Keep in mind that some weapons (under different circumstances) or the vulnerability debuff can guarantee crits, which makes crit damage more desirable than crit chance. Also, the more often you hit something, the better it is to have higher crit chance.
It’s just convenient that crit damage is increased by pumping the crit stat as well. There’s outliers for sure but of course this is your general rule of thumb.
Thanks for this, it's really helpful. I usually don't like to dig too deep into the math to keep a bit of intuitive suspension-of-make-belief for a game like this. But since there's no reset possibility (yet?) it's probably a good idea to look a bit behind the curtains so you won't be kicking yourself too much down the line, lol I'm really appreciating all your videos, they've been quite helpful.
I try to make videos catered to basically anyones personal ‘depth’ preferences. So you’ve got some just basic tips and tricks to those full send deep dives 😂 I’m glad you’re enjoying the videos! I’m excited to see where this adventure takes me!
Feel like the very typical Strong Nimble Traits weighting on this subject as well as Stat food being very common and easily utilized being discounted from the math is an oversight. 70-80% damage calculation is also used by very few weapons and is biased towards crit, at 100% stat = damage there wouldn’t be these tipping points which imo is exceedingly common with how many characters utilize Attacks of Opportunity, either through class skills or the very frequently utilized Unstable Oil, all of which deal 100% flat not to mention automatic crits, vulnerability, there are just to many things being discounted creating even more biased towards crit. Trying to do an average calculation of mathematics that vary so incredibly much based on the character build, automatic crit access, vulnerability access, actual average % of strength utilized by the specific character’s abilities on a case by case, ends up not really proving anything at all when the average can’t be applied to any real scenario
An attack of opportunity is a flat percentage attack and is thus the same progression graph as the flat % weapons. I tried to explain that since everything is percentage based and the actual stats across the board are the same the graphs won’t change from a curve perspective, it will only change from the average damage amount. Also I used a 70-80% spread as an example in how to calculate average damage. Every chart covered a different spread, the most common in the game is a 20% spread :) As for not testing vulnerability or other traits, there really isn’t much to see at that point because a +2 to strength will only increase your total damage output by 2% come late game which is the same amount of an increase you’ll see from a crit damage perspective when applying aptitude points into crit.
For me every build is the same, whole crit party with wrongdoer. 14 will + lute buff for 15 will. 14-16 movement, rest crit. The only build I would not go for crit is the one with erkeshet's mace. There is just to much stuff which uses crit and reaching 80+ crit chance on most characters is no problem in the late game even reaching 50% at lvl 8 is no problem. The moment I hear him saying lvl 8, 9, 10 is the "tipping point" for crit sealed the deal. Probably 50% of the game is at those lvls. On top of that as you said all those effects that are not accounted for don't really help the argument.
Modders are finally able to start digging into the files now that there isn't a release every few weeks. I wouldn't be surprised if there's something of the sorts on Nexus soon :)
I really think as cool and as wonderful as this game is, leveling needs to be reworked to be more intuitive as you have some purely Attribute point levels and others that advance your "Main level". Crit being a large factor in scaling in game also seems to make it lackluster to go any other way with toons. Willpower max + crit and your flavor of movement speed + a good item is what most characters are give or take a weapon or two that allows for some flavor. Strength - could be changed to keep its current damage modifier but allow for 1.5-2% crit damage mod per point. Letting items that say allow for extra crits while X status is up for example the sharp fang belt item. Dex - could offer more crit chance than critical hit stats but you end up lacking the crit damage modifier. Could also have an evasion mechanic added to it to simply evade hits at a certain %, maybe capped at 10% for all classes with class perks unlocking higher ceilings. Slippery thieves and all that. Crit chance - should stay how it is, need a middle ground bump at the cost of flat damage to multiply, this is for you! Willpower- Honestly willpower could be a cool stat if they found a use for it above evading death, maybe the heavy armor classes could use it to bolster damage reduction somehow seperate of guard. Destabilization is still a nice hit to your armor but your innate will to power through injuries could yield a more resilient combatant. Constitution - Hit points and carry capacity i believe? I think this stat needs to be more impactful on our mercs somehow, a couple of Hitpoints is not worth the loss in damage nor is it enough at the late game to offset even one good blow. I think it needs work. Movement - does what it says and should be good as is, maybe capped at 20? Anyhow cant wait for future updates and for more diverse build opportunities to come around!
I’m all for a complete overhaul of the balance of the game. I know if there’s official mod support added later I’ll be working with some other members on designing and balancing a complete conversion mod.
Great job on posting it so quickly. My only minuscule nitpick is that I'm not sure if the level 1 STR characters have 3% crit chance because they get one at Dex 1, Dex 2, and Will 6 vs Will 10 :P since Will gives CritHit at 11, 16, 21, 26 etc moving forward. Of course this absolute minuscule nitpick would only have any value when looking at recruiting Depressed or low Willpower characters. ... and since that was my only nitpick, awesome video.
I think everyone starts with a raw base of 3% critical hit. Then you add in the Will as you ponted out, so everyone starts with 4%. Then for DEX you get 1% Critical Hit chance for each 7 points of DEX. And 1 % critical Damage point for each 4 points of the STR plus the starting 25 points. So I feel his math is confounded by adding in weapon damages. or a new patch.
After I took a second view on this important vid ... :) Did you take into account that auto crit builds (strength and medium armor based) completely shrug off all of your troubles pumping critical hit chance? That makes your 30% critical hit damage from strength (compared to a laboriously increased critical hit chance via dex) just more valuable. Also there are some +5% strength perks (strong, brave, lively) that kick in after (!) all strength boni from weapons, professions, equipment and further passive stat increases through lvl-ups are summed up altogether. This synergizes up easiliy to another +>25 strength in endgame builds. (Dex has these advantages, too, but here I compare str to critical hit again.) And even +% critical hit (damage & chance) is partly dependent on raw strength (even if strength progresses only with ^0,6 compared to ^1,0 of critical hit damage itself). But since critical hit damage also inherits quite a bunch of "normal damage output", plain and base (1)25% from critical hit damage profit right from the start from raw strength (+15% via strength perks solely in the second row). Therefor "only" every further +1% over base 125% profits form ^1,0 instead of ^0,6. At all, we speak of 11 lvl-ups (22 points) and fast training (2 points) and an earned title (2 points). You might invest 4-6 of this 26 points into movement, so there are about +20str/+20dex vs. +20% critical hit (damage & chance) to be allocated. Well, apart from decisions on equipment and professions of course (but you can change those while allocated aptitude points are irreversibly spent). Thanks for your great work on these matters!
All of the math on this video was ONLY taking into account raw aptitude points from level ups. This means all traits, skills, or buffs were not taken into account. Adding in all the different variables would have taken forever to actually get the spreadsheets made for, but also in a direct side by side comparison, a 5% increase to STR to either unit will still yield the same curve since both units will receive the same bonus. There were similar questions brought up in the official Wartales discord around the time this video was published and I did a little extra number crunching but it honestly skewed even more in favor for allocating your level up points to crit. The actual optimal way to invest points is to use level up points for Crit (since professions and layers for crit don't actually improve crit damage) and then patch up your damage stat and movement through professions and armor layers. Of course, you don't really need to invest in willpower or movement in order to completely wipe everyone, and all of this debate is really a moot point since the game is pretty easy and no min maxing is required.
@@clydian I know and accept the fact you solely took raw aptitude points form lvl-ups into account. And even if it distorts the maths (and could lead to a different outcome in the hard race for the "best stat to raise"), we differ only on small and little side matters (and that's perfectly ok with me). E.g. the best profession for str is blacksmith (+12 str +15% = 13,8 ^0,6 = 8,28) and therefor it buffs critical hit damage indirectly. But, you're right, there is no profession for solely critical hit damage, only for critical hit chance (what is irrelevant to at least auto crit builds). So professions do matter. But to be fair it's the tiny difference of 15% extra strength (2 strength for professional purposes and about 1 point of extra damage) that shift the "balance" in this particular case.
Close but not quite, if you go ONLY crit it doesn’t start paying off/outperforming STR/DEX until around levels 10+ What I personally do is use level up allocations to crit and use layers and professions for raw damage stats.
It would be interesting to see the raw numbers. Like how many levels did you put the stats in willpower or movement. so then the take over moves from level 10-11 to 13 or 14 or never.
I used straight levels into only STR/DEX or CRIT. I didn’t allocate any level points to either movement or willpower. Willpower does give minor crit chance bonuses, but the crit stat is better since it gives both crit chance and crit damage.
In the super late game sense, yes. But this is on level up allocations. Crit chance increases from armor layers and items does not have the same impact since you’re not getting crit chance AND crit damage increase from the items. Ultimately you’ll want to increase crit for level ups and use layers for str/dex and movement.
I think it feels a little underwhelming because you're only looking at aptitude points gained from leveling up. Because of its exponential nature, 1 or 2 more aptitude points past lvl 11 mark will really start to show a much bigger difference between str and crit builds. Sure, it doesn't look like much on the graph shown, but keep going 1 or 2 more aptitude points and I'm sure the gap will increase much more and become more pronounced. Additionally, there's also the innate advantage that some weapons/skills have different behavior when you crit. Like the Warrior getting fury on crit and the purple bow pushing enemies back on crit, and archers applying bleeding on crit, etc. It might look underwhelming from this video and not worth it at first glance, but it actually really is.
Yep, I just wanted to remove all the extra variables and go into a raw number calculation because there wasn’t going to be a way for me to easily cram every variable into a 20 minute video 😂
Sorry about that! The prep and editing that would have taken for a side by side for crit versus flat damage for just a single graph’s worth of data would have taken forever 😅 I’m not planning on doing another deep dive into math of a game like this in the future though :)
Complete garbage. Since weapons give you your base stat (str or dex), and they add far more then you can ever get in lvl up. Adding crit on lvl up always, always outperforms increasing your base stat. On top of that movement gives huge strategic advantage making it the second priority stat and if you are afraid of loosing units getting WIL to 15. What a waste of time this video was.
In the grand scheme of things, crit will outscale your main damage stat, but for early levels increasing your main damage stat will give more immediate returns since it is a higher % increase to your main stat. Thank you for the view.
@@clydian yeah see you just come back to show you have no clue about what you are saying. If you choose the stats for the early levels then you miss later on having chosen crit, speed, will from the start. Unless i remember incorrectly that you cannot go back and re-specc your stats. The trade off for the early lvl boost will make your late game units worse.
@@parkla4098 The actual differences in damage from one or two level allocations are so small that either allocation is fine. You can beat the game without allocating any aptitude points, so whatever works best for your play style and what you enjoy playing should be your priority.
Keep in mind that some weapons (under different circumstances) or the vulnerability debuff can guarantee crits, which makes crit damage more desirable than crit chance. Also, the more often you hit something, the better it is to have higher crit chance.
It’s just convenient that crit damage is increased by pumping the crit stat as well. There’s outliers for sure but of course this is your general rule of thumb.
Thanks for the analysis Clydian Fayre and Dorim. Looking forward to more Wartales videos in the future.
Anytime my dude!
It was informative and deep. Well done! I am sure, it is exactly what so many people wanted to know earlier.
Thank you!
Gracias amigo por tomarte el tiempo de hacer el video!
@@peterowline No hay problema, ¡me alegro que lo hayas disfrutado!
Thanks for this, it's really helpful. I usually don't like to dig too deep into the math to keep a bit of intuitive suspension-of-make-belief for a game like this. But since there's no reset possibility (yet?) it's probably a good idea to look a bit behind the curtains so you won't be kicking yourself too much down the line, lol
I'm really appreciating all your videos, they've been quite helpful.
I try to make videos catered to basically anyones personal ‘depth’ preferences. So you’ve got some just basic tips and tricks to those full send deep dives 😂
I’m glad you’re enjoying the videos! I’m excited to see where this adventure takes me!
Feel like the very typical Strong Nimble Traits weighting on this subject as well as Stat food being very common and easily utilized being discounted from the math is an oversight. 70-80% damage calculation is also used by very few weapons and is biased towards crit, at 100% stat = damage there wouldn’t be these tipping points which imo is exceedingly common with how many characters utilize Attacks of Opportunity, either through class skills or the very frequently utilized Unstable Oil, all of which deal 100% flat not to mention automatic crits, vulnerability, there are just to many things being discounted creating even more biased towards crit. Trying to do an average calculation of mathematics that vary so incredibly much based on the character build, automatic crit access, vulnerability access, actual average % of strength utilized by the specific character’s abilities on a case by case, ends up not really proving anything at all when the average can’t be applied to any real scenario
An attack of opportunity is a flat percentage attack and is thus the same progression graph as the flat % weapons. I tried to explain that since everything is percentage based and the actual stats across the board are the same the graphs won’t change from a curve perspective, it will only change from the average damage amount.
Also I used a 70-80% spread as an example in how to calculate average damage. Every chart covered a different spread, the most common in the game is a 20% spread :)
As for not testing vulnerability or other traits, there really isn’t much to see at that point because a +2 to strength will only increase your total damage output by 2% come late game which is the same amount of an increase you’ll see from a crit damage perspective when applying aptitude points into crit.
For me every build is the same, whole crit party with wrongdoer. 14 will + lute buff for 15 will. 14-16 movement, rest crit. The only build I would not go for crit is the one with erkeshet's mace.
There is just to much stuff which uses crit and reaching 80+ crit chance on most characters is no problem in the late game even reaching 50% at lvl 8 is no problem. The moment I hear him saying lvl 8, 9, 10 is the "tipping point" for crit sealed the deal. Probably 50% of the game is at those lvls.
On top of that as you said all those effects that are not accounted for don't really help the argument.
I dont understand how there isn't a "save edit"-like mod for this game yet... I really would love to be able to reset my stats 😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭
Modders are finally able to start digging into the files now that there isn't a release every few weeks. I wouldn't be surprised if there's something of the sorts on Nexus soon :)
@@clydian Interesting... thanks ^^
I really think as cool and as wonderful as this game is, leveling needs to be reworked to be more intuitive as you have some purely Attribute point levels and others that advance your "Main level". Crit being a large factor in scaling in game also seems to make it lackluster to go any other way with toons. Willpower max + crit and your flavor of movement speed + a good item is what most characters are give or take a weapon or two that allows for some flavor.
Strength - could be changed to keep its current damage modifier but allow for 1.5-2% crit damage mod per point. Letting items that say allow for extra crits while X status is up for example the sharp fang belt item.
Dex - could offer more crit chance than critical hit stats but you end up lacking the crit damage modifier. Could also have an evasion mechanic added to it to simply evade hits at a certain %, maybe capped at 10% for all classes with class perks unlocking higher ceilings. Slippery thieves and all that.
Crit chance - should stay how it is, need a middle ground bump at the cost of flat damage to multiply, this is for you!
Willpower- Honestly willpower could be a cool stat if they found a use for it above evading death, maybe the heavy armor classes could use it to bolster damage reduction somehow seperate of guard. Destabilization is still a nice hit to your armor but your innate will to power through injuries could yield a more resilient combatant.
Constitution - Hit points and carry capacity i believe? I think this stat needs to be more impactful on our mercs somehow, a couple of Hitpoints is not worth the loss in damage nor is it enough at the late game to offset even one good blow. I think it needs work.
Movement - does what it says and should be good as is, maybe capped at 20?
Anyhow cant wait for future updates and for more diverse build opportunities to come around!
I’m all for a complete overhaul of the balance of the game. I know if there’s official mod support added later I’ll be working with some other members on designing and balancing a complete conversion mod.
Great job on posting it so quickly.
My only minuscule nitpick is that I'm not sure if the level 1 STR characters have 3% crit chance because they get one at Dex 1, Dex 2, and Will 6 vs Will 10 :P since Will gives CritHit at 11, 16, 21, 26 etc moving forward. Of course this absolute minuscule nitpick would only have any value when looking at recruiting Depressed or low Willpower characters.
... and since that was my only nitpick, awesome video.
I used completely naked units with no traits from level 1 to 12 to get my stats for the calculations :)
I think everyone starts with a raw base of 3% critical hit. Then you add in the Will as you ponted out, so everyone starts with 4%. Then for DEX you get 1% Critical Hit chance for each 7 points of DEX. And 1 % critical Damage point for each 4 points of the STR plus the starting 25 points. So I feel his math is confounded by adding in weapon damages. or a new patch.
After I took a second view on this important vid ... :)
Did you take into account that auto crit builds (strength and medium armor based) completely shrug off all of your troubles pumping critical hit chance?
That makes your 30% critical hit damage from strength (compared to a laboriously increased critical hit chance via dex) just more valuable.
Also there are some +5% strength perks (strong, brave, lively) that kick in after (!) all strength boni from weapons, professions, equipment and further passive stat increases through lvl-ups are summed up altogether. This synergizes up easiliy to another +>25 strength in endgame builds. (Dex has these advantages, too, but here I compare str to critical hit again.)
And even +% critical hit (damage & chance) is partly dependent on raw strength (even if strength progresses only with ^0,6 compared to ^1,0 of critical hit damage itself).
But since critical hit damage also inherits quite a bunch of "normal damage output", plain and base (1)25% from critical hit damage profit right from the start from raw strength (+15% via strength perks solely in the second row). Therefor "only" every further +1% over base 125% profits form ^1,0 instead of ^0,6.
At all, we speak of 11 lvl-ups (22 points) and fast training (2 points) and an earned title (2 points). You might invest 4-6 of this 26 points into movement, so there are about +20str/+20dex vs. +20% critical hit (damage & chance) to be allocated. Well, apart from decisions on equipment and professions of course (but you can change those while allocated aptitude points are irreversibly spent).
Thanks for your great work on these matters!
All of the math on this video was ONLY taking into account raw aptitude points from level ups. This means all traits, skills, or buffs were not taken into account. Adding in all the different variables would have taken forever to actually get the spreadsheets made for, but also in a direct side by side comparison, a 5% increase to STR to either unit will still yield the same curve since both units will receive the same bonus.
There were similar questions brought up in the official Wartales discord around the time this video was published and I did a little extra number crunching but it honestly skewed even more in favor for allocating your level up points to crit.
The actual optimal way to invest points is to use level up points for Crit (since professions and layers for crit don't actually improve crit damage) and then patch up your damage stat and movement through professions and armor layers.
Of course, you don't really need to invest in willpower or movement in order to completely wipe everyone, and all of this debate is really a moot point since the game is pretty easy and no min maxing is required.
@@clydian I know and accept the fact you solely took raw aptitude points form lvl-ups into account. And even if it distorts the maths (and could lead to a different outcome in the hard race for the "best stat to raise"), we differ only on small and little side matters (and that's perfectly ok with me).
E.g. the best profession for str is blacksmith (+12 str +15% = 13,8 ^0,6 = 8,28) and therefor it buffs critical hit damage indirectly.
But, you're right, there is no profession for solely critical hit damage, only for critical hit chance (what is irrelevant to at least auto crit builds).
So professions do matter.
But to be fair it's the tiny difference of 15% extra strength (2 strength for professional purposes and about 1 point of extra damage) that shift the "balance" in this particular case.
So if I get this right, on avg we should go with stats (Str/Dex) until lvls 8-9 and then respec into Crit chance. Right?
Close but not quite, if you go ONLY crit it doesn’t start paying off/outperforming STR/DEX until around levels 10+
What I personally do is use level up allocations to crit and use layers and professions for raw damage stats.
On multi hit weapons, like the pike that hits 4 times, does each strike have a chance to crit? Its seems like it does from watching damage fly outs.
Yes each attack from multi attacks (legion pike, berserker’s rampage, clinks sword) have their own individual change to crit.
It would be interesting to see the raw numbers. Like how many levels did you put the stats in willpower or movement. so then the take over moves from level 10-11 to 13 or 14 or never.
I used straight levels into only STR/DEX or CRIT. I didn’t allocate any level points to either movement or willpower. Willpower does give minor crit chance bonuses, but the crit stat is better since it gives both crit chance and crit damage.
The link to the data is broken, do the spreadsheets exist somewhere else now?
Ill try and hunt down the data I logged. Dorim’s guide is no longer up.
So, investing in CRIT chance results in better dmg overal?
In the super late game sense, yes. But this is on level up allocations. Crit chance increases from armor layers and items does not have the same impact since you’re not getting crit chance AND crit damage increase from the items.
Ultimately you’ll want to increase crit for level ups and use layers for str/dex and movement.
Got it, thank you. It makes sense. I noticed that once I hit level 7...but I still wasn't sure. Thank you!@@clydian
@@prof.victormartins7762 anytime my dude!
I think it feels a little underwhelming because you're only looking at aptitude points gained from leveling up. Because of its exponential nature, 1 or 2 more aptitude points past lvl 11 mark will really start to show a much bigger difference between str and crit builds. Sure, it doesn't look like much on the graph shown, but keep going 1 or 2 more aptitude points and I'm sure the gap will increase much more and become more pronounced.
Additionally, there's also the innate advantage that some weapons/skills have different behavior when you crit. Like the Warrior getting fury on crit and the purple bow pushing enemies back on crit, and archers applying bleeding on crit, etc.
It might look underwhelming from this video and not worth it at first glance, but it actually really is.
Yep, I just wanted to remove all the extra variables and go into a raw number calculation because there wasn’t going to be a way for me to easily cram every variable into a 20 minute video 😂
@@clydian honestly respect. It's a great video and I learned so much from it. I feel like I didn't portray that in my comment 😅
@@majdodeh2733 no worries my dude! I appreciate you!
War Pony guide when? I kid XD
I have a feeling a War Pony challenge run is going to be on the horizon at some point
Way too little gameplay recordings. Please give some visuals.
Sorry about that! The prep and editing that would have taken for a side by side for crit versus flat damage for just a single graph’s worth of data would have taken forever 😅
I’m not planning on doing another deep dive into math of a game like this in the future though :)
@@clydian It is okay. Just a wild request. Good quality video.
@@nevrynkinori3627 I still appreciate the feedback! Helps me make better content in the future :)
clickbait title is cringe
Ahhh you got me, them AI titles don’t really help. I was more focused on getting the video published than making a title, I’ll have it changed soon 😂
Complete garbage. Since weapons give you your base stat (str or dex), and they add far more then you can ever get in lvl up. Adding crit on lvl up always, always outperforms increasing your base stat.
On top of that movement gives huge strategic advantage making it the second priority stat and if you are afraid of loosing units getting WIL to 15.
What a waste of time this video was.
In the grand scheme of things, crit will outscale your main damage stat, but for early levels increasing your main damage stat will give more immediate returns since it is a higher % increase to your main stat.
Thank you for the view.
@@clydian yeah see you just come back to show you have no clue about what you are saying. If you choose the stats for the early levels then you miss later on having chosen crit, speed, will from the start. Unless i remember incorrectly that you cannot go back and re-specc your stats.
The trade off for the early lvl boost will make your late game units worse.
@@parkla4098 The actual differences in damage from one or two level allocations are so small that either allocation is fine. You can beat the game without allocating any aptitude points, so whatever works best for your play style and what you enjoy playing should be your priority.