153,000 people couldn't hear the difference...
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- Опубліковано 4 чер 2024
- Well, this was a video I didn't think I'd have to film! After 153,000 views, more than 1000 comments and dozens of email and DMs, I decided to share the result of the audio test in last weeks video.
The comments section was almost a perfect split between people choosing A or B, with a minority sharing that they couldn't tell which one was high-passed.
While I had everyone focussed on A or B, the reality is that the high pass filter was turned on and off 4 times in each example. There was no switch at the cross between A and B although many people claimed to hear a big difference right at the transition point. This has been incredibly valuable for me and has made me entirely rethink how I present audio examples, before and after tests and plugin reviews on the channel. It has also shown me how deeply ingrained some audio myths are, through repetition over many years, and that this content is worth continuing. I'm learning more with each video too.
Let me know what topics you want me to cover next time!
0:00 - Intro
0:45 - Audio test
1:05 - The comments section
1:45 - The answer
3:05 - Warning for FL Studio users
3:50 - Thanks for watching
FL Studio Users: The reason I would advise against using the "20/30Hz + 18kHz Cut" preset is because it has been brought to my attention that many users simply apply this when mastering and are not actually listening to the changes in the audio. Objectively, a 30Hz filter is far too high for mastering 99% of audio.
The mix was Cruise Control by Jason Jass.
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I was listening on HDMI and definitely smelled a difference.
That’s cheating!
@@inthemix needed to add more compassion on the IQ first though.
My DisplayPort begs to differ. 😜
That's funny, because in top end DAC-s You use HDMI port to send uncompressed digital audio, for highest fidelity.
😂😂😂
I'm actually relieved. I couldn't hear the difference and thought I might be sonically challenged 😀
Me too, and I think that is an inherent side effect to this test is that if you can’t “trick” yourself to hear a difference, you may be more inclined to self-censor your actual perception.
Had 2 engineers argue over a 1 dB cut at 400hz. One liked it and 1 didn't. After several minutes I showed them that the eq they were adjusting was not patched in.
It's hilarious but it happened to me more than once that I tweaked a bypassed effect thinking "the change is subtle but I like it better" only to feel like a complete moron the moment I realized it was bypassed all along.🤣🤣
This sort of thing happens all the time!
But it sounds so much better after the edit in my headphones.
Sorry Dave they're not plugged in yet.
@@DeltaWhiskeyBravo13579 lol
LMFAOOO@@nerdexproject
well you definitely got us in both halves
If this doesn't get top comment...
This proves that you can't trust anyone commenting on the internet and that the placebo effect is alive and well in audio. I've been saying for years that people would fail blind tests on many many things to do with mixing, analog vs digital etc. Don't trust anyone's opinion. Use logic and your ears.
I couldn't agree more. I'm going to paste what I typed in the description because it fits:
"This has been incredibly valuable for me and has made me entirely rethink how I present audio examples, before and after tests and plugin reviews on the channel. It has also shown me how deeply ingrained some audio myths are, through repetition over many years, and that this content is worth continuing. I'm learning more with each video too."
I am incredibly thankful that the community is honest enough to share their thoughts in the comments, otherwise this experiment would have been pointless!
@@inthemix 👍🏻
@@inthemix I went in with the idea that it was a trick question, and still heard some weird difference with low end when one was engaged. There was a switch, I heard it, but I did not realize how many times it switched. I only noticed it once and I always listened with my eyes closed. I generally don't care much about that stuff anyways lol.
@@inthemix
My question is
Was ist randomly bypassed on and of
Or exactly at the Same positions in the Tracks ?
If Not to me i thought i Heard one Spot in sich IT was turned on in B and off in A
If IT was exactly the Same Seconds in both Tracks turned on or Off then Something tricked me twice in This Video
@@inthemixPlot Twist: inthemix is now 'saying' that the high pass was disengaged / reengaged 4 times in A and B, but this entire time A and B are 100% identical. He just wants to see how many people now claim that they can hear the 4 engagements / disengagements this time around, even though they aren't there, lol!:)
"A" was more yellow until the cranberries started squeaking towards the end of each transient decay when the kick was rotating in the stereo sidebands.
😂
Expectation bias, gets me every time.
It gets us all!
As my audio teacher used to say: "Don't mix with your eyes, mix with your ears." Awesome test by the way!
@@Audiomuscle No, but the whole point was that our eyes would lead us to believe something is happening when our ears hear nothing. So the eyes are actually causing a problem which wouldn't exist otherwise. It's kind of like "if a tree falls in the forest and no one is around, does it make a sound?" except it's more like "if you have a HP filter turning off and on repeatedly and 120,000 people with every manner of listening device can't hear the difference, are you really using a HP filter?"
but i guess u just mean our eyes would be helpful to tell us how useless our ears are :p@@Audiomuscle
My old mastering teacher at university did a similar test like this in our first lesson with him, but instead he told us to guess what the difference between two near identical tracks was. We all had different guesses, but the true answer that no one got was that one of the track was reduced by 1 dB. We ended up learning a lot from him, but the biggest thing was to just trust our ears and to not try to do things because someone said to do it
What an awesome teacher imo
Was that a setup for him explaining fletcher munson curves? lol
@@bitemyshite Yes haha
@@AntSwift Haha brilliant! Then I agree wholeheartedly with TierHarribel. Great teacher.
Thats actually hilarious, I was listening real hard and was like welp.. I got these decent KRK's but they are obviously not that great cause I cant hear the difference.
Love how those audiophiles came up with amazing theories of how wrong they are XD
It was a real eye opener for me too. I don't want to discourage anyone though. I'm glad people felt safe enough to be honest and share what they thought they heard otherwise the test would have been pointless.
I felt bad for the folk, like you, who felt their equipment wasn't letting them hear the difference!
Not gonna lie, I kinda expected there to be some kind of "trick" in the comparison, but then again , I couldn't tell what it was. :D gg to the winners!
When studying Psychology my dissertation was on the 'Priming Effect'. I changed one single word in the instructions of a test given to 2 groups and the results showed this affected the scores that resulted. It's terrifying how we can be manipulated and is used EVERY SINGLE DAY in the realm of politics, PR, marketing and sales. I now live everyday with knowledge we are all constantly fooling ourselves. This was a great test, great job Michael!
Michael pulled a Fricker and I'm all for it.
Brilliant! I didn't answer, but was convinced A was filtered and B not. Oddly, I thought the same today listening to your recap on this video. Fun.
great video!! loved your explanation on how much question priming matters and how that can effect what we hear
I closed my eyes and opened them when I thought I heard a change and was surprised to see same letter on the screen each time.
Same! And either with the extra loud low-end, it sounded equally fine either way.
I did on A, but only on A. Then I managed to convince myself it was an illusion. So what conclusion can be made from that? lol
This was an awesome series ❤️🔥
Awesome man! Well done!
what a plot twist!
i was definitely expecting some sort of “gotcha” type thing, but never would have guessed you automated the filter in both examples!
good test! i’ve been thinking a lot about phase shifting lately and clearly i need to stop lol
Hahah, this is amazing.
I couldn't for the life of me hear a difference whatsoever so I was like "damn, I guess I really need to train my ears more"
But knowing this, I don't feel so bad about it anymore
😂😂😂
Great Video.Well said. I think a similar video should also be done comparing the "analog warmth" given by certain eq and compression plugins and a "clean" sound from plugins like fabfilter etc. I believe it will have a very similar result to this.
I absolutely need to do this. I think I will have to consider what sample rates to capture, edit and post the audio at…
@@inthemix you would also have to consider the non linearity of the analog filters. Would love to see that video.👌
That would be super interessting. I always love the idea of analog warmth and use many plug-ins for it, but if I'm being honest, I'm never sure it actually does anything. Many times I put an "analog" compression plugin on a vocal track, thinking it would turn it to gold, and then end up throwing it away again and using FabFilter C2 instead, because I get better results with it. But something in the back of my brain always tells me "C2 is digital, it surely can't sound as nice as a 1176 emulator plugin". Would be great to clear up that myth.
Absolutely brilliant! 😅
People commenting about how big their speakers are and how special their headphones are = "my opinion is valid because brand + price tag"
It's very common nowadays for people to try to use credentials as a substitute for credibility.
That is such a good way to put it. True in almost all hobbies and professions, sadly!
Amazing. I thought I could definitely here a difference between A and B, but after closing my eyes so I couldn't see the letters on screen I realised I really couldn't hear any difference after all. Fantastic test.
Great experiment!
Its great that you have hi-lighted the way in which our brain can fool us and this is a challenge I have as I mix my own tracks. So what can we do to avoid this pitfall? How to ensure we are not tricking ourselves and to learn how to judge and manage the best quality?
Many thanks for you sir. I'm so proud of you. I hope one day became pro producer.
Thanx a lot! 👍💚
Hey, that result really is fantastic and shows a lot to us, that we shouldn't see things two-sided all the time, but I still have a question: Even though we can't actively tell a difference between HPF on or off, our subconscious brain might still be able to measure the difference, without us noticing it. So I wonder if it's still relevant, similar to a person thar likes a specific sort of music without being able to tell why they like it.
Thanks for your effort put into the video!
Thank you! And one reason more to not look at the screen when making musical decisions. 🌻
Well played Michael. This feels as good as a RickRoll.
That was fun I'd like to see more vids like this.
Only thing I was sure about is that it wasn't a simple A/B comparison. But I absolutely couldn't figure out what you were actually doing, because I couldn't hear any difference at any time. Still can't. I listened with really good headphones, I listened with monitors, I listened with only the subwoofer. Even now, knowing what you did, I can't hear it anywhere. I honestly suspected that you just played the same clip twice, but your test was actually a lot more brilliant. Great way of showing that it simply doesn't matter and people tend to stress about nothing.
What a genius move dude!
Makes people more believe in their ears again
Will there be any phase issue when using stock plugin of fl parametric eq 2 , using as a high pass on the 40Hz cut ??
Lmao! Well played, sir 😂😂
It was a great experiment thanks to the willingness of the community to share their honest thoughts!
I would like to you to make a video about the FL studio Eq 20h-18Kh preset, that my go to preset for Mastering even sometimes I adjust for some projects...
I do agree with the conclusion here but I don't think the experiment was conducted as cleanly as possible. You could define your variables more clearly if you did a classic A B blind test and just measured the statistical significant of the effect. By toggling the high-pass 4-times per section there's a high chance that the individual moments in the arrangement/mix would complicate any noticeable effects of the high-pass filter. Curious what you think about that experiment design consideration?
Great 👍 video, Michael.
I have learnt alot from your side thanks for helping us by giving very useful content ❤
You're welcome!
This is hilarious! Well played.
It proves yet again that if ‘audio’ ‘engineers’ had to blind test like Master Sommeliers do in the wine world they’d be screwed ie: listen to this and tell me everything- no info, no comparisons, just your ears and knowledge with no BS.
I lost count how many times I have been tweaking a control in a mix, thinking 'Ah that's better' only to realise the control was doing nothing! Sometimes it's just all in your head! BIG Love from Techtone in the UK 🙏
Haha this is so awesome. Psychology is so cool. Awesome videos Michael!
I literally couldn't tell a difference and thought my ears just weren't trained enough to hear that sort of thing, as I have a lot of trouble making out sounds in the low bass frequency range
It's kind of comforting to know that small differences in those super low frequency ranges don't actually matter that much, makes me feel marginally closer to getting to that level where I can easily mix by ear instead of relying on visual EQ to pick things out for me
haha I'm relieved because on my monitors I couldn't hear a difference (even though I tried really hard to find smth)... 😅
on another note, what's the track ID, I liked the groove of that ☺
I put 1-2 seconds surrounding the switch into my DAW and I am sure that there was a difference, as it was noticeable even without the visual indicator you provided (given that whatever I noticed was the high pass and not some other subtle voicing change or something). I'm a bit disappointed that I solely focused on that particular part and completely ignored the rest, but I wouldn't have noticed the other switches anyway as the only reason I was able to pick it out was your indicator and replaying that snippet over and over. No one would do that to the music music they are actively trying to enjoy listening to. What I'm now interested in is whether this difference would be more significant for tracks played on large venues where you can physically feel the vibrations, or rather if there's any application where it would still be worthwhile to be attentive to such subtle changes.
There was no switch between A and B…the nearest switch is a few seconds after B is displayed on the screen. This only further proves the point!
Was just listening without checking on results or comments, and thought you didn't put a filter at all :D
Interested to know if the toggling of the eq coincides with the changes in notes/chords because I guess that would help mask it?
It most often transitioned during bass notes, not between. So it "should" have been most obvious but still no one could notice.
I'm just happy that I called it right and wasn't going crazy haha.😂
I did this years ago with brick wall limiting, whilst it was a far smaller pool of people I got the exact same results: No one heard it.
Everybody I got to do it were people I knew who'd complained about the "Loudness War". There have similar findings with mp3 vs PCM, analogue vs digital etc...
Also from my own experience, how to tell the difference (Its possible to learn in some cases) with a lot of this is often outside the enjoyment of music. What is required to tell the difference between mp3 & PCM isn't the usual buzzwords, you're listening to the noise floor, the music gets in the way!
Honest question… does YT manipulate the audio? Auto-compress, etc? I’d want to hear first gen (stem) in studio monitors to draw a confident conclusion. Good stuff, thanks.
How exactly was this filter set up? At what cutoff frequency?
Talk about why it is important to isolate your instruments, but also why we all try too achieve this through filters. A classic cut-off is usually a knob on music work stations like the Roland Fantom X series. (BTW add one of those to your collection!) How instrument isolation actually works, how or where it might remove identity, and what too listen for when you are unsure. We all can go straight to cutting the high or low frequencies. A low cut will decrease weight, and a high cut will hurt it's integrity, however, when all is said and done, it is all compiled into a single wave. With this understanding...direction for a clearer final signal and your ideas will never be in short supply, and after a few years of watching you, that is exactly what you continue too teach. So, I ask for more detail on these kinds of things.
A suggestion for anyone who might read this. Don't listen to your mix at full volume until you have applied all of your ideas. If you can listen at 20 - 30 % of the max volume you can pull....responsibly....and you FEEL that it is expressing your idea at such a low volume. Turn it up...REASPONSIBLY...and I believe you will be closer to your final product. If you max it out before you are finished, you will surely destroy your perspective and creativity.
Video idea: discuss perceived loudness and how to get as much loudness as possible from your mix, apart from just the obvious stuff. To explain a little more what I’d love to hopefully learn, I will shortly write the background for my question. I’m working on mixing the vocals for a song and I’m noticing a clear difference in perceived loudness between the verse which has a lot more bass in it and the hook which is a lot higher. Even when all of the parameters such as db and lufs are the same between the two, and when i’ve dynamically eq’d out annoying frequencies, they still sound very different. I’ve of course tried to compress and volume automate the vocals as much as possible even though the hook is very dynamic.
I hope this comment isn’t too long😂 Great video btw, keep it up!
This is nice. So what your saying is our minds play a placebo effect when listening to hpf’s or are we all just that bad at noticing low end? This is an intriguing study.
i think more people need to hear this message cause its easy to get discouraged when you think you are supposed to be doing so many things and its supposed to make a difference but you just arent able to tell if anything is happening. makes you feel like either your ears suck or you arent competent when really thats not true at all.
I mean, I knew it all along. Totally heard the filter going on and off in the previous video. I just didn't want to ruin it for other people... 😉
100% thanks for not ruining it lol
this was great. wonder if anyone analyzed the signal. jumping back and forth, couldn't tell and was gonna be surprised (and turned off) if this was a level of audiophile i've never seen before
Well played
I AM A BEGINNER...I WANT TO LEARN SOUND DESIGNING...MUSIC PRODUCTION...BASICALLY ZERO NOW....I JUST KNOW MUSIC THEORY AND PLAY PIANO....WHERE CAN I GET STARTED??? I WANT TO LEARN FROM ZERO ABOUT SOUNDS AND MIXING ETC......PLEASE HELP 🙏
Hey man… could you do a video on hearing the difference between lossy and lossless audio?
It seems like one of those things that would be very hard to tell the difference between
have you done anything about the various AI mastering services? if not i'd be very interested to hear your opinion. (couldn't hear any difference at all between A and B!)
I filmed and was editing together a video a few months ago but the pace and evolution of AI mastering meant that the video was already out of date. In short: AI mastering absolutely sucks for so many reasons. It is perfectly fine as a creative tool and for learning and experimenting. However, companies selling/shipping it as a final and complete solution should be ashamed of themselves. It is nowhere near a professional standard and misses 90% of what mastering is about.
someone's been watching specter media ! please do more of these i like this a lot!
I’ll happily do more! But what is specter media?
I missed the first one, but didn't expect to hear any difference. I was on a tablet.... lol. I thought the only way I might discern a difference was in my hand feeling vibrations, but no - although I picked one anyway, heh. Good demonstration.
what is that song? Are you gonna release it? I would love to hear it full
I was so disappointed not to hear any difference! Hahaha
Great test. I once saw a blind testing of Champagne brands by sommeliers and first place out of all the big names was....Tesco own brand.
blind testing wine experts is gold! put some red dye in a glass of white and they're lost 😂
Can we do more of these "contests" though?
Fascinating psychoacoustic exercise. What do you "think" you hear?
I've always had the attitude that if I can't really hear it it doesn't matter. Even if I think I can just hear it it still doesn't matter because no one else will notice. I've upset quite some people behaving like that!
didnt see the original video, but when i first listened to the parts in this video, i noticed that it felt like it was cutting in and out because there was a slight change in muddyness. but because i was told that i was supposed to look for differences between the parts i managed to trick myself into thinking that b was the one with high pass enabled. good job demonstrating why some types of study methodology that is considered valuable in science dont always work the way they should because of bias introduced by the study.
Haha, and if he said he was using a low-pass instead you would have heard that too.
I'm not great at genres. Anyone know what genre the example is? I'm really loving the vibe.
future progressive psy swing electro 🫱🏻🫲🏼
Wow that is an eye (or ear) opener for sure - i listened on my phone just now and really thought i heard a difference on B. Wow 😳
B has the highpass filter engaged. The low-end is much more punchy and the frequency range from 900HZ up is more expansive, clear-direct to the listener's ear. The filtering also add a tighter punch towards the lower frequencies below 120HZ for that "tamed-sound" (that gets grammy's!).
I edited my comment.
Now being fully serious, I thought the highpassed version was B for some reason, maybe I heard less low-end overall but I couldn't really tell. Great video to show us how wrong we were :).
Great trick!!!!
Great 🤩😄
Bro leave everything , i just wanna know why your face cut and cheecks line and jaw cut is so damm amazing ? How ? do you do any certain face exercise or something , please share about it !!
Weldone sir
Could you maybe release an a and a b clip playing the same part?
can you please make a tutorial explaining 'fruity waveshaper '
I was just reading of a study where they had violin players play Stradivarius or new violins (blind) and they mostly preferred the new violin, Fritz Curtin, Poitevineau et al (2012). There's also an experiment where they had professional wine tasters sample a red wine (that was in fact white wine with red dye) and none of them identified that fact. A bit of topic but I interesting anyway.
HE GOT US
Something way weirder for me, I thought B was slower than A
But I've noticed that when listening to techno/EDM with slowly evolving repetitive patterns, and while creating music myself as well.
Even when I just hear a metronome in a DAW, it sounds like it's eventually slowing down quite a bit. Must be some weird illusion -- maybe I've heard too many speeding-up risers in my life and my brain compensates.
I did something similar, but IRL, both with a live audience, and in the studio, dozens of times by now, switching from a hardware mix to an ITB mix, back and forth, and zero people have noticed so far. Key difference, I don't tell people there's something to listen for. My aim, to see if it at all changes the listening experience for anyone, thus far no.
Incredible. I believe it!
the mix translation - how can clear and good quality sounds sound so different?
Sorry to be a lil off-topic, but here is my master chain idea. I once had a track where for the buildup the track goes in a lowpassed section, and for some reason it started distorting and i couldnt understand why, on a different song i had the same problem, so i tried a few things and here was my solution. The limiter (like the stock fl one) really likes to distort at low frequencies because a limiter is ment for catching transients to a safe level, there for having fast settings, which is bad for a plain sub or kick that goes over 0dba (lets say, after a multiband comp and some level gaining and or eq even) ofcourse sonible smart limiter and proL on modern mode is good with their secondary release times tuned for subfreq inputs, but that makes another problem - pumping.
So my solution, i use fl maximus before the limiter, with a specific curve to shape the sub AND (this is the important part) limit the sub from going over a specific loudness, so that the limiter doesnt get overwhelmed by sub frequencies. I use maximus with only the bass band compressor on, and some fairly slow enough speeds to not cause much saturation, but also quick enough to react confidently. Hope this helps for alot of people, ummmm... clip those drums, experiment with impulse responses and weird samples, the loudness is in the master if you k ow how to mix in to it, subs dont have to be perfectly mono, most of the world listens on earpods so if it sounds good on "eh" earbuds its perfect already, stop starting and start finishing, vocals ar overrated, there is too much music so dont reach for the billboard "just because" and instead reach for self acceptance and self love, aka make what you want to listent to, not what the world wants, because every single one person has their own taste. I predicted that when apple music wanted everyone to make mixes for dolby atmos, that was entirely only setup for the vision pro.
love these audio experiments, just goes to show you we all hear things differently and that's ok.
In my own experience messing with my master chain, a highpass brickwall does create higher peaks depending on the input more or less. And any quick changes in volume from compression does make saturation and may create sub20hz content, depending on the intensity ofcourse... the problem is in file compression, ofcourse .wav is the pure output, but knowing youtube spotify apple music and all other music distros, atleast some sort of compression foes occur. For example mp3 does a high and low pass and some dither +spectral low level gating depending on quality, and nomather how perfect the master is, the mp3 will always have higher peaks. So, when youre cutting those lows out before the limiter and export a mp3, dont be suprised that you hear clipping, even if the digital level is like -0.1dba cuz the true peak will go even further, and on bass heavy, transient heavy -8lufs loudness war tracks, its better to peak at something lower than -1dba, tho... in that case it kida doesnt matter anymore...
You got me.😵💫
when the video switches to b the most noticeable immediate change is and increase in the volume of bass
I noticed that the end of A sounded different to the start of B AND A, but I didn't make more of it. Clever.
I. AM. SHOOK. 😅😂
Hehe nice video. Phenomenon known as cognitive bias. Dan Worral got an amazing video on the subject. I also use some sort of similar process for : do DAW sound different. Using an audio files and showing two DAW one in dark mode, the other one in light mode, and even I got trick and kind of hear a difference in sound within the exact same files playing.
I heard on the B is like more texture on the low/mid (?) compared to the A. I used cheap headset so idk for sure... 😅
Oh, hello, Anne Kathrin-Dern. Your test with East West Quantum Leap Symphonic Orchestra Gold XP was not enough?
I knew you did that! I didn’t say so because I wanted to be the Null Response set.
Dang, and there I was wondering why does the kick feel inconsistent in "both", guess that explains it XD
Wow. I couldn't hear a difference in last week's video, but I thought it was just my headphones. Something I feel like you should discuss at some point: While I could definitely see that the waveform with the filter was different and a bit "messier", I still am unsure on why it is inherently worse. Yes, it is different from the original, but wouldn't how good it sounds with or without the filter depend on the context it is used in, rather than with the strong filter being always worse?
You are correct. Better or worse are often subjective. We shoudn't be worried about pushing tools to get the results we want. A different waveform shape is definitely not an error or issue most of the time.
I would say B had the high pass filter. I listen the kick the kick, I could hear the sub reduction