I've tried going down that route but most of my music listening either takes place at work (with my PSIs and Headphones) or while living life!@@usefulrandom1855
Demonstrating the frequency ranges was really enlightening! Honestly, I’ve never heard any of those ranges isolated like that. The midrange really does a lot more of the heavy lifting than I realized.
That's why the mids sounded like a telephone. The system was designed to use only the important part of the frequency range needed for voice communications. No need to waste resources on a wide range.
Before upgrading your monitors, always make sure to have at least a basic acoustic treatment setup in place, with all First Reflection points covered and some bass trapping. After you room is sounding good, you can then invest more in speakers. A better sounding room will make your current monitors to sound better as well.
This just made me realize why many seasoned mix engineers mix at a low volume, but occasionally crank up the volume to see how it "Feels". What they're really doing is checking how the midrange sounds when the woofer is displaced; which is a valid thing to do since most people like listening to their favorite music loud.
I mix at a volume where my ears feel relaxed. Not to loud, not too low. And i test my mixes at barely audible levels to confirm that i can still hear all elements in the mix the way i intended. When i crank the volume i do it to find out what may sound harsh or could potentially hurt listening to. If it sounds great at these three volume levels the mix is done. I also do this loud test when mastering.
@@the_oc_brewpub_sound_guy3071 The human ear hears the best balance of frequencies at roughly 78 to 82 dB c-weighted. Our most sensitive range is from 500 Hz to 8 kHz, and we are less sensitive to frequencies above and below that range. Your ears and brain act like an EQ and roll-off the frequencies above and below that range. If you listen at many different loudness levels, your ear and brain are constantly adjusting and compensating. When mastering I usually listen at 68 to 72 dB range, which highlights certain parts of the spectrum, and then at 78-82 dB which allows the ear to detect more highs and lows. Get a cheap dB meter or a phone app and try it. Whether you mix or master, by sticking to just two loudness reference levels, you'll develop your critical hearing faster.
Mixing at a low level also helps take the acoustics of the room out of the equation more. Can be helpful in an untreated space so the signal doesn't interact with the room as much
3 way is a fortuitous optimisation that moves the crossover out of the pinna activation region. Going to 4+ way re-introduces the issue again, with the exception of dealing with large monitors that have both a midwoofer and subwoofer for LF reinforcement
The main drawback of two way systems is intermodulation, which is higher on wideband drivers. Using a dedicated midrange in a critical range between 1k and 4k reduces intermodulation where it matters and that's why this config works. Without the split between bass and midrange, the distortion of the midrange rises every time the speaker is reproducing bass at the same time. The displacement of voice coil from the magnetic center is very bad for linearity of higher frequencies. There are other things too but this is one that gets overlooked.
@@inthemix It's called amplitude modulation. The magnetic flux is the most concentrated in the center of the gap. As the voice coil leaves the neutral position, the force acting on it gets weaker. This happens when a driver is playing it's bottom and top notes at the same time. When the moving coil goes in and out of the center at 30Hz, the upper tone has it's amplitude rise and fall at this frequency. We can't hear 30Hz amplitude modulation as AaAaAa, but we can hear loss of detail as it means the average amplitude of this high pitched sounds is lowered for the duration of low frequency sound, usually beat. It can make the vocals sound muffled. It also causes increase in harmonics, which make vocals sound coarse for some other reasons that are more technical and transducer-specific. There are ways to mitigate that but by far the best method I know is using narow bandwidth drivers in a multi-entry horn, which has all sorts of mechanics that cancel this effect. One way that you can mitigate this effect is highpassing your woofers right below Fs. Other is hornloading the tweeter so that it can be crossed over low. The problem with that is that we can hear crossover phase shift according to Finnish scientists so maybe going too low is not a good idea. This and of course tweeters have their own limits and their own intermodulation problems.
Some well designed, usually expensive woofers, greatly mitigate modulation effect from inductance and BL variation with displacement. It's also nice even for woofers in a three way system to have as symmetrical a motor system as possible. Because it may cross at 600Hz, you will still hear some of the rolled off sound maybe up to 1k, which is all still part of the midrange @@inthemix
I recently got the avantone mix cubes to isolate the mid range and i have to say i am astonished by how easy they make the process of finding out the weak spots in a mix. I really love those speakers and can safely recommend them to anyone who wants to clean up their mixes. However, i found myself overdoing the mid cleanup as consequence of my new setup, making my mix feel too clinical in the end. I am now trying to focus more on reference songs combined with reference speakers and i‘m convinced this will lead to a nice balance between a clean and a natural result. I find it funny how fixing one problem immediately leads to the next one. Guess that‘s a neverending process and part of being a human.
Having multiple sets of speakers for specific tasks is so helpful. Even if people don’t have Avantones, they can use an inexpensive small wired bookshelf speaker, with the bass and highs rolled off on an equalizer, and get much of the same benefit. I like Pioneer’s Andrew Jones-designed bookshelf speakers for this, they have great midrange detail, and cost $150 for a pair rather than $260 each. (Jones is an award winning speaker designer Pioneer hired to make the best possible design for small inexpensive speakers) I have an A/B/C system, with 2 pairs of powered studio monitors, and the Pioneers through a cheap home stereo w graphic EQ, which i’ll test both with lows-highs cut, but also flat, it is super helpful to hear mixes on a less-expensive system, it will often alert you if your sub content is going to pin or pump small consumer speakers.
doing exactly the same. It's always sobering to hear how crappy your "great" tune sounds on the cubes, but after this moment of truth I usually get much better results after making the mix more acceptable on the cubes
What a 3 way also does is massively reduce intermodulation distortion in the mids. Especially since the non-linear distrotions get a lot worse the more the speaker has to move, getting that away from the mids just helps so much. That goes doubly for passive speakers where the crossover puts a huge dent into the damping factor.
a dent in the frequency response more like? i thought damping factor is concerning how fast voltage stops like a sound’s release; it’s a spec on amplifiers. like controlled bass by way of voltage moving /ending movement per speaker transducer
Thank you very much for your explanation. I am a novice home mixer and I read a lot about whether or not to use a subwoofer. Your explanation is the first that justifies the use. I have one question, are subwoofers used in a professional studio?
I have a pair of Kali three-way IN-5's strapped to a Kali WS-6.2 sub woofer, effectively a four-way system. It sounds great and gives me very precise monitoring set-up for my small garden mixing studio. The beauty of the WS-6.2 subwoofer is that it's actually two speakers in one cabinet, so effectively a stereo two-way sub in one box. Amazing! 😎
I have that same sub paired with some cheap adam audio t5v’s… def going to ditch them for 3-ways as I had previously some m audio m3-6’s that were wonderful but the amps stopped working… The adams are fine for movies but honestly not that impressive as all the hype online has made them… however for only $300 they’re not bad…
@@07wrxtr1I felt I was pushing the IN-5'S a bit too hard in my new mixing room so I've upgraded to a pair of Adams A8H's and it's definitely a step up. I'm still using the Kali sub but the Kali has a footswitch option that allows me to A/B with or without the sub. 😎
I got dynaudio Lyd 48s a couple years ago and found that I really don't need to do car tests anymore at all, where I did with my old 2 ways (Yamaha MSP7S). This did a great job of explaining why.
They are also great for listening at home. Accuracy, neutrality and naturalness should be the goals of high fidelity whether in a studio or at home. While Genelecs are not perfect (no speaker is) they do sound and measure quite well and more importantly they are low in audible distortion and stored energy.
A big deal for studio work is the distance. A lot of home studios are quite near field'ish. I got some 8331's because I'm working at a pretty close distance, and their concentric design means I can have a three way setup without concerns. In a home listening setup, it wouldn't be a concern from across the room, or of course if you are blessed with the space to be able to do mid-field monitoring.
Lots of good points but also a few too many generalisations. I’ve designed a few two way designs specifically for mixing and mastering duties and they have been accurate and just as insightful as any three way. I picked high efficiency low distortion designs using steep crossovers and coaxial drivers to ensure both time and phase alignment. Even vintage hpd315’s can be superbly revealing if used with a decent crossover and cabinet design. Crossed over at a khz means most of the sensitive 700hz to 5khz is handled by the horn loaded hf unit but the real issue with crossover designs is NOT that they somehow leave a gap or screw up detail at crossover. The issue is this: many audiophiles do understand the importance of time and phase alignment but fail to comprehend polar response as do many studio mixing engineers I’ve worked with. It’s not enough to get alignment right if you screw up polar response as this affects both directivity and stability of image and even phase response. This is where a 3 way can avoid the issue at the critical mid point BUT a well designed 2 way can do as good a job IF polar directivity is matched for the crossover point AND phase/time alignment is good plus sensitivities are matched. Whilst its true subs hugely improve system efficiency and can reduce distortion of two and 3 way systems, there’s no reason why with proper driver selection and cab design you cannot match or better a satellite system with sub. Subs have their own issues with room and driver integration. A good full range three way, using a good room correction like a Trinov system is the ideal but I wouldn’t rule out a two way either. There are compromises with all speaker systems which is why it is wrong really to generalise.
love the breakdown on what the different parts of the speakers are for. its like i thought i know and u just gave me a complete tour through the rabbit hole basically
I upgraded to the rokit g10's that have a 4 way system.. coming from Yamaha's hs8s, a classic dual driver setup... and man things became so clear! They aren't as harsh in the treble so perceived details were minimised theoretically but the separation added a clean and wide sound stage that made picking out issues so much easier. As a reference, I would play some mixing games on the soundgym website and immediately after getting my 4-way speakers my scores went way up in the eq and imaging department.
By no means I am an audiophile, I just enjoy listening to my favorite music and sometimes on a quality setup. However, your explanation was so good with no BS and descending tone that I instantly subscribed. Wish I could see more content from people like you👍
Heres the thing. Everyone says "i dont care about the speakers, i just want to connect to the music", but with genuine high quality speakers you connect with the music WAAAY MORE... Simple explanation? You can actually hear what note is being played. Literally that reason alone
SO glad to found this video, as electronic eng. i always told that 3 way's had to be better for mixing so i made my own spikers and use them, but that irritates some people who claim that 2 way or even 1 way is perfect.
I always recommend having an A/B setup if it’s affordable. Even with inexpensive speakers, having 2 sets of speakers to switch between can be extremely helpful for triangulating. (Obviously you have to learn well any speakers you use, especially if they’re inexpensive.)
I used to do this too, although sometimes it was A/B/C when testing speakers for a few companies. It was enlightening to hear how differently the mix was portrayed on each system.
This was the first time I hear somebody explain the benefits of good monitors and where to look for. I finally understand! Thanks a million!!! (I will buy a copy of the Reviver this weekend to thank you!)
I remember reading that the more holes in the speaker, the more source points for audio waves and thus the more waves interferences. So I always thought a 2-way speaker was in fact by default less worse than a 3-way speaker. The fact that engineers can design around that is amazing to me.
Interference is just a small part of it. Check out Klippel's research. It's a library full of knowledge on speaker distortion. It just doesn't end. IF you care about a point source that much, you can always get a horn.
Man I've started producing from scratch 6 years ago and Michael has been my go to person since then and I've grown so much and know alot because of Michael.. thank you bro. Never let me down since day one. Your content is worth more than gold in music production.
A three way system principally offers lower distortion from all drivers, particularly intermodulation distortion. Intermodulation distortion (modulation of one tone by another tone) is a huge part of why speakers sound like speakers and not real sound. When I have been able to work on three way speaker designs, they always sound clearer, more natural, and more transparent to the source. This is because when a woofer gets a strong signal and its cone experiences significant movement, that movement also modulates the magnetic field responsible for producing the midrange sound. You can hear this in action if you play a 20 Hz tone (at the threshold of audibility) while also playing a tone at 1kHz; the 1kHz tone will sound like it is warbling, and even very expensive mid-woofer speakers will do this. But this is also happening at other frequencies that are closer together, and it produces a 'jumbled' sound. When you can free a speaker from the job of producing lower frequencies that create a lot of this intermodulation distortion, it produces clearer sound. So you get a more transparent lens into the original performance. The problem with speakers that have many passbands is phase. The crossover filters produce phase rotation between the passbands of the crossover that has to be managed, because it is a delay in the sound, expressed as 'degrees' of a wavelength where one wavelength is 360 degrees. Crossover points work best when they are placed where the phase of the sound coming from a speaker overlaps with the phase of the same frequency coming from another speaker in the adjacent passband. Also, if passbands overlap with non-adjacent passbands and produce significant output, they produce strong off-axis directivity lobes because one speaker is interfering with a speaker that is farther away on the baffle. This is why concentric speakers are prized - because the system behaves with less phase alignment issues at off-axis angles, and produces a pattern of directivity that is always symmetrical.
Great video!!! I just upgraded from a 2 way pair + 10” Sub to a 3 way Focal pair. I got rid of the sub, and also had to add more an acoustic treatment for my room, all the investment was worthy.
Well, my decission at this point was really easy: Years ago at the music trade fair in Germany I saw the most showmen with that yellow monitors on the dishes. So when starting do DJ'ing two years ago, I decided to buy the KRK RoKit Classic 5. The selling points for me were: Literally the word "classic" in the product's name, showing that this is something traditional industry-strandard over the years and the good product's description at Thomann... At this time, I had less knowledge about all that things, but not a bad decission at all and I love them. Usually, I don't like to bring it to gigs but for small birthday partys, small pubs they also fit well, even though they are near field monitors, but they have a lot of sound output and can be very loud which is impressive for that small / mid-sized speakers 🙂
This was all very informative. But, it would be nice to know what is the reason that dedicated midrange drivers give better results. There is a lot of information out there but no definite answer: Things to consider are: 1. Human hearing is especially sensitive in 700 - 3000 Hz range, give or take a few Hertzes. Human voice is in this range, so this can be evolutionary trait. 2 -3 Khz range is important for directional perception. 2. Midrange driver does not have to reproduce low frequencies. Every octave lower we go, the driver excursion increases 4 fold. Lower excursion means lower distortion. And also, limited range limits the opportunity for intermodular distortion. 3. Driver diferences. In a two way LS drivers crossover in the sensitive area. If they are crossed higher than woofer might run into cone breakup, driver center to center spacing is to big, woofer may have excesive directivity and so on. 4. Are the crossovers to blame? Two drivers by themselves are not time aligned. In a vertical flush baffle their acoustical centers are not aligned. The drivers themselves have different phases at Xover frequency. The high pass and low pass filters have different phases. Could phase correct and time aligned digital filters solve this problem. 5. Midrange driver, be it cone or dome is smaller than a woofer. That means it is omnidirectional radiator and matches well with tweeter directivity wise. Woofer might not. In essence, what is te root of all evil?.
I would be so grateful if you could answer. 1) What speakers is it that you use here? 2) What speakers would you recommend for an intermediate mixing engineer looking to upgrade? I currently have JBL LSR 305's (the old discontinued ones) which were like $300 for the pair. I have good room treatment. I feel I've outgrown the speakers now. In my opinion they seem to smear the mids in a way that still makes it hard for me to get everything to translate (although it got better with the treatment). I could see going up to roughly ~$800. I want something that is like what you describe in the video. Something that represents the mids in a critical listening way and helps me hear all the problems. I just want my mix moves to be accurate when translating to other devices. Any help appreciated, thank you so much.
I lived with a Hi-Fi reviewer for many years. & yes the more crossovers you have the more points where you are not getting a clear response as the cost of less clarity. I use the test my mixes on a 70k system. It was a huge eye opener. I would take a 3 way over 2 way any day!! I use to love building a track on the big system. The sound design choices I would have made changed. The effect racks changed.. Now I have a tiny room & some old but I still love Dynaudio BM5a MK1s More than plenty for my current needs. But we’ll treated room that is harmonically corrected is amazing!
I am just researching the topic and funny enough, right after your video I stuck upon this article on amcoustics which explains Double Bass Array and why it works: It's quite easy to absorb such a flat wave front with the exact same loudspeaker array on the other end of the room. Remember that swing at the beginning of this article? How do you stop it? Exactly, when the kid is on your side you try to catch it, absorbing the kinetic and potential energy in the system. The same happens when some speaker cones move away from the wave front the moment the wave front arrives. Normally the wavefront would hit the wall, building up pressure and because of the fact that air wants to be homogenously distributed it would move back to release that pressure at the wall. But as the membrans of the second speaker array move away at that very moment the pressure can not be build up and the wave is not reflected. It's kind of sucked up by the speakers.
Sorry but just stating that 3 way monitors are more revealing is the height of naivete - there is just way way more than that - I'd take bigger 2 ways any time over any 3 ways - especially with horn tweets and properly controlled directivity - these problems are easier to address with less drivers. If anything mangled directivity makes localization bad and impossible to fix, whilst response is very easy to correct, besides modern active speakers with DSP and active amplification manage this problem very well. You're bang on about subs - multisub setups work really well, and frankly the only way to fix the bottom - multiple modes, nulls, peaks can't be eqed out.
Hi Michael, another great, informative video. By the way, I have owned your plugin "Reviver" for over a year and absolutely love it. It's one of my go to plugins for my Mix Buss 👍
Excellent vid, thanks. I have the Focal Trio6 Speakers and yes, I have two subs!! That is so right on, best and most accurate bass for sure. Also, a key thing when I had my speakers installed, was that the acousticians were able to set the distance and timing when things hit the listening spot, using a DSP (after physical setting). This is super important if the subs are not the exact distance as the mains, or rear speakers are not exact distance as fronts. Interestingly, these Focals were not perfect; the tweeter was hitting early. However, it was so close they actually just tilted the speakers back a very tiny bit until the reading was good. Also, I wondered your opinion on the design of having a 5" woofer as the mid? The main woofer is 8". They also have a "Focus" mode to switch to just the 5" and tweeter. It's a major brain squeeze when you do it though, especially for bass and kicks!
thanks, very useful video indeed, I'm considering a 3 way system for that exact reason, I need something unforgiving. I bought some genelecs 8030 six month ago along with the 7050 sub and I really like them a lot. I get a lot of details, the sound stage is vast, placement and distances for each instrument are very focused, very enjoyable. But I mean everything will sound nice out of these. Even a harsh mix, through emulated NS10s will sound sort of "ok" out of the 8030. Considering A8H, KH310 or SC3070 at the moment (for when I'll have the money ahahah)
i think that 3 way monitors have more phase issues and the sweet spot is harder to find, and the best alternative that i've seen was the kali in's series, because they have the mid speaker and tweeter together making a semi coaxial speaker (plus the woofer). another thing i suggest is to make the speakers sound better is to use calibration software as sonarworks or rew and at the end of the mix when you're translating it i would use a very bad speaker to listen if there's some issues (like the ns10s or the tiny jbl portable speakers). btw really nice video
I add subwoofers to 3 way speakers to fix the lacking low end (most 3-way speakers their woofers are compromised to only handle mid-low well), and you basically get a 4-way solution. 😅
yeah.. the kali in5s are coaxial three way but have great bass capability. but yes subs are great to free up the woofers to not need to reproduce the lows as much, a major reason to use them. cheerz
Interesting and makes sense. I use ADS SAT7 3-ways. They were not so forgiving at first, but using REW and Audyseey Multi-EQ to flatten them out a little it’s hard to find something that sounds bad.
As a consumer, I added a 6.5" full-range to my JBL 4320 simply because the original design makes the horn tweeter irreparably louder than the 15" woofer, rendering the sound unbearably shouty and inaccurate, not to mention wasting the potential of the impeccable 15". To make the whole thing work, I switched to using my Pioneer D-23 electronic crossover, driving 3 separate amplifiers to feed the woofers, the squawkers that used to be a full-range, and the horn tweeters, crossed over at 100Hz, and 2k, Now I can distinguish messy commercial recordings due to the balanced 3-way spectrum 30Hz-15KH, just by paying attention to the squawkers. You are well-done!
Great demo between the different speaker types and the differences between 2-way and 3-way speakers. In some respects though, a single full range speaker without a whizzer cone is best since it's not likely to have any lobing, although it will have so many frequency response and other limitations that they're never actually used in hi-fi speakers.
Truths from a perspective of a recording engineer. Well done. Most speaker designers will choose the best mid-range with the flattest and widest frequency response then design the cross over points to suit it. The tweeters, mid bass / woofers do not matter as much... This is the evolution of the Linkwitz DIY speakers from Orion to the LX521.
Directivity is also a big reason why, with drivers starting to beam as they're pushed into higher frequencies. An 6" has really dropped off axis by 1500hz
1500hz is a wavelenght of 9" it doesnt start to beam before you have driver sizes above that, also driver size is including frame, not just cone. for example here is a 12" with a 1250hz crossover: 4.bp.blogspot.com/-bqv1bgFvQPE/TXDRNSrwrUI/AAAAAAAAF5Y/eVnCEZW3sQU/s1600/s15dsp%2Bnormalised.png
I use vintage giant 3 ways monitors with dome midranges from 1970s. Since I make future bounce that use a lot of the midrange spectrum is very useful. I have 2 way i use with my 3 ways at the same time. when you did the comparison at 2:30 my two ways couldn't event detail the mids. while my old 3 ways were super accurate. But I agree, they show way too much issues. which is way use them with a stacked amp system to compare. I also use dual subwoofer! Thank you!
I took a little different approach to connect my subwoofer - yes, I use only one, but the same would apply to a pair. My passive monitor controller has two separate stereo outputs that can be turned on and off. On the first I connected my 2-way monitors, on the second my subwoofer. So I can easily turn on/off both and listen how a mix translates to both of them. Of course on both the monitors and subwoofer the volume knobs are adjusted so I rarely touch them. Also the crossover frequency on the subwoofer is adjusted to match the monitors, even if they aren't connected there. And on both monitors the highpass filters are turned on.
The main thing most people get wrong is having enough room treatment . when the room is treated and the speakers are angled and at the right height they should sound like a giant detailed set of headphones - even the cheaper two way ones . For two way monitors its best to VERY well treat the room , and add a sub that takes over from 90 hz down ( and hi passes the two ways ) - then the two ways will provide cleaner midrange and transients . and the low end will fill out nicely . if you treat the room right you will be left with a few humps below 500 hz that you can eq out with a graphic eq before the monitors . also make sure you damp your desk or angle it steep , or you will get humps and dips around 600 - 800 hz and comb filtering up to 20 khz if you have space then making your room one end live one end dead ( where you speakers are ) is a good method . the dead end should be thick with treatment
That was invaluable information. So what you're essentially saying is that two way systems can obscure issues that will then jump out and bite you when you try the mix on a different system, but those issues will be much clear with a three way system? How about those cube style speakers the some people use? They have a single "full range" driver, but really they are mid range focused and don't produce as much top & bottom.
It always depends on the design of the speaker; how good is FR, DI and distortion. There can be magnificent 2ways and atrocious 3ways. 3ways with the same sound quality level as 2ways are more expensive due bigger cabinet, more drivers and more amplifiers (XO parts), but will have probably wider frequency range and SPL capability.
I have my system set up with my main 3 ways on A, and a set of 2 way's on B. Can play either set and yeah I notice on some music the two- way sound more pleasing and other music my main speakers. I'd never thought about it from your perspective but geez.. it now makes more sense to me. I just thought it was the particular drivers and not the design limitations.. but it appears both !
I agree with you, though I have no experiences with studio monitors. For mixing and post processing, I use the Sony MDR-7506 Studio Headphones, which have a rather dominant enhancement of the mids instead of a nice flat frequency response. In that range, the most impurities occur, let alone the battle between bass and kick drum. So, for me that is perfect.
I use to daisy chain Bluetooth speaker through the 3.5 mm jack specifically you can control the volume on each one, and once you balance everything, the image of the sound sticks out and you can have this amazing experience.
Very good woofers (eg. Purifi) reduce intermodulation distortion and other effects in the midrange, meaning you can get a 2-way that is just as good as many three ways, assuming they are all competently designed. Directivity will still narrow in the mids, so waveguided tweeters are good. That said, many three ways still use some sorts of waveguides to match directivity of the mids and tweeters, as seen in the monitors shown in this video.
Your video makes so much sense! As an engineer (though not the electrical sort) I’ve puzzled for years at why nearly all speakers crossover in the most important frequency band for ordinary music. It has always seemed much more logical to my technical mind for the design to concentrate instead on a driver for those all-important mid bands and to treat the bass and trebles as add-ons, so to speak. I like the idea of the Wharfedale speakers like Evo 4.2 or 4.3 for this reason. Actually my ears aren’t all that sensitive and I’m easily pleased with 2 way speakers. But your video seems to suggest that having a very accurate and revealing mid-range might be self-defeating in the real world of recordings. Am I missing something here? Is a three way set a ‘good’ or a ‘bad’ thing?
It's not necessarily good or bad, it's just that when speakers start getting quite "revealing" they can also reveal poor audio production, so good records sound even better but poorly made music sounds apparently poor.
I think I understand that in a commercial sense - you don't want to put off the punters by too much detail. But when we consider ourselves hifi or hires enthusiasts, shouldn't we be seeking this very thing? After all, that's surely what hifi means?@@abhi211-T
I'd be interested to hear how you would set up a stereo subwoofer system for room listening. And would that setup work for multiple listeners, or just the center.
Getting my first pair of monitors very soon. Focal Alpha Twin Evos, which are technically 2.5 way. But they have dedicated low and mid woofers and a tweeter (of course!).
i do all of my mixing through headphones. although i know this probably isn't the best way, i don't believe my current equipment would lend itself to mixing any other way. i have thought about what sort of monitors i might get if i were to go that route. i would most likely go with a 3 way system after watching this. although i think it might be interesting to watch you do an in-depth on those monitors, i think you made it clear that it's a perfectly simple by-product of the crossover technology that is in play here. that's also what i appreciate most about your channel. you're not trying to sell us on gimmicks or tricks. you explain how things work and include when/why they would be desirable. i for one really appreciate it.
get yourself a pair of KRK Rokit 6s they are amazing starter speakers and last forever . They also lean to the warmer presentation so you can listen to all kinds of music and enjoy listening on them unlike sterile Genelecs and other monitors.
You didn't talk at all about the imperfections of crossovers which was actually your main point- keep this out of the critical midrange. However in response to that more of them is worse in that you get more artifacts from them in more parts of the frequency spectrum. But you did cover the response to that, which is that drivers covering a wide range of frequencies well is impossible and so fewer equals more driver distortion.
Seems sensible. I was taught how to set up my guitar tone years and years ago by not scooping the mids. Because as you say the guitar resides mostly in the mids and a guitar amp mostly only really reproduces mids well. Of course you can engineer even lower-fi guitar tones by scooping the mid range which can be agreeable in some situations.
Oh gosh yes! Please do make a video on the PSI speakers, there's very little critical reviews on them, apart from everyone saying "they're the best" and then not qualifying the statement. Also why didn't you opt for the burgundy finish?
Firstly, while I like burgundy I just wasn’t feeling that they would be a good option for my space! While I tend to agree that PSI are “the best” the truth is that there are a few incredible systems out there utilising digital tech to achieve the best possible results. PSIs are fully analogue and really are the best in their class. Other options like the kii three take a much more digital approach but do so in a fantastic way and sound stunning. The danger zone is that mid ground where you can spend £2-5k on speakers that try to do a lot of things and don’t really get it all right all the time.
Hi thank you so much for the really great and valuable video Speaking of 3 ways studio monitors i see that some come with a dome mid while other come with a cone mid Clearly a cone mid allows for a lower cross point with the woofer Some mids can work great from 200-300Hz up I see that you preferred a dome mid ? may i ask you why ? thank you vey much again Kind regards gino
3 way is applicable for most great use cases. Eg 1 Car audio: sub woofer + amp + dedicated amp and drivers for mids + head unit for high end are much better than without the mids. Night and day. Eg 2 3-Way speakers from the 80s much better than 2-Way from the 70s. 2 way is great when pushing out high volume low quality stereo or mono reproductions since it masks defincies in the mix. The main purpose of mids is to flatten the frequency response in the middle of the spectrum where vocals, keys and snares live.
That was some good audio! And great sounding midrange coming out of my 2-Way Micca RB42s. 👏 I only heard this good sound of voice from one other YT channel and he happened to be a pro audio mixer too! 😅 Talked about Dolby Atmos mixes… Sadly my audiophile interests are in channels talking about speakers, some headphones/IEMs, DACs, amps and vinyl. And none of them do anything great with their audio recordings. 🤔🤷♂️ you might just get a few quality subscribers if you consider reviewing/educating this niche. As we do love great audio in a video and there’s not many YT channels known for that! 😉
What about MixCubes or similar single speaker solutions? To really focus on the important stuff while mixing and switch to 2/3-way for fine-tuning. I know, that some people prefer that way.
Every dynamic driver has mass and "compliance" and thus comprises a mechanical bandpass filter. Dividing the audio spectrum into more and narrower bands permits each driver to be better optimized for its target band. The downside is that adding more bands complicates crossover design exponentially, which is why I take the lazy way out by using DSP multiamping, giving me tons of control points to wring the best possible performance from each driver and best transition from one band to the next.
The A25m you have are slightly larger and feature a difference style of midrange driver but I think both units sound similar. You made a very good choice with them!
This was extremely well explained, Michael; thank you! Wondering if I could get your opinion. I’m saving to buy my first pair of monitors. Right now, I compose and mix exclusively on Neuman NDH30 headphones. Do you think it would be better to save for a pair of “forever speakers” like your PSI A23-Ms, or should I grab a decent pair of less expensive monitors, like Kali IN-8 V2s, just to get used to working on speakers? Also, would love to see a dedicated review of your monitoring set up👍 Many thanks for all your content; I’ve learned a lot.
Those are great headphones. I would recommend getting a relatively affordable pair first to see if working on monitors suits you. They will offer a valuable perspective even if they are not perfect right away. I used 7 or 8 different pairs over the year before settling on these PSIs and I’m glad I spent the time learning what suited me!
Can relate to those mistakes 100% . Yesterday I opened a project I mixed before 6 years. I just could not believe how much plugins I placed on each track....😂😂😂 I mixed that song again in 2 hours with 70% less plugins and it sounded 70% better. 😂😂
I'm currently trying out a 3-way and a 2-way alongside each other and the 2-way is holding up great through the mids and up through its crossover. I also tried playing a low frequency tone with tones up to the crossover and they didn't interact audibly, as might be expected. I would guess there are other ways of mitigating the problems of a 2-way design without needing a dedicated mid range driver? Main things in favour of the 3 way at the moment are an extra few Hz of bass extension (should be irrelevant once the sub is integrated) and the brilliant AMT.
There is a thing called intermodulation distortion. When you have 3 drivers each doing their on thing you get less intermodulation distortion this giving you a much more correct frequency response. I remember a teacher showing ups an example of a crossover unit. The sound difference between a 2 way and a 3 way line is HUGE. I understood at that point why concerts sound like concerts.
Thank you for explaining this in great detail, i have various speakers to test, hi fi , DJ monitors T-10 laptop computer with tweeters and others have them too & Karoke system, so what you’re saying is the bass should sound good 50hz - 60 - 100 hz , I do have portable speaker system with two sub bass’s, got me thinking test my track on this two, thanks you for your help
Very interesting, I purchased Adam A7X a while ago and added sonarworks and have treatment. Which interestingly was under your recommendation. I never regret it. Is it safe to say that they work well for mixing purposes? I mostly do production and tend to mix afterwards for my own but want to share my music in a near distant future.
Oh yes, a pair of A7X with some treatment and correction are going to be excellent for mixing. You might appreciate a subwoofer depending on the genre but the A7X are more than capable speakers. I used them right up until I bought the PSIs because it felt wrong to keep the Adams to myself when I wasn’t using them!
Hello. You say that a 2-way speaker + 2 subwoofers is better than a 3-way speaker. Isn't it the same, just that the subwoofers are not part of the same boxes? Or what is the beneficial difference? On the contrary, I would say that a more natural sound must sound from 3 bands because all the speakers are tuned to each other, while the subwoofers are not tuned due to the 2 bands, unless I buy a set.
Is adding a sub pretty much the same as having 3 way monitors or not because the bass drivers in your speakers weren't designed for mids and maybe the crossover point is much lower?
The way you just said that audiophiles don't know a thing about audio at the beginning was amazing. LOL.
I would never say such a thing ;)
@@inthemix When you are just listening to music what do you use? Do you just listen on monitors or do you have a set for just listening?
Typically I use a portable bluetooth speaker from marshall, bose qc35ii, earbuds or my car speaker system@@usefulrandom1855
@@inthemix Oh that's pretty surprising haha I assumed you would at least have a proper stereo setup with amp etc!
I've tried going down that route but most of my music listening either takes place at work (with my PSIs and Headphones) or while living life!@@usefulrandom1855
Demonstrating the frequency ranges was really enlightening! Honestly, I’ve never heard any of those ranges isolated like that. The midrange really does a lot more of the heavy lifting than I realized.
That's why the mids sounded like a telephone. The system was designed to use only the important part of the frequency range needed for voice communications. No need to waste resources on a wide range.
Before upgrading your monitors, always make sure to have at least a basic acoustic treatment setup in place, with all First Reflection points covered and some bass trapping. After you room is sounding good, you can then invest more in speakers. A better sounding room will make your current monitors to sound better as well.
And lacking these pecuniary resources, check out today's wonderful open-back headphones.
This just made me realize why many seasoned mix engineers mix at a low volume, but occasionally crank up the volume to see how it "Feels".
What they're really doing is checking how the midrange sounds when the woofer is displaced; which is a valid thing to do since most people like listening to their favorite music loud.
I think you’re right.
I mix at a volume where my ears feel relaxed. Not to loud, not too low. And i test my mixes at barely audible levels to confirm that i can still hear all elements in the mix the way i intended. When i crank the volume i do it to find out what may sound harsh or could potentially hurt listening to. If it sounds great at these three volume levels the mix is done. I also do this loud test when mastering.
@@DJayFreeDoo I like your method quite a bit. I've used similar methods myself.
@@the_oc_brewpub_sound_guy3071 The human ear hears the best balance of frequencies at roughly 78 to 82 dB c-weighted. Our most sensitive range is from 500 Hz to 8 kHz, and we are less sensitive to frequencies above and below that range. Your ears and brain act like an EQ and roll-off the frequencies above and below that range. If you listen at many different loudness levels, your ear and brain are constantly adjusting and compensating. When mastering I usually listen at 68 to 72 dB range, which highlights certain parts of the spectrum, and then at 78-82 dB which allows the ear to detect more highs and lows. Get a cheap dB meter or a phone app and try it. Whether you mix or master, by sticking to just two loudness reference levels, you'll develop your critical hearing faster.
Mixing at a low level also helps take the acoustics of the room out of the equation more. Can be helpful in an untreated space so the signal doesn't interact with the room as much
3 way is a fortuitous optimisation that moves the crossover out of the pinna activation region. Going to 4+ way re-introduces the issue again, with the exception of dealing with large monitors that have both a midwoofer and subwoofer for LF reinforcement
That is a really good way of describing it.
Yes, with some rather expensive exceptions, Genelec 8381 and Barefoot Main Stack have this solved, are 4.5 and 5 way.
The main drawback of two way systems is intermodulation, which is higher on wideband drivers. Using a dedicated midrange in a critical range between 1k and 4k reduces intermodulation where it matters and that's why this config works. Without the split between bass and midrange, the distortion of the midrange rises every time the speaker is reproducing bass at the same time. The displacement of voice coil from the magnetic center is very bad for linearity of higher frequencies. There are other things too but this is one that gets overlooked.
You’ve hit most of it on the head there I think. It’s that extra displacement of the woofer that throws off the mids (literally).
@@inthemix It's called amplitude modulation. The magnetic flux is the most concentrated in the center of the gap. As the voice coil leaves the neutral position, the force acting on it gets weaker. This happens when a driver is playing it's bottom and top notes at the same time. When the moving coil goes in and out of the center at 30Hz, the upper tone has it's amplitude rise and fall at this frequency. We can't hear 30Hz amplitude modulation as AaAaAa, but we can hear loss of detail as it means the average amplitude of this high pitched sounds is lowered for the duration of low frequency sound, usually beat. It can make the vocals sound muffled. It also causes increase in harmonics, which make vocals sound coarse for some other reasons that are more technical and transducer-specific.
There are ways to mitigate that but by far the best method I know is using narow bandwidth drivers in a multi-entry horn, which has all sorts of mechanics that cancel this effect.
One way that you can mitigate this effect is highpassing your woofers right below Fs. Other is hornloading the tweeter so that it can be crossed over low. The problem with that is that we can hear crossover phase shift according to Finnish scientists so maybe going too low is not a good idea. This and of course tweeters have their own limits and their own intermodulation problems.
@@rhalfik my dude you are a nerd. I mean that in the best way.
According to one audio company, phase shift is less audible below 1600Hz. So they cross over below that.@@rhalfik
Some well designed, usually expensive woofers, greatly mitigate modulation effect from inductance and BL variation with displacement. It's also nice even for woofers in a three way system to have as symmetrical a motor system as possible. Because it may cross at 600Hz, you will still hear some of the rolled off sound maybe up to 1k, which is all still part of the midrange @@inthemix
I recently got the avantone mix cubes to isolate the mid range and i have to say i am astonished by how easy they make the process of finding out the weak spots in a mix. I really love those speakers and can safely recommend them to anyone who wants to clean up their mixes. However, i found myself overdoing the mid cleanup as consequence of my new setup, making my mix feel too clinical in the end. I am now trying to focus more on reference songs combined with reference speakers and i‘m convinced this will lead to a nice balance between a clean and a natural result.
I find it funny how fixing one problem immediately leads to the next one. Guess that‘s a neverending process and part of being a human.
I bought a pair of the Auratone cubes this year and they are SO great for hearing what is 'sticking out' in the mix.
@@astrofreq absolutely!
Having multiple sets of speakers for specific tasks is so helpful. Even if people don’t have Avantones, they can use an inexpensive small wired bookshelf speaker, with the bass and highs rolled off on an equalizer, and get much of the same benefit. I like Pioneer’s Andrew Jones-designed bookshelf speakers for this, they have great midrange detail, and cost $150 for a pair rather than $260 each. (Jones is an award winning speaker designer Pioneer hired to make the best possible design for small inexpensive speakers) I have an A/B/C system, with 2 pairs of powered studio monitors, and the Pioneers through a cheap home stereo w graphic EQ, which i’ll test both with lows-highs cut, but also flat, it is super helpful to hear mixes on a less-expensive system, it will often alert you if your sub content is going to pin or pump small consumer speakers.
doing exactly the same. It's always sobering to hear how crappy your "great" tune sounds on the cubes, but after this moment of truth I usually get much better results after making the mix more acceptable on the cubes
@@sub-jec-tivthank I for this info bro 👊🏼🔊
What a 3 way also does is massively reduce intermodulation distortion in the mids. Especially since the non-linear distrotions get a lot worse the more the speaker has to move, getting that away from the mids just helps so much. That goes doubly for passive speakers where the crossover puts a huge dent into the damping factor.
a dent in the frequency response more like? i thought damping factor is concerning how fast voltage stops like a sound’s release; it’s a spec on amplifiers. like controlled bass by way of voltage moving /ending movement per speaker transducer
Thanks for keeping us informed Michael. Appreciate the video!
Thank you very much for your explanation. I am a novice home mixer and I read a lot about whether or not to use a subwoofer. Your explanation is the first that justifies the use. I have one question, are subwoofers used in a professional studio?
I want you to know, and I mean this sincerely; as far as music production tutorials go, you are the GOAT.
I have a pair of Kali three-way IN-5's strapped to a Kali WS-6.2 sub woofer, effectively a four-way system. It sounds great and gives me very precise monitoring set-up for my small garden mixing studio. The beauty of the WS-6.2 subwoofer is that it's actually two speakers in one cabinet, so effectively a stereo two-way sub in one box. Amazing! 😎
I have that same sub paired with some cheap adam audio t5v’s… def going to ditch them for 3-ways as I had previously some m audio m3-6’s that were wonderful but the amps stopped working…
The adams are fine for movies but honestly not that impressive as all the hype online has made them… however for only $300 they’re not bad…
@@07wrxtr1I felt I was pushing the IN-5'S a bit too hard in my new mixing room so I've upgraded to a pair of Adams A8H's and it's definitely a step up. I'm still using the Kali sub but the Kali has a footswitch option that allows me to A/B with or without the sub. 😎
Please make the video about 2 subwoofers. Very interested!
I got dynaudio Lyd 48s a couple years ago and found that I really don't need to do car tests anymore at all, where I did with my old 2 ways (Yamaha MSP7S). This did a great job of explaining why.
Back in the 2000's I got my Genelecs 1030A, added a sub, and this is a killer neutral mixing and mastering setup. Plus room treatment, obviously.
That is a really nice setup there.
Genelec does elite work
They are also great for listening at home. Accuracy, neutrality and naturalness should be the goals of high fidelity whether in a studio or at home. While Genelecs are not perfect (no speaker is) they do sound and measure quite well and more importantly they are low in audible distortion and stored energy.
$$$$
A big deal for studio work is the distance. A lot of home studios are quite near field'ish. I got some 8331's because I'm working at a pretty close distance, and their concentric design means I can have a three way setup without concerns. In a home listening setup, it wouldn't be a concern from across the room, or of course if you are blessed with the space to be able to do mid-field monitoring.
Lots of good points but also a few too many generalisations. I’ve designed a few two way designs specifically for mixing and mastering duties and they have been accurate and just as insightful as any three way. I picked high efficiency low distortion designs using steep crossovers and coaxial drivers to ensure both time and phase alignment. Even vintage hpd315’s can be superbly revealing if used with a decent crossover and cabinet design. Crossed over at a khz means most of the sensitive 700hz to 5khz is handled by the horn loaded hf unit but the real issue with crossover designs is NOT that they somehow leave a gap or screw up detail at crossover.
The issue is this: many audiophiles do understand the importance of time and phase alignment but fail to comprehend polar response as do many studio mixing engineers I’ve worked with.
It’s not enough to get alignment right if you screw up polar response as this affects both directivity and stability of image and even phase response. This is where a 3 way can avoid the issue at the critical mid point BUT a well designed 2 way can do as good a job IF polar directivity is matched for the crossover point AND phase/time alignment is good plus sensitivities are matched.
Whilst its true subs hugely improve system efficiency and can reduce distortion of two and 3 way systems, there’s no reason why with proper driver selection and cab design you cannot match or better a satellite system with sub. Subs have their own issues with room and driver integration.
A good full range three way, using a good room correction like a Trinov system is the ideal but I wouldn’t rule out a two way either. There are compromises with all speaker systems which is why it is wrong really to generalise.
Not possible. 3 way will own ur diy
Correct, but too many in here are not educated in acoustics, electronics or mechanical systems.
love the breakdown on what the different parts of the speakers are for. its like i thought i know and u just gave me a complete tour through the rabbit hole basically
I upgraded to the rokit g10's that have a 4 way system.. coming from Yamaha's hs8s, a classic dual driver setup... and man things became so clear! They aren't as harsh in the treble so perceived details were minimised theoretically but the separation added a clean and wide sound stage that made picking out issues so much easier. As a reference, I would play some mixing games on the soundgym website and immediately after getting my 4-way speakers my scores went way up in the eq and imaging department.
interesting!
lol, its Active 3-Way Studio Monitor, not 4-way.
By no means I am an audiophile, I just enjoy listening to my favorite music and sometimes on a quality setup. However, your explanation was so good with no BS and descending tone that I instantly subscribed. Wish I could see more content from people like you👍
Heres the thing. Everyone says "i dont care about the speakers, i just want to connect to the music", but with genuine high quality speakers you connect with the music WAAAY MORE... Simple explanation? You can actually hear what note is being played. Literally that reason alone
@@niccster1061you can hear what note is being played on any speaker as long as it’s on. What you said at the end makes no sense.
SO glad to found this video, as electronic eng. i always told that 3 way's had to be better for mixing so i made my own spikers and use them, but that irritates some people who claim that 2 way or even 1 way is perfect.
I always recommend having an A/B setup if it’s affordable. Even with inexpensive speakers, having 2 sets of speakers to switch between can be extremely helpful for triangulating. (Obviously you have to learn well any speakers you use, especially if they’re inexpensive.)
I used to do this too, although sometimes it was A/B/C when testing speakers for a few companies. It was enlightening to hear how differently the mix was portrayed on each system.
using a/b class is too audiophile
This was the first time I hear somebody explain the benefits of good monitors and where to look for. I finally understand!
Thanks a million!!! (I will buy a copy of the Reviver this weekend to thank you!)
I remember reading that the more holes in the speaker, the more source points for audio waves and thus the more waves interferences. So I always thought a 2-way speaker was in fact by default less worse than a 3-way speaker. The fact that engineers can design around that is amazing to me.
Interference is just a small part of it. Check out Klippel's research. It's a library full of knowledge on speaker distortion. It just doesn't end. IF you care about a point source that much, you can always get a horn.
Coaxial three way is cool like Genelec speakers
@@Alepap. True, very precise, I do most of my work on those.
But I'll keep big classic 3 ways in the living room, cause they're more fun.
Man I've started producing from scratch 6 years ago and Michael has been my go to person since then and I've grown so much and know alot because of Michael.. thank you bro. Never let me down since day one. Your content is worth more than gold in music production.
A three way system principally offers lower distortion from all drivers, particularly intermodulation distortion. Intermodulation distortion (modulation of one tone by another tone) is a huge part of why speakers sound like speakers and not real sound. When I have been able to work on three way speaker designs, they always sound clearer, more natural, and more transparent to the source. This is because when a woofer gets a strong signal and its cone experiences significant movement, that movement also modulates the magnetic field responsible for producing the midrange sound. You can hear this in action if you play a 20 Hz tone (at the threshold of audibility) while also playing a tone at 1kHz; the 1kHz tone will sound like it is warbling, and even very expensive mid-woofer speakers will do this. But this is also happening at other frequencies that are closer together, and it produces a 'jumbled' sound. When you can free a speaker from the job of producing lower frequencies that create a lot of this intermodulation distortion, it produces clearer sound. So you get a more transparent lens into the original performance. The problem with speakers that have many passbands is phase. The crossover filters produce phase rotation between the passbands of the crossover that has to be managed, because it is a delay in the sound, expressed as 'degrees' of a wavelength where one wavelength is 360 degrees. Crossover points work best when they are placed where the phase of the sound coming from a speaker overlaps with the phase of the same frequency coming from another speaker in the adjacent passband. Also, if passbands overlap with non-adjacent passbands and produce significant output, they produce strong off-axis directivity lobes because one speaker is interfering with a speaker that is farther away on the baffle. This is why concentric speakers are prized - because the system behaves with less phase alignment issues at off-axis angles, and produces a pattern of directivity that is always symmetrical.
Very well explained, I have the Adam Audio S3H and as you said these types of monitors are ‘UNFORGIVING’.
Great video!!! I just upgraded from a 2 way pair + 10” Sub to a 3 way Focal pair. I got rid of the sub, and also had to add more an acoustic treatment for my room, all the investment was worthy.
Great information. Congratulations on the 1 mil subscribers!!! Love this channel
Thanks so much!
Recently got some Kali IN-5's, don't think I can go back to a 2-way again. Will keep those PSI's in mind when I upgrade down the road!
Well, my decission at this point was really easy: Years ago at the music trade fair in Germany I saw the most showmen with that yellow monitors on the dishes. So when starting do DJ'ing two years ago, I decided to buy the KRK RoKit Classic 5. The selling points for me were: Literally the word "classic" in the product's name, showing that this is something traditional industry-strandard over the years and the good product's description at Thomann... At this time, I had less knowledge about all that things, but not a bad decission at all and I love them. Usually, I don't like to bring it to gigs but for small birthday partys, small pubs they also fit well, even though they are near field monitors, but they have a lot of sound output and can be very loud which is impressive for that small / mid-sized speakers 🙂
This was all very informative. But, it would be nice to know what is the reason that dedicated midrange drivers give better results. There is a lot of information out there but no definite answer: Things to consider are:
1. Human hearing is especially sensitive in 700 - 3000 Hz range, give or take a few Hertzes. Human voice is in this range, so this can be evolutionary trait. 2 -3 Khz range is important for directional perception.
2. Midrange driver does not have to reproduce low frequencies. Every octave lower we go, the driver excursion increases 4 fold. Lower excursion means lower distortion. And also, limited range limits the opportunity for intermodular distortion.
3. Driver diferences. In a two way LS drivers crossover in the sensitive area. If they are crossed higher than woofer might run into cone breakup, driver center to center spacing is to big, woofer may have excesive directivity and so on.
4. Are the crossovers to blame? Two drivers by themselves are not time aligned. In a vertical flush baffle their acoustical centers are not aligned. The drivers themselves have different phases at Xover frequency. The high pass and low pass filters have different phases. Could phase correct and time aligned digital filters solve this problem.
5. Midrange driver, be it cone or dome is smaller than a woofer. That means it is omnidirectional radiator and matches well with tweeter directivity wise. Woofer might not.
In essence, what is te root of all evil?.
I just got the VSX headphones and am SO excited for them. Thanks for this video!!!
The New Club indy is mind blowing. I hope you enjoy them as much as I do!
I would be so grateful if you could answer.
1) What speakers is it that you use here?
2) What speakers would you recommend for an intermediate mixing engineer looking to upgrade? I currently have JBL LSR 305's (the old discontinued ones) which were like $300 for the pair. I have good room treatment. I feel I've outgrown the speakers now. In my opinion they seem to smear the mids in a way that still makes it hard for me to get everything to translate (although it got better with the treatment).
I could see going up to roughly ~$800. I want something that is like what you describe in the video. Something that represents the mids in a critical listening way and helps me hear all the problems. I just want my mix moves to be accurate when translating to other devices.
Any help appreciated, thank you so much.
Your videos are a treasure trove. Thanks so much for the time and effort and for sharing your expert knowledge!
Hello relaxing cat.
I lived with a Hi-Fi reviewer for many years.
& yes the more crossovers you have the more points where you are not getting a clear response as the cost of less clarity.
I use the test my mixes on a 70k system.
It was a huge eye opener.
I would take a 3 way over 2 way any day!!
I use to love building a track on the big system.
The sound design choices I would have made changed.
The effect racks changed..
Now I have a tiny room & some old but I still love Dynaudio BM5a MK1s
More than plenty for my current needs. But we’ll treated room that is harmonically corrected is amazing!
I am just researching the topic and funny enough, right after your video I stuck upon this article on amcoustics which explains Double Bass Array and why it works:
It's quite easy to absorb such a flat wave front with the exact same loudspeaker array on the other end of the room. Remember that swing at the beginning of this article? How do you stop it? Exactly, when the kid is on your side you try to catch it, absorbing the kinetic and potential energy in the system. The same happens when some speaker cones move away from the wave front the moment the wave front arrives. Normally the wavefront would hit the wall, building up pressure and because of the fact that air wants to be homogenously distributed it would move back to release that pressure at the wall. But as the membrans of the second speaker array move away at that very moment the pressure can not be build up and the wave is not reflected. It's kind of sucked up by the speakers.
Great breakdown of the concept here. I would definitely like to see a review of those speakers, including your use case for them and why.
Thanks for the suggestion. If enough people ask, I'll make a video about them.
@inthemix Count me for the review vid! Maybe compare them to a pair of Klipsh cornerhorns?
@@inthemix Yeah!! It would be amazing to see a review of those PSI coming from you!
As always, nice vid btw.
@@inthemix Don't comment often, but +1 from me! I'd love to see a video about your speakers
Definitely also keen to see a three way monitor review. 😁
Sorry but just stating that 3 way monitors are more revealing is the height of naivete - there is just way way more than that - I'd take bigger 2 ways any time over any 3 ways - especially with horn tweets and properly controlled directivity - these problems are easier to address with less drivers.
If anything mangled directivity makes localization bad and impossible to fix, whilst response is very easy to correct, besides modern active speakers with DSP and active amplification manage this problem very well.
You're bang on about subs - multisub setups work really well, and frankly the only way to fix the bottom - multiple modes, nulls, peaks can't be eqed out.
Hi Michael, another great, informative video. By the way, I have owned your plugin "Reviver" for over a year and absolutely love it. It's one of my go to plugins for my Mix Buss 👍
Excellent vid, thanks. I have the Focal Trio6 Speakers and yes, I have two subs!! That is so right on, best and most accurate bass for sure. Also, a key thing when I had my speakers installed, was that the acousticians were able to set the distance and timing when things hit the listening spot, using a DSP (after physical setting). This is super important if the subs are not the exact distance as the mains, or rear speakers are not exact distance as fronts. Interestingly, these Focals were not perfect; the tweeter was hitting early. However, it was so close they actually just tilted the speakers back a very tiny bit until the reading was good. Also, I wondered your opinion on the design of having a 5" woofer as the mid? The main woofer is 8". They also have a "Focus" mode to switch to just the 5" and tweeter. It's a major brain squeeze when you do it though, especially for bass and kicks!
thanks, very useful video indeed, I'm considering a 3 way system for that exact reason, I need something unforgiving. I bought some genelecs 8030 six month ago along with the 7050 sub and I really like them a lot. I get a lot of details, the sound stage is vast, placement and distances for each instrument are very focused, very enjoyable. But I mean everything will sound nice out of these. Even a harsh mix, through emulated NS10s will sound sort of "ok" out of the 8030. Considering A8H, KH310 or SC3070 at the moment (for when I'll have the money ahahah)
Great guidance; thank you. The video on one vs two subwoofers would be really interesting.
i think that 3 way monitors have more phase issues and the sweet spot is harder to find, and the best alternative that i've seen was the kali in's series, because they have the mid speaker and tweeter together making a semi coaxial speaker (plus the woofer). another thing i suggest is to make the speakers sound better is to use calibration software as sonarworks or rew and at the end of the mix when you're translating it i would use a very bad speaker to listen if there's some issues (like the ns10s or the tiny jbl portable speakers). btw really nice video
i like the Presonus Sceptre series
Thanks
I add subwoofers to 3 way speakers to fix the lacking low end (most 3-way speakers their woofers are compromised to only handle mid-low well), and you basically get a 4-way solution. 😅
yeah.. the kali in5s are coaxial three way but have great bass capability. but yes subs are great to free up the woofers to not need to reproduce the lows as much, a major reason to use them. cheerz
Interesting and makes sense. I use ADS SAT7 3-ways. They were not so forgiving at first, but using REW and Audyseey Multi-EQ to flatten them out a little it’s hard to find something that sounds bad.
Gorgeous pair of A23Ms there 👌🏾
As a consumer, I added a 6.5" full-range to my JBL 4320 simply because the original design makes the horn tweeter irreparably louder than the 15" woofer, rendering the sound unbearably shouty and inaccurate, not to mention wasting the potential of the impeccable 15". To make the whole thing work, I switched to using my Pioneer D-23 electronic crossover, driving 3 separate amplifiers to feed the woofers, the squawkers that used to be a full-range, and the horn tweeters, crossed over at 100Hz, and 2k,
Now I can distinguish messy commercial recordings due to the balanced 3-way spectrum 30Hz-15KH, just by paying attention to the squawkers.
You are well-done!
Great demo between the different speaker types and the differences between 2-way and 3-way speakers. In some respects though, a single full range speaker without a whizzer cone is best since it's not likely to have any lobing, although it will have so many frequency response and other limitations that they're never actually used in hi-fi speakers.
Truths from a perspective of a recording engineer. Well done.
Most speaker designers will choose the best mid-range with the flattest and widest frequency response then design the cross over points to suit it. The tweeters, mid bass / woofers do not matter as much...
This is the evolution of the Linkwitz DIY speakers from Orion to the LX521.
Directivity is also a big reason why, with drivers starting to beam as they're pushed into higher frequencies. An 6" has really dropped off axis by 1500hz
1500hz is a wavelenght of 9" it doesnt start to beam before you have driver sizes above that, also driver size is including frame, not just cone. for example here is a 12" with a 1250hz crossover:
4.bp.blogspot.com/-bqv1bgFvQPE/TXDRNSrwrUI/AAAAAAAAF5Y/eVnCEZW3sQU/s1600/s15dsp%2Bnormalised.png
Appreciate this brother I always learn something from your vids and im a huge fan of monitors! Happy holidays to you and your family 🔥🎯💯🚀
I use vintage giant 3 ways monitors with dome midranges from 1970s. Since I make future bounce that use a lot of the midrange spectrum is very useful. I have 2 way i use with my 3 ways at the same time. when you did the comparison at 2:30 my two ways couldn't event detail the mids. while my old 3 ways were super accurate. But I agree, they show way too much issues. which is way use them with a stacked amp system to compare. I also use dual subwoofer! Thank you!
Michel as always you're one of the most trusted guys to talk about it, really helpful thanks for clarifying
Think of bass and treble like your peripheral vision , the mids are what’s in focus when it comes to hearing , and in turn , listening
I took a little different approach to connect my subwoofer - yes, I use only one, but the same would apply to a pair. My passive monitor controller has two separate stereo outputs that can be turned on and off. On the first I connected my 2-way monitors, on the second my subwoofer. So I can easily turn on/off both and listen how a mix translates to both of them. Of course on both the monitors and subwoofer the volume knobs are adjusted so I rarely touch them. Also the crossover frequency on the subwoofer is adjusted to match the monitors, even if they aren't connected there. And on both monitors the highpass filters are turned on.
The main thing most people get wrong is having enough room treatment . when the room is treated and the speakers are angled and at the right height
they should sound like a giant detailed set of headphones - even the cheaper two way ones . For two way monitors its best to VERY well treat the room , and add a sub that takes over from 90 hz down ( and hi passes the two ways ) - then the two ways will provide cleaner midrange and transients . and the low end will fill out nicely . if you treat the room right you will be left with a few humps below 500 hz that you can eq out with a graphic eq before the monitors . also make sure you damp your desk or angle it steep , or you will get humps and dips around 600 - 800 hz and comb filtering up to 20 khz
if you have space then making your room one end live one end dead ( where you speakers are ) is a good method . the dead end should be thick with treatment
That was invaluable information. So what you're essentially saying is that two way systems can obscure issues that will then jump out and bite you when you try the mix on a different system, but those issues will be much clear with a three way system?
How about those cube style speakers the some people use? They have a single "full range" driver, but really they are mid range focused and don't produce as much top & bottom.
Not me happy to see Michael post a video😭... Thank you for the insight
It always depends on the design of the speaker; how good is FR, DI and distortion. There can be magnificent 2ways and atrocious 3ways.
3ways with the same sound quality level as 2ways are more expensive due bigger cabinet, more drivers and more amplifiers (XO parts), but will have probably wider frequency range and SPL capability.
I have my system set up with my main 3 ways on A, and a set of 2 way's on B. Can play either set and yeah I notice on some music the two- way sound more pleasing and other music my main speakers. I'd never thought about it from your perspective but geez.. it now makes more sense to me. I just thought it was the particular drivers and not the design limitations.. but it appears both !
I agree with you, though I have no experiences with studio monitors. For mixing and post processing, I use the Sony MDR-7506 Studio Headphones, which have a rather dominant enhancement of the mids instead of a nice flat frequency response. In that range, the most impurities occur, let alone the battle between bass and kick drum. So, for me that is perfect.
I use to daisy chain Bluetooth speaker through the 3.5 mm jack specifically you can control the volume on each one, and once you balance everything, the image of the sound sticks out and you can have this amazing experience.
Very good woofers (eg. Purifi) reduce intermodulation distortion and other effects in the midrange, meaning you can get a 2-way that is just as good as many three ways, assuming they are all competently designed.
Directivity will still narrow in the mids, so waveguided tweeters are good.
That said, many three ways still use some sorts of waveguides to match directivity of the mids and tweeters, as seen in the monitors shown in this video.
Your video makes so much sense! As an engineer (though not the electrical sort) I’ve puzzled for years at why nearly all speakers crossover in the most important frequency band for ordinary music. It has always seemed much more logical to my technical mind for the design to concentrate instead on a driver for those all-important mid bands and to treat the bass and trebles as add-ons, so to speak. I like the idea of the Wharfedale speakers like Evo 4.2 or 4.3 for this reason. Actually my ears aren’t all that sensitive and I’m easily pleased with 2 way speakers.
But your video seems to suggest that having a very accurate and revealing mid-range might be self-defeating in the real world of recordings. Am I missing something here? Is a three way set a ‘good’ or a ‘bad’ thing?
It's not necessarily good or bad, it's just that when speakers start getting quite "revealing" they can also reveal poor audio production, so good records sound even better but poorly made music sounds apparently poor.
I think I understand that in a commercial sense - you don't want to put off the punters by too much detail. But when we consider ourselves hifi or hires enthusiasts, shouldn't we be seeking this very thing? After all, that's surely what hifi means?@@abhi211-T
This video was awesome! I love these kind of discussions
I'd be interested to hear how you would set up a stereo subwoofer system for room listening. And would that setup work for multiple listeners, or just the center.
Thank you for a clear, concise, no nonsense explanation :)
Fascinating stuff. I would love a video showing how good or bad the same sound treated room can sound based on the positioning of everything.
Getting my first pair of monitors very soon. Focal Alpha Twin Evos, which are technically 2.5 way. But they have dedicated low and mid woofers and a tweeter (of course!).
Love your thorough review, can you do one on your Orange box speaker behind you?
i do all of my mixing through headphones. although i know this probably isn't the best way, i don't believe my current equipment would lend itself to mixing any other way.
i have thought about what sort of monitors i might get if i were to go that route. i would most likely go with a 3 way system after watching this.
although i think it might be interesting to watch you do an in-depth on those monitors, i think you made it clear that it's a perfectly simple by-product of the crossover technology that is in play here. that's also what i appreciate most about your channel. you're not trying to sell us on gimmicks or tricks. you explain how things work and include when/why they would be desirable. i for one really appreciate it.
get yourself a pair of KRK Rokit 6s they are amazing starter speakers and last forever . They also lean to the warmer presentation so you can listen to all kinds of music and enjoy listening on them unlike sterile Genelecs and other monitors.
@@JonnyParker-Kali audio also makes really good monitors
@@JonnyParker- thanks for the tip
You didn't talk at all about the imperfections of crossovers which was actually your main point- keep this out of the critical midrange. However in response to that more of them is worse in that you get more artifacts from them in more parts of the frequency spectrum. But you did cover the response to that, which is that drivers covering a wide range of frequencies well is impossible and so fewer equals more driver distortion.
I'm interested in the 2 subs video. Will a sub and 2 way monitor not be so unflattering when producing?
Seems sensible. I was taught how to set up my guitar tone years and years ago by not scooping the mids. Because as you say the guitar resides mostly in the mids and a guitar amp mostly only really reproduces mids well. Of course you can engineer even lower-fi guitar tones by scooping the mid range which can be agreeable in some situations.
Oh gosh yes! Please do make a video on the PSI speakers, there's very little critical reviews on them, apart from everyone saying "they're the best" and then not qualifying the statement. Also why didn't you opt for the burgundy finish?
Firstly, while I like burgundy I just wasn’t feeling that they would be a good option for my space!
While I tend to agree that PSI are “the best” the truth is that there are a few incredible systems out there utilising digital tech to achieve the best possible results. PSIs are fully analogue and really are the best in their class.
Other options like the kii three take a much more digital approach but do so in a fantastic way and sound stunning.
The danger zone is that mid ground where you can spend £2-5k on speakers that try to do a lot of things and don’t really get it all right all the time.
Do the PSI review! I'm interested in buying them also ...
Very cut to the chase and to the point. Thank you.
nice to see you're using PSI speakers, planning to get a pair haha
Hi thank you so much for the really great and valuable video
Speaking of 3 ways studio monitors i see that some come with a dome mid while other come with a cone mid
Clearly a cone mid allows for a lower cross point with the woofer
Some mids can work great from 200-300Hz up
I see that you preferred a dome mid ? may i ask you why ?
thank you vey much again Kind regards gino
How about the dual concentric Tannoys they rock too. All about the mid like you say
3 way is applicable for most great use cases. Eg 1 Car audio: sub woofer + amp + dedicated amp and drivers for mids + head unit for high end are much better than without the mids. Night and day. Eg 2 3-Way speakers from the 80s much better than 2-Way from the 70s. 2 way is great when pushing out high volume low quality stereo or mono reproductions since it masks defincies in the mix. The main purpose of mids is to flatten the frequency response in the middle of the spectrum where vocals, keys and snares live.
That was some good audio! And great sounding midrange coming out of my 2-Way Micca RB42s. 👏 I only heard this good sound of voice from one other YT channel and he happened to be a pro audio mixer too! 😅 Talked about Dolby Atmos mixes… Sadly my audiophile interests are in channels talking about speakers, some headphones/IEMs, DACs, amps and vinyl. And none of them do anything great with their audio recordings. 🤔🤷♂️ you might just get a few quality subscribers if you consider reviewing/educating this niche. As we do love great audio in a video and there’s not many YT channels known for that! 😉
What about MixCubes or similar single speaker solutions? To really focus on the important stuff while mixing and switch to 2/3-way for fine-tuning. I know, that some people prefer that way.
Every dynamic driver has mass and "compliance" and thus comprises a mechanical bandpass filter. Dividing the audio spectrum into more and narrower bands permits each driver to be better optimized for its target band. The downside is that adding more bands complicates crossover design exponentially, which is why I take the lazy way out by using DSP multiamping, giving me tons of control points to wring the best possible performance from each driver and best transition from one band to the next.
Very effective plugin brother. I just tried it out. Super effective and clean sound!
Best explainer of technical stuff on the internet. Thanks Michael.
I have the PSI A25m. I guess that's sort of like what you have there? Those kind of look like my speakers but the mid driver looks different.
The A25m you have are slightly larger and feature a difference style of midrange driver but I think both units sound similar. You made a very good choice with them!
This was extremely well explained, Michael; thank you!
Wondering if I could get your opinion.
I’m saving to buy my first pair of monitors. Right now, I compose and mix exclusively on Neuman NDH30 headphones. Do you think it would be better to save for a pair of “forever speakers” like your PSI A23-Ms, or should I grab a decent pair of less expensive monitors, like Kali IN-8 V2s, just to get used to working on speakers?
Also, would love to see a dedicated review of your monitoring set up👍 Many thanks for all your content; I’ve learned a lot.
Those are great headphones. I would recommend getting a relatively affordable pair first to see if working on monitors suits you. They will offer a valuable perspective even if they are not perfect right away. I used 7 or 8 different pairs over the year before settling on these PSIs and I’m glad I spent the time learning what suited me!
@@inthemix Thank you! This was very helpful to hear😊
PSI are incredible monitors. Had my A21Ms for several years now, love them to bits
Can relate to those mistakes 100% . Yesterday I opened a project I mixed before 6 years. I just could not believe how much plugins I placed on each track....😂😂😂 I mixed that song again in 2 hours with 70% less plugins and it sounded 70% better. 😂😂
Great video! Always nice to learn something new here!
I'm currently trying out a 3-way and a 2-way alongside each other and the 2-way is holding up great through the mids and up through its crossover. I also tried playing a low frequency tone with tones up to the crossover and they didn't interact audibly, as might be expected. I would guess there are other ways of mitigating the problems of a 2-way design without needing a dedicated mid range driver?
Main things in favour of the 3 way at the moment are an extra few Hz of bass extension (should be irrelevant once the sub is integrated) and the brilliant AMT.
There is a thing called intermodulation distortion. When you have 3 drivers each doing their on thing you get less intermodulation distortion this giving you a much more correct frequency response. I remember a teacher showing ups an example of a crossover unit. The sound difference between a 2 way and a 3 way line is HUGE. I understood at that point why concerts sound like concerts.
Thank you for explaining this in great detail, i have various speakers to test, hi fi , DJ monitors T-10 laptop computer with tweeters and others have them too & Karoke system, so what you’re saying is the bass should sound good 50hz - 60 - 100 hz , I do have portable speaker system with two sub bass’s, got me thinking test my track on this two, thanks you for your help
Very interesting, I purchased Adam A7X a while ago and added sonarworks and have treatment. Which interestingly was under your recommendation. I never regret it. Is it safe to say that they work well for mixing purposes? I mostly do production and tend to mix afterwards for my own but want to share my music in a near distant future.
Oh yes, a pair of A7X with some treatment and correction are going to be excellent for mixing. You might appreciate a subwoofer depending on the genre but the A7X are more than capable speakers.
I used them right up until I bought the PSIs because it felt wrong to keep the Adams to myself when I wasn’t using them!
That dual sub suggestion is very interesting!!
Hello. You say that a 2-way speaker + 2 subwoofers is better than a 3-way speaker. Isn't it the same, just that the subwoofers are not part of the same boxes? Or what is the beneficial difference? On the contrary, I would say that a more natural sound must sound from 3 bands because all the speakers are tuned to each other, while the subwoofers are not tuned due to the 2 bands, unless I buy a set.
Is adding a sub pretty much the same as having 3 way monitors or not because the bass drivers in your speakers weren't designed for mids and maybe the crossover point is much lower?
Please make the video about PSI A23-M. Very interested!
Thanks, I think I will!