What Inspired the Modern Analog Controller? | Atari 5200, Sega Genesis, Saturn, Dreamcast, Xbox +
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- Опубліковано 2 жов 2024
- Episode 74 - The Analog Controller || Over the last decade, the form factor of controllers offered by the industry leaders has stagnated. Microsoft clearly is the company driving design innovation, inspiring nearly all first and third-party offerings. Microsoft was a late entry into the console market, so who if anyone influenced Microsoft?
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Thanks for documenting the planned add-ons for the Saturn 3-D pad. Kid-me always wondered why the cord was detachable. :)
Thanks for your help on this amigo.
Man, that Dempa controller looks incredible. I've never even heard of it or a lot of these other things like the Saturn's controller add-ons. By the way, leave it to Sega to come up with a million add-ons lol.
Great documentary. Your growth over the past few years as a, and there's no better way to put it, filmmaker is crazy. Not only was this really informative, it was a visual treat. Great job my friend.
The bromance in the air is thick this evening. 😆
Seriously dude, thank you.
Absolutely fantastic look at the evolution of these controllers. So interesting to see what could have been with the Saturn controller.
Thank you for stopping by. The Saturn certainly had legs had it found success in North America.
@@Jenovi Absolutely. It was a wonderful machine that just didn't take off. Sadly only finding it's real audience years later. The same could really be said of the Dreamcast.
Thank you for your video and mentioning our Atari 5200 Podcast.
Long time listener. Man, you guys do an amazing job!
@@Jenovi thanks for listening. And thanks for your great UA-cam channel.
It's impressive to see not one, but TWO working Atari 5200 controllers ;) Jokes aside, you really are an amazing youtuber. Your work seems to be always well documented and backed. Love it.
Prepare to be shocked, I have 4! Three separate where shown in the video. Seriously though, thank you for the support and this comment. It gave me a chuckle.
I learned a lot from this video. Your production value is amazing. You are really starting to grow as a filmmaker. It’s a honor sir, to be on this journey with you
Oh man, I had to click on an older video to answer a comment today..... I though about taking the video down. Progression is real. Much appreciated to have you on board for such a long time.
Amazing and informative vid. I knew about the rumble pack but I had no idea Sega was planning to go even further with the planned expansions to the 3D controller. Seems like they were trying to design a Swiss Army controller that was capable of replicating the same functionality as all of those separate specialty controllers like light guns and racing wheels. Sega on the bleeding edge and thinking light years ahead of their time, as always. Really is a damn shame that idea, like the Saturn itself, never really got off the ground.
Thank you for that comment and for taking the time to watch this video.
Jinobee!! I always learn something new when I watch your videos ♥️ I had no idea Sega has so many plans for the Saturn 3D controller! That extra display would have been amazeballs. Once again another awesome video you've put together with so much research behind it. Jinobee is such a smart egg~
In some ways we got all of these in other forms. If I'm correct, the fishing rod for the DC is motion control. The Saturn Steering Wheel is essentially the same, but in a isolated package, the memory and vmu (Dreamcast), We got that cool and now expensive DC light gun, they even got a rumble pack on the DC.... Did they get a clock?????
Great look back at the tech, man. I've been mulling over some controller videos myself...
Dude, I would watch the heck out of those! What controllers are you considering? I have one more on my list, but it's very much a casual video regarding recommendations.
@@Jenovi Right now, I'm considering one about all the different 3rd party N64 controllers.
Excellent video sir, good information and I learned a lot.
Thank you Randhrick!
Missile Command translated great to home consoles and computers. The Atari 8-Bit version was particularly good.
Recently I been falling asleep to your videos. I’m hoping some video games pop in my dreams!
*falling asleep as in going to bed and playing your videos to listen to your voice! (Not because of boredom lol!)
The 3D Control Pad it was an amazing controller. I really want to go back to the nineties and try everything to make the Sega Saturn a successful console just to see all of those amazing gadgets.
SEGA truly was the most innovative and ahead-of-their-time gaming company.
Sadly SEGA did not survive, as it's said 'a prophet is not recognized in their own hometown.'
@@SwankeyMonkey The corporative racism killed them...
It was a very good start, though certainly refined with the DC release.
@@Jenovi yup, but nevertheless we don't saw all of its proposed tools neither. The hopes from any Sega console (starting up from the Sega CD) used to die before the experimentation have earn a place on the system.
@@TheSuperPlayer707 true.
and I also believe we never saw the full potential of these systems.
Just in general, the beginning of a console's life always pales in comparison to it's later life.
For instance, Mario Bros vs Super Mario Bros 3. Same system but vastly more impressive software.
Tekken vs Tekken 3.. etc...
Check out the screenshots to Virtua Fighter 3 for Segs Saturn before it was moved to the Dreamcast. The amount of details in the player are beyond what I thought capable for 32bit.
Nice seeing someone else who gets why the 5200 controllers were actually way ahead of their time and that the console was actually one of the greatest consoles of the 8 bit era.
People like to justify their opinion of the 5200 while seldom having touched one, or any of the great games. It's like saying the N64 is a lousy system because Superman 64 controls like a boat in a mud pit. Not because they've played anything on the 64, but because we all know Superman 64 is a bad game and so must be the N64. The logic drives me nuts. I can't think of another system outside of the 5200 that get's this treatment.
Wow, didn't know all those possibilities that were abandoned with the expansions on the Saturn 3D Controller. Interesting stuff. A shame they didn't go forward with that, at least with the Dreamcast and use it as a base for that controller. Interesting too how far ahead companies like Atari and Intellivision were.
Thanks for watching this. Unfortunately for Sega, the Dreamcast controller truly was a step backward.
Great info Jenovi. Cheers
Any time! 😁
Glad to be a part of this presentation! Our enjoyment of the 5200 game console has much to do with the great games, but also the really interesting analog controls with the notorious but nonetheless unique joystick and the amazing Trakball that was different from all the other trackballs on other systems (including the Master System, Atari 2600, and Colecovision). I'm glad you showed the joystick coupler which essentially made for a dual analog controller for Robotron 2084 and Space Dungeon- A first for game consoles!
I was also very interested in the Dempa Genesis controller information as well as the Saturn analog gamepad add-ons that had been planned. I had never known about about any of this. This is great content on your channel- You have a very devoted channel-follower from this point on!
Thanks for your write up for the Jaguar and N-Gcon. I'm currently trying to get mine to work with PSVR Wipeout!
@@Gorilla_Jones Keep me informed on how your mid-90s racing controller works on your PS4! The NeGcon is really a great analog racing controller.
I was very happy to have your assistance. My cradle comes from Space Dungeon, I still need Robotron.
Your best video yet. I'm absolutely floored. Keep up the excellent work! :)
Glad you enjoyed it! 😁
Oh man how am I just now discovering this channel. Great stuff. I love obscure controllers and weird retro tech, including unreleased plans like you showed for the saturn 3D controller and other variants. Really cool. Thanks for sharing.
Thank you very much for stopping by and giving the video a shot.
Very impressive! I've always wondered why the Saturn cable was detachable! Nice work! Subscribed. :)
Awesome, thank you!
My observation of analog versus digital was that analog came too early and had a quickly met ceiling of usefulness in the 2D era of gaming. It wasn't that paddle controllers and it's games were bad but rather it should have be a secondary controller rather than the primary like the 5200 did Re. are people playing more Pac Man/Berzerk or Black Widow/Breakout at home more? It was Pac Man and 2D arcade games only focused more and more on digital direction control for many years after.
To me it's just strange when I consider the vast amount of oddball controllers made over 1980-1990 that we never saw a more robust Digital or Analog focused controller design separately. For example a joystick that actually resembled a horizontal 80s arcade deck or an analog stick with a bunch of digital buttons rather going from one button to a whopping two lol, Vectrex got that matter right based on average pinout limits bitd.
Keypads were worse than analog control applied to digital game controls, again they had uses but it wasn't used by many games or so effectively that it had to be molded into the controller shell. The 2600 having a keypad as a separately accessory made for a better gaming model, actually quite like the normal joystick plugging into a keypad module for custom 5200 controllers, or the 360 ChatPad too.
Great comment, highly appreciate it.
There is like not a single reference to the Dual Shock controller in this video... that came well before Xbox. There was even the original Sony Dual Analog controller prior to the Dual Shock. Like literally five years ahead of Microsoft... not sure why you keep saying everyone's controller designs were based off of the Xbox controller when it was clearly Sony who nailed the design with the Dual Shock so well that it stood nearly unchanged through three console generations.
4:08- What's this Joystick?
Actually, there was the Playstation Analog Controller before DUAL SHOCKs made their Debut. Check out Game Dave's Video "The Unknown Playstation Controller".
It's for the 5200. Game Dave is great, a fantastic personality.
@@Jenovi Oh.
You should watch Technology Connections' video on teleprompters for some tips, cuz your eyes jumping to the next line is seriously distracting, lol! :)
Wow, that dempa controller looks really uncomfortable. Are we sure it's good? >.>
I would say, if you like the Duke Controller, you'll love this because it feels very similar.
Great video as always ! I hope theres a part 2 with the PS1 "Analog" giant joystick, and maybe even the Steel Battalion monstrosity for the OG XBox. Ive been trying to find a 5200 in the wild, and would love to get that cradle after I get a working console. Id love to see a Retron or whatever that could play all the Atari systems (2600-5200-7800-XE-Lynx-Jaguar) cuz those 5200 consoles arent easy to find and they re like 40 bucks to ship
Much appreciated! I don't know about a part two, but there have been request for the Saturn stuff to be separated into a longer video. I may do that as I cut part of the Saturn segment for this video.
Jenovi, this is a documentary level masterwork. You've outdone yourself this time.
This shows those revisionist history dorks not even alive when any of this was going on that SEGA were innovators and don't deserve the lambasting they take on the daily from every kid with a UA-cam account and access to Wikipedia. Thanks for this, it was great.
If you want a treat play some Tempest 2000 with a proper rotary controller like a Jedi Jeff with alternating switch.
Thank you Gorilla! For me, the original Tempest with rotary control is a top ten game. Controllers make a massive difference, just try playing and enjoying Major Havok without the arcade set up.
I've been working on designing and creating a rotary controller for the Saturn so I can play the excellent Tempest 2000 *properly.*
That would be very cool to see when you finish it.
Really well researched, love this video. I had no idea there was that many analog controllers pre 5th gen. On a broader point, I really don't like the offset sticks of the Xbox design! My favourite dual stick placement is actually the Wii U pad :D
I don't dislike any of them, but the Wii U pad was also my favorite of that era. To be fair, I'm one of "those people" who think the Gamecube controller is one of the greatest ever designed. I also think the Switch Pro controller is a contender, if only it had analog triggers.
its not that well researched. sony dual analog controller was released 4 years before the xbox and is the originator of the contemporary console controller design, not microsoft.
Just getting around to watching this now. I really like that graphic comparison of the three controllers in the early seconds of the video. I'm no design or video editing expert (although I do communicate a lot of data through plots for my work, I guess...), but that was just a really simple and effective way of communicating that idea. Nice work.
Really dope and informative video, and kinda not at all what I was expecting. Mean that in a good way -- I didn't know most of this stuff!
Didn't know about any of those Saturn add-ons! Would've been cool (but prob would've made the video too long) to cover how the signal from the analog Saturn controller/add-ons is carried out/interpreted by the system. Like, I understand pretty well how the 9-pin ports work, and how some simpler joysticks did x and y pot analog signals, but it would've been cool to cover a pin-out diagram or something. I actually like that in the past, you've never shyed away from covering pin-outs, while trying to keep the videos simultaneously accessible to most and not be overly technical. Tough line to walk!
Thank you, I really appreciate this comment and complement on the opening sequence. I thought it did a great job of conveying the point of why I was making the video, but it's been lost on some. Covering something like the pin traces is always interesting. I mean, I personally find that stuff fascinating. I guess it's just a matter of what info needs to be discussed to properly cover the subject. I ended up cutting quite a bit from this one as to stay on topic as much as possible.
Amazing! I had no clue an analog controller was made to work with Genesis32X.
I had figured the Saturn 3D pad was the 1st way to play Space Harrier with analog at home.
Analog definetly helps for more precise movement. Its how Outrun and those games were meant to be played. I don't have Saturn but I do have Outrun on Xbox, where digital control isn't even an option, even the gas peddle is analog just like the arcade.
Having an analog trigger, that my friend is living the dream.
Good Video, thank you once more.
My pleasure!😁
Dude, this was incredibly detailed and informative, and very well produced. Well done!
Thank you very much for checking this out, and the kind comment.
Why am I fascinated by controllers?
Jenovi what's your favorite, and separately which do you think is the best?
For me the wii classic controller, and the xbox 360 controller respectively
Great video as always! congrats on 10k subs!
Thank you so much 😀
I'd use the CyberStick to play Mean Bean Machine
Holy crap dude have you used that 1ap to play doom 32x?? 😱
before: "He'd better mention the Vectrex." after: "Whew."
Fave pre NES systems? Vectrex and 5200. 😅
Refined, rather than complacent.
The 3DO, Jaguar and CDi showed complacent design. They paid little attention to the user experience, or to the direction that they wanted to head towards.
They all just bundled a controller that was barely adequate compared to the Mega Drive's original 1988 pad.
I’m still mad at my steam controller.
It was absurdly programmable and customizable… but for nearly every game you had to spend hours fiddling with settings, dead zones, chords (shudder), etc.
and even when you finally managed it, the touch pads were never as precise as you wanted them to be.
Makes me nervous about the steam deck, honestly
SEGA was a very innovative company, Arcades and Consoles.. Better than Nintendo "Because they were always ahead of time with their tech. Yes they made stupid decisions, but that is how you innovate. Shame that the old SEGA of the past is no longer about.
Whoa learned a lot of details that i wasn't aware of before. That's quite an achievement on your part.
Wow, you did some great research here! I could've used this video a couple months ago when writing a thesis section on this exact topic. I found it very difficult to find reliable written sources other than what I knew to be true from experience, there's a bit here that I didn't discover on my own. Great video!
Imagine if the Atari Jaguar came out with an analog stick like the 5200 did. What a missed opportunity that was. They could have had an analog stick and face buttons on the flat face of the controller, and a d-pad and face buttons on the slanted face of the controller.
Gamers have been asking for some of these features for decades. Console makers just do their own thing and ignore us.
Dempa is releasing a USB version of the Cyber Stick for the Sega Genesis Mini 2.
Excellent video, learned a lot! I particularly liked the look at the possible add-ons for the Saturn 3D pad and somehow I think I managed to never even hear about the XE-1ap unless I did years ago and forgot.
Truth be told, I don't think many people know about the XE-1ap. I only know about it because my obsession with the 32X and it being compatible with two of the games. Big news for a 32X owner. Thank you for stopping and the comment.
@@Jenovi np, I've been a sub on my personal account for a long time, would have subbed from this one sooner if I realized I hadn't already 😁
WEEEW SSG! His videos definitely inspired my interest in Saturn collecting!
I quite like the variety on the XE-1 AP but the emphasis on flight sims primarily is what holds it back to some extent, like a modern controller supports a wider variety of game genres more transparently. I had the same issue with early PC gaming, some really nice flightsticks made but they were awful for Commander Keen or Mortal Kombat.
The modular joystick coupling like 5200 did should have been used more by all, I like how Dempa had shifters and other things rather than always a second joystick. Although the much smaller XE-1 AP thumbstick cap seemed to ellude most analog joystick makers where big Virtual On style seemed more in the cards for that time period. Truly analog joysticks were the only way to control 3D games since we all tried digital control on early PS1 and similar platforms where it was simply awkward in the third dimension to use digital directional control.
I really think Sega was going in the right direction with the SS 3D Control Pad expansion plan but then went all wrong on the DC as it went from a modular versatile approach to a more rigid overly specific one for VMUs, and less buttons than SS too WTF. I really think games like Quake and DN3D on SS had the right idea using the face buttons in combination with analog free look, sure the layout wasn't optimal but image something like the N64 C-buttons crossed with the Nintendo Switch HORIPAD with it's pop-on D-pad cap to have something capable of both Street Figher and FPS games. That was kind where we were bitd, only one analog joystick per controller, and dual D-pads were tried on VB which only kind of worked.
Been trying to get a SS/DC controller going along these lines since while I like the form factor of the recent Striker DC it doesn't really address the lack of genre support for the platform as a whole nor the SS. I have it planned out pretty well but my buddy's hand me down 3D printer doesn't work great, I'm not that good at 3D modeling, that pandemic. ^_^
Another great comment. I fully agree that Sega took a step in the wrong direction when transitioning from the Saturn 3D to the DC gamepad.
This was so damn informative! Glad I just subbed you off of your Disc Rot video. Keep up the good work!
Glad to have you aboard.
Great overview of the history, especially the interesting Saturn 3D pad details.
There's a missing link between Sega's latter designs and the Xbox pad -- the InterAct line. The company worked on a number of notable third party compatible console controllers as well as IBM compatible PC gamepad designs for Microsoft, and they produced the prototype Xbox controller that was shipped with Xbox development kits based on their their DualShock-derived design: imgur.com/a/un2aFgA
The InterAct line tidily illustrates the convergence of Dreamcast/Sega lineage and DualShock/Sony lineage in the original Xbox pads -- the 6 face buttons, upper joystick with lower dpad and analogue triggers of the former with the dual stick and dual shoulder design of the latter.
Very interesting. Thanks for sharing. Man, those look like a 3d Control Pad rip off with a second analogue stick tossed in for good measure.
Thanks again for sharing such great informations about the saturn controller. Your channel is really good, you deserve more viewers.
Thank you very much for the kind comment.
Floored with the research.
Thanks Alex, glad you checked this one out.
Great video, I never knew about the clip and dual analog capability for the 5200! I also love the Mariners shirt. Missing baseball pretty bad at this point.
Woo! Thank you. I also really enjoy sports and the Mariners. Baseball aside, missing Basketball as I type this.
Felt like I was watching a great MLiG episode and then the Stellaris music kicks in and I am like, OH YEAH!!!! Superb job as always Jenovi!
That's the highest of high praise! I'm a nut for space themed music so it's hard not lean on my favorite games (Stellaris, Eve, ect). Much appreciate that you stopped by.
@@Jenovi Oh I love them too. Nothing like getting sucked into a great 4X game.
Wow, impressive stuff! Very engaging video brother!
Hey brother, I've been missing your uploads. Even DM'ed you on twitter just to check in and make sure things are going ok for you. Glad to see you're alive and kicking!
Fantastic video. Big Thanx from Ukraine
When I first saw this guy … I thought for sure he would talk about duck hunting
🤔 Not a bad idea.
You always put out the most well researched and presented videos. Thanks for the hard work.
I appreciate that and your long time support.
Nintendo held the D-pad patent (US4687200) up until 2005. I wonder if that is the reason why Sony's D-Pads are so janky. Sony prolly didnt want to pay ninty a single cent. So they went with their own abomination instead.
Also, Sony and Nintendo were very much at odds with each other at that time. No way would they do business with one another.
I wouldn’t discount patents effect some controller design decisions, but for D-Pads, it’s probably mostly just designers overthinking what they can change. I still can’t believe how Sega went from the Mega Drive/Saturn D-Pads to the vastly inferior Dreamcast D-Pad.
Awesome video thank you. Always loved the 5200 and Intellivision controllers.
Glad you enjoyed! I don't have much time with the Intellivision, but have deep passion for the 5200.
Great upload my dude...!!! Very insightful 😎👍
Much appreciated, thank you for stopping by.
Thanks i learned a lot
Great video! Very interesting
Another fantastic video, good job brother.
Thanks again!
Can we just clarify something here? The Sony Duelshock was released in 1997 and is CLEARLY the forerunner for all that followed. Not Microsoft. What year were you born, man? Still no excuse for sloppy research.
Fantastic display. Bravo!
Many thanks! 😆
Was that Amico shade
Wait.... which part?
I don't know why but I fund it very amusing when he waves at the camera. (Not in a bad way)
Thanks 🤗
Great video, much obscure knowledge dropped.
Glad you enjoyed it.
🎮😳
💥
No, thank you for this video!
My pleasure. 😁
Fantastic work!
Have you grabbed that Saturn SD thing yet?
I really should, but would need a dead Saturn to justify it.
Thank you for talking me out of getting rid of my dead one for this very reason.