What Is The Difference Between Branding & Marketing? What's more important?
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- Опубліковано 28 сер 2019
- What is branding? What is marketing? What is the difference between branding and marketing? What should come first? Which is more important, branding or marketing? Donald Miller, author of Building A Story Brand recently put it out there that marketing is the first and most important thing you do as a company. Fabian and Melinda react to Donald Miller.
Marketing is what you say it is. Branding is what they say it is.
“Here’s the simplest, most jargon-free, definition of marketing you’re ever likely to come across: If the circus is coming to town and you paint a sign saying “Circus Coming to the Showground Saturday,” that’s advertising. If you put the sign on the back of an elephant and walk it into town, that’s promotion. If the elephant walks through the mayor’s flower bed and the local newspaper writes a story about it, that’s publicity. And if you get the mayor to laugh about it, that’s public relations. If the town’s citizens go to the circus, you show them the many entertainment booths, explain how much fun they’ll have spending money at the booths, answer their questions and ultimately, they spend a lot at the circus, that’s sales. And if you planned the whole thing, that’s marketing.” from Allan Dib's 1 Page Marketing Plan.
Ep. 20 with Melinda Livsey and guest Fabian Geyrhalter.
1 Page Marketing Plan by Alan Dib. amzn.to/2ZuWUa4
Building A Story Brand by Donald Miller amzn.to/2zx8l6E
Video Referenced - • The Difference Between...
Get in touch with the guests:
Melinda - www.marksandmaker.com
Instagram - / melindalivsey
Fabian - www.finien.com
Instagram - / _finien_
#TheFutur #Branding #Marketing #MelindaLivsey #ChrisDo
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With branding, you're creating the story. With marketing, you're telling it.
And you can make up the story while you're telling it too. :)
This is what I was thinking watching the video, well said!
@@SartinsDownUnder!
@@natureisbeautifulll4190 !!! :)
Marketers would also say that they are creating the story.
Marketing is asking someone out on a date. Branding is the reason they say yes.
Pure Poetry!
Marketing is researching what your date likes, what kind of place she'd like to eat. Branding is matching your action to that.
Sheeeshhhh......this is good stuff!!!
that changed my perspective, wow
Thank you for your service.
I'm reading The 1-Page Marketing Plan by Allan Dib right now! Amazing book!!!! That analogy with the elephant made things really clear to me about marketing.
Here is the whole thing:
“Here’s the simplest, most jargon-free, definition of marketing you’re ever likely to come across: If the circus is coming to town and you paint a sign saying “Circus Coming to the Showground Saturday,” that’s advertising. If you put the sign on the back of an elephant and walk it into town, that’s promotion. If the elephant walks through the mayor’s flower bed and the local newspaper writes a story about it, that’s publicity. And if you get the mayor to laugh about it, that’s public relations. If the town’s citizens go to the circus, you show them the many entertainment booths, explain how much fun they’ll have spending money at the booths, answer their questions and ultimately, they spend a lot at the circus, that’s sales. And if you planned the whole thing, that’s marketing.”
thanks for correcting the story for me.
Awesome!
Perfect analogy!
Beautiful 💯
The impression left behind when the circus leaves is branding
Perfect.
Best definition so far
Fantastic description!
Fabian says "You have to create the word before you spread the gospel." He should have just dropped the mic and ended the video right there. Both are needed, but it's brand before marketing. I love this!
*virtual mic drop*
Really that should have been the end of the whole conversation bcoz that was bomb!! 🔥
Marty Neumeier put it so well in the Brand Flip : "Any effort to get customers is marketing. Any effort to get customers and keep them, is branding." (pg 30)
I am just Impressed by Chris's confidence. He didn't study marketing etc. But still able to direct the conversation and ask the crucial questions. Moreover, I'm impressed by how wisely he chooses his words when articulating his thoughts. Just amazing!
Thank you
As a brand strategist and graphic designer, positioning is imperative. That said, you cannot position successfully without a defined target audience. Moreover, you cannot define your audience without a why. Your why is what marries your beliefs with your audience’s beliefs. If nobody agrees with your belief system, you will either go out of business very quickly, or you will become a commodity in a sea of competitive price wars. Great conversation! P.s. You know Chris, Melinda. Clearly, he is comfortable with being himself around you. Don’t take it personally, he’s your hooman. 🙌😘
I'd say 'marketing and branding are like two wings on a bird, you need both to fly' :)
Wonderfully articulated, I love this 💕
That is interesting, there is a similar example in the Baha'i Faith of man and women representing the bird of humanity, it has to be equally developed so bird of humanity can fly.
@@wathah323 that's a fantastic way of putting it, I will look into that, very intriguing how it's applied to the human level
Faisal Hussain fucking love when commenters drop one liners that explain the meaning of the video in terms of the hopes of the video viewer 🙏🏻
AMEN!
Plot twist : The reference provoking video was a marketing strategy to get more people to talk about his business. That's the first thing that I thought and by the visceral reaction it got, taking the time to talk about it worked. That being said, I learned a lot from this conversation and tend to lean toward Chris's opinion of it just being a label. The important thing is what's being done for the client and the results they get from that work. Thank you! :)
Melinda had a good point at 30:28 'Unintentional branding'. No matter how ill-defined a company's identity is, EVERY company has a brand. The brand that stands out is the well defined one.
Branding = the simplification of a company's identity.
Marketing = Finding people whose values match with our own so we build trust & our identities align.
Strategy & marketing is more left brain. Branding is more right brain.
well said, sir...
I'm a brand dude working at a marketing agency, the nuance in this conversation really helped to better form a bunch of thoughts and ideas I've had floating around in my head. Thanks team.
I think these concepts are more organic and mixed than we think.
Branding without marketing builds audience but brings no customers.
Marketing without branding brings customers but builds no audience.
If I had to define each one it would go like this:
Marketing is about bringing new clients. (Short term relationship)
Branding is about making them like and stay. (Long term relationship)
Branding and Marketing are Yin and Yang. They are two pillars. Two separate pillars. They both can not properly function without each other, though.
Agreed. Marketing without Branding is just door to door sales without heart.
Agreed. You need both in place, as they each equally provide value for the company/organization.
I disagree with Yin and Yang characterization, implying two opposites [that complete each other]. Same for two separate pillars. I imagine them as much more overlapped than distinct. In the modern world, I agree with them characterized as not properly functioning without each other.
Bruce Colthart Cool. 👍🏽
My own definitions:
Branding: The "why" we do what we do. Identifying ourselves so we can better connect.
Marketing: Connecting us with clients. Showing how we answer the needs of the market.
Content Marketing: Gaining trust through giving free information to the market in hopes of long term success.
These are great definitions, thanks for sharing!
Great Definition, I believe that Branding makes it easier to Market
Branding is not the why, it’s the who you are and the how you want to be perceived now and in the future. So branding its about the strategic planning behind building and nurturing who you are and who you want to become in the eyes of the consumers and clients. The “why” would be your company mission. Of course the company’s mission should be present in your logo and identity as well. For instance the mission is “to improve lives of the ederly people who feel alone”. You logo would ideally pivot around this concept of fighting loneliness and bring hope to elder people.Both mission and branding must be perfectly aligned, same applies to advertising, digital, etc but that doesn’t mean branding is the why, and I believe this is important. Hope it makes sense.
Fendrix 69 so if I understand you, the mission is not a part of the brand strategy? Where does it reside instead?
Chris, this is how I understand branding; Please correct me if I'm wrong:
If the design of the experience is what marketing is, then I think that in order to know where branding fits into the elephant story, you need to ask who influenced the design of the experience? Designing an experience that will accurately portray the elephant according to the elephant's own standards, criteria, depiction of itself, personality, and its own narrative is the marketer's job; But deciding that this is the right experience for both the elephant and the target audience is the branding team's job. Additionally, deciding if this is even the right target audience for the experience is also the branding team's job. The branding team knows the elephant just as well as the elephant knows itself, therefore they know what is best for it. Branding always informs marketing.
Thanks!
"Branding uses marketing to spread the word.
Marketing uses branding to attract ideal customers." - Sebastián Lecona
Great video!
This is a subject I've put a ton of thought into.
Thanks for having this amazing conversation with such superstars!
Nice move melinda :D
Sebastian Lecona thank you ;)
Melinda is a superstar herself, let's not forget!
I really liked what Melinda said "there's still branding in that, it's just not intentional" Absolutely. Every business has a brand, whether they realize it or not. Whether they make an effort to influence it or not.
Every business has a brand, like an image, but not every business is a brand. Good topic to dive in more on our next Hitting The Mark Creative Group Circle call!
Talk about disruption... This channel is killing so many schools.
glad someone is paying attention.
@@thefutur So many small business entrepreneurs should pay attention to this video. It's mind-blowing how simple this is, and yet so profound. Thanks a lot!
Benefits are what makes people say yes.
Literally. The price of college makes it a scam...I wish companies would let go of the college degree requirement
Thank you for putting this out! I always feel like the dialogue you guys provide is exactly what I need to hear when I hear it; especially being an in-house marketer and running my own branding business outside.
Fabian has a really strong personality. Love the way he talks!
he's pretty special.
@@thefutur OK, now I am going to blush. Thank you.
Marketing is the whole thing... Branding is just a branch. I'm a marketer now but had to pass through and learn all of it. Started in 2003 as a graphic designer, then interaction designer, then brand strategist (mostly thanks to Chris Do), then eventually after 5+ years and lots of work, clients and issues, I understood the only way to move the needle, to impact the bottom line and really be helpful to my company and my clients was to get my hands (and thoughts) on all of it. Copy, social, SEO, SEM, ASO, PPC, Funnel design, email marketing, analytics, lead generation, sales, customer experience and business intelligence. Trust me when I say "this episode" is playing in my head over and over again everyday since years now 😅 Happy to find out I'm not crazy after all. Welcome to the marketing club everyone 👋
Love it! You guys were really influential in my journey to branding and I am coming from a marketing background. The past videos with Fabian and Melissa have opened my eyes to the “the world of branding”. Marketing and branding are better together. You can’t really separate them. Thx for all the work you guys have been doing and the tons of value you guys add to your audience’s lives. 🔥
This channel, is a guardian angel to future business openings or freelancers with not much experience like my self. Helps so much, especially when we have potencial but not the means to start! Thanks so much, for sharing some wise advices. Congratulations!
1. To stay in business you have to sell. So you want the customer to behave in your favor, hence buy from you.
2. For a customer to behave in this way, he should perceive you as his best choice from the market.
3. Such a perception can only be derived from positive experiences (great content, nice ad campaigns, events, shop design, better product, recommendation from a trusted friend, etc.).
4. Before starting creating experiences, you want to make sure they will be consistent and clearly associated with some signals that are unique to you. That's because you don't want to invest money in communication and in creating positive experiences, but not make it clear for people where they come from.
When someone hears your name, sees your logo, smells your perfume, you want him to recall those positive feelings you created for them. You want them to tell a certain story about you, in their minds.
That's what branding is all about. A consistent story and some signals to identify it. Advertising, Marketing, PR come in play to tell that story over and over again, until it equals with your logo and name. As much as Nike equals "athletic performance" or Ikea equals "affordable furniture for the many".
The truth is that almost everything has a brand, if we reduce brand to a perception or feeling we have about something. The secret is to understand that you can either let people think whatever they want about you or you can decide your story before hand and repeat it consistently until it becomes the truth. This operation of planning before hand is called branding.
Branding is all about signals. The signals can be verbal (name, voice, etc.), visual (logo, color, type, photography, etc. ) or sensory (touch, smell, sound).
But you cannot establish signals from thin air. So you gotta research. I think most of the confusion of branding with marketing comes from the initial research, because you'll be looking at the market, audience, competitors and you'll define what you do, what you really sell, what's the benefit and what's unique about it. Most of this data is traditionally associated with marketing. However, in branding, this initial research is meant to find insights that will clarify a core idea which intersects the company's and its audience's beliefs. You can call it a brand idea or a brand promise. It's that one line that answers: "What's this story about?" Example: :"What's Starbucks all about? It's about inspiring and nurturing the human spirit - one person, one cup and one neighborhood at a time."
To resume:
A. Branding establishes the story and the signals to be associated with. Because it's not efficient to invest money in propagating ideas that are not consistent or are not clearly attached to some signals.
B. Advertising creates awareness. You tell the world you exist. "Hey, humans here I am and I have something to say."
C. Marketing is vital to provide targeted information for people interested in you and drive sells. "Ok, company, you got something to say. Let me hear more about it. Convince me you're the right choice."
Of course, there is more about every concept. But this reasoning helps me make the best sense of these concepts. I'll be glad to hear your perceptions and thoughts about them.
Cheers,
Ionut P.
I am a digital marketer who isn't a creative and have zero graphic design skills. I LOVE this channel.
I agree with what Chris said, but definitely can understand Donald Miller was saying. For most small entrepreneurs, getting to market and selling has so much resistance that trying to get over perfect branding and just getting started is a big hurdle. I think he was probably talking more to that problem.
Can you sell stuff with crappy creative and poor branding? Yes
The truth is though, that when I work with clients who have excellent creative and branding get better results and create their own destiny. So I love all you creatives who make awesome stuff and make it easy for the media buyers to show up and sell like crazy.
I found this a very interesting subject so I decided to write my bachelor thesis about it. Well to make it short... Start with establishing the role (not the definition) of both marketing and branding, you will understand why. The role of marketing is to deliver value at a profit. The role of branding is ultimately about differentiation from the competition. So let's imagine a world where we would have to buy our oxygen to be able to breathe = survive, and we are the ONLY company providing this offering. There is an absolute demand for our market offering, duh. Do we spend our company money on marketing or branding? Marketing of course; it will make our cash register sing as we focus on making it more profitable (with all means available). Now imagine facing intense competition from other companies delivering a product near identical in performance (functional) to our; Huston we got a problem. What do we do now Mr. Max? Well yes my young padawan, use the power of the branding force we must, to differentiate from our competition (in my best Yoda impression). Simply, we must compete on an emotional level rather than functional. Tadaaa, we spend our money on branding in order to secure a unique position in the mind of the prospect. So you ask what is more important? Well, that kinda up to the level of competition your facing right? Are you able to secure the lead (invest in marketing) or do they end up buying from the competition (invest in branding)
18:04 - What is the end goal / Branding is the tactical response to competition and an overcrowded market whilst marketing is the tactical response to optimizing value exchange
Very well put Max!
I agree with you on that
is it possible get hold of the thesis?
Hi Max, really interesting points! Would it be possible for me to get a hold of your thesis?
@@thanabos1008 check the link I posted. You might have to translate it 🙂
Holy shit. I was a Marketing major who found it so incredibly dull (not the marketing component but all the finance, accounting, and management classes) so I switched to advertising, where I got a great education in positioning, creative development, understanding the target demographic, the ethical responsibility of creating a desire for unnecessary products and after all of that, I ended up designing because that’s what I loved best. And after watching this video, I now realize just how narrow the space is of other people who have my insight and abilities. I always lamented not going to a traditional design school and now I realize just like the lawyer in Outliers how rare my combination of experience and insight truly is. This is a game changer. I’m about to go hard in the paint, elevate my strategy, and triple my rates. Thanks peeps.
I'm a marketing student, and I've started the graphic design for around 6 months
and I'm really interesting in branding, now I think that Chris is right in the point of the brander should have a good graphic design background but also it must have a marketing background
because all these things are connected
let's say that you want to rebrand, and you guys in the series of building a brand said that too "we're helping them to reach their clients" this exactly the goal of the marketing
but the problem of traditional marketing is it doesn't care about the and look of the brand, it's just focused on strategies so here comes the power of design to give the brand its real look and feel, using colors, fonts, images...
and I guess that the results of this conversation were also about incorporating these two things, actually, they didn't need that, because they already independent fields I think
I am now realizing that marrying both marketing and branding for a business is not so easy especially because I am new to the marketing side of things. Great conversation guys
A brand is a perception (reputation) of an organisation or individual. It is made up of a multitude of different elements(eg. Logo, typography, photography, tone of voice, customer service, staff, graphics, stationery, social media, wayfinding, presentations, marketing and many more) each element generates an experience. Those experiences generate feelings and emotional responses. Branding is about shaping (influencing) perceptions (eg. feelings, emotional responses) to the organisation or individual.
Marketing is a critical part of the brand eco-system, it helps build the relationships with the customers and in return helps to build loyalty and sell a product or service.
What are you going to write in your marketing campaigns? Which kind of images are you going to use? If you want to offer a discount it's going to be on which products?
These are marketing decision you can make only after you did some kind of branding. Maybe you (owner of the business) didn't call an expert, maybe you just thought about it by yourself and had no idea how to call that process of choosing the style, and words and images but that's... branding!
So I agree with Melinda: before deciding marketing channels, copy, pictures etc. somebody DID branding no matter if he/she was aware of it or not, no matter if he/she did a good job or not.
I'd say the right question is not "what's more important" but "what comes first". First branding then marketing.
Donald Miller is RIGHT. He is speaking in tongue and cheek, basically putting the "branding" creatives in check. Branding isn't a creative exercise! Brand is automatically established, it may not be well or perfectly branded but it doesn't mean it's couldn't be done.
his book is called Story Brand.
Fabian Geyrhalter is 100% spot on.
Fabian's energy is great, feels like a ping pong match between the three of you lol.
The three of them? Only the guys were discussing marketing.
Thank you!
I think I come to realise that: Brand is the "Identity" of the company (I agree it is about "Us"-what we do), Marketing is the way to communicate the identity to the Right customers continuously. To Me "The Futur" Brand is "Great insightful sharing" (what you really do). One of the marketing part is using UA-cam (letting people know about it)
This was a fascinating conversation! Thanks for sharing. I've often thought of branding as formulating, and ensuring the promise being made is the promise being delivered, and marketing as the communication engine behind the brand. This conversation is helping me see these disciplines in a different light. Thank you!
You could have the best brand concept, but it needs the right marketing to be seen and heard ... it’s so controversial. Like the whole 🐓 v 🥚 but I reckon they’re interconnected.
Great topic guys! I've always educated that Branding is not the same as Marketing. They do work hand in hand , but they have different focus and impact areas. I use the metaphor of a bicycle when describing the relationship between Marketing & Branding. Lets start with 'Marketing' - marketing is the wheel and the wheel has a variety of different spokes that make that wheel turn. Each spoke represents a tactical tool or aspect of ' Marketing'. This could be anything from social Media, SEO, Content, Emails, etc...). Strategy is the frame of the bicycle, Its the solid structure from which your marketing initiatives ( wheels) work and are steered from. each part of your bicycle ( Or Marketing department) needs to work together to move forward.
I like that! Why am I not surprised that you have a great analogy for that ; )
Donald Miller is a genius and his work has profoundly impacted my business and my life in general.
…hence his statement was so strange b/c I agree with you - his insights are usually great!
I love this whole chat ive come back to continue & im 27min in & the whole concept of marketing & branding intertwined just intrigues me. Now looking at what I do for my clients I never talk about actual "marketing" but I surely am working within it a little for sure, before we even get to the creation of visual assets, logos development & design , contextual stuff etc I like to dive deeper with them to look at their current customers & target audience , we discuss things like how do they want to guide their audience to be seen, we talk about the heart of their business why it exists & ways to communicate this story through content creation, language - their voice from how they speak on socials, to replying to emails to the words/descriptives on thank you product cards that get sent out with an order - Maybe I am diving into a very small area of marketing when I work with my clients, im not really sure as I just do what comes natural to my process. Thank you so much you always spark NEW & FRESH thoughts into my mind when I need it. I am NO ONE to say this but you guys have so much solid experience & knowledge its amazing I hope to one day be an expert. For now I continue to read, learn, watch, listen, take apart, build, refine & work on what I know adding new knowledge to make what I offer creatively even better & of more value. & its with thanks to you... You will never know how much this means to me. I look back to 3 or so yrs ago, sitting in my desk when I found a video of yours on youtube, it changed my life. no word of a lie. You have added so much to my future ;) x Loz (Australia) x
I love how Chris just reads someone and say what they're doing. It completely throws them off, haha. Love this video as always!
Chris' perspectives are so genuine, futuristic, and relatable. He is a pure genius. Hands down! 🙌
Thanks to Melissa for setting up this enriching exchange. And for Fabian for bringing his wealth of experience. I like what Chris said about the overlap between what the market wants, what the client (the service or product provider) wants to offer and what I as a consultant can offer the client in terms of my suite of products, services, tools and insights. And how labels can be misleading.
In the hands of inexperienced clients labels can become troublesome stickers that gum ideas into an immutable configuration. These coagulated ideas can shield the client from engaging with the factors and nuances impeding their growth. The client may have picked up terminology from a single conference, run by the latest guru in town. As consultant our role is then to carefully, through questions and listening, tease apart what is really happening in the client's world. Labels in this dialogue become a mine-field.
I appreciated the skill Chris illustrated in pushing back on Melinda about who asked first. How he accepted Fabian's joke about not fighting without losing focus. And how he used questions to draw out the concepts. I found this part to be a challenging and inspiring illustration of the mastery of listening.
Thank you very much.
I'm expanding my point of view from traditional 'Visual designer' to core truth of designer's role in the context of business.
I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to hear a talk between Donald Miller and Chris Do. Donald Miller is one of the most brilliant minds in marketing and designers need to be a part of that conversation.
Good shout Matt. @Chris, please make it happen...
It doesn’t matter if you purposely “do branding” or not: you’re doing it anyway. What people think and feel about you, what they say when you’re not in the room; that’s your brand.
I suspect there’s a language/definition issue here as they’re completely interconnected. What DM seems to be talking about is simply the old pull vs push marketing argument. He falls on the push side (short term), whereas branding is part of the pull side (long term).
The underlying message from him is common sense though: Don’t ignore your short term needs; make sure you’re getting enough money to live before spending it; and spend it where it needs to be spent.
These conversations are very informative and interesting. I am glad we get to live in this world where we have free access to info...
Very useful information gave by great people! In my opinion, Melinda was completely right and I agree with her, EVERY business or organization is doing branding, even if it is unintentional, the definition of branding I like the most is: A BRAND IS A PERSON'S GUT FEELING ABOUT A PRODUCT, SERVICE, OR ORGANIZATION (which of course I learned from you guys), so, it is inevitable that somebody has an opinion about a business, big or small. Our job as branding/marketing strategists is to define a clear direction on how we want customers (or better said, audience) to feel about that product or company, and that doesn't necessary is related to visual elements or sales. In conclusion, I think every company or organization should think about their brand first (they unintentionally do, when selecting a name and setting their objectives, values, mission, etc), create a product or service that people really need, and have a clear and meaningful message to say and transmit; branding and marketing SHOULDN'T be separated nowadays, as said by author of the book Brand Off/On, Andy Stalman: We need a new definition of the discipline, he calls it BRANDKETING
Thank you as always for the great content!
I'm starting something crazy over here! We'll hopefully, im not designer at all but loving the feels of this content! It's almost like mediating when I listen along! Thanks everybody who works on the channel!
Wow two of my all time favourite Futur guests on the same show!
Lots of food for thought, encouraging me to clarify what I think about both. Ive always seen matketing as one gigantic umbrella under which everything falls perhaps in phases: branding, design, copy, promotion, engagement and the strategy that integrates all of this to meet business goals.
Listening to Fabian's description and Chris' followup it could definitely be two overlapping circles.
Thank you!
Chris is just do down to earth. For him, the question never really came up, because he doesn’t really label anything.
But the people out there really do struggle with labeling, so he clarifies that the only thing that matters is what you do and how you communicate that,
which indeed actually is marketing/branding. Thank you again for all this. ❤️
Yeah, a lot of people living up the label as the academic degree
Only problem with not caring about the labels is these days everyone is obsessed with labelling, so as much as it makes it easier to deal with for people like Chris, the customers and people who pay the money need to know what they are paying for!
I am pretty sure I am late on this, but based on the description and story Chris mentioned, Designing all aspects of the circus is the marketing BUT people's understanding of the circus and its relevance to them is the branding through the same venues explained in the story.
Such a powerful and truly open conversation. Chris, I so appreciate the respect with which you invited honest dialogue and facilitated this conversation. All of this needed to be said and needs to be heard. Bravo.
Thank you
My belief is that Branding & Marketing are genuinely a connection that should always be intertwined. Our Why, Beliefs, Values, Our Tone & Voice....That is branding and lets add on the identity design that fits our why, belief, values tone and more importantly our Tribe / Community. Now when we talk about marketing and showing how to expand our reach, position ourselves in the market, handle the ad tactics through social, print etc all of these aspects should also take into account all of what makes up our brand. We need to be sure our values and beliefs are not being compromised in our tactical marketing. We should be leveraging our brand strategy and our marketing strategy so that who we are and how we can be most successful wins for the business. Reality is we should both be sitting on the same bench. More than likely we are empty without one or the other.
What I believe and what I teach is that Branding is what other people feel and think about you, and Marketing is what you say about yourself. Obviously it goes way more in depth than that. But this being said, you can't control your "brand" you can only influence it. Ways to influence your brand would be your logo, messaging, interior design etc. And your job as a "brand strategist" would be to figure out what your customers currently think about the company, and what you want them to feel and think about it, and begin to influence them in that direction.
Chris Do, hats off to you Man! You really opened my perception about marketing and branding. Also, you just burned tons of "branding" people who just design the creative side of the company. It is also about positioning, market research, and strategy.
Branding and Marketing are key in positioning, I don't think it falls in just one side because both should have that as a goal, for example with branding you develop those characteristics and the personality that will be in the user's mind, with marketing you put yourself out there so that they know you exist. Lots of takeaways from all your videos always, thanks a bunch!
I'VE BEEN STRUGGLING WITH THIS FOR WEEKS! I watch Donald Miller's videos and was struggling through that idea he put in. Love your answers: labels don't matter if you're seeking the client's best interest to grow.
This was AMAZING. Its not like I got some hot new tips on how Marketing or branding works, as im sure non of the people out here who know a little about marketing or branding have, but this conversation helped me to shape my opinion and kind of positioning myself inside of this "debate" and overall clear my thoughts, like Melinda has. This was a great eye-level conversation. And I appreciated a lot how Fabian articulated his thoughts and how chris tried to give clearity with the Circus analogy to make it less abstract... Pure gold💯
Thank you!
THIS IS SO DOPE. I'm just beaming in front of my screen while learning and taking note. The objectivity in describing both subjects is so profound. It went beyond the motions to really answer the question of why both parties are needed in every business.
This is interesting for me...My education (and career I suppose) is in Marketing. Positioning and Branding WAS a part of my education. Looking back on it, I want to say that while we didn't state it, Design was kind of like... A foundation of marketing? It's kind of hard to describe, but there's a huge overlap in the process. It's an interesting thought exercise, but I don't think there's much of a point in trying to own business concepts (outside of politics that is).
To me, Marketing might be like the "Why". I imagine it's the same for Designers. It's when Strategy comes into play that you bridge the two, and the "Why" of both Marketing and Design evolve and you derive the "How". That's why I'm now trying to learn both, because you can't separate the two, unless you get into distinct specializations like Digital Marketing or Identity Design.
I think branding and marketing are interconnected. There are times where branding takes the lead and drive marketing efforts, and there are times where marketing drives branding. Especially in data-driven marketing.
That is why such a task is out of a one man band resources, it requires a team/individuals to achieve good results. When I hear a designer is trying to provide total branding services, then I know it will be a half ass job.
Absolutely I start with positioning before I begin design of any kind, whether a logo, brand systems, or even a campaign. And my background is design.
Very nice conversation and thoughtful discussion. I agree that there is a lot of overlap and branding probably falls under the umbrella of marketing rather than being a separate discipline. Branding seems to be developing implementation strategies within the marketing plan for utilizing marketing tools more effectively.
Unfortunately, most people don't really know the actual definition of branding or marketing and there are no definitive definitions of both. As a result, there is no common language and everyone looks at them based on their own perspective and experience.
Also a big fan of Allan Dib!
I needed this so much. I really really love you guys!
Great video! "To a hammer, every problem is a nail." Each professional is likely to feel back on their specialty in the heat of the moment. I believe that this clears up a lot. Thanks for the awsome informative content!
To make things even more complicated than it is now, re: "1-page marketing plan", I would call the whole thing User Experience design.
I enjoyed every single word of this conversation. Keep those coming cause they provide a very intimate glimpse of your minds. That's why podcasts work. Coming back to the subject, branding without positioning isn't branding. Without clarifying who you're doing what you're doing for and why they should care, by providing context, any branding effort is simply futile.
Hence positioning is part of branding, when done right. Completely agree with you.
Thank you Melinda, Chris and Fabian for this discussion!
So many useful insights for client meetings, who might ask the same questions. Certainly, the size and age of the company will impact how they see and understand branding. Like Melinda said, I too have had experience with early stage start-ups that "will choose a random elephant just to move forward". Although, this can be frustrating, it's understandable due to the financial constraints of a new business. So, for this kind of client I'll use your suggested 30/70 method to balance brand stratgey with marketing. Thank you!
Glad you enjoyed it.
Branding is knowing what something stands for before you experience it. Marketing is The execution of the distribution of information that teaches what something stands for.
Exactly! You can't market something without knowing WHAT you are marketing! love this
Yep context and clarity matters. The company I work at positions themselves as a digital marketing agency with branding being a branch of marketing. Luckily we are small so when the two blend together the customer usually understands that both are important.
this kind of video keeps developing our normal ways of processing and thinking about things. sooo great.
This was a very intriguing conversation. As a marketer, I think branding is in the same echo space as marketing but majority of companies and institutions tend more to invite marketers in the room rather than brand strategist.
And that is just coming from the experience I’ve had with eastern and southern African businesses.
Chris, I think the set chart example would be: one circle "Graphic Design", another circle "Marketing", and here the "branding" would be the overlap between both circles. Branding and marketing do not overlap; but really branding is essentially marketing. And from our discipline, graphic design, the only thing that is incumbent is to respond graphically to marketing. Marketing commands over graphic design in branding, because all the work prior to composing a brand is marketing, market research, composition of the company, mission, vision, target, etc., and only later do we make graphic decisions that are fit what was analyzed.
Until recently, I couldn’t truly define what the job was that I did with Saint Cloud that created an identity or product context. As a small business owner wearing lots of hats, it is even more difficult to segment what is done in one role versus another, and how that is defined.
I now view the branding side as a major aspect in my business’s success so far. I didn’t do much in the way of marketing, but I went heavy on branding. Suffice to say, I’m happy that I did.
I really love this kind of discussions, it gets you to move, to think about it and ask questions, to wonder. Every time when I listen to this kind of conversation I want to jump into the video and be part of it. haha
Thank you so much for this kind of treasure. ^^
24:06 this analogy really got me thinking! great topic
I call myself a branding person and I do include positioning, competitive advantage, differentiation, etc.
me too. but not until a few years ago.
@@thefutur right. I'd say I've been including it for the last year and half or so.
I was probably helping clients with it before but now I have a name for it lol
This just blew my mind! but always love the way Chris take what you think is written in stone and ... boom! flip it upside-down! more of this please!
Thank you
Chris, love your way of explaining the circle with the analogy at 00:24
"You have to create the word before you spread the gospel." I like that.
Story Brand is all about positioning. The overlap is definitely seen in brand strategy.
this was a great conversation! I'm glad someone decided to have one about this particular video. As I received that newsletter email from Donald that contained the video and was truly fired up by it at the time. But I like this bigger picture look at the topic, which might also prove to be a wake-up call for designers that might say they are providing branding, but are only focusing on the logo/visual aspect of branding.
thanks Frank.
In the case of the circus analogy, the branding resides with the word "circus" - it is the reason why none of us need to ask the question "what is a circus", because that one word evokes more or less the same emotions/mental images in all of us. It's the same when we all nod in approval (or go up in arms in disdain, depending on your own preference) when someone says "because it's Apple/Nike/Tesla" - branding is ALL that has been done up to this point to shape that collective human reaction towards a certain word/brand, and that includes all the marketing efforts, all the advertisements, all the ways the brand has been responding to people on social media, all the company's reaction when they had to handle a PR crisis, and everything in between. And that is the reason why the bean-counters can't be arsed to "invest in branding" - because it is not ONE thing that can be quantified as a line item in a freakin quotation or invoice *shrugs*
Watching this in 2022 and it’s still so good.
Great discussion! I think that it is somewhat true that a super tight, cohesive branding (branding as a strategic approach to your reputation) in the early stages is not essential for success in business, since many quality business owners naturally create the reputation/brand of trustworthiness, quality, etc.. However, having company values clearly outlined helps tremendously when hiring or outsourcing new workers to represent your brand. It's is sort of a compass/decision filter.
Thank you for this thought provoking content. :)
The intertwined nature is really fascinating, especially for individual content creators (as opposed to businesses/corporations). For example, an author documenting his process of completing a book. Is this marketing or branding? Well, in a way, it's both. It's building awareness and excitement for the writer and their goals (branding focused) but also creating an awareness and excitement for a final product (marketing focused). Along this journey some videos would inherently lean more heavily in either direction, so an awareness of this concept and can definitely be helpful in framing the way you present information.
Unless I completely misunderstood the video, this was something I took away from it. Thanks for sharing your conversation.
Hats off to you Chris for applying a very high degree of EQ to your discussion. Don’t jump on what you think was said on DM’s vid and understand its context and components from all angles. Until now I understood brand to equate to differentiation period.
Can you do more videos with Fabian? He's so wonderful to listen to! Definitely buying the audio book version of his last publication 😊
Thank you ; )
yes. we can make more content w/ him.
I never knew a discussion could be so awkward yet fun, flat yet interesting, general yet personal, and skippable yet important - all at the same time!
My personal opinion - "one plan works for all" never works for all. This is a case by case decision. It all depends on how each product/service is able to appeal to an audience at some stage if not early, and then they go from there.
Again, about the video - so argh and so wow and so "wish I didn't watch this" and so "I do not regret watching."
No thanks, but thanks.
Thank you?
Wow, this is an outstanding discussion you guys have hosted here. I'm currently in my second year of business running an Advertising firm, solo, with one major client. I'm starting to notice a lack of success in our marketing and I feel it's because I don't fully understand his Brand.
A lot of what I found here was helpful in understanding what I've been doing, understanding what's missing, and what I could and should do to benefit his business and move the needle more. To answer your question tho, I think positioning is important but also what your positioning
What is the brand? Or what set's it apart from competitors!
What composes the brands' identity?
Why does the company continue to promote and manufacture the product?
Obviously, the business owner wants to be profitable but that is not a sufficient "why" that we can include in our brand identity and marketing.
Anyways, wanted to chime in and share my perspective as a little start-up and thank you guys for this excellent content!
What an interesting conversation, I am a visual artist who is attempting to move away from the gallery setting and I struggle with positioning , branding and marketing.This conversation is helping a lot. Thanks to the future team again.
This was a thought provoking conversation that inspired me to question my own definitions and assumptions.
Then it was a success.
Great Interview. Plenty gems given 💎
I told my clients I help them with Branding & Marketing. I don't just make merch, I make merch that aligns with their brand and help them market it to get the sales. This keeps us going forward and producing for that client because we get them the results.
You can break through your bottom line with marketing but you don't become a household name without branding...but that is enough for a lot of businesses out there
I saw the IG post about the circus and it was on point!!! but you guys nail how to educated all the people in this new cyber era!
Awesome as always! More than putting the topic to bed, I am left with so much to ponder upon. There is so much to learn from you guys! More power to you!
what topics are staying up a night?
@@thefutur This thing that how the definitions differ so much!! How do you communicate (to the org) what you do for the organisation without falling in this trap of subjective labels'?