Hey Neil, just finishing up my Hydraulics class in my engineering program. You were pretty much spot on with the technical explanation in the video! Another thing to keep in mind is that there are two aspects to "power" in hydraulic actuators: horsepower and torque. It may be possible to raise the flow rate of the hydraulics and make it go faster, but you are going to lose torque as you do. It doesn't do much good to have more flow if you are stalling anytime there is load.
Same with say motorcycle sprocket or automotive differentials. If you want top end (high flow) you sacrifice torque (pressure). And vice versa. This is were torque multipliers come into play. Cross manufacturing makes PTO pumps that use torque multiplier. See their 50T052. 3 times the flow with the same HP.
I'd LOVE to see a diverter of some kind, where more horses can be used to flow with a gear shift or electric valve switch. There are plenty of jobs where the tractor doesn't need to move much, or at all; auger, stump grinder, forester head, etc. Tractors are designed with old-school Ag mentality. It's all about towing implements, with a need for ground-engaging torque. Some jobs just need to be able to roll the tires, not pull.
The biggest part of the problem is conservation of power, which would be flow vs pressure, on a compact tractor that typically has less than 35 total HP to work with. You cannot make more power, so you have to trade flow for pressure and vice versa. At the end of the day, Kubota (Deer, Mahindra, etc) spec out a balance of flow and pressure that gets them the lift capacity and cycle times they are marketing for. Your typical skid steer has much more power to work with and thus easier to deliver the best of both worlds.
Hi Neil! Thanks for that clear and concise explanation on hydraulic flow! You are very good at explaining complex tractor stuff to common folk like me and it is much appreciated!
Well stated, however the same doesn't apply to Hydrostatic drive tractors. The John Deere 1 series for instance only has Mechanical Front Wheel Drive. Other than the PTO everything else is Hydraulic powered.
A fixed displacement gear pump with open center dcv's (directional flow valves) will not take the full horsepower they require while the valves are in neutral. In neutral the pump is full flow at low pressure. On variable displacement pressure compensated or load sensing system (the higher end type systems you brought up) the neutral position gives you high pressure low flow. The opposite of the open center setup. Both have some drain on horsepower when not in use. Neither is consuming all the power they can in that neutral state.
So is this why the R430/530/630 doin't have enough Hydrualic power to run brooms and stuff? Would it be worth it to run skid steer type hydraulic high pressures to make wheel loaders more versatile?
For instance the Kabota L 47 and M 62 I think need more hydraulic flow for small companies like mine. Who can't buy two different machines. I was looking to buy one machine to do both jobs but these machines do not have the flow output that I really needed.
That's a good example of a machine that would benefit. They would need a ton more power though, they already run an extra pump for the double backhoe circuit
Interesting video! Just saw a video on a hydraulic pump that is pto driven and goes between tractor and hay baling equipment! Is anyone making such solutions for loader equipment that needs high flow?
Because more flow is often accomplished by increased pressure and the hydraulic devices are rated at a given pressure. Exceed rated pressure and you break things.
Thanks Neil, you explained that really well. I didn't know this. I kinda knew this but had forgotten, i worked at a Compressor Station 20 years ago and we had 8 and 10 cylinder Cooper Bessemer engines with 2000 HP. Any kind of addon auxilary robs horse power. These Monster engines had hydraulic pumps that had 6" hydraulic lines to run the fin fan coolers that set outside the compressor building. Each engine has 5 compressors attached to them. So i realized that anything else added including hydraulic pumps can rob HP from the drive train. Thanks buddy.
Manufacturers could do more i would like to see a 50-65 hp tractor set up as tool carrier. You could run augers, snow blowers, brush cutters and all sorts of neat stuff. I think whoever steps up to the plate will do well with sales. Have closed center system as an option.
Sounds ok initially, however there is no need for continuous hydraulic hp while the tractor is moving . While stationary you may want power a log splitter, chipper, auger etc. Having a much larger hydraulic pump is possible and would only reduce the net tractor hp by a small amount when the pump is not loaded. The steering circuit is separate and only requires intermittent hp. The design is biased to cost and not on the needs of the user.
They are now making power packs and lower prices.. there is one power pack I think it’s made by land shark supposedly they sell for under 2k and can be used on a sub compact tractor.. total weight of the power pack is about 400lbs so it can act as a good ballast as well. I would like to see these tractors being sold as an option for PTO HP vs hydraulic flow.. as thats typically the trade off as Neil explains in this video.. maybe have an option to lower your PTO HP to gain a few GPM on your pump that would be great.. as more people these days wanna run front hydraulic attachments over rear PTO attachments
What you say makes sense. The only part I can't get my head around is if my 25hp tractor can push a 60" snow blower running off the PTO, why can't it do the same thing hydraulically? Likely because the benefit of more flow is only going to help in specific cases and hurt tractor performance in many other uses. Perhaps the economical solution for smaller tractors would be a clutched second pump in the hydraulic system that the user can engage when applicable. Surely that could be an affordable option that could be added to at least the larger compact tractors for space reasons. The cynic in me says the manufactures prefer to sell the mid PTO, forward drive kit, and front mount kit that are all quite tractor model specific to allow a front snow blower instead of a couple hoses to connect a skid steer option on the loader arms.
@@MessicksEquip Absolutely there are losses, but I don't think into the go/no go territory. Your video of HST vs Geared had 1120 vs 1500 respectively. From the perspective of the geared tractor that is a 25% loss and that was with the geared tractor having a ratio producing 1 mile/hour less speed so really it is less than 25% loss. A 33hp tractor on the same frame with 25% loss is about a 25hp tractor, so in round numbers I see no reason why an option like added hydraulics wouldn't work on a 33hp and up machine.
Good way to experience this is to put something such as a plow in the ground with a loader equipped tractor and while its pulling that plow just raise the loader or roll the bucket with nothing on it, you'll hear the engine note change and feel the the power loss may not be much but you'll know the engine is having to transfer it's power elsewhere.
Great video. This has been one of my pet peeves with my Kubota B2650 tractor. Great tractor, but the PTO horsepower is low. Eventhough the loader has a skidsteer quick attach, I can't run something like a hydraulic snow blower on the front. I thought the solution would be to purchase a PTO driven Hydraulic Power Pack to give my tractor that extra hydraulic flow. Yet most PTO Hydraulic Power Packs out there reguire a tractor to have a minumum 40 to 50 horse power to operate and they can be very expensive. Again very frustrating.
running a snow blower out front with hydraulics is a terrible idea on any tractor. Lots of people want to do it, but mechanically it does not translate well.
@@MessicksEquip Interesting comment, much appreciated and something to think about. The other hydraulic implement I was considering for the front of my tractor was a brush mower. How would that work? Since you raised a very interesting point, which type of implement would you not recommend to be run on the front loader? Thanks.
Wow Neil, it was like you were talking directly to me! You were even on a L3301. Great job explaining everything about flow. I knew there had to be a reasonable explanation and now we know. I still want more flow though! 😂 Thanks!
This is my problem Neil. I have a B7800 with a Woods backhoe. I need more weight capacity for my FEL as here in NH the glaciers left half the granite from the mountain tops on my property. I also need more power got my backhoe for stumping and bolders. I looked at the L39 as an upgrade but it's only giving me about 20 percent more force which, as you said, is not much for the price. I looked at the L4060 but that is big money and cuts down on maneuverability in the woods go pull logs. Is there a compact tractor model that hits the sweet spot?
I am looking at subcompact tractors and found a skid steer log splitter. Looks awesome to be able to drive to the log round and split it then move to the next. Problem is it requires 8gpm and the tractor I am looking at is 4.2gpm. I am not considering the splitter now, but am wondering what happens if you under power a hydraulic implement? In this case would it just be speed or could actual splitting force be affected?
@MessicksEquip I have a $1200 gas log splitter. It does a great job. I'm interested in the above mentioned comment. Being able to use the SS log splitter as a means to move the log would increase productivity. Having a pile of cut logs that need to be split, I would love to drive over each piece and split it over the trailer. This would save a ton of time, not having to move the same puce of wood 3 times.
Great explanation Neil, and don't forget about the heat generated pumping large volumes of oil. On a different subject of hp usage, I keep hearing about the hp required to run the AC in a small tractor like the B2650. Could you set up a dyno test of the pto hp output with the AC on and the AC off, that would be awesome info.
Messick's Question - Is there any other factors besides PTO Horsepower and Speed to make one machine Blow Snow better than another ? I am interested in looking into getting a small tractor to maybe Blow Snow / Plow Snow / Have a loader and Pull a Land Plane. A video on that would be great. But I'd love to know. I really want to get one. Was thinking BX2680 or Deere 1025R / 2025R
It's been awhile since I have seen what Deere is doing. Kubota just changed to the newer 4-pt hitch which is a lot easier than the old one is. I think Deere still sources the snow-blower head itself from RAD-tech, same company Kubota gets theirs from.
Hey Neil thanks for having an easy to use krone parts catalog on your website i like it cause sadly as a customer i still gotta do the job off the parts person sometimes
Neil can you do a video on forestry equipment . Specifically a ctl with a forestry head on it. I would like to get educated on some things and you are the right person for that 😎 thanks .
Your information is aways great and i have learned a lot i have one question why would they include the gpm for the power steering in the rating for the tractor my thought is if you cant use it don’t publish it
I agree you needed it for horse power to hydraulic output and for the video you right on the money I guess its just like advertised lifting capacity its where it’s measured and everyone and a different spot to use
I think he said it in a way that left it easy to misunderstand and had the "save" of it in the end of the sentences. An open loop hydraulic system pumps oil around all the time but the pressure mentioned isn't there. So it doesn't take much engine power to just pump it around. But if you connect a hydraulic motor and it drives something heavy, then they pressure goes up (until safely valve limits it). Then it takes more power off the engine.
One could be contaminents - I guess the hydrostatic system is sensitive to the oil it uses. They don't want mr. cheap connect it up to some old equipment with bad oil in it and have it mixed in. Another factor could be that (not talking Kubota here specifically cause I don't know) they buy they transmission system from one supplier and the working hydraulics from another. My ag tractor with no fancy transmission have one double pump (high and low pressure circuit) and the steering is first in line on the high pressure with a priority valve. I remember the manufacturer at least recently had models with basic transmission and other options with full power shift and CVT. The basic transmission, like previous models, shared the transmission oil with the working hydraulic, but for their (in house developed CVT and FPS) they had gone and septated them into different reservoirs but some common wall inside that could exchange heat. So it was clearly a concern of not wanting potential nasty oils into the delicate system.
Interesting information, It would be nice to see the power steering flow and Tractor/SCV flows separate. I'm waiting on the results of the M5-111 that the steering won't turn with a load on the loader while sitting still, (SLC Farms). Also no float on the SCV with the M5-111. Just a few changes in this tractor would make it a top seller.
I own a new holland boomer 24, I looked at lots of tractors. The boomer 24 was just the right size. Like I think it's the perfect size. By the time I got done outfitting it I have about 40 grand into it. And I'm a poor boy, so obviously there is a market for people that would pay for a better sub compact tractor with all the bells and whistles included and engineered in, and very well thought out. When adding a WR long 3rd function, a rear remote, backhoe, cab, heater and Air conditioning, quick attach plate, quick hitch system. It wasnt designed to have all of these components, and they didnt package together very well. I'd love a higher horsepower, higher flow, higher lifting capacity, standard bells and whistles machine, and sacrifice on price. I believe theres gotta be a market for that. I guess that's kind of what a ventrac is. But I had my issues with those too.
They also have pto driven hydraulic pump/reservoir units available that a tractor owner can add to drive high flow demand implements. But it's still an additional cost to consider.
Why not just add a secondary pump into the loop that you can kick in when you know that you're going to be doing something that requires a lot of hydraulic flow but can be done stationary, like operating a backhoe or a posthole auger? In that scenario, allowing the pump(s) to use as much engine horsepower as possible would actually be beneficial, since you're otherwise limiting the amount of work you can get done in a set amount of time for no good reason, plus that you're not utilizing the engine to it's full capacity which is wasteful. I know for example that some slightly older Ag-sized Zetor tractors have PTO-dependant hydraulic pumps that increase the hydraulic flow by roughly 20l/min (5gpm) when you bump the PTO speed from 540rpm to 1000rpm. It's obviously not recommended to run the pump at that speed constantly since it wears the pump, but it's still a decent way of getting a bit of extra flow out of your tractor when you need it.
That's not quite true Neil. When you're pumping hydraulic fluid around the tractor and not using any of it it does not use hardly any power. Because it will be at zero PSI. You only build up pressure when there is resistance to flow which is what happens when you use hydraulic fluid. So just pumping 10 gallons per minute through the machine Will use practically no power. power is only consumed when the hydraulic fluid is asked to do work Edit: I wrote that comment and hit post right before you brought up the caveat that you just agreed with exactly what I was saying. So discount what I previously said. Lol
Sorry brother, but I am a mechanical engineer, and what you are saying about power and fluid flow is wrong when applied to tractor hydraulic systems. Yes it takes some much power to make so much fluid flow at so many psi in a given amount of time. There is a physical constant for that, formulas, the works. But you are not applying these facts correctly at all to tractor hydraulic systems. You say for so much flow, this eats up most of the horsepower of a tractor, and little is left for whatever. Well that is not really true. Just the fluid flowing does not eat up power. Parasitic loss is very small, and here is why. When the tractor's hydraulic valves are in the center (neutral), hydraulic oil does not dead-head and blow open the relief valve. It goes through the valve, and on back to the reservoir. Circular flow with no work (movement) being done. If you measure pressure in the system with a gauge, it will be 1 or 2 psi. Not enough to make the needle move. Yes this is a small parasite loss, but not like you describe it. If the fluid was dead-headed in the valve and holding 1000 psi or more, then yes there is flow being turned into heat, and work is being done. But that is not how tractors and their valves are set-up. Yes there are some hydraulic system set up to run at full pressure all the time, weather there is demand for flow or not, but not in the tractor world. Industrial manufacturing machines yes, but not tractors. -- Now, if you are actually using your hydraulics to do work, like lifting something with the front end loader bucket, you only build pressure in the hydraulic system based on the actual load weight being lifted in the bucket. You can actually have a pressure gauge in the system, and the heavier load that you lift, the more pressure that will be indicated on the gauge. Only with a load so heavy that the tractor can barely lift, will you see a high pressure on the gauge, nearing the maximum pressure of the system. If you lift an empty bucket, you might only see maybe 100 psi in a system designed for 1000 psi max. This means you are only building pressure in the system and using it's flow when lifting or otherwise doing work. You are not consuming max power all the time. Only are you consuming some power based on the weight you are lifting and the speed you are spinning the pump (throttle setting). Now, a higher flow pump will deliver more power, given the same pressure, our old friend physics there, but is is on demand, not all the time. Parasite loss will be larger with a bigger pump, but it is still 2 or 3 psi. In your post hole auger example, yes you are using maximum flow, and pressure is based on the resistance it sees digging through the ground. But again, with the drilling auger, you do not need horsepower for anything else! The tractor is not moving, nothing on the PTO, it is just digging a hole. Heck yes it could use a larger pump, with very little disadvantage when seeing loader or other hydraulic attachment uses. I think you are using a straw-man argument here. Stating some facts and figures, and trying to correlate them to tractor hydraulic pump flow. Not all the things you are saying apply to the degree you asserting them to be relevant. It is great that you are trying to explain hydraulic pump flow to tractor buyers, but you might want to dig in to the details of hydraulic systems a little bit more to ensure you give good advise. Please don't take my comments as negative, Just trying to help. --Doozer
I had the same issue as you with his analysis. Typical hydraulic pressures for this class tractor is 2000-2500 psi, so call the psi a constant across machines. Then the hydraulic flow rate is directly proportional to engine horsepower, at a constant psi dictated by the bypass valve under full load. Doesn't matter whether the hydraulic power is going to the hst transmission or loader and bucket - often both - the flow can't be increased (allowing you to move faster, raise the loader faster) without increasing the tractor hp.
I was thinking the same thing and for any front loader mounted equipment that "could" be a viable option but just like Neil said, "no free lunch" so you do lose something.
@motor2of7 You are correct, but for a device like a front mounted snow blower, post hole digger or any other if the many devices that can be put up there you will get a high volume flow from a 3 point mounted pto driven pump/reservoir system as the tractor is designed to give (as in my tractor a B2920) 20 ish horsepower to the PTO while still doing all the normal functions of the tractor. So the separate system will run your add on equipment, it may look like a Frankenstein with the giant box/PTO pump/hoses compilation but it will work. Now I have been wrong in the past and very well could be wrong here and like neal said "no free lunch" means it's no longer compact and pretty but "funtional" Also, thisnis just theory based since I dont have the large cash flow needed to purchase said hydraulic system and try it out. If I did, i would have bought a larger tractor that had the larger high flow pump with 3rd or 4th functioning remote on the joystick controls. 🤣🤣
Thaddeus Troyer I completely agree. I was just commenting on the HP question. Lots of advantages to adding a high volume PTO pump. I’ve considered building such a setup to power a FEL mounted mower.
Not a good reason. There should be a gear shifter for the hydraulic pump so that the operator can decide if they want high PTO power or high hydraulic power. The hydraulic pump can rotate slowly when the operator want more power to the PTO and faster when more power is needed for hydraulics. I would happily pay five thousand dollars on a sixty thousand dollar tractor for that option. I have a suspicion that Kubota and other companies do not want to cannibalize sales of their skid steers.
That's kinda the same option that high-flow on a skid loader is. That would be cool to see. I can't see a concern on cannibalization though, they are still selling a machine and with this option it would be a machine of equal cost.
Just make it an option... make it a future upgrade. While the design time is money, it will pay for itself and offer a wide range of upgrades to the people that want it for all tractor sizes. Never understood why you can get a 50-60hp tractor that only has 10gpm. Open up the implement choices, there are so many implements for skid steers that makes no sense to have such weak pumps. besides. having 15gpm pumps is not that big a deal in terms of parasitic loss when not in use. What are you giving up? 2-3HP? That is nothing in regards to having the utility to run a front auger and other skid steer attachments.
Your maching will not run a 40HP mulcher at the same time it will run a front hydraulic mower (if it were capable of running a front mower like a skid steer). I wish at minimum most of these tractors would start in 15gpm like a low flow skid steer.
It costs both power and dollars, there's a reason they can't run a car on water, it's because you use more power electrolyzing the water than burning it gives back.
You can run a car with water. Not on water. Why we are not running steam compressed cars is beyond me. With solar assist, brake assist and the heating elements we have today, you know it is possible.
Hey Neil, just finishing up my Hydraulics class in my engineering program. You were pretty much spot on with the technical explanation in the video! Another thing to keep in mind is that there are two aspects to "power" in hydraulic actuators: horsepower and torque. It may be possible to raise the flow rate of the hydraulics and make it go faster, but you are going to lose torque as you do. It doesn't do much good to have more flow if you are stalling anytime there is load.
Same with say motorcycle sprocket or automotive differentials. If you want top end (high flow) you sacrifice torque (pressure). And vice versa.
This is were torque multipliers come into play. Cross manufacturing makes PTO pumps that use torque multiplier. See their 50T052. 3 times the flow with the same HP.
I'd LOVE to see a diverter of some kind, where more horses can be used to flow with a gear shift or electric valve switch. There are plenty of jobs where the tractor doesn't need to move much, or at all; auger, stump grinder, forester head, etc. Tractors are designed with old-school Ag mentality. It's all about towing implements, with a need for ground-engaging torque. Some jobs just need to be able to roll the tires, not pull.
The biggest part of the problem is conservation of power, which would be flow vs pressure, on a compact tractor that typically has less than 35 total HP to work with. You cannot make more power, so you have to trade flow for pressure and vice versa. At the end of the day, Kubota (Deer, Mahindra, etc) spec out a balance of flow and pressure that gets them the lift capacity and cycle times they are marketing for. Your typical skid steer has much more power to work with and thus easier to deliver the best of both worlds.
Hi Neil! Thanks for that clear and concise explanation on hydraulic flow! You are very good at explaining complex tractor stuff to common folk like me and it is much appreciated!
Very educational video, thanks Neil. This ones a keeper, it's going in the Kubota folder.
Well stated, however the same doesn't apply to Hydrostatic drive tractors. The John Deere 1 series for instance only has Mechanical Front Wheel Drive. Other than the PTO everything else is Hydraulic powered.
A fixed displacement gear pump with open center dcv's (directional flow valves) will not take the full horsepower they require while the valves are in neutral. In neutral the pump is full flow at low pressure. On variable displacement pressure compensated or load sensing system (the higher end type systems you brought up) the neutral position gives you high pressure low flow. The opposite of the open center setup. Both have some drain on horsepower when not in use. Neither is consuming all the power they can in that neutral state.
Very well spoken young man . Explained the parasitic loss potential perfectly ! Wish all presentations were this smooth . Thanks .
So is this why the R430/530/630 doin't have enough Hydrualic power to run brooms and stuff? Would it be worth it to run skid steer type hydraulic high pressures to make wheel loaders more versatile?
630 can do it. On the smaller models there are other mechanical limitations
For instance the Kabota L 47 and M 62 I think need more hydraulic flow for small companies like mine. Who can't buy two different machines. I was looking to buy one machine to do both jobs but these machines do not have the flow output that I really needed.
That's a good example of a machine that would benefit. They would need a ton more power though, they already run an extra pump for the double backhoe circuit
A auxiliary pto pump might be an effective solution
Interesting video! Just saw a video on a hydraulic pump that is pto driven and goes between tractor and hay baling equipment! Is anyone making such solutions for loader equipment that needs high flow?
Because more flow is often accomplished by increased pressure and the hydraulic devices are rated at a given pressure. Exceed rated pressure and you break things.
I'd like to reduce the pressure where my relief opens, because stalling the engine shouldn't be the first "safety" to trip.
Great video!! Thank you!! I wanted to modify my tractor for more flow but this makes sense. Thanks
Thanks Neil, you explained that really well. I didn't know this. I kinda knew this but had forgotten, i worked at a Compressor Station 20 years ago and we had 8 and 10 cylinder Cooper Bessemer engines with 2000 HP. Any kind of addon auxilary robs horse power. These Monster engines had hydraulic pumps that had 6" hydraulic lines to run the fin fan coolers that set outside the compressor building. Each engine has 5 compressors attached to them. So i realized that anything else added including hydraulic pumps can rob HP from the drive train. Thanks buddy.
Manufacturers could do more i would like to see a 50-65 hp tractor set up as tool carrier. You could run augers, snow blowers, brush cutters and all sorts of neat stuff. I think whoever steps up to the plate will do well with sales. Have closed center system as an option.
Closed center is huge $$$, but I agree a tool carrier version would be great.
They do have this, they call them skid steers and compact track loaders
Sounds ok initially, however there is no need for continuous hydraulic hp while the tractor is moving . While stationary you may want power a log splitter, chipper, auger etc. Having a much larger hydraulic pump is possible and would only reduce the net tractor hp by a small amount when the pump is not loaded. The steering circuit is separate and only requires intermittent hp. The design is biased to cost and not on the needs of the user.
Yeah this is a terrible explanation.
Could you add external pto driven pump? Turn off pto to drive to next location.
.
Yes you can, its called a power pack. they are pretty spendy but typically put out huge flow
They are now making power packs and lower prices.. there is one power pack I think it’s made by land shark supposedly they sell for under 2k and can be used on a sub compact tractor.. total weight of the power pack is about 400lbs so it can act as a good ballast as well.
I would like to see these tractors being sold as an option for PTO HP vs hydraulic flow.. as thats typically the trade off as Neil explains in this video.. maybe have an option to lower your PTO HP to gain a few GPM on your pump that would be great.. as more people these days wanna run front hydraulic attachments over rear PTO attachments
Video request: Flail mower vs brush mower
I agree
Third
What you say makes sense. The only part I can't get my head around is if my 25hp tractor can push a 60" snow blower running off the PTO, why can't it do the same thing hydraulically? Likely because the benefit of more flow is only going to help in specific cases and hurt tractor performance in many other uses. Perhaps the economical solution for smaller tractors would be a clutched second pump in the hydraulic system that the user can engage when applicable. Surely that could be an affordable option that could be added to at least the larger compact tractors for space reasons. The cynic in me says the manufactures prefer to sell the mid PTO, forward drive kit, and front mount kit that are all quite tractor model specific to allow a front snow blower instead of a couple hoses to connect a skid steer option on the loader arms.
Efficiency. Shafts move power more efficiently than pumping fluids.
@@MessicksEquip Absolutely there are losses, but I don't think into the go/no go territory. Your video of HST vs Geared had 1120 vs 1500 respectively. From the perspective of the geared tractor that is a 25% loss and that was with the geared tractor having a ratio producing 1 mile/hour less speed so really it is less than 25% loss. A 33hp tractor on the same frame with 25% loss is about a 25hp tractor, so in round numbers I see no reason why an option like added hydraulics wouldn't work on a 33hp and up machine.
It could. Expense would be the second reason. You do see this with skid steers, it's not like it's not done. Just not in this application.
Good way to experience this is to put something such as a plow in the ground with a loader equipped tractor and while its pulling that plow just raise the loader or roll the bucket with nothing on it, you'll hear the engine note change and feel the the power loss may not be much but you'll know the engine is having to transfer it's power elsewhere.
You have taught me something today! Good information and well presented!
Good job of putting this into layman's terms
Great info. Bigger isn’t always better!
Great video. This has been one of my pet peeves with my Kubota B2650 tractor. Great tractor, but the PTO horsepower is low. Eventhough the loader has a skidsteer quick attach, I can't run something like a hydraulic snow blower on the front.
I thought the solution would be to purchase a PTO driven Hydraulic Power Pack to give my tractor that extra hydraulic flow. Yet most PTO Hydraulic Power Packs out there reguire a tractor to have a minumum 40 to 50 horse power to operate and they can be very expensive.
Again very frustrating.
running a snow blower out front with hydraulics is a terrible idea on any tractor. Lots of people want to do it, but mechanically it does not translate well.
@@MessicksEquip Interesting comment, much appreciated and something to think about. The other hydraulic implement I was considering for the front of my tractor was a brush mower. How would that work?
Since you raised a very interesting point, which type of implement would you not recommend to be run on the front loader? Thanks.
on a B2650, I'd not run a mower either. Some L\MX tractors can get away with running 48" ones.
👍 another excellent post
Wow Neil, it was like you were talking directly to me! You were even on a L3301. Great job explaining everything about flow. I knew there had to be a reasonable explanation and now we know. I still want more flow though! 😂
Thanks!
Lots of pople up the pressure of their hydraulic system. Would you recommend that?
ua-cam.com/video/N-rmmmJFer0/v-deo.html
Great videos! Can you do a few videos on the high horsepower row crop and articulating tractors?
This is my problem Neil. I have a B7800 with a Woods backhoe. I need more weight capacity for my FEL as here in NH the glaciers left half the granite from the mountain tops on my property. I also need more power got my backhoe for stumping and bolders. I looked at the L39 as an upgrade but it's only giving me about 20 percent more force which, as you said, is not much for the price. I looked at the L4060 but that is big money and cuts down on maneuverability in the woods go pull logs. Is there a compact tractor model that hits the sweet spot?
We all want one that will do everything 😅
L45-l39 is way more tractor. Specs only tell half the story
I agree and I prefer a slow turning auger.
Great information Neal
I am looking at subcompact tractors and found a skid steer log splitter. Looks awesome to be able to drive to the log round and split it then move to the next. Problem is it requires 8gpm and the tractor I am looking at is 4.2gpm. I am not considering the splitter now, but am wondering what happens if you under power a hydraulic implement? In this case would it just be speed or could actual splitting force be affected?
Mostly speed
@@MessicksEquip if that is the case, would it damage the tractor or log splitter at all running it on the subcompact?
@@fmixthings damage.. no, probably not. I'd still never go that route. A $1200 gas powered one will put it to shame.
@MessicksEquip I have a $1200 gas log splitter. It does a great job. I'm interested in the above mentioned comment. Being able to use the SS log splitter as a means to move the log would increase productivity. Having a pile of cut logs that need to be split, I would love to drive over each piece and split it over the trailer. This would save a ton of time, not having to move the same puce of wood 3 times.
Great explanation Neil. Put into terms most can understand.
Neil there is no such thing as a free lunch! great video these are things I would never think of I just want it to work how I want it to work!! Ha Ha
So all I need is a BX with 100 hp...
Great explanation Neil, and don't forget about the heat generated pumping large volumes of oil. On a different subject of hp usage, I keep hearing about the hp required to run the AC in a small tractor like the B2650. Could you set up a dyno test of the pto hp output with the AC on and the AC off, that would be awesome info.
Good points!!
Messick's
Question - Is there any other factors besides PTO Horsepower and Speed to make one machine Blow Snow better than another ? I am interested in looking into getting a small tractor to maybe Blow Snow / Plow Snow / Have a loader and Pull a Land Plane. A video on that would be great. But I'd love to know. I really want to get one. Was thinking BX2680 or Deere 1025R / 2025R
The biggest thing I would look at is the mounting process for the front snow blower or plow. Performance wise, they are all about the same.
@@MessicksEquip How does the process for mounting snow blower on Kubota vs. the John Deere
It's been awhile since I have seen what Deere is doing. Kubota just changed to the newer 4-pt hitch which is a lot easier than the old one is. I think Deere still sources the snow-blower head itself from RAD-tech, same company Kubota gets theirs from.
Hey Neil thanks for having an easy to use krone parts catalog on your website i like it cause sadly as a customer i still gotta do the job off the parts person sometimes
Always great videos!!
Thank you Neil very educational😁
Neil can you do a video on forestry equipment . Specifically a ctl with a forestry head on it. I would like to get educated on some things and you are the right person for that 😎 thanks .
I did a loftness one a few months ago. There is a new rotary style I will do once we have stock in a few weeks
Messick's sounds great I’ll keep looking out for it .
Your information is aways great and i have learned a lot i have one question why would they include the gpm for the power steering in the rating for the tractor my thought is if you cant use it don’t publish it
Yea, I don't disagree with that. Its kinda shady when its lumped together. I did in this case because its all relevant to the discussion.
I agree you needed it for horse power to hydraulic output and for the video you right on the money I guess its just like advertised lifting capacity its where it’s measured and everyone and a different spot to use
No free lunch. Good stuff.
3301 is only 22hp?
What are you talking about?
I caught the same thing. In his example he said it took 14hp to pump the fluid leaving only 8hp to drive the tractor. His math doesn’t work
@@motor2of7 We can forgive him though! He's done a lot of great vids.
@@svtirefire L3301 Net horsepower is around 31.
I think he said it in a way that left it easy to misunderstand and had the "save" of it in the end of the sentences. An open loop hydraulic system pumps oil around all the time but the pressure mentioned isn't there. So it doesn't take much engine power to just pump it around. But if you connect a hydraulic motor and it drives something heavy, then they pressure goes up (until safely valve limits it). Then it takes more power off the engine.
Why do they have 3 separate pumps for main hydraulic, steering, and hydrostatic transmission instead of 1 pump for all 3?
Spud Gamer doesn’t matter. Still takes the same energy to move the fluid regardless of how many pumps you split the load across.
One could be contaminents - I guess the hydrostatic system is sensitive to the oil it uses. They don't want mr. cheap connect it up to some old equipment with bad oil in it and have it mixed in.
Another factor could be that (not talking Kubota here specifically cause I don't know) they buy they transmission system from one supplier and the working hydraulics from another.
My ag tractor with no fancy transmission have one double pump (high and low pressure circuit) and the steering is first in line on the high pressure with a priority valve.
I remember the manufacturer at least recently had models with basic transmission and other options with full power shift and CVT. The basic transmission, like previous models, shared the transmission oil with the working hydraulic, but for their (in house developed CVT and FPS) they had gone and septated them into different reservoirs but some common wall inside that could exchange heat. So it was clearly a concern of not wanting potential nasty oils into the delicate system.
great video and for those wanting more hydraulic power buy or build a pto hydraulic unit.
I know you've pro it said it before but I'm new to your chanell. Where is your dealership located ?
Very interesting. Nice job explaining
Interesting information, It would be nice to see the power steering flow and Tractor/SCV flows separate. I'm waiting on the results of the M5-111 that the steering won't turn with a load on the loader while sitting still, (SLC Farms). Also no float on the SCV with the M5-111. Just a few changes in this tractor would make it a top seller.
Yes Neil, I'm in the market for a new BX, please open a dealership in S.WI. and I'll definitely buy from you. 👍
Very educational neil 😉👍🏻
Hey Neil when will you have the new lx series tractors
May-June
@@MessicksEquip thanks
Great video, again, Neil! Sounds like you can’t have your cake and have your jeans fit also...
Great information love the vid
Good point on things
Well said
I own a new holland boomer 24, I looked at lots of tractors. The boomer 24 was just the right size. Like I think it's the perfect size. By the time I got done outfitting it I have about 40 grand into it. And I'm a poor boy, so obviously there is a market for people that would pay for a better sub compact tractor with all the bells and whistles included and engineered in, and very well thought out. When adding a WR long 3rd function, a rear remote, backhoe, cab, heater and Air conditioning, quick attach plate, quick hitch system. It wasnt designed to have all of these components, and they didnt package together very well. I'd love a higher horsepower, higher flow, higher lifting capacity, standard bells and whistles machine, and sacrifice on price. I believe theres gotta be a market for that. I guess that's kind of what a ventrac is. But I had my issues with those too.
Well they could add a electric powered booster pump for under high demand conditions.
But it would add addition cost.
They also have pto driven hydraulic pump/reservoir units available that a tractor owner can add to drive high flow demand implements. But it's still an additional cost to consider.
Do you have information on the new LX series
Why not just add a secondary pump into the loop that you can kick in when you know that you're going to be doing something that requires a lot of hydraulic flow but can be done stationary, like operating a backhoe or a posthole auger? In that scenario, allowing the pump(s) to use as much engine horsepower as possible would actually be beneficial, since you're otherwise limiting the amount of work you can get done in a set amount of time for no good reason, plus that you're not utilizing the engine to it's full capacity which is wasteful. I know for example that some slightly older Ag-sized Zetor tractors have PTO-dependant hydraulic pumps that increase the hydraulic flow by roughly 20l/min (5gpm) when you bump the PTO speed from 540rpm to 1000rpm. It's obviously not recommended to run the pump at that speed constantly since it wears the pump, but it's still a decent way of getting a bit of extra flow out of your tractor when you need it.
Would be interesting. That's how a skid steer high flow works.
But that would cannibalize skid steer sales so no bueno.
That's not quite true Neil. When you're pumping hydraulic fluid around the tractor and not using any of it it does not use hardly any power. Because it will be at zero PSI. You only build up pressure when there is resistance to flow which is what happens when you use hydraulic fluid. So just pumping 10 gallons per minute through the machine Will use practically no power. power is only consumed when the hydraulic fluid is asked to do work
Edit: I wrote that comment and hit post right before you brought up the caveat that you just agreed with exactly what I was saying. So discount what I previously said. Lol
Sorry brother, but I am a mechanical engineer, and what you are saying about power and fluid flow is wrong when applied to tractor hydraulic systems. Yes it takes some much power to make so much fluid flow at so many psi in a given amount of time. There is a physical constant for that, formulas, the works. But you are not applying these facts correctly at all to tractor hydraulic systems. You say for so much flow, this eats up most of the horsepower of a tractor, and little is left for whatever. Well that is not really true. Just the fluid flowing does not eat up power. Parasitic loss is very small, and here is why. When the tractor's hydraulic valves are in the center (neutral), hydraulic oil does not dead-head and blow open the relief valve. It goes through the valve, and on back to the reservoir. Circular flow with no work (movement) being done. If you measure pressure in the system with a gauge, it will be 1 or 2 psi. Not enough to make the needle move. Yes this is a small parasite loss, but not like you describe it. If the fluid was dead-headed in the valve and holding 1000 psi or more, then yes there is flow being turned into heat, and work is being done. But that is not how tractors and their valves are set-up. Yes there are some hydraulic system set up to run at full pressure all the time, weather there is demand for flow or not, but not in the tractor world. Industrial manufacturing machines yes, but not tractors. -- Now, if you are actually using your hydraulics to do work, like lifting something with the front end loader bucket, you only build pressure in the hydraulic system based on the actual load weight being lifted in the bucket. You can actually have a pressure gauge in the system, and the heavier load that you lift, the more pressure that will be indicated on the gauge. Only with a load so heavy that the tractor can barely lift, will you see a high pressure on the gauge, nearing the maximum pressure of the system. If you lift an empty bucket, you might only see maybe 100 psi in a system designed for 1000 psi max. This means you are only building pressure in the system and using it's flow when lifting or otherwise doing work. You are not consuming max power all the time. Only are you consuming some power based on the weight you are lifting and the speed you are spinning the pump (throttle setting). Now, a higher flow pump will deliver more power, given the same pressure, our old friend physics there, but is is on demand, not all the time. Parasite loss will be larger with a bigger pump, but it is still 2 or 3 psi. In your post hole auger example, yes you are using maximum flow, and pressure is based on the resistance it sees digging through the ground. But again, with the drilling auger, you do not need horsepower for anything else! The tractor is not moving, nothing on the PTO, it is just digging a hole. Heck yes it could use a larger pump, with very little disadvantage when seeing loader or other hydraulic attachment uses. I think you are using a straw-man argument here. Stating some facts and figures, and trying to correlate them to tractor hydraulic pump flow. Not all the things you are saying apply to the degree you asserting them to be relevant. It is great that you are trying to explain hydraulic pump flow to tractor buyers, but you might want to dig in to the details of hydraulic systems a little bit more to ensure you give good advise. Please don't take my comments as negative, Just trying to help. --Doozer
I had the same issue as you with his analysis. Typical hydraulic pressures for this class tractor is 2000-2500 psi, so call the psi a constant across machines. Then the hydraulic flow rate is directly proportional to engine horsepower, at a constant psi dictated by the bypass valve under full load. Doesn't matter whether the hydraulic power is going to the hst transmission or loader and bucket - often both - the flow can't be increased (allowing you to move faster, raise the loader faster) without increasing the tractor hp.
You can always add a PTO driven hydraulic pump
Yeah but then you don't have a 3point hitch or draw bar.
I was thinking the same thing and for any front loader mounted equipment that "could" be a viable option but just like Neil said, "no free lunch" so you do lose something.
The PTO pump just draws horsepower from the same engine. It doesn’t change the outcome
@motor2of7
You are correct, but for a device like a front mounted snow blower, post hole digger or any other if the many devices that can be put up there you will get a high volume flow from a 3 point mounted pto driven pump/reservoir system as the tractor is designed to give (as in my tractor a B2920) 20 ish horsepower to the PTO while still doing all the normal functions of the tractor. So the separate system will run your add on equipment, it may look like a Frankenstein with the giant box/PTO pump/hoses compilation but it will work. Now I have been wrong in the past and very well could be wrong here and like neal said "no free lunch" means it's no longer compact and pretty but "funtional"
Also, thisnis just theory based since I dont have the large cash flow needed to purchase said hydraulic system and try it out. If I did, i would have bought a larger tractor that had the larger high flow pump with 3rd or 4th functioning remote on the joystick controls. 🤣🤣
Thaddeus Troyer I completely agree. I was just commenting on the HP question.
Lots of advantages to adding a high volume PTO pump. I’ve considered building such a setup to power a FEL mounted mower.
Not a good reason. There should be a gear shifter for the hydraulic pump so that the operator can decide if they want high PTO power or high hydraulic power. The hydraulic pump can rotate slowly when the operator want more power to the PTO and faster when more power is needed for hydraulics. I would happily pay five thousand dollars on a sixty thousand dollar tractor for that option. I have a suspicion that Kubota and other companies do not want to cannibalize sales of their skid steers.
That's kinda the same option that high-flow on a skid loader is. That would be cool to see. I can't see a concern on cannibalization though, they are still selling a machine and with this option it would be a machine of equal cost.
Don't kid yourself! The hydro system on that little Kubota also costs thousands and thousands of dollars too!
Just make it an option... make it a future upgrade. While the design time is money, it will pay for itself and offer a wide range of upgrades to the people that want it for all tractor sizes. Never understood why you can get a 50-60hp tractor that only has 10gpm. Open up the implement choices, there are so many implements for skid steers that makes no sense to have such weak pumps. besides. having 15gpm pumps is not that big a deal in terms of parasitic loss when not in use. What are you giving up? 2-3HP? That is nothing in regards to having the utility to run a front auger and other skid steer attachments.
Still can't do a write off? 🤔🤔🤔
In other words, more flow will cost more, and if I want an affordable tractor, I need to back off on my wishlist.
There you go- talking sense again. What are you trying to do? Break the internet???
Your maching will not run a 40HP mulcher at the same time it will run a front hydraulic mower (if it were capable of running a front mower like a skid steer). I wish at minimum most of these tractors would start in 15gpm like a low flow skid steer.
Bs
It costs both power and dollars, there's a reason they can't run a car on water, it's because you use more power electrolyzing the water than burning it gives back.
You can run a car with water. Not on water. Why we are not running steam compressed cars is beyond me. With solar assist, brake assist and the heating elements we have today, you know it is possible.
Rofl Stomps but not gonna get anyone anywhere on day to day stuff.
@@FishFind3000 why's that?
First