This House regrets the fall of the British Empire | Cambridge Union
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- Опубліковано 26 сер 2024
- Debate Results: 26 Ayes | 301 noes | 38 abstention
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THURSDAY, 03rd of March 2022 At 8:00 p.m.
Proposition:
1. Dr. Zareer Masani:
Dr. Masani is the author of Macaulay: Britain’s Liberal Imperialist (Bodley Head, 2014). He spent two decades as a current affairs producer for the BBC and is now a freelance historian, journalist and broadcaster.
2. Student Speaker
3. Dr. Marie Daouda:
Dr. Daouda is a lecturer and tutor in French language and literature
at Oriel College, Oxford. She is a regular contributor to UnHerd, the
Telegraph, and the Critic, where she writes about British and French heritage, the Classics, and post-colonialism.
Opposition:
1. Professor Edith Hall:
Professor Hall is a Classicist and academic at the University of Durham. She has published more than thirty books on ancient Greece and Rome and their continuing influence in the modern world.
2. Student Speaker
3. Baroness Chakrabarti:
Baroness Chakrabarti is a Labour politician, barrister, and human rights activist, who has served as Shadow Attorney General for England and Wales, and director of Liberty, a civil liberties advocacy group.
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It’s truly become sickening how many British young adults have been convinced by algorithms to hate their own history and culture, and to perceive themselves as being especially morally conscious when they espouse myopic views of history. Why do we not see these kinds of debates at Al-Azhar University, where students express their loathing of undeniably barbaric caliphates? Where but in the West will you find a university union full of people from all over the world? I’m glad we’ve welcomed people - but ask yourself why it is that the world has been pouring into the West, and not the West fleeing to the rest. These students seem to be unaware of human nature, as they ascribe immoral actions only to their own culture.
Because you are rich from the profits of the empire and we are poor because not only you exploited us but put your slaves in power when you left. Gandhi-Nehru are the best examples.
every polite effort by the young to give notice to others of their best regrets about the history and the legacies they must face down in favour of astute beliefs--not bovine conventions instead--is a polite move not only to give notice, but also to improve on burdens they must reduce, and often, to reduce handicaps they rightly do not want in their way as vigorous citizens in charge of a recovering, vigorous economy and culture. if they can clear a path for themselves, they will not have been impeded by extraneous scolds wanting to attribute to very many what only few actually think about, namely, many continuing failures and without any good ideas about recoveries, etc. moreover, among the best, controversial pivoting and often claiming to be devils' advocates would best be dispensed with more often than not if such ever happens, which seems to happen if not expertly thwarted, etc.
That first woman seems absolutely miserable
So far, the president has handled this debate's insolence pretty well. Respect.
Yes - he is very good. Not pandering to his peers (and yet clearly respected by them) - welcoming especially to those who may be feeling nervous - grateful for each contribution. And if he is responsible for the topics debated - also choosing some good topics. I wish at his age I had half the character and composure he has.
@-1:07:08 after professor Hall shamelessly implies that too many men have spoken, she attempts to solicit an interjection from the female members (as though they couldn’t have spoken had they’d been inclined). The young woman who volunteered, “on that point”…“yes?!”… “The stage is his.” What a beautiful expression of the true spirit of equality of the sexes. The female members didn’t need Prof. Hall to solicit questions from them. Only a few minutes into her rebuttal, she’s argued racism and sexism; these are not arguments, but a smear tactics.
Dr. Zaheer Masani follows the Anglophile path set by Nirad C Chaudhari. Masani is polite. Chaudhari was assertive. Masani turned to Macaulay, Chaudhari to Max Mueller. Both settled in England.
He is a slave.
What is special about the British Empire is that the majority of Brits are, to whatever degree, apologetic about it. This is only paralleled on a large scale by Germans (Nazism) and Americans (slavery), and perhaps Aus/Can (aboriginals). Try asking a Han Chinese if they are apologetic for the exploitation of millions or tens of millions of so-called enemies of the revolution. In both cases, atrocities were perpetrated in the name of the state. Don't fall victim to the facile view that exploitation of one nation-state or empire by another is worse than, for example, internal exploitation, or exploitation of the stateless within one's borders.
In India, atrocities perpetrated by Indian rulers before and after Independence were much worse than those perpetrated by British rulers during the Raj. Also, the British government was ashamed by the Amritsar massacre and many government officials loudly condemned it. When the Republic of India's government has committed massacres, it's usually brushed them under the carpet and not bothered to apologise.
If you think the majority of the British are apologetics about their past you haven’t followed Brexit. 😄
However I agree with your general point.
@@pansepot1490 Britain's imperial past has nothing to do with Brexit... Secondly, why should we as a people in 2022, be apologetic for the actions of a government from over 200+ years ago?
Respectful... your kidding. Look at the carry on over the northern Ireland brex it protocol. A horrible arrogant race, even your response. Slavery in usa, the Brits. Aboriginal Australians. Brits again
"What is special about the British Empire is that the majority of Brits are, to whatever degree, apologetic about it."Most are proud
Dr Zareer Masani fr ruined the whole debate because he made the remaining 1 hour and 15 minutes pointless; he already won the debate, why did it continue?
Continued, 'cos it's Cambridge. Greater minds with greater needs to score wonk points for future government openings.
Big and small wheels need to stay on-track. Otherwise, train crash. Thus, the Debate Results (in the title lines).
The Speaker from Singapore was very well balanced and rational it's a breath of fresh air
Dr Masani is the only knowledgeable person in the whole debate. Or at least the only person who used his knowledge in the debate. Everyone else was mainly just hot air, only he was actually well-informed on history and able to rebut other people's points, because he knew their arguments better than they did.
Well said! 👍🏻
Exactly
Did you watch Nicholas Davis?
He is a real slave, quoting another slave Tirthankar Roy of the LSE. .
Learning the counterarguments is what none of these kids have done. They inherited their parents views , are rebelling against them, and have yet to credit what we learn when we grow up a bit. Tirthankar Roy’s 2 volumes, are well worth reading for the economic counterpoints.
As Shakespear said: "More of your conversation would infect my brain" and "The rankest compound of villainous smell that ever offended nostril"
As a Canadian, I am proud of the British Empire and my family's service to it.
I really did enjoy this debate!
Question. How do I discern between students, and " young visitors? The boys in the back are fidgeting, and seem very innatentive? Thanks.
Oh no
No one disputes the evils of the British Empire according to the geopolitical ethics of today. It is the interpretation of the British Empire in its own time that seems contentious, and more so by those who tend to emote rather than think critically. You cannot interpret history anachronistically.
Masani is more or less spot on.
52:57 If i was a drug dealer I would hire you as my lawyer
Nicholas Davis Nailed it (46:35 -58:40)
He didn't address the other points. That was low-hanging fruit.
@@denverbritto5606
Those low hanging fruits are conveniently ignored by British historians ( conservative ones even more)
@@ranadeep7462 no i meant his response to dr masani's comment on the opium trade, smart response, but low hanging fruit. And you're wrong about them ignoring these things, even Niall Ferguson, usually touted as an imperial apologist, spends a great deal of his book on Empire discussing atrocities.
I think he mentioned the British as being a 'pasty version of Pablo Escobar with gunboats'...somewhat derogatory dont you think?
Judging the past from the present I see
Correction for Declan - There are no UN Peacekeepers in Sierra Leone which effectively drew down 14 years ago.
The British in the UK are still blighted by Empire control. One family claims ownership of 31% of all the land plus the entire surrounding sea-bed, Prince Charles still takes income from property sales in Cornwall (he really needs the money !!). Chakrabarti was good. Nicholas Davies was excellent. As for the word Regret. Not much point, those times were those times, humans were still grasping education, many thought the world was flat, 99.9% had zero knowledge of the cosmos and cosmology. To evolve to a compassionate understanding of all people, nature and living things, including the planet's oceans (seas) - that has to be the aim but it won't come from the USA. That idea of a Union is circling the drain. Good work from the President. Finally, my Step-father left India when he was 20, I took him back for a 3 week visit when he was 72, a gap of 52 years, he was disappointed that the people were still so divided and the infrastructure had not advanced significantly in that half a century.
6:10 "The [British imposed] rule of law in India meant that the courts did not distinguish between different caste groups, people were equal before the law provided it of course they could afford to pay for it" - well that is pretty telling isn't it
In pre-British India, even if you could pay for a legal defence, if you were the wrong caste, you still wouldn't receive justice. The British officials did administer a rougher justice outside the courts for those who couldn't afford the formal legal process. The renowned historian of India, Charles Allen, has written of how his father would spend many hours a day dispensing justice from the verandah of his house to those who came to him with their disputes.
People paying for court is something which happens in the UK today
@@Swift-mr5zi So right. As Scrooge might have put it: "Court costs....decrease the surplus population (of Court time-wasters)".
@@sikandarsahib7004 Tell that, to the upstart Student speaker. Incidentally the last "verandah" we had was in Rhodesia. The houseboy answered to his given name; Ninepence.
With his own wife and baby, he protected me like a son. Charles Allen's free justice, worked both ways. All were mostly at peace with the passage of history, of their time.
So the same sort of thing as the modern day west? Almost all public defenders have some fee (i.e. taxes), or are otherwise worse than their private counterparts-meaning aside from the most open and shut cases- the private (moneyed-up) lawyer, will win.
1:00:00 the sheer arrogance of the “oh well we have food and things like that so not all bad” argument is revolting
Nick was the best!
23:40, 29:38, 30:14, 31:00, 35:34, 39:19, 51:20, 59:02, 59:44, 1:05:28, 1:06:15, 1:07:00, 1:07:35, 1:24:28
36:23 "this is not fascism!" lmao
Of course, it was rather sad.
Beside the clapping seal at the back(obviously unintentional ) I especially enjoyed Dr Masani, Dr Dauda. Although I enjoyed Baroness Chakrabarti I think she needs to research the modern empire of America, and their exploitation of Ukraine.
I will help you on your way in research by giving you some names. Victoria Nuland, John McCain, Lindsey Graham and Hunter Biden.
Shell companies. Household Energy bills 25%.
Well that went well for the Proposition, eh?
😂😂 Can’t wait until it comes out!
Yes, most viewers would probably agree with them. Not these Oxford toffs though.
For a subject that the professional baiters say is never taught or discussed, it's all I hear about.
Be optimistic guys...! My grandma still looked alive and exist last year then still has a chance to find good successor ... I still believe too that what her belief still alive until now or forward...accordance her sword still lives too... For every single person who believes her...🌐🇬🇧👑❤️
"This house regrets the fall of the Third Reich UND HIER IST KEIN WARUM".
We paid for there wars
Why don't you Mic people who don't have a mic?
Wrong 1935 was not the basis for Indian constitution the home rule declaration of 1918 was
Why didn't the Muslims have different system of law like Triple Talaq, or polygamy still practised within Muslim communities.
23:45 That default 'mode of production' that she describes is what has allowed humanity to grow and prosper. Is she really suggesting that the industrial revolution was a bad thing?
Edit:
25:50 Okay so this woman is ridiculous.
Dr Daouda is quite the awful speaker, meandering away in favour of….something?
@PrestonSartorius it’s disappointing! I don’t agree with the proposition but I think her slot definitely could’ve went to someone with a lot more to add and argue
I am sorry to say that British rule have been nothing but scaring for India, and we celebrate the fall of the British Empire. I don't even know who called this debate but this debate would be treated as a joke anywhere except for the British soil. This itself speaks a lot about how the nations under colonialists felt.
Sorry you feel that way. Have you read Kartar Lalvani’s book ‘The Making of India:The Untold Story of British Enterprise’? It’s worth a read. 👍🏻
@@malpreece5008 thanks for the recommendation! I'll try it
Scaring ?? Sir, the only scary part of Indian politics is prolonged Islamic rule and Nehruvian protectionist rule. British repaired what Muslims destroyed and Nehru destroyed what British created (all good workforce to infrastructure)
British rule was the greatest thing to happen to India.
Bro this is hindutva ideology! But it's a bubble that will disappear soon. I am Hindu from Hyderabad and muslims have been a part of us from a very long time and this is true for Kerala or and other states where Muslims are a long part of. Muslims have come to India and settled with us for more than a thousand years. they are part of this subcontinent as we are. Infact Hyderabad was built by a Muslim dynasty ( the quli dynasty) and we had the best public infrastructure of any Indian dominion. By hating on muslims and creating communal ideas will only hurt the country. Ever wonder why Germany accepts so many refugees in a time of crisis before, because they trust their national and cultural integrity. Indians trusting eachother is a sign of strength and it is good for our democracy. Unlike the muslim dynasties, British have never settled here and have robbed the country for a couple of centuries sucking everything out of India and have committed massacres quite sometimes. So you tell me, isn't it scaring?
Well, if modern-day India and Pakistan were both in some type of confederation, with their militaries intertwined with the British military, then they wouldn't have been on the verge of nuclear war for the past 50 years and presumably for the foreseeable future. I don't know enough about the 1940s to speculate if things could have gone another way. And I like the little golf claps of who I believe is one of the vice presidents of the house.
@PrestonSartorius contrary the opposite. There were much more freedom among Indian industrialists and businessmen in pre 1947 which was literally destroyed by Nehruvian protectionism in post 1947 to late 1980s.
@PrestonSartorius literally most of the India planning periods of post 1947 failed. Our near neighbour China’s GDP was lower than India and it beat India by huge margin. The growth you are stressing on, whole world witnessed after recovering from World War 2
@PrestonSartorius China’s statism did not stop them to progress more than India. So better to focus what they achieved instead of ‘-ism’
@Plump Rump Indian Bourgeoisie society always in favour of British Raj and that was good too. It expanded their business plus created more job opportunities
Terms like "British Empire" are a necessity - they are because if we instead simply talked about those who ruled and those where were ruled it would suddenly reveal what the term helpfully hides (for those who want it to hide) - that rulers have always been a combination of virtue and vice in varying proportions - and yet we won't don't have debates about every example of rulership. Sure - it's fine to ask questions about the way in which the British ruled - but only as evidence of human nature - not as proof of some kind of failed British Project. But many don't like talking about human nature - because it's a lot more difficult to be self-righteous when talking about human nature.
*evidence of British nature maybe?
@@boysoprano5446 that implies ethnicities have their morals decided by DNA and not individually… which is quite literally the attitude of the British Empire.
@@XXXTENTAClON227 the speculation on a "British nature" isn't necessarily directly implying a basis rooted in DNA.
@@XXXTENTAClON227 I am just jesting tho I am not trying to paint it as any worse than other European colonial powers.
There were benefits to the subject nations of colonialism but I feel there was never in sentiment a feeling of equality but rather exploitation and the benefits were byproducts of selfish pursuit from the colonial powers. That sentiment is what breeds the depth of hate that develops.
@@boysoprano5446 yes I agree with your second comment. That is what differentiates it from fascism; both racist, but imperialism believes they should “govern” and “guide inferior races” also known as the delusion of the “white mans burden”… whereas fascism simply wants them gone, whether through deportation or genocide.
School for snobbery.
I'm honestly shocked a leading university has even entertained such a subject for a debate. Incredibly tactless.
Shout-out to the individual at 35:30 , who is unable to distinguish the United Kingdom from the British Empire. Utterly ignorant of the complexities here in Northern Ireland.
Honest discussion on all topics is what top universities are designed to do. I'm glad they did this debate, because lower level colleges and the masses would've shunned and shamed such an idea.
This is why Cambridge Union Society is so great.
@PrestonSartorius I don't agree with cancel culture either. I'm saying the approach was tactless in my opinion
@@patrickliao2343 'the masses'. Could you sound more up yourself
In a way the situation with Northern Ireland is a direct hangover from the British empire, it’s just another colonial possession
@@ninjacole803 That's just simply not true. It's part of the UK. Ireland was never a colony.
The way they are encouraging the women in the audience to ask questions as though its a problem that only men are asking questions but then no women have any questions. How about you just answer questions regardless of gender you dont need to encourage women to ask questions theyre not being silenced if they have a question then they will ask.
37:58 I hope that was a sarcastic comment and he is not serious about feeling guilty for being white british.
Are you publishing this uber-entitled debate to tarnish the international image of Cambridge University (and the UK)? Because that's what you're doing.
@PrestonSartorius the point is this sort of debate should not even be entertained. Regardless of it being an academic discussion or not.
On the positive side, the "Noes" outnumbered the "Yeses" by about 12:1. The interesting part to me is that more than 10% of the total abstained; why?
@@user-qi5jw2hg1c What? This is how we learn. We have to do it with many subjects. Should we use nuclear weapons or not? That's a horrible thing to debate, but we need to debate it to understand better.
@@dickmonkey-king1271 If you wish to understand it better, then read books about it.
@@user-qi5jw2hg1c Honestly, you live in the wrong time, or the wrong society. I don't know what has infected your mind, but here and now (and for the last few centuries) we have free and open discussions. It's what has allowed us to make so much progress. If you don't like this then there are plenty of countries where you won't be free that you can go and live in.
Maria Dacuda doesn't seem to have a clue about the human civilisation or history but some scraps here and there. She is more like an actress on a stage! 😀
35:18 spot on
35:58 52:57
@26:30 "the first empire instead of just going onto contiguous landmasses but" haha have you never heard of the Chola empire, the Islamic Empires stretching from Spain to Afghanistan, the Ottomans? Even in Europe, Spain and Portugal had overseas empires first. Calm down and read more you silly fool.
At this point she was referencing the 16th century, I don’t think a Professor of the Classics needs to read more and hasn’t heard of even the Islamic and ottoman/Spanish/Portuguese empires
All the improvements in infrastructure, helped colonial interests
continue their practices, i.e. ease of importation.
Those who'd been subjugated obviously benefited by default. It wasn't"altruism,nor was it's creation intended to be a gift.
OK, I’m gonna say something. I had the privilege of growing up in America in the 1970s.
But I have a grandfather. He lost his unit in the battle of the bulge and the only reason I exist is because he had to go find a tree at the right time on Christmas Eve.
My grandfather raised me on Irish songs of rebellion. I Sang about the Foggy Dew before I knew what it meant. Thomas Francis Kenny Here I stand I can do no other.
Those songs are still the favorites of my son to this day.
I have uncles who say to never trust an Englishman.
I can acknowledge the English empire spread concepts of equality, democracy and the rule of law around the world.
The fact that bright eyed and bushy tailed English children want to scream about it, frankly it makes me want to vomit.
You and your ancestors didn’t suffer. My ancestors did.
Two of the oldest photos I have of family members are a member of the Scots guard and the lady in waiting for Queen Victoria. They had to flee to America. Their relationship was not allowed.
So I look at privileged college students in England screaming about the past and I cry out your family was not forged by this. Mine was.
Good God the guy speaking at 50 minutes is completely clueless. He speaks about his grandfather in Cyprus. And how he can only exist right now outside of empire.
Those tools of democracy, rule of law, equality under the law were granted to you by that empire. Your independence to demand those things was granted because that empire pulled back.
That empire enslaved, and I mean that literally a quarter of my heritage. Another quarter of my heritage it swore in the servitude under a uniform and a petticoat. I can still look back at the heritage of that empire that has hurt my family so badly and say that they brought good ideas to the world. So, you privileged or little snot. If you think that you have some moral leg to stand on well I have an Irish Polish German and dutch Scots Irish ass that you can kiss.
Need a tissue?
What's next, "that this house regrets the fall of third Reich"...
Sure. It would trumpet the essence of free speech, freedom to think and openness of 'this house'.
You foolish Baroness, India got democracy under the British. Were the people able to elect any officials in pre-British India?
Many countries in many empires have had puppet governments, nominal elections etc. Has the British empire not done more harm to democracy than good?
@@ninjacole803 Well, not in the case of the British empire in India, the elections weren't nominal and no-one, even at the time, made accusations of corruption in the elections. No, the British empire did more good than harm to democracy in India. Before the Raj, there was no democracy in India's history, the first elections happened under British rule, with the franchise slowly expanding. India today is the world's largest democracy. And Bangladesh and Pakistan have also held fair elections post-Independence, thanks to the long legacy of British rule there.
@@denverbritto5606 my suggestion was not specific to India as using one case of a seemingly positive transition to democracy does not square with the harm the British empire has done to democracy throughout its existence. Is it also inconceivable that India would’ve achieved democracy without the iron hand of British rule? Many other nations were quite capable of democracy without the British exploiting them
The British also took India over from a series of Empires, the Mughal, Sikh and Marathas. Empire was a perfectly acceptable form of government in th C18 th , possibly more popular than the nation state, the idea of which didnt gain credence until napoleon spread the ideals of revolution around Europe.
@PrestonSartorius Wrong, India had provincial governments, local assemblies etc. The Viceroy delegated most responsibilities to the provincial governments. Foreign policy, the military and security were the central government's main responsibilities. Masani talks about this in his speech.
British should see Shashi Tharoor Oxford Union Speech. This Would end the Debate that Brish Empire In India was evil. As Shashi Tharoor Said " No Wonder That The Sun Never Set On The British Empire Because Even God Couldn't Trust the English In The Dark.
Shashi Tharoor's speech was very poor in history. His third rate book has been debunked left and right by many scholars.
@@mudra5114 what's your opinion? Is british empire was good or bad?
@@sidhartharaj9852 Good, most benevolent Empire in history.
@@mudra5114 😂 😂
@@sidhartharaj9852 It's true. 1000 percent. Stopped slavery, stopped Sati, gave rights to lower castes, stopped Pindari dacoits, stopped Thuggees. British Raj, zero corruption. Many many more points.