yards, according to your chart, the 21 Sharp actually has 107 ft/lb of energy, vs. the 22 Long Rifle @ 103 ft/lb.
Love the idear and if it's ammo price is the same or slightly cheaper even better but I still want 22 hornet to be cheaper
I just bought a box of .22 Hornet from MidwayUSA for almost $80 for a box of 50 rounds (Winchester 46 gr HP).
But I've been trying to get unprimed brass for over 3 years.
@KevinSchwinkendorf that's wild I thought Australia had expensive ammo since when I google search your 22 and 223 and 308 rounds are so much cheaper but that must be the case maybe it's an availability thing $65 for a box of 50 22-hornet. Though Winchester cost a fortune $110 for 50
@@CLFS I think it's a combination of things. Crime is up (thanks to democrats who refuse to punish criminals) so gun sales are up, especially new first time gun buyers. That means demand for ammo is up, but the USA is also resupplying Ukraine with military ammo - not just missiles, but small arms ammo as well (.223/5.56 NATO, 9mm). Winchester operates Lake City Arsenal, which makes military small arms ammo, so production is at capacity. Also, new civilian gun owners are buying guns for self defense, so that means AR-15s and handguns, primarily .223 Rem, 9mm, .45 ACP, .40 S&W, .380 ACP. They are making the most popular hunting ammo (.30-06, .270, .308, .30-30, and .243) but anything more obscure (like .22 Hornet, forget about it). Oh yes, they are making a lot of the most highly overrated cartridge in American history, 6.5 Creedmoor. But not .22 Hornet...
Oh gosh, that'd be something. While we're at it, it'd be cool if my hair started growing back.
Your hair will never grow back because you are a dirty dirty sinner. Fact
Headline ‘For the umpteenth time, firearms industry re-invents wheel’.
Many of us have several thousand rounds of .22LR stockpiled. The thought of it becoming illegal to use is disheartening.
It is a scary thought.
I lost all mine and the guns in a boating accident…so sad
Thanks for the video Ron. Look forward to more testing and hope people give it a chance before writing it off!!!!!
Thanks from New Zealand 👍
I bet those boys up there in Maine (and other northeastern States) that can hunt grouse with rifles are gonna LOVE this cartridge!
We use 30-30 on partridge.
@@six-packproject2277 🤣🤣 damn
@@six-packproject2277and a pear tree...I'm sorry I had to.
@@six-packproject2277 That's a mighty expensive partridge!
I'm from Maine and I hunted ruffed grouse with a High Standard revolver.
Just as an FYI, I have the Winchester wildcat (I know this isn’t the wildcat) and it is hands down my favorite gun that I own. It’s light, it’s accurate. It’s so much fun to shoot. For $200 you can’t have much more fun (legally).
This kinda reminds me of 360 Buckhammer. The 360 is objectively slightly better than 30-30, but unless you live in a straightwall state, and especially if you already own a 30-30, there's no point sacrificing ammo availability to change to 360.
Likewise, this does seem to be a similar improvement compared to 22LR, but that is so ridiculously ubiquitous that unless you actually live in a lead free state (because let's face it, CA is the first, but they won't be the last) there's no point, especially as you almost certainly already have a 22LR.
That said, if ammo availability and pricing for either 360 and/or 21 ever came close to 30-30 and 22, it'd possibly be worth switching just so you've got less limitations on where you can shoot/hunt.
The 360 BH is about 130 FPS faster than a 35 Rem. (also obsolete).
Wow. It’s been awhile since I’ve seen your videos. I noticed the UA-cam 100k viewers trophy hanging behind you. Congratulations
Im definitely not giving up on my 22
The logic of them making new barrels for existing rifles for easy swap, depending if this cartridge stands the test of time makes me glad I bought a 10/22 takedown.
The rifle came with excuses ( the rifle is dirty, the scope sux) lol😂
Nice that they are coming up with new stuff remember when the 17's came out such a great time thanks for the video
I like where their heads at but I don't understand why they couldn't just shorten a 22wmr case rather than going to a 21. I would certainly find it interesting to hear from winchester themselves about that.
That already exists. The 22 WMR was developed from the 22 WRF. It's been around since 1890. That's right. Winchester _already_ invented this wheel over a century ago.
The .22 AUTOMATIC WINCHESTER. For the 1900s Winchester auto was inside lubed the length of the long rifle, was smokeless when the LR was too dirty to work in autos
@@rogermorrill4700 It was the Model 1903 Winchester Auto and it was a mild success. Remington tried the same thing with their own .22 cartridge in the Model 1916 rifle and it was a failure. If you have one of the Remington's, expect to pay over $100+ for a box of ammo. Looks like the remaining ammo for the 1903 is $20 to $40 a box, in a quick search I just did.
Excellent video. This is the place to go for the low down on the new stuff. Very informative. Interesting little cartridge. Thanks Ron!
Back in the 1970s, as a kid, I asked a question. "If the .22 WMR uses a non-heeled bullet, why can't we do the same with the .22LR? Either shorten the .22 WMR or make a smaller bullet for the .22 LR?" I was told, that's a wildcat thing, don't worry about it. So, I didn't worry about it. Now, 50 years later, it's a thing. Maybe I should have worried...
.21 rimfire,.410 2 3/4" and .38 short,.....my new go to 3 gun battery. Now I just need a 1978 Cadillac with a 350 diesel that can't accept a turbo I'll be set.
Yet another un-needed round that will flop like a catfish on a dock, and rightly so. An answer to a question that was never asked. YMMV.
agreed lead is and has never been a problem the eco scientist saying its a problem are the problem
It’s all about selling new rifles , Period !……….
Back in the 1950's our old house had lead based paint on everything. The windows in the house were all painted with lead based paint. Well as a little kid I liked to chew the paint off the window sills. To make along story short I ate a lot of lead based paint from 1951 to around 1960 something. Never bothered me one little bit. Lol.
This is hopefully a gooden.n more on it than been out yet.
Main thing I want to know..
Is ammo n rifle being shipped now? [ 2 to 4 yrs sucks which has been norm from them ]
Also barrel replacements for there Wildcat semi auto n Xpert bolt..[ which took 3 yrs to finally see one in my area,not to mention 5+ to get a extra magazine for yesterday. Yes 10/22 mags work in em but easier to unload the Wildcat/Xpert]
English please
Thanks, Ron, for another great video. I bet that Ruger is testing out 10/21 barrels. They are really going to profit from Winchester's new cartridge.
No.
I love how you filmed this video!
I know why your Garmin isn’t picking up the shot. The bullets are moving over 1700 fps, so you need to select a higher speed range, 1700 - 5000.
Agreed. I had the same issue with reloaded 45-70 ammo that was just in the 1700 range. No reading as the rounds were over the 1700 FPS. Changed the speed range, worked like a charm after that.
Winchester does it again.
After receiving a couple of .22s from my Dad's estate, I bought a box of Winchester black box M22 ammo after running out of some cheap Thunderbolt and some Federal I had around. The M22 wouldn't load in the cylinder of my S&W K22 Model 17-3. At least half of them wouldn't load. A quarter with really tight, and were a real problem getting out after firing. Only about a quarter of them would load. They fired more or less OK in my High Standard. Still there were a few failures to eject. The only thing they worked OK in was my Marlin 39A.
Since then, I bought a bucket or bullets, the Golden .22LR from Remington. Initially, they did well, fit the S&W, but I have had some failures to eject on the High Standard.
Federal seems to be the only ones that are firing consistently.
Try some CCI or Aguila. Their tolerances tend to be pretty darn consistent.
I think a better solution to use copper bullets would be to shorten the 22 magnum case to the same length as 22lr. It could be used in 22 magnum guns and your existing 22lr guns could be rechambered to use it.
That would also increase case capacity. Good idea!
That already exists. It's called 22 WRF. It's the parent cartridge from which 22 WMR was developed. It's only been around since 1890.
@@PSUQDPICHQIEIWC beat me to it!
Winchester's oldest and most consistent characteristic- failure to support their own proprietary Chamberings/ Cartridges.
This Corporate philosophy embodies the spirit of PT Barnum-
"Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the average American..." or words to that effect
I picked up 17HSM ammo and the salesman explained it wasn't 17HMR. I bought about 30 boxes before the gun was even availeable. It's an ok cartridge but so many great ones out there. Better than a 22 mag but still behind the 204. It does fit nicely in the cabinet though.
It's still not a 100 yard cartridge...
HV .22 Lr. Hits harder than that little .21 caliber cartridge.
Agree esp since wind above all else dictates the range of a 22lr, not the drop. And it can't come close to a 22lr. Imagine how poor at 200yds.
Your content is like Mr. Rogers but for gun nerds like me! Thank you for the awesome videos. Keep up the great work.
The .17 Mach 2 failed, 5mm Remington failed. What makes this any different?
Democrats.
I don’t think the Mach two failed.
@@donniepowell7146it most definitely did
The others were designed to be options that occupied niches alongside the .22 LR. This is designed to replace the .22 entirely where the .22 is not a viable option. Also, as a straight-walled cartridge, it is more economical to produce.
@davidherbst but there's literally no reason to buy it unless you are hunting with a 22 in California pointless
California is 45th in guns per capita
Only 15% of people own guns
I'm definitely inenterested in the .21 Sharp. Hopefully aftermarket barrels will be available for the Ruger 10/22 very soon and I will buy one of those for sure. I actually have more interest in this new rimfire than anything eles that has been introduced over the years. I can see the manufacturers view as seeing the potential for this product. Heeled bullets are not ideal for any serious purpose and loading them on the factory level can be wasteful and time consuming due to their construction. Actually a good revolver in .21 Sharp might be a better small game pistol than the .22 WMR. That long case leads to sticky extraction, excessive muzzle blast and quite a bit of unburned power in the barrel. Count me in!
For those who need this, I hope it works out well and it proves to be a good cartridge! No reason to poo on the 21 sharps.. it’s the .22 lr for those who are limited to copper bullets.
Ron Spomer is a national treasure and must be protected at all costs.
I pronounce this new caliber as being DOA.
Thanks Mr. Spomer, It's actually 107 ft/lbs for the .21 Sharp vs 103 ft/lbs for the .22lr. Good comparison.
Another 17 wsm from winchester
Lol not even close. The 17 wsm is 3000 fps. 17 wsm is the best rim fire u can get. The problem is the ammo supply is garbage. Hopefully Winchester starts to make more ammo for it because nothing can touch that little bullet
@@nyjetsfan4455 I meant somehting they arent even making themselves but okay.
Dead on arrival.
@@WayStedYoubut you didn’t fucking say that, now did you? Anyone with at least one brain cell would read your comment as you thinking this is a 17 wsm
@@nyjetsfan4455 you completely missed the point, he meant another wizzbang rimfire that probably wont be produced in adequate amounts, and will probably get cancelled after a few years because they never gave it any support.
Not sure if it's something I will ever use but it is always cool to get some catridge updates.
Is the 21 lr?
(Edit later after comments): I forgot it was called a 21 sharp 😆. It's an interesting little plink option. I'll test a box later. The tip is interesting
.21 Sharp from winchester
.22 xlr?
107 ft-lbs energy at 50 yards, Ron. You were reading the retained energy for the .21 Sharp for 60 yards. Go back and check.at 16:10 mark. Cheers!
Darn I’ve filled all my excess ammo storage with the greatest round since sliced bread the vaunted 30 super carry so no room for 21 sharps in my place.
😂
😆🤣😆🤣😆🤣
No thanks, I have a 17 mach 2 that is the best small game round ever devised by man but I can hardly find ammo for it. The .17 WMR is the same way. When ammo makers start making ammo for existing guns, I may consider something new. This 21 Sharp will never catch on enough to get major ammo production at a reasonable price. I have probably a dozen firearms in .22lr and enough ammo to last the rest of my life . I think I will just stick with it and my air rifles. I CERTAINLY will not be rebarreling any of them to this round.. lead, like carbon is naturally occouring in nature. It is nothing new. I'm not too scared of it unless it is moving several hundred feet per second.
Looks like a fun little cartridge. Only time will tell if it catches on.
Time's up. It didn't.
Love your vids Ron. I have a ton of respect for what you do. I just can't help but feel this is yet another way for manufacturers to drive up ammo prices for such a small difference?
Really.. do something about .17 WSM availability before you put more on your plate!
My .17 wsm used to shoot like that but its a moot point because there is no ammo available for it and being rimfire its very lot specific even if you can find some its hit and miss for accuracy.
If it's anything like .17wsm don't expect Hornady to jump onboard and make ammo for it - seems as though they see the 17wsm as "the competition" to their .17HMR
They are slowly burying the chambering by choosing to stop supporting it and flooding the shelves with their own .17HMR.
If Eley or Lapua started to offer boolots for the .21 chambering at a decent price and is available then it really would take off.
Idk about anything from winchester or browning. They didn't get any other ammo manufacturers to get on board with 6.8 western but now a rimfire cartridge that will group with copper. The 17hmr will do that already but it's 15.5 grain. If other manufacturers can get on board then it will be a great round. Western tree squirrels are pretty tough
This 21 will be much easier to produce than the 17 WSM, it's based off of an actual rimfire rifle cartridge, not a nail gun cartridge. It might catch on. The manufacturers can produce it by simply slapping a 21 caliber barrel on the existing 22lr platform. If it turns out to be inherently accurate like the 17 HMR , less expensive ammo,p and it is avaliable from many manufacturers, peple will buy it.
You've probably already noticed it, but comparing their respective energy readings, you compared 50 yds for the .22 & 60 yds for the .21. (No biggie, but pointing out it for future reference)
Awesome video! Hope you're feeling better !
You had the speed setting incorrect on your Garmin.
Agree
Whenever shooting it may or may not register on your Garmin because of how close your target is it does use radar. Not saying it is just an idea of why it wasn't recording
Wow! I heard it Here First! :)
you can still buy lead .22 in CA its hunting mainly that has to be lead free
California should ban communism and foreign drifters instead of lead