Correction: Dave erroneously stated that the army books were not being released at the same time as the arcane journals. This is incorrect. You will note they are not featured in the video. We misread embargo information, and made a mistake. These books are available on launch. These errors are easy to make with a 2 day turnaround from getting products to releasing videos. Apologies. You still need 3 books to play with Elisse Duchard though ;)
Pre orders sold out????? Wtf GW don't understand what pre-orders are I guess it's to be expected when you hire gender studies majors to handle actual buisness ffs!
@@aristeia71yep, did also get that off the cuff reference to a show my dad watched when I was 5 wrong. If only we had more than 2 days to make this video 😂
I feel like it might have been more helpful to simply remove the erroneous part of the video. So much he said was incorrect it’s almost not worth watching.
As a Skaven player who sold his army and then decided to buy two huge army sets month before GW said Skaven won't really be there... I might be digging under a building in Nottingham. Yes-yes.
I`ll start the game probably with my skaven too. And while they won`t be in gws statement tournament lega, I have a feeling we‘ll see a lot of tournament organizer who‘ll probably just ignore those words
@@fragfmgill We will see. They already said there will be no support for "legacy" armies post release and you won't be able to play them on official events.
For me, the appeal of Old World is that is classic, stereotypical fantasy. There's a lot I like about AoS, but a lot of it takes the weird fantasy to an extreme that I bounce off, whereas Old World is just middle of the road classic sword and sorcery which is an aesthetic I a more interested in.
Fantasy Battles have always been very high fantasy. Total War is an insanely high fantasy with huge flocks of dinosaurs, dragons and mammoths. Dragon God Space Emperor of China especially. And this Old World is just a soy fantasy with Good versus Evil on a copied map of Europe.
In terms of who the new buyers are: its people who found it through Total War: Warhammer. I am super nostalgic for The Old World, but my issue currently is neither launch armies were one I'm interested in personally.
You should be worried about the pricing benchmarks moving forward if the first two releases are anything to go by. Depending where you are in the world, something like three Ushabti will run you about $80-$100. Selling upwards of three decade old models - many of which are awful metal and resin - for prices which sometime exceed modern counterparts is not a sustainable long-term business model.
total war player here. most of us won't buy into that cash grab. its expensive, has old and some ugly models and the gameplay isn't nearly as dynamic as total war games. just take the tables, for example. there is no space for movement. even the really small total war: warhammer maps are A LOT bigger than those gaming tables.
I think you have your answer, like the gent in the video I turned my nose up at these minis as a 10 year old 20 years ago because they looked old and naff. This won't bring new people into the game.
i painted a whole army of these fellas and yes. need someone with talent to paint then. and the owner of the army told me that he loved the end result but for me is not the best painting possible. but yea... catachan and old sisters of battle needs someone with good painting hands.
One exception: the Catachan diorama at Warhammer World in Nottingham. It is small, in a hall full of dioramas, but the way that the Catachans actually looked contemporary really caught my eye.
IMO Mordheim or "Mordheim" should be refreshed as a fantasy "necromunda" line. With no skaven support this game is a pass for me for now until maybe we get some kiselv
So their using moulds from GW’s early days in using plastics? I worked in the factory in 1993 which produced these minis and all plastic kits, rhino, land raider etc, so i do have very fond memories of those skeleton hordes and endless mk1 space marines on sprues, i worked there for 2 years and my job was mixing the polymers with colours and release agents to fill up the machines hoppers, mundane AF but i loved working there, plus i worked with my father, who too worked for the company so i get very misty eyed whenever anything from this era comes along! That does date me somewhat, in fact this coming monday i turn 50, and i began painting citadel miniatures in the mid 1890s right up to leaving school, by the time i worked in that factory, i was over the miniatures, but i still loved seeing new moulds produce brand new minis and kits, exciting times!
I can give GW respect for using two armies that got totally removed from AoS as their launch factions. My only concern is how they will handle it. GW REALLY needs to treat the setting and game with care in my opinion.
They're already going full-throttle into that "Lawful Good vs Chaotic Evil" instead of the moral greyness of the old stuff and it's really concerning. The history nerds who wrote for GW have left long ago in favor of safe, sales-conscious, comic book writers.
@@TaRAAASHBAGS Which is odd because several of the factions don't fit either if you look at them...especially the Brettonian/Wood Elf fluff...or entire forces that are more neutral or even opposite of the main faction. For example the old Strigoi were good guys that were also undead monsters, protecting the living of their people. The Tomb Kings tended to be more straight up neutral because they tended to not care as much unless someone else set them off.
Made me laugh out loud when Dave said he was impartial half way through the vid 😂 After watching 15 minutes of him almost chundering due to all the old/recycled sculpts and art charged at modern prices.
@@TabletopTimeif you had no interest then why do it and be mostly negative. I understand people have their personal tastes. I for one really enjoyed Warhammer, both the modeling aspect and especially the game play. Why not play a few games and get an overall experience of the whole project as well - before digging a grave. You did have a valid point of support, but speaking as a Warhammer TO and player. There are a lot of people that played and many of them never touched Sigmar because the rules and game play did not appeal to those players as Warhammer Fantasy did.
I loved Warhammer Fantasy for its rules which, at the time, I found were more tactical that 40k of the time. The models age never bothered me. That being said, I played a magic heavy vampire counts army and with the change to the magic phase, I'm waiting to see how they play before committing to the system
We will have special rules, just not the fancy alternative army lists. Fantasy didn't have balance updates through the previous 8 editions. So long as the initial rules are reasonable, it'll be fine. Obviously, they could be terrible! @@belianore8999
Honestly, the opening bit has me in stitches. Editor Liam in full armour and stuff, looking straight out of a movie set, and then Jenn as the Lady of the Lake just in a TTT Shirt and Jeans. You have bamboozled me. I somehow knew the lady would be Jenn, but for some reason i was expecting a medieval gown or something. Completely blindsided by normal clothes. Now to actually watch the video hahaha Edit: Farewell, Noble Sir Liam! Your work will never be forgotten. Good luck on your mighty quest. I might have to collect something in the Old World. If they release Cathay im definately getting those, but that feels unlikely since that'd be a buttload of new minis. I'll likely end up going Orcs or something again, like I did in my youth, or perhaps i'll finally be able to field the clan Skryre list of my dreams.
Kinda sucks Jen and Murray weren't there to open up and talk about the boxsets. It would have been more interesting when it's from people who actually were looking forward to this release.
Random tarts distributing swords is no basis for a crafting video!! You see this?! Whats next?! Terrain from coconuts?! I dare say, wait til Tim hears about this! Release the rabbits!!
I would counter your point about middle earth being squatted, they apparently hired a new sculptor dedicated to middle earth a few months ago, something they wouldn’t likely do if they were planning to discontinue the game any time soon
I think in the MESBG case it's more about GW wanting to keep the LOTR rights so others can't have it rather than actually wanting to do something with it.
It all really looks like one of those projects that has potential but is treated by GW as a side/specialist game that will be around in obscurity for a bit, especially with all the old models and resin being a large part of the range. Looks like the HH of fantasy right now.
exactly. Imagine GW was smart and would have redone the whole system wholeheartedly with complete new models, streamlined rules, easy entrypoint and a marketing campaign tailored for the 1 million strong total war playerbase.
As a slightly bitter Heresy guy, I feel so much better about the amount of plastic kits I got that are new compared to these. Some of these are more expensive than my new kits with more dudes in them.
@@envaya9838 Considering that WHFB failed to begin with, that is pure cope on your part. GW was smart, and sold TOW as a specialist game without spending much by using old models while using modern prices. They will have a small but dedicated fanbase and expand from there.
Now imagine just how much that would cost, and try to work out how they are goign to fit that into their already over-streatched production schedule. Old World is a risky investment. That was never going to happen.@@envaya9838
Between using 30-year-old sculpts, key Fantasy armies like Dark Elves, Lizardmen, and Skaven not getting support, day 1 DLC books, and more, this seems like a pile of bad decisions all lumped together. Given the smash popularity of Total War Warhammer and Vermintide, this should have been an easy win to sell to new fans of the video games and oldheads alike, and maybe even AoS players if they had let the armies cross-pollinate more. Instead, GW chose the "shooting yourself in the foot" option by being cheap as possible and showing as little confidence in the product as they could, not including armies that could potentially draw sales away from AoS and doing the minimum amount of work. I think that because of the failure of Fantasy, GW (not unreasonably) also expects this game to be DoA. They're only doing this because TWW and Vermintide made an opening for them to sell old world models again. They want to leave themselves that MESBG-like production pipeline open - as you described - if the game randomly proves popular, but by doing as little as possible they're letting themselves fleece the nostalgia crowd and the TWW community for a bit with minimal investment, earn their RoI, and when the property inevitably fails because of this self-fulfilling prophecy they've created, they'll just move on. TLDR in my eyes, the Old World launch is just another crash course in killing your own product line through refusal to take risks and commit, but will still be a successful business venture because hedging your bets and fleecing people's nostalgia is a tried-and-true tactic to make a quick buck off an old property.
GW loathed mixing units from different games together. Plenty of HH Marines would fit fine in 40k, but they refuse to allow them to cross. The same applies here I guess, where plenty of AoS stuff can easily fit in TOW.
TOW players wanted the "classic" models because "we don't want Age of Shigmar models in our beloved Fantasy ! Old World is Old World ! We hate AoS and want none of it in TOW ! ", and GW gave them the classic models. Even if they look like... they were made 20 years ago, which they are. Won't stop converters from using them, but officially, it might be the best move from GW to appease the very anti-AoS Fantasy/Old World community.
@@Basil_Ghothickovitch Honestly Im not sure how big that crowd really is. I wrote of age of sigmar on launch, I hated the end times and the fact that GW had canned my childhood game, but when I saw that the announcment for ToW came out I was excited and started looking at some of the Aos range for inspiration in getting back into a fantasy game. I really love the new models a lot and from there seen that some of the AoS lore is good too. This launch has indirectly made me more intrested in Aos (or at least the models) than I ever was! taking off the rose tinted glasses while still giving me an opertunity to play the classic game if i really want too.
@@Basil_GhothickovitchPeople want to use good looking models in their games. I have heard no complaining about the updated Greenskins, Lizardmen and Vampire Count AOS miniaturs. A lot of the AOS miniatures are too high fantasy for a lot of fantasy players, like the mountain cow elf line or the fish elves.
I think one of the points of using the older models, especially in the launch sets, is nostaligia marketing. Both for those who collected when it was originally around and will be excited to see it on the shelves again. And also as was said, for those who couldn't collect it at the time, but want to now. Also, using the older moulds is a wise move on GWs part, as it allows them to gauge interest without spending a lot of money on the production of new moulds.
Welp mordheim models, necromunda conversions. And oldworld models are back on the menu it seems. If in doubt any model can be a necromunda model. And a mordheim if you get all the scfi stuff removed. Heck yeah.
I would wager that they will give each army supported a sort of relaunch. But not haveing Skaven? Wuuuuuuut? Atleast haveing support for their PDF armies would be expected :/ They are hinting at moveing the story / year forward. So hopeing they can add more armies later. If the game sells well enough for a Old World 2nd edition
Yeah, I remember that film as a kid. Really got me into skeletons, haha. Tomb Kings' theme is cool, as well. I always liked them. I dislike Sigmar, personally. Note: Tomb Kings were likely inspired by old skeletons, though I have no idea if it was based on Jason or not. Maybe the big heads were for the same reasons: detail. Or, maybe the proportions are quite realistic? If you look at real human skeletons, the head is fairly large, the arm bones are tiny, and the chest/ribs are large. So, no matter what, the arms are too large for the GW minis. They likely couldn't make them any smaller without risking it falling apart.
I was genuinely horrified when I saw the old horses were just being rolled into this new release... Just feels so low effort for such a huge box price tag. Not a good sign for how they plan to support the game either, that they are leaning this hard on old moulds this early on
Sculpting new kits is expensive. It's even more expensive to create molds for plastic models. GW doesn't know how well it's going to do, so it makes sense to use existing models at release. There are a lot of AoS kits that have only fairly recently been replaced. Skaven & Beastmen are still rocking 30 year old kits, and at AoS prices.
Problem is that's a double edge sword-if you *don't* put in the effort, people might either A: consider it lazy if they know that or B: consider them to just look weird and bad if they don't and kill the game before they get to see how it'd do, pre-destining it to failure. @@zlobzor
Its VERY worrying that there's not enough different new models. Just seems like the olde style GW "half-arse launch then never support the game past launch" they used to do. Without new models, there isn't going to be any fiscal traction so I can't see how GW will support it unfortunately (old Skaven player here btw)
Remember, this is a specalist game, not a core line. They don't expect the same sales volume as AoS & 40K, so the investment isgoing to be smaller. New kits are hugely expensive to produce. Looking at the way the game has sold so far, stuff is selling well. Hell, go look at the current AoS skaven range.
Another channel flicked through the "forces of good" army book and based on what he said, it sounds like my main army of Dwarfs are going from 20mm to 25mm square bases. About half of my army started as Skull Pass minis so they should transfer easily enough, but I think the better option overall would be to print base adaptors for everything that need them.
I play Oldhammer.. never stopped. I 3d print most of my miniatures these days and I just upgraded to an Elegoo 12k Saturn 3 ultra printer to go along with my Mono X 6k so my costs are low, my options are plentiful and I can print a whole unit in 90 mins for a couple of dollars (literally) and there are exceptional scrumptious sculpts. I don't need GW if they are not servicing my needs. Be like me, go your own way by rewarding good products and ignoring everything else.
Your costs aint that low. Have you calculated the time investment involved in learning how to set up your printers? It's cool you've got the free time for another not cheap hobby. :)
@15:50 Fantasy has always sold less than 40K, but poor sales was not the reason the company switched to AoS. This isn't even difficult to track down and find out about. 10+ years back GW was losing market share to lots of up-and-coming competitors, so there was some financial pressures, but that's not what started the ball rolling. In response to competition GW initiated a risky legal challenge against Chapter House, which GW subsequently lost and opened up a Pandora's box by way of setting precedent with that failed case. During the legal challenge it became clear that too many of the races and things in the fantasy range were common names (just like the problematic 'space marine' from the GW vs Chapter House fiasco) and as a result we ended up with all of the stupid AoS names for things that could be legally covered in future as GW intellectual copyright. I'm not aware of whether GW may have been planning an end to the Old World prior to their Chapter House lawsuit, but all these names and the AoS setting was just to protect the value of their intellectual assets and shareholder returns. Suggesting it's because people just weren't financially supporting fantasy is a misrepresentation.
This is copium, it’s pretty well known from tons of GW managers that it was being old-sold by paint. Fantasy just wasn’t popular by 8th and the barrier for entry was too large.
@@logiebear911 Sorry logiebear911? Who has ingested all this copium? It may be you. The only time GW released a breakdown of sales figures was during the whole Chapterhouse court case. This claim of '___ outsold fantasy' is tired and unsupported as the real reason GW tried to re-launch their fantasy setting. This concept has been covered on sites like dakkadakka, with folks looking for anything other than anecdotal evidence, and there has never been anything conclusive. If you're reading reddit articles from 3 mos ago I've seen those too. Again, just folks spouting off unsupported claims of things like 'Citadel paints alone outsold WHFB' and there's no evidence at all that it's the reason fantasy was redone.
At £25 each, I wouldn't bother. They were a rip-off when they were first released, and are a rip-off now. There are already cheaper printed versions avaliable.
I played back in high school in the early 90s with two of my best friends. After graduation we all went our separate ways, the gaming store in town stopped supporting it and I no longer had anyone to game with. So I sold most of my armies and had to carry on. For me it is a reminder of my youth and the friends left behind by time and distance.
I think the whole “DE n lizardmen” statement is spot on as the latter got updated and we’ve been teased with AoS’ shadow aelves for a while now. However I’m also very cautiously optimistic on The Old World at the moment because I do feel it’s a completely different beast and really needs to bring in a newer fan base of its to be successful or at the very least get more frequent support.
very nice informative video. that being said, I recently got into 3d printed smallscale warhammer armies project. I get two 2000pts armies for 200€ total. They have surprising detail, require one single, easy to transport box, require halve the usual warhammer battlefield size and I can easily crank out one full regiment in an evening without cutting corners. I will follow the flow of old world information but from a price, space and value point of view, watching with interest is all I personally will do with the old world. In no world I am able to imagine myself starting a brand new warhammer fantasy army. The investment on all fronts is putting me off.
I'm personally exited because alot of the models I wanted to collect and drew me into the hobby disapeared before I ever had a chance to buy them. I got into the hobby while end times was happening and so things like dwarves, were gutted before my very eyes. So having a chance to get some of these models would be amazing. Also I often read the lore and books of warhammer fantasy so the chance of more stuff being made for this world is pretty hype
Ditched Fantasy because the models weren't selling anymore, decides to literally release the same old models at a price that's trippled since last on sale I'm sure this is going to go great
I gotta say something with regard to the sprues. For context, I used to work for a plastic injection moulding company. It's most likely that sprues A and B are from the same tool, but the Pegasus is most likely from a different tool. And with the older models from the Tomb Kings, why go through the process of replacing an expensive tool when you have a load of old tools available for models that historically have done quite well. It makes a tremendous amount of sense to me to reuse the old tools.
I was considering coming back to the hobby (i actually used to play undead as a young lad) but i'm astonished that they are charging the prices they are for models from 1993! I think i might just go for OPR instead with some printed miniatures instead.
I know that it's just because I'm an oldhead grognard but the old "bad looking" skeletons look that way on purpose, they're evoking Ray Harryhausen's old claymation movies, the heads are designed to look almost identical. I know it's not everybody's cup of tea but I'm beyond excited to have the opportunity to purchase these models. Well... purchase more of these models without the Ebay markup.
7 factions of the original warhammer battle aren't going to have new figures or have support from GW (lizard men, skaven, dark elves, etc...), I don't think they gave us a new faction for a game they call a "horus heresy like'
@shisakriigel6041 I'm pretty sure they confirmed both kislev and grand cathay as future armies, but its GW so who knows. I'll be waiting to see how things are in a few months to a year.
@@whiteshark0165 Mid 2020 isn't "5 years ago". (Let alone a single article in early 2022 in case people are wondering about Cathay.) Those articles were primarily cross-promotion with Total War: Warhammer III, and Kislev will most certainly arrive not long after the 9 official core factions got their rereleases. It's marked on the map, it gets lore in the core book (Cathay, too), and the TOW narrative is gearing up for the Great War against Chaos, which was fought in Kislev. And unless the game fails spectacularly, we're bound to get proper support for the 7 legacy factions a bit after that, followed by Cathay, and hopefully others (Ind, Khuresh, Nippon, Hobgoblin Khanates, Vampire Coasts, Southlands, Araby, Estalia, Tilea, ...) after that. It's only natural for GW to start this with armies that already have (largely) plastic model ranges, and they never make concrete promises more than a year in advance (and usually much less than that).
Fantasy was not a failure, me and my neighbors all got into it and spent all our money on building our armies. It may seem less accessible than other games due to the sheer size of the armies, but it was very satisfying non the less. I think Games Workshop was surprised with the success of Lord of the Rings and then decided to differentiate their own Fantasy game and try to make it more like 40K and that's how we ended up with Age of Sigmar. They pulled all support for Warhammer Fantasy and left us fans out in the cold. Unfortunately I never got into Sigmar - it was just not MY Warhammer anymore. So I stopped playing altogether.
@@whiteshark0165 I can only speak from my perspective. Most of my friends were in a craze and were collecting Warhammer Fantasy. I was getting every single White Dwarf, and Warhammer Fantasy was always well represented in each issue. But I also lapsed out of the hobby around fall of 2006 when the latest edition of the game with its new set and miniatures was announced. And then when I wanted to get back into it, I was greeted with Age of Sigmar, which didn't click with me.
@@Dosnmeda local communities may have been healthy but the game wasn't. The ENTIRE game was being outsold by tactical marines. Just ONE space marine box was outselling warhammer fantasy battles.
Seems uncharitably harsh on the fanbase as a whole, Dave. GW could simply have made a poor decision. They're not perfect, and they have made more than their fair share of blunders. That aside your free handed unicorn looks badass. Best of luck Liam. Your costume looks awesome. You're the best questie.
The skeletons are from 1993, the horses are from 1987. They just reprinted them in 2003 and added the tomb king bits on a separate sprue. The actual sculpts of the core bones are OLLDDD
Did feel like there is one very obvious attraction to the Old World that Dave didn't hit on? Maybe because it isn't his thing, but big blocks of ranked up infanty just.. don't exist in the rest of GW's ranges. Mobs are a very different thing, both have good points but Hoo Boy have I missed that epic clash
I find it sad the the 2 armies they decided to bring to the front of old world were the two that I remember complained about the most for having outdated models even back then. If I remember correctly Brettonia didn't even have an updated book for the last 2 editions. So I think alot of people (such as my Breton brother) were hoping they'd be getting complete new sculpts in the style of the old world but nope. As for mesbg I think it will heavily depend on how the riders of rohirim movie does, if it goes the way of rings of power then I think it will be killed off
New scultps are hugely expensive. This isn't a mainline release. This is more on the level of Bloodbowl. It's a "specalist game". Releasing with the two worst selling armies is a smart idea. It drives sales for them, and helps indicate how well the more popular armies are likely to do later on.
As an original 2nd Edition player I feel this release is aimed at someone like me to play on nostalgia. Sadly I already own all these Tomb Kings models that I wanted. It's cool to give people the opportunity to buy them off the shelf, but personally I would have much rather have new models for both armies. That would have got me really into it.
part of the issues with Fantasy Battle at its end was the barrier to entry was how many figures you needed to buy, and assemble, before you could play with your friends. This also kept folks from starting second or third armies for the game for the same reason. The system had also bloated out pretty hard and needed a redo into AoS as a new system. Old world is likely to take over as the 4th major game along side 40k, 30k and AoS. It is also a distinctly different feel in play compared to AoS.
Well, considering how I can’t even preorder a rule book because it already sold out, and video jockeys have been receiving everything for free, it seems that the launch is going according to GW’s plan. If it’s not your “cuppa”, I will gladly pay for shipping if you care to ship the Tomb Kings (or Bretonnia) box with rulebook to me in New York. Sincerely. Have a great day!
At first, when you started saying "this isn't my thing" I thought you meant the triangular red measuring sticks and my immediate thought was "clearly this man hasn't tried sword-fighting with them".
i really wanted an updated range, it's ok saying "if you wanted WHF you should have bought it before they killed it" but the fact is it was on it's last legs even when as a kid who couldn't afford the hobby I did used to dream about getting my vampire count army with zombie dragons and corpse carts, but you look at the old zombies, they looked goofy as fuck, even if i could afford it I would have spent the money on lord of the rings or 40k the love from total war:warhammer and vermintide prove the setting is loved enough for it to come back, and coming back but without anything that made the jump ahead into the new setting the same thing with empire troops, as you say in the video, the new models have the genestealer cults problem where each chaff infantryman has the same detail as character models from other factions so they aren't fun to paint if you take joy in doing it well I don't think it would have been so bad if they had kept updating their old range and spun off into AoS, using at least some new models for both the old game and the streamlined new game after playing TW:W2 I wanted nothing more than a clan Skryre army but all of the skaven range that skryre is known for has been sold out every time I have looked, just rechecked, doom wheels, doom flayers, warp lightning cannons and worlock engineers are out of stock, leaving older infantry models that definitely show their age and have nothing to do with the mad scientist vibe I want to go with, most of the available models are old world models I feel like there's a bit missing from the discourse in that attention drives sales and sales drive attention, people want to update their armies with models that look from this decade but because nobody was buying sculpts from 1993 GW canned the old world where they could have gone "we're revamping the range, cutting out what we think is superfluous and adding cool shit" but instead of doing that they released 200 space marine sergeants
so reason that OG WFB died is the same reason why certain armies in 40k and AOS just do not sell because GW are a huge money making machine and wont invest in anything they dont think they will make a huge fortune from. instead they half invest (AOS still selling WFB sculpts for skaven and similar armies that were released in the 90's) People wanted a full range refresh of WFB before it died but GW had not invested any time or effort into it for 3-4 editions.
The release of Warhammer: The Old World gives me mixed feelings. Overall, I really like it and I'm happy they brought back the old factions. I just got into Warhammer Fantasy back in the tail end of 8th edition and bought a ton of Tomb Kings and my mother, who got me into TTRPGs and MTG and Warhammer, bought a bunch of wood elves. It was great and we were putting together and painting models until suddenly the End Times well...ended and we got Age of Sigmar, and both our armies got squatted. They wound up in storage and there were some casualties. Now these armies have rules and a game again. Hurray! But, the new stuff is just the old stuff with a couple of new units thrown in. It's not bad, and adjusted for the new content and inflation the new boxes come out pretty good. They are largely the old boxes with the army rules and core rules thrown in with dice, templates, and a new character tossed in. I understand the frustration at the prices for models older than a good chunk of the people playing but did anyone actually expect anything else? I mean Eldar players still pay new GW prices for models that are of a similar age, so do orc players. Until fairly recently, if you played chaos in AoS, you were still buying the same old Chaos Warrior box just with round bases thrown in. I predict, if the game does well enough, the metal models that came back will get new sculpts and maybe the armies will get refreshes. Likely at the rate that Horus Heresy gets new stuff, at least once all of the announced armies get their releases, so buckle up for that I guess. If it does really well they might give it a new edition and bring back more armies. If you don't want to pay 2024 GW prices for 1990s GW models then 3d print them, forget about official events, buy the rules maybe, and play with friends at your local game store. I'll be doing that to replace my broken stuff, and there is really cool looking stuff out there if you know where to look. Even if you don't want to print them yourself, there are plenty of sellers who will print them for you and it will still be cheaper, and even if it isn't, it probably looks better.
Lots of love and luck to Liam! Congrats on the new job! - That said, yeah, I think I'm in the "disappointed" camp for this one. I saw all the new cool models in that Cities of Sigmar box and got my hopes up, and to see their two launch boxes including THIRTY year old models, chock full of mold lines, is just... not at all what I'd want to spend my money on.
The templates were originally orange and came in both 40k and fantasy main boxed sets, there was also the smoky white version you could get on its own (and were about 1mm smaller lol), one of the sets even had a dark red set, I can't remember which set though. The green ones didn't appear until the 40k Apocalypse rules came out, they were also a different design and thicker than the older ones.
Personally have the opposite reaction to the exluded factions. I dont, and have never, played age of sigmar but loved fantasy battles and am really excited for old world. If the reason that we dont see factions in old world is because they have been stolen to put into AoS then that isnt a point of celebration for me, its a real shame. I hope we see them expand the roster of factions down the line, especially for some of the missing core races like skaven and lizardmen because I think the game needs those to really capture the oldhammer vibe.
GW never released sales numbers for WFB separately. Saying that it was killed because of low sales is still speculation. The naming conventions in AoS on the other hand point towards wanting to trademark everything possible in the setting.
There is zero reason for a company to destroy a setting if it was selling well, regardless of wanting to trademark everything. Its literally the only reason possible for a corporation.
@@stephenjenkins7971 Unless 1) you expect to sunset one setting and get people to buy in your new shiny and trademarked system. You could make that easier by saying that you can use most of your old models and that there is no need to rebase (which was explicitly stated in the rules) and of course 2) if continuing your setting will lead what you see as your IP to become indefensible with any 3rd party able to market and advertise their models for your setting (see Chapterhouse trial).
for me TOW's appeal is a rank & file battle game, where you can play armies that reasonably sell the fantasy of an army in battles that feel like battles, but where the game still can be played out in a couple hours. By comparison large model count games of AoS, 40k, or MESBG get bogged down in measuring and moving hundreds of individual models that in TOW would measure & move as a half dozen block units. As for old models, if you're playing at GW stores or events that might be a problem, but if you're playing at home, private clubs, or independent game stores there are tons of alternatives, especially if you have access to a resin 3d printer.
Of course it is Dead on Arrival, it was obvious from the start and the more time passes the more obvious that fact becomes. The revived the game because they realized it gained a lot of popularity thanks to videogames, namely Vermintide and Total War Warhammer. But they waited way, WAY too long to the point that both of these games have now lost most if not all of their relevance (in the case of TWW the game exploded in a spectacular fashion due to the impressive incompetence of Creative Assembly, the game developers). Then they announced they would pick an older timeline nobody ever asked for and even less people are interested in, ESPECIALLY not the videogame players from Total War, a game that heavily (too heavily) focus on the special characters of the "current time line". Then they announced they wouldn't bother updating the models and would instead do what they always do, sell 30 years old mainline troops (at an extremely inflated price) while forcing in new units nobody asked for. It's especially egregious when you look at stuff like the Tomb Kings skeletons which are the poster boys for "90's era manufacturing limitations". They look just straight out bad and cartoony by today's standards. Then they announced they wouldn't support a good chunk of the factions (including the Skavens which are at the center of the Vermintide videogam). Then they grossly underproduced the minies and stuck to the old and intentionally expensive book system for the rules. This game is made for nobody. Not for the new players that come from the videogames, not for the people looking for good miniature, not for the people looking for a easy way to get into (if you can't buy the mini, you can't get into the game), and not for the lore nerds (ie the majority of GW "audience") that honestly don't give a rat's ass about that era. Its a shame really, all they had to do is pick up the Storm of Chaos timeline, and continue the story from there, make new and updated models for the armies they'll roll out bit by bit (the character design is already done by CA for TWW, all they had to do was to make the minies) and make sure they produce enough stuff for the game to spread around quickly. Edit: Oh yeah, and I forgot to mention the fact that the new models are (mostly) in Forge World Resin (with the price that goes with it). Yeah. This game is beyond DoA.
My biggest thing is feeling like I’m being taken for a ride. The Old World is back! Sort of. New models! Maybe one? Whole army in a box! For how much? There’s two many head scratchers here and it feels really “scammy” to me. I could be wrong and everything works out but I’m not taking that risk now for sure. Even if I like both factions they released and have been fantasy-curious for a while.
My big nostalgic question from the box: Do the whip-it-sticks (as we called them in my high school group, the range-rulers is what we are talking about) still measure about 1/4" short?
I was interested, then they announced that both my armies lizardmen and vampire counts will not be supported , so feck em, totally the wrong way to make a first impression for the game . They have really really phoned it in and it shows.
The biggest thing I see is, is gw has realised what killed fantasy it was you were forced to have a ridiculous amount of models due to 8th being hordes of models. So they release a game which you can play at small points if you don't want to have a heap of models and if your a fantasy player that loves hordes etc go ahead. It addresses fantasy issues that people have it adjusts some of the bad rules and makes them streamlined for better fun games
The thing that just rubs me the wrong way is how GW didn’t even bother to release a completely revamped army box for the Tomb Kings. Brettonia got WAY more love and the Tomb Kings only got TWO new models which is just a disgrace. We’ve been waiting for this since 2019 and it’s just the older models? What happened to all of the model updates we were promised.
I already play AoS, Necromunda, and Grim Dark Future. Old world would really have to knock my socks off in order to add it into the suite of games I play and collect. Rank and flank doesn't appeal very much either so not likely that I'll be playing it personally. But I am happy people who want to play it have it and I hope it takes off.
@@simonwilliamnoelmurray9179yeah, that and horrific planning, trying to release both the old world and legion's imperialis while also keeping up regular release for 40k,30k , sigmar, necromunda. Allll while not actually increasing their production rates or back end factories
@@trimeerious4349 true but I think all those armies bar Skaven and Dark Elves have sweet AoS models like the Lizardmen? Can just put them on square bases.
Look, I really liked the look of of Fantasy when I was an 8 year old. But what I didn't like as an 8 year old was the price. I could not afford 40K and Fantasy. And since all my friends did 40k, I went for 40k. I stopped the hobby for a while when I was about 14 but got back into it when I was 20. By which time Fantasy had disappeared. I had no idea when I walked into a Games Workshop for the first time in 6 years, and the sight of Age of Sigmar everywhere was strange. I didn't know what to think at the time. But my new gaming friends wanted to do MESBG so I did that anyway. Later doing 40K again and finally buying some AOS (not that I ever liked it as much as old fantasy.) So when I heard fantasy was coming back, thats great. However, I don't know if I can afford it again. In the past 3 years, I've forked out for 40K Indomitus, AOS Dominion, Kill Team Octarius, HH Age of Darkness, Cursed City, MESBG Battle of Osgiliath, War cry Crypt of Blood, a new Leagues of Votaan army, a ton of little bits for almost all of these systems, and most recently, Legions Imperialis (which hasn't even arrived yet because I pre ordered it and GW didn't make enough so i'm waiting for a damned restocking before I get my copy.) After all of this, last thing I need is another new game system, only a month or so after the last big purchase, which has left me broke. It's too much. And this is just one of my problems with Old World. Why is it that they can't restock the last big game and yet they are using all these resources to produce a new big game. Is Legions Imperialis going to fail? Because as far as I see it, the hype was over as quickly as it started in favour of the next new thing, and when people are still waiting for their copies, then how much excitement can their really be for a game which had 3 seconds of fame. And this is not to mention the fact that like half of the MESBG range is either out of stock or not available at all. 40K has many items out of stock. Kill Team does too. Lots of the current games are struggling to produce enough stock. So why the hell are they making another game? It all too much too soon. And then my next problem is cost. These kits are old. Things cost a lot less then. But no, these kits which by todays standards cost next to nothing at the time, now are being sold at a premium 2024 price. No better example than the Battle for Macragge box that went back on sale last month. A box which originally released at £40, which according to inflation should now cost £69, but GW was charging £90. It's disgusting. And Old World is going to be no different. Why should I pay £36 for 3 grail nights from at least 6th edition (2000/ 24 years old) or £52 for 3 Ushabti, also from at least 6th Edition. These models were not worth this much then, they certainly aren't worth it now. Speaking of worth, these models were ditched by GW in 2015. When GW saw no value in the game as a whole. Some of the armies stayed for AOS such as Skaven and Lizardmen. But Tomb Kings and Bretonnia didn't stick around. I guess they were models that sold poorly even for Warhammer fantasy standards. These models were deemed unfit for sale and so GW got rid of it all. So what changed? Why is it that GWs poor selling game is back? It seems like a giant risk to me. Bringing back to life something which had little value left to give. And this brings me to my final issue. If it didn't sell in 2015 when people only had Fantasy, 40K and MESBG, why would it be a seller now when people have 40K, HH, KT, AOS, Warcry, MESBG, Legions Imperialis, and many more. It breaks up the fan bases. Straight away, people like me will be thinking, I don't want to start a new game so they will avoid it from the beginning. Likely scenario for it will be people buy the models but sice AOS has the newer, better models, with better support and huge armies already, they will still be playing AOS instead. And then worst case scenario, people buy it and play it. But then AOS which from what I hear is already struggling, will lose interest as people flock to the new old worlds game. Either way, I see many fantasy players torn between Fantasy and AOS, or their being a clear winner and one of the having to be cancelled again. Seems silly to me to have another game when GW already has an ungodly amount of games people have to pick between. So as much as this announcement originally had me intrigued, I now believe it to be a great financial gamble which won't pay off, which shows a much more exploitative side of GW and which has lost me a lot of respect for the company. I will not pay a premium for old shit. I just will not. And I will be super pissed off if them branching out again leads to more stock issues in the future.
This channel introduced me to Warhammer and I just got my first kit. Despite this not being a tutorial based channel these videos have really helped with the painting and my first models actually look good! Which was a surprise to be sure but a welcome one. Thanks y’all
Nice work team. Its not the model, it's the paint job that makes it. The old stuff was a bit chunky compared to those produced today, but with a good paint job can still look outstanding. I have the original Fellowship of the Ring (including Bill the pony) by Citadel from the same era, purchased in 1991 in London. They are great. Happy Modelling
Best thing gw did for mesbg was to leave it alone. Every event I’ve attended over the past 15 years for it has been great, where everyone had a great time, which is in contrast to their other games, where the communities often follow the latest meta and become toxic. On the old world, I have continued to play 8th and regularly attend sold old independent events for it where the player base is almost as good as the middle earth one as it’s people that just want to have fun and embrace the narrative. Have to say this is the first time I’ve been disappointed by one of your videos, usually they are excellent, but it was clear that Dave probably wasn’t the best suited to do the review especially if Jen and Murray were more interested in/ hyped by the release.
I was under the impression they were going to be refreshing the range, but this seems like the most strategic milking of old molds they've ever attempted.
Bet a hunner quid the reason it's brets and TKs is because its all the old shit that never sold when they moved to AOS that was sitting in a storage locker somewhere
I would almost agree but they have no storage space, hence poor release and stock issues. More likely those molds were in better shape, less used, and was easier to start injecting with.
As someone who wasn't around to get into Warhammer Fantasy before it was axed but has gotten really into the setting with its recent resurgence, it's really disappointing to see them repackage and sell 30 year old models without much updates to them at all. And knowing GW, they're gonna be selling them at luxury prices as always. I was honestly really excited to see Bretonians and other old factions come back after being passed up for Age of Sigmar and I figured this would be an amazing opportunity to update the models with some fresh new details (though Dave makes a good point about over detailing basic models). I know there's a classic feel and look to them and that may appeal to many fans of Fantasy, but I feel like there's no real intention to support and update these models much in the future like I thought which is a real let down. Fantasy had some really great lore and story that just didn't carry over at all into Age of Sigmar, taking on a completely different vibe. It would've been cool to have fresh new models that got back to that more classic and grounded aesthetic that the Old World should have.
The Pegasus mount may not have a letter on the sprue if they were made completely separate to the riders. It would allow GW to print mounts on their own for new riders in the future.
why did i get the sudden urge to play vermintide 2 or total war warhammer... I really hope old world survives, this dark fantasy universe has a special place in my heart. RIP warhammer online: age of reckoning you will be forever missed 😢
Vermintide is an End Times adventure, ironic isn't it? And this “new old world” is infinitely far from the concept of Grimdark. Good and Evil sides? Female knights..
IMO GW is testing the waters. Thing is - there was a lot of hype around Old World when they announced it. It was just after the Total War Warhammer 3 release fiasco when GW backed down on some of the promises (Kislev, Cathay) and definitely took a safer approach. They didn't wanted to scrap the project because there was still a lot of hype around it but they weren't sure if the product will sell. That's why we are seeing old sculpts next to the new ones. I think if the game actually sales well and churns thru its 1st edition with a lot of happy customers - we might as well see much more minis in future editions (and probably armies coming back too!) I wouldn't be surprised if they even started releasing new (optional) sculpts for existing units. But as I said before - it all depends on the sales.
If people support it they will do more! But I think a bit more effort on launch would have gone a long way. For example, a single new skeleton sprue for tomb kings would have meant like 50% of the volume of the entire army would be done. One sprue.
Words of truth! And lets all be honest - skeletons ain't really that complicated and can be easily made very modular. I'm a 3d sculptor running a pretty small but successful business and I'm pretty sure I can make decent modular skeleton set in two weeks.@@TabletopTime
What do you do with "Dad's Army" of old? New box, new characters, for new kids, who can also use "Dad's Old Army" too. Bridges the generation gap, so those old painted up armies can be dusted off and played again. Old World was about Big armies. Old ready to go painted armies can join the fresh new stuff, to get Giant armies. Or just speed paint up the new stuff. Bridges the generations, without reinventing the wheel. These don't have to be huge sellers, but its sound they are still given some respect and being played.
Technically from a lore perspective, it makes sense to not have any of the legacy factions because they either weren't really around yet (vampire counts) were not really a united force (skaven) or come from a completely different continent (Dark Elves, Lizardmen) but then, Tomb Kings and High Elves also technically could fall under these categories, so it is a little odd.
Vampire counts have come and gone by this point. This is actually less than a century after Mannfred's defeat. This is the 30 year on ramp to the Great Chaos Invasion, elves start working with humans, Settra awakening and trying to expand the empire again, before getting smashed by dwarfs and Bretonni
I don’t really know who this product is intended for as the old players still have their old models and the new players won’t want old ugly sculpts and everyone else either isn’t interested or they have an old army that is no longer supported like the fan favourite skaven (I kept mine on square bases for no reason…)
"Not supported" means no balance updates. How many of those did we get during the Fantasy run? It'll be reet. Plenty of people don't have all the minis they want, or fancy picking up that army they never got around to.
Thanks for the review, even if it pushes me off the fence. I was potentially interested when I first heard the hype. Hearing the price already had me leaning towards "pass", but now seeing they simply dug out so many of the old molds has me firmly landed in the "hard pass" category now.
There are a few armies that are known to be coming, the really big one is that Kislev is coming back for it. That's one that they released a LOT of concept art for shortly after their initial announcement for Old World. I've got a friend who is also hoping for more Wood Elves...she went all in on a combo Brettonian/Wood Elf army when the End Times was announced and was extremely angry about the end of Warhammer Fantasy. I'm really hoping that their vampire counts rules includes the Vampire Coast sub faction, because my army had a detachment of them to back up the rest of my vamps. Rolling in with gun toting undead with cannons was hilarious to see the WTF look on a lot of people who hear Vampire Counts and then see that particular band of crazies as part of a force.
Warhammer fantasy didn't die, GW had abandoned the player base. 8th edition was barely recognizable to veteran players and a lot of people were fed up. GW doubled down on their error by destroying "the old world" and remarketing it as the pogo stick of the chess(fantasy) vs checkers(40k) argument.
I can't believe how much they charge for such old models. I don't mind old sculpts, I find them kind of endearing actually, but I'd expect a more reasonable price if half the box is older than me. On an unrelated note, that shield freehand looks awesome!
for me, the pricing on the rank and file models are ridiculous. 12 battle pilgrims for £50! I've had multiple friends ask me if I have 3d files to print them. I hate the idea of it, but if we looking to play in the setting, then books + 3d models of the same if not better quality of sculpt is currently where we will be going.
I'm from the UK and the price is insanely high for some of the old crappy models and new ones too, completely put me off tbh, I was only marginally interested though. And I agree with you, I dislike the old models a lot, I like new cool sculpts TK looks goofy asf, and then again, you see the price and you're like...yh no thanks, I get people are nostalgic for them but I do think there is a blindness to how much of a rip off all this is.
Also in the UK and NGL, I was a little hyped for TOW. However, seeing a £155 box for Bretonnia that contains very little was off putting to say the least. It’s a shame, because I generally prefer the grittier style of Fantasy and dislike the whole AoS aesthetic. I think GW are just going to take the money and run. I’m not sure if decent sales will force them to support TOW… but I could see them doing a half-assed job and then blaming “poor sales” again.
The very split opinion on this kinda speaks to why they killed it as a core game system in the first place. Obviously AoS caused an uproar, but since then, the overall reception was much more positive than even 40k after the community massively helped them through the growing pains.
People, myself included, might slag AOS off... but my gaming club has a very active AOS scene with a competitive Leage and Paths of Glory campaign group. At least a dozen players, probably more. I was never a WHFB (I went with MESBG and 40K 5E) but I always liked the Old World setting far more than AOS.
Correction: Dave erroneously stated that the army books were not being released at the same time as the arcane journals. This is incorrect. You will note they are not featured in the video. We misread embargo information, and made a mistake. These books are available on launch. These errors are easy to make with a 2 day turnaround from getting products to releasing videos. Apologies. You still need 3 books to play with Elisse Duchard though ;)
He also said Al from Home Improvement when he meant Wilson.
Pre orders sold out????? Wtf GW don't understand what pre-orders are I guess it's to be expected when you hire gender studies majors to handle actual buisness ffs!
You know, I'm starting to Doubt Dave. Strange Ladies distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
@@aristeia71yep, did also get that off the cuff reference to a show my dad watched when I was 5 wrong. If only we had more than 2 days to make this video 😂
I feel like it might have been more helpful to simply remove the erroneous part of the video. So much he said was incorrect it’s almost not worth watching.
As a Skaven player who sold his army and then decided to buy two huge army sets month before GW said Skaven won't really be there... I might be digging under a building in Nottingham. Yes-yes.
I`ll start the game probably with my skaven too. And while they won`t be in gws statement tournament lega, I have a feeling we‘ll see a lot of tournament organizer who‘ll probably just ignore those words
@@skreechverminking2227 I'm just waiting to know the base sizes before i rebase my army, yes, yes.
Skaven are totally playable
@@fragfmgill We will see. They already said there will be no support for "legacy" armies post release and you won't be able to play them on official events.
Do it I’ll help you dig 😂
For me, the appeal of Old World is that is classic, stereotypical fantasy. There's a lot I like about AoS, but a lot of it takes the weird fantasy to an extreme that I bounce off, whereas Old World is just middle of the road classic sword and sorcery which is an aesthetic I a more interested in.
I would say also a lot of AoS is high fantasy, whereas the oldworld is often low fantasy
Fantasy Battles have always been very high fantasy. Total War is an insanely high fantasy with huge flocks of dinosaurs, dragons and mammoths. Dragon God Space Emperor of China especially.
And this Old World is just a soy fantasy with Good versus Evil on a copied map of Europe.
@@Basil_Ghothickovitch common Age of Soymar L
@@wulf2757 grognard
@@wulf2757 You realise he was talking about Warhammer Fantasy, right?
In terms of who the new buyers are: its people who found it through Total War: Warhammer.
I am super nostalgic for The Old World, but my issue currently is neither launch armies were one I'm interested in personally.
This I am excited for this but neither starter launch army interest me either
You should be worried about the pricing benchmarks moving forward if the first two releases are anything to go by. Depending where you are in the world, something like three Ushabti will run you about $80-$100. Selling upwards of three decade old models - many of which are awful metal and resin - for prices which sometime exceed modern counterparts is not a sustainable long-term business model.
Who in gods name is buying 30 year old models new. There's thousands of points out there for you on the secondary market! Go! Feast!!
total war player here. most of us won't buy into that cash grab. its expensive, has old and some ugly models and the gameplay isn't nearly as dynamic as total war games. just take the tables, for example. there is no space for movement. even the really small total war: warhammer maps are A LOT bigger than those gaming tables.
I think you have your answer, like the gent in the video I turned my nose up at these minis as a 10 year old 20 years ago because they looked old and naff. This won't bring new people into the game.
“…any paint job can save the way an old model looks…” Catachan Jungle fighters would like a world with you
i painted a whole army of these fellas and yes. need someone with talent to paint then. and the owner of the army told me that he loved the end result but for me is not the best painting possible. but yea... catachan and old sisters of battle needs someone with good painting hands.
Durthu the Treeman from the early 90's would definitely require a master painter and then some.
[Nagash the Clown Prince of Undeath has entered the chat]
It's a shame. The metal catachans looked so God damn cool
One exception: the Catachan diorama at Warhammer World in Nottingham.
It is small, in a hall full of dioramas, but the way that the Catachans actually looked contemporary really caught my eye.
Massive buzz for it here in UK. Now bring back Mordheim, but rebooted. Reloaded and expanded on with a terror gripping background story.
UK has always had a bigger fantasy playerbase.
IMO Mordheim or "Mordheim" should be refreshed as a fantasy "necromunda" line. With no skaven support this game is a pass for me for now until maybe we get some kiselv
Sadly, I’m in the UK and there is 0 hype near me! Four LGSes, only 2 are even stocking the game, let alone playing it…
@@theonlyenicfanever5346Same here north east UK, absolutely no interest at all in my hobby groups and FLGS’s
I live here and yet to see anybody play 40k or AOS in the north west. Super rare. At times I forget it’s a British company
So their using moulds from GW’s early days in using plastics? I worked in the factory in 1993 which produced these minis and all plastic kits, rhino, land raider etc, so i do have very fond memories of those skeleton hordes and endless mk1 space marines on sprues, i worked there for 2 years and my job was mixing the polymers with colours and release agents to fill up the machines hoppers, mundane AF but i loved working there, plus i worked with my father, who too worked for the company so i get very misty eyed whenever anything from this era comes along! That does date me somewhat, in fact this coming monday i turn 50, and i began painting citadel miniatures in the mid 1890s right up to leaving school, by the time i worked in that factory, i was over the miniatures, but i still loved seeing new moulds produce brand new minis and kits, exciting times!
Your 50 but you've been painting since the mid 1890's!? Wow, can I use your time machine please?
mmmh yes the 1890s. good times. lead models , lead paint, lead bases truly the golden age of wargaming XD
haha well im definitely being trolled, so that definitely makes me a youtuber now 😂
I can give GW respect for using two armies that got totally removed from AoS as their launch factions. My only concern is how they will handle it. GW REALLY needs to treat the setting and game with care in my opinion.
They're already going full-throttle into that "Lawful Good vs Chaotic Evil" instead of the moral greyness of the old stuff and it's really concerning. The history nerds who wrote for GW have left long ago in favor of safe, sales-conscious, comic book writers.
@@TaRAAASHBAGS Which is odd because several of the factions don't fit either if you look at them...especially the Brettonian/Wood Elf fluff...or entire forces that are more neutral or even opposite of the main faction.
For example the old Strigoi were good guys that were also undead monsters, protecting the living of their people. The Tomb Kings tended to be more straight up neutral because they tended to not care as much unless someone else set them off.
Made me laugh out loud when Dave said he was impartial half way through the vid 😂
After watching 15 minutes of him almost chundering due to all the old/recycled sculpts and art charged at modern prices.
I certainly started impartial... Aka, had no real interest in it either way.
@@TabletopTimeif you had no interest then why do it and be mostly negative. I understand people have their personal tastes. I for one really enjoyed Warhammer, both the modeling aspect and especially the game play. Why not play a few games and get an overall experience of the whole project as well - before digging a grave.
You did have a valid point of support, but speaking as a Warhammer TO and player. There are a lot of people that played and many of them never touched Sigmar because the rules and game play did not appeal to those players as Warhammer Fantasy did.
I loved Warhammer Fantasy for its rules which, at the time, I found were more tactical that 40k of the time. The models age never bothered me. That being said, I played a magic heavy vampire counts army and with the change to the magic phase, I'm waiting to see how they play before committing to the system
Sadly vamp counts aren't supported, sadly.
They won't play at all my man, they will recieve no special rules and no continuing support. Just an army list.
@@belianore8999 Well, the army list will have army's special rules, like those take like page or two....
We will have special rules, just not the fancy alternative army lists. Fantasy didn't have balance updates through the previous 8 editions. So long as the initial rules are reasonable, it'll be fine. Obviously, they could be terrible! @@belianore8999
Honestly, the opening bit has me in stitches. Editor Liam in full armour and stuff, looking straight out of a movie set, and then Jenn as the Lady of the Lake just in a TTT Shirt and Jeans. You have bamboozled me. I somehow knew the lady would be Jenn, but for some reason i was expecting a medieval gown or something. Completely blindsided by normal clothes.
Now to actually watch the video hahaha
Edit: Farewell, Noble Sir Liam! Your work will never be forgotten. Good luck on your mighty quest.
I might have to collect something in the Old World. If they release Cathay im definately getting those, but that feels unlikely since that'd be a buttload of new minis. I'll likely end up going Orcs or something again, like I did in my youth, or perhaps i'll finally be able to field the clan Skryre list of my dreams.
I am not deeply familiar with Australian terminology for particular bodies of water; but would she not be the Sheila of the Billabong?
Kinda sucks Jen and Murray weren't there to open up and talk about the boxsets. It would have been more interesting when it's from people who actually were looking forward to this release.
Random tarts distributing swords is no basis for a crafting video!! You see this?! Whats next?! Terrain from coconuts?! I dare say, wait til Tim hears about this! Release the rabbits!!
Can i have just a little bit of temptation?
It'll only be a scratch to him
I would counter your point about middle earth being squatted, they apparently hired a new sculptor dedicated to middle earth a few months ago, something they wouldn’t likely do if they were planning to discontinue the game any time soon
Hope so
I hope you're right. If they axe MESBG, Im out
I think in the MESBG case it's more about GW wanting to keep the LOTR rights so others can't have it rather than actually wanting to do something with it.
Or they were banking on the Amazon show being a huge hit to draw more punters in. The show was the opposite though haha
@derryburns8968 good idea, but the sculptor was hired quite a long time after the show, so they would have known
It all really looks like one of those projects that has potential but is treated by GW as a side/specialist game that will be around in obscurity for a bit, especially with all the old models and resin being a large part of the range. Looks like the HH of fantasy right now.
exactly.
Imagine GW was smart and would have redone the whole system wholeheartedly with complete new models, streamlined rules, easy entrypoint and a marketing campaign tailored for the 1 million strong total war playerbase.
As a slightly bitter Heresy guy, I feel so much better about the amount of plastic kits I got that are new compared to these. Some of these are more expensive than my new kits with more dudes in them.
@@envaya9838 Considering that WHFB failed to begin with, that is pure cope on your part. GW was smart, and sold TOW as a specialist game without spending much by using old models while using modern prices. They will have a small but dedicated fanbase and expand from there.
Now imagine just how much that would cost, and try to work out how they are goign to fit that into their already over-streatched production schedule. Old World is a risky investment. That was never going to happen.@@envaya9838
Between using 30-year-old sculpts, key Fantasy armies like Dark Elves, Lizardmen, and Skaven not getting support, day 1 DLC books, and more, this seems like a pile of bad decisions all lumped together. Given the smash popularity of Total War Warhammer and Vermintide, this should have been an easy win to sell to new fans of the video games and oldheads alike, and maybe even AoS players if they had let the armies cross-pollinate more. Instead, GW chose the "shooting yourself in the foot" option by being cheap as possible and showing as little confidence in the product as they could, not including armies that could potentially draw sales away from AoS and doing the minimum amount of work.
I think that because of the failure of Fantasy, GW (not unreasonably) also expects this game to be DoA. They're only doing this because TWW and Vermintide made an opening for them to sell old world models again. They want to leave themselves that MESBG-like production pipeline open - as you described - if the game randomly proves popular, but by doing as little as possible they're letting themselves fleece the nostalgia crowd and the TWW community for a bit with minimal investment, earn their RoI, and when the property inevitably fails because of this self-fulfilling prophecy they've created, they'll just move on.
TLDR in my eyes, the Old World launch is just another crash course in killing your own product line through refusal to take risks and commit, but will still be a successful business venture because hedging your bets and fleecing people's nostalgia is a tried-and-true tactic to make a quick buck off an old property.
GW loathed mixing units from different games together. Plenty of HH Marines would fit fine in 40k, but they refuse to allow them to cross. The same applies here I guess, where plenty of AoS stuff can easily fit in TOW.
You can see by the lack of marketing how much GW wants to invest into Fantasy - not much.
TOW players wanted the "classic" models because "we don't want Age of Shigmar models in our beloved Fantasy ! Old World is Old World ! We hate AoS and want none of it in TOW ! ", and GW gave them the classic models. Even if they look like... they were made 20 years ago, which they are.
Won't stop converters from using them, but officially, it might be the best move from GW to appease the very anti-AoS Fantasy/Old World community.
@@Basil_Ghothickovitch Honestly Im not sure how big that crowd really is. I wrote of age of sigmar on launch, I hated the end times and the fact that GW had canned my childhood game, but when I saw that the announcment for ToW came out I was excited and started looking at some of the Aos range for inspiration in getting back into a fantasy game. I really love the new models a lot and from there seen that some of the AoS lore is good too. This launch has indirectly made me more intrested in Aos (or at least the models) than I ever was! taking off the rose tinted glasses while still giving me an opertunity to play the classic game if i really want too.
@@Basil_GhothickovitchPeople want to use good looking models in their games. I have heard no complaining about the updated Greenskins, Lizardmen and Vampire Count AOS miniaturs. A lot of the AOS miniatures are too high fantasy for a lot of fantasy players, like the mountain cow elf line or the fish elves.
I think one of the points of using the older models, especially in the launch sets, is nostaligia marketing. Both for those who collected when it was originally around and will be excited to see it on the shelves again. And also as was said, for those who couldn't collect it at the time, but want to now.
Also, using the older moulds is a wise move on GWs part, as it allows them to gauge interest without spending a lot of money on the production of new moulds.
Dave: i'm not going to spend much time on this model.
Also Dave: NMM and amazing shield freehand
xD
Welp mordheim models, necromunda conversions. And oldworld models are back on the menu it seems.
If in doubt any model can be a necromunda model. And a mordheim if you get all the scfi stuff removed.
Heck yeah.
1:28 I think the neighbor who never showed his whole face was Wilson, Al was the Tool Time co-host.
To me it just doesn’t feel like WHFB when we’re missing so many races.
Don't worry if it goes well more will be added over time for sure
@@sparta1821I realy don't belive it.😢
Same, without all these factions and limited to only one area it isn't WHFB and I won't touch it.
Missing most of my favorite armies 😢
I would wager that they will give each army supported a sort of relaunch.
But not haveing Skaven? Wuuuuuuut?
Atleast haveing support for their PDF armies would be expected :/
They are hinting at moveing the story / year forward. So hopeing they can add more armies later. If the game sells well enough for a Old World 2nd edition
Tomb Kings remind me of the skeletons from Jason and the Argonauts, so I find their proportions charming.
Yeah, I remember that film as a kid. Really got me into skeletons, haha. Tomb Kings' theme is cool, as well. I always liked them. I dislike Sigmar, personally.
Note: Tomb Kings were likely inspired by old skeletons, though I have no idea if it was based on Jason or not. Maybe the big heads were for the same reasons: detail. Or, maybe the proportions are quite realistic? If you look at real human skeletons, the head is fairly large, the arm bones are tiny, and the chest/ribs are large. So, no matter what, the arms are too large for the GW minis. They likely couldn't make them any smaller without risking it falling apart.
Hey with that perspective that makes me actually really like them
I was genuinely horrified when I saw the old horses were just being rolled into this new release...
Just feels so low effort for such a huge box price tag. Not a good sign for how they plan to support the game either, that they are leaning this hard on old moulds this early on
Sculpting new kits is expensive. It's even more expensive to create molds for plastic models. GW doesn't know how well it's going to do, so it makes sense to use existing models at release. There are a lot of AoS kits that have only fairly recently been replaced. Skaven & Beastmen are still rocking 30 year old kits, and at AoS prices.
@@zlobzorsounds like the big company is being lazy and want it to fail
Problem is that's a double edge sword-if you *don't* put in the effort, people might either A: consider it lazy if they know that or B: consider them to just look weird and bad if they don't and kill the game before they get to see how it'd do, pre-destining it to failure. @@zlobzor
Goddbye Liam! You really have done great work for the channel. All the best to you!
Its VERY worrying that there's not enough different new models. Just seems like the olde style GW "half-arse launch then never support the game past launch" they used to do. Without new models, there isn't going to be any fiscal traction so I can't see how GW will support it unfortunately (old Skaven player here btw)
Remember, this is a specalist game, not a core line. They don't expect the same sales volume as AoS & 40K, so the investment isgoing to be smaller. New kits are hugely expensive to produce. Looking at the way the game has sold so far, stuff is selling well.
Hell, go look at the current AoS skaven range.
Another channel flicked through the "forces of good" army book and based on what he said, it sounds like my main army of Dwarfs are going from 20mm to 25mm square bases. About half of my army started as Skull Pass minis so they should transfer easily enough, but I think the better option overall would be to print base adaptors for everything that need them.
I play Oldhammer.. never stopped. I 3d print most of my miniatures these days and I just upgraded to an Elegoo 12k Saturn 3 ultra printer to go along with my Mono X 6k so my costs are low, my options are plentiful and I can print a whole unit in 90 mins for a couple of dollars (literally) and there are exceptional scrumptious sculpts. I don't need GW if they are not servicing my needs. Be like me, go your own way by rewarding good products and ignoring everything else.
Your costs aint that low. Have you calculated the time investment involved in learning how to set up your printers?
It's cool you've got the free time for another not cheap hobby. :)
@15:50 Fantasy has always sold less than 40K, but poor sales was not the reason the company switched to AoS. This isn't even difficult to track down and find out about. 10+ years back GW was losing market share to lots of up-and-coming competitors, so there was some financial pressures, but that's not what started the ball rolling. In response to competition GW initiated a risky legal challenge against Chapter House, which GW subsequently lost and opened up a Pandora's box by way of setting precedent with that failed case. During the legal challenge it became clear that too many of the races and things in the fantasy range were common names (just like the problematic 'space marine' from the GW vs Chapter House fiasco) and as a result we ended up with all of the stupid AoS names for things that could be legally covered in future as GW intellectual copyright. I'm not aware of whether GW may have been planning an end to the Old World prior to their Chapter House lawsuit, but all these names and the AoS setting was just to protect the value of their intellectual assets and shareholder returns. Suggesting it's because people just weren't financially supporting fantasy is a misrepresentation.
This is copium, it’s pretty well known from tons of GW managers that it was being old-sold by paint. Fantasy just wasn’t popular by 8th and the barrier for entry was too large.
@@logiebear911 Sorry logiebear911? Who has ingested all this copium? It may be you. The only time GW released a breakdown of sales figures was during the whole Chapterhouse court case. This claim of '___ outsold fantasy' is tired and unsupported as the real reason GW tried to re-launch their fantasy setting. This concept has been covered on sites like dakkadakka, with folks looking for anything other than anecdotal evidence, and there has never been anything conclusive. If you're reading reddit articles from 3 mos ago I've seen those too. Again, just folks spouting off unsupported claims of things like 'Citadel paints alone outsold WHFB' and there's no evidence at all that it's the reason fantasy was redone.
The modular movement trays were a surprise for sure, but a welcome one. Thank you Liam, good luck!
At £25 each, I wouldn't bother. They were a rip-off when they were first released, and are a rip-off now. There are already cheaper printed versions avaliable.
I played back in high school in the early 90s with two of my best friends. After graduation we all went our separate ways, the gaming store in town stopped supporting it and I no longer had anyone to game with. So I sold most of my armies and had to carry on. For me it is a reminder of my youth and the friends left behind by time and distance.
I think the whole “DE n lizardmen” statement is spot on as the latter got updated and we’ve been teased with AoS’ shadow aelves for a while now. However I’m also very cautiously optimistic on The Old World at the moment because I do feel it’s a completely different beast and really needs to bring in a newer fan base of its to be successful or at the very least get more frequent support.
I love your skits. Liam cuts a fine figure in that armour.
very nice informative video. that being said, I recently got into 3d printed smallscale warhammer armies project. I get two 2000pts armies for 200€ total. They have surprising detail, require one single, easy to transport box, require halve the usual warhammer battlefield size and I can easily crank out one full regiment in an evening without cutting corners. I will follow the flow of old world information but from a price, space and value point of view, watching with interest is all I personally will do with the old world. In no world I am able to imagine myself starting a brand new warhammer fantasy army. The investment on all fronts is putting me off.
It's cool you've had the time and money to invest in 3D printing. Plenty of peopel don't have that luxury. :p
@@zlobzor wargamerminis and excellent miniatures got me covered. I did not buy a printer myself
@@zlobzor for the price of one starter box (200€) you can buy a resin printer and print a full army
I think old world is going to end up much bigger than anyone expects
If they continue with the current pace of releases, no it won't.
I'm personally exited because alot of the models I wanted to collect and drew me into the hobby disapeared before I ever had a chance to buy them. I got into the hobby while end times was happening and so things like dwarves, were gutted before my very eyes. So having a chance to get some of these models would be amazing. Also I often read the lore and books of warhammer fantasy so the chance of more stuff being made for this world is pretty hype
"We have piles of ancient skeletons" .... glad to see GW is keeping to the lore :)
Ditched Fantasy because the models weren't selling anymore, decides to literally release the same old models at a price that's trippled since last on sale I'm sure this is going to go great
feels like this channel is just about your feelings rather than about the subject
I gotta say something with regard to the sprues. For context, I used to work for a plastic injection moulding company. It's most likely that sprues A and B are from the same tool, but the Pegasus is most likely from a different tool. And with the older models from the Tomb Kings, why go through the process of replacing an expensive tool when you have a load of old tools available for models that historically have done quite well. It makes a tremendous amount of sense to me to reuse the old tools.
I was considering coming back to the hobby (i actually used to play undead as a young lad) but i'm astonished that they are charging the prices they are for models from 1993! I think i might just go for OPR instead with some printed miniatures instead.
I know that it's just because I'm an oldhead grognard but the old "bad looking" skeletons look that way on purpose, they're evoking Ray Harryhausen's old claymation movies, the heads are designed to look almost identical. I know it's not everybody's cup of tea but I'm beyond excited to have the opportunity to purchase these models. Well... purchase more of these models without the Ebay markup.
I mean, I really, really, want it to succeed. I'll be coming in later once the grand cathay release if things go well.
7 factions of the original warhammer battle aren't going to have new figures or have support from GW (lizard men, skaven, dark elves, etc...), I don't think they gave us a new faction for a game they call a "horus heresy like'
@shisakriigel6041 I'm pretty sure they confirmed both kislev and grand cathay as future armies, but its GW so who knows. I'll be waiting to see how things are in a few months to a year.
they said kislev was being "worked on" 5 years ago.
And we got 3 plastic kits as part of the *system launch*. Ain't looking good
@@whiteshark0165 Mid 2020 isn't "5 years ago". (Let alone a single article in early 2022 in case people are wondering about Cathay.) Those articles were primarily cross-promotion with Total War: Warhammer III, and Kislev will most certainly arrive not long after the 9 official core factions got their rereleases. It's marked on the map, it gets lore in the core book (Cathay, too), and the TOW narrative is gearing up for the Great War against Chaos, which was fought in Kislev. And unless the game fails spectacularly, we're bound to get proper support for the 7 legacy factions a bit after that, followed by Cathay, and hopefully others (Ind, Khuresh, Nippon, Hobgoblin Khanates, Vampire Coasts, Southlands, Araby, Estalia, Tilea, ...) after that. It's only natural for GW to start this with armies that already have (largely) plastic model ranges, and they never make concrete promises more than a year in advance (and usually much less than that).
@@ratmilk123With all the missing armies I don't have any hope and it's dead to me. For now.
Fantasy was not a failure, me and my neighbors all got into it and spent all our money on building our armies. It may seem less accessible than other games due to the sheer size of the armies, but it was very satisfying non the less. I think Games Workshop was surprised with the success of Lord of the Rings and then decided to differentiate their own Fantasy game and try to make it more like 40K and that's how we ended up with Age of Sigmar. They pulled all support for Warhammer Fantasy and left us fans out in the cold. Unfortunately I never got into Sigmar - it was just not MY Warhammer anymore. So I stopped playing altogether.
it was very muchly a failure. It was haemorrhaging money for GW, that is categorically a failure.
...So it was a failure then?
It was most definitely a failure
@@whiteshark0165 I can only speak from my perspective. Most of my friends were in a craze and were collecting Warhammer Fantasy. I was getting every single White Dwarf, and Warhammer Fantasy was always well represented in each issue. But I also lapsed out of the hobby around fall of 2006 when the latest edition of the game with its new set and miniatures was announced. And then when I wanted to get back into it, I was greeted with Age of Sigmar, which didn't click with me.
@@Dosnmeda local communities may have been healthy but the game wasn't. The ENTIRE game was being outsold by tactical marines. Just ONE space marine box was outselling warhammer fantasy battles.
Wait so, these 255 US dollar boxes come with miniatures over 30 years old? it's a fucking armed robbery at this point SMH...
Seems uncharitably harsh on the fanbase as a whole, Dave.
GW could simply have made a poor decision. They're not perfect, and they have made more than their fair share of blunders.
That aside your free handed unicorn looks badass.
Best of luck Liam. Your costume looks awesome. You're the best questie.
Yes Dave, that unicorn. Err Merr Gerd!
Good chat, pals! I've hauled some minis out of deep storage, if nothing else this release is a reminder to paint a classic model once in a while :-)
It's lovely having some space to paint on a model
Only the Skeleton horses are from 1993. most of the other models are from 2003 when tomb kings was released for 6th editon.
The skeletons are from 1993, the horses are from 1987. They just reprinted them in 2003 and added the tomb king bits on a separate sprue. The actual sculpts of the core bones are OLLDDD
In defense of the Steelhelms, you definitely don’t need as many of them as you would need Brettonian Peasants
Did feel like there is one very obvious attraction to the Old World that Dave didn't hit on? Maybe because it isn't his thing, but big blocks of ranked up infanty just.. don't exist in the rest of GW's ranges. Mobs are a very different thing, both have good points but Hoo Boy have I missed that epic clash
I find it sad the the 2 armies they decided to bring to the front of old world were the two that I remember complained about the most for having outdated models even back then. If I remember correctly Brettonia didn't even have an updated book for the last 2 editions. So I think alot of people (such as my Breton brother) were hoping they'd be getting complete new sculpts in the style of the old world but nope. As for mesbg I think it will heavily depend on how the riders of rohirim movie does, if it goes the way of rings of power then I think it will be killed off
New scultps are hugely expensive. This isn't a mainline release. This is more on the level of Bloodbowl. It's a "specalist game".
Releasing with the two worst selling armies is a smart idea. It drives sales for them, and helps indicate how well the more popular armies are likely to do later on.
As an original 2nd Edition player I feel this release is aimed at someone like me to play on nostalgia. Sadly I already own all these Tomb Kings models that I wanted. It's cool to give people the opportunity to buy them off the shelf, but personally I would have much rather have new models for both armies. That would have got me really into it.
And the amount they are charging for the box sets is quite frankly appalling - $578 NZD.
part of the issues with Fantasy Battle at its end was the barrier to entry was how many figures you needed to buy, and assemble, before you could play with your friends. This also kept folks from starting second or third armies for the game for the same reason. The system had also bloated out pretty hard and needed a redo into AoS as a new system. Old world is likely to take over as the 4th major game along side 40k, 30k and AoS. It is also a distinctly different feel in play compared to AoS.
Well, considering how I can’t even preorder a rule book because it already sold out, and video jockeys have been receiving everything for free, it seems that the launch is going according to GW’s plan. If it’s not your “cuppa”, I will gladly pay for shipping if you care to ship the Tomb Kings (or Bretonnia) box with rulebook to me in New York. Sincerely. Have a great day!
At first, when you started saying "this isn't my thing" I thought you meant the triangular red measuring sticks and my immediate thought was "clearly this man hasn't tried sword-fighting with them".
i really wanted an updated range, it's ok saying "if you wanted WHF you should have bought it before they killed it" but the fact is it was on it's last legs even when as a kid who couldn't afford the hobby I did used to dream about getting my vampire count army with zombie dragons and corpse carts, but you look at the old zombies, they looked goofy as fuck, even if i could afford it I would have spent the money on lord of the rings or 40k
the love from total war:warhammer and vermintide prove the setting is loved enough for it to come back, and coming back but without anything that made the jump ahead into the new setting
the same thing with empire troops, as you say in the video, the new models have the genestealer cults problem where each chaff infantryman has the same detail as character models from other factions so they aren't fun to paint if you take joy in doing it well
I don't think it would have been so bad if they had kept updating their old range and spun off into AoS, using at least some new models for both the old game and the streamlined new game
after playing TW:W2 I wanted nothing more than a clan Skryre army but all of the skaven range that skryre is known for has been sold out every time I have looked, just rechecked, doom wheels, doom flayers, warp lightning cannons and worlock engineers are out of stock, leaving older infantry models that definitely show their age and have nothing to do with the mad scientist vibe I want to go with, most of the available models are old world models
I feel like there's a bit missing from the discourse in that attention drives sales and sales drive attention, people want to update their armies with models that look from this decade but because nobody was buying sculpts from 1993 GW canned the old world where they could have gone "we're revamping the range, cutting out what we think is superfluous and adding cool shit" but instead of doing that they released 200 space marine sergeants
so reason that OG WFB died is the same reason why certain armies in 40k and AOS just do not sell because GW are a huge money making machine and wont invest in anything they dont think they will make a huge fortune from. instead they half invest (AOS still selling WFB sculpts for skaven and similar armies that were released in the 90's) People wanted a full range refresh of WFB before it died but GW had not invested any time or effort into it for 3-4 editions.
The release of Warhammer: The Old World gives me mixed feelings. Overall, I really like it and I'm happy they brought back the old factions. I just got into Warhammer Fantasy back in the tail end of 8th edition and bought a ton of Tomb Kings and my mother, who got me into TTRPGs and MTG and Warhammer, bought a bunch of wood elves. It was great and we were putting together and painting models until suddenly the End Times well...ended and we got Age of Sigmar, and both our armies got squatted. They wound up in storage and there were some casualties. Now these armies have rules and a game again. Hurray! But, the new stuff is just the old stuff with a couple of new units thrown in. It's not bad, and adjusted for the new content and inflation the new boxes come out pretty good. They are largely the old boxes with the army rules and core rules thrown in with dice, templates, and a new character tossed in. I understand the frustration at the prices for models older than a good chunk of the people playing but did anyone actually expect anything else? I mean Eldar players still pay new GW prices for models that are of a similar age, so do orc players. Until fairly recently, if you played chaos in AoS, you were still buying the same old Chaos Warrior box just with round bases thrown in. I predict, if the game does well enough, the metal models that came back will get new sculpts and maybe the armies will get refreshes. Likely at the rate that Horus Heresy gets new stuff, at least once all of the announced armies get their releases, so buckle up for that I guess. If it does really well they might give it a new edition and bring back more armies.
If you don't want to pay 2024 GW prices for 1990s GW models then 3d print them, forget about official events, buy the rules maybe, and play with friends at your local game store. I'll be doing that to replace my broken stuff, and there is really cool looking stuff out there if you know where to look. Even if you don't want to print them yourself, there are plenty of sellers who will print them for you and it will still be cheaper, and even if it isn't, it probably looks better.
Lots of love and luck to Liam! Congrats on the new job! - That said, yeah, I think I'm in the "disappointed" camp for this one. I saw all the new cool models in that Cities of Sigmar box and got my hopes up, and to see their two launch boxes including THIRTY year old models, chock full of mold lines, is just... not at all what I'd want to spend my money on.
Sad that its full of old models and not new, the new pegasus looks so much better than the old horses and makes it looks cheap
The templates were originally orange and came in both 40k and fantasy main boxed sets, there was also the smoky white version you could get on its own (and were about 1mm smaller lol), one of the sets even had a dark red set, I can't remember which set though. The green ones didn't appear until the 40k Apocalypse rules came out, they were also a different design and thicker than the older ones.
Personally have the opposite reaction to the exluded factions. I dont, and have never, played age of sigmar but loved fantasy battles and am really excited for old world. If the reason that we dont see factions in old world is because they have been stolen to put into AoS then that isnt a point of celebration for me, its a real shame. I hope we see them expand the roster of factions down the line, especially for some of the missing core races like skaven and lizardmen because I think the game needs those to really capture the oldhammer vibe.
As a relatively new 40K fan with no knowledge of the Old World or Fantasy I’m glad you gave it all an objective look and not just hype
GW never released sales numbers for WFB separately. Saying that it was killed because of low sales is still speculation. The naming conventions in AoS on the other hand point towards wanting to trademark everything possible in the setting.
There is zero reason for a company to destroy a setting if it was selling well, regardless of wanting to trademark everything. Its literally the only reason possible for a corporation.
@@stephenjenkins7971 Unless 1) you expect to sunset one setting and get people to buy in your new shiny and trademarked system. You could make that easier by saying that you can use most of your old models and that there is no need to rebase (which was explicitly stated in the rules) and of course 2) if continuing your setting will lead what you see as your IP to become indefensible with any 3rd party able to market and advertise their models for your setting (see Chapterhouse trial).
for me TOW's appeal is a rank & file battle game, where you can play armies that reasonably sell the fantasy of an army in battles that feel like battles, but where the game still can be played out in a couple hours. By comparison large model count games of AoS, 40k, or MESBG get bogged down in measuring and moving hundreds of individual models that in TOW would measure & move as a half dozen block units.
As for old models, if you're playing at GW stores or events that might be a problem, but if you're playing at home, private clubs, or independent game stores there are tons of alternatives, especially if you have access to a resin 3d printer.
Of course it is Dead on Arrival, it was obvious from the start and the more time passes the more obvious that fact becomes.
The revived the game because they realized it gained a lot of popularity thanks to videogames, namely Vermintide and Total War Warhammer.
But they waited way, WAY too long to the point that both of these games have now lost most if not all of their relevance (in the case of TWW the game exploded in a spectacular fashion due to the impressive incompetence of Creative Assembly, the game developers).
Then they announced they would pick an older timeline nobody ever asked for and even less people are interested in, ESPECIALLY not the videogame players from Total War, a game that heavily (too heavily) focus on the special characters of the "current time line".
Then they announced they wouldn't bother updating the models and would instead do what they always do, sell 30 years old mainline troops (at an extremely inflated price) while forcing in new units nobody asked for.
It's especially egregious when you look at stuff like the Tomb Kings skeletons which are the poster boys for "90's era manufacturing limitations". They look just straight out bad and cartoony by today's standards.
Then they announced they wouldn't support a good chunk of the factions (including the Skavens which are at the center of the Vermintide videogam).
Then they grossly underproduced the minies and stuck to the old and intentionally expensive book system for the rules.
This game is made for nobody.
Not for the new players that come from the videogames, not for the people looking for good miniature, not for the people looking for a easy way to get into (if you can't buy the mini, you can't get into the game), and not for the lore nerds (ie the majority of GW "audience") that honestly don't give a rat's ass about that era.
Its a shame really, all they had to do is pick up the Storm of Chaos timeline, and continue the story from there, make new and updated models for the armies they'll roll out bit by bit (the character design is already done by CA for TWW, all they had to do was to make the minies) and make sure they produce enough stuff for the game to spread around quickly.
Edit: Oh yeah, and I forgot to mention the fact that the new models are (mostly) in Forge World Resin (with the price that goes with it).
Yeah. This game is beyond DoA.
My biggest thing is feeling like I’m being taken for a ride. The Old World is back! Sort of. New models! Maybe one? Whole army in a box! For how much? There’s two many head scratchers here and it feels really “scammy” to me. I could be wrong and everything works out but I’m not taking that risk now for sure. Even if I like both factions they released and have been fantasy-curious for a while.
This is almost exactly where I am at
If GW just sold the product instead of giving it away to anyone with a UA-cam channel, maybe the game would have a chance.
My big nostalgic question from the box: Do the whip-it-sticks (as we called them in my high school group, the range-rulers is what we are talking about) still measure about 1/4" short?
Yes
Perfection.
Equally, so long as both player are using them, it's not really an issue. @@cthuludreams1
Would it not make more sense for the two of you to swap places on the painting table, so the "active" hands aren't next to each other?
YES! Us lefties always sit on the left.
I was interested, then they announced that both my armies lizardmen and vampire counts will not be supported , so feck em, totally the wrong way to make a first impression for the game . They have really really phoned it in and it shows.
The biggest thing I see is, is gw has realised what killed fantasy it was you were forced to have a ridiculous amount of models due to 8th being hordes of models. So they release a game which you can play at small points if you don't want to have a heap of models and if your a fantasy player that loves hordes etc go ahead. It addresses fantasy issues that people have it adjusts some of the bad rules and makes them streamlined for better fun games
The thing that just rubs me the wrong way is how GW didn’t even bother to release a completely revamped army box for the Tomb Kings. Brettonia got WAY more love and the Tomb Kings only got TWO new models which is just a disgrace. We’ve been waiting for this since 2019 and it’s just the older models? What happened to all of the model updates we were promised.
I already play AoS, Necromunda, and Grim Dark Future. Old world would really have to knock my socks off in order to add it into the suite of games I play and collect. Rank and flank doesn't appeal very much either so not likely that I'll be playing it personally. But I am happy people who want to play it have it and I hope it takes off.
With them announcing half the ranges won't even be getting new models , I definitely think it's gonna die a quick death
They're being lazy with it :(
@@simonwilliamnoelmurray9179yeah, that and horrific planning, trying to release both the old world and legion's imperialis while also keeping up regular release for 40k,30k , sigmar, necromunda. Allll while not actually increasing their production rates or back end factories
I reckon we'll get a new centrepiece and unit for each army. New Bretonian foot knights are bad ass as is the Pegasus lord .
@@huwtindall7096 they just announced quite a few armies are legacy armies and won't be getting new rules or models 🙁
@@trimeerious4349 true but I think all those armies bar Skaven and Dark Elves have sweet AoS models like the Lizardmen? Can just put them on square bases.
Look, I really liked the look of of Fantasy when I was an 8 year old. But what I didn't like as an 8 year old was the price. I could not afford 40K and Fantasy. And since all my friends did 40k, I went for 40k. I stopped the hobby for a while when I was about 14 but got back into it when I was 20. By which time Fantasy had disappeared. I had no idea when I walked into a Games Workshop for the first time in 6 years, and the sight of Age of Sigmar everywhere was strange. I didn't know what to think at the time. But my new gaming friends wanted to do MESBG so I did that anyway. Later doing 40K again and finally buying some AOS (not that I ever liked it as much as old fantasy.) So when I heard fantasy was coming back, thats great. However, I don't know if I can afford it again. In the past 3 years, I've forked out for 40K Indomitus, AOS Dominion, Kill Team Octarius, HH Age of Darkness, Cursed City, MESBG Battle of Osgiliath, War cry Crypt of Blood, a new Leagues of Votaan army, a ton of little bits for almost all of these systems, and most recently, Legions Imperialis (which hasn't even arrived yet because I pre ordered it and GW didn't make enough so i'm waiting for a damned restocking before I get my copy.) After all of this, last thing I need is another new game system, only a month or so after the last big purchase, which has left me broke. It's too much. And this is just one of my problems with Old World.
Why is it that they can't restock the last big game and yet they are using all these resources to produce a new big game. Is Legions Imperialis going to fail? Because as far as I see it, the hype was over as quickly as it started in favour of the next new thing, and when people are still waiting for their copies, then how much excitement can their really be for a game which had 3 seconds of fame. And this is not to mention the fact that like half of the MESBG range is either out of stock or not available at all. 40K has many items out of stock. Kill Team does too. Lots of the current games are struggling to produce enough stock. So why the hell are they making another game? It all too much too soon.
And then my next problem is cost. These kits are old. Things cost a lot less then. But no, these kits which by todays standards cost next to nothing at the time, now are being sold at a premium 2024 price. No better example than the Battle for Macragge box that went back on sale last month. A box which originally released at £40, which according to inflation should now cost £69, but GW was charging £90. It's disgusting. And Old World is going to be no different. Why should I pay £36 for 3 grail nights from at least 6th edition (2000/ 24 years old) or £52 for 3 Ushabti, also from at least 6th Edition. These models were not worth this much then, they certainly aren't worth it now.
Speaking of worth, these models were ditched by GW in 2015. When GW saw no value in the game as a whole. Some of the armies stayed for AOS such as Skaven and Lizardmen. But Tomb Kings and Bretonnia didn't stick around. I guess they were models that sold poorly even for Warhammer fantasy standards. These models were deemed unfit for sale and so GW got rid of it all. So what changed? Why is it that GWs poor selling game is back? It seems like a giant risk to me. Bringing back to life something which had little value left to give. And this brings me to my final issue.
If it didn't sell in 2015 when people only had Fantasy, 40K and MESBG, why would it be a seller now when people have 40K, HH, KT, AOS, Warcry, MESBG, Legions Imperialis, and many more. It breaks up the fan bases. Straight away, people like me will be thinking, I don't want to start a new game so they will avoid it from the beginning. Likely scenario for it will be people buy the models but sice AOS has the newer, better models, with better support and huge armies already, they will still be playing AOS instead. And then worst case scenario, people buy it and play it. But then AOS which from what I hear is already struggling, will lose interest as people flock to the new old worlds game. Either way, I see many fantasy players torn between Fantasy and AOS, or their being a clear winner and one of the having to be cancelled again. Seems silly to me to have another game when GW already has an ungodly amount of games people have to pick between.
So as much as this announcement originally had me intrigued, I now believe it to be a great financial gamble which won't pay off, which shows a much more exploitative side of GW and which has lost me a lot of respect for the company. I will not pay a premium for old shit. I just will not. And I will be super pissed off if them branching out again leads to more stock issues in the future.
This channel introduced me to Warhammer and I just got my first kit. Despite this not being a tutorial based channel these videos have really helped with the painting and my first models actually look good! Which was a surprise to be sure but a welcome one. Thanks y’all
I'm hoping the slightly larger base sizes will avoid weapon tangling in the infantry ranks 😅
Nice work team.
Its not the model, it's the paint job that makes it.
The old stuff was a bit chunky compared to those produced today, but with a good paint job can still look outstanding.
I have the original Fellowship of the Ring (including Bill the pony) by Citadel from the same era, purchased in 1991 in London.
They are great.
Happy Modelling
Best thing gw did for mesbg was to leave it alone. Every event I’ve attended over the past 15 years for it has been great, where everyone had a great time, which is in contrast to their other games, where the communities often follow the latest meta and become toxic. On the old world, I have continued to play 8th and regularly attend sold old independent events for it where the player base is almost as good as the middle earth one as it’s people that just want to have fun and embrace the narrative. Have to say this is the first time I’ve been disappointed by one of your videos, usually they are excellent, but it was clear that Dave probably wasn’t the best suited to do the review especially if Jen and Murray were more interested in/ hyped by the release.
I was under the impression they were going to be refreshing the range, but this seems like the most strategic milking of old molds they've ever attempted.
Bet a hunner quid the reason it's brets and TKs is because its all the old shit that never sold when they moved to AOS that was sitting in a storage locker somewhere
I would almost agree but they have no storage space, hence poor release and stock issues. More likely those molds were in better shape, less used, and was easier to start injecting with.
As someone who wasn't around to get into Warhammer Fantasy before it was axed but has gotten really into the setting with its recent resurgence, it's really disappointing to see them repackage and sell 30 year old models without much updates to them at all. And knowing GW, they're gonna be selling them at luxury prices as always. I was honestly really excited to see Bretonians and other old factions come back after being passed up for Age of Sigmar and I figured this would be an amazing opportunity to update the models with some fresh new details (though Dave makes a good point about over detailing basic models). I know there's a classic feel and look to them and that may appeal to many fans of Fantasy, but I feel like there's no real intention to support and update these models much in the future like I thought which is a real let down. Fantasy had some really great lore and story that just didn't carry over at all into Age of Sigmar, taking on a completely different vibe. It would've been cool to have fresh new models that got back to that more classic and grounded aesthetic that the Old World should have.
The Pegasus mount may not have a letter on the sprue if they were made completely separate to the riders. It would allow GW to print mounts on their own for new riders in the future.
why did i get the sudden urge to play vermintide 2 or total war warhammer... I really hope old world survives, this dark fantasy universe has a special place in my heart. RIP warhammer online: age of reckoning you will be forever missed 😢
Return of Reckoning - give that a search. ;)
Vermintide is an End Times adventure, ironic isn't it?
And this “new old world” is infinitely far from the concept of Grimdark. Good and Evil sides? Female knights..
IMO GW is testing the waters. Thing is - there was a lot of hype around Old World when they announced it. It was just after the Total War Warhammer 3 release fiasco when GW backed down on some of the promises (Kislev, Cathay) and definitely took a safer approach. They didn't wanted to scrap the project because there was still a lot of hype around it but they weren't sure if the product will sell. That's why we are seeing old sculpts next to the new ones.
I think if the game actually sales well and churns thru its 1st edition with a lot of happy customers - we might as well see much more minis in future editions (and probably armies coming back too!) I wouldn't be surprised if they even started releasing new (optional) sculpts for existing units. But as I said before - it all depends on the sales.
If people support it they will do more! But I think a bit more effort on launch would have gone a long way. For example, a single new skeleton sprue for tomb kings would have meant like 50% of the volume of the entire army would be done. One sprue.
Words of truth! And lets all be honest - skeletons ain't really that complicated and can be easily made very modular. I'm a 3d sculptor running a pretty small but successful business and I'm pretty sure I can make decent modular skeleton set in two weeks.@@TabletopTime
What do you do with "Dad's Army" of old? New box, new characters, for new kids, who can also use "Dad's Old Army" too. Bridges the generation gap, so those old painted up armies can be dusted off and played again.
Old World was about Big armies. Old ready to go painted armies can join the fresh new stuff, to get Giant armies. Or just speed paint up the new stuff. Bridges the generations, without reinventing the wheel.
These don't have to be huge sellers, but its sound they are still given some respect and being played.
I don’t understand for the life of me why they glue the map to the stupid cardboard packing sleeve
Technically from a lore perspective, it makes sense to not have any of the legacy factions because they either weren't really around yet (vampire counts) were not really a united force (skaven) or come from a completely different continent (Dark Elves, Lizardmen) but then, Tomb Kings and High Elves also technically could fall under these categories, so it is a little odd.
Vampire counts have come and gone by this point. This is actually less than a century after Mannfred's defeat. This is the 30 year on ramp to the Great Chaos Invasion, elves start working with humans, Settra awakening and trying to expand the empire again, before getting smashed by dwarfs and Bretonni
I don’t really know who this product is intended for as the old players still have their old models and the new players won’t want old ugly sculpts and everyone else either isn’t interested or they have an old army that is no longer supported like the fan favourite skaven (I kept mine on square bases for no reason…)
"Not supported" means no balance updates. How many of those did we get during the Fantasy run?
It'll be reet.
Plenty of people don't have all the minis they want, or fancy picking up that army they never got around to.
Thanks for the review, even if it pushes me off the fence. I was potentially interested when I first heard the hype. Hearing the price already had me leaning towards "pass", but now seeing they simply dug out so many of the old molds has me firmly landed in the "hard pass" category now.
from what I remember the reason the wings are in their own bag is they used to be metal so they're reusing an old mold that didn't have a spure
There are a few armies that are known to be coming, the really big one is that Kislev is coming back for it. That's one that they released a LOT of concept art for shortly after their initial announcement for Old World.
I've got a friend who is also hoping for more Wood Elves...she went all in on a combo Brettonian/Wood Elf army when the End Times was announced and was extremely angry about the end of Warhammer Fantasy.
I'm really hoping that their vampire counts rules includes the Vampire Coast sub faction, because my army had a detachment of them to back up the rest of my vamps. Rolling in with gun toting undead with cannons was hilarious to see the WTF look on a lot of people who hear Vampire Counts and then see that particular band of crazies as part of a force.
Warhammer fantasy didn't die, GW had abandoned the player base. 8th edition was barely recognizable to veteran players and a lot of people were fed up. GW doubled down on their error by destroying "the old world" and remarketing it as the pogo stick of the chess(fantasy) vs checkers(40k) argument.
I can't believe how much they charge for such old models. I don't mind old sculpts, I find them kind of endearing actually, but I'd expect a more reasonable price if half the box is older than me.
On an unrelated note, that shield freehand looks awesome!
I wanted to play Tomb Kings, then I remembered fiddling with glue and gw skeletons in a basement when I was 10 years old and immediately reconsidered!
for me, the pricing on the rank and file models are ridiculous. 12 battle pilgrims for £50! I've had multiple friends ask me if I have 3d files to print them. I hate the idea of it, but if we looking to play in the setting, then books + 3d models of the same if not better quality of sculpt is currently where we will be going.
I'm from the UK and the price is insanely high for some of the old crappy models and new ones too, completely put me off tbh, I was only marginally interested though. And I agree with you, I dislike the old models a lot, I like new cool sculpts TK looks goofy asf, and then again, you see the price and you're like...yh no thanks, I get people are nostalgic for them but I do think there is a blindness to how much of a rip off all this is.
Also in the UK and NGL, I was a little hyped for TOW. However, seeing a £155 box for Bretonnia that contains very little was off putting to say the least. It’s a shame, because I generally prefer the grittier style of Fantasy and dislike the whole AoS aesthetic.
I think GW are just going to take the money and run. I’m not sure if decent sales will force them to support TOW… but I could see them doing a half-assed job and then blaming “poor sales” again.
The very split opinion on this kinda speaks to why they killed it as a core game system in the first place. Obviously AoS caused an uproar, but since then, the overall reception was much more positive than even 40k after the community massively helped them through the growing pains.
People, myself included, might slag AOS off... but my gaming club has a very active AOS scene with a competitive Leage and Paths of Glory campaign group. At least a dozen players, probably more.
I was never a WHFB (I went with MESBG and 40K 5E) but I always liked the Old World setting far more than AOS.
How well do the new sculpts fit on the older base sizes?
Would like to have a bit more flexibility if I decide to bite.