Non Detergent Motor Oil - What's In It?
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- Опубліковано 1 гру 2022
- "Old School" engine builders and hot rodders swore by "Straight 30 Weight, Non Detergent" Motor Oil for breaking in engines back in the day. Well, Straight 30, Non Detergent motor oil is still around, but should you use it?
Lake Speed, Jr is a Certified Lubrication Specialist and Oil Analyst. I this video, Lake reveals what's actually in Straight 30 Grade, Non Detergent oils today. Hint: It's not much, which is why the video is pretty short!
For more about oil chemistry and additive levels, make sure to subscribe and check out our webpage - www.speediagnostix.com
Straight 30 grade oils are available at amzn.to/3GryOEY
Who is the @themotoroilgeek ? I'm a Society of Tribologists and Lubrication Engineers Certified Lubrication Specialist and Oil Monitoring Analyst (I've maintained both of those for over a decade). I also worked for Joe Gibbs Racing for 12 years as their lubricant specialist. During that time, we worked with Wix Filters (one of our sponsors) to test and develop filters for our race engines. We also worked with Lubrizol and Chevron-Phillips Chemical to test and develop oils for our race cars. Following that, I was the head of R&D for Driven Racing Oil. During that time, I formulated and tested over 50 products. We also worked with Cummins, Comp Cams, Oak Ridge National Labs and General Motors on various R&D products. Those efforts are recorded in peer reviewed white papers published by SAE International and ACS Sustainable Chemistry journals.
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#motoroil #viscosity - Авто та транспорт
Before detergent oil was available all engines used non-detergent oil. When I was a kid, I was told never put detergent oil in an engine that had always been run with non-detergent oil. When you disassemble one of these engines every nook and cranny in the crankcase will be full of sludge. The detergent would loosen the sludge, hold it in suspension (the filter was supposed to remove this stuff, but a lot of these old engines didn't have an oil filter) and run the sludge through the engine causing a lot of wear and the engine would need to be rebuilt. I still have some of these engines and I hesitate to use detergent oil. What is your opinion?
Thanks for the video. I was SHOCKED to see this non detergent oil actually had no protective additives. You would have to be nuts to break in a new engine with this product.
Thank you!
Back in the day before multi grade, non-detergent engine oils were pretty common. The lifters and lobes in my flathead ford were in great condition when I did the rebuild and I'm quite positive most of it's working life was running non-detergent straight grade. The cylinder walls were a different story, we had to go with 0.080 overbore to clean them up.
Good info. My dad used to run ND 30 wt in the old '58 Chevy. That engine was a sludge ball. What I haven't seen discussed is recommended oils for 4 stroke utility engines on things like mowers and lawn tractors. Now I see that Briggs and Stratton is recommending their Vanguard 15W-50 synthetic for their engines. I have been using 15W-40 diesel oils in my B&S Intek 20hp V-twin for 23 years and it still runs well, I change the oil and filters at the beginning of each mowing season. The mower gets used for mowing fire breaks and eats a lot of dirt. Most recently switched to Mobil Delvac 1300 synthetic blend.
That Delvac is not a bad option.
It is good for oiling the hinges on your yard gate.
LOL, that's a proper use!
Substitute for Way Oil?
Good stuff Lake Speed! I was about to use Valvoline SAE 30Wt. non-detergent with ZDDP additive for my new engine. That's what we used to do when I still worked in the engine building industry in the 90s....all of my mentors said to do this. A lot has changed. In your next video, can you also cover some of the synthetic break-in oils, such as Royal Purple? Conventional wisdom used to say NEVER use synthetic for break-in. Or is it a matter of plateau honed bores vs. straight stones, etc. whether you could use one? I would love to know these details!
I’m happy to help. I would avoid the synthetic break-in oils. That is still not a great idea.
My personal preference on break-in oil is the Driven GP-1 Break-In 30, which happens to be a straight 30, but it has a robust additive package designed specifically for break-in.
Thanks for the videos, really enjoy them!
Thank you!
Great information, thank you.
Can you make a video about ATF and power steering fluids??? Would be interesting to know what are their contents of each other. Thanks man, awesome content!
Hi Lake. Just found you from the Dave's Auto video (first time there, too:>). Subscribed, and will binge watch all you've put out thus far.
A question, please. Have seen your "Never" and "none" responses below; but is there perhaps merit in using a non-detergent oil - thus not transporting wear particles through a filterless engine (mower, blower, generator etc). Would ND not faclitate allowing same suspension to sludge-out in the sump? Your answer be much appreciated.
There is zero merit to using a non-detergent motor oil. It only exists because people still buy it.
Decades ago I was told to use non detergent oil in my 53 Caddy. Probably because they didn’t have better oils back then? I don’t use it in any small engines, and use 5w30 in snowblower, pressure washer etc
I have several quarts of Chevron SAE 30 I got for free and going to use it in my 82 Trans am this week
Someone will try to mix a zinc additive and call it good. Hopefully they watch this video first! Thanks Lake. We'll see you at PRI next week.
Thanks! See you soon!
I use it in air compressors and thats it. Had a coworker changing the oil on his push mower and he put in the ND 30 in it. We told him not to and he just blew us off. Needless to say the mower ran about 2 hours and smoked and seized up.
Sad, but true…
That's odd, I wonder if he didn't fill it to the proper level or something. While non detergent oil clearly isn't ideal for engines, it seems odd that it would ruin one so quickly. I know people who think non detergent oil is the best thing to use in small engines and none of them ever had a catastrophic failure like that. And back in the earlier days of cars when additive free API SA oils were the norm, engines still lasted a heck of a lot longer than 2 hours.
@@averyalexander2303The stuff that 1920s oil refineries were putting out had a lot of sulfur and sulfurized hydrocarbons that actually did have some anti-wear properties. This is just highly refined straight mineral oil. Not suitable for engines or anything else frankly.
I recently went looking for 20 or 30 grade non detergent oil but I wanted the additized kind, what sucks is because people were seeing the API symbol and putting it in their modern cars they no longer mark the oils as API SA or API SB, SB is additized typically with some anti-wear and anti-oxidant additives which I believe is what you actually want for sintered bushings is at least an oil with anti-oxidants added, Valvoline (also Napa's house brand that's made by Valvoline) is the only manufacturer I can find of an additized non-detergent motor oil, the only other option is AW68 or AW100 hydraulic fluid but I just wanted like a quart or even like 8oz will be enough to last a lifetime and hydraulic oil is typically only sold by the gallon, pail, or drum, what I ended up getting was some synblend air compressor oil it appears to probably be AW68 sold in a smaller container based on the SDS, it's really clear indicating that the base oil has probably been hydro processed in some way, and it smells kinda like power steering fluid. The SDS listed ZDDP and Butylated Phenol on it, I presume the latter is some type of anti-oxidant.
I really enjoy your content both here and on the Total Seal videos. I deal a lot with engine builds for performance Aircooled VW and Porsche, as well as “Airhead” BMW Motorcycles.
I would like to hear your opinion on the following controversy.
In the 90’s, Porsche and VW builders had recommended conventional oil against synthetics in the vintage Aircooled stuff, because there was a claim that synthetic oil didn’t absorb heat as well as conventional oil, and therefore the engines would run hotter on synthetic since the oil wasn’t carrying away the heat to the oil cooler.
Any thoughts on this? Was it true then? Is it true now?
Thanks for the comment and the question. In regards to that question, synthetic oil has a greater specific heat capacity than conventional oil, so synthetic oil actually pulls more heat from parts than conventional oils.
This manifests itself in an odd way - synthetics will run cooler than conventional oils (everything else being equal). That probably created the confusion which led to the incorrect conclusion that synthetics were not absorbing the heat. In actuality, they just didn’t hold as much heat.
@@themotoroilgeek awesome. Thank you for the quick reply. I see no reason why I can’t switch over to a high quality synthetic then. I appreciate your help!
@@MaineMachinist There is one thing that may be an issue: Seal compatibility.
With a cutting edge synthetic oil old seals may start to leak a bit because certain base oils they use to formulate engine oil dont do well with old rubber seals.
That would be Group 4 PAO oil it's common fully synthetic oil.
Those lower grades of motor oils and older obsolete oils probably are best used for old tractor oil bath air filters or those oil burning shop heaters or maybe just recycle them .
I recently purchased a 1966 Pontiac Lemans with a 326 ci engine. The engine has several changes such as headers, 750 double pump carb and an aftermarket camshaft. I have no specs on the cam but it has a pretty rough idle. Car runs like a scalded dog. I was told to use nd 30 oil in it. What’s so you?
I have been using Walmart Supertech or NAPA SAE30HD for more than 10+ years. In all my Lexus cars!! Zero defects especially in the heat in Florida and Nevada. Can’t use it below 40F but I never go anywhere cold.. engines are like brand new even today. I have 200,000 miles on my LS460. Please do a review and test.
SAE 30 HD is not non- Detergent. Two different formulas. Just the viscosities are the same.
Thank you for the info . when would you use a non detergent oil?
Never
I’m curious about the oil from Driven. A lot of engine builders include this oil with their engines and will not warranty it if another oil is used. They are not sponsored by them either or have any partnerships.
Stay tuned for the next video!
Quick question: Can I just use standard motor oil for everything aka compressors, pressure washers, small engines etc?
Shouldn't be a problem right if anything the anti wear additives and detergents in motor oil are a benefit.
Yes, regular oil will work better than non-detergent oil in those applications.
Great video, I was curious about this. Do you have any idea why so many people say to only use a non detergent oil like this one in non engine applications like pressure washer pumps and air compressors? Or is that just a myth? I understand why detergents may not be needed since there's no combustion, but I don't see why they would be harmful to anything?
Thanks for the comment and the question.
The use of this type of oil in a compressor or pump of some sort today is myth.
There’s no technical reason to use a Product like this in a compressor or pump.
@@themotoroilgeek That's what I thought since it made no sense to me, thanks for confirming my suspicions.
I put standard 0w30 motor oil in my pressure washer. Runs great.
Viscosity matched up well with the spec sheet pdf of Karchers special pumphead/gearbox oil and what was already in the machine.
I seem to remember my older Briggs mowers calling for 30w ND? I could be wrong since I have a Honda now. But if that is the case, why did they recommend using that? Great vids btw!
Thanks! In the 90’s, non detergent motor oils still had some additives (like Zinc and anti-foam additives). Today, that is not the case.
@@themotoroilgeek thanks! Appreciate you clearing that up. I thought that I was losing my mind for a minute lol
@@johnnyh127 I’m happy to help!
So question is why does shell make this type of oil and allow it to be sold? This could actually cause damage initially , during the break in period, which could result into high consumption of oil and other issues down the road.
They are not the only ones selling this product. There are several on the market. Many states have actually banned the sale of these products as Motor Oil for that reason.
Do you have anything in the works for 0w-40 testing and maybe a comparison between it and 5w-40?
We have a lot of things planned and in the works. We already have a video on 0W-40 Mobil 1.
Speed, we used 30 weight ND oils in our cars during the 60s/70s and in our one and two cylinder 4 stroke engines back then. So what engines would you use this oil in today?
I wouldn’t use a straight 30 Non Detergent oil in anything anymore. There are plenty of straight 30 grade oils that actually have additives in the oil (like they did back in the day).
@@sandyshoremann7524 so my remembering buying Pep Boys brand 30 ND oil in their 1 gallon metal cans and using this oil in my 1948 Ford F-1 and my 1960 Ford F-100.... I guess I must have dreamed all that
I really can't say for sure, it was a long time ago but either we didn't know about detergent oils but I think the main reason is because we didn't have much money back then so we would have bought the cheapest oil we could find.
@@BusterKitten Just because it's a ND oil it doesn't necessarily follow that it doesn't have other additives in it.
Well Geek.....what applications do you recommend with ND30 ???
As a control if you are doing an actual rigorous peer-reviewed scientific test of different oils.
What's your take on small engine oil? My Kawasaki FR691V has Kawasaki 30 with Zinc.
I was recently comparing the technical properties of PennGrade 1 and AMSOIL Signature and noticed the “numbers” or specs appeared to be better for PennGrade. Is this an accurate way of determining what oil to use in a particular application?
I’d strongly caution against using spec sheet numbers alone to choose an oil. I’m not saying that spec sheet information is not valuable, it certainly is. However, it is not the full story. I’m going to do a video on how to choose an oil.
@@themotoroilgeek awesome! I’ve been going back and binge watching about every video and live stream of yours that I can find. Appreciate your content!
@@doughty_performance Thanks!
isnt this the oil you should use in a vintage air cooled engine? for example cast iron kohler or briggs..... something that uses splash lubrication, the non detergent wont foam up at all?
My old shop teacher told us to use this as a way to "clean up" an engine. Once a year, a non detergent oil & filter change, bring it up to temp at *idle* only. Dump it and then a normal oil change. All of his vehicles lasted over 200k miles.
A flush oil change like that is a good idea, but the non-detergent oil part of that is not.
@@themotoroilgeek I have studied this topic pretty well. My idea is that if you accelerate the oil change interval, then you do not need to worry so much about the ability of the oil to neutralize acids and suspend contaminants. I suppose you could add, prevent deposit build up to the list. A flush oil change probably is not going to help an engine, not that it will harm it either. If someone had acquired a vehicle with a dirty engine (sludge or even synthetic oil crystallization) and asked me what to do, I would say, start changing the oil more often. I have seen synthetic oil crystallization. I assessed it as scary looking but harmless. It did slowly dissolve out. The previous owner's son had put in some brand of high mileage synthetic and then the car was driven about 20 miles a week for years on the same oil. Toyota 5SFE with 103 K miles.
I like to rinse some of the old oil out with a little clean oil when changing oil since a bunch of oil is hidden in nooks and cranies of engine seems like if you are going to dump whole oil in engine might as well just do oil changes more often.
Non detergent oils are great for non-engine applications. Think air compressors and the like. Especially scba tanks which are used for breathing air
Thank you for this advice, 👍🏼&subscribed. Would you advise for or against using a “T1”
grade oil in 30wt. in a out of warranty Briggs 24hp v-twin riding mower?
I’m not familiar with a “T1” oil rating.
@@themotoroilgeek It’s a Shell product called “Rotella” T1 grade in 30 wt. I think it’s a straight grade that’s recommended for diesel motors.
@@Ojb_1959 Got it, T1 is their marketing term. If it is diesel rated, it will have a full additive package, and that will be fine for your engine.
@@themotoroilgeek Thank you sir 👊🏼
Are all straight "weight" oils detergent-free? I use non-detergent sae 30 in my air compressor and (I assume) detergent sae 30 in my 4-stroke boat engine.
No, straight weight oils are not necessarily non-detergent.
Can I use Husky synthetic blend non-detergent air compressor oil (ISO 68) if my application calls for "SAE 10 non-detergent oil"?
Not if the application is an engine
This is random but do lawn mower oils like Briggs 30 weight have additives and if not, should it? It would seem like they have a lot of friction and run at a constant high RPM. Specially when people have lawn mowers for a decade and change the oil a few times if they are lucky. I never thought to do an oil sample on a lawn mower. Maybe a new video idea.
Yes, lawn mower oils do have additives in them.
It's hydraulic oil. S.A.E. 30 is close in weight to ISO 68. It's also good for triplex pressure washer pumps.
True, but the downside is no anti-foam additive.
Been using hydraulic oil in my air compressor for 22 years. Was recommended by the aircompressor dealer/distributor I bought it from. I had some Ingersol rand t30 select to use up from my old compressor, it made very good chainsaw bar oil.
SAE 30 is ISO 100. SAE 20 is closer to ISO 68.
I know this is a year old but I've been told if and only if you have chrome moly rings to break them in run a straight non detergent 30w for no more than 50miles low rpm low load to seat them paying attention to the exhaust. Then normal straight 30w for 150miles, 500miles, 1500miles before switching to a mulit 10w-30 or what not and all this having to be done above 50 degrees. Is there any truth to that anymore? I can see no on the non detergent as we have other materials now but back in the 50's thru early 90's engines?
No, the break-in oils available today make these non-detergent oils obsolete.
Seem to remember having an old Farmall tractor and a 5 gal jugs of 30w ND, pretty sure that’s what gramps used in ole red.
Yes! In fact I have many old farmalls! All the manuals say to use sae 30 ND .
Very cool. Just a mineral 30 weight oil plain Jane. What would kind.of engine would something like this be used in?
In the old days, the straight 30 mineral oils had some ZDDP and a few other additives. These oils were used in the engines built before the late 50’s. They stayed around for a long time because they were so widely used.
Today, there is NOTHING in them, but you can still find them on the shelf in some stores. Scary!
@@themotoroilgeek obviously not to run it in a modern engine. What about something like a lawn mower?
My old John Deere 2 cylinder tractor uses 30 wt non detergent in the rear hydraulics, so there are some applications left that can safely use it.
One you plan on destroying.
@@BeardedFordTech Nope, not even a lawn mower.
There is a difference between SA and SB non-detergent oils. SA oil is pure oil with no additives. SB oil has certain additives but no detergent. Both of these products still are produced because both of them still have their uses. Particularly, VW purists want to use non-detergent oil in their vintage Type I and Type II engines for the sake of authenticity. SB oil is readily available but it costs more because of the limited market. If any independent convenience store or independent discount store sells SA oil, it is because some jobber sold it to the owner.
so why do they warn to only use non detergent 30 weight oil on electric motor bearings? what would the additive do that are bad for the bearings?
The detergents would be pointless because they aren't trying to cope with combustion products and sludge precursors. But good electric motor oil still has an anti foaming, anti wear, and anti corrosion additive package. I use automatic transmission fluid on electric motor bearings to good effect, but I'm not a professional electric motor rebuilder.
Can i use 30w ND to my briggs and stratton engine thanks..
I would not recommend that
For rotary engines, this is perfect
Can you test John Deere 10/30 breakin oil
We already did and the results are on this link: www.speediagnostix.com/total-seal
Doesn't it make sense to use it in very old car with sludge everywhere that you don't want to end up in your oil passage ways?
No, because there are no anti-wear additives in it.
I guess I can use it for squeaky door hinges
LOL, that’s an acceptable use!
So this is what i as a pressure washer oil, oil that is detergent free, mineral oil tyvm
Only thing i'd use non detergent oil in would be motorcycle shocks.
👍🏻
An old friend back in the 70's and 80's would run this stuff in his Mercury 20 hp outboard instead of those "fancy" 2 stoke oils as he liked to call them.
was it a 2-stroke engine with oil in gas or a 4 stroke with oil in the engine?
@@ranger178 It was a 2 stroke with oil (straight 30 non detergent) in the gas.
i have an old 1970s 9.8 hp mercury that is 2 cycle never seemed like the 2 stroke oil was that thick it seemed kinda thin.@@glennfrancis9031
I wonder what the ashless-antiwear additive packages looked like back then. Lawn Boy actually used to recommend ordinary automotive engine oil in their two stroke mix. They claimed that the available ashless oils couldn't tolerate the heat and extreme conditions. It now makes me wonder if the ashless two cycle mix market was contaminated with unadditized mineral oil similar to the product in the video.
WHAT BRAND IS A HIGH DEGERGENT OIL ???
Any oil that is not labeled non-detergent
What brand do you suggest is the best
@@maliknolan5711 We don't recommend specific brands. The key to choosing the correct oil is to NOT start with the brand. Instead, start with the application. Choose an oil of the correct viscosity and type for the application and then pick a brand that delivers that.
What do you suggest for 5w30
Is Royal purple? HMX Is a good detergent oil
So if engines shouldn't be using this, then what the hell do they use it for & why is it still made?! Is it for garden or non automotive use?
In California it has to be labeled as compressor oil.
Was told to use this oil for my lawn mower because it does not have a oil filter. Is this true
That was bad advice. Even mowers need oil with additives.
So, why is this product even on the market?
Air compressor
Yes, but I'd still like to see some anti-oxidant or even some ant-foam in the oil, even for a compressor.
@@themotoroilgeek Interesting info. The average consumer has no idea. I could see these big companies cutting back in areas most will never see. If they could call 24oz a quart they would.
@@midway27272727 So true!
Seems to me that she'll doesn't know what they are doing when it comes to motor oil. Why would they make a motor oil with no additives im certain the engineers know that this particular motor oil is not good? Kinda worried cause i use shell gasoline hope shell knows what they are doing ?🤔
Don’t blame Shell. They are actually following the API SA specification, which is ZERO additives. Shell is a great company and I also use their fuel.
This situation with the Straight 30 Non Detergent oils being API SA is something people need to be aware of, which is why I made the video.
@@themotoroilgeek thank u sir for your educational videos 😊 😃. Can't wait till u do another video with BFT 😊.