while we're here: Chris Brown beat the absolute hell out of Rihanna and didn't really change as a person since and it bothers me that generally no one has cared.
If you really think about it though, and not even think all that much because he constantly whines about it, Chris’ career never recovered in the context of where he was and where he was otherwise headed. He was more than a household name, he was an undisputed icon from the generation in that music genre. He went from that to just an R&B artist, a megastar to an extent but mostly only amongst his core supporters. The casual fans and people who just liked a couple songs did not support him to the same extent after and he now whines online about being overlooked for awards, recognition, and stature in the industry. That says everything right there, especially when you add in that he always throws in his two cents whenever there’s a domestic abuse allegation concerning an entertainer 🤷♂️. He regrets losing all the buzz he lost but he still doesn’t regret his actual behavior nor the toxicity behind it, and for that he’ll forever remain an afterthought to those of us not tied to the notion he can do no wrong because he dances and sings well.
Not only does no one care, he literally has repeated that behavior over and over again and his entire fanbase just goes “nuh uh, no he hasn’t.” You can look up Brown’s entire history of violence with women, it’s out there and easy to find.
@@JME1186 I see your point but I think his decline in popularity also just has to do with more artists taking up his niche in the genre and doing it better than him so when combined with his violent abuse the industry just moved more away from him, but not completely of course he’s still doing fine but not as well as he was before
"He clearly can't deal with people telling him no, but he swears he's a free thinker" is not only a perfect way to describe Kanye but also a majority of his defenders
@@TotallyNotKanyei think the idea here is that part of being a free thinker includes having a mind open enough to genuinely consider other possibilities. on the one hand, if you can't stick to your own convictions and go against the grain you're definitely not a free thinker. but on the other hand, refusing to listen to other's inputs or perspective and always convincing yourself that you're right, or only listening to people who yes man you, you also can't be a free thinker because you're still trapping yourself in such a limited perspective. ideally you can actually take other people's inputs and evolve your own perspective/ideas further from that.
Art is based on context. I don’t think the artist needs to be a moral exemplar to appreciate their work, but as always, we have to remain conscious and educated. We can’t pretend art lives separate from reality.
But judging art based on the life and actions of the artist even when those actions are not used as text or sub text in the artist work is pure moral grandstanding. I consider this usually a cultural trope from the USA, obssesing over being one of the good guys.
@@midnighter2k This isn't just a USA thing. In South Korea, Kpop idols' work is usually stripped from airwaves and cease promotion as soon as the idol loses favor morally and socially. So it happens in other countries, too. It's just what is considered unacceptable socially and morally varies according to culture, and the USA is the loudest because the world is more aware of what's going on in the country due to their forced western influence through media. People also should be able to analyze whether the art is connected to the artist possibly in ways initially unseen, and whether it fits in with their worldview and lifestyle.
@GenerationNextNextNext I am not saying that USA is the only one that can cancels artist. Any public figure is one slip away from being critized. That's why they have publicists and media managers. But the USA people are more obsessed with moraly grandstanding and not wanting to be associated with people with "moraly reprehensible behavior." It's true, free speech is not free of consequences. But in the USA there are people celebrating their moral superiority of not consuming art from a problematic dead dude.
Here's the thing about separating the artist from the art - it's real easy if the artist is dead. At that point, the harm they can do is done. Living people? Their art, especially commercial art, exists in the same context where they're actively out there doing the harmful shit, maybe using support of their art as an excuse for getting to continue the harmful shit. I think there's more of a convo there.
Agreed! That divide between past, finished harm and potential continuing harm is significant. A number of Marilyn Manson's initial albums spoke to my young, "warlike autistic" self DIRECTLY when they came out; now, today, I'm mad I gave that drugged-up, abusive asshole my "back then" money-while feeling the absence of that connection to my past self. I'm still a hand grenade that never stopped exploding, tho.
It's not always the case that the harm an artist can do is finished after their passing. There is racist music from the past that continues to find an audience today, there are portrayals of antisemitic lies in books and plays, there is art that is propaganda, like _Atlas Shrugged._
It’s kinda difficult to separate art from the artist when he’s got antisemitic bars on the songs. In Kanye’s case, it’s not just the context surrounding the art itself that is bigoted, it’s the text itself.
The problem with artist vs individual is that both have the same bank account. That’s mostly why I have a hard time with the seperation between the art and the artist.
I have a cousin who's in music and he broke down music distribution to me. Understand that when you spend money on music, it doesn't just go into the hands of the artist but the entire team who helped to create that song. I make it a general rule not to punish everyone for the work of one. Plus, if I stay logically consistent then I'd never be able to listen to anything since I don't know anyone but Christ who I agree with 100%.
I can usually separate the art from the artist, but I can't be listening to R Kelly singing love songs when I know he's thinking about teenage girls he abused while singing those songs.
Rkelly is the one that really gets me the most. Because most of these people will acknowledge he’s not into adult women so they know these songs are about abused children and they have sex to these songs. Like it’s insane to me
Everybody in Chicago knew about R. Kelly and his BS, but no one ever spoke on it. People were literally selling the bootlegs of it at every street corner.
The way people treated the R. Kelly tape like it was just some sex tape... I remember listening to morning radio DJs in the 2000s boasting that they saw the tape like it wasn't literal exploitation
Better not listen to Death Certificate by Cube or Return to the 36 Chambers by ODB. Or about 100 other LPs from artists ranging from Zeppelin to Bowie. The content of the music and the content is of the characters would have some of you in a tizz. Me personally, I am happy to listen to the music.
@@alexanderguerrero347 The problem there is Benoit Blanc is in a room full of idiots and an opportunist taking advantage of them after having used them in the first place.
@@alexanderguerrero347i mean tbf in that movie the whole thing is that they were all stupidly enamored with miles and listened to everything he said, except for benoit and helen who actually recognized him to be an idiot
As a bipolar person, I say this every time someone brings up Kanye: I have no sympathy for bipolar people who have access to every mental health resource but refuse to use them. Without insurance, my therapy and psychiatry appointments are several hundred dollars a month and my meds would be almost a thousand. Kanye is one of the incredibly privileged people that could afford treatment in our broken healthcare system. When I was first diagnosed I was non-compliant with taking meds but after several years going off the deep end, I realized that I needed them to be stable. Kanye is in his 40s. You can tell he is severely detached from reality and everyone around him is enabling him. I also can’t believe this is the same man who wrote Diamonds from Sierra Leone.
Yeah I agree with you, we shouldn't condemn people for having mental health struggles but at some point you need to see how it affects your life and the people around you.
Every point you mentioned I agree with. I sacrifice a lot to be able to pay for my mental health care. He had a loving and supportive family and nothing but money now. Despite the enablers, he could have gotten help years ago.
If you are severely mentally ill and you have a bunch of people around you telling you that you're okay. And you are as far gone as Kanye is, you're going to believe them. At this point the only way Kanye will ever get well is to get away from those people. And right now these people are feeding his ego and his delusions way too much for that to happen.
I think there's kind of the Michael Jackson factor going on with Kanye. By which I mean, Michael clearly didn't like the way he looked, but if he'd been broke he'd have just had to live with it and maybe have ended up dealing with it in a healthier way, but the fact he had huge amounts of disposable income meant he was never forced to come to terms with it and could indulge his craziness more and more and get sicker and sicker. I feel like the same thing has happened with Kanye. Yeah normal bipolar people don't do this shit, but normal bipolar people simply don't have the resources to entirely surround themselves with yes-men 24/7 and banish anyone who breathes wrong and do what they want all day every day and basically seal themselves off in this little crazy bubble. So money has allowed him to get crazy to a level that regular people just can't.
I remember the house republicans Twitter making a tweet that said "Kanye. Elon. Trump." And they were honestly 100% correct with that comparison. These are all just dumb guys that convinced a ton of other dumb guys that they are geniuses because they have a lot of money. In a conservative mindset, having money means you are smart and strong enough to get that money. So any bad takes or dumb things that these idiots do, the fans insist that they are just executing some elaborate plan that no one else could've thought of or done.
sure theyre not groundbreaking geniuses but to say they are dumb is insane and completely reductionist and shows a lack of critical thinking from you. if you represent liberal/left-field ideologies please dont represent them publicly as im sure you would give them a bad name of ignorance. though im not a republican.
The difference is that Kanye at one point wasn’t a complete dumbass and WAS a genius, elon and trump on the other hand were never even smart to begin with
I used to be a huge Staind fan as a kid, their music really helped me through some hard times and helped me process some stuff about my parents. But now he’s out here questioning my right to exist and talking like the very father I hate. I think you should never separate the art from the artist because no matter how they helped you in the past, the harm they do now is far more substantial.
Eh looking back at all the suburban white guy angst from nu metal it's not very suprising what happened to those types of bands. I mean who did we think all those jenko wearing juggalos would become in their 40s and 50s?
@@plaidchuck Maybe Juggalo is not the right word considering what the ICP tries to do with their community and fanbase, making the Juggalos are more positive being. Somebody like Kid Rock on the other hand was always a vulture, whose pivoted from genre from genre to where could be the most successful and now has made his brand about satisfying himself through the patriotic lens.
I straight up won't separate the at from the artist. I don't really do nostalgia, though, so I might just be wired weird. But I don't care how much I might've enjoyed to work of someone, if it turns out they're terrible people then I'm immediately done with them. Full stop. I try treating my time and attention like valuable resources, like I feel most people should. And if it comes out that someone I enjoy is secretly terrible, I'm not giving them any time or attention at all. They're just clearly not worth it to me.
separating art from the artist is a luxury. Just like. being "apolitical". when the artist is causing real harm (see Rowling....) them we gotta step back.
You can condemn the actions while loving the art from one same person tho. It's not adversarial itself or necessarily used as a cover up so no it's not a luxury. If you fake not having an opinion about the actions and claims to only care about the art then yes it's luxury you take to avoid the real talk.
Some advice I wish all artists would live by is, "don't record your midlife crisis", but this dude has been going through a midlife crisis for over a decade.
My most poignant can't separate art from artist moment remains Cosby. I'm in the generation that adored Cosby; I still have his skits memorized in my head. But I don't quote them and I'll never listen to them again. Because SA with drugs of dozens of women is Right Out. Now I think back on a few of those skits and I think "Yeah, the dentist sketch was hysterical, but he liked to joke an awful lot about being sorta harsh to his kids. Maybe I shoulda seen it back then."
I want the version of A Different World the great Debbie Allen envisioned where Denise has a baby and juggles motherhood and college 😔 I also liked Marisa Tomei and a lot of work addressing ⚪️ feminism could have been done with her character and we could have moved the ball a decade forward.
Better not listen to Death Certificate by Cube or Return to the 36 Chambers by ODB. Or about 100 other LPs from artists ranging from Zeppelin to Bowie. The content of the music and the content is of the characters would have some of you in a tizz. Me personally, I am happy to listen to the music.
@@JenSell1626 I allowed myself to go back to A Different World last year, relative to dropping Cosby, and the wasted potential of that cast (and presumably crew) was worse than I remembered.
A wrestling podcaster I listen to said it’s hard to separate the art from the artist when the art is informed and influenced by the things the artist is being judged for
@@thing_under_the_stairs I know he said he's a Slipknot fan. I'm not too surprised about the love for TOOL. He doesn't exactly fit the description. Most Black dudes into alternative are going to look a certain way. Many of times alternative people are gonna be very goth or punk rock in appearance. For instance I'll see most Blacks rocking a very clean Nirvana shirt with designer jeans and some J's🤣
Exactly. The “45% of all art” argument, much as I love FD, doesn’t work because most of those problematic artists are dead and cannot cause further harm.
So by that logic you could buy a Hitler's painting during the 3rd reich from a 3rd person and you will be golden. Nobody could judge you. Same way you could get a Gacy painting from when he was in prison, he wasn't using what he earned from that for anything, he was already in prison. Don't worry i believe in separating the art from the artist with much less arbitrary rules. So keep it up, you are getting there, just put more effort and intellect into it. Your generation seems to need more people with the criticla thinking skills to separate art from the artist.
you pointed out succinctly what the true reality is in regards to this complex topic. everything does depend on you and the artist, your pleasures and what the artist has done. there’s also a point of lack of information, you won’t always know everything the artist has done.
This is so perfect! Especially as an artist, I find it so fascinating when people want to “separate the art”, knowing full well I am bringing my *full self* to my art. And any statements suggesting otherwise feels like willful ignorance
It was a sweet balance of aiming for the stars and being self-aware, of bravado and vulnerability. Now it's so much bravado that it makes him look even weaker and faker. It's like Drake, except Drake is admittedly more consistently mid while Kanye has the potential for better in him.
i didn't know how essential he was to writing Kanye's greatest songs: Some of the songs he has co-written with Kanye include: - "Jesus Walks" - "New Slaves" - "Black Skinhead" - "All Falls Down" - "All Day" - "All Mine" - "All of the Lights" - "Blood on the Leaves" - "Bound 2" - "Champion" - "Clique" - "Famous" - "Feedback" - "Gorgeous" - "No More Parties in LA" - "Wash Us in the Blood" This is not an exhaustive list, but it includes some of the notable songs co-written by Rhymefest
yeah, but I think his reasoning is dumb. the bleach line actually contrasts the humanity and vanity and introduces the duality of TLOP on a gospel track
Better not listen to Death Certificate by Cube or Return to the 36 Chambers by ODB. Or about 100 other LPs from artists ranging from Zeppelin to Bowie. The content of the music and the content is of the characters would have some of you in a tizz. Me personally, I am happy to listen to the music.
100% facts on connecting Kanye to a specific time. I listened to College Dropout 3-5 times a day while finishing my dissertation. Late Registration came out my first week as a professor. My career progressed as his did. But I matured and he didn’t.
This has been a big point of discussion in the metal underground for a long time now. In the mid to late 80s, there was a prominent black metal group called Mayhem. The group had a series of controversies, but one of the major ones was one of the members murdering another member. That murderer (also antisemite), Varg Vikernes, went on to create some of the most foundationally influential black metal from prison. In his wake, a subsect of fascist/neo-Nazi/WS black metal has grown, with an actively anti-fascist movement to counter them. While most people agree Varg is a terrible person and the world would be better off without him, the metal community has remained split on whether or not to separate the art from the artist, with many saying yes and many saying no. I personally see all art as autobiographical in nature, at least to some degree, and I'm not willing to enable a hateful person by supporting their art. Edit: Varg Vikernes created his music not from prison, but prior to the murder and his subsequent imprisonment. Thanks to @whym6438 for the correction.
Angry Metal Guy has a great article on this whole dilemma that goes into the actual statistics of how supporting these types of bands causes real world harm to certain groups.
You are facing the "One Nazi In The Bar" scenario. You have to immediately expel that one semi-reasonable Nazi or he brings his Nazi friends, and your bar becomes a Nazi bar over time. This is what happened to your death metal. You kept letting the Nazi do his thing in your genre, and now it's his genre. EDIT: For my part. I've always thought of Kanye as a decent journeyman producer who broke his jaw and decided to rap and one of his friends said "HAHAHAH Yeah you sound great rapping right now HAHAHAH!" And Kanye said "Yes. I *AM* the best rapper ever, you're right!" My favorite Kanye track is the version of "Classic" on youtube that removed his verse entirely. THE FUCK WAS HE ON THAT TRACK WITH THOSE MURDERERS ANYWAY!?!? P! That P just popped up somehow, but I did mention lyrical murderers.
It’s hella hard for me to listen to Kanye now. A lot of my friends listen to him pretty effortlessly, but when I listen to him all I hear is a man who is slowly and slowly becoming crazier and crazier. The fact that somebody like Kanye, who used to stand up against homophobia can effortlessly say he is inspired by Hitler is insane. Man even now with Dave Chappelle’s weird transphobic jokes it feels like everybody isn’t the saint they used to be.
@@jayloncollins9681 what's that make you, a keyboard warrior? this the youtube comments section man, I understand you CAN but why you feel like you GOTTA lash out at people just saying their piece?
@@TheAngryBeard bro Kanye is allowed to have an opinion. Even if it’s one that’s not align with yours or most other people. The thing is with people like you the commenter and FD is that they don’t give his opinions any context and just write him off as crazy. I do think Kanye likes to be controversial however I don’t think he’s crazy. Despite the things he’s said about Hitler Slavery or whatever he’s very much still in support of black lives and is fighting for black lives right now. Nobody talks about the many positive things he’s done for Chicago or the many black artist that he’s opened doors for and birthed entire multi million dollar careers in fashion and music. Who’s FD to even comment on art ? He doesn’t understand art on a basic level. He’s a teacher who blatantly doesn’t provide context to some of the points he makes in his videos. Like I said don’t be a moral monster. Not listening to Kanye but listening to actual murders is stupid. All because he thinks Jewish people shouldn’t own black rights.
RIGHT. I thought Kanye was a fckn champ for just calling the president out during Katrina, too, but now he's just fully unhinged and it makes anything cool he ever did feel a little deflated. Chappelle also felt like he could run circles around racists but he's just found his own old-man bigotry to settle into now.
I used to think I could separate the art from the artist themself, but it always gnawed at my soul that I was still listening to people and technically giving them money. Then I realized I can always find other artists in the same genre who, at the very least, don't spout hateful rhetoric and still make good music. At the same time I can hope from afar that the person I stopped listening to will have some long conversations over their beliefs and/or learn from their actions.
See, that's where I'm at too, there are no artists that are _so_ much better than everybody else that I can't just... replace them with non-bigoted people. JK Rowling is horribly anti-trans, so Harry Potter is out and a million other magical fantasy series by authors just as good (and better than!) her are in. (Basically) Every band that ever played Warped Tour has had shit come out about them fucking with minors on tour, so they're all out and new indies are in. It ain't that hard.
@davidlaush180 huge agree !!! I always hated when people said separate the art from the artist because regardless If your listening to their music, commissioning them, buying merchandise, constantly talking about them and recommending them to friends your still supporting the artist at the end of the day. I wish people would just be like "yeah I know he's a shitty person, but I like the music, so 🤷♀️" then jump through these kinds of hoops
Yeah there's too many options for media now to lock yourself into something you feel bad about. Not just Kanye. I mean TV, Games, Movies, Music, hell shoes.
Kanye's career is like a Greek tragedy. The same pride that helped him gain success has resulted in his destruction. When you listen to the music and watch the man, it's clear in both cases that Kanye has lost his soul.
i like what picasso says about art, “The purpose of art is washing the dust of daily life off our souls.” which is why i personally don’t find separating the art from the artist to be all that helpful in understanding and connecting to a piece. i think art is an escape and depending on who/ what they escape to definitely shapes my view of an artist and their art.
“Poopity Scoop” was Kanye ruining a beat that Drake REALLY wanted. He figured that destroying the song was the biggest eff you possible to his former protege.
Better not listen to Death Certificate by Cube or Return to the 36 Chambers by ODB. Or about 100 other LPs from artists ranging from Zeppelin to Bowie. The content of the music and the content is of the characters would have some of you in a tizz. Me personally, I am happy to listen to the music.
I think it's the opposite. People find it easier to separate the art from the artist when the art is good. It's easy for people to say "You can't separate the art from the artist" when the art is crap anyway. They get to feel morally superior while not actually sacrificing anything. But when the art is good, they find reasons to justify still consuming it even though they know the person creating that art is bad, so suddenly separating the art from the artist seems like a great idea--especially if the artist is still alive.
I think separating the art from the artist is a valid and necessary tool for judging, analysing and critiquing art. It is a faulty philosophy when you use it to justify the artists behaviour because of his art and does not take away the real life consequences of supporting the artists ludicrous behaviour by continuing to listen to his output/ consuming the product sold to you. Kanye specifically makes the separation impossible for the normal person and the public since he forces the artist into his art constantly
@@mahalallel2012I may not be able to make #1 albums. But I have plenty that would make Kanye jealous - like a loving partner and a family that supports me.
@@mahalallel2012 i love kanye. He's still king in his mind and that's all that matters. Even if he's doubted or told he's wrong. He feels like a king despite it all
I think Kanye West is just an extremely talented musician and a contrarian at his core. Which makes him stand out from the masses and makes him seem more forward thinking than he actually is. When in reality he's not really thinking just acting on impulse. He shares a lot of the same qualities as Lou Reed (who unsurprisingly was a Kanye West fan)
If you can easily separate art from the artist, it means they haven't put any of their real selves or beliefs into that art. Which makes it empty and pointless and not worth listening to anyway. If they have put themselves into that art, and you're still trying to separate them, then you're trying to do the impossible, because they're inherently linked. It also means you just don't care about the real world impact of supporting certain people. And there is most certainly real world impact. These things have been studied.
That's not accurate. There have been many artists who are also rapists, and close to none of them have done art that says "hey I'm a rapist!". Artists, great or otherwise, frequently intentionall try to hide their crimes. They do not put those parts of themselves into their art.
separating art from the artist makes more sense when the artist isnt alive, and still not only benefiting from their work, and also actively using that benefit (money, power, or influence) on doing real harm in the world. but for people like kanye and JK, like... cmon. XD
You should NEVER separate an artist from their art!!! People!! For F--ksakes the expression is "Separate the Man from his Arguments" because a crazy person can still make logical arguments so you need to make sure the words are correct even if the speaker is a weirdo. Art is an expression of the artists soul and where it fits into the world. You cannot separate the artist from the art. That's wrong!!!
Im Jewish. Kanye is my favorite artist of ALL TIME. Since "Through the Wire." I played that shit 6000 times. I went to every single concert he had. He used to speak about self empowerment and confidence in a way that I would listen to every interview. As I got older, I learned just because someone is a musical genius doesnt make them a genius in everything else. When kanye used to drop it used to be an event. You KNEW you were getting a piece of art. This album, and the last few, theres no direction.
@@miseendriste6337 it's probably pretty equivalent, anyway you know Jews and Zionist are two different things right? Just like Palestinians are not the same as Hamas.
I loved reading Orson Scott Card at one point. His ideas in Enders Game and Speaker for the Dead really opened up my mind and helped me develop my cognitive empathy but listening to him after the whole thing with gay marriage being legalized, he started sounding like my homophobic parents. Getting married to a dude to piss them off was totally worth it.
I'd argue that when it comes to Burzum it might be easier to separate for someone who's ignorant, since he has a lot of instrumental stuff and most of his stuff is about elves or whatever. But still, if you can put 2+2 together you can notice that his whole thing is creating this mythological world and a pseudo archeological vision of old Norse history as a part of his white supremacist and antisemitic ideology.
I'm so glad you decided to talk about this because literally just earlier today i got an ad on my facebook for kanye's website where he's selling his shitty vultures merch for like $20 a piece. which, cool, i'm glad normal people can afford his stuff if they want it but at this point i wouldn't be caught dead giving that man any of my support, much less my money. separating the art from the artist is one thing, but when the art holds the same problematic message the creator personally holds, it's time we start having a conversation about media literacy and where the limit on that separation begins and ends. ESPECIALLY when it's someone as immensely popular and influential as kanye.
@@houragents5490 i’m aware. it’s still really funny & mighty coincidental that finally he’s able to release his merch the way he wants to and nobody wants it because it’s nazi shit.
Yo, being a hiphop fan from Chicago and it sound like we are around the same age of 30ish, thank you. I was a huge Kanye fan who fell off after the life of Pablo. If you listen to Kanye over the years, everything he has ever said he was gonna do, He did, even if ppl thought he was crazy. He made his own reality and I think that’s why us as millennials loved him but I don’t think it made him happy like he thought. We are starting to see that and I just hope he doesn’t crash out until the point of no return. I hope his mini me, North can help him see another purpose to focus on fr so he won’t. Thanks for your perspective I still gotta check out vultures to form my own opinion about the album.
Leave ideology aside and you will realize he never fell off. He is not as consistent as College dropout, Late reg, MBDTF Kanye but many gems in his recent catalog and still groundbreaking with the neo-gospel productions and others. 20+ years later and he is still innovative and relevant musically.
I've struggled with this topic as well as a big fan of Ender's game and Orson Scott Card's other main series, Homecoming. The truth is, you are correct. The artist creates the art and the art is created by their views, values, imagination, knowledge, etc. In addition, any financial support is used by the artist to push their own agendas. Card used some of the money I gave him to fight against equal rights. I can't buy any of his art without directly supporting his beliefs so I've chosen to find other artists to support.
That always strikes me as so strange when it happens! The most mixed up for me is S.O.D. Some of the members have learned and changed, some have doubled down on their beliefs.
Exactly. Love RATM. But, I'm not about to be a commie. I respect talent/art first. Personal views after. If they align with mine, great. If not, then hey I look the other way🤷🏽♂️
For me someone being a sex criminal is always a hard line. I cant ever forgive Inquisition for what Dagon was caught doing, and I cant believe we arent making a bigger stink as a community about the fact that hes been platformed and is releasing music again.
Same here! I know it happened before but i haven't seen such a division in mainstream hip hop with a controversial artist in a while. Hopefully some people have a better grasp on why its not easy to put an artist aside if they did something sketchy.
It's hard for me to separate art from artists, as an artist myself. I love all your talking points. Channel is important, these thoughts and messages are important.
The main problem with "separating the art from the artists" is that it only works for people who can't grasp themes, subtext, innuendo, and dramatic irony. If you're watching any Star Wars movie and you legitimately can't see all the obvious parallels between the bad guys and real-world nazis, you'll probably be more than able to separate the art from the artists. If you're watching Indiana Jones 1, 3, or 5, and you can't spot the criticism of the kinds of fascism practiced in America, you'll probably do great at separating the art from the artist. If you think Thanos was right, you probably don't even know the artist exists. If you watch any of the goblin banker scenes in Harry Potter, and you didn't have a problem with them using "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" as concept art and a lore bible, you're probably wondering why anyone would even need to separate the art from the artist. Sure, these are all movies, but if anything, music should be harder to separate the art and the artist. With music, the art is literally just the words of the artist delivered in a way that leads to them being repeated over and over inside your head. As a side note... yes, Kanye obviously has Manic Depressive Disorder and periodically refuses treatment. You know what is true about the vast majority of people with mental illnesses, learning disabilities, or any form of nuro-divergence? They don't become nazis. ADHD doesn't cause you to pal around with neo nazi youtubers. Aspergers doesn't make Mien Kampf more compelling to read. Autism doesn't make you round people up and put them in camps. Mental illness is no excuse for being or working with fascists.
I have a question what do you do if you want to make art, but think that the majority of people in the world see you as a bad person or hold beliefs inside that people think are harmful is it just not in the cards for you to make art Like is it not worth it cause everyone should be obligated to not have any interest in you off the jump and a big part of art is the satisfaction of having what you have to say, and your experiences resonating with people in some way so if people aren't allowed to do that cause it might cause harm what's the point
It's actually the opposite. Separating the art from the artist shows that you can have a critical and analitical mind. A mind that can absorve the complexity of life and understand that there are no easy answers and that you NEED to apply your critical thinking in everything and not hide your head in the sand and see the world in black and white terms. Only fools obssesed with "being good" or wanting to ride on moral high horses all the time will never separate the art from the artist. It's literally not having the intelectual capability to disect the world and simply put things in dichotomic terms. I pity those people to be honest.
@@midnighter2k That wasn't an invitation, that was me wanting to understand what someone w his worldview would do with someone who has my problems, FROM HIM. Not from you.
Just had this convo with my roommate the other day. I can’t separate the art from the artist with Kanye because his transgressions hurt too much. College dropout through graduation was my introduction into hip hop. Sad.
I hate when people blame Ye's bullshit on his mental problems. I know a lot of people with mental issues that dont go full fascist and go defcon 3 on the Jews. I've been a fan of his for a long time, but he's a rotten, nasty, hateful person. No redemption and no mercy from me. Later playa
Just because the people you know don't do it doesn't mean it doesn't come from mental issues dude, at the same time you're not entitled to give your support either.
The way I like to put it is that “being an asshole” isn't a mental illness. I came up with that line to talk about the people trying to diagnose Trump, but it fits here, too.
@@FrancoisDressler assuming people with mental illnesses will automatically be racist, terrible people is actively ableist and gives a bad reputation to everyone else who suffers from mental issues
Now that's a fucking rapper, God damn all this thinking about how Kanye used to be good when I can just go listen to 2014 Forest Hills Drive for the 34th time
@@KiraDaBeastNY he’s probably saying that to duck backlash that he still gets from Ye fans to this day. There’s this one mf that said “If Kendrick made it, it’d have a lot more weight” as if the song itself doesn’t have weight
Dang, it’s been 3 years? I found FD with the edgelord movies video followed by Bo Burnham and Kanye vids. Now the B Sides channel is as big as main was. Love it
You know, parasocial relationships are so crazy because even though you're well aware of the fact that it's not real, it still hits all the same. Realizing I could no longer separate the art from the artist felt like the death of part of me because the music was so intertwined in my life and marked pivotal points throughout my formative years. When I realized MBDTF was the last Kanye album I wholly liked or bought was heartbreaking. To say that Kanye's music was the soundtrack to my life can not be overstated. Throughout middle school, high school, and college, I was consumed with Kanye. He was my alarm clock, ringtone, study playlist, gym playlist, got me hyped for job interviews, and I went to sleep listening to his music. If I was listening to music, which I did all day, it was Kanye. So when things started to go downhill, I tried my hardest to hold on and hoped the Kanye I loved would return, but it started to hurt to even hope. Eventually, I realized I had only given him so much grace because I didn't want to let to go, and I was being a hypocrite because I would never let that crap slide with someone I didn’t like. It's hard being an old Kanye fan when you're so vehemently against the things he says, does, and the trash music that has been put out for years. It feels like the death of a deep, long friendship that you've never been able to completely heal from because often that friend throws it in your face, with their actions, why you're no longer friends.
The recent video of Kanye in the airport, answering questions from paparazzi (im guessing), really shined a light on his current state of mind. He just looked and sounded desperate while trying to convince the viewer (and maybe himself too) that he is in fact a confident genius that wins no matter what.
Right now we have the most art that has ever been made and tomorrow we will have even more. There's just far too much good entertainment these days that I will never have enough time to get around to or maybe even hear about just because they never get the attention that their work deserves. I have so many options to choose from I don't feel a desperate need to hold on to a few harmful artists and worry about some vacuum that will never be filled because there are just so many others who are more worthy and could possibly even be better as both people and artists.
When I hear Em say some off the wall things I assume he’s 80% joking. Ye on the other hand I assume is 100% honest because he lacks the ability to filter his words.
Life of the party, Hurricane, 24, He gave it all, sunday service and a lot more recent stuff from Kanye is fire. Folks not listening with their ears, hating despise the longevity and creativity for ideological reason. On my part I will enjoy every chance I have to be blessed by the abundance and variety of bangers Ye creates.
I’ve always felt like he’s overrated but could never fully understand his actions (and still don’t tbh) until I found out that he has a porn addiction. Like a really BAD one. Then many of his actions, his lyrical content, his lifestyle and even the way he publicises his relationships and women, began to make so much sense. I know he’s been battling it for years but in this current music era, it feels like he’s stopped trying to overcome it.
mental health is a cop out. he uses having bipolar when it suits him. you cant separate art from the artist. the shit that you dont agree with is the inspiration for the art.
Everyone deserve ls support managing mental health struggles. It never absolves consequences for the impact your action has on others. Basically Fiq said what I’ve long said “Explain, not Excuse.”
@@JenSell1626 generally speaking, you're correct. specifically speaking, kanye uses mental health to get over on yall because you'll believe it. he conveniently only has it when he does dumb shit.
He doesn’t really apologize for the bad things though. Sometimes he pretends to and goes right back to doing the same ish. Also I never heard him say it’s because I’m Bipolar I said xyz, he almost always doubles down actually. But I’ll also admit I’m not following him that closely and never have so I only get the highlights whenever he is trending. If he apologizes at all he just says something along the lines of that’s not what I meant, y’all misunderstood at least from what I have seen
He doesn't even believe he's bipolar anymore, he now says that he has "slight signs of autism" from his 2002 car accident, which is so funny because one could say "at least he's not using his mental health a a suitable cop out" but his self-diagonisis is also very weird
I have yet to hear a convincing argument for “separate the art from the artist” as we understand that concept now, essentially as a free pass to be a shitty person. Art is intrinsically tied to its artist. I believe all, or most, art is autobiographical. If the art came from nowhere and means nothing, it is not art. You don’t have to be perfect or even a “good person.” You just have to not be a shitty person. How can you defend someone’s art after they’ve been actively harmful and that harm is present in the art? If R. Kelly only sings about sex and we KNOW he’s a sexual predator, how do you defend that? Kanye’s art has always been about Kanye. There is no separation. So when he reveals himself to be a full on Nazi, we need to treat his art like Nazi art
Ok actual question then. Can the art be considered bad because the artist is mean/hateful and bad. Can a piece of art that would be considered bad actually be seen as good because the artist is good/kind/loving and giving back?
I had to let Ye go awhile ago. He's too anti black and otherwise problematic. I've let a lot of modern hip hop go. I still stay connected to the culture. But lately I've been listening to TOOL, Queens Of The Stone Age, KNOWER and Supergrass. They fit the vibe I've been on lately. I'll miss Ye. He was great at one point. I have faith hip hop will morph into something even better. I have faith in my culture. We've always been on the bleeding edge of culture and defined what's relevant.
Respectfully, music just in a general sense hasn’t been on the “bleeding edge” since like…Miles Davis. Artists in their respective genres have pushed those forward and pushed the envelope but it hasn’t gone beyond that. If it seems like it has, once you look you see that usually has zero to do with music and everything to do with the power of marketing, which is a pretty poor barometer for “defining a culture”, which is something we don’t even need in the first place; we should be defining ourselves as individuals first anyhow..
Ye is not the culture tho, there are so many good young mc and rappers out there to listen from j.i.d, mick jenkins, vince staples, big Krit, cordae, saba, earl switshirt, kendrick, tyler the creator, denzel cury, joey badass, j cole, isaiah rashad, ab soul, billy woods etc
@@thestarseeker8196Most of the real pioneering rn is in noise/art pop but they're not my cup of tea. And while there's not as much pure originality going around I feel like artists have never been less beholden to trends and we're getting much more casual blending of genres on the charts/radio.
This reminds me of JK Rowling, who is an example of being unable to extricate the art from the artist, for me (HP Lovecraft is another). This may seem like a non-sequitur, but I was watching a video about trans rights and remembered your efforts to make your channels a safe space for trans folks. I'm not trans, but I am LGBTQIA+ (Q, I, and +), and I wanted to thank you for that.
i don't like the idea of separating art from artist because i think in trying to do that you miss out on something really valuable - appreciating as a positive the connection between good art and bad people. to your point, bad people make good art all the time, and i think it's worthwhile to find the roots of that good art within the bad person, rather than just setting the bad person aside and ignoring that those roots exist. of course you're spot on that once the art is no longer good, there's no reason to do that. and there's something to be said for the way living a reactionary worldview decimates your ability to make good artistic choices. but i think if kanye was still putting out peak work there would still be value in appreciating his art, even if the negative worldview is featured prominently and explicitly endorsed within it.
If you haven’t read it yet, I highly recommend the book Monsters by Claire Dederer, which deep-dives into the conflict of loving art made by monstrous artists. She approaches the conflict from a variety of perspectives and her arguments are more interesting and sophisticated than the usual debates around the topic.
It's literally impossible to separate art from the artist, because the entire art exists only because of the context behind the artist. If the artist didn't go through something or have a specific mindset behind the impetus of creating that art, then the art wouldn't exist. The art *is* the artist. No matter what it means to you, there is authorial intent, or at least authorial context behind everything. The mindset behind separation is trash. Abandon it. If you can't walk away from a piece of art because it meant something to you, then that's because you never understood the art to begin with. Also, stop defining your persona by works from others. Make your own work, whatever that might be. You are you, and everything that isn't you isn't you. Everything that isn't physically you, isn't you, and is ephemeral. Jettison it and move on. Find meaning within yourself.
Ever since that "pooping scoop" song I knew Kanye was cooked musically. I haven't purposefully listened to any of his new stuff since he was talking about black people. And now.... Yeah not regretting jumping of that train early 😂 But I am looking funny at people who choose to work with him. Especially now.
@@arthurg.calixto3338 I shouldn't have to do research for a song like that. That shit was like 8 years ago. It wasn't even funny, that shit was stupid 😂 if a "diss song" can't stand on its own it ain't good. This legit what fd was saying. Making bad shit on purpose don't make you a genius. And from what I heard it ain't gotten better.
@@ItachiUchiha-sh6of But atleast judge him on an actually bad song instead of freaking out over a literal shitpost, or else the argument just feels in bad faith.
Thanks for your outlook FD, I think this is a well-informed and thoughtful summary of the situation with Kanye and a general perspective I mostly align with. I don't think that we should separate the art from the artist. As an artist myself I am skeptical of the idea that someone can make a piece of art without it being intrinsically tied to who that artist is, what they believe, their way of seeing and therefore interpreting and translating their perspective into a piece of art or music or media. To clarify, I do not think this means that people cannot enjoy art made by problematic people (a notable exception being art that is explicitly harmful or touts harmful, bigoted, etc. rhetoric-- e.g. Burzum-- I will meet fans of such media with a well-deserved side-eye). However, platforming them, supporting them financially, riding for them publicly-- that is wrong. Personally, I prefer not to listen to or otherwise enjoy the art of people I find problematic or outright evil, but far be it from me to force that upon other people. Just don't give them a platform. Don't give their shit a springboard. Simple as that, in my opinion.
Artists make the art in question. In most cases, it is pretty hard to separate to begin with but it doesn't help that some artists can't seem to separate their problematic behavior from their art either.
A similar issue to Kanye was similar to what happened to certain groups of fans when “One In A Million” by Guns N Roses came out. My mom was a middle school teacher in LA at the time it came out and she told me all the young 1st generation Hispanic girls were in tears after learning the artist they loved hates people/families like them at the time. It’s one of the pieces that the artist’s views are inserted in and said directly to the consumer.
I get why some people can't just drop Kanye. Some of Roman Polanski's movies have said so much to who I am as a person today, but I totally understand if someone has never seen any of him movies because he is a creep. It is definitely a case by case basis.
Kanye will always be remembered for the MAJOR impact he had in rap / hip hop and our culture but I seriously said deuces ✌🏽and RIP ⚰️ to the old Yeezy, the Blood Diamonds, collabing with Slum Village and Little Brother Yeezy after his mom passed! 😭 with all the trash and negativity flooding podcasts and headlines these days I am comfortable and at complete peace totally ignoring certain people and brands at my big age. Somethings just aren’t even worth paying attention to anymore. We have enough drama and headaches to deal with IRL on a daily basis. I will always love the Old Yeezy.
So I’m a hobbyists novel writer. And a big part of my growth (maybe 5 years ago) is that even novel writing, the most solitary art ever, is a community effort. You NEED beta readers, you need other writers to compete against, you have to READ! You need editors. Writing programs and workshops, it’s a group effort! And so is Hip Hop. Once you are disconnected from community you cannot make good art. You just can’t. Kanye is never gonna be good again because he isn’t part of the hip hop community like he was.
@@Dave102693 I’m not 100% sure I agree with that. Even George W Bush (noted problematic person) deserves to make art. I think it’s a human impulse. Now I’m not sure everyone is entitled to a platform or an audience for their art…
When I go out to the bar with my friend, he plays the same 6 Kanye songs on Touch Tunes while we are playing pool. He's a lefty like me, but he was also a way bigger Kanye head than me. I'm always looking around the room for someone to be WAY to happy that Kanye is on.
I dislike to sound mentally insane but HEAR ME OUT, Artists express their personal values or play with personal thoughts and evolutions of these thoughts through- art... Its just that. But to me *AS AN ARTIST MYSELF,* i feel like this ''connection' is almost a clear distinction because as an artist you get to do *whatever* you want and express that 'creativity' to limits that can almost be outside of yourself or "whats right" , I feel like there's always an infnite amount of layers throughout art, I mean not *all of his songs* express that and i mean i think its more about separating whats problematic with what holds sentiment and what people want to hear, Like i mean ill still bump his older music...
Honestly, whenever I listened to his music its always felt intrinsically connected to both the out-of-pocketness, creative strokes of genius, and narcissistic grandiosity that comes with his personality/mental health. I dunno if it's just my own perspective as a black female artist with mental illness and the ways that I can relate to those highs & lows. But I genuinely never thought someone could produce the mixes he created or his shock-value lyrics without his positionality and bipolarity. You can always see his tie ins to other black, troubled artists, for example: when he pulls inspiration from people like Gil-Scott Heron on flashing lights. That remix makes you feel so vain and grandiose, but if you're a real one who knows what it's sampled from the original is an incredibly dark, reflective, isolated, and emotionally heavy song. He'd have to be tapped into the ability to feel both those extremes at the same time. Things like that were never lost on me.
Yea. This is basically how I felt since 2018. Even if I wanted to listen to the new music outside of the context of what was happening outside of it, I don’t think I would be capable of it.
while we're here: Chris Brown beat the absolute hell out of Rihanna and didn't really change as a person since and it bothers me that generally no one has cared.
If you really think about it though, and not even think all that much because he constantly whines about it, Chris’ career never recovered in the context of where he was and where he was otherwise headed. He was more than a household name, he was an undisputed icon from the generation in that music genre. He went from that to just an R&B artist, a megastar to an extent but mostly only amongst his core supporters. The casual fans and people who just liked a couple songs did not support him to the same extent after and he now whines online about being overlooked for awards, recognition, and stature in the industry. That says everything right there, especially when you add in that he always throws in his two cents whenever there’s a domestic abuse allegation concerning an entertainer 🤷♂️. He regrets losing all the buzz he lost but he still doesn’t regret his actual behavior nor the toxicity behind it, and for that he’ll forever remain an afterthought to those of us not tied to the notion he can do no wrong because he dances and sings well.
Not only does no one care, he literally has repeated that behavior over and over again and his entire fanbase just goes “nuh uh, no he hasn’t.”
You can look up Brown’s entire history of violence with women, it’s out there and easy to find.
@@JME1186 I see your point but I think his decline in popularity also just has to do with more artists taking up his niche in the genre and doing it better than him so when combined with his violent abuse the industry just moved more away from him, but not completely of course he’s still doing fine but not as well as he was before
He was 19 years old and very apologetic, you need to let it go. Plus she not a angel in that situation too
"He clearly can't deal with people telling him no, but he swears he's a free thinker" is not only a perfect way to describe Kanye but also a majority of his defenders
But what the correlation
@@TotallyNotKanyei think the idea here is that part of being a free thinker includes having a mind open enough to genuinely consider other possibilities. on the one hand, if you can't stick to your own convictions and go against the grain you're definitely not a free thinker. but on the other hand, refusing to listen to other's inputs or perspective and always convincing yourself that you're right, or only listening to people who yes man you, you also can't be a free thinker because you're still trapping yourself in such a limited perspective. ideally you can actually take other people's inputs and evolve your own perspective/ideas further from that.
@@feykingjulian good take.
Classic narcissistic traits
@@feykingjulianno being willing to question your opinion isn't being a free thinker either because you're a prisoner of yourself.
“2013, so a decade ago now”
THAT IS FOUL, YOU TAKE THAT BACK
I threw up a little bit when he said that
First time?
Lol you're old
@@mollusckscramp4124 look as good as I do when you’re 900 years old…
Nahhh I refuse to admit it 😭
Art is based on context. I don’t think the artist needs to be a moral exemplar to appreciate their work, but as always, we have to remain conscious and educated. We can’t pretend art lives separate from reality.
Perfectly put.
But judging art based on the life and actions of the artist even when those actions are not used as text or sub text in the artist work is pure moral grandstanding. I consider this usually a cultural trope from the USA, obssesing over being one of the good guys.
I think it transcends reality
@@midnighter2k This isn't just a USA thing. In South Korea, Kpop idols' work is usually stripped from airwaves and cease promotion as soon as the idol loses favor morally and socially. So it happens in other countries, too. It's just what is considered unacceptable socially and morally varies according to culture, and the USA is the loudest because the world is more aware of what's going on in the country due to their forced western influence through media. People also should be able to analyze whether the art is connected to the artist possibly in ways initially unseen, and whether it fits in with their worldview and lifestyle.
@GenerationNextNextNext I am not saying that USA is the only one that can cancels artist. Any public figure is one slip away from being critized. That's why they have publicists and media managers. But the USA people are more obsessed with moraly grandstanding and not wanting to be associated with people with "moraly reprehensible behavior." It's true, free speech is not free of consequences. But in the USA there are people celebrating their moral superiority of not consuming art from a problematic dead dude.
Here's the thing about separating the artist from the art - it's real easy if the artist is dead. At that point, the harm they can do is done. Living people? Their art, especially commercial art, exists in the same context where they're actively out there doing the harmful shit, maybe using support of their art as an excuse for getting to continue the harmful shit. I think there's more of a convo there.
Agreed! That divide between past, finished harm and potential continuing harm is significant. A number of Marilyn Manson's initial albums spoke to my young, "warlike autistic" self DIRECTLY when they came out; now, today, I'm mad I gave that drugged-up, abusive asshole my "back then" money-while feeling the absence of that connection to my past self. I'm still a hand grenade that never stopped exploding, tho.
It's not always the case that the harm an artist can do is finished after their passing. There is racist music from the past that continues to find an audience today, there are portrayals of antisemitic lies in books and plays, there is art that is propaganda, like _Atlas Shrugged._
@@SavageGreywolfmy thoughts exactly.
Absolutely perfectly stated.
@@SavageGreywolfWhen the harm is in the art itself, you get into the territory the video talks about.
It’s kinda difficult to separate art from the artist when he’s got antisemitic bars on the songs. In Kanye’s case, it’s not just the context surrounding the art itself that is bigoted, it’s the text itself.
its all of nothing...i dont like anything so it is nothing for you, and the whole world. you going to challenge me?
I guess it works for older Kanye songs but it doesn’t really work for vultures
@@ginxxxxxWhat?
Well, that sounds like a choice😂
I didn’t hear any bars were anti semitic.
The problem with artist vs individual is that both have the same bank account. That’s mostly why I have a hard time with the seperation between the art and the artist.
Piracy!
exactly!
Thank you! I said the same thing. Finically supporting them by buying their art is financing their evil deeds.
Proven time and again with JK Rowling in addition to Kanye
I have a cousin who's in music and he broke down music distribution to me. Understand that when you spend money on music, it doesn't just go into the hands of the artist but the entire team who helped to create that song. I make it a general rule not to punish everyone for the work of one. Plus, if I stay logically consistent then I'd never be able to listen to anything since I don't know anyone but Christ who I agree with 100%.
I can usually separate the art from the artist, but I can't be listening to R Kelly singing love songs when I know he's thinking about teenage girls he abused while singing those songs.
Rkelly is the one that really gets me the most. Because most of these people will acknowledge he’s not into adult women so they know these songs are about abused children and they have sex to these songs. Like it’s insane to me
@niyaakbar1098 my mind's telling me nooo! Yeah I can't listen to that song the same way after that
Everybody in Chicago knew about R. Kelly and his BS, but no one ever spoke on it. People were literally selling the bootlegs of it at every street corner.
The way people treated the R. Kelly tape like it was just some sex tape... I remember listening to morning radio DJs in the 2000s boasting that they saw the tape like it wasn't literal exploitation
It's insane to me that people were just openly watching literal CP and distributing it, like she wasn't even a human being.
Better not listen to Death Certificate by Cube or Return to the 36 Chambers by ODB. Or about 100 other LPs from artists ranging from Zeppelin to Bowie. The content of the music and the content is of the characters would have some of you in a tizz.
Me personally, I am happy to listen to the music.
@@geekylove3603 congratulations on being happy for not having morals
@@geekylove3603 You're still comparing oranges and dying of ebola. With your copy/pasta .
Benoit Blanc: "It's just so dumb."
Birdie Jay: (gasp!) "It's so dumb it's brilliant!"
Benoit: "NO! It's just dumb!"
To be fair if only Benoit figured it out and no one else it was a ballsy plan that kind of worked
@@alexanderguerrero347 The problem there is Benoit Blanc is in a room full of idiots and an opportunist taking advantage of them after having used them in the first place.
miles bronye
@@alexanderguerrero347but the point of the scene was that anyone could have figured it out
, Blanc was the only one to admit it.
@@alexanderguerrero347i mean tbf in that movie the whole thing is that they were all stupidly enamored with miles and listened to everything he said, except for benoit and helen who actually recognized him to be an idiot
As a bipolar person, I say this every time someone brings up Kanye: I have no sympathy for bipolar people who have access to every mental health resource but refuse to use them. Without insurance, my therapy and psychiatry appointments are several hundred dollars a month and my meds would be almost a thousand. Kanye is one of the incredibly privileged people that could afford treatment in our broken healthcare system. When I was first diagnosed I was non-compliant with taking meds but after several years going off the deep end, I realized that I needed them to be stable. Kanye is in his 40s. You can tell he is severely detached from reality and everyone around him is enabling him.
I also can’t believe this is the same man who wrote Diamonds from Sierra Leone.
Yeah I agree with you, we shouldn't condemn people for having mental health struggles but at some point you need to see how it affects your life and the people around you.
Every point you mentioned I agree with. I sacrifice a lot to be able to pay for my mental health care.
He had a loving and supportive family and nothing but money now. Despite the enablers, he could have gotten help years ago.
Kanye’s still a genius!
@@Ishbikesdude huh? hello?
If you are severely mentally ill and you have a bunch of people around you telling you that you're okay. And you are as far gone as Kanye is, you're going to believe them. At this point the only way Kanye will ever get well is to get away from those people. And right now these people are feeding his ego and his delusions way too much for that to happen.
I think there's kind of the Michael Jackson factor going on with Kanye. By which I mean, Michael clearly didn't like the way he looked, but if he'd been broke he'd have just had to live with it and maybe have ended up dealing with it in a healthier way, but the fact he had huge amounts of disposable income meant he was never forced to come to terms with it and could indulge his craziness more and more and get sicker and sicker.
I feel like the same thing has happened with Kanye. Yeah normal bipolar people don't do this shit, but normal bipolar people simply don't have the resources to entirely surround themselves with yes-men 24/7 and banish anyone who breathes wrong and do what they want all day every day and basically seal themselves off in this little crazy bubble. So money has allowed him to get crazy to a level that regular people just can't.
This is it.
I agree with every single word you just said!
@@FrancoisDressleri see what you did there
I remember the house republicans Twitter making a tweet that said "Kanye. Elon. Trump." And they were honestly 100% correct with that comparison. These are all just dumb guys that convinced a ton of other dumb guys that they are geniuses because they have a lot of money. In a conservative mindset, having money means you are smart and strong enough to get that money. So any bad takes or dumb things that these idiots do, the fans insist that they are just executing some elaborate plan that no one else could've thought of or done.
really well said, and you can see the patterns and similarities of all their supporters
sure theyre not groundbreaking geniuses but to say they are dumb is insane and completely reductionist and shows a lack of critical thinking from you. if you represent liberal/left-field ideologies please dont represent them publicly as im sure you would give them a bad name of ignorance. though im not a republican.
The difference is that Kanye at one point wasn’t a complete dumbass and WAS a genius, elon and trump on the other hand were never even smart to begin with
it's weird to call Trump dumb when Biden exists.
@@angel_of_rust Its weird that you think both can't be true at the same time.
I used to be a huge Staind fan as a kid, their music really helped me through some hard times and helped me process some stuff about my parents. But now he’s out here questioning my right to exist and talking like the very father I hate. I think you should never separate the art from the artist because no matter how they helped you in the past, the harm they do now is far more substantial.
Eh looking back at all the suburban white guy angst from nu metal it's not very suprising what happened to those types of bands. I mean who did we think all those jenko wearing juggalos would become in their 40s and 50s?
@@plaidchuck Maybe Juggalo is not the right word considering what the ICP tries to do with their community and fanbase, making the Juggalos are more positive being.
Somebody like Kid Rock on the other hand was always a vulture, whose pivoted from genre from genre to where could be the most successful and now has made his brand about satisfying himself through the patriotic lens.
I straight up won't separate the at from the artist. I don't really do nostalgia, though, so I might just be wired weird. But I don't care how much I might've enjoyed to work of someone, if it turns out they're terrible people then I'm immediately done with them. Full stop.
I try treating my time and attention like valuable resources, like I feel most people should. And if it comes out that someone I enjoy is secretly terrible, I'm not giving them any time or attention at all. They're just clearly not worth it to me.
What did he do and say to hurt you?
@@RevShiftyAgreed
separating art from the artist is a luxury. Just like. being "apolitical". when the artist is causing real harm (see Rowling....) them we gotta step back.
You can condemn the actions while loving the art from one same person tho. It's not adversarial itself or necessarily used as a cover up so no it's not a luxury.
If you fake not having an opinion about the actions and claims to only care about the art then yes it's luxury you take to avoid the real talk.
there's a slight but constant buzzing/ringing noise with your microphone, just wanted to point it out in case no one else has 🤝
Man now you said it that’s all I can hear
i'm sorry lol - i thought my headset was bugging at first@@jessicarichter6436
Some advice I wish all artists would live by is, "don't record your midlife crisis", but this dude has been going through a midlife crisis for over a decade.
what about Because the internet
@@Biglax 29 is not midlife. That's just a dude going through some shit.
@@entroponetics its good to record during important things happening in your life. that gives for more soulful and honest lyricism.
Someone cc Drake into the chat…
My most poignant can't separate art from artist moment remains Cosby. I'm in the generation that adored Cosby; I still have his skits memorized in my head. But I don't quote them and I'll never listen to them again. Because SA with drugs of dozens of women is Right Out. Now I think back on a few of those skits and I think "Yeah, the dentist sketch was hysterical, but he liked to joke an awful lot about being sorta harsh to his kids. Maybe I shoulda seen it back then."
I want the version of A Different World the great Debbie Allen envisioned where Denise has a baby and juggles motherhood and college 😔 I also liked Marisa Tomei and a lot of work addressing ⚪️ feminism could have been done with her character and we could have moved the ball a decade forward.
Can't forget that episode where Cosby had a "Special BBQ sauce" that was definitely laced with drugs
Better not listen to Death Certificate by Cube or Return to the 36 Chambers by ODB. Or about 100 other LPs from artists ranging from Zeppelin to Bowie. The content of the music and the content is of the characters would have some of you in a tizz.
Me personally, I am happy to listen to the music.
@@JenSell1626 I allowed myself to go back to A Different World last year, relative to dropping Cosby, and the wasted potential of that cast (and presumably crew) was worse than I remembered.
worst part about cosby was the hypocrisy
You can't forget the artist. Art is media, and media always has a message. It is always made for a reason and those reasons matter.
So you don’t listen to any gangster rap?
Art can be commissioned
@@yveje9720 huh?
@thedopestshow5504 gangster rap isn't remotely comparable.
o.o
A wrestling podcaster I listen to said it’s hard to separate the art from the artist when the art is informed and influenced by the things the artist is being judged for
I know now from the audio bug that FD reads the first comments so if you see this just know you’re an inspiration
Is my guy rocking a TOOL shirt on the low?🤣
@@ReshonBryanthe’s a tool fan; he’s pretty open about it. And used their music for a recent video too
@@2120musiclover good job chief👏🏽
@@ReshonBryant I was wondering that too! Good stuff!
@@thing_under_the_stairs I know he said he's a Slipknot fan. I'm not too surprised about the love for TOOL. He doesn't exactly fit the description. Most Black dudes into alternative are going to look a certain way. Many of times alternative people are gonna be very goth or punk rock in appearance. For instance I'll see most Blacks rocking a very clean Nirvana shirt with designer jeans and some J's🤣
you can only truly seperate the art from the artist when theyre not actively using that support to enable theyre terrible behavior.
Exactly. The “45% of all art” argument, much as I love FD, doesn’t work because most of those problematic artists are dead and cannot cause further harm.
@@Cdr2002nah a lot more are alive, you just don’t know about yet
So by that logic you could buy a Hitler's painting during the 3rd reich from a 3rd person and you will be golden. Nobody could judge you. Same way you could get a Gacy painting from when he was in prison, he wasn't using what he earned from that for anything, he was already in prison. Don't worry i believe in separating the art from the artist with much less arbitrary rules. So keep it up, you are getting there, just put more effort and intellect into it. Your generation seems to need more people with the criticla thinking skills to separate art from the artist.
Kanye has some of the wildest bars. He said "You can live through anything if magic made it" 😭
LMAOOOOO
40 million deaths from HIV going -- wait, what? If I was magic Johnson this wouldn't have been a thing?
This is unironically consistent with things I’ve seen colonial apologists say
That old Graduation song? Pretty sure it was Magic Johnson surviving HIV being referenced
@@Lucifersfursona
Magic Johnson surviving HIV not that deep
Separating art from the artist is always about you and what you'll turn a blind eye to just to maintain your pleasures.
THIS !!!!
you pointed out succinctly what the true reality is in regards to this complex topic. everything does depend on you and the artist, your pleasures and what the artist has done. there’s also a point of lack of information, you won’t always know everything the artist has done.
This is so perfect! Especially as an artist, I find it so fascinating when people want to “separate the art”, knowing full well I am bringing my *full self* to my art. And any statements suggesting otherwise feels like willful ignorance
i had never heard that rhymefest description of kanye but its basically the most concise description of what made prime kanye so great
It was a sweet balance of aiming for the stars and being self-aware, of bravado and vulnerability. Now it's so much bravado that it makes him look even weaker and faker. It's like Drake, except Drake is admittedly more consistently mid while Kanye has the potential for better in him.
i didn't know how essential he was to writing Kanye's greatest songs:
Some of the songs he has co-written with Kanye include:
- "Jesus Walks"
- "New Slaves"
- "Black Skinhead"
- "All Falls Down"
- "All Day"
- "All Mine"
- "All of the Lights"
- "Blood on the Leaves"
- "Bound 2"
- "Champion"
- "Clique"
- "Famous"
- "Feedback"
- "Gorgeous"
- "No More Parties in LA"
- "Wash Us in the Blood"
This is not an exhaustive list, but it includes some of the notable songs co-written by Rhymefest
@@burgermind802oh wow All Falls Down. Seriously if you want a night and day, pick that song and like anything Kanye has done in the last 10 years.
Shout out rhymefest for not just being another yes man
Yeah, exactly. That's kinda where I'm at with it. Although Ye is better creatively now than he was. The shenanigans are just getting tired tho.
yeah, but I think his reasoning is dumb. the bleach line actually contrasts the humanity and vanity and introduces the duality of TLOP on a gospel track
@@konLVdon
Nah.
I wonder if Kanye and Ms Miraj are two sides of the same coin…
Better not listen to Death Certificate by Cube or Return to the 36 Chambers by ODB. Or about 100 other LPs from artists ranging from Zeppelin to Bowie. The content of the music and the content is of the characters would have some of you in a tizz.
Me personally, I am happy to listen to the music.
100% facts on connecting Kanye to a specific time. I listened to College Dropout 3-5 times a day while finishing my dissertation. Late Registration came out my first week as a professor. My career progressed as his did. But I matured and he didn’t.
Ye evolved
@@houragents5490you forgot to add the "d" before "evolved"
@@houragents5490For the worst. He regressed
This has been a big point of discussion in the metal underground for a long time now. In the mid to late 80s, there was a prominent black metal group called Mayhem. The group had a series of controversies, but one of the major ones was one of the members murdering another member. That murderer (also antisemite), Varg Vikernes, went on to create some of the most foundationally influential black metal from prison. In his wake, a subsect of fascist/neo-Nazi/WS black metal has grown, with an actively anti-fascist movement to counter them. While most people agree Varg is a terrible person and the world would be better off without him, the metal community has remained split on whether or not to separate the art from the artist, with many saying yes and many saying no.
I personally see all art as autobiographical in nature, at least to some degree, and I'm not willing to enable a hateful person by supporting their art.
Edit: Varg Vikernes created his music not from prison, but prior to the murder and his subsequent imprisonment. Thanks to @whym6438 for the correction.
Angry Metal Guy has a great article on this whole dilemma that goes into the actual statistics of how supporting these types of bands causes real world harm to certain groups.
Small correction: all of Varg's most influential work happened before he went to prison, where he wasn't allowed to have a guitar.
You are facing the "One Nazi In The Bar" scenario. You have to immediately expel that one semi-reasonable Nazi or he brings his Nazi friends, and your bar becomes a Nazi bar over time.
This is what happened to your death metal. You kept letting the Nazi do his thing in your genre, and now it's his genre.
EDIT: For my part. I've always thought of Kanye as a decent journeyman producer who broke his jaw and decided to rap and one of his friends said "HAHAHAH Yeah you sound great rapping right now HAHAHAH!" And Kanye said "Yes. I *AM* the best rapper ever, you're right!"
My favorite Kanye track is the version of "Classic" on youtube that removed his verse entirely. THE FUCK WAS HE ON THAT TRACK WITH THOSE MURDERERS ANYWAY!?!? P!
That P just popped up somehow, but I did mention lyrical murderers.
Righteous. I wholeheartedly agree.
o.o
It’s hella hard for me to listen to Kanye now. A lot of my friends listen to him pretty effortlessly, but when I listen to him all I hear is a man who is slowly and slowly becoming crazier and crazier. The fact that somebody like Kanye, who used to stand up against homophobia can effortlessly say he is inspired by Hitler is insane. Man even now with Dave Chappelle’s weird transphobic jokes it feels like everybody isn’t the saint they used to be.
You’re a moral warrior. Get over yourself.
@@jayloncollins9681 what's that make you, a keyboard warrior? this the youtube comments section man, I understand you CAN but why you feel like you GOTTA lash out at people just saying their piece?
@@TheAngryBeard bro Kanye is allowed to have an opinion. Even if it’s one that’s not align with yours or most other people. The thing is with people like you the commenter and FD is that they don’t give his opinions any context and just write him off as crazy. I do think Kanye likes to be controversial however I don’t think he’s crazy.
Despite the things he’s said about Hitler Slavery or whatever he’s very much still in support of black lives and is fighting for black lives right now.
Nobody talks about the many positive things he’s done for Chicago or the many black artist that he’s opened doors for and birthed entire multi million dollar careers in fashion and music.
Who’s FD to even comment on art ? He doesn’t understand art on a basic level. He’s a teacher who blatantly doesn’t provide context to some of the points he makes in his videos.
Like I said don’t be a moral monster. Not listening to Kanye but listening to actual murders is stupid. All because he thinks Jewish people shouldn’t own black rights.
RIGHT. I thought Kanye was a fckn champ for just calling the president out during Katrina, too, but now he's just fully unhinged and it makes anything cool he ever did feel a little deflated. Chappelle also felt like he could run circles around racists but he's just found his own old-man bigotry to settle into now.
@@jayloncollins9681 You're a keyboard warrior. Get over yourself.
I used to think I could separate the art from the artist themself, but it always gnawed at my soul that I was still listening to people and technically giving them money.
Then I realized I can always find other artists in the same genre who, at the very least, don't spout hateful rhetoric and still make good music. At the same time I can hope from afar that the person I stopped listening to will have some long conversations over their beliefs and/or learn from their actions.
See, that's where I'm at too, there are no artists that are _so_ much better than everybody else that I can't just... replace them with non-bigoted people. JK Rowling is horribly anti-trans, so Harry Potter is out and a million other magical fantasy series by authors just as good (and better than!) her are in. (Basically) Every band that ever played Warped Tour has had shit come out about them fucking with minors on tour, so they're all out and new indies are in. It ain't that hard.
@davidlaush180 huge agree !!! I always hated when people said separate the art from the artist because regardless If your listening to their music, commissioning them, buying merchandise, constantly talking about them and recommending them to friends your still supporting the artist at the end of the day.
I wish people would just be like "yeah I know he's a shitty person, but I like the music, so 🤷♀️" then jump through these kinds of hoops
Yeah there's too many options for media now to lock yourself into something you feel bad about. Not just Kanye. I mean TV, Games, Movies, Music, hell shoes.
@@AxeMan808 I sense some baggage with that shoes inclusion. Do you mind sharing?
@@davidlaush180 Oh just Kanye's awful awful shoes, and Trump just dropped some awful awful shoes.
Kanye's career is like a Greek tragedy. The same pride that helped him gain success has resulted in his destruction.
When you listen to the music and watch the man, it's clear in both cases that Kanye has lost his soul.
And his sanity..
i like what picasso says about art, “The purpose of art is washing the dust of daily life off our souls.” which is why i personally don’t find separating the art from the artist to be all that helpful in understanding and connecting to a piece. i think art is an escape and depending on who/ what they escape to definitely shapes my view of an artist and their art.
“Poopity Scoop” was Kanye ruining a beat that Drake REALLY wanted. He figured that destroying the song was the biggest eff you possible to his former protege.
Sad part is, it just made Kanye look more foolish for doing that.
@@TheEmbessyNetworkno it didn't lol it was funny and even Drake thinks so
And it's better than basically anything off of Vultures lol
Better not listen to Death Certificate by Cube or Return to the 36 Chambers by ODB. Or about 100 other LPs from artists ranging from Zeppelin to Bowie. The content of the music and the content is of the characters would have some of you in a tizz.
Me personally, I am happy to listen to the music.
@@TheEmbessyNetwork"you fool! I was only pretending to be a moron!"
It’s easy to separate the art from the artist when the art becomes bad
Bars..lol
lol
It's why Chris Brown is still around
I think it's the opposite. People find it easier to separate the art from the artist when the art is good. It's easy for people to say "You can't separate the art from the artist" when the art is crap anyway. They get to feel morally superior while not actually sacrificing anything. But when the art is good, they find reasons to justify still consuming it even though they know the person creating that art is bad, so suddenly separating the art from the artist seems like a great idea--especially if the artist is still alive.
It's easy to separate the art from the artist whwn the artist don't put antisemitic shit in their bars lol
I think separating the art from the artist is a valid and necessary tool for judging, analysing and critiquing art. It is a faulty philosophy when you use it to justify the artists behaviour because of his art and does not take away the real life consequences of supporting the artists ludicrous behaviour by continuing to listen to his output/ consuming the product sold to you. Kanye specifically makes the separation impossible for the normal person and the public since he forces the artist into his art constantly
Kanye on Vultures, is basically saying "You tried to take me down, I don't give a fuck, you still show me in the media and I do what I please"
Yeah lmao. He's still King in his mind....
@@ldking5132 Oh! So he must King in your mind in order to be King; and your No.1 Album is releasing when??
@@mahalallel2012I may not be able to make #1 albums. But I have plenty that would make Kanye jealous - like a loving partner and a family that supports me.
Yes. It's the Trump playbook. Kanye really wants to walk in Trump's footsteps.
@@mahalallel2012 i love kanye. He's still king in his mind and that's all that matters. Even if he's doubted or told he's wrong. He feels like a king despite it all
I think Kanye West is just an extremely talented musician and a contrarian at his core. Which makes him stand out from the masses and makes him seem more forward thinking than he actually is.
When in reality he's not really thinking just acting on impulse. He shares a lot of the same qualities as Lou Reed (who unsurprisingly was a Kanye West fan)
This!!!
I disagree, Kanye music was never anything to write home about, he was average at best.
@@Starfish-kx3du This is completely incorrect
"Extremely talented" is quite the stretch.
@@Starfish-kx3ducry
I learned from the last time to watch immediately
Bruh UA-cam hit (6lack) folks w takedowns quicker than mma
What got removed?
Same!!!
If you can easily separate art from the artist, it means they haven't put any of their real selves or beliefs into that art. Which makes it empty and pointless and not worth listening to anyway.
If they have put themselves into that art, and you're still trying to separate them, then you're trying to do the impossible, because they're inherently linked. It also means you just don't care about the real world impact of supporting certain people. And there is most certainly real world impact. These things have been studied.
That's not accurate. There have been many artists who are also rapists, and close to none of them have done art that says "hey I'm a rapist!". Artists, great or otherwise, frequently intentionall try to hide their crimes. They do not put those parts of themselves into their art.
Remember the "I miss the old Kanye" skit he did? Yeah, it's next to "foreshadowing" in the dictionary
Unc annihilated the thumbnail game with this one
separating art from the artist makes more sense when the artist isnt alive, and still not only benefiting from their work, and also actively using that benefit (money, power, or influence) on doing real harm in the world.
but for people like kanye and JK, like... cmon. XD
This, its fucking wild this concept seems to be so hard for some people
You should NEVER separate an artist from their art!!!
People!! For F--ksakes the expression is "Separate the Man from his Arguments" because a crazy person can still make logical arguments so you need to make sure the words are correct even if the speaker is a weirdo.
Art is an expression of the artists soul and where it fits into the world. You cannot separate the artist from the art. That's wrong!!!
@@ExistenceUniversity nah a bad person can still make good art too it's basically the same thing with a crazy person making a logical argument..
@@afrosamourai400 No. Just no.
@@ExistenceUniversity why no? Can't a bad person make good art?
Im Jewish. Kanye is my favorite artist of ALL TIME. Since "Through the Wire." I played that shit 6000 times. I went to every single concert he had. He used to speak about self empowerment and confidence in a way that I would listen to every interview. As I got older, I learned just because someone is a musical genius doesnt make them a genius in everything else. When kanye used to drop it used to be an event. You KNEW you were getting a piece of art. This album, and the last few, theres no direction.
Can't imagine how terrible I would feel as a Jewish dude if my favorite artist told me he loved Hitler
cope
Cool story bro, Free Palestine
@@thomascheckie2394 Not as bad as Palestinians being betrayed by their favorite artists for sure
@@miseendriste6337 it's probably pretty equivalent, anyway you know Jews and Zionist are two different things right? Just like Palestinians are not the same as Hamas.
I loved reading Orson Scott Card at one point. His ideas in Enders Game and Speaker for the Dead really opened up my mind and helped me develop my cognitive empathy but listening to him after the whole thing with gay marriage being legalized, he started sounding like my homophobic parents. Getting married to a dude to piss them off was totally worth it.
Bruh you married someone just to piss off your parents? Yikes!
@@dahliaherrod4301 i don't even know how to reply to this lol
they were making a joke
@@Plain--Jane oh I know.
Funny how Kanye wore a Burzum shirt, cuz Burzum is another case of the art and artist being inseparable clown shit.
I'd argue that when it comes to Burzum it might be easier to separate for someone who's ignorant, since he has a lot of instrumental stuff and most of his stuff is about elves or whatever.
But still, if you can put 2+2 together you can notice that his whole thing is creating this mythological world and a pseudo archeological vision of old Norse history as a part of his white supremacist and antisemitic ideology.
everything is separable except for people who go into things with a closed mind and a morally pure attitude.
I'm so glad you decided to talk about this because literally just earlier today i got an ad on my facebook for kanye's website where he's selling his shitty vultures merch for like $20 a piece. which, cool, i'm glad normal people can afford his stuff if they want it but at this point i wouldn't be caught dead giving that man any of my support, much less my money. separating the art from the artist is one thing, but when the art holds the same problematic message the creator personally holds, it's time we start having a conversation about media literacy and where the limit on that separation begins and ends. ESPECIALLY when it's someone as immensely popular and influential as kanye.
Legit. Like this merch HAS alt right art on it and this is the only time he's selling his stuff for this cheap. It's malicious at this point.
@@ironickomedakin Alt right art?
@ironickomedakin He wanted to sell $20 Yeezy mech for years but his business partners wouldn't let him.
I really need to cop a pair of those Yeezy Pods and that shirt with the cool eagle emblem on it
@@houragents5490 i’m aware. it’s still really funny & mighty coincidental that finally he’s able to release his merch the way he wants to and nobody wants it because it’s nazi shit.
Yo, being a hiphop fan from Chicago and it sound like we are around the same age of 30ish, thank you. I was a huge Kanye fan who fell off after the life of Pablo. If you listen to Kanye over the years, everything he has ever said he was gonna do, He did, even if ppl thought he was crazy. He made his own reality and I think that’s why us as millennials loved him but I don’t think it made him happy like he thought. We are starting to see that and I just hope he doesn’t crash out until the point of no return. I hope his mini me, North can help him see another purpose to focus on fr so he won’t. Thanks for your perspective I still gotta check out vultures to form my own opinion about the album.
Leave ideology aside and you will realize he never fell off. He is not as consistent as College dropout, Late reg, MBDTF Kanye but many gems in his recent catalog and still groundbreaking with the neo-gospel productions and others. 20+ years later and he is still innovative and relevant musically.
I've struggled with this topic as well as a big fan of Ender's game and Orson Scott Card's other main series, Homecoming. The truth is, you are correct. The artist creates the art and the art is created by their views, values, imagination, knowledge, etc. In addition, any financial support is used by the artist to push their own agendas. Card used some of the money I gave him to fight against equal rights. I can't buy any of his art without directly supporting his beliefs so I've chosen to find other artists to support.
I'm a fan of classic Metal music, I have to separate art from artist on a regular basis. But sometimes, it just isn't possible.
That always strikes me as so strange when it happens! The most mixed up for me is S.O.D. Some of the members have learned and changed, some have doubled down on their beliefs.
Exactly. Love RATM. But, I'm not about to be a commie. I respect talent/art first. Personal views after. If they align with mine, great. If not, then hey I look the other way🤷🏽♂️
For me someone being a sex criminal is always a hard line. I cant ever forgive Inquisition for what Dagon was caught doing, and I cant believe we arent making a bigger stink as a community about the fact that hes been platformed and is releasing music again.
Same here! I know it happened before but i haven't seen such a division in mainstream hip hop with a controversial artist in a while.
Hopefully some people have a better grasp on why its not easy to put an artist aside if they did something sketchy.
@@kyleway8513"b..b..but the riffs!!". Yeah its hard to get over something like that. The frog vocals were a turn off anyway
It's hard for me to separate art from artists, as an artist myself. I love all your talking points. Channel is important, these thoughts and messages are important.
The main problem with "separating the art from the artists" is that it only works for people who can't grasp themes, subtext, innuendo, and dramatic irony.
If you're watching any Star Wars movie and you legitimately can't see all the obvious parallels between the bad guys and real-world nazis, you'll probably be more than able to separate the art from the artists.
If you're watching Indiana Jones 1, 3, or 5, and you can't spot the criticism of the kinds of fascism practiced in America, you'll probably do great at separating the art from the artist.
If you think Thanos was right, you probably don't even know the artist exists.
If you watch any of the goblin banker scenes in Harry Potter, and you didn't have a problem with them using "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" as concept art and a lore bible, you're probably wondering why anyone would even need to separate the art from the artist.
Sure, these are all movies, but if anything, music should be harder to separate the art and the artist. With music, the art is literally just the words of the artist delivered in a way that leads to them being repeated over and over inside your head.
As a side note... yes, Kanye obviously has Manic Depressive Disorder and periodically refuses treatment. You know what is true about the vast majority of people with mental illnesses, learning disabilities, or any form of nuro-divergence? They don't become nazis. ADHD doesn't cause you to pal around with neo nazi youtubers. Aspergers doesn't make Mien Kampf more compelling to read. Autism doesn't make you round people up and put them in camps. Mental illness is no excuse for being or working with fascists.
I have a question
what do you do if you want to make art, but think that the majority of people in the world see you as a bad person or hold beliefs inside that people think are harmful
is it just not in the cards for you to make art
Like is it not worth it
cause everyone should be obligated to not have any interest in you off the jump
and a big part of art is the satisfaction of having what you have to say, and your experiences resonating with people in some way
so if people aren't allowed to do that cause it might cause harm
what's the point
It's actually the opposite. Separating the art from the artist shows that you can have a critical and analitical mind. A mind that can absorve the complexity of life and understand that there are no easy answers and that you NEED to apply your critical thinking in everything and not hide your head in the sand and see the world in black and white terms. Only fools obssesed with "being good" or wanting to ride on moral high horses all the time will never separate the art from the artist. It's literally not having the intelectual capability to disect the world and simply put things in dichotomic terms. I pity those people to be honest.
@@midnighter2k That wasn't an invitation, that was me wanting to understand what someone w his worldview would do with someone who has my problems, FROM HIM. Not from you.
Just had this convo with my roommate the other day. I can’t separate the art from the artist with Kanye because his transgressions hurt too much. College dropout through graduation was my introduction into hip hop. Sad.
I hate when people blame Ye's bullshit on his mental problems. I know a lot of people with mental issues that dont go full fascist and go defcon 3 on the Jews. I've been a fan of his for a long time, but he's a rotten, nasty, hateful person. No redemption and no mercy from me. Later playa
Just because the people you know don't do it doesn't mean it doesn't come from mental issues dude, at the same time you're not entitled to give your support either.
The way I like to put it is that “being an asshole” isn't a mental illness. I came up with that line to talk about the people trying to diagnose Trump, but it fits here, too.
Downplaying someone's mental illness is not a good look.
@@FrancoisDressler assuming people with mental illnesses will automatically be racist, terrible people is actively ableist and gives a bad reputation to everyone else who suffers from mental issues
He's been diagnosed with mental illness @@whym6438
J cole called it with false prophets
Now that's a fucking rapper, God damn all this thinking about how Kanye used to be good when I can just go listen to 2014 Forest Hills Drive for the 34th time
And rhymefest called him out too
Cole still claims False Prophet wasn't about Kanye and I *still* don't believe him.
@@KiraDaBeastNY lmao yeah we know it's about Kanye it might be about other rappers too but Kanye is the archetype
@@KiraDaBeastNY he’s probably saying that to duck backlash that he still gets from Ye fans to this day. There’s this one mf that said “If Kendrick made it, it’d have a lot more weight” as if the song itself doesn’t have weight
I would love for you and Fantano to talk again. I really enjoyed the two of you talking about music.
I was a pretty big believer in separating the art from the artist but then the last eight years happened.
I’m here for the light work TOOL arc
Dang, it’s been 3 years? I found FD with the edgelord movies video followed by Bo Burnham and Kanye vids. Now the B Sides channel is as big as main was. Love it
You know, parasocial relationships are so crazy because even though you're well aware of the fact that it's not real, it still hits all the same. Realizing I could no longer separate the art from the artist felt like the death of part of me because the music was so intertwined in my life and marked pivotal points throughout my formative years. When I realized MBDTF was the last Kanye album I wholly liked or bought was heartbreaking. To say that Kanye's music was the soundtrack to my life can not be overstated. Throughout middle school, high school, and college, I was consumed with Kanye. He was my alarm clock, ringtone, study playlist, gym playlist, got me hyped for job interviews, and I went to sleep listening to his music. If I was listening to music, which I did all day, it was Kanye. So when things started to go downhill, I tried my hardest to hold on and hoped the Kanye I loved would return, but it started to hurt to even hope. Eventually, I realized I had only given him so much grace because I didn't want to let to go, and I was being a hypocrite because I would never let that crap slide with someone I didn’t like. It's hard being an old Kanye fan when you're so vehemently against the things he says, does, and the trash music that has been put out for years. It feels like the death of a deep, long friendship that you've never been able to completely heal from because often that friend throws it in your face, with their actions, why you're no longer friends.
The great thing about Vultures is that it sucks ass so we don't have to separate art from artist at all.
My moment when I had to leave Kanye was actually that bleached ahole line. Like this man thinks I’m stupid.
We all come to a point where we either decide to stop being suckers or we numb ourselves to reality and continue to suckle the teat.
The recent video of Kanye in the airport, answering questions from paparazzi (im guessing), really shined a light on his current state of mind. He just looked and sounded desperate while trying to convince the viewer (and maybe himself too) that he is in fact a confident genius that wins no matter what.
Right now we have the most art that has ever been made and tomorrow we will have even more. There's just far too much good entertainment these days that I will never have enough time to get around to or maybe even hear about just because they never get the attention that their work deserves. I have so many options to choose from I don't feel a desperate need to hold on to a few harmful artists and worry about some vacuum that will never be filled because there are just so many others who are more worthy and could possibly even be better as both people and artists.
Perfectly said..
That poppity scoop song is fire
The "Everything I Am" beat in the background is fantastic
"Fake it till you make it"
Also means
"if you fake it long enough it will become reality "
When I hear Em say some off the wall things I assume he’s 80% joking. Ye on the other hand I assume is 100% honest because he lacks the ability to filter his words.
I agree with waiting a while for a part 3 but with that being said I will be patiently waiting for that upload 🙇🏼♀️
Audio is fixed, thanks!
Gratitude for sharing.
Late Registration, My Beautiful Twisted Fantasy and 808s & Heartbreaks are classics, to me.
Life of the party, Hurricane, 24, He gave it all, sunday service and a lot more recent stuff from Kanye is fire. Folks not listening with their ears, hating despise the longevity and creativity for ideological reason. On my part I will enjoy every chance I have to be blessed by the abundance and variety of bangers Ye creates.
I’ve always felt like he’s overrated but could never fully understand his actions (and still don’t tbh) until I found out that he has a porn addiction. Like a really BAD one. Then many of his actions, his lyrical content, his lifestyle and even the way he publicises his relationships and women, began to make so much sense. I know he’s been battling it for years but in this current music era, it feels like he’s stopped trying to overcome it.
mental health is a cop out. he uses having bipolar when it suits him.
you cant separate art from the artist. the shit that you dont agree with is the inspiration for the art.
Everyone deserve ls support managing mental health struggles. It never absolves consequences for the impact your action has on others. Basically Fiq said what I’ve long said “Explain, not Excuse.”
@@JenSell1626 generally speaking, you're correct. specifically speaking, kanye uses mental health to get over on yall because you'll believe it. he conveniently only has it when he does dumb shit.
He doesn’t really apologize for the bad things though. Sometimes he pretends to and goes right back to doing the same ish. Also I never heard him say it’s because I’m Bipolar I said xyz, he almost always doubles down actually. But I’ll also admit I’m not following him that closely and never have so I only get the highlights whenever he is trending.
If he apologizes at all he just says something along the lines of that’s not what I meant, y’all misunderstood at least from what I have seen
He doesn't even believe he's bipolar anymore, he now says that he has "slight signs of autism" from his 2002 car accident, which is so funny because one could say "at least he's not using his mental health a a suitable cop out" but his self-diagonisis is also very weird
I want yall to keep this same energy when ya cry victim - Mental health is a cop out
I have to separate Art from Artist... Ted Nugent from the song "Stranglehold" because that bass line is too good.
Ted Nugent can Joe Rogan himself till his heart stops.
@@OmertaVII Bloat Rogan
Ted Nugent has always challenged one’s ability to separate the art from the artist
I've met Derek St. Holmes, who sang that song. I still have his autograph in a box somewhere. Seemed like a much more reasonable guy than Ted.
If we had to judge art by the way artists behaved there would almost be no art
Makes me happy that you and fantano have landed in similar spaces. Shows the consistency you guys have on these topics
I have yet to hear a convincing argument for “separate the art from the artist” as we understand that concept now, essentially as a free pass to be a shitty person. Art is intrinsically tied to its artist. I believe all, or most, art is autobiographical. If the art came from nowhere and means nothing, it is not art. You don’t have to be perfect or even a “good person.” You just have to not be a shitty person. How can you defend someone’s art after they’ve been actively harmful and that harm is present in the art? If R. Kelly only sings about sex and we KNOW he’s a sexual predator, how do you defend that? Kanye’s art has always been about Kanye. There is no separation. So when he reveals himself to be a full on Nazi, we need to treat his art like Nazi art
Because 99.9% of his discography has nothing to do with ''nazism''
Ok actual question then. Can the art be considered bad because the artist is mean/hateful and bad. Can a piece of art that would be considered bad actually be seen as good because the artist is good/kind/loving and giving back?
I had to let Ye go awhile ago. He's too anti black and otherwise problematic. I've let a lot of modern hip hop go. I still stay connected to the culture. But lately I've been listening to TOOL, Queens Of The Stone Age, KNOWER and Supergrass. They fit the vibe I've been on lately. I'll miss Ye. He was great at one point. I have faith hip hop will morph into something even better. I have faith in my culture. We've always been on the bleeding edge of culture and defined what's relevant.
Respectfully, music just in a general sense hasn’t been on the “bleeding edge” since like…Miles Davis. Artists in their respective genres have pushed those forward and pushed the envelope but it hasn’t gone beyond that. If it seems like it has, once you look you see that usually has zero to do with music and everything to do with the power of marketing, which is a pretty poor barometer for “defining a culture”, which is something we don’t even need in the first place; we should be defining ourselves as individuals first anyhow..
Ye is not the culture tho, there are so many good young mc and rappers out there to listen from j.i.d, mick jenkins, vince staples, big Krit, cordae, saba, earl switshirt, kendrick, tyler the creator, denzel cury, joey badass, j cole, isaiah rashad, ab soul, billy woods etc
@@thestarseeker8196Most of the real pioneering rn is in noise/art pop but they're not my cup of tea.
And while there's not as much pure originality going around I feel like artists have never been less beholden to trends and we're getting much more casual blending of genres on the charts/radio.
This reminds me of JK Rowling, who is an example of being unable to extricate the art from the artist, for me (HP Lovecraft is another).
This may seem like a non-sequitur, but I was watching a video about trans rights and remembered your efforts to make your channels a safe space for trans folks. I'm not trans, but I am LGBTQIA+ (Q, I, and +), and I wanted to thank you for that.
i don't like the idea of separating art from artist because i think in trying to do that you miss out on something really valuable - appreciating as a positive the connection between good art and bad people. to your point, bad people make good art all the time, and i think it's worthwhile to find the roots of that good art within the bad person, rather than just setting the bad person aside and ignoring that those roots exist.
of course you're spot on that once the art is no longer good, there's no reason to do that. and there's something to be said for the way living a reactionary worldview decimates your ability to make good artistic choices. but i think if kanye was still putting out peak work there would still be value in appreciating his art, even if the negative worldview is featured prominently and explicitly endorsed within it.
If you haven’t read it yet, I highly recommend the book Monsters by Claire Dederer, which deep-dives into the conflict of loving art made by monstrous artists. She approaches the conflict from a variety of perspectives and her arguments are more interesting and sophisticated than the usual debates around the topic.
It's literally impossible to separate art from the artist, because the entire art exists only because of the context behind the artist. If the artist didn't go through something or have a specific mindset behind the impetus of creating that art, then the art wouldn't exist. The art *is* the artist. No matter what it means to you, there is authorial intent, or at least authorial context behind everything.
The mindset behind separation is trash. Abandon it. If you can't walk away from a piece of art because it meant something to you, then that's because you never understood the art to begin with. Also, stop defining your persona by works from others. Make your own work, whatever that might be. You are you, and everything that isn't you isn't you. Everything that isn't physically you, isn't you, and is ephemeral. Jettison it and move on. Find meaning within yourself.
you went so far with this that you started a different topic. people are having problems reconciling the duality. that's all it is.
The album is amazing, well put together. Play it all day, every day
no sir it`s bad :))
Amazing album
When Varg sings his praises, it's over.
It’s so refreshing to hear an intelligent take on Kanye’s mess these days. Loved the video! Subscribed! ❤
Ever since that "pooping scoop" song I knew Kanye was cooked musically. I haven't purposefully listened to any of his new stuff since he was talking about black people. And now.... Yeah not regretting jumping of that train early 😂
But I am looking funny at people who choose to work with him. Especially now.
It's "poopity scoop" and it was a dig at Drake. There's like one million articles talking about the actual meaning of it. It's just comedy.
@@arthurg.calixto3338 I shouldn't have to do research for a song like that. That shit was like 8 years ago.
It wasn't even funny, that shit was stupid 😂 if a "diss song" can't stand on its own it ain't good. This legit what fd was saying. Making bad shit on purpose don't make you a genius. And from what I heard it ain't gotten better.
The beat was ridiculously fire though?
@@TheBigTerm I haven't heard it in a while. All I remember is the "poopity scoop de poop" part. But I'll take your word for it 😂
@@ItachiUchiha-sh6of But atleast judge him on an actually bad song instead of freaking out over a literal shitpost, or else the argument just feels in bad faith.
Thanks for your outlook FD, I think this is a well-informed and thoughtful summary of the situation with Kanye and a general perspective I mostly align with.
I don't think that we should separate the art from the artist. As an artist myself I am skeptical of the idea that someone can make a piece of art without it being intrinsically tied to who that artist is, what they believe, their way of seeing and therefore interpreting and translating their perspective into a piece of art or music or media. To clarify, I do not think this means that people cannot enjoy art made by problematic people (a notable exception being art that is explicitly harmful or touts harmful, bigoted, etc. rhetoric-- e.g. Burzum-- I will meet fans of such media with a well-deserved side-eye). However, platforming them, supporting them financially, riding for them publicly-- that is wrong. Personally, I prefer not to listen to or otherwise enjoy the art of people I find problematic or outright evil, but far be it from me to force that upon other people. Just don't give them a platform. Don't give their shit a springboard. Simple as that, in my opinion.
Agreed
Artists make the art in question. In most cases, it is pretty hard to separate to begin with but it doesn't help that some artists can't seem to separate their problematic behavior from their art either.
A similar issue to Kanye was similar to what happened to certain groups of fans when “One In A Million” by Guns N Roses came out. My mom was a middle school teacher in LA at the time it came out and she told me all the young 1st generation Hispanic girls were in tears after learning the artist they loved hates people/families like them at the time. It’s one of the pieces that the artist’s views are inserted in and said directly to the consumer.
i only listen ethically sourced AI kanye
2 wrongs don’t make a right
I get why some people can't just drop Kanye. Some of Roman Polanski's movies have said so much to who I am as a person today, but I totally understand if someone has never seen any of him movies because he is a creep. It is definitely a case by case basis.
Yeah man Chinatown still the best noir film hands down and you just can't take that away from him. It is what it is.
new album is great tho
I love your Kanye video please do part 3
Kanye will always be remembered for the MAJOR impact he had in rap / hip hop and our culture but I seriously said deuces ✌🏽and RIP ⚰️ to the old Yeezy, the Blood Diamonds, collabing with Slum Village and Little Brother Yeezy after his mom passed! 😭 with all the trash and negativity flooding podcasts and headlines these days I am comfortable and at complete peace totally ignoring certain people and brands at my big age. Somethings just aren’t even worth paying attention to anymore. We have enough drama and headaches to deal with IRL on a daily basis. I will always love the Old Yeezy.
Fighting for ownership is what he’s doing now but you’re so brainwashed you can’t see past the negative narrative they’re pushing on him.
1:30 that mustache should have clued everyone in.
So I’m a hobbyists novel writer. And a big part of my growth (maybe 5 years ago) is that even novel writing, the most solitary art ever, is a community effort.
You NEED beta readers, you need other writers to compete against, you have to READ! You need editors. Writing programs and workshops, it’s a group effort! And so is Hip Hop. Once you are disconnected from community you cannot make good art. You just can’t.
Kanye is never gonna be good again because he isn’t part of the hip hop community like he was.
If no one wants your art, especially if you abused people, then that person shouldn’t make art, because making art is s privilege, and not a right.
@@Dave102693 I’m not 100% sure I agree with that. Even George W Bush (noted problematic person) deserves to make art. I think it’s a human impulse.
Now I’m not sure everyone is entitled to a platform or an audience for their art…
When I go out to the bar with my friend, he plays the same 6 Kanye songs on Touch Tunes while we are playing pool. He's a lefty like me, but he was also a way bigger Kanye head than me. I'm always looking around the room for someone to be WAY to happy that Kanye is on.
I dislike to sound mentally insane but HEAR ME OUT,
Artists express their personal values or play with personal thoughts and evolutions of these thoughts through- art... Its just that. But to me *AS AN ARTIST MYSELF,* i feel like this ''connection' is almost a clear distinction because as an artist you get to do *whatever* you want and express that 'creativity' to limits that can almost be outside of yourself or "whats right" ,
I feel like there's always an infnite amount of layers throughout art, I mean not *all of his songs* express that and i mean i think its more about separating whats problematic with what holds sentiment and what people want to hear,
Like i mean ill still bump his older music...
kanye has the midas touch
Honestly, whenever I listened to his music its always felt intrinsically connected to both the out-of-pocketness, creative strokes of genius, and narcissistic grandiosity that comes with his personality/mental health. I dunno if it's just my own perspective as a black female artist with mental illness and the ways that I can relate to those highs & lows. But I genuinely never thought someone could produce the mixes he created or his shock-value lyrics without his positionality and bipolarity. You can always see his tie ins to other black, troubled artists, for example: when he pulls inspiration from people like Gil-Scott Heron on flashing lights. That remix makes you feel so vain and grandiose, but if you're a real one who knows what it's sampled from the original is an incredibly dark, reflective, isolated, and emotionally heavy song. He'd have to be tapped into the ability to feel both those extremes at the same time. Things like that were never lost on me.
Yea. This is basically how I felt since 2018. Even if I wanted to listen to the new music outside of the context of what was happening outside of it, I don’t think I would be capable of it.