Hello Oxford Union, I'd just like to thank you for uploading these videos. I know that often these controversial videos receive criticism in the comments section, but personally I find them fascinating and incredibly valuable. It's such a privilege to be able to look in on one of the greatest debating chambers in the world for free. Please keep uploading all your debates and speeches. Thank you very much.
+HitManHey Indeed! It's not the way it works. In England ethnic minorities are given special protection. In South Africa, ehtnic minorities are actively persecuted. Affirmitave action was introduced in California two decades ago so that minority blacks and hispanics could achieve a pass with lower marks (it was abandoned shortly after as it just doesn't work!) - In South Africa, affirmative action was introduced so that the majority of the population could achieve a pass with a lower mark... How can this possibly benefit an emerging nation? Further, I find the Nelson Mandella Childrens Fund a little hard to swallow seen as he directed the M.K. terrorist organisation from his cell on Robben Island - orchestrating the successful murders of dozens of innocent South African civilians... yet nobody calls for his statue to be removed? Glaring double standards - and stupid liberal posturing by ill informed upstarts! As you said, when asked for them to give up their Scholarships or refund any money taken in the past you will get a "tumbleweed" moment.... Once liberal guilt starts to hit the liberal in the pocket, it does tend to deflate somewhat!
+Matthew Wilkes "Further, I find the Nelson Mandella Childrens Fund a little hard to swallow seen as he directed the M.K. terrorist organisation from his cell on Robben Island - orchestrating the successful murders of dozens of innocent South African civilians... yet nobody calls for his statue to be removed?"Who did he order killed?
Next it will be Winston Churchill, who loved the British Empire and Commonwealth. Take down Rhodes statue, but, if you do, then end all Rhodes Scholarships for non-British students at Oxford. Let us remember the Oxford Union of the 1930's that voted against fighting for King and Country, with Hitler and the Nazis in power in Germany...
+99IronDuke British values mean different things to different people. Churchill should be criticised for his support of the Empire (and also praised for things he did well too).
Remove all images of Cromwell because he was responsible for the deaths of 41% of the Irish population during his conquest. Censor yourself for one group and every other group will ask for the same treatment. Why should South African students be able to take down a statue and Irish students cannot. If you take down the statue you either create a double standard or you will end up taking down almost every statue.
+Padraig O'Connor Censoring history because it's "offensive", guess these fuckheads never heard of "Who doesn't learn from history, will be doomed to repeat it", I guess they want slavery and shit again.
I'm from South Africa and agree. If you look at the universities here. They had a Rhodes Must Fall movement, whereby the statue of Rhodes was removed from The University of Cape Town. Ever since then problems have escalated dramatically at the Universities. This whole movement has brought problems of the past into our future, whereby radicals with ridiculous ideas think that since they managed to topple this statue, they can topple the system if their demands are not met. Something that started off being supposedly peaceful, has led to an avalanche of anarchy. As far as I'm concerned if these South Africans who are in ENGLAND are not happy, leave. Come back home and try enrich yourself here in a system where the Rhodes must Fall movement succeeded.
+Victor Vic If South Africans want to remove statues of Rhodes in their country then I have no problem with it. It's just an issue when you try to make another country conform to you, ie colonise them.
As an Oxfordian myself, I do wonder why these "black" students didn't stay in Africa for their studies when they deem Oxford to be such a structurally racist institution. I would not attend Tsighua in China if I deemed it structurally racist. I simply would not attend. Might it be something to do with self-interest on that part of these African students? Of course, impossible.
As an African myself, I do wonder why Rhodes and those of his ilk did not stay in europe and came to Africa instead!To live amongst the very people they deemed inferior and in need of subjugation.
So there is a statue of Efunroye Tinubu a notorious 19th C slave trader in Nigeria as well as a square named after her in Lagos, no one is campaigning for it to be torn down- funny that.
You cannot change history by demolishing artefacts of history. You don't change the future by cherry picking from and misrepresenting history to suit your narrative. The future may not look too kindly on your legacy, just as you do now to those of history's past.
+Samchocolate11 There definitely was a cherry picked narrative. Anyone would think that it was only the British that practised Imperialism and Cecil Rhodes was their Hitler. "Erase" is a strawman.
+Samchocolate11 I think that as long as students take money from Rhodes, then the statue should remain. They can go and tell every freshman the history of the man, but Rhodes is a part of the school's history and impacting future students. I don't get why people think that if a statue exists then people are worshiping it.
***** If they get to choose a replacement, you'll end up with some minor player from history chosen not because of their accomplishments or legacy (Rhodes legacy in this context is the Scholarship), but rather for their physical attributes because diversity. 1:17:48 This girl says something that everyone should take note of. _"I'm from Ethiopia and I go to Oriel college, I have never identified as black, before I came here, to Oxford......"_ It begs the question, why do you make the distinction now? If the goal is to eliminate distinctions by physical characteristics, why use them at all as your identity. If we ask why they want Rhodes removed, it will come down to arguments of white. Instead of eliminating institutionalised racism, they are just creating their own variation on the theme.
Ntokozo Qwabe has gained notoriety by bullying a waitress in a Cape Town cafe and gloating about it on social media. Charming behaviour from an Oxford University student and a Rhodes scholar. His post on Facebook was as follows: "We are out at ObzCafe … and the time for the bill comes. Our waitress is a white woman. I ask … what the going rate for tips/gratuity is in these shores. They look at me very reluctantly and they say 'give me the slip‚ I'll sort that out'. I give them the slip.They take a pen & slip in a note where the gratuity/tip amount is supposed to be entered. The note reads in bold: "WE WILL GIVE TIP WHEN YOU RETURN THE LAND". The waitress comes to us with a card machine for the bill to be sorted out. She sees the note & starts shaking. She leaves us & bursts into typical white tears (like why are you crying when all we've done is make a kind request? lol!)."
There was a lot made of this incident and a lot of criticism of a not very pleasant man. Neither was Rhodes a very pleasant man. Both are products of their time. Neither is able to influence the problems we face in our country. One because he is dead the other because he is not really intere sted.
+AminTheMystic - what I've learnt from this debate is that Rhodes was a racist and then he repented of that. Or perhaps you think that once a racist, always a racist? That there is no redemption? And even to suggest that there is redemption is racist?
Adam Adams although that was an incoherent rant, i'll clarify by saying i didn't mean travel and wealth, i meant colonialism and plundering. read the history of literally any continent except europe if you have the aptitude, after that there really isn't reason for discussion.
I am black and this notion, around the 1 hour, 7 minute mark, that you can go to the UK, the heart of it's elite culture at Oxford, and not expect to be Westernized is completely ridiculous. Come on! If you don't want to be Westernized, stay in your own bloody country (I'm not speaking about Black Brits born and bred in the UK)! Western universities are going to perpetuate Western culture and we should expect no less...yes, you can push them to be more diverse but you are living in a fantasy land if you expect them to completely abandon who they are. Yes, Oxford is an extremely elitist institution that draws heavily from England's elite private schools. Can they find a way to admit more non-whites? Probably. I just think that we black people are a bit schizophrenic at times. We scream that things in Africa are backwards, money and land has been stolen, etc. yet we all clamor to go to the West and expect them to just give back to us what they stole. This world is cruel and doesn't work like that. Btw, the short black guy on the panel is extremely rude. You can make your point without being rude especially to people who are older than you. That's not how my mother raised me...sad display here, I must say.
Disappointing quality of argument. I wish Christopher Hichens were still alive. He would have had something meaningful to say. Results of the vote: 245 ayes and 212 noes
+Rob J The problem was that the side against the motion were just not that invested in defending their position. They deserved to lose. They should have attacked the undemocratic, and unprincipled, nature of the RMF movements both in South Africa and in Britain. At one stage, the people on the right were simultaneously claiming that the issue of Rhodes at UCT should serve as an example, and that the Oxford situation should not be compared to other statues. I can't believe their opponents let that slip by unchallenged. The movement is also not interested in engaging voices opposed to the removal. They "noplatform", insult, bully, harass and intimidate people to shut them up, and then complain when Patten suggested they were behaving in an undemocratic way. He did not say that they should leave if they don't like the statue; he said they should leave if they do not believe in an environment that encourages and tolerates robust academic debate. Unfortunately, there was none of that quality present in this video. I could have taken on all three and their nonsense.
+Rob J Honestly I don't think he'd mind being dead for this. The grand issues of the time were once discussed. Apparently the greatest issue facing the World today is some twats statue being offensive. All perspective has been lost.
I thought I was the only one disappointed. Read an interesting article about it. Certainly a different perspective lefeebs.blogspot.com/2016/02/navigating-waters-of-humanity.html
And this history is written by the winners... Read “the last will and testament of Cecil Rhodes” and you’ll discover how the new world order was created in it’s modern form.
Removing someone's statue doesn't constitute "writing them out of history." We'll keep plenty of material about Rhodes in the textbooks, we won't write him out. We'll just talk about what an evil piece of shit he was. His shitty legacy will be remembered, don't you worry.
@@travishylton6976 Bringing a person's race into something where it wasn't mentioned or is irrelevant, implying they must think a thing because they're white. Hmmm, I think you are a little bit racist there 'black boy'.
As a former student and Oxford Union member, this university is oppressive to students on many levels and the worst part of it is they students don't have recourse.
Maybe the first speaker would prefer to hold the debate in Antarctica. "Spaces" in the world are not "designed" for each person to be comfortable every single moment. I love how people leave their country, go to another one, and demand that IT change to suit THEM.
it's funny because that is exactly what the colonisers did in south africa, and the rest of Africa. they came to our country and demanded land and minerals, which their offspring are still beneficiaries to.
Head Trauma I think not, to Africans Rhodes was a terrorist. He was the aggressor against many peoples. If we are moving on globally why do want to place him on a pedestal.
That’s because you never studied rhodes’s legacy obviously. Most the people here in favor of the fall of Rhodes bairly know the history I imagine, they just focus on the racism of black people rather the racism against all people. Rhodes desire for the destruction of Germany particularly enough to start ww1.
I agree. What is it with people these days that complain that a place is not majority black. Are they really saying that there should be no majority white spaces anymore and if they are they are automatically racist.
Are y'all dumb or what? This is about South Africa where whites are the minority yet hold majority of wealth and about this particular school where they still aren't the majority yet hold the majority of positions.
So an African student takes advantage of a scholarship to a top university in a foreign country and then demands that the university makes changes to the building facade. Fucking outrageous.
Sorry, didn't know that taking a scholarship and being a university student meant not voicing opinions, nor standing against the commemoration of such behaviours of the past xo
Rhodes statue in Oxford, in its specific place, indicates as much about the context of his era as the statue itself. Almost all who argued for or against its removal or displacement did give their interpretation of what the statue and its specific positioning relative to other historically significant figures meant to signify, or does signify. The reason why Rhodes, unlike Hitler, still stands today also tells a story about the subsequent years after its erection. This too is part of history, and so would be its removal, but once removed all previous history is denied its actual contribution in both positive and negative terms, which in a sense is to write over history and to place the views and opinions of one party above all those that preceded them or those who oppose them. Saying leaving it in place serves to reinforce what is seen as representing the unjust, is not to deal with history but arguing to destroy it. If the Pyramids represent the totalitarian and oppressive rule of slave holding rulers whose superiority were both enforced and memorialized, then should not we destroy them as symbols of injustice? How long do we let stand a symbol before it becomes a legitimate part of history? How far do we go back to delegitimize those that made history? Spain, and many other affected countries, can equally demand of France the demolition of memorials and representation of Napoleon to symbolically account for his crimes. Doing so would extinguish the memory entombed in these artifacts and structures, blinding ourselves to the facts history is comprised of.
Rhodes was a prominent figure and had a significance to a small group of people. I suggest reading Tragedy and Hope “A history of the world in our time” and The Anglo-American Establishment by a professor called Carroll Quigley.
To the Oxford Union, I have long enjoyed your debates posted on here, but I was compelled to comment having watched the first 20 minutes of this one. Why have you changed the format of the debate? The informal setting looks shabby, the brief statements dumb down the debate, and the whooping and cheering of the audience is vacuous. Worst of all the speakers were, in my view, very poor indeed (Professor Nigel Biggar excepted). It depresses me to see this at one of the UKs oldest and most esteemed universities, particularly in light of what has gone before. I do hope you review the changes and revert to the previous format. Stuart Bailey
Completely agree. I don't think this debate was particularly intelligent. No-one is even discussing exactly why Oxford has a white majority. It is assumed that racism is the problem but there are several factors that contribute to deciding whether one gets into Oxford or not (student or faculty). We cannot be sure it is institutionalised racism without looking at this issue closer.
I'm an Afrikaner. I hold no love for Rhodes (different discussion), however I also know that one cannot remove ones history because one doesn't like it. These symbols are not just there to exhalt or adore, but also to serve - as warnings.
Weet jy, ek voel ons het "die pot mis geskiet". Moet nie misverstaan nie, ek stem saam dat ons meer "Afrika" standbelde benodig. Ons mense...AL ons mense moet 'n plek in ons openbare spasies he. Maar ek weet nie of die pad waarop ons tans is, die regte pad is nie. Ek dink ons prioriteite moet van standbelde ensv. af geskyf word, na werkloosheid...opvoeding...die toestand van ons hospitale. Ek meen, ek dink aan die "rural" mense van die Oos-Kaap....die Noord-Kaap en Vrystaat onder andere - dink jy dat hulle 'n korreltjie stof omgee oor standbelde? Ek glo nie. Ons mense is honger, hulle sit sonder werk en huise...hulle het nie die luksheid om oor die k*k te bekommer nie. #mytweesent :-)
Peter-John de Kock Die gespraak oor standbelde gee vir rampokers in die poletieke gebied 'n geleenthuid om punte in die verkiesing te score. Ons skyf elke standbeeld in die wereld en ons sit nogsteeds met probleme van armoedighuid, misdaad etc. Stem 100% saam met jou. As Suid Afrikaners hulle probleme will oorkom dan moet ons ophou om oor mebels te fokus.
I find it interesting that Mr Qwabe accepts a Rhodes scholarship and then wantes to take down Rhodes statue, surely this is hypocrisy of the worst sort?
99IronDuke and in what way is he being hypocritical ....?? If I may ask?!!! .....was it really Rhodes money ???!! Sometimes I thought that people from western countries are smarter but I think it's the opposite.....when u come to my house and steal my diamonds and gold and coal and money and make me and my children to work in slave labour for free for u to get the minerals in my house to be dug up so u can take them to ur wife the queen of England and tell her that u did a great job in stealing my stuff and then years later ur desscendants and trustees with all the shame and guilt surrounding them decide that u did a bad thing to steal from my house and then decide to give my grandchildren a few moneys off what u stole from me to go to school in form of scholarships so they get an education that u deprived me of or from their ancestors ....how does that make grand children hypocrites ??!! On the other side do you think that a thief like Rhodes was prepared to pay back all that he stole from Africa ??!!! Let's be clear all the students receiving these scholarships it is not that the Rhodes trustees or Rhodes is doing them a favor , it's not free money they are getting in terms of education , it's the money theirs ancestors and people worked hard for but were never paid. They have a right to it and I mean the non white British people only have the right to those scholarships especially those from southafrica and Zimbabwe Where Rhodes stole enormously from our people from Africa . Okay let his trustees that award the scholarships cancel the scholarships of black African students , but PAY back the money, the diamonds , the gold .....and whatever the colonial governments stole from Africa and we see how much Africa will get back in return to what it's equivalent today of what was stolen from Africa ......., It will be much much more more than what the amounts received in scholarships is. It is the same money and big amounts of wealth that was stolen from other countries and continents around the world , that ur British Royal family is still surviving on today in this century , to the extent that non of ur British royals have to go to work or actually do any job that is termed as a real job, of which left many societies poor around the world , so that ur British royal family can be rich today and don't have to work or for any of them to compete for a scholarship to any university later on even want to attain higher education as it well known that not so many members of ur Royal family are highly educated except for a few who have or may have honorary degrees that they never had to step in classes to attain ....., so ridiculous. And I repeat , it is our stolen Money, stolen diamonds , stolen gold, stolen coal and hard slave labour that our children are being paid for with them to study at Oxford. The scholarships are not a gift from Rhodes or his trustees or free in any way , it's a way of actually feeling guilty and shame for stealing from poor nations, African people and subjecting them to inhuman things he did to them. The Africans deserve that scholarship money bse they own it . .....It is our wealth that was stolen from our ancestors and them. If our ancestors ,our people , our countries and our societies had been paid for their hard labour and for all the minerals and wealth that were stolen from Africa , they would have been able to send theirs generations and generations to schools and going to Oxford wouldnt be a problem since the funds to help do so would be available in our parents inheritances .
Claire Nabulime Your comment is a meme and way to long to waste time on. White man didn’t enslave you. Blacks did. Whites (Dutch merchants) just bought them. Let’s make that clear. And yeah it was Rhodes plan lmao
I doubt any of the panelists have any idea what Alfred Milner and Cecil Rhodes wanted. Again, Read “the last will and testament of Cecil Rhodes” and you’ll discover how the new world order was created in it’s modern form.
Yes it is, the gentleman on the far left managed to utter a whole string of lies without any show of repulse in himself. He’s either very good at hiding his conscience or he’s plainly dumb.
With all due respect Prof. Richard Drayton you are wrong on the part of Black people not getting scholarships in South Africa from Rhodes. During the height of Apartheid , my great-uncle Richard Rive a black person ( A South African, he had a West-Indian father (don't know the country sorry) and Cape Coloured mother)) received a D.Phil at Oxford during 1974. He must at least have started in 1971. Professor Krish Baruth-Ram (A South African of Indian descent) graduated in 1966 and started in 1963. Both their lives changed for the better and my great - uncle grew up in abject poverty.
Read “the last will and testament of Cecil Rhodes” and you’ll discover how the new world order was created in it’s modern form. Besides apartheid and the boar wars, Rhodes was also responsible for ww1...
Read “the last will and testament of Cecil Rhodes” and you’ll discover how the new world order was created in it’s modern form. Rhodes was never close to a hero, he is responsible for apartheid, the boar war, and World War fucking One.
@@thewhizzard6022 I understand that he was a precursor of apartheid and the Boer War. But World War I? I don't think so. Austria, Russia, and Germany started World War I.
Ntokozo is the privileged son of a rich and powerful South African who destroyed Mandela's marriage by his adultery with Winnie Mandela/ Ntokozo, far from being a 'victim' represents the epitome of power and privilege among the black 'nomenclatura' of South Africa - the privileged ANC apparatchiks.
Tearing down the Rhodes statue is but a short step from the burning of books. It makes no sense to evaluate the conduct of any person by today's standards and then to try and revise history accordingly. If you are offended by the presence of the Rhodes statue at Oxford, you are free to apply to admission to another institution of higher learning like Khartoum of Harare.
Awful arguments from both sides really. The simple fact remains that it should stand and continue to stand as, more than simply an individual, it should be seen as the locus of many great questions: indeed, how do we contextualize history? Do men have to be ethically and morally impeachable by all present and future generations to be considered great? Is it right to try and airbrush out the less savoury parts of the past? Unfortunately by burying the statue I fear we may be burying these questions, and simply trying to whitewash over the cracks and flaws in our collective history. It's good that the statue has encouraged debate, and hopefully it will in generations to come.
The people who might not be aware, 95% of all Banks are owned by former colonial powers including most of the big businesses in transport. The modern economy as we know it is western. To date companies such Barclays Bank cannot disclose the extent of their involvement and profit accruing from human trafficking. If it was not for this enterprise international banking would be none existant. The real subject worthy of study and pursuit pertaining to most of the issues around this subject is Economic history. Unfortunately, a lot of the great houses, institutions of learning associated with old money are implicated. It has been said that King Leopold of Belguim was so jealous of his British cousins that he went to the Congo and committed his atrocities. During his life he was very unpopular, he begged that his funeral would be unevenful. He was denied this. The true scale of his exploit recorded are not accessible to the public.
This would have been a far better opening statement from the supposed defenders of Rhodes. "The topic that you were asked here to debate tonight is "Must Rhodes Fall?". If you wish to conflate it with matters of identity politics, the representation of blacks in the faculty and student body, the legacy of colonialism and apartheid, then perhaps this debate is not the place for you. Now, let's address the question in a principled manner. It seems to me that your demand that Rhodes "must" fall is rooted in an attitude that is, at its heart, an undemocratic and authoritarian one. Oxford University has appropriate channels for students to exercise their political rights, and airing their grievances, in a place where ideas like the ones you have mentioned can be explored and debated in a civil way. By resorting to protests, chanting and insulting those opposed to your ideas, you have renounced such legitimate processes and therefore the right to demand that Rhodes must fall. Furthermore, if the administration is to fold to your tactics, it sets a dangerous precedent, not for going after the next statue, but for the next group of students that feels sufficiently aggrieved to abandon legitimate student politics and embark on the same course of action as we have seen this movement undertake. In an effort to impose their view of the world in general and history in particular, Rhodes must fall is going to open a 'Pandora's Box' of disorder and chaos in student politics at Oxford. It is for these reasons that Rhodes must not fall. Thank you."
I live in Oxford so have followed this issue closely. The most disturbing part was when one of the speakers called for "positive discrimination" otherwise her daughter would not be able to attend Oxford. The problem is, as a white heterosexual male, it would also mean that my daughter could NOT. It's scary that people actually think that doesn't matter because of our "privilege!". I personally don't believe that WHM people are privileged and we haven't been for decades, but hypothetically, even if we were: There are no specific goals or objectives to PS, no sunset clauses. For all we know PS could go on indefinitely, to the point where all WHM people are enslaved and in concentration camps or even DEAD. You can't fight injustice by trying to cancel it out with another piece of injustice. It doesn't work; all you get is a double dose of injustice.
+Mr Black I don't think it makes any difference. This issue is very similar to the recent one about the attacks on the history and flag of the Deep South in the USA. It engenders a dangerous delusion: that WHM people occupy a place of unique evil in the world, both in history and modern society. WHM people are "privileged" although nobody can define exactly in what way we are so. We are "Racists!", "rapists!", "fascists!" and "homophobes!", although again, how and why? I think it's a part of cultural Marxism, a form of mind control designed to mess with our heads. I mean ALL our heads, white, black, gay, straight, male, female.
+Ben Thejrporter its opression of whites. but really the zionist jews are behind it. youtube search 'racial agenda for the twentieth century' by israel cohen.
Ben Thejrporter And I agree 100% with what you've written above. No discrimination is "positive" or desirable. It should be on merit regardless of people's ethnic background,gender,sexual orientation,etc.
These people that want the statue removed are absolutely absurd. "Abused by the Chancellor"?? I daresay that anyone who gets an entire debate, filmed and then published publicly is hardly being "silenced" or "abused". These people claim that people don't really notice or learn from statues, but that somehow they are simultaneously sending messages to the public who ostensibly knows nothing about them? Perhaps those that wish to make the argument for removing it, should have to present their side of the debate sans any of the benefits they enjoy due to the person they so demonize. Get out of the hall, and off the campus - and make your debate point from there, before you pretend that you aren't benefiting from that which you're decrying. "Those who do not know their history are doomed to repeat it."
Oxford isn't Africa. It's Oxford. If you want Africa for Africans, stay in Africa. If you want to work with as opposed to against other people, do so. Otherwise stay at home. It's patently absurd how people think they can insult you in exchange for a reconciliatory handout.
For a student living in Oxford, I would like to go to one of these rallies and just tell them to stop being so PC and accept the fact that you can't erase history. Oxford has been around for centuries and you want to take down one of it's values now? A minority of megaphones just need to learn to fit in, rather than trying to make everything else fit to them. This censorship of history to fit a minority is just an excuse to destroy another former culture, rather to let it co-exist with other cultures we're lucky to even let in. It's still racism to take something from a white originated element of a culture. You take a bit of our culture, you take away something you'll probably benefit from.
+Mattuiop What grates me is that there are no working class people in that audience. Do any of these people know what living conditions were like for the working class in Great Britain during the same period as Rhodes? All I see is privilege students, black/white/coloured, supporting a 'racist institute' by attending the university in the first place! If you view Oxford as a racist institute then why on earth would you support it and take scholarships from it?
No one is trying to erase history - history exists in archives, libraries, books and journals. What needs erasing is pride in a nasty piece of history. Almost all national and political history is a source of great shame, not pride.
@@ArthurKaletzky they are. Just look at what they are doing on archive dot net, censorship of important historical books, and Netflix shows that claim to be historically accurate and educational but change the race of the major players to give the illusion that britian is simultaneously has a "racist" history and a "diverse" one in the next breath.
@@mattuiop I'm confused. 1. Since when is Netflix, an entertainment medium, an academic authority of any kind? 2. A culture can be both diverse and deeply racist. The British Raj in India e.g. 3. Why should history, overwhelmingly a disgusting and tedious horror show, be a valued part of any culture? It's like making an altar or pagan idol out of a shitstool. Philosophy is IMO a far better foundation.
@@ArthurKaletzky 1. Isn't it obvious? Netflix isn't the only culprit. Ann Boleyn being a blatant Example of writing the ethnic British out of their own history. 2. 99.9% of the history of the British Isles was genetically North Western European. Colonial and maritime British history was mainly from the British expanding to those other cultures. Bare in mind that these former colonies aren't being ethnically taken over today unlike what is happening in the UK today ironically. 3. The point of learning history is to objectively not only look at its mistakes, but recognise and be proud of the achievements of your people, and gather an understanding what has to be preserved for future generations to advance upon.
This is just political point scoring and not anything do with Rhodes. Students must learn if they are not happy there are many other universities they could attend. Also I have ASD and the last time I was in the Bodleian I was treated with nothing but respect. This is an attack on tradition and nothing more.
+99IronDuke Never mind European professors... how many European students from economically deprived areas are at Nairobi University with free scholarships (who also demand statues of the person that gave them the free scholarship be removed because they think the person they accepted the free scholarship from is racist and the university they agreed to attend is a racist institute... hypocrisy)
HitManHey So how many Black African came to Europe to steal its wealth? Who paid for those free places? The fucking Africans! It is their money. Twats are always easy to counter argue. I can kick your hole till the kingdom comes! - - Incidentally... most money has actually gone to Whites and not to Blacks. But don't let facts hit you in the face.
HitManHey Lol! You are completely confused. Why do you think I should fight for anyone? Why? What the fuck has the British Great Unwashed got to do with anything? You are completely fucked up in the head. You are thick and stupid and uneducated. - - Look what this was about... and you turned it around to make out that "Whites" are the real victims. Whites playing victims is called racism. This was about Rhodes... not the White Working Classes. And the fact that it was Africans whose money went to Rhodes Scholarship. Who benefits? Mainly Whites do... Tony Abbot? Billy Clinton? - - "Incidentally... most money has gone to the 1%ers" Yes it does. That is how Capitalism works. And? You unoriginal fuck even copied my words! Dear god! - - "It's their wealth because it falls within their national boarders" GB was built during colonial era and vast wealth from outside... and now that has gone slowly it will find its balance with rise of nations like India and South Korea and many others.
+HitManHey Europeans own the mines and the wild animals, including the most fertile land, the entire tourism offering. Most of the land around Cecil Rhodes railroad was surveyed and owned by them, through the pact or charter that became the constitution of most of these countries. They give independence to them if they respected property rights meaning the land accrued by British nationals. The constitution for all these countries was a standard template for all of them. This is why the like Nelson Mandela are now consider traitors to the cause. Most of the Africans who sat at the negotiating table during this period were Knighted including Robert 'Uncle Bobb'. Indicating that they are servants to the Crown, something which is illegal under the US constitution because truly where does your loyalty lie?
Amazing it took until the 6th speaker we actually had any facts. As others have commented and will comment, if you take Rhodes down you must lose all the Rhodes Scholarships. You don't like Rhodes, you don't get his money. Simple.
+NEIL DEGVILLE - really? Were you actually listening to the first four speeches? I heard lots of facts eg. Rhodes's contemporaries considered him a rogue if not a criminal, the statue was part of a campaign to launder his reputation?
+Petra Smith As someone who studies history I already knew something about Mr Rhodes. I didn't need four people with a politically correct agenda to tell me what kind of man he was. He was a man of his time. You can't put a 21st Century mindset on a 19th Century person. Yes, he was unscrupulous. A chancer. But for a dreamer he actually achieved. He changed the world and that never happens without terrible things happening along the way. Publish books, make films, protest against him by all means. But these people are wanting to erase history. They want to control history by erasing the bits they don't like. Sorry, not having it. Face up to it. The boy hates what he represents, how can he take the RHODES Scholarship? Says everything about that person.
@@ANGLORUSSIANCZ If you study history, you must know that history exists in archives, libraries, books and journals, not in statues. Statues are about PRIDE in history, and political and military history is always a source of shame, with tiny bright intervals like the Great French Revolution. Karl Deutsch: "a nation is a group of people united by mistaken beliefs about their past". That's what statues do, and that's what must erased.
The proponents of the RMF position are way out of their depth in advancing a case for bringing down Rhodes statue. Not only is their argument unintelligible, but as it turns out especially with some of their statistics and historical sources, a great deal of flaw subsists. Prof Beinart's caution of Ntokozo's use of history is quite apt. By the way, the young man appears somewhat discourteous! Overall, the points from the opposition are logical and compelling. I was devoid of any predilection at the start of the polemic, but I leave the debate with the conviction that it's gratuitous to advocate for Rhodes statue to be removed. May I also add that the opponents of the motion are well-informed and well-intentioned. Good debate!
+AminTheMystic What you read is an objective assessment of the debate. Is objectivity also alien to us? Does it equate to subservience to "white racism"? I really don't understand what your rant is about. Yes, Rhodes was racist but he was a product of his time. Many historical figures were racist, tribalistic and nepotic. Should we now condemn them all? You need to extricate yourself from the shackles of emotional disability and paranoia. Isn't it even cowardly, anti-intellectual and plainly debasing for us to declare war on effigies and statues? We have a problem with Rhodes, but instead of facing him we are challenging a statue of him. Please don't ridicule us. Africa needs to progress intellectually...Thanks for your time! And BTW, I am no coconut...
+Uthman Akeel Please reply within the parameters of erecting a Hitler Statue somewhere at an African Institution as a model of efficiency to be taught to African students.
My dream is to become a Professor. It is a long and tough road. Many Black people simply can't afford to be permanent students and after a certain degree they tend to support their families. There is simply not enough funding from where I come from to fund a part time student and most can't afford the university fees. The fact that there are few black people in academia is not racism but more on financial strain.It takes 20 years to become a professor. I hope they know that.
+Farrel Sidney Wentzel I am touched by this honest and deep statement, so far from from the self-serving violence which underlied Ntokoso Quabe's interventions, among others. Ask Ntokoso to help you, rather than going after a statue. And ask him in 50 years if he has done so, and thinks he may deserve a statue himself.
His dad is a prominent politician in South Africa and I know his dad preaches socialism but drives a R1 million car and a . ( Top of the Range Range Rover) while their supporters can't even buy bread which is R10. ( 1 British pound is now R23) I know the likes of him and they just want impossible demands. I will never ask the likes of them for help. Thanks don't worry I shall make it :)
This whole debate is absurd. Rhodes is being judged completely out of his historical context. No one returned to Professor Biggar's point that Durban International Airport is named after King Shaka Kasenzangakona, a ruthless African warrior who created an empire through a process of annihilation and assimilation. After the death of his mother Nandi, a grief ridden Shaka carried out the genocide of his own people, and yet an airport has been named after him! However, I recognise that to some people Shaka is also remembered as a great warrior, who united his people and developed a strong African polity. The cretinous members of the RMF movement need to realise that history and its characters are much more nuanced.
+Mal Preece He is not. I don't support the removal of the statue, but to pretend Rhodes wasn't deeply controversial at the time is to perpetuate a lie - as Richard Drayton pointed out perfectly effectively.
What an ignorant asshole you are. Read “the last will and testament of Cecil Rhodes” and you’ll discover how the new world order was created in it’s modern form.
Shaka wasn’t responsible for ww1, Cecil Rhodes and England we’re responsible. Read “the last will and testament of Cecil Rhodes” and you’ll discover how the new world order was created in it’s modern form.
95% of the general public under the age of 60 have never heard of Cecil Rhodes. Are we now to burn books that mention him? He is dead, South Africa is free and independent. More important to me would be, how to use the resources of the nation to educate, feed, house, provide healthcare, improve business and welfare for all. The issue of Rhodes and the statue is irrelevant to the modern needs of Africa. Energies would be better used to get a rational government that will improve the lives of all it's people.
Read “the last will and testament of Cecil Rhodes” and you’ll discover how the new world order was created in it’s modern form. Besides apartheid and the boar wars, Cecil Rhodes was responsible for world war fucking one! You are a sheep
Ha-ha-haaa!!! I love this debate. I'm of the opinion that Rhodes statue in Britain should not fall because it represents what the black people is Africa say: "Britain colonized South Africa, Zimbabwe etc" And as far as I'm concerned his statue has a right to exist in England, where he came from. But it should not be permitted to exist in public spaces of Africa, except perhaps in "war criminals and colonizers museums. Britain is inclusively regarded as a racist country, and Oxford, because of people like Rhodes, is subsequently regarded as racist, unless it proves itself by a radical social change like anti racism etc. At least this is what I think...his statue should exist because he helped in the establishment Oxford University. It's true the onus is on Oxford to set up its own legacy. As an African, I can admit, Oxford is the only British university I new since my childhood in South Africa. All statues of Europeans should be welcomed in Europe, but not in Africa. Black university students should fight their way through white supremacy in their own terms, not by removing white historical statues who bear witness to white racism and discrimination of students from minority groups and foreign black students and academics. Rhodes did all his exploits in Africa for the benefit of his people, first the English and then, the Boers of South Africa, Namibia, and Zimbabwe (South West Africa, and Rhodesia, respectively).
A very disappointing result, which flies in the face of common sense and has worrying implications for free speech in one of our most respected universities. However, for the Oxford Union to display such naive lunacy is not uncommon. In the 1930s, with European fascism on the ascendancy, the Union voted overwhelmingly in support of the proposition that it would never fight for its country. Less than the a decade later, the country saw why this was such a naive and foolish stance. Similarly, I think most of the country already sees why airbrushing historical figures you don't like out of history, is naive and foolish.
Why do u expect any different? Read “the last will and testament of Cecil Rhodes” and you’ll discover how the new world order was created in it’s modern form.
If I had a vote. I'd vote for it to stay. As a historian I hate to have artifacts destroyed. However, if I was a student, every morning I would go to the statue and throw an egg in the face of Rhodes. I'd force people to support Rhodes to have to spend a minute every day cleaning it. Now that's a compromise!
3% of the population can "demand" higher than statistical representation? Having lived in several countries it amazes me that in the U.S. and the U.K. there seems to be such a strange insistence that the majority MUST recognize and respect differing cultures and peoples as having a place equal to the majority. Respect for the different makes sense, but ending up in a situation where every small group can demand, and receive alterations to the majority (and at times the vast majority) rather than within a smaller community of like peoples ) is simply stunning. If I am in a minority position I would not live where I did not receive equal legal rights, but the idea that I, as a member of a minority can demand alterations to the main culture simply because something offends me is just a disaster waiting to happen. This particular event rather depressed me, both in terms of format ( I do so prefer the standing commentary to the seated dialogue) and the lack of well reasoned, factually based positions.
🤦♂️ people clapping at anything that comes from the left side panel is embarrassing. They don't even seem to be listening to what they are saying, they just simply clap as they already know that they represent the viewpoint they already hold.
While I don't doubt their sincerity, I feel like the Rhodes Must Fall side are arguing from a position of this statue being 'the straw that broke the camels back'; it's not so much the statue in itself, it's more to do with the climate of racial prejudice in general. If they didn't experience racism they probably wouldn't look twice at the statue. However, as much as I sympathise with them, I'm not sure tearing down statues that hold significant historical value just because they don't fit our current sensibilities isn't a precedent we should want to set. We simply aren't going to find modern morales in historical figures. Should we tear down Churchill statues because he was racist? Should we tear down Henry VIII statues because he was misogynist? Should we tear down Cromwell because he offends Irish-people? Perhaps in the future people will debate on whether they should tear down a statue from today because the figure supported the barbarically cruel meat industry, which may in the future be considered just as bad.
Read “the last will and testament of Cecil Rhodes” and you’ll discover how the new world order was created in it’s modern form. Cecil is responsible for apartheid and the boar wars, but more importantly, ww1. Fuck Churchill, fuck Cecil, please raze oxford to the ground.
Don't look to history to find values, look to history to learn mistakes. Good news that the statue stays, we don't celebrate everything he did, but it's important to learn his story.
Removing the statue does not mean the money from the Rhodes trust should stop. Indeed, Rhodes owes that money to the indigenous students of South Africa. If the administrators of the Rhodes Trust unilaterally decide to stop the money, they should be replaced with people more suited to the task.
They change the debate to the lack of diversity - ie not many black professors etc, but why ? Not enough educated ones it would appear. It also obvious that their grasp of African history is miniscule and could be written on the back of a postage stamp.
How? When he's taking money that originally belongs to his own South African people. His reason made a lot of sense. From a Ship of Theseus perspective. Genius honest answer he gave
They talk about the statue not being noticed and there being no education because of it. But if you remove it then there would be absolutely ZERO chance of any education or acknowledgment. Their logic is odd.
I think the debate was one way, we need more of white students and white teachers in predominantly black schools as well. but it was a nice debate as well.
One thing I struggle to get my head around is how Oxford is presented, throughout the debate, as both a desirable/magnificent and undesirable/appalling institution. Is it not the very things that makes it appalling that are contributing to its being desirable and vice versa.
What about statues of non-whites who also were responsible of colonialism, slavery, genocide etc, who still have not been removed? What about the statues of Timur, a turkic-mongol conqureror who massacred, genocided and enslaved millions of indians, arabs, persians, armenians, georgians and europeans? Or what about the statues of Luis de Carvajal, a sephradic conquistador who conquored Northern Mexico and enslaved thousands of American Natives? Why haven't these statues been removed? Why are we just focusing on removing status of white slave traders and racists?
What a bunch of precious little darlings. One wonders what they are going to do when they encounter the 'real world.' Run off for a safe space I suppose.
Yep, they had this debate instead of discussing how Cecil Rhodes started ww1... Read “the last will and testament of Cecil Rhodes” and you’ll discover how the new world order was created in it’s modern form.
What was the purpose of Rhode statues? The reason why most people wanted to remove the statues of Rhode because they don't know or don't care about the purpose of the statue in school.
Thank you for allowing me to witness this debate. If, as I think, the viewing gives an insight to what is afoot in several (particularly American) universities, it worries me deeply. First of all, the ethnic frame into which the RMF would push this whole debate is worrying. Once such a frame is adopted, statistics can easily show that, for example, Chinese and other East and South-East Asians are massively rising throughout main world universities (their own and abroad) , as students and then as professors. This recent rise on the world scene is entirely due to their and their communities’ merit. As for students from the African continent, I worry that the best and brightest among them have not even made it to secondary school. They certainly did not make it to the chairs filled here by three students, so sure to be the worthy representatives of their peoples. Secondly, the “freezing and flattening” (when not fudging) of history, heralds the very opposite of an educated and educative approach. Why statues matter, in such contexts, is also because, far from a complex truth, they can be invested with simple labels and just as simply, at one stroke, demolished. Note that the initial move from Rhodes scholar N. Quabe was to disapprove of the comfortable space offered by the Oxford Union Society. The length and depth of human effort that it took for that building (in the wider sense) to be erected and to serve this purpose, was turned into an object of scorn. The best product of a civilizational process - a hall dedicated to debate, protected from hasty violence by an entire society’s fought-over values (free speech, self-questioning, inclusiveness as a goal) was put into question. This leads to my third point, the betrayal of democracy. The way in which both Quabe and Drayton thought well to add to their discourse base rudeness towards other speakers, is not to be taken lightly. The following may seem very disproportionate to our situation, but it is a warning: whether during the French Revolution or the Rwandan genocide (among countless examples), those most bent on debasing opponents were soon seen to… send heads rolling. (For the moment, some well-intentioned US university administrators have “merely” lost their jobs in similar contexts). The lack of any in-depth answer to the few true questions which were put to the RMF panelists (such as: should the statue go, while polls report 56% of Oxford students opposed) led naturally to Quabe’s concluding statement: those who would like to “like” and vote for what he unlikes, will be “taken over by History”. This uttering can be considered as a possibly true prediction, or, in a more menacing light, as a warning not to vote as one wishes. This debate (or let’s just say the session) had the merit of allowing the grievances of the motion’s proponents to be aired. My thanks go to the very few constructive, subtle and polite remarks put forward, including those by Professor Beinart .
It's easy, but it's shameful and cowardly, to judge and condemn a man who's been dead for 120 years by the confused moral standards of today. Doing so while enjoying the fruits of his great deeds is repulsively hypocritical. Indeed that is far worse than any moral shortcomings these people ascribe to Rhodes. No one could ever accuse Cecil Rhodes of hypocrisy, at least. Putting aside any urge to pass post-modern moral judgement on the man, one cannot deny his genius and his great achievements. My guess would be that not a one of the black members of this panel will ever return to Africa to use their education for the betterment of that mostly pitiable continent, as Rhodes did and strove so mightily to do for all his life. They are quite happy to remain in Britain and Europe where they can put the only thing of any value they have to offer on display, and the only distinction for which they will be recognized - their indignation from a sense of inherited victimhood. Curious why you don't see such hand-wringing panels comprised of other formally colonized races, such as Hindu Indians. I suppose those people are too busy making significant contributions in the fields of science, commerce, and technology...instead of crying on anyone who will give them a shoulder about events that occurred several generations ago.
I have compassion for those who feel and believe their demographic, has been marginalized. However as the Afrikaner has proven, minorities can generate self-actualization. The disenchanted must build their own institutions. Let them discover what they don't know, and realize their wishes are unreasonable and narrow minded.
Oh god, this is meant to be one of the best universities in the world! And it has turned into a politically correct shithole (atleast the ones that attends the Union debates). Good for Oxford standing up, and telling them how wrong they are, Rhodes achieved much in his career and whether you like it or not Black living standards were greater during Rhodes than when they were tribal. Someone needs to start a massive anti PC movement.
Interesting question @105:10, most of the time, we claim to be revolutionaries turn to be clueless of the way-forth; or what to implement to replace what we scorn
MAY THE PIGEON POOP BE CONTAINED IN THEIR WITLESS HEADS MY LORD Dear sir, calling all Oxford alumni - appreciate you are all busy but if you know of any Oxford alumni or anyone of interest could you possibly read and if useful pass on. This is a personal no budget campaign although I am retired BBC and am simply making contacts in the press and business. This WOKE BLM campaign in Oxford could spread with unforeseen consequences, and there may be a way to stop it before it becomes completely out of control. As a retired University lecturer, the debate about Rhodes college and the grounds around it, has overlooked something quite important. Rhodes’ college and the courtyards and gardens, as are many is a grade 1 listed building and is covered in law. Law supersedes political correctness and the demands of present students, who also fail to take into account once a member of a college always a member of the college and have they have not been consulted which in college rules they also have a vote on the issue. Sooner this lunacy stops before Nelsons statue is removed on the basis he sailed in a ship whose technology developed with the aid of the slave trade. Maybe someone should contact the council and planning officer - or the college could be looking at a hefty fine and court case. Historic vandalism should not be acceptable where-ever it occurs. As an aside I live in France and recently a similar group attempted to remove a statue of Napoleon France here the local mayor has real power - he dismissed them as #### lunatics pointing out that the whole of France from roads to taxes to sewers to architecture is all based on Napoleons efforts. Vile as it is was - slavery predates writing as far as we can ascertain is not a simplistic black white issue - pyramids remove them - Libyas ancient temples remove them - Bordeaux remove it - Barbary Pirates pardon them my god, Rome that has to come down. Let us fight back with wit, eloquence clear thinking and port swilling barristers. 100 of the same Rhodes students from the group that are protesting have their fees paid by the Rhodes fund which makes this even more bizarre. Regards Tony Adeney so far people have contacted oxford council conservation officer, english heritage, the PM, the Rhodes college, Rhodes alumni association, huffington post, sunday times but every email helps. We are also adding comments to youtube where appropriate. Have we forgotten anybody - the more influential the better.
The land on which the Univesity of Cape Town now stands was part of the original Groote Schuur Estate which Cecil John Rohes had bought and developed. He gave that land to the people of South Africa for the construction of the university. This land is positioned in the Western Cape which no black Africans can claim. As a South African, I am proud of our history and what Cecil John Rhodes did for South Africa and Southern Africa. Why are you bending or even listening to the wishes of people who are guests in the UK and have no claim to any positive development in South Africa? Africans should have no say in a British university, whether they like it or not.
Hello Oxford Union, I'd just like to thank you for uploading these videos.
I know that often these controversial videos receive criticism in the comments section, but personally I find them fascinating and incredibly valuable.
It's such a privilege to be able to look in on one of the greatest debating chambers in the world for free.
Please keep uploading all your debates and speeches.
Thank you very much.
+Oliver Brenman You're very welcome, we'll do our best!
What was the final vote statistic?
+HitManHey cause all blacks are racists
+HitManHey Indeed! It's not the way it works. In England ethnic minorities are given special protection. In South Africa, ehtnic minorities are actively persecuted. Affirmitave action was introduced in California two decades ago so that minority blacks and hispanics could achieve a pass with lower marks (it was abandoned shortly after as it just doesn't work!) - In South Africa, affirmative action was introduced so that the majority of the population could achieve a pass with a lower mark... How can this possibly benefit an emerging nation?
Further, I find the Nelson Mandella Childrens Fund a little hard to swallow seen as he directed the M.K. terrorist organisation from his cell on Robben Island - orchestrating the successful murders of dozens of innocent South African civilians... yet nobody calls for his statue to be removed?
Glaring double standards - and stupid liberal posturing by ill informed upstarts!
As you said, when asked for them to give up their Scholarships or refund any money taken in the past you will get a "tumbleweed" moment.... Once liberal guilt starts to hit the liberal in the pocket, it does tend to deflate somewhat!
+Matthew Wilkes "Further, I find the Nelson Mandella Childrens Fund a little hard to swallow seen as he directed the M.K. terrorist organisation from his cell on Robben Island - orchestrating the successful murders of dozens of innocent South African civilians... yet nobody calls for his statue to be removed?"Who did he order killed?
Next it will be Winston Churchill, who loved the British Empire and Commonwealth.
Take down Rhodes statue, but, if you do, then end all Rhodes Scholarships for non-British students at Oxford. Let us remember the Oxford Union of the 1930's that voted against fighting for King and Country, with Hitler and the Nazis in power in Germany...
+Uk Gamer Well so you say.
Churchill decimated the empire by entering the war. A war we didn't need to join.
+Connor D I might even agree with you to some degree, but this whole Rhodes thing is a BS argument, not based on British values.
+99IronDuke Agreed.
+99IronDuke British values mean different things to different people. Churchill should be criticised for his support of the Empire (and also praised for things he did well too).
Looking at the diversity of the audience, the statue of Rhodes as not detered foreign students from all over the world attending this place.
whose scholarships over 100 of them are paid for by the Rhodes fund how f#### up is that ..
'This space is not neutral' - I'll say.
What nonsense!
Remove all images of Cromwell because he was responsible for the deaths of 41% of the Irish population during his conquest. Censor yourself for one group and every other group will ask for the same treatment. Why should South African students be able to take down a statue and Irish students cannot. If you take down the statue you either create a double standard or you will end up taking down almost every statue.
+Padraig O'Connor if we are to look at history through a modern lense then everyone can be considered problematic
frankendeed69 Exactly. Can anyone think of a modern leader that is perfect? No? Why should we expect it from past leaders?
+Padraig O'Connor Censoring history because it's "offensive", guess these fuckheads never heard of "Who doesn't learn from history, will be doomed to repeat it", I guess they want slavery and shit again.
I'm from South Africa and agree. If you look at the universities here. They had a Rhodes Must Fall movement, whereby the statue of Rhodes was removed from The University of Cape Town. Ever since then problems have escalated dramatically at the Universities. This whole movement has brought problems of the past into our future, whereby radicals with ridiculous ideas think that since they managed to topple this statue, they can topple the system if their demands are not met. Something that started off being supposedly peaceful, has led to an avalanche of anarchy. As far as I'm concerned if these South Africans who are in ENGLAND are not happy, leave. Come back home and try enrich yourself here in a system where the Rhodes must Fall movement succeeded.
+Victor Vic If South Africans want to remove statues of Rhodes in their country then I have no problem with it. It's just an issue when you try to make another country conform to you, ie colonise them.
As an Oxfordian myself, I do wonder why these "black" students didn't stay in Africa for their studies when they deem Oxford to be such a structurally racist institution. I would not attend Tsighua in China if I deemed it structurally racist. I simply would not attend. Might it be something to do with self-interest on that part of these African students? Of course, impossible.
Very adequately explained by a number of the speakers. Call it entryism or infiltration if you like, but it's a tactic which is often effective.
As an African myself, I do wonder why Rhodes and those of his ilk did not stay in europe and came to Africa instead!To live amongst the very people they deemed inferior and in need of subjugation.
Funny how this was removed when it had 100% dislikes, then when it was re-uploaded it mysteriously had a majority of likes
So there is a statue of Efunroye Tinubu a notorious 19th C slave trader in Nigeria as well as a square named after her in Lagos, no one is campaigning for it to be torn down- funny that.
You cannot change history by demolishing artefacts of history.
You don't change the future by cherry picking from and misrepresenting history to suit your narrative.
The future may not look too kindly on your legacy, just as you do now to those of history's past.
They're not erasing history. They're choosing not to honour a despicable man. It's not as if all learning about Cecil Rhodes will suddenly cease.
+Samchocolate11
There definitely was a cherry picked narrative.
Anyone would think that it was only the British that practised Imperialism and Cecil Rhodes was their Hitler.
"Erase" is a strawman.
+Samchocolate11
I think that as long as students take money from Rhodes, then the statue should remain. They can go and tell every freshman the history of the man, but Rhodes is a part of the school's history and impacting future students. I don't get why people think that if a statue exists then people are worshiping it.
*****
If they get to choose a replacement, you'll end up with some minor player from history chosen not because of their accomplishments or legacy (Rhodes legacy in this context is the Scholarship), but rather for their physical attributes because diversity.
1:17:48 This girl says something that everyone should take note of.
_"I'm from Ethiopia and I go to Oriel college, I have never identified as black, before I came here, to Oxford......"_
It begs the question, why do you make the distinction now?
If the goal is to eliminate distinctions by physical characteristics, why use them at all as your identity.
If we ask why they want Rhodes removed, it will come down to arguments of white.
Instead of eliminating institutionalised racism, they are just creating their own variation on the theme.
+magottyk You do not "change history", you however can remake public space always and at any time.
Bloody hell the RMF panelists make a strong case. Wonderful speakers.
Ntokozo Qwabe has gained notoriety by bullying a waitress in a Cape Town cafe and gloating about it on social media. Charming behaviour from an Oxford University student and a Rhodes scholar.
His post on Facebook was as follows:
"We are out at ObzCafe … and the time for the bill comes. Our waitress is a white woman. I ask … what the going rate for tips/gratuity is in these shores. They look at me very reluctantly and they say 'give me the slip‚ I'll sort that out'. I give them the slip.They take a pen & slip in a note where the gratuity/tip amount is supposed to be entered. The note reads in bold: "WE WILL GIVE TIP WHEN YOU RETURN THE LAND". The waitress comes to us with a card machine for the bill to be sorted out. She sees the note & starts shaking. She leaves us & bursts into typical white tears (like why are you crying when all we've done is make a kind request? lol!)."
There was a lot made of this incident and a lot of criticism of a not very pleasant man. Neither was Rhodes a very pleasant man. Both are products of their time. Neither is able to influence the problems we face in our country. One because he is dead the other because he is not really intere
sted.
Y U lying? She told the truth. Any native could have said the same thing.
the whooping after every line from the rhodes must fall advocates tells you a lot abot the maturity of that position and its supporters
It does. They are right and correct. Denial that Rhodes was a racist is racism.
+AminTheMystic - what I've learnt from this debate is that Rhodes was a racist and then he repented of that. Or perhaps you think that once a racist, always a racist? That there is no redemption?
And even to suggest that there is redemption is racist?
+AminTheMystic _"Denial that Rhodes was a racist is racism."_ - yeah right, and the denial of the creation is creationism. Grow up!
+Adam Adams Europe went everywhere (and got rich!) 0_0
Adam Adams although that was an incoherent rant, i'll clarify by saying i didn't mean travel and wealth, i meant colonialism and plundering. read the history of literally any continent except europe if you have the aptitude, after that there really isn't reason for discussion.
would a Michael Jackson statue do?? since he was both Black and White.
@K L Clarify or GO FUCK yuhself!
No funny. Just racist and pathetic.
I am black and this notion, around the 1 hour, 7 minute mark, that you can go to the UK, the heart of it's elite culture at Oxford, and not expect to be Westernized is completely ridiculous. Come on! If you don't want to be Westernized, stay in your own bloody country (I'm not speaking about Black Brits born and bred in the UK)! Western universities are going to perpetuate Western culture and we should expect no less...yes, you can push them to be more diverse but you are living in a fantasy land if you expect them to completely abandon who they are. Yes, Oxford is an extremely elitist institution that draws heavily from England's elite private schools. Can they find a way to admit more non-whites? Probably. I just think that we black people are a bit schizophrenic at times. We scream that things in Africa are backwards, money and land has been stolen, etc. yet we all clamor to go to the West and expect them to just give back to us what they stole. This world is cruel and doesn't work like that. Btw, the short black guy on the panel is extremely rude. You can make your point without being rude especially to people who are older than you. That's not how my mother raised me...sad display here, I must say.
Disappointing quality of argument. I wish Christopher Hichens were still alive. He would have had something meaningful to say.
Results of the vote: 245 ayes and 212 noes
+Rob J The problem was that the side against the motion were just not that invested in defending their position. They deserved to lose. They should have attacked the undemocratic, and unprincipled, nature of the RMF movements both in South Africa and in Britain. At one stage, the people on the right were simultaneously claiming that the issue of Rhodes at UCT should serve as an example, and that the Oxford situation should not be compared to other statues. I can't believe their opponents let that slip by unchallenged. The movement is also not interested in engaging voices opposed to the removal. They "noplatform", insult, bully, harass and intimidate people to shut them up, and then complain when Patten suggested they were behaving in an undemocratic way. He did not say that they should leave if they don't like the statue; he said they should leave if they do not believe in an environment that encourages and tolerates robust academic debate. Unfortunately, there was none of that quality present in this video. I could have taken on all three and their nonsense.
+Rob J Honestly I don't think he'd mind being dead for this.
The grand issues of the time were once discussed.
Apparently the greatest issue facing the World today is some twats statue being offensive. All perspective has been lost.
I thought I was the only one disappointed. Read an interesting article about it. Certainly a different perspective lefeebs.blogspot.com/2016/02/navigating-waters-of-humanity.html
+Rob J The black lady on the right (our right) made some good points though.
+Rob J crying shame, I wish we could have those 20-30 extra years of hitch
11:54 "These voices were written out of history."
OH THE IRONY
And this history is written by the winners... Read “the last will and testament of Cecil Rhodes” and you’ll discover how the new world order was created in it’s modern form.
Removing someone's statue doesn't constitute "writing them out of history." We'll keep plenty of material about Rhodes in the textbooks, we won't write him out. We'll just talk about what an evil piece of shit he was. His shitty legacy will be remembered, don't you worry.
@@travishylton6976 what did he say?
@@travishylton6976 Bringing a person's race into something where it wasn't mentioned or is irrelevant, implying they must think a thing because they're white. Hmmm, I think you are a little bit racist there 'black boy'.
@@nervesconcord shut up “ Red Boy “
As a former student and Oxford Union member, this university is oppressive to students on many levels and the worst part of it is they students don't have recourse.
there is no need to debate Rhodes is an evil they must just remove the devil
Maybe the first speaker would prefer to hold the debate in Antarctica.
"Spaces" in the world are not "designed" for each person to be comfortable every single moment.
I love how people leave their country, go to another one, and demand that IT change to suit THEM.
+SilvanaDil I love the part where he says, "Our Demands!"
+SilvanaDil Perhaps Tunisia?
+Graham6762 Yeah,they have such a misplaced sense of their own entitlement,like everyone somehow owes them something.
it's funny because that is exactly what the colonisers did in south africa, and the rest of Africa. they came to our country and demanded land and minerals, which their offspring are still beneficiaries to.
+P.S. Lovell
Oh, please. Find me a country that has never done anything wrong other than mine (USA).
:D
They should demolish the Rhodes statue and replace it with one of Pol Pot for his great archievements in combating eyeseight problems.
This topic is ridiculous.
Head Trauma I think not, to Africans Rhodes was a terrorist. He was the aggressor against many peoples. If we are moving on globally why do want to place him on a pedestal.
Silly people crying about feelings rather than reality.
That’s because you never studied rhodes’s legacy obviously. Most the people here in favor of the fall of Rhodes bairly know the history I imagine, they just focus on the racism of black people rather the racism against all people. Rhodes desire for the destruction of Germany particularly enough to start ww1.
Read “the last will and testament of Cecil Rhodes” and you’ll discover how the new world order was created in it’s modern form.
@@embracecivility5624 source?
I don´t get it...so there is a very high percentage of white professors in a maturity white country? That makes a lot of sense
I agree. What is it with people these days that complain that a place is not majority black. Are they really saying that there should be no majority white spaces anymore and if they are they are automatically racist.
Are y'all dumb or what? This is about South Africa where whites are the minority yet hold majority of wealth and about this particular school where they still aren't the majority yet hold the majority of positions.
So an African student takes advantage of a scholarship to a top university in a foreign country and then demands that the university makes changes to the building facade. Fucking outrageous.
Sorry, didn't know that taking a scholarship and being a university student meant not voicing opinions, nor standing against the commemoration of such behaviours of the past xo
What's outrageous is that the university is keeping the statue of a thief and scoundrel in a place of honor.
On the first chaps point - doesn't the UCAS system rule out that sort of discrimination by hiding student names until an offer is given?
Rhodes statue in Oxford, in its specific place, indicates as much about the context of his era as the statue itself. Almost all who argued for or against its removal or displacement did give their interpretation of what the statue and its specific positioning relative to other historically significant figures meant to signify, or does signify.
The reason why Rhodes, unlike Hitler, still stands today also tells a story about the subsequent years after its erection. This too is part of history, and so would be its removal, but once removed all previous history is denied its actual contribution in both positive and negative terms, which in a sense is to write over history and to place the views and opinions of one party above all those that preceded them or those who oppose them.
Saying leaving it in place serves to reinforce what is seen as representing the unjust, is not to deal with history but arguing to destroy it. If the Pyramids represent the totalitarian and oppressive rule of slave holding rulers whose superiority were both enforced and memorialized, then should not we destroy them as symbols of injustice? How long do we let stand a symbol before it becomes a legitimate part of history? How far do we go back to delegitimize those that made history?
Spain, and many other affected countries, can equally demand of France the demolition of memorials and representation of Napoleon to symbolically account for his crimes. Doing so would extinguish the memory entombed in these artifacts and structures, blinding ourselves to the facts history is comprised of.
Rhodes was a prominent figure and had a significance to a small group of people. I suggest reading Tragedy and Hope “A history of the world in our time” and The Anglo-American Establishment by a professor called Carroll Quigley.
To the Oxford Union, I have long enjoyed your debates posted on here, but I was compelled to comment having watched the first 20 minutes of this one. Why have you changed the format of the debate? The informal setting looks shabby, the brief statements dumb down the debate, and the whooping and cheering of the audience is vacuous. Worst of all the speakers were, in my view, very poor indeed (Professor Nigel Biggar excepted). It depresses me to see this at one of the UKs oldest and most esteemed universities, particularly in light of what has gone before. I do hope you review the changes and revert to the previous format. Stuart Bailey
+Mr Black I agree, it shows what a dogmatic mob students are. Not befitting of an "elite" university...
+Stuart Bailey Biggar is a pompous, self-promoting, ass - here, as elsewhere.
Completely agree. I don't think this debate was particularly intelligent. No-one is even discussing exactly why Oxford has a white majority. It is assumed that racism is the problem but there are several factors that contribute to deciding whether one gets into Oxford or not (student or faculty). We cannot be sure it is institutionalised racism without looking at this issue closer.
Read “the last will and testament of Cecil Rhodes” and you’ll discover how the new world order was created in it’s modern form.
Read a book for once
I'm an Afrikaner. I hold no love for Rhodes (different discussion), however I also know that one cannot remove ones history because one doesn't like it. These symbols are not just there to exhalt or adore, but also to serve - as warnings.
Peter-John de Kock 100% Met jou op hierdie punt.
Weet jy, ek voel ons het "die pot mis geskiet". Moet nie misverstaan nie, ek stem saam dat ons meer "Afrika" standbelde benodig. Ons mense...AL ons mense moet 'n plek in ons openbare spasies he. Maar ek weet nie of die pad waarop ons tans is, die regte pad is nie. Ek dink ons prioriteite moet van standbelde ensv. af geskyf word, na werkloosheid...opvoeding...die toestand van ons hospitale. Ek meen, ek dink aan die "rural" mense van die Oos-Kaap....die Noord-Kaap en Vrystaat onder andere - dink jy dat hulle 'n korreltjie stof omgee oor standbelde? Ek glo nie. Ons mense is honger, hulle sit sonder werk en huise...hulle het nie die luksheid om oor die k*k te bekommer nie. #mytweesent :-)
Peter-John de Kock Die gespraak oor standbelde gee vir rampokers in die poletieke gebied 'n geleenthuid om punte in die verkiesing te score. Ons skyf elke standbeeld in die wereld en ons sit nogsteeds met probleme van armoedighuid, misdaad etc.
Stem 100% saam met jou.
As Suid Afrikaners hulle probleme will oorkom dan moet ons ophou om oor mebels te fokus.
BESTE LYN OOOOOOOOIT! "As Suid Afrikaners hulle probleme will oorkom dan moet ons ophou om oor mebels te fokus." Jy moet weet dat ek dit GAAN steel!!
By that analogy say less; lets put up Hitler statues shall we? What? Is that too painful of a history for white people to bear?
I find it interesting that Mr Qwabe accepts a Rhodes scholarship and then wantes to take down Rhodes statue, surely this is hypocrisy of the worst sort?
99IronDuke and in what way is he being hypocritical ....?? If I may ask?!!! .....was it really Rhodes money ???!! Sometimes I thought that people from western countries are smarter but I think it's the opposite.....when u come to my house and steal my diamonds and gold and coal and money and make me and my children to work in slave labour for free for u to get the minerals in my house to be dug up so u can take them to ur wife the queen of England and tell her that u did a great job in stealing my stuff and then years later ur desscendants and trustees with all the shame and guilt surrounding them decide that u did a bad thing to steal from my house and then decide to give my grandchildren a few moneys off what u stole from me to go to school in form of scholarships so they get an education that u deprived me of or from their ancestors ....how does that make grand children hypocrites ??!! On the other side do you think that a thief like Rhodes was prepared to pay back all that he stole from Africa ??!!!
Let's be clear all the students receiving these scholarships it is not that the Rhodes trustees or Rhodes is doing them a favor , it's not free money they are getting in terms of education , it's the money theirs ancestors and people worked hard for but were never paid. They have a right to it and I mean the non white British people only have the right to those scholarships especially those from southafrica and Zimbabwe Where Rhodes stole enormously from our people from Africa .
Okay let his trustees that award the scholarships cancel the scholarships of black African students , but PAY back the money, the diamonds , the gold .....and whatever the colonial governments stole from Africa and we see how much Africa will get back in return to what it's equivalent today of what was stolen from Africa ......., It will be much much more more than what the amounts received in scholarships is.
It is the same money and big amounts of wealth that was stolen from other countries and continents around the world , that ur British Royal family is still surviving on today in this century , to the extent that non of ur British royals have to go to work or actually do any job that is termed as a real job, of which left many societies poor around the world , so that ur British royal family can be rich today and don't have to work or for any of them to compete for a scholarship to any university later on even want to attain higher education as it well known that not so many members of ur Royal family are highly educated except for a few who have or may have honorary degrees that they never had to step in classes to attain ....., so ridiculous.
And I repeat , it is our stolen Money, stolen diamonds , stolen gold, stolen coal and hard slave labour that our children are being paid for with them to study at Oxford.
The scholarships are not a gift from Rhodes or his trustees or free in any way , it's a way of actually feeling guilty and shame for stealing from poor nations, African people and subjecting them to inhuman things he did to them. The Africans deserve that scholarship money bse they own it .
.....It is our wealth that was stolen from our ancestors and them. If our ancestors ,our people , our countries and our societies had been paid for their hard labour and for all the minerals and wealth that were stolen from Africa , they would have been able to send theirs generations and generations to schools and going to Oxford wouldnt be a problem since the funds to help do so would be available in our parents inheritances .
Claire Nabulime Your comment is a meme and way to long to waste time on. White man didn’t enslave you. Blacks did. Whites (Dutch merchants) just bought them. Let’s make that clear.
And yeah it was Rhodes plan lmao
I doubt any of the panelists have any idea what Alfred Milner and Cecil Rhodes wanted. Again, Read “the last will and testament of Cecil Rhodes” and you’ll discover how the new world order was created in it’s modern form.
@@thewhizzard6022 explain as I have read his will and your statement makes no sense.
@@clairenabulime3999 we are humans on planet earth so don't give me this is mine just because argument. It's dishonest.
24 black students, out of how many, and from what percentage of the country?
+Bogdan Buda out of about 2500 and around 3.5% of the country are black
80.5% anglosaxons left. Rip
Hi - could you turn on subtitles/transcript for this video? I'd like to use it with students whose first language is not English. Thanks
Best suggestion was relegating the statue to a museum.
No, don’t sanitise my culture you facist!
@@matthewhale2464 Sarcasm??
"Be cautious with your use of history"... Insightful
Yes it is, the gentleman on the far left managed to utter a whole string of lies without any show of repulse in himself. He’s either very good at hiding his conscience or he’s plainly dumb.
With all due respect Prof. Richard Drayton you are wrong on the part of Black people not getting scholarships in South Africa from Rhodes. During the height of Apartheid , my great-uncle Richard Rive a black person ( A South African, he had a West-Indian father (don't know the country sorry) and Cape Coloured mother)) received a D.Phil at Oxford during 1974. He must at least have started in 1971. Professor Krish Baruth-Ram (A South African of Indian descent) graduated in 1966 and started in 1963. Both their lives changed for the better and my great - uncle grew up in abject poverty.
Read “the last will and testament of Cecil Rhodes” and you’ll discover how the new world order was created in it’s modern form.
Besides apartheid and the boar wars, Rhodes was also responsible for ww1...
save time and skip ahead every time the lady in the right opens her mouth
"If we're going to insist on our heroes being pure, we aren't going to have any."
The adjudicator should have just called it an evening then.
Read “the last will and testament of Cecil Rhodes” and you’ll discover how the new world order was created in it’s modern form. Rhodes was never close to a hero, he is responsible for apartheid, the boar war, and World War fucking One.
Not having heroes from history is a pretty good idea.
The past was disgusting, painful and shameful, few of us could survive in it.
@@ArthurKaletzky history is what makes us ignoring it or removing it is a sign of intellectual immaturity
@@thewhizzard6022 I understand that he was a precursor of apartheid and the Boer War. But World War I? I don't think so. Austria, Russia, and Germany started World War I.
Ntokozo is the privileged son of a rich and powerful South African who destroyed Mandela's marriage by his adultery with Winnie Mandela/ Ntokozo, far from being a 'victim' represents the epitome of power and privilege among the black 'nomenclatura' of South Africa - the privileged ANC apparatchiks.
Tearing down the Rhodes statue is but a short step from the burning of books. It makes no sense to evaluate the conduct of any person by today's standards and then to try and revise history accordingly. If you are offended by the presence of the Rhodes statue at Oxford, you are free to apply to admission to another institution of higher learning like Khartoum of Harare.
Thank u Oxford for such debate,liberates minds that are imprisoned by the past
Awful arguments from both sides really. The simple fact remains that it should stand and continue to stand as, more than simply an individual, it should be seen as the locus of many great questions: indeed, how do we contextualize history? Do men have to be ethically and morally impeachable by all present and future generations to be considered great? Is it right to try and airbrush out the less savoury parts of the past? Unfortunately by burying the statue I fear we may be burying these questions, and simply trying to whitewash over the cracks and flaws in our collective history. It's good that the statue has encouraged debate, and hopefully it will in generations to come.
The people who might not be aware, 95% of all Banks are owned by former colonial powers including most of the big businesses in transport. The modern economy as we know it is western. To date companies such Barclays Bank cannot disclose the extent of their involvement and profit accruing from human trafficking. If it was not for this enterprise international banking would be none existant. The real subject worthy of study and pursuit pertaining to most of the issues around this subject is Economic history. Unfortunately, a lot of the great houses, institutions of learning associated with old money are implicated. It has been said that King Leopold of Belguim was so jealous of his British cousins that he went to the Congo and committed his atrocities. During his life he was very unpopular, he begged that his funeral would be unevenful. He was denied this. The true scale of his exploit recorded are not accessible to the public.
It was a war. Yes, there were losers.
This would have been a far better opening statement from the supposed defenders of Rhodes.
"The topic that you were asked here to debate tonight is "Must Rhodes Fall?". If you wish to conflate it with matters of identity politics, the representation of blacks in the faculty and student body, the legacy of colonialism and apartheid, then perhaps this debate is not the place for you. Now, let's address the question in a principled manner. It seems to me that your demand that Rhodes "must" fall is rooted in an attitude that is, at its heart, an undemocratic and authoritarian one. Oxford University has appropriate channels for students to exercise their political rights, and airing their grievances, in a place where ideas like the ones you have mentioned can be explored and debated in a civil way. By resorting to protests, chanting and insulting those opposed to your ideas, you have renounced such legitimate processes and therefore the right to demand that Rhodes must fall. Furthermore, if the administration is to fold to your tactics, it sets a dangerous precedent, not for going after the next statue, but for the next group of students that feels sufficiently aggrieved to abandon legitimate student politics and embark on the same course of action as we have seen this movement undertake. In an effort to impose their view of the world in general and history in particular, Rhodes must fall is going to open a 'Pandora's Box' of disorder and chaos in student politics at Oxford. It is for these reasons that Rhodes must not fall. Thank you."
+Mr Black You know who they needed on the side against the motion? David Starkey.
Rhodes was a scoundrel and a thief. His statue should go.
Esse é o debate mais 5a série que eu já vi, parabéns Oxford
I live in Oxford so have followed this issue closely. The most disturbing part was when one of the speakers called for "positive discrimination" otherwise her daughter would not be able to attend Oxford. The problem is, as a white heterosexual male, it would also mean that my daughter could NOT. It's scary that people actually think that doesn't matter because of our "privilege!". I personally don't believe that WHM people are privileged and we haven't been for decades, but hypothetically, even if we were: There are no specific goals or objectives to PS, no sunset clauses. For all we know PS could go on indefinitely, to the point where all WHM people are enslaved and in concentration camps or even DEAD. You can't fight injustice by trying to cancel it out with another piece of injustice. It doesn't work; all you get is a double dose of injustice.
+Mr Black I don't think it makes any difference. This issue is very similar to the recent one about the attacks on the history and flag of the Deep South in the USA. It engenders a dangerous delusion: that WHM people occupy a place of unique evil in the world, both in history and modern society. WHM people are "privileged" although nobody can define exactly in what way we are so. We are "Racists!", "rapists!", "fascists!" and "homophobes!", although again, how and why? I think it's a part of cultural Marxism, a form of mind control designed to mess with our heads. I mean ALL our heads, white, black, gay, straight, male, female.
+Ben Thejrporter its opression of whites. but really the zionist jews are behind it. youtube search 'racial agenda for the twentieth century' by israel cohen.
+Ben Thejrporter I'm surprised anyone takes anything these people say seriously and doesn't just dismiss them for the idiots they are.
+Ralph Jackson The "Rhodes Must Fall" sides? I quite agree!
Ben Thejrporter And I agree 100% with what you've written above. No discrimination is "positive" or desirable. It should be on merit regardless of people's ethnic background,gender,sexual orientation,etc.
These people that want the statue removed are absolutely absurd. "Abused by the Chancellor"?? I daresay that anyone who gets an entire debate, filmed and then published publicly is hardly being "silenced" or "abused". These people claim that people don't really notice or learn from statues, but that somehow they are simultaneously sending messages to the public who ostensibly knows nothing about them? Perhaps those that wish to make the argument for removing it, should have to present their side of the debate sans any of the benefits they enjoy due to the person they so demonize. Get out of the hall, and off the campus - and make your debate point from there, before you pretend that you aren't benefiting from that which you're decrying. "Those who do not know their history are doomed to repeat it."
How the hell can a room declare itself racist? Is this what an Oxford education produces?
Oxford isn't Africa. It's Oxford. If you want Africa for Africans, stay in Africa. If you want to work with as opposed to against other people, do so. Otherwise stay at home. It's patently absurd how people think they can insult you in exchange for a reconciliatory handout.
The presence of a statue of a racist bigot is an insult to humanity.
And today (18 April 2021) in Cape Town the Rhodes Memorial has been destroyed by fire.
It wasn’t destroyed, just damaged… it’s fine now
For a student living in Oxford, I would like to go to one of these rallies and just tell them to stop being so PC and accept the fact that you can't erase history. Oxford has been around for centuries and you want to take down one of it's values now? A minority of megaphones just need to learn to fit in, rather than trying to make everything else fit to them. This censorship of history to fit a minority is just an excuse to destroy another former culture, rather to let it co-exist with other cultures we're lucky to even let in. It's still racism to take something from a white originated element of a culture. You take a bit of our culture, you take away something you'll probably benefit from.
+Mattuiop
What grates me is that there are no working class people in that audience. Do any of these people know what living conditions were like for the working class in Great Britain during the same period as Rhodes?
All I see is privilege students, black/white/coloured, supporting a 'racist institute' by attending the university in the first place!
If you view Oxford as a racist institute then why on earth would you support it and take scholarships from it?
No one is trying to erase history - history exists in archives, libraries, books and journals. What needs erasing is pride in a nasty piece of history.
Almost all national and political history is a source of great shame, not pride.
@@ArthurKaletzky they are. Just look at what they are doing on archive dot net, censorship of important historical books, and Netflix shows that claim to be historically accurate and educational but change the race of the major players to give the illusion that britian is simultaneously has a "racist" history and a "diverse" one in the next breath.
@@mattuiop I'm confused.
1. Since when is Netflix, an entertainment medium, an academic authority of any kind?
2. A culture can be both diverse and deeply racist. The British Raj in India e.g.
3. Why should history, overwhelmingly a disgusting and tedious horror show, be a valued part of any culture? It's like making an altar or pagan idol out of a shitstool. Philosophy is IMO a far better foundation.
@@ArthurKaletzky 1. Isn't it obvious? Netflix isn't the only culprit. Ann Boleyn being a blatant Example of writing the ethnic British out of their own history.
2. 99.9% of the history of the British Isles was genetically North Western European. Colonial and maritime British history was mainly from the British expanding to those other cultures. Bare in mind that these former colonies aren't being ethnically taken over today unlike what is happening in the UK today ironically.
3. The point of learning history is to objectively not only look at its mistakes, but recognise and be proud of the achievements of your people, and gather an understanding what has to be preserved for future generations to advance upon.
This is just political point scoring and not anything do with Rhodes. Students must learn if they are not happy there are many other universities they could attend. Also I have ASD and the last time I was in the Bodleian I was treated with nothing but respect. This is an attack on tradition and nothing more.
How many white European professors are that at Nairobi University?
+Mr Black
It's kind of like feminists who never complain about their underrepresentation in the sewage treatment industry.
+99IronDuke
Never mind European professors... how many European students from economically deprived areas are at Nairobi University with free scholarships (who also demand statues of the person that gave them the free scholarship be removed because they think the person they accepted the free scholarship from is racist and the university they agreed to attend is a racist institute... hypocrisy)
HitManHey
So how many Black African came to Europe to steal its wealth? Who paid for those free places? The fucking Africans! It is their money.
Twats are always easy to counter argue. I can kick your hole till the kingdom comes!
- -
Incidentally... most money has actually gone to Whites and not to Blacks. But don't let facts hit you in the face.
HitManHey Lol! You are completely confused. Why do you think I should fight for anyone? Why? What the fuck has the British Great Unwashed got to do with anything?
You are completely fucked up in the head. You are thick and stupid and uneducated.
- -
Look what this was about... and you turned it around to make out that "Whites" are the real victims. Whites playing victims is called racism.
This was about Rhodes... not the White Working Classes. And the fact that it was Africans whose money went to Rhodes Scholarship.
Who benefits? Mainly Whites do... Tony Abbot? Billy Clinton?
- -
"Incidentally... most money has gone to the 1%ers"
Yes it does. That is how Capitalism works. And?
You unoriginal fuck even copied my words! Dear god!
- -
"It's their wealth because it falls within their national boarders"
GB was built during colonial era and vast wealth from outside... and now that has gone slowly it will find its balance with rise of nations like India and South Korea and many others.
+HitManHey Europeans own the mines and the wild animals, including the most fertile land, the entire tourism offering. Most of the land around Cecil Rhodes railroad was surveyed and owned by them, through the pact or charter that became the constitution of most of these countries. They give independence to them if they respected property rights meaning the land accrued by British nationals. The constitution for all these countries was a standard template for all of them. This is why the like Nelson Mandela are now consider traitors to the cause. Most of the Africans who sat at the negotiating table during this period were Knighted including Robert 'Uncle Bobb'. Indicating that they are servants to the Crown, something which is illegal under the US constitution because truly where does your loyalty lie?
Amazing it took until the 6th speaker we actually had any facts. As others have commented and will comment, if you take Rhodes down you must lose all the Rhodes Scholarships. You don't like Rhodes, you don't get his money. Simple.
+NEIL DEGVILLE - really? Were you actually listening to the first four speeches? I heard lots of facts eg. Rhodes's contemporaries considered him a rogue if not a criminal, the statue was part of a campaign to launder his reputation?
+Petra Smith As someone who studies history I already knew something about Mr Rhodes. I didn't need four people with a politically correct agenda to tell me what kind of man he was. He was a man of his time. You can't put a 21st Century mindset on a 19th Century person. Yes, he was unscrupulous. A chancer. But for a dreamer he actually achieved. He changed the world and that never happens without terrible things happening along the way. Publish books, make films, protest against him by all means. But these people are wanting to erase history. They want to control history by erasing the bits they don't like. Sorry, not having it. Face up to it. The boy hates what he represents, how can he take the RHODES Scholarship? Says everything about that person.
It wasn't his money, that's the point.
Rhodes scholarship money ?? Money stolen from Africa..
@@ANGLORUSSIANCZ If you study history, you must know that history exists in archives, libraries, books and journals, not in statues.
Statues are about PRIDE in history, and political and military history is always a source of shame, with tiny bright intervals like the Great French Revolution.
Karl Deutsch: "a nation is a group of people united by mistaken beliefs about their past". That's what statues do, and that's what must erased.
The proponents of the RMF position are way out of their depth in advancing a case for bringing down Rhodes statue. Not only is their argument unintelligible, but as it turns out especially with some of their statistics and historical sources, a great deal of flaw subsists. Prof Beinart's caution of Ntokozo's use of history is quite apt. By the way, the young man appears somewhat discourteous! Overall, the points from the opposition are logical and compelling. I was devoid of any predilection at the start of the polemic, but I leave the debate with the conviction that it's gratuitous to advocate for Rhodes statue to be removed. May I also add that the opponents of the motion are well-informed and well-intentioned. Good debate!
+Uthman Akeel
I wish you had had the Rhodes scholarship. Good luck
+Luisella Simpson
Thanks a lot! I have a similar scholarship already...
Listen coconut... Rhodes was openly a racist there is ample evidence of that... Sucking up to White Racism? What do you get out of it?
+AminTheMystic What you read is an objective assessment of the debate. Is objectivity also alien to us? Does it equate to subservience to "white racism"? I really don't understand what your rant is about. Yes, Rhodes was racist but he was a product of his time. Many historical figures were racist, tribalistic and nepotic. Should we now condemn them all? You need to extricate yourself from the shackles of emotional disability and paranoia. Isn't it even cowardly, anti-intellectual and plainly debasing for us to declare war on effigies and statues? We have a problem with Rhodes, but instead of facing him we are challenging a statue of him. Please don't ridicule us. Africa needs to progress intellectually...Thanks for your time! And BTW, I am no coconut...
+Uthman Akeel Please reply within the parameters of erecting a Hitler Statue somewhere at an African Institution as a model of efficiency to be taught to African students.
Mr Qwabe is not doing his movement any favours when he insults Dr Biggar by saying that he should stick to theology and he should remain in the past.
My dream is to become a Professor. It is a long and tough road. Many Black people simply can't afford to be permanent students and after a certain degree they tend to support their families. There is simply not enough funding from where I come from to fund a part time student and most can't afford the university fees. The fact that there are few black people in academia is not racism but more on financial strain.It takes 20 years to become a professor. I hope they know that.
+Farrel Sidney Wentzel I am touched by this honest and deep statement, so far from from the self-serving violence which underlied Ntokoso Quabe's interventions, among others. Ask Ntokoso to help you, rather than going after a statue. And ask him in 50 years if he has done so, and thinks he may deserve a statue himself.
His dad is a prominent politician in South Africa and I know his dad preaches socialism but drives a R1 million car and a . ( Top of the Range Range Rover) while their supporters can't even buy bread which is R10. ( 1 British pound is now R23) I know the likes of him and they just want impossible demands. I will never ask the likes of them for help. Thanks don't worry I shall make it :)
This whole debate is absurd. Rhodes is being judged completely out of his historical context. No one returned to Professor Biggar's point that Durban International Airport is named after King Shaka Kasenzangakona, a ruthless African warrior who created an empire through a process of annihilation and assimilation. After the death of his mother Nandi, a grief ridden Shaka carried out the genocide of his own people, and yet an airport has been named after him! However, I recognise that to some people Shaka is also remembered as a great warrior, who united his people and developed a strong African polity. The cretinous members of the RMF movement need to realise that history and its characters are much more nuanced.
+Mal Preece He is not. I don't support the removal of the statue, but to pretend Rhodes wasn't deeply controversial at the time is to perpetuate a lie - as Richard Drayton pointed out perfectly effectively.
Dbdbe1 exvellent point
What an ignorant asshole you are. Read “the last will and testament of Cecil Rhodes” and you’ll discover how the new world order was created in it’s modern form.
Shaka wasn’t responsible for ww1, Cecil Rhodes and England we’re responsible. Read “the last will and testament of Cecil Rhodes” and you’ll discover how the new world order was created in it’s modern form.
95% of the general public under the age of 60 have never heard of Cecil Rhodes. Are we now to burn books that mention him? He is dead, South Africa is free and independent. More important to me would be, how to use the resources of the nation to educate, feed, house, provide healthcare, improve business and welfare for all. The issue of Rhodes and the statue is irrelevant to the modern needs of Africa. Energies would be better used to get a rational government that will improve the lives of all it's people.
Read “the last will and testament of Cecil Rhodes” and you’ll discover how the new world order was created in it’s modern form.
Besides apartheid and the boar wars, Cecil Rhodes was responsible for world war fucking one!
You are a sheep
muh feels
Ha-ha-haaa!!! I love this debate. I'm of the opinion that Rhodes statue in Britain should not fall because it represents what the black people is Africa say: "Britain colonized South Africa, Zimbabwe etc" And as far as I'm concerned his statue has a right to exist in England, where he came from. But it should not be permitted to exist in public spaces of Africa, except perhaps in "war criminals and colonizers museums. Britain is inclusively regarded as a racist country, and Oxford, because of people like Rhodes, is subsequently regarded as racist, unless it proves itself by a radical social change like anti racism etc. At least this is what I think...his statue should exist because he helped in the establishment Oxford University. It's true the onus is on Oxford to set up its own legacy. As an African, I can admit, Oxford is the only British university I new since my childhood in South Africa. All statues of Europeans should be welcomed in Europe, but not in Africa. Black university students should fight their way through white supremacy in their own terms, not by removing white historical statues who bear witness to white racism and discrimination of students from minority groups and foreign black students and academics. Rhodes did all his exploits in Africa for the benefit of his people, first the English and then, the Boers of South Africa, Namibia, and Zimbabwe (South West Africa, and Rhodesia, respectively).
Fuck off bongo
JDHyatt1989 lol no the west still controls almost evrything in africa
We Brits have bent over backwards to integrate foreigners into our society how dare you make a statement like that ??
A very disappointing result, which flies in the face of common sense and has worrying implications for free speech in one of our most respected universities.
However, for the Oxford Union to display such naive lunacy is not uncommon. In the 1930s, with European fascism on the ascendancy, the Union voted overwhelmingly in support of the proposition that it would never fight for its country. Less than the a decade later, the country saw why this was such a naive and foolish stance.
Similarly, I think most of the country already sees why airbrushing historical figures you don't like out of history, is naive and foolish.
Why do u expect any different? Read “the last will and testament of Cecil Rhodes” and you’ll discover how the new world order was created in it’s modern form.
It's not even a well-done sculpture - but perhaps the fact that he stands hat in hand says all it needs to say.
If I had a vote. I'd vote for it to stay. As a historian I hate to have artifacts destroyed. However, if I was a student, every morning I would go to the statue and throw an egg in the face of Rhodes. I'd force people to support Rhodes to have to spend a minute every day cleaning it. Now that's a compromise!
*****
I suggest a Michael Jordan statue. All people like him.
I really want to know why I watched this whole thing without commercials, yet watch anything else and i get 4-8 commercials.
Cuz its not monetised
It depends on the uploader
This video should come with a trigger warning for stupidity. I think Oberlin College may have some competition.
Poor baby. Read “the last will and testament of Cecil Rhodes” and you’ll discover how the new world order was created in it’s modern form.
3% of the population can "demand" higher than statistical representation? Having lived in several countries it amazes me that in the U.S. and the U.K. there seems to be such a strange insistence that the majority MUST recognize and respect differing cultures and peoples as having a place equal to the majority. Respect for the different makes sense, but ending up in a situation where every small group can demand, and receive alterations to the majority (and at times the vast majority) rather than within a smaller community of like peoples ) is simply stunning. If I am in a minority position I would not live where I did not receive equal legal rights, but the idea that I, as a member of a minority can demand alterations to the main culture simply because something offends me is just a disaster waiting to happen. This particular event rather depressed me, both in terms of format ( I do so prefer the standing commentary to the seated dialogue) and the lack of well reasoned, factually based positions.
The only opinion that matters is that Rhodes must go.
🤦♂️ people clapping at anything that comes from the left side panel is embarrassing. They don't even seem to be listening to what they are saying, they just simply clap as they already know that they represent the viewpoint they already hold.
The guy in a white shirt walks like a problem maker.
While I don't doubt their sincerity, I feel like the Rhodes Must Fall side are arguing from a position of this statue being 'the straw that broke the camels back'; it's not so much the statue in itself, it's more to do with the climate of racial prejudice in general. If they didn't experience racism they probably wouldn't look twice at the statue.
However, as much as I sympathise with them, I'm not sure tearing down statues that hold significant historical value just because they don't fit our current sensibilities isn't a precedent we should want to set. We simply aren't going to find modern morales in historical figures. Should we tear down Churchill statues because he was racist? Should we tear down Henry VIII statues because he was misogynist? Should we tear down Cromwell because he offends Irish-people? Perhaps in the future people will debate on whether they should tear down a statue from today because the figure supported the barbarically cruel meat industry, which may in the future be considered just as bad.
Read “the last will and testament of Cecil Rhodes” and you’ll discover how the new world order was created in it’s modern form.
Cecil is responsible for apartheid and the boar wars, but more importantly, ww1.
Fuck Churchill, fuck Cecil, please raze oxford to the ground.
Sophia Conan her body gesture telling us the opposite of her argument, it looks if she's being forced to be that side of the debate
Don't look to history to find values, look to history to learn mistakes. Good news that the statue stays, we don't celebrate everything he did, but it's important to learn his story.
Removing the statue does not mean the money from the Rhodes trust should stop. Indeed, Rhodes owes that money to the indigenous students of South Africa. If the administrators of the Rhodes Trust unilaterally decide to stop the money, they should be replaced with people more suited to the task.
They change the debate to the lack of diversity - ie not many black professors etc, but why ? Not enough educated ones it would appear. It also obvious that their grasp of African history is miniscule and could be written on the back of a postage stamp.
They didn’t even discuss Rhodes to any great extent.....
I've seen Filthy Frank present better arguments than the first 4 speakers.
I've seen Soupy Sales present better arguments than the last three speakers.
Fruitful debate. I'm a real fan of modern intellectualism. #oxfordunionftw #liberalarts
Breathtaking hypocrisy of Mr Rhodes’ scholars.
How? When he's taking money that originally belongs to his own South African people. His reason made a lot of sense. From a Ship of Theseus perspective. Genius honest answer he gave
They talk about the statue not being noticed and there being no education because of it. But if you remove it then there would be absolutely ZERO chance of any education or acknowledgment. Their logic is odd.
I think the debate was one way, we need more of white students and white teachers in predominantly black schools as well. but it was a nice debate as well.
One thing I struggle to get my head around is how Oxford is presented, throughout the debate, as both a desirable/magnificent and undesirable/appalling institution. Is it not the very things that makes it appalling that are contributing to its being desirable and vice versa.
No. Rhodes must not fall.
Convincing and well-balanced argument !
25:29 “oH bUt hE wAsN’t tHaT bLaCk,’ what an argument
The woman on the far right is simply embarassing
What about statues of non-whites who also were responsible of colonialism, slavery, genocide etc, who still have not been removed? What about the statues of Timur, a turkic-mongol conqureror who massacred, genocided and enslaved millions of indians, arabs, persians, armenians, georgians and europeans? Or what about the statues of Luis de Carvajal, a sephradic conquistador who conquored Northern Mexico and enslaved thousands of American Natives? Why haven't these statues been removed? Why are we just focusing on removing status of white slave traders and racists?
The great non-debate
What a bunch of precious little darlings. One wonders what they are going to do when they encounter the 'real world.' Run off for a safe space I suppose.
How to keep racism alive - divide people by meaningless gesture politics
Yep, they had this debate instead of discussing how Cecil Rhodes started ww1... Read “the last will and testament of Cecil Rhodes” and you’ll discover how the new world order was created in it’s modern form.
Ntokozo Qwabe 👏 👏 👏 👏 👏
What was the purpose of Rhode statues? The reason why most people wanted to remove the statues of Rhode because they don't know or don't care about the purpose of the statue in school.
Read Tragedy and Hope by Carroll Quigley
So what was the outcome of the vote at the end?
Is this howling audience actually students or bored visitors from a local pub..?
ArrigAutist Both.
What was the final vote statistic?
Thank you for allowing me to witness this debate. If, as I think, the viewing gives an insight to what is afoot in several (particularly American) universities, it worries me deeply.
First of all, the ethnic frame into which the RMF would push this whole debate is worrying. Once such a frame is adopted, statistics can easily show that, for example, Chinese and other East and South-East Asians are massively rising throughout main world universities (their own and abroad) , as students and then as professors. This recent rise on the world scene is entirely due to their and their communities’ merit. As for students from the African continent, I worry that the best and brightest among them have not even made it to secondary school. They certainly did not make it to the chairs filled here by three students, so sure to be the worthy representatives of their peoples.
Secondly, the “freezing and flattening” (when not fudging) of history, heralds the very opposite of an educated and educative approach. Why statues matter, in such contexts, is also because, far from a complex truth, they can be invested with simple labels and just as simply, at one stroke, demolished.
Note that the initial move from Rhodes scholar N. Quabe was to disapprove of the comfortable space offered by the Oxford Union Society. The length and depth of human effort that it took for that building (in the wider sense) to be erected and to serve this purpose, was turned into an object of scorn. The best product of a civilizational process - a hall dedicated to debate, protected from hasty violence by an entire society’s fought-over values (free speech, self-questioning, inclusiveness as a goal) was put into question.
This leads to my third point, the betrayal of democracy. The way in which both Quabe and Drayton thought well to add to their discourse base rudeness towards other speakers, is not to be taken lightly. The following may seem very disproportionate to our situation, but it is a warning: whether during the French Revolution or the Rwandan genocide (among countless examples), those most bent on debasing opponents were soon seen to… send heads rolling. (For the moment, some well-intentioned US university administrators have “merely” lost their jobs in similar contexts).
The lack of any in-depth answer to the few true questions which were put to the RMF panelists (such as: should the statue go, while polls report 56% of Oxford students opposed) led naturally to Quabe’s concluding statement: those who would like to “like” and vote for what he unlikes, will be “taken over by History”. This uttering can be considered as a possibly true prediction, or, in a more menacing light, as a warning not to vote as one wishes.
This debate (or let’s just say the session) had the merit of allowing the grievances of the motion’s proponents to be aired. My thanks go to the very few constructive, subtle and polite remarks put forward, including those by Professor Beinart .
28:02 that would be a great debate
Actually this whole debacle is pathetic.
It's easy, but it's shameful and cowardly, to judge and condemn a man who's been dead for 120 years by the confused moral standards of today. Doing so while enjoying the fruits of his great deeds is repulsively hypocritical. Indeed that is far worse than any moral shortcomings these people ascribe to Rhodes. No one could ever accuse Cecil Rhodes of hypocrisy, at least. Putting aside any urge to pass post-modern moral judgement on the man, one cannot deny his genius and his great achievements. My guess would be that not a one of the black members of this panel will ever return to Africa to use their education for the betterment of that mostly pitiable continent, as Rhodes did and strove so mightily to do for all his life. They are quite happy to remain in Britain and Europe where they can put the only thing of any value they have to offer on display, and the only distinction for which they will be recognized - their indignation from a sense of inherited victimhood. Curious why you don't see such hand-wringing panels comprised of other formally colonized races, such as Hindu Indians. I suppose those people are too busy making significant contributions in the fields of science, commerce, and technology...instead of crying on anyone who will give them a shoulder about events that occurred several generations ago.
Dispora: a genus of green algae
I have compassion for those who feel and believe their demographic, has been marginalized. However as the Afrikaner has proven, minorities can generate self-actualization. The disenchanted must build their own institutions. Let them discover what they don't know, and realize their wishes are unreasonable and narrow minded.
Oh god, this is meant to be one of the best universities in the world! And it has turned into a politically correct shithole (atleast the ones that attends the Union debates). Good for Oxford standing up, and telling them how wrong they are, Rhodes achieved much in his career and whether you like it or not Black living standards were greater during Rhodes than when they were tribal.
Someone needs to start a massive anti PC movement.
An anti conservative movement would be better. Send all the conservatives to Antarctica. Then they could make the penguins unhappy.
@@SymphonyBrahmsAntarctica can't be a bigger shithole than San Fran or Detroit so why not 😂
It generally takes a racist to find a racist.
Grandus11 takes one ☝🏽 to know one
Rhodes was a great man
Interesting question @105:10, most of the time, we claim to be revolutionaries turn to be clueless of the way-forth; or what to implement to replace what we scorn
MAY THE PIGEON POOP BE CONTAINED IN THEIR WITLESS HEADS MY LORD
Dear sir,
calling all Oxford alumni - appreciate you are all busy but if you know of any Oxford alumni or anyone of interest could you possibly read and if useful pass on. This is a personal no budget campaign although I am retired BBC and am simply making contacts in the press and business. This WOKE BLM campaign in Oxford could spread with unforeseen consequences, and there may be a way to stop it before it becomes completely out of control.
As a retired University lecturer, the debate about Rhodes college and the grounds around it, has overlooked something quite important. Rhodes’ college and the courtyards and gardens, as are many is a grade 1 listed building and is covered in law.
Law supersedes political correctness and the demands of present students, who also fail to take into account once a member of a college always a member of the college and have they have not been consulted which in college rules they also have a vote on the issue.
Sooner this lunacy stops before Nelsons statue is removed on the basis he sailed in a ship whose technology developed with the aid of the slave trade. Maybe someone should contact the council and planning officer - or the college could be looking at a hefty fine and court case. Historic vandalism should not be acceptable where-ever it occurs.
As an aside I live in France and recently a similar group attempted to remove a statue of Napoleon France here the local mayor has real power - he dismissed them as #### lunatics pointing out that the whole of France from roads to taxes to sewers to architecture is all based on Napoleons efforts.
Vile as it is was - slavery predates writing as far as we can ascertain is not a simplistic black white issue - pyramids remove them - Libyas ancient temples remove them - Bordeaux remove it - Barbary Pirates pardon them my god, Rome that has to come down. Let us fight back with wit, eloquence clear thinking and port swilling barristers. 100 of the same Rhodes students from the group that are protesting have their fees paid by the Rhodes fund which makes this even more bizarre.
Regards
Tony Adeney
so far people have contacted oxford council conservation officer, english heritage, the PM, the Rhodes college, Rhodes alumni association, huffington post, sunday times but every email helps. We are also adding comments to youtube where appropriate. Have we forgotten anybody - the more influential the better.
The land on which the Univesity of Cape Town now stands was part of the original Groote Schuur Estate which Cecil John Rohes had bought and developed. He gave that land to the people of South Africa for the construction of the university. This land is positioned in the Western Cape which no black Africans can claim. As a South African, I am proud of our history and what Cecil John Rhodes did for South Africa and Southern Africa. Why are you bending or even listening to the wishes of people who are guests in the UK and have no claim to any positive development in South Africa? Africans should have no say in a British university, whether they like it or not.