Trivia Note: the script was going to be Kira instead of Nog. The writers quickly realized it would take Kira five minutes to kick Watters to the curb and take over. So changed to Nog as his hero worship of Red Squad blinded him to their obvious problems.
Yeah, that would have been a very different situation. Kira is an experienced officer with a lot of battles behind her, and an established commander. She also has a temper and doesn't take crap from people. Would have been a very different story.
Absolutely, one other cadet to believe such was a certain James T Kirk, a belief that required he cheat on the kobayashi simulation to uphold. Real life and death situations do not allow such liberties as "alter the situation to your advantage as you wish". A competent captain would have known that.
@@zipzipzip991 I disagree. Kirk might not believe in the "No-Win-Scenario" but the mission the Valiant was on had a simple solution that would have resulted in a win: BRINGING BACK THE SCANS TO STARFLEET. Which is what Kirk would have done - complete the mission. The only reason for Kirk to even consider attacking the Dominion ship would have been an immediate threat to a Federation planet. Waters on the other hand wanted a glorious return after overcoming insurmountable odds. Which he already had if he had just returned with the scans but he wanted more glory by taking down that ship. Is your opinion of Kirk based on the reboot movie from 2009? Because the depiction of the Kobayashi Maru test in that movie is heavily flawed both in the concept of the test and Kirk's "solution" to it.
@@Tezunegari You right. Kirk engage with the Nero because he knew Nero will attack Earth and they can't wait the rest of the fleet or Earth will be doomed
I always thought Nog bared just a little bit of the responsibility for this disaster. Even if he didn't have the authority or support to take command of the ship himself, he didn't need to jump on the crazy train either. He was still the highest ranking Starfleet officer aboard, and apparently the only one capable of fixing the ship.
@@thehantavirus they were real-combat INEXPERIENCED officers. THAT was the problem. Truth be told, Starfleet itself wasn't initially prepared for war combat (look at the S6 premiere and the initial losses Starfleet took after leaving DS9) .... so I can't say that Red Squad is totally to blame.
@@jacksonheathen2092 The problem was Nog being a little starstruck. This was Red Squad, the best of the best of the Academy, which he was in not too long ago. Problem #2 was a lack of real-time application of rank authority. Cadet Dingleberry thought that the captain turning command to him, meant he had authority to toss those four pips on his collar and start field commissioning everyone. Yeah, highly irregular for a cadet to take full command of a warship, but they weren't left with much choice considering all the line officers were dead. That still didn't make him a real captain, just captain of the ship. Nog should have recognized that and taken over command of the ship, except the aforementioned starstruck and lack of experience on his own part. Not that he would have gotten very far trying that, considering the gold shirts had a thing for pointing max setting phasers at peoples' heads...
I wish I could say they did well, but this would be a textbook failure. Willingly engaged a superior force with an untested strategy and no experience. The chain of command completely failed with the Captain's death. Survivors were mostly picked off by the enemy. Lost a ship and crew for absolutely no reason.
@@ODST_Parker Not to mention going against orders, Given how unwilling Watters was about talking about going home, it strongly suggests that Watters intentionally hid the location of the Valiant from Starfleet to avoid returning home and continuing his "mission" was merely to avoid returning to Starfleet and staying captain of the Valiant for as long as possible instead of going back and becoming a mere cadet again. This fact is proven given how Jake and Nog had just left Starbase 257 in the beginning of the episode, the Valiant was only a few days or weeks travel from that base and Watters could have returned to Federation space at any time. The last standing orders of Captain Ramirez was to return to Federation space to get the cadets safely home and he likely assumed that Watters would follow those orders in his stead and the mission was meant for an experienced crew that would take over after Red Squad returned. It is also possible that the drugs may have had some effect on his overconfident nature, then again it just as likely Watters let power/command go to his head and wanted to live out his fantasy as a Starfleet captain commanding his own ship. This can be seen with the so-called rationale of his decision to attack the battleship which was flimsy at best; given that the Valiant's orders were eight months old by the time they were acted upon, the value of the intelligence that could be gained by the Valiant operating behind enemy lines was doubtful. More than likely Watters had it in his head that he was more than ready for a command of his own and that when he and red squad eventually returned to the Federation he would tell them of all the great things he and red squad did with him as captain and he be hailed as a hero for it.
@@Lightingwarrior You are assuming that Starbase 257 would have survived being attacked by 5 Dominion ships. More likely, it would have been destroyed.
The crew found a flaw in the Dominion vessel and thought they could exploit it. It never occurred to them that the Dominion might be aware of that flaw, and made sure that, even in the unlikely event it was exploited, it wouldn't do critical damage to the ship. In fact, they might have left it in specifically to lure in anyone dumb enough to try and exploit it.
At least there's a big Dominion ship out there without its anti-matter and an unpowered warp drive because of this, that expensive monster isn't going anywhere for a while. Not worth the loss of a ship or crew, but at least it's something.
@@XX-sp3tt Said ship did appear again in several battles, including the final battle at Cardassia, so all they actually accomplished was slightly inconveniencing the Dominion for like a day or two.
@@FirstLast-cg2nk Vorta Captain: Well looks like we're stranded here for a few days until a relief vessel shows up. Jem Hadar: What do we do till then? Vorta: Smoke if you gotem.
The type of discussion that Sisko, Worf, and Kira had about the signal from the escaping pod in Dominion space ..... was the EXACT type of discussion Red Squad was too inexperienced to have. that INEXPERIENCE is what got them killed.
I’ve seen a few of your responses on this video, David and they’re pretty great. I think they’re intelligent and well explained, and I found myself nodding along with your points. Thanks for sharing your thoughts! It’s always nice to read responses from a fellow DS9 fan out there. Sisko is actually my favorite captain, and DS9 is my favorite trek of the bunch, as a side note.
@@DavidKnowles0 except by this point in the war, the dominion could basically see through any cloaking device that wasn't perfect (the one on the Scimitar) at short range and would destroy them before they could even decloak. There's a reason the romulans and klingons basically stopped using them for the majority of the war.
It's called "counterintelligence," kids. The Dominion LOVES that stuff, and a great deal of their battle plans revolve around misdirecting the enemy into terrible positions with it. It's an awful shame that you and your "U.S.S. Lord of the Flies" situation had to learn that the hard way.
@@Sciuridae Exactly. Anyone remember Space: Above and Beyond? There was an episode with a greenhorn Lt, an overzealous showboat desperate for glory. He got his entire squad killed on their first mission. That's what Watters reminds me of. I wish he'd survived, so he could be court-martialed.
@@DrownedInExile You know what, I thought the actor did a fine job with the role. But I have trouble imagining almost anybody pulling off whatever scenes you'd get after you get your entire crew killed and barely escape. Just go completely blank and stare at the bulkhead I guess.
Nog is one of the most underrated characters in the Star Trek franchise. Aron Eisenberg did a magnificent job portraying a character bridging two vastly different cultures. At times over the top and others so understated that it was brilliant. First star to the right and straight on til morning, Mr. Nog.
It's possible those braces were there just to pull a fake-destroyed act. Maybe thoron fields or something were used to give the illusion of those braces being a critical part of the Dominion ship.
The torpedoes probably damaged the battleship, but just didn't destroy it. Kind of like how the Defiant and the Enterprise(s) can take two hits from torpedoes and not blow up.
I always loved this scene, the Valiant does its cool, clever-sounding plan and threads the needle to hit the small weakpoint in an apparently invincible enemy, and it just...doesn't work. It's not enough. The Dominion Battleship keeps on coming. The phrase "subverted expectations" gets thrown around a lot, but this is definitely that.
And Watters hadn't planned for it not working. You see the look on his face when it fails. He's shocked and briefly freezes. The idea of failure it seems never ONCE entered their tiny little minds. And they all died for it in the end.
@@bobpage6597 At his absolute most reckless, even Kirk had SOME sort of backup plan in mind just in case. Watters clearly never took in the possibility of failure. As someone pointed out, it's like he thinks real combat is all an Academy simulation and he's waiting for the program to end.
Normally in a typical Star Trek battle, the survivors fleeing in the lifepods get spared. But this is Deep Space Nine. The Dominion dreadnought attack was brutal and relentless. They spared no one. Jake, Nog and Baby Spice got away by the skin of their teeth. They barely escaped with their lives.
A soon as their attack failed waters should have Immediately ordered them to get the hell out of there at maximum warp. But Like a lunatic he Ordered Them to come around for a second attack and then he gets killed and his 1st officer doesn't even Snap out of it and Get them out of their to save their lives End within the next 30 seconds there all dead. Even nod took forever to realise they had failed and that medical officer chief girl still said that they should turn around and fight Even nog took forever to realise they had failed and that medical officer chief girl still said that they should turn around and fight Because the captain would have wanted them to Showing just how brainwashed they all were. Even at the end of the episode she still believed that they had failed the captain
Vorta captain of the Dominion Battleship: “Sir, May I informed you that we destroy a defiant class ship” Weyoun: “Of course, what’s the name of the ship?” Vorta Captain: “It’s the USS Valiant, a ship full of cadets” Weyoun: “Oh, what a pity. Even the Klingons and Romulans think that was stupid, surely Starfleet can learn from that”..
@Andrew Barnett Except they lost their anti-matter... their big fancy high profile ship is gonna be slugging along at normal speeds until someone comes along to give them a towing.
Imagine being a family member of one of those cadets. "They disappeared eight months ago. Turns out they were alive all that time, but then they died last week after attempting a stupid attack."
@@TheBigExclusiveSo the families would just be allowed to continue to believe that the ship and everyone on it were still missing? It seems to me a little cruel to let them hold on to hope that they might come back someday.
@@danieljackson1272Most likely that the families would be told that almost all of the cadets died, but it would be something along the line of "The Dominion caught them during their escape" Instead of "They died attempting a moronic attack on a Dominion battleship".
It wasn't a stupid attack. The stupid part wasn't the attack itself. It was a sound idea. In reality, you take that tactical data BACK to starfleet where it can be put to good use across the entire fleet.
@@danieljackson1272 - If they told the families what happened, Starfleet would try to spin the story to give them an honorable death. Like saying they died in an honorable last stand They definitely would Not say they died while attempting a foolish attack when they should have returned home. Usually during war time, they want to preserve the honor of fallen soldiers. Even if they died under questionable circumstances
A wonderful episode deconstructing so many Star Trek bits like "scrappy unit up against odds save the day with a wild weapon." Seriously, not only did they all get killed but worse, the Dominion knows what kind of weapons might possibly damage this ship so they could fix it. Red Squad goes back with the intel, they'd get commendation for such daring and Starfleet has a major secret edge. Instead, a waste of a ship, a crew and a possible secret intel coup.
I agree, but those aren't Star Trek bits. The "Scrappy unit up against odds save the day" trope usually never involved some weapon (at least not in TOS, I don't remember all of TNG), they were trained and seasoned officers, and they usually got Half Victories. They were desperate plans thought up on the spot because of a tight situation they were in, not the actual plan itself.
The ironic part is that even if this hairbrained scheme DID work; Watters would probably (at best) be drummed out of Starfleet for getting members of his team killed and wasting military hardware to go play "Mass Effect: Real Life Edition", or (at worst) he'd be dragged before a military tribunal and likely be imprisoned for life.
Probably not. Walters absolutely deserves that but this tale of scrappy underdog cadets triumphing over the superior Dominion would be a huge P.R. boost. Starfleet would probably parade them around the Federation to keep morale high, yet making sure the idiot never so much as picks up a phaser.
@@joethehero2 This would probably make a good episode of nuTrek: The crew meets a legendary kid hero from the Dominion War that had novels and holo-vids made about him but are floored to learned he's basically Zapp Brannigan - a lucky blowhard who got his whole crew killed for glory.
@@joethehero2 It would work pretty well for Lower Decks. Mariner acts pretty immature despite her advance skill set but can't stand being on a starship with her mother as a captain. I can easily see her transferring to serve under the "legendary hero" only to realize she's got to be the adult on a ship full of frat boys. Heck, I can even see Mariner's mother setting this up just to teach her daughter to act her age. Jeez, this works so well that it might actually be an episode down the pipeline.
Wesley knew when to cut his losses and get out and save as many lives as possible even as a teen during his entrance exam. Wesley is way better than Watters.
@@CrystalKingdomGeneral4942 True... You know, what do you think each forces during dominion war's HQ would be codenamed? My headcanon have SF command, Earth as "GOLDEN GATE", Romulus as "EMERALD HAWK", and KDF Qo'noS command as "CRIMSON SPEAR"
@@CrystalKingdomGeneral4942 also, it is... Agreeable to see another project wingman fan in the wild. Kinda ironic that the Federation in Star Trek and PW are like, the complete opposite. Pacific Fed seems more like Romulan to me.
Man, I wonder much of the show's budget went into just that scene of the Valiant exploding (3:59). Even though it's burning away (or I guess BECAUSE of it burning away), you can see a lot of detail of the ship's internal framework.
Amazing isn't it? People at home using their own computer setup example some fanmade CGI effects look Hollywood quality yet cost them virtually $ Nothing , but flash forward to commercial Movie Studio and suddenly the similar CGI effects required $$$ million dollar budgets , , ,man isn't that funny ? go figure 🦆🤔🤔👍
@@wyldelf2685You don't seem to realise that making it look good in the late 1990s was actually really expensive and hard. Computers back then were nowhere near as good as modern ones, and the pool of willing and competent artists was low. This is actually likely a mixture of practical and computer-generated effects, and that IS quite expensive.
@@masterdynamo6457 Hollywood always exaggerated cost 1996 and forward , studios constantly play politics between actors , production crews ,and writers , , ,Never believe them or the CGI houses " StarGate series" was around this time also they never complained about effects high cost or nothing , , ,🤔🤔
@@wyldelf2685 I don't believe Hollywood. I've done practical effects myself. Assuming a relatively small model that's still large enough to pass the detail check, the model alone for the Valiant would be easily $500 for rare materials, plus tens of hours of labour, maybe hundreds. This goes double because it has internal structure, which vastly increases the complexity of the build. Then, there's the pyrotechnics. They have to very precisely blow the thing apart in a specific way. That's a lot of testing, more materials costs and lots of time. If you're being paid for your time, we're well into the thousands by now. For one scene.
@@masterdynamo6457 entire scene appears CGI , , remember also Babylon 5 was around these same years and the gimmick of Babylon 5 was show was 85% CGI every episode , , ,food for thought 🤔🤔🤔
"Lay in a new course... straight to hell!" "Aye captain!" *everyone dies* Valiant, one of the few DS9 episodes with a truly happy ending. No one should EVER attempt to start a "red squad" ever again.
4:03 Even the lifepods were targets. This scene shows what kind of people the Dominion really are, the same people who murdered Demar's family and threatened to destroy Earth's population..
The bad thing is ....... Watters had potential to be a good Starfleet officer. maybe even a good Starfleet captain. but, like the entire cadet crew ........ there is nothing that could replace the experience NONE of them had in real-life combat with nobody to tell them to call it off.
I agree. Watters could've been a good Starfleet Captain but his downfall was his inexperience and youth. He didn't know when to walk away from a fight he didn't need to take part in, he was like Marty McFly from the "Back to the Future" movies basically.
@@girlgarde When I first watch this decade ago, I had hoped we finally get a Cardassin/Founder hybrid battleship being tested, something new and twice as deadly.
@@VitoVeccia Not necessarily, I Believe Captain Hunt of Andromeda in a episode showed you simply Deny the enemy it's objectives, rather than engage fully in a high risk battle.
I'm surprised the abandon ship alarm doesn't automatically disable the force field in the brig, Star Fleet doesn't seem like the sort of organization that would think if you're in the brig when the ship needs to be evacuated you can stay there.
I would imagine that it would be a setting you set when you log a prisoner into the brig. Putting someone in the brig is one step beyond simply confining them to quarters. You only get sent to the brig if you're deemed an escape risk or the captain wants to really send a message that your confinement is criminal and not merely punitive. Still, I would imagine a Starfleet officer jailed for mutiny or a civilian criminal jailed for smuggling would be given the opportunity to escape in the event of an abandon ship. On the other hand, a Borg drone or Gem'Hadar soldier would not be someone you want loose while everyone is running for the escape pods. So it makes sense that there are settings on when you want the detention fields to switch off in the event of catastrophic damage to the ship. Maybe Captain Waters is just such a shithead that he put Jake in the brig on the maximum security setting.
Starfleet always has people manning the brig when it is occupied, so I'm sure the thought of that person being killed and unable to disable it ... that would be something the Corps of Engineers would have to remedy.
Eh, it might also be a matter of failsafe. If your ship is taking a pounding, you want the brig to default to on, just in case, to avoid getting attacked on board.
"On one hand, we lost a Defiant-class ship. On the other, I think it'll be a while before we have another 'Red Squad' at the Academy. *I'm* willing to call it even, what about you, Admirals?"
Agreed! Sisko said it best, they didn't have a group of elite cadets when he was at the Academy which is safe to say they never did before either yet the Academy churned out some damn fine officers without the need for a namby-pamby squad of ass-kissers.
Am I the only person who is kind of amazed at how much punishment that the Valiant took *after* she was dead in the water and without shields? I mean, that's one beast of a ship. If only they'd had a few more main characters on board, then her intrinsic resistance to damage and their invulnerability would have saved her.
I know right! Basically everyone on the bridge was already dead before the ship took critical damage! And not from a direct hit to the bridge either, which at least would have made some sense.
@@benx6264 The worst thing is that the screens always stay intact and keep working fine even after they've exploded multiple times in the same scene. Starfleet must have figured out a way to put the magic smoke back into electronics after it escapes...
two moments summarize what was GOOD, and BAD, about him as Captain. and it's pretty much the polar opposite of the same issue: 0:59-1:04 when the weapons console exploded and killed the officer manning it, the first officer was stunned. but the captain called her by name and snapped her back onto the task at hand. 1:46-2:06 the captain did NOT have a backup plan (more specifically ... an escape trajectory) ready when striking the desired target did NOT have destroy the warship. and that hesitation is what ended up being his, AND the crew's, last mistake.
@@dhinton1 Yep. He believed his plan was infallible. The first rule of a leader is always have a plan B. If the plan is going too well, then something is wrong.
I love how Captain pill-popping muppet took almost 20 seconds to actually do something, once his ultimate secret attack plan didn't work. What was he waiting for, a gold-pressed latinum invitation?
He was a cadet, he instinctively waited for the simulation to end and the officers to take charge, but it wasn’t a simulation and by the time he came to his senses he’d wasted valuable time It’s why even had he succeeded and made it back to federation space, he’d have at best been given a commission at the rank of ensign, it’s why despite the training, all junior officers start at the bottom, experience is everything and he had none
@@3adgamd3r Good points. Though if he had succeeded, I doubt he'd have gotten the hero's welcome he expected, or even SOP treatment. His crew threw the Sisko's son in the brig. We all know what Sisko is like when he gets angry. Plus Red Squad were the traitorous Admiral Layton's pet muppets. And they had every opportunity to return to Federation space, but instead decided to be reckless show-boats. The narrative might end up that a gang of unruly children, playing at war and led by a drug-abuser commandeered the Valiant, kidnapped a Federation Ensign and the son of Sisko, and went on a wild joyride into enemy territory. If the acting-Captain wasn't thrown out of the service, he might find his unit broken up and reassigned to backwater posts. If Nog didn't uphold that story, he might find himself an ensign for the rest of his career.
Exactly. An experienced and seasoned commander can adjust to changing battlefield circumstances. He had no backup plan, and when his strategy failed he didn't know what to do.
If they had followed protocol, Nog would have been the commanding officer. Ensign still outranks cadet. That just shows how arrogant red squadron really was.
KuraIthys well, technically the Cadets had field commissions hence why Nog couldn’t take command, however the captain who gave those commissions probably didn’t have the authority to give a cadet the rank of captain, and probably had meant for the cadet to take command in order to return to federation space
I've always thought of this scene as writer Ronald D. Moore's commentary on the climax of the original Star Wars- in which Luke (and Red Squadron) also follow a similar plan to thread the needle, hit a tiny target and destroy a much bigger and more powerful enemy. With this scene, Moore is telling us that in real life...that kind of plan NEVER works.
DJ Nary of course then Rogue One then added that it was a deliberate design flaw put in specifically to make the Death Star blow up Because the Empire goes around hiring scientists by killing or threatening to kill their loved ones.
I mean, it works sometimes, that's why single-engine bombers were able to destroy battleships. Of course, in real life, the key is that you don't send in one or two of the little bombers to target the weak spot, you send in a few dozen of them and pile on.
To be honest, it seems like I managed to miss a lot of episodes. I don't recall this one or The Magnificent Ferengi and was believing this to be a Kobyashu Maru type of simulation.
Ah yes, this episode is the a reason why the "if i am ever a starship captain" list has an entry to remind officers that cadets cannot be field commissioned, and should any officer, including junior ones encounter some who are without supervision, they are to take command of them and head back to friendly space.
What Worf says is interesting here: "The ship has been reported missing 8 months ago." Did Captain Waters make up the "orders" from Starfleet command he said were addressed to Captain Ramirez?
I dont think so. He just took it upon him self to prove how great he was in command. And just went dark.unless the ship do sometype of data dump. I wonder what his logs says. Star Fleet command never will know his full reasoning for his action Their investigation going to be incomplete
It's been a while since I watched that episode but if I remember correctly Waters admits at one point to faking the status of the ship to Starfleet. The whole mission they are on is the result of Starfleet believing they are under the command of seasoned Officers.
He was basically given the keys to a brand new sports car, told to be home by 10:00 p.m., and decided to just stay out as long as he possibly could, enjoying his new toy. I kind of don't blame him, seeing as how once they returned with the ship it was going to be at least 15 years or so before he found himself having advanced far enough in rank (maybe Lt. Commander) to command a ship temporarily and probably a full 20 years or more before being offered his own command. So he was milking the opportunity for all it was worth.
@@andrewblanchard2398 I agree with you. But I generally try to keep my political comments separate from Startrek videos. There's plenty of that all over UA-cam already.
Nog was a fanboy to Red Squad so even though he was now a commissioned Starfleet officer, he was still a cadet wanting to prove himself to the best fraternity of cadets. He envied Watters who also got a battlefield promotion before he was ready for it, has he had with the DS9 crew; but to Nog & the crew “Capt.” Watters seemed better adjusted to the challenge. They were still kids, invincible to the dangers, and eager to prove themselves better than the rest of the other cadets & as good as the best adults. Their pride begot overconfidence; their inexperience led to their incompetence.
He was star struck. Red Squad always made his lobes tingle when he was at the Academy. Despite the fact he was a fully commissioned officer in Starfleet already, the "need" to be in Red Squad should have long passed. He learned the hardway what a mistake he made.
it also never occurred to them that maybe a Defiant class ship would be better in the hands of an experienced crew and that they should have headed back to Federation space.
@Aung Un'Rama There never was a mission. Worf said that the ship was reported missing for eight months. Captain Inexperienced clearly made up everything to keep up his delusional fantasy
Red Squad was a disaster waiting to happen. It's almost as though nothing was learned from the Nova Squad incident. If a cadet is able to charm his or her method of thinking onto other cadets in such a way as to override their own sense of judgment, death follows. Lorcano convinced his squad to attempt a banned move that cost one squadmate his life, Wesley a semesters worth of credits, Sito Jaxa the respect of her peers, and eventually Lorcano's place in the Academy as hecwas expelled. Watters was given command on an emergency basis and allowed his pride to rule the ship. Instead of returning to friendly territory with the information they had, Red Squad stayed behind enemy lines for most of a year, wrongly believing that they could do anything. Ultimately, reality came a knocking and the only survivors of the Valiant was one cadet, one Ensign who rightfully should've taking command if not for his hero worship, and one civilian reporter who understood the Starfleet life better than Watters ever could. Jake Sisko survived Wolf 359 as a child and grew up knowing that the life of a Starfleet officer required sacrifices within a personal life. I don't know what life Watters had before joining the Academy, but that life wasn't what prepared him to be put in command. If he had survived to be rescued, Watters likely would've gotten a dressing down so deep that such a dressing down would've been named after him, and then he would've been expelled from the Academy. The effectiveness of a team is a reflection of the leadership of that team.
Here's the hell of the Nova Squad incident: Locarno seriously learned NOTHING from that, and only became worse as the decades went on. If _Lower Decks_ wasn't a comedy, he'd probably be one of the most hated villains in Trek.
The real fault lies not with Watters, but with Starfleet Academy itself. The warning signs were there for years. Somehow the Academy became obsessed with performance over all other things, so it was only natural for an elitist clique to form and be given special privileges. Forget about court-marshaling Watters if he had survived. Heads would have to roll at the highest levels of command for allowing this to happen.
@@Lennis01 even more I get giving the squad a more advance ship to train in but to be that close to the borders when they know war is about to kick of was just dumb on Starfleet's part. Starfleet knew DS9 wasmining the wormhorle. and they had literal days before the Dominion attacked. plenty of time to recall Valiant to safety
This scene does so many things right. It shows how reckless those young cadets were, how brave they were against impossible odds, and how their inexperience got them killed by a captain equally young and inexperienced. It also shows how ruthless the Dominion are even if they didn’t know the ship was being piloted by practically children, they mercilessly fired the ship and the escape pods into oblivion. Honestly this was such a good scene.
It's too bad ALL the escape pods got unrealistically spared in "The Changing Face of Evil" later on. Can't kill main characters, I guess. Not even Kira or Dax.
I wonder what would have happened if they had hailed the dominion ship and said something along the lines of, "We surrender! Please don't kill us, we're a bunch of kids, for crying out loud!"
@@haydenmichaels7039 honestly, they probably would’ve taken them to a prison like they did with Bashir and Garak. And then they’d probably just die there.
First time I watched this scene: "Holy shit, they just killed off a ship full of High Schoolers to prove a point about mortality and naivety! In Star Trek! They died for nothing! The episode just moves on and you're left to sort out your own feelings on your own! More please!"
4:21 Meanwhile, aboard a Defiant-class ship run by an eminently competent captain and _not_ by a whelp who thinks he's the second coming of James Kirk...
Wow, Jake and Nog benefited from some hardcore plot armor there. First, they get randomly saved from the Jem'Hadar by a ship that's been behind enemy lines for 8 months. Then Nog is one of only two people on the bridge that escape all the explodey consoles on the bridge. Then the ship is kind enough to wait to explode until they get to the escape pods. Then they pick the only escape pod that the Jem'Hadar let escape. Then the Defiant just so happens to be close enough to fish them out of Dominion space.
Yeah that was a serious series of unlikely events haha. But sometimes in symbolic drama you cut a few logic corners to tell a larger story and live to tell another one, and Star Trek is nothing if not symbolic.
It might have been more interesting if Jake took matters into his own hands and stole an escape pod and stunned Nog and brought him along by force because he knew it was certain death.
This is a great episode on so many levels. One thing that this episode helps point out is that even when you have systems in place nothing works if people don't do their job. The captain is clearly unfit for duty and the chief medical officer has the right to relieve the captain in such a circumstance. Even the First Officer should have questioned the captain's judgment but instead just agreed with every decision. However given the situation of the Valiant it brings to light the cadets of Red Squad despite all their accomplishments and even the eight months behind enemy lines, the bulk of them were still just kids. Even when the Captain dies there's no one that attempts to take the captain's place. Great episode, well written, and can be viewed from a lot of angles.
Exploding consoles were originally meant to serve as a short hand during a simulation in the second Star Trek film for loss of systems... but the writers forgot about that.
also its exciting and dramatic. someone yelling "Oh no we've taken a hit" isn't anywhere near as cool looking as having a console expode and a beam crash down from the ceiling. it doesn't make sense but this is fiction so the rule of cool applies.
I would argue it at least makes sense in this case since the ship is getting utterly blasted to hell by an opposing battleship. You'd probably expect consoles not to hold up the best in that scenario.
Meanwhile, on the Jem'Hadar Battleship bridge: "Ah, a puny and understrength Defiant class. Sensors detect they're manned by child soldiers!" "Let's toy with them, Second. Just the prime-numbered weapons arrays. Let them think we've been beaten. Then, fire at will!" [minutes later] "I think we destroyed all the escape pods, sir. Shall we look for more survivors?" "No, Fourth. That's enough. We have earned our victory this day, and retain our lives once more. VICTORY IS LIFE!" "OK, First, you've had your fun. It's white time now." "Yes, Vorta."
I can see the Jenhadar enjoying their day they feel bump and ask each other what was that and the bridge informs them they ran over a small federation ship LOL
@@nessanderson6460 I know the regulations specify it as necessary, but they had double the standard amount! At that strength it overrides the established red-shirt quota at triple speed and can even compromise plot armour!
This is why in the Starfleet tutorial in the Star Trek Online game, Nog took command from the cadet. The game was one of Aron Eisenberg's last performances before he passed away.
they got cocky because they were red squad and they had one of the most powerful ships in star fleet. yes, the defiant class ship is a beast. but you know what makes the real "defiant" a beast: the people who crew her and the captain who commands her.
eh. The Defiant class needs shouldn't be over-estimated either. It's powerful for it's size. It can match up against much bigger targets... But it's still a very small ship.
@@thomashong2938 Defiant was their at the star of the battle and Enterprise was goign to take hours to arrive so she held on that long is credit to her design
NO ONE would have shamed the kids, or yelled at them or anything-in fact, would have respected them...if they realized we're nose deep in shit lets go home NOW. But no.
They attacked a ship that Jake Sisko said was twice the size of a galaxy class ship with 3 times it's firepower on a hunch that their plan might work. Jake even stated that his own dad and the crew of the Defiant wouldn't risk attacking that ship without help. In the end, a crew was lost, starfleets "brightest" cadets were lost and a Defiant class ship was wasted all because of an over inflated ego.
I appreciate that the writers of _Prodigy_ have clearly seen this episode... the kids all know that they're in over their head, and are both trying to get smarter AND trying to avoid these kind of situations whenever possible. If they'd been in this position they'd have run like hell. (The only exception was the Borg Cube, but it _was_ completely deactivated at the time and they had no idea how dangerous the Collective was.)
1:45 - 2:05 This was what got the Valiant and her crew killed. Twenty seconds of dumbfounded INACTION! A simple "Helm, get us out of here!" might have saved everyone, but Watters never bothered to consider the possibility of failure.
3:00 I've always laughed at this bit. The way she sits in the chair and moves her mussed hair, and then says "Auxiliary power's offline" in such a don't give a shit manner. The ship is burning all around her, colleagues are dead and she sounds so non-concerned like its just an inconvenience. A "bad hair day" as it were hahahaha 😅😅😅
I never saw this ep and believed that the whole thing was a Kobyashu Maru training exercise until the end. These kids were as green as they come and were acting as though they were in a simulation.
A question I've always had since 1st time seeing this is that you'd think that as soon as the abandon ship alarm goes off you'd think there would be a safety that would automatically turn off the brig force fields, right?!
Hey, do you really want your security officers to fall victim to an abrupt ambush by enemy prisoners at the same moment the tactical situation becomes untenable? Maybe after like, a 5 minute delay. (I'm assuming Nog got there in less time.) The brig isn't just used for misguided mutiny charges after all, sometimes you capture someone real nasty - and if you're in the middle of a war, odds are it's the same faction that's gonna be pummeling your ship into submission later.
What bothered me with this episode was regardless of who left who in charge, once Nog stepped onto that ship he would have instantly become the highest ranking officer onboard, which meant he should have been given command of the ship as opposed to following orders from a cadet.
You are not wrong, but how this episode plays out works for me. Nog is not crazy for not wanting to disrupt an effective chain of command in a combat zone. Nog is very immature for letting the "cool kids" persuade him so easily -- that is a key facet of the story. But once it comes down to making this aggressive and reckless attack, Nog should have stepped forward and used his head. He should make the big decision, even if he chooses not to run the ship. This little "captain" is just glory hogging. The data they gathered is extremely valuable and could save thousands of lives if used to full effect. Race back to Federation space, and Starfleet could find 3-4 cloaked ships to do the job right. Even if the shake down run is finished, knowledge about the dreadnought will be valuable when it shows up in a real fight.
Obviously just a coincidence, but Karen could have passed for Admiral Nachayev's daughter (if she had one). Would have made a nice little bit of continuity if they wrote that in.
Watters is lucky he died. He'd have been expelled from the Academy and probably sentenced to prison for his conduct. He kept the Valiant behind enemy lines for months instead of retreating to a starbase, despite being undermanned and having a crew solely consisting of cadets (including himself). He abused drugs and compromised his judgment on a continuing basis. He committed dereliction of duty and negligence of command on repeated occasions, not only during the episode but presumably beforehand as well. He disobeyed orders multiple times and in multiple ways, including in deciding to engage the Dominion battleship. He lost his ship (which is a court-martial offense all by itself). And he got his entire crew killed save one, or two if you count Nog. Nog undersold it at the end: Watters wasn't a bad captain. He was a terrible captain. Something was really wrong with Starfleet Academy culture and administration for such an individual to rise to the top of an elite cadet organization. The first officer, Farris, should've relieved him long ago and taken the ship home. She was a much more competent officer, basically running the ship while Watters was off popping drugs, and apparently she was performing both the XO and tactical officer roles simultaneously (which is about the hardest dual portfolio you can have in a combat deployment). But her mistake was buying into the hero worship of a false hero and getting drunk on the myth of invincibility and supremacy that Watters sold everyone (one more offense to add to Watters' list of charges). She did raise her concern earlier in the episode, but she put absolutely no backbone into airing her point of view and backed down immediately when Watters said "Nah, I'm cool." Instead, she took her frustration out on the outsiders, Jake and Nog, which is super unprofessional and a failure of leadership. Watters was clearly having delusions of grandeur; he was in La La Land. Farris as XO was the only one who could've saved the ship, and so she was the one who truly lost the Valiant by not confronting Watters. Nog should have had a lot to answer for, too. He above anyone should have known better. He should have done all he could to save this ship and its remaining crew, working with Farris and whomever the CMO was to remove Watters, but he never did anything to this effect. Instead he let his romanticism of Red Squadron go to his head, and he too bought into Watters' myth of supremacy and invincibility. This should have been a major dint on his service record and career prospects, with delayed promotion and possibly brig time. I think all the praise that people give Nog as the paragon of a Starfleet officer is super overrated and unfounded, and this episode is one of the biggest examples of why. For as much as people often say that "This is what happens when you put cadets in charge," I would categorically push back against that. Just about any competent cadet would have done a better job than Watters did. Farris is a more ambiguous case: Was she like this from the start, or is her own impaired judgment and unprofessionalism the result of eight months of having an increasingly irrational and incompetent captain and the impossible workload she was pulling to cover for him while also running two departments?
What’s cool is that you see a full warship’s battery unload when they know they aren’t going up against a stronger, more powerful ship with more formidable shields and a battle-hardened crew. These types of ships usually save only their most powerful weapons & tactics when up against a ship as powerful as the Enterprise so you don’t see a barrage like that.
Looked like a kobyashi Maru to me until the end. Of course the ship being the valiant could have been the continuation of the simulation. In either case I would never sign up for a ship named the valiant. Bad karma there
The Kobayashi Maru is meant to test a lot more than just a battle you can't win. however thes cadets definitely hadn't taken the Kobayashi Maru test before.
I was thinking of an old Plymouth Valiant...the engine would have overheated but the Jem Hadar would have had trouble finding solid steel to hit...most of their shots would have gone through the rust holes!
The Kobayashi Maru is designed to force a Captain to look death in the eye, to show them they are not invincible. Spock in the 4th movie suggested that when faced whit overwhelming odds your best option is to withdraw and that is an option in the simulation. In TNG, Picard was faced with a real no win scenario when two romulan warbirds de cloaked when they were chasing a double agent. There was no way Picard could of won and was forced to withdraw or die.
The way some of these comments are written... makes it seem some people here think they could have taken out the battleship if they were commanding the Valiant.
They really do 😂 Funny thing is the entire DS9 Dominion arc is this episode writ large, fighting a losing battle when you know you should surrender. The only reason these guys failed is because the writers needed them to.
@@RequiemPoete Yes. You don't need much experience to know fighting something that much bigger than you is a bad idea. What takes experience is to know how far you can push your luck and still stand a chance. Obvious stupidity is obvious. That or you just get so arrogant you don't see how stupid you're being...
This is a very good 'Take That!' to all those stories that have teens and very young adults somehow doing better than older veterans. Jake said it best: the experienced Sisko and his equally experienced crew wouldn't have attacked, having enough experience and maturity to recognize it would be a doomed operation.
Playing Star Trek RPG I once had a group come up with a fabulous plan for trapping a cloaked Romulan ship and it was executed perfectly but I told them it didn't work. ( for reasons they didn't know about ) My God the whining I heard after that. I was just being unfair as far as they were concerned. I had to resort to Captain Picard's "it's possible to do nothing wrong and still fail" speech.
@@Sovereign01 That game was like 20 years ago But basically The engineer on the Romulan ship figured out what they were doing. The funny part is that Roman was a Sabotour That allowed their plan to work so their characters didn't even know their plan didn't work. It was the players That got ticked off just knowing this.
@Sovereign01 They're well conceived and hard thought out plan to sneak up on a cloaked vessel Did not work. The romulan deserter on board the ship let them pull it off instead. Their characters didn't know about it until They met engineer And found out He let them do it.
No matter how good you think you are, one day you are going to lose, and in that moment, make sure you aren't in a position to lose more then you deserved
for a starship yes, but not really for things irl, since we got missiles drones,,,etc to take down any warship, which are much cheaper to produce than a whole warship. in a starship you can have a much more powerful power source, better shields more weapons placements, still needs to have smaller cruiser escorts.
Well the defiant class is not David, just a Jacked up and squeezed Galaxy class on steroids which makes the Dominion battleship stupidly inefficient for its size
What kind of plan requires getting that close to your enemy? Have three shooters: one with primary phasers, one with torpedos, both laying down cover fire with the hopes of disabling something on the enemy ship, a third shooter to execute the final plan ... unleash continuous fire while you maneuver close enough and at the correct angle for that weak-point target lock and finish what you started ... this is how you do a starship dogfight.
Trivia Note: the script was going to be Kira instead of Nog. The writers quickly realized it would take Kira five minutes to kick Watters to the curb and take over. So changed to Nog as his hero worship of Red Squad blinded him to their obvious problems.
Yeah, that would have been a very different situation.
Kira is an experienced officer with a lot of battles behind her, and an established commander.
She also has a temper and doesn't take crap from people.
Would have been a very different story.
Good grief. Kira would have torn Watters into little pieces and stomped on them. And then she would have gotten mad!
Yeah, the red squad "officers" would have deferred to Kira anyway. There would be no conflict, she'd just naturally assume command
@@KuraIthys and she is already well versed in starfleet policy and procdedure so Aaters wouldn't be able pull anything over her
Honestly I would’ve like to have seen Kira put these kids in there place
He never even considered the possibility of failure. That's why he didn't belong in that chair.
Yeah. The orders should have been stay long enough to hit Target and leave.
Absolutely, one other cadet to believe such was a certain James T Kirk, a belief that required he cheat on the kobayashi simulation to uphold. Real life and death situations do not allow such liberties as "alter the situation to your advantage as you wish". A competent captain would have known that.
@@zipzipzip991
I disagree. Kirk might not believe in the "No-Win-Scenario" but the mission the Valiant was on had a simple solution that would have resulted in a win: BRINGING BACK THE SCANS TO STARFLEET.
Which is what Kirk would have done - complete the mission.
The only reason for Kirk to even consider attacking the Dominion ship would have been an immediate threat to a Federation planet.
Waters on the other hand wanted a glorious return after overcoming insurmountable odds.
Which he already had if he had just returned with the scans but he wanted more glory by taking down that ship.
Is your opinion of Kirk based on the reboot movie from 2009?
Because the depiction of the Kobayashi Maru test in that movie is heavily flawed both in the concept of the test and Kirk's "solution" to it.
@@Tezunegari You right. Kirk engage with the Nero because he knew Nero will attack Earth and they can't wait the rest of the fleet or Earth will be doomed
I love how the helm exploded as if the Dominion reached their fist inside the Valiant and punched the helmsman right out of his chair.
What a waste of a Defiant-Class Starship. A good ship went to waste because a cadet was captain!
I always thought Nog bared just a little bit of the responsibility for this disaster. Even if he didn't have the authority or support to take command of the ship himself, he didn't need to jump on the crazy train either.
He was still the highest ranking Starfleet officer aboard, and apparently the only one capable of fixing the ship.
they had non-officers commanding, thats #1 problem.
@@jacksonheathen2092 then he would have been locked in the brig with Jake, and they both would have died.
@@thehantavirus they were real-combat INEXPERIENCED officers. THAT was the problem.
Truth be told, Starfleet itself wasn't initially prepared for war combat (look at the S6 premiere and the initial losses Starfleet took after leaving DS9) .... so I can't say that Red Squad is totally to blame.
@@jacksonheathen2092 The problem was Nog being a little starstruck. This was Red Squad, the best of the best of the Academy, which he was in not too long ago.
Problem #2 was a lack of real-time application of rank authority. Cadet Dingleberry thought that the captain turning command to him, meant he had authority to toss those four pips on his collar and start field commissioning everyone. Yeah, highly irregular for a cadet to take full command of a warship, but they weren't left with much choice considering all the line officers were dead. That still didn't make him a real captain, just captain of the ship. Nog should have recognized that and taken over command of the ship, except the aforementioned starstruck and lack of experience on his own part.
Not that he would have gotten very far trying that, considering the gold shirts had a thing for pointing max setting phasers at peoples' heads...
Red Squad: training so advanced they got to Kobayashi Maru themselves
I wish I could say they did well, but this would be a textbook failure. Willingly engaged a superior force with an untested strategy and no experience. The chain of command completely failed with the Captain's death. Survivors were mostly picked off by the enemy. Lost a ship and crew for absolutely no reason.
Fantastic!
@@ODST_Parker Not to mention going against orders, Given how unwilling Watters was about talking about going home, it strongly suggests that Watters intentionally hid the location of the Valiant from Starfleet to avoid returning home and continuing his "mission" was merely to avoid returning to Starfleet and staying captain of the Valiant for as long as possible instead of going back and becoming a mere cadet again. This fact is proven given how Jake and Nog had just left Starbase 257 in the beginning of the episode, the Valiant was only a few days or weeks travel from that base and Watters could have returned to Federation space at any time. The last standing orders of Captain Ramirez was to return to Federation space to get the cadets safely home and he likely assumed that Watters would follow those orders in his stead and the mission was meant for an experienced crew that would take over after Red Squad returned.
It is also possible that the drugs may have had some effect on his overconfident nature, then again it just as likely Watters let power/command go to his head and wanted to live out his fantasy as a Starfleet captain commanding his own ship. This can be seen with the so-called rationale of his decision to attack the battleship which was flimsy at best; given that the Valiant's orders were eight months old by the time they were acted upon, the value of the intelligence that could be gained by the Valiant operating behind enemy lines was doubtful.
More than likely Watters had it in his head that he was more than ready for a command of his own and that when he and red squad eventually returned to the Federation he would tell them of all the great things he and red squad did with him as captain and he be hailed as a hero for it.
LightingWarrior,
Great analysis.
@@Lightingwarrior You are assuming that Starbase 257 would have survived being attacked by 5 Dominion ships. More likely, it would have been destroyed.
“In my book, experience outranks everything!” - Captain Rex (CT7567)
In my book, arrogance blunders everything.
In my book, captain Nog.
We ban books - Floridians
@@priyonjoni Not a single book has been banned in Florida.
Californians*@@priyonjoni
The crew found a flaw in the Dominion vessel and thought they could exploit it. It never occurred to them that the Dominion might be aware of that flaw, and made sure that, even in the unlikely event it was exploited, it wouldn't do critical damage to the ship. In fact, they might have left it in specifically to lure in anyone dumb enough to try and exploit it.
At least there's a big Dominion ship out there without its anti-matter and an unpowered warp drive because of this, that expensive monster isn't going anywhere for a while. Not worth the loss of a ship or crew, but at least it's something.
@@XX-sp3tt Said ship did appear again in several battles, including the final battle at Cardassia, so all they actually accomplished was slightly inconveniencing the Dominion for like a day or two.
@@FirstLast-cg2nk Never said they couldn't just build more.
@@FirstLast-cg2nk Vorta Captain: Well looks like we're stranded here for a few days until a relief vessel shows up.
Jem Hadar: What do we do till then?
Vorta: Smoke if you gotem.
First Last the Dominion were the Ultimate soldiers I would not be surprised at these tactics
With a cast of such young actors, this episode was like watching a very violent Nickelodeon or Disney show.
Or Star Trek from 2009 onwards.
@@IllidanS4 lel abramsverse
Yes the crummy JJ-Verse that came later , , or call it "You can't do that in Starfleet" , hire Barf to be ship's chef ( i heard that ) 😋👍👍
And now they are I there 40s ....I feel old even though they are older than me
@@KillBoyUK Terry Farrell is 59 and still looks like a supermodel.
The type of discussion that Sisko, Worf, and Kira had about the signal from the escaping pod in Dominion space ..... was the EXACT type of discussion Red Squad was too inexperienced to have.
that INEXPERIENCE is what got them killed.
It's also the exact scenario of the Kiyobashi Maru
Plus the defiant has a clocking device. Valiant didn’t.
I’ve seen a few of your responses on this video, David and they’re pretty great. I think they’re intelligent and well explained, and I found myself nodding along with your points. Thanks for sharing your thoughts! It’s always nice to read responses from a fellow DS9 fan out there. Sisko is actually my favorite captain, and DS9 is my favorite trek of the bunch, as a side note.
@@jcpulido80 If the valiant had one, they could have decloaked, fired their torps and recloak before the Dominion knew what hit them.
@@DavidKnowles0 except by this point in the war, the dominion could basically see through any cloaking device that wasn't perfect (the one on the Scimitar) at short range and would destroy them before they could even decloak. There's a reason the romulans and klingons basically stopped using them for the majority of the war.
It's called "counterintelligence," kids. The Dominion LOVES that stuff, and a great deal of their battle plans revolve around misdirecting the enemy into terrible positions with it. It's an awful shame that you and your "U.S.S. Lord of the Flies" situation had to learn that the hard way.
U.S.S. Lord of the Flies LMAO
More like U.S.S. Lord of the FLAWS
Omg I seriously just spat out my coffee 🤣🤣🤣
I thought about "Lord of the Flies" too, when I saw that. I guess that was their intention...
Best pun, good one mate
He may have been a hero, he may have been a great man, but in the end he was a bad captain
He was bad at all three.
@@Sciuridae Exactly.
Anyone remember Space: Above and Beyond? There was an episode with a greenhorn Lt, an overzealous showboat desperate for glory. He got his entire squad killed on their first mission. That's what Watters reminds me of. I wish he'd survived, so he could be court-martialed.
And a red shirt you know death ☠️
@@Sciuridae And to add, they should never of attacked a ship that had 3 times the fire power of a galaxy class ship..
@@DrownedInExile You know what, I thought the actor did a fine job with the role. But I have trouble imagining almost anybody pulling off whatever scenes you'd get after you get your entire crew killed and barely escape. Just go completely blank and stare at the bulkhead I guess.
Nog is one of the most underrated characters in the Star Trek franchise.
Aron Eisenberg did a magnificent job portraying a character bridging two vastly different cultures.
At times over the top and others so understated that it was brilliant.
First star to the right and straight on til morning, Mr. Nog.
Way better than fucking spoiled brat Wesley Crusher.
Those two torpedoes really created a giant explosion for not doing a damn thing to that Dreadnought ship.
Like in the film _Independence Day_ (1996).
If I had to take a guess, there were containment fields up that protected the majority of the ship, so they probably knew about the weakness.
It's possible those braces were there just to pull a fake-destroyed act. Maybe thoron fields or something were used to give the illusion of those braces being a critical part of the Dominion ship.
If I were the Dominion I'd totally build in pseudo-weaknesses for arrogant federation captains to waste their time on
The torpedoes probably damaged the battleship, but just didn't destroy it. Kind of like how the Defiant and the Enterprise(s) can take two hits from torpedoes and not blow up.
I always loved this scene, the Valiant does its cool, clever-sounding plan and threads the needle to hit the small weakpoint in an apparently invincible enemy, and it just...doesn't work. It's not enough. The Dominion Battleship keeps on coming. The phrase "subverted expectations" gets thrown around a lot, but this is definitely that.
And Watters hadn't planned for it not working. You see the look on his face when it fails. He's shocked and briefly freezes. The idea of failure it seems never ONCE entered their tiny little minds. And they all died for it in the end.
@@bobpage6597 At his absolute most reckless, even Kirk had SOME sort of backup plan in mind just in case. Watters clearly never took in the possibility of failure.
As someone pointed out, it's like he thinks real combat is all an Academy simulation and he's waiting for the program to end.
Bringing a knife to a gunfight is one thing. Not *knowing* that you've brought a knife to a gunfight is another thing altogether.
Normally in a typical Star Trek battle, the survivors fleeing in the lifepods get spared. But this is Deep Space Nine. The Dominion dreadnought attack was brutal and relentless. They spared no one. Jake, Nog and Baby Spice got away by the skin of their teeth. They barely escaped with their lives.
A soon as their attack failed waters should have Immediately ordered them to get the hell out of there at maximum warp. But Like a lunatic he Ordered Them to come around for a second attack and then he gets killed and his 1st officer doesn't even Snap out of it and Get them out of their to save their lives End within the next 30 seconds there all dead. Even nod took forever to realise they had failed and that medical officer chief girl still said that they should turn around and fight Even nog took forever to realise they had failed and that medical officer chief girl still said that they should turn around and fight Because the captain would have wanted them to Showing just how brainwashed they all were. Even at the end of the episode she still believed that they had failed the captain
I really wonder if the Dominion were scratching their heads and going wtf after they fought Valiant. They prolly wondered who would be that stupid.
Yep.
Probably also thinking: "Huzzah; we're not the ones made of explodium this time!"
Vorta captain of the Dominion Battleship: “Sir, May I informed you that we destroy a defiant class ship”
Weyoun: “Of course, what’s the name of the ship?”
Vorta Captain: “It’s the USS Valiant, a ship full of cadets”
Weyoun: “Oh, what a pity. Even the Klingons and Romulans think that was stupid, surely Starfleet can learn from that”..
@Andrew Barnett Except they lost their anti-matter... their big fancy high profile ship is gonna be slugging along at normal speeds until someone comes along to give them a towing.
"Don't interrupt your enemy when they're doing something stupid...it's rude."
Imagine being a family member of one of those cadets. "They disappeared eight months ago. Turns out they were alive all that time, but then they died last week after attempting a stupid attack."
In situations like this, they probably wouldn't say anything to the families. Starfleet would bury that info.
@@TheBigExclusiveSo the families would just be allowed to continue to believe that the ship and everyone on it were still missing?
It seems to me a little cruel to let them hold on to hope that they might come back someday.
@@danieljackson1272Most likely that the families would be told that almost all of the cadets died, but it would be something along the line of "The Dominion caught them during their escape" Instead of "They died attempting a moronic attack on a Dominion battleship".
It wasn't a stupid attack.
The stupid part wasn't the attack itself. It was a sound idea.
In reality, you take that tactical data BACK to starfleet where it can be put to good use across the entire fleet.
@@danieljackson1272 - If they told the families what happened, Starfleet would try to spin the story to give them an honorable death. Like saying they died in an honorable last stand
They definitely would Not say they died while attempting a foolish attack when they should have returned home. Usually during war time, they want to preserve the honor of fallen soldiers. Even if they died under questionable circumstances
A wonderful episode deconstructing so many Star Trek bits like "scrappy unit up against odds save the day with a wild weapon."
Seriously, not only did they all get killed but worse, the Dominion knows what kind of weapons might possibly damage this ship so they could fix it. Red Squad goes back with the intel, they'd get commendation for such daring and Starfleet has a major secret edge. Instead, a waste of a ship, a crew and a possible secret intel coup.
I agree, but those aren't Star Trek bits. The "Scrappy unit up against odds save the day" trope usually never involved some weapon (at least not in TOS, I don't remember all of TNG), they were trained and seasoned officers, and they usually got Half Victories. They were desperate plans thought up on the spot because of a tight situation they were in, not the actual plan itself.
The ironic part is that even if this hairbrained scheme DID work; Watters would probably (at best) be drummed out of Starfleet for getting members of his team killed and wasting military hardware to go play "Mass Effect: Real Life Edition", or (at worst) he'd be dragged before a military tribunal and likely be imprisoned for life.
Probably not. Walters absolutely deserves that but this tale of scrappy underdog cadets triumphing over the superior Dominion would be a huge P.R. boost. Starfleet would probably parade them around the Federation to keep morale high, yet making sure the idiot never so much as picks up a phaser.
@@wdcain1 oh yeah. I forgot that iron eagles are a thing.
@@joethehero2 This would probably make a good episode of nuTrek: The crew meets a legendary kid hero from the Dominion War that had novels and holo-vids made about him but are floored to learned he's basically Zapp Brannigan - a lucky blowhard who got his whole crew killed for glory.
@@wdcain1 Maybe they can do that for the new Star Trek Frontiers cartoon or whatever it's called.
@@joethehero2 It would work pretty well for Lower Decks. Mariner acts pretty immature despite her advance skill set but can't stand being on a starship with her mother as a captain. I can easily see her transferring to serve under the "legendary hero" only to realize she's got to be the adult on a ship full of frat boys.
Heck, I can even see Mariner's mother setting this up just to teach her daughter to act her age. Jeez, this works so well that it might actually be an episode down the pipeline.
When all of your crewmen are basically Wesley Crusher
But if you have a ship full of Wesleys - who do you kill first??
Shut. Up. Everyone!
you dont need to, as you see they take care of it themselves @@shawnharris5682
Or Nicholas Locarnos...
Wesley knew when to cut his losses and get out and save as many lives as possible even as a teen during his entrance exam. Wesley is way better than Watters.
*FLASHBACK*
Chief O'Brien: "Cadet, by the time you took command, there'd be nobody left to call you anything."
*END OF FLASHBACK*
Acknowledged, crystal kingdom. Proceeding with hostilities.
-Jem'Hadar battleship, probably.
@nsr-ints We don't give orders to Jem'hadar.
@@CrystalKingdomGeneral4942 True... You know, what do you think each forces during dominion war's HQ would be codenamed? My headcanon have SF command, Earth as "GOLDEN GATE", Romulus as "EMERALD HAWK", and KDF Qo'noS command as "CRIMSON SPEAR"
@@CrystalKingdomGeneral4942 also, it is... Agreeable to see another project wingman fan in the wild. Kinda ironic that the Federation in Star Trek and PW are like, the complete opposite. Pacific Fed seems more like Romulan to me.
Man, I wonder much of the show's budget went into just that scene of the Valiant exploding (3:59).
Even though it's burning away (or I guess BECAUSE of it burning away), you can see a lot of detail of the ship's internal framework.
Amazing isn't it? People at home using their own computer setup example some fanmade CGI effects look Hollywood quality yet cost them virtually $ Nothing , but flash forward to commercial Movie Studio and suddenly the similar CGI effects required $$$ million dollar budgets , , ,man isn't that funny ? go figure 🦆🤔🤔👍
@@wyldelf2685You don't seem to realise that making it look good in the late 1990s was actually really expensive and hard. Computers back then were nowhere near as good as modern ones, and the pool of willing and competent artists was low.
This is actually likely a mixture of practical and computer-generated effects, and that IS quite expensive.
@@masterdynamo6457 Hollywood always exaggerated cost 1996 and forward , studios constantly play politics between actors , production crews ,and writers , , ,Never believe them or the CGI houses " StarGate series" was around this time also they never complained about effects high cost or nothing , , ,🤔🤔
@@wyldelf2685 I don't believe Hollywood. I've done practical effects myself. Assuming a relatively small model that's still large enough to pass the detail check, the model alone for the Valiant would be easily $500 for rare materials, plus tens of hours of labour, maybe hundreds. This goes double because it has internal structure, which vastly increases the complexity of the build. Then, there's the pyrotechnics. They have to very precisely blow the thing apart in a specific way. That's a lot of testing, more materials costs and lots of time. If you're being paid for your time, we're well into the thousands by now. For one scene.
@@masterdynamo6457 entire scene appears CGI , , remember also Babylon 5 was around these same years and the gimmick of Babylon 5 was show was 85% CGI every episode , , ,food for thought 🤔🤔🤔
"Lay in a new course... straight to hell!"
"Aye captain!"
*everyone dies*
Valiant, one of the few DS9 episodes with a truly happy ending. No one should EVER attempt to start a "red squad" ever again.
4:03 Even the lifepods were targets. This scene shows what kind of people the Dominion really are, the same people who murdered Demar's family and threatened to destroy Earth's population..
As Nick Fury would say, there was an idea.
Secret societies in military academies are a thing! Most are harmless, some are weird.
“Ah! Pattern suicide!”
1:45 It was at this moment that they knew...they f***ed up
The bad thing is ....... Watters had potential to be a good Starfleet officer. maybe even a good Starfleet captain. but, like the entire cadet crew ........ there is nothing that could replace the experience NONE of them had in real-life combat with nobody to tell them to call it off.
I agree. Watters could've been a good Starfleet Captain but his downfall was his inexperience and youth. He didn't know when to walk away from a fight he didn't need to take part in, he was like Marty McFly from the "Back to the Future" movies basically.
Jake told them.
@@girlgarde When I first watch this decade ago, I had hoped we finally get a Cardassin/Founder hybrid battleship being tested, something new and twice as deadly.
I agree, sometimes if you want to win the war, you need to know when to lose the battle.
@@VitoVeccia Not necessarily, I Believe Captain Hunt of Andromeda in a episode showed you simply Deny the enemy it's objectives, rather than engage fully in a high risk battle.
I'm surprised the abandon ship alarm doesn't automatically disable the force field in the brig, Star Fleet doesn't seem like the sort of organization that would think if you're in the brig when the ship needs to be evacuated you can stay there.
I would imagine that it would be a setting you set when you log a prisoner into the brig. Putting someone in the brig is one step beyond simply confining them to quarters. You only get sent to the brig if you're deemed an escape risk or the captain wants to really send a message that your confinement is criminal and not merely punitive. Still, I would imagine a Starfleet officer jailed for mutiny or a civilian criminal jailed for smuggling would be given the opportunity to escape in the event of an abandon ship. On the other hand, a Borg drone or Gem'Hadar soldier would not be someone you want loose while everyone is running for the escape pods.
So it makes sense that there are settings on when you want the detention fields to switch off in the event of catastrophic damage to the ship. Maybe Captain Waters is just such a shithead that he put Jake in the brig on the maximum security setting.
Starfleet always has people manning the brig when it is occupied, so I'm sure the thought of that person being killed and unable to disable it ... that would be something the Corps of Engineers would have to remedy.
Starfleet not Star Fleet. And you're a Trek fan???
Eh, it might also be a matter of failsafe.
If your ship is taking a pounding, you want the brig to default to on, just in case, to avoid getting attacked on board.
@@Locutus I used to be, but then I met people like you.
"On one hand, we lost a Defiant-class ship. On the other, I think it'll be a while before we have another 'Red Squad' at the Academy. *I'm* willing to call it even, what about you, Admirals?"
Agreed! Sisko said it best, they didn't have a group of elite cadets when he was at the Academy which is safe to say they never did before either yet the Academy churned out some damn fine officers without the need for a namby-pamby squad of ass-kissers.
Am I the only person who is kind of amazed at how much punishment that the Valiant took *after* she was dead in the water and without shields? I mean, that's one beast of a ship. If only they'd had a few more main characters on board, then her intrinsic resistance to damage and their invulnerability would have saved her.
I think the valiant had strong plates like the defiant. That might have been the reason they were able to withstand that bombardment.
No plot shields....
Plot Armor... Because Jake and Nog was on that ship, as you will notice that the Valiant was only destroyed after they left the ship by Escape Pod.
Defiant class ships all have ablative armor if I’m not mistaken.
Ablative armor
Starfleet still hasnt been smart enough to make panels that DONT explode in your face
They're working on new technology to fix that. I hear they're going to be called "circuit breakers" and "surge protectors"
@@benx6264 LMAO
But they used only the finest explodium in their production. What could have gone wrong 🤷♂️
I know right! Basically everyone on the bridge was already dead before the ship took critical damage! And not from a direct hit to the bridge either, which at least would have made some sense.
@@benx6264 The worst thing is that the screens always stay intact and keep working fine even after they've exploded multiple times in the same scene.
Starfleet must have figured out a way to put the magic smoke back into electronics after it escapes...
two moments summarize what was GOOD, and BAD, about him as Captain. and it's pretty much the polar opposite of the same issue:
0:59-1:04 when the weapons console exploded and killed the officer manning it, the first officer was stunned. but the captain called her by name and snapped her back onto the task at hand.
1:46-2:06 the captain did NOT have a backup plan (more specifically ... an escape trajectory) ready when striking the desired target did NOT have destroy the warship. and that hesitation is what ended up being his, AND the crew's, last mistake.
That's an interesting point!
He was so focused on SUCCESSFULLY completing this mission that he NEVER had a backup plan in mind.
“Orders, sir?” “GET US OUT OF HERE!!!”
@@dhinton1 Yep. He believed his plan was infallible. The first rule of a leader is always have a plan B. If the plan is going too well, then something is wrong.
"Plot escape course down the Z-Axis." He did have an escape plan, it was never implemented.
I love how Captain pill-popping muppet took almost 20 seconds to actually do something, once his ultimate secret attack plan didn't work. What was he waiting for, a gold-pressed latinum invitation?
He was a cadet, he instinctively waited for the simulation to end and the officers to take charge, but it wasn’t a simulation and by the time he came to his senses he’d wasted valuable time
It’s why even had he succeeded and made it back to federation space, he’d have at best been given a commission at the rank of ensign, it’s why despite the training, all junior officers start at the bottom, experience is everything and he had none
@@3adgamd3r Good points.
Though if he had succeeded, I doubt he'd have gotten the hero's welcome he expected, or even SOP treatment. His crew threw the Sisko's son in the brig. We all know what Sisko is like when he gets angry. Plus Red Squad were the traitorous Admiral Layton's pet muppets. And they had every opportunity to return to Federation space, but instead decided to be reckless show-boats.
The narrative might end up that a gang of unruly children, playing at war and led by a drug-abuser commandeered the Valiant, kidnapped a Federation Ensign and the son of Sisko, and went on a wild joyride into enemy territory. If the acting-Captain wasn't thrown out of the service, he might find his unit broken up and reassigned to backwater posts. If Nog didn't uphold that story, he might find himself an ensign for the rest of his career.
Exactly. An experienced and seasoned commander can adjust to changing battlefield circumstances. He had no backup plan, and when his strategy failed he didn't know what to do.
If they had followed protocol, Nog would have been the commanding officer.
Ensign still outranks cadet.
That just shows how arrogant red squadron really was.
KuraIthys well, technically the Cadets had field commissions hence why Nog couldn’t take command, however the captain who gave those commissions probably didn’t have the authority to give a cadet the rank of captain, and probably had meant for the cadet to take command in order to return to federation space
I've always thought of this scene as writer Ronald D. Moore's commentary on the climax of the original Star Wars- in which Luke (and Red Squadron) also follow a similar plan to thread the needle, hit a tiny target and destroy a much bigger and more powerful enemy.
With this scene, Moore is telling us that in real life...that kind of plan NEVER works.
Han wasn't exaggerating when he called that shot "one in a million"...
DJ Nary of course then Rogue One then added that it was a deliberate design flaw put in specifically to make the Death Star blow up Because the Empire goes around hiring scientists by killing or threatening to kill their loved ones.
@@Hartzilla2007 uuuuhh...yeah. Retconned into the narrative nearly 40 years later! :P
They should have used the Holdo Manoeuvre LOL. But then again, you'd need solid neutronium plot armour to protect the main characters.
I mean, it works sometimes, that's why single-engine bombers were able to destroy battleships.
Of course, in real life, the key is that you don't send in one or two of the little bombers to target the weak spot, you send in a few dozen of them and pile on.
Karen even looks like a junior Karen and certainly had the attitude throughout the episode
The red one?
lol took the words out of my mouth - she has an asinine smile to boot
@@nicolafiorelli1319 Thats not karen. Karen is the one in brown.
@@BastardOfTheNorth blonde, inexplicable prom hair, complains a lot about torpedo locks.
To be honest, it seems like I managed to miss a lot of episodes. I don't recall this one or The Magnificent Ferengi and was believing this to be a Kobyashu Maru type of simulation.
Ah yes, this episode is the a reason why the "if i am ever a starship captain" list has an entry to remind officers that cadets cannot be field commissioned, and should any officer, including junior ones encounter some who are without supervision, they are to take command of them and head back to friendly space.
Remember that Nog himself had a field commission which was ratified by Admiral Ross.
@@BrotherDerrick3X well…nog not only was only an ensign but he had an obsession with red squad..
@@BrotherDerrick3X And in Star Trek Online the player character also gets a field commission, straight to Lieutenant.
What Worf says is interesting here: "The ship has been reported missing 8 months ago." Did Captain Waters make up the "orders" from Starfleet command he said were addressed to Captain Ramirez?
I dont think so. He just took it upon him self to prove how great he was in command. And just went dark.unless the ship do sometype of data dump. I wonder what his logs says. Star Fleet command never will know his full reasoning for his action
Their investigation going to be incomplete
It's been a while since I watched that episode but if I remember correctly Waters admits at one point to faking the status of the ship to Starfleet. The whole mission they are on is the result of Starfleet believing they are under the command of seasoned Officers.
That’s an interesting point!
He was basically given the keys to a brand new sports car, told to be home by 10:00 p.m., and decided to just stay out as long as he possibly could, enjoying his new toy. I kind of don't blame him, seeing as how once they returned with the ship it was going to be at least 15 years or so before he found himself having advanced far enough in rank (maybe Lt. Commander) to command a ship temporarily and probably a full 20 years or more before being offered his own command. So he was milking the opportunity for all it was worth.
Exploding consoles still the main cause of death in 90s Star Trek 🤦♂️
In REAL Star Trek, you mean.
Well, the grenades gotta be stored somewhere!
Nog seemed to little bit too eager to fit in with these guys. He never bothered to consider that captain meth head was actually incompetent.
SOUNDS FAMILIAR
AN INCOMPETENT MORON
LEADS STUPID PEOPLE
TO THEIR DEATHS
LIKE
TRUMP
@@andrewblanchard2398 I agree with you. But I generally try to keep my political comments separate from Startrek videos. There's plenty of that all over UA-cam already.
Nog was a fanboy to Red Squad so even though he was now a commissioned Starfleet officer, he was still a cadet wanting to prove himself to the best fraternity of cadets. He envied Watters who also got a battlefield promotion before he was ready for it, has he had with the DS9 crew; but to Nog & the crew “Capt.” Watters seemed better adjusted to the challenge. They were still kids, invincible to the dangers, and eager to prove themselves better than the rest of the other cadets & as good as the best adults. Their pride begot overconfidence; their inexperience led to their incompetence.
@@aztn19 I agree.
He was star struck. Red Squad always made his lobes tingle when he was at the Academy. Despite the fact he was a fully commissioned officer in Starfleet already, the "need" to be in Red Squad should have long passed. He learned the hardway what a mistake he made.
It never occurred to them the purpose of the mission might not've been to destroy it.
it also never occurred to them that maybe a Defiant class ship would be better in the hands of an experienced crew and that they should have headed back to Federation space.
They actually succeeded in their mission to get the scans, but their ego got he better of them. They lost the intel gathered as well as a ship.
@Aung Un'Rama There never was a mission. Worf said that the ship was reported missing for eight months. Captain Inexperienced clearly made up everything to keep up his delusional fantasy
Red Squad was a disaster waiting to happen. It's almost as though nothing was learned from the Nova Squad incident. If a cadet is able to charm his or her method of thinking onto other cadets in such a way as to override their own sense of judgment, death follows. Lorcano convinced his squad to attempt a banned move that cost one squadmate his life, Wesley a semesters worth of credits, Sito Jaxa the respect of her peers, and eventually Lorcano's place in the Academy as hecwas expelled. Watters was given command on an emergency basis and allowed his pride to rule the ship. Instead of returning to friendly territory with the information they had, Red Squad stayed behind enemy lines for most of a year, wrongly believing that they could do anything. Ultimately, reality came a knocking and the only survivors of the Valiant was one cadet, one Ensign who rightfully should've taking command if not for his hero worship, and one civilian reporter who understood the Starfleet life better than Watters ever could. Jake Sisko survived Wolf 359 as a child and grew up knowing that the life of a Starfleet officer required sacrifices within a personal life. I don't know what life Watters had before joining the Academy, but that life wasn't what prepared him to be put in command. If he had survived to be rescued, Watters likely would've gotten a dressing down so deep that such a dressing down would've been named after him, and then he would've been expelled from the Academy. The effectiveness of a team is a reflection of the leadership of that team.
Here's the hell of the Nova Squad incident: Locarno seriously learned NOTHING from that, and only became worse as the decades went on. If _Lower Decks_ wasn't a comedy, he'd probably be one of the most hated villains in Trek.
The real fault lies not with Watters, but with Starfleet Academy itself. The warning signs were there for years. Somehow the Academy became obsessed with performance over all other things, so it was only natural for an elitist clique to form and be given special privileges.
Forget about court-marshaling Watters if he had survived. Heads would have to roll at the highest levels of command for allowing this to happen.
@@Lennis01You’re correct. Hopefully Starfleet has learned from those mistakes even in the 32nd Century.
@@Lennis01 even more I get giving the squad a more advance ship to train in but to be that close to the borders when they know war is about to kick of was just dumb on Starfleet's part. Starfleet knew DS9 wasmining the wormhorle. and they had literal days before the Dominion attacked. plenty of time to recall Valiant to safety
This scene does so many things right. It shows how reckless those young cadets were, how brave they were against impossible odds, and how their inexperience got them killed by a captain equally young and inexperienced. It also shows how ruthless the Dominion are even if they didn’t know the ship was being piloted by practically children, they mercilessly fired the ship and the escape pods into oblivion. Honestly this was such a good scene.
It's too bad ALL the escape pods got unrealistically spared in "The Changing Face of Evil" later on. Can't kill main characters, I guess. Not even Kira or Dax.
I wonder what would have happened if they had hailed the dominion ship and said something along the lines of, "We surrender! Please don't kill us, we're a bunch of kids, for crying out loud!"
@@NickDalzell shields are nothing compared to plot armor lol
@@haydenmichaels7039 honestly, they probably would’ve taken them to a prison like they did with Bashir and Garak. And then they’d probably just die there.
@@NickDalzell They did kill Jadzia in "Tears of the Prophets" 😜
This episode often reminded me of the movie Taps. The consequences when cadets play soldiers.
That's the movie I was thinking of!
No plan survives contact with the enemy.
First time I watched this scene:
"Holy shit, they just killed off a ship full of High Schoolers to prove a point about mortality and naivety! In Star Trek! They died for nothing! The episode just moves on and you're left to sort out your own feelings on your own! More please!"
4:21 Meanwhile, aboard a Defiant-class ship run by an eminently competent captain and _not_ by a whelp who thinks he's the second coming of James Kirk...
Wow, Jake and Nog benefited from some hardcore plot armor there. First, they get randomly saved from the Jem'Hadar by a ship that's been behind enemy lines for 8 months. Then Nog is one of only two people on the bridge that escape all the explodey consoles on the bridge. Then the ship is kind enough to wait to explode until they get to the escape pods. Then they pick the only escape pod that the Jem'Hadar let escape. Then the Defiant just so happens to be close enough to fish them out of Dominion space.
Yeah that was a serious series of unlikely events haha. But sometimes in symbolic drama you cut a few logic corners to tell a larger story and live to tell another one, and Star Trek is nothing if not symbolic.
It might have been more interesting if Jake took matters into his own hands and stole an escape pod and stunned Nog and brought him along by force because he knew it was certain death.
Yea for sure, and I get that you have to suspend disbelief when watching science fiction, but give me a break.
This is a great episode on so many levels. One thing that this episode helps point out is that even when you have systems in place nothing works if people don't do their job.
The captain is clearly unfit for duty and the chief medical officer has the right to relieve the captain in such a circumstance. Even the First Officer should have questioned the captain's judgment but instead just agreed with every decision.
However given the situation of the Valiant it brings to light the cadets of Red Squad despite all their accomplishments and even the eight months behind enemy lines, the bulk of them were still just kids.
Even when the Captain dies there's no one that attempts to take the captain's place. Great episode, well written, and can be viewed from a lot of angles.
Intel of the weakness was more valuable then a kill.
That lone surviving capsule was equipped with the latest in Starfleet's advanced Plot Armor.
Red(shirt) Squad.
Exploding consoles were originally meant to serve as a short hand during a simulation in the second Star Trek film for loss of systems... but the writers forgot about that.
also its exciting and dramatic. someone yelling "Oh no we've taken a hit" isn't anywhere near as cool looking as having a console expode and a beam crash down from the ceiling.
it doesn't make sense but this is fiction so the rule of cool applies.
Good point about the simulations.
It came to mean, "especially bad shit is going down".
But then it started happening every week, and lost all impact.
I would argue it at least makes sense in this case since the ship is getting utterly blasted to hell by an opposing battleship. You'd probably expect consoles not to hold up the best in that scenario.
Meanwhile, on the Jem'Hadar Battleship bridge:
"Ah, a puny and understrength Defiant class. Sensors detect they're manned by child soldiers!"
"Let's toy with them, Second. Just the prime-numbered weapons arrays. Let them think we've been beaten. Then, fire at will!"
[minutes later]
"I think we destroyed all the escape pods, sir. Shall we look for more survivors?"
"No, Fourth. That's enough. We have earned our victory this day, and retain our lives once more. VICTORY IS LIFE!"
"OK, First, you've had your fun. It's white time now."
"Yes, Vorta."
I can see the Jenhadar enjoying their day they feel bump and ask each other what was that and the bridge informs them they ran over a small federation ship LOL
TIME FOR HOOKERS AND BLOW!
@@Zerpderp0 Hookers and Ketracel white lol
@@Zerpderp0"Now let's all get drunk and play ping-pong!"
Severe design flaw in the Valiant identified: excessive amounts of explodium in bridge control panels, please rectify.
Reminds me of this exchange from The Orville:
“What happened to automatic fire suppression?”
“That’s the panel that caught fire!”
Federation requirement, request denied.
The explodium in the consoles is necessary to keep the rocks and boulders from falling from the ceiling.
@@nessanderson6460 I know the regulations specify it as necessary, but they had double the standard amount! At that strength it overrides the established red-shirt quota at triple speed and can even compromise plot armour!
Oops, I thought you said, "please detonate in the face of 8 cadets simultaneously after they realised their great plan didn't work."
This is why in the Starfleet tutorial in the Star Trek Online game, Nog took command from the cadet. The game was one of Aron Eisenberg's last performances before he passed away.
they got cocky because they were red squad and they had one of the most powerful ships in star fleet. yes, the defiant class ship is a beast. but you know what makes the real "defiant" a beast: the people who crew her and the captain who commands her.
eh. The Defiant class needs shouldn't be over-estimated either.
It's powerful for it's size.
It can match up against much bigger targets...
But it's still a very small ship.
The Defiant class isn’t a beast when up against a Borg cube. It’s a clay pigeon that needs to be rescued by a Sovereign class ship.
@@KuraIthys It matches up very badly against Borg cubes. You know, the things that it was designed to fight and destroy.
@@thomashong2938 well to be fair, its only a beast when sisko is commanding her.
@@thomashong2938 Defiant was their at the star of the battle and Enterprise was goign to take hours to arrive so she held on that long is credit to her design
NO ONE would have shamed the kids, or yelled at them or anything-in fact, would have respected them...if they realized we're nose deep in shit lets go home NOW. But no.
They attacked a ship that Jake Sisko said was twice the size of a galaxy class ship with 3 times it's firepower on a hunch that their plan might work.
Jake even stated that his own dad and the crew of the Defiant wouldn't risk attacking that ship without help.
In the end, a crew was lost, starfleets "brightest" cadets were lost and a Defiant class ship was wasted all because of an over inflated ego.
@@WaveForceful there is no punishment start-fleet could have given Nog worse than the disappointment of Sisko.
I appreciate that the writers of _Prodigy_ have clearly seen this episode... the kids all know that they're in over their head, and are both trying to get smarter AND trying to avoid these kind of situations whenever possible. If they'd been in this position they'd have run like hell.
(The only exception was the Borg Cube, but it _was_ completely deactivated at the time and they had no idea how dangerous the Collective was.)
When you do the math problem perfectly and even check the work and you still get it wrong.
1:45 - 2:05 This was what got the Valiant and her crew killed. Twenty seconds of dumbfounded INACTION!
A simple "Helm, get us out of here!" might have saved everyone, but Watters never bothered to consider the possibility of failure.
1:42 "Nice try, Federation cubs"
"I'll take the helm! Nothing personal, I just know this ship better than you."
"She's all yours."
Gotta love the classic exploding computer consoles. Star Fleet really needs to stop stacking dynamite behind every computer screen.
It’s highly compressed steam and gas, actually.
This exact thing is why the Kobayashi Maru exists. It never *once* occurs to anyone that their plan might fail until it's too late.
Sadly, this group of cadets likely never had the chance to take the test. It shows in their actions.
I saw this clip and thought " I don't remember this episode" and went back and watched it on Amazon Prime. Sometimes you just miss one..
Maybe _this_ time Starfleet will finally figure out that organizing and activating an "elite corps of Academy cadets" is a bad idea.
its not a bad idea the bad idea it lettign them border tour when war was coming
always thought this felt like the bad ending of a video game
If they had simply taken off the moment those torpedoes struck, they might have survived with their ship intact.
4:36 did they forget to add bass to Worf´s voice?
Just a Helium leak on the bridge. Nothing to worry about 🤣
The entire ship explodes, then it comes around like nothing happened.
They teach the cadets to have to big a chip on there shoulders. Humility is underrated.
Too* big, their* shoulders.
Do you know what grammar is?
Lol,yeah
@@Rob-hv5zq , what, you don't speak Yoda?
I wonder what their mission was and whose bright idea it was to send an obviously inexperienced crew into the line of fire. What ep is this clip from?
Wow! I barely remember this episode. I need to re-watch it. Thanks for the reminder. 😊
3:00 I've always laughed at this bit. The way she sits in the chair and moves her mussed hair, and then says "Auxiliary power's offline" in such a don't give a shit manner. The ship is burning all around her, colleagues are dead and she sounds so non-concerned like its just an inconvenience. A "bad hair day" as it were hahahaha 😅😅😅
That's shock
well she was 100% in shock and probably had a concussion from the battle.
@@kazmark_gl8652 Or a rather wooden actress!! Methinks the latter.
Or British. They're masters of the understatement
@@firestorm165 You're right, we can be the masters of understatement. But with that accent?? She aint British haha!
Dominion sure knows how to build em tough
One of those moments you hope someone says: End simulation.
No matter how bright a young one is, nothing can make up for experience and wisdom
The ship is half ripped apart, crew mostly dead but dammit that brig forcefield was made to last!
😂😂
And 20 production years later, the same thing happens on the Shenzhou in the pilot of Discovery.
That's Starfleet engineering for you: Unsafe at any speed
I think of the cheesy UPN ads for this episode, then
*Narrator:* They all died.
Just such a merciless writing choice, I love it.
3:00 it's funny how she sounds annoyed at auxiliary power being offline with all her friends dead at her feet. maybe she's a klingon! :D
because she is in shock. and probably has a concussion
Dorian suffered a skull fracture.
I never saw this ep and believed that the whole thing was a Kobyashu Maru training exercise until the end. These kids were as green as they come and were acting as though they were in a simulation.
A question I've always had since 1st time seeing this is that you'd think that as soon as the abandon ship alarm goes off you'd think there would be a safety that would automatically turn off the brig force fields, right?!
Hey, do you really want your security officers to fall victim to an abrupt ambush by enemy prisoners at the same moment the tactical situation becomes untenable? Maybe after like, a 5 minute delay. (I'm assuming Nog got there in less time.) The brig isn't just used for misguided mutiny charges after all, sometimes you capture someone real nasty - and if you're in the middle of a war, odds are it's the same faction that's gonna be pummeling your ship into submission later.
4:03 They even shot down most of the escape pods! That was brutal and mean.
Jem H'adar got more merciful when it came time to destroy the Defiant later on.
@@NickDalzellthey were told not to
What bothered me with this episode was regardless of who left who in charge, once Nog stepped onto that ship he would have instantly become the highest ranking officer onboard, which meant he should have been given command of the ship as opposed to following orders from a cadet.
Yes nog should have taken command, but he had such a hero worship for red squad he fell right in line.
You are not wrong, but how this episode plays out works for me. Nog is not crazy for not wanting to disrupt an effective chain of command in a combat zone. Nog is very immature for letting the "cool kids" persuade him so easily -- that is a key facet of the story. But once it comes down to making this aggressive and reckless attack, Nog should have stepped forward and used his head. He should make the big decision, even if he chooses not to run the ship.
This little "captain" is just glory hogging. The data they gathered is extremely valuable and could save thousands of lives if used to full effect. Race back to Federation space, and Starfleet could find 3-4 cloaked ships to do the job right. Even if the shake down run is finished, knowledge about the dreadnought will be valuable when it shows up in a real fight.
Maybe. But then he would have been in the brig with Jake.
This is the exact moment you go “oh shit!”
Obviously just a coincidence, but Karen could have passed for Admiral Nachayev's daughter (if she had one). Would have made a nice little bit of continuity if they wrote that in.
Watters is lucky he died. He'd have been expelled from the Academy and probably sentenced to prison for his conduct. He kept the Valiant behind enemy lines for months instead of retreating to a starbase, despite being undermanned and having a crew solely consisting of cadets (including himself). He abused drugs and compromised his judgment on a continuing basis. He committed dereliction of duty and negligence of command on repeated occasions, not only during the episode but presumably beforehand as well. He disobeyed orders multiple times and in multiple ways, including in deciding to engage the Dominion battleship. He lost his ship (which is a court-martial offense all by itself). And he got his entire crew killed save one, or two if you count Nog. Nog undersold it at the end: Watters wasn't a bad captain. He was a terrible captain. Something was really wrong with Starfleet Academy culture and administration for such an individual to rise to the top of an elite cadet organization.
The first officer, Farris, should've relieved him long ago and taken the ship home. She was a much more competent officer, basically running the ship while Watters was off popping drugs, and apparently she was performing both the XO and tactical officer roles simultaneously (which is about the hardest dual portfolio you can have in a combat deployment). But her mistake was buying into the hero worship of a false hero and getting drunk on the myth of invincibility and supremacy that Watters sold everyone (one more offense to add to Watters' list of charges). She did raise her concern earlier in the episode, but she put absolutely no backbone into airing her point of view and backed down immediately when Watters said "Nah, I'm cool." Instead, she took her frustration out on the outsiders, Jake and Nog, which is super unprofessional and a failure of leadership. Watters was clearly having delusions of grandeur; he was in La La Land. Farris as XO was the only one who could've saved the ship, and so she was the one who truly lost the Valiant by not confronting Watters.
Nog should have had a lot to answer for, too. He above anyone should have known better. He should have done all he could to save this ship and its remaining crew, working with Farris and whomever the CMO was to remove Watters, but he never did anything to this effect. Instead he let his romanticism of Red Squadron go to his head, and he too bought into Watters' myth of supremacy and invincibility. This should have been a major dint on his service record and career prospects, with delayed promotion and possibly brig time. I think all the praise that people give Nog as the paragon of a Starfleet officer is super overrated and unfounded, and this episode is one of the biggest examples of why.
For as much as people often say that "This is what happens when you put cadets in charge," I would categorically push back against that. Just about any competent cadet would have done a better job than Watters did. Farris is a more ambiguous case: Was she like this from the start, or is her own impaired judgment and unprofessionalism the result of eight months of having an increasingly irrational and incompetent captain and the impossible workload she was pulling to cover for him while also running two departments?
What’s cool is that you see a full warship’s battery unload when they know they aren’t going up against a stronger, more powerful ship with more formidable shields and a battle-hardened crew. These types of ships usually save only their most powerful weapons & tactics when up against a ship as powerful as the Enterprise so you don’t see a barrage like that.
It's like hitting the he Death Star's exhaust port . . .and it does nothing and fires on Yavin IV.
Looked like a kobyashi Maru to me until the end. Of course the ship being the valiant could have been the continuation of the simulation. In either case I would never sign up for a ship named the valiant. Bad karma there
The Kobayashi Maru is meant to test a lot more than just a battle you can't win. however thes cadets definitely hadn't taken the Kobayashi Maru test before.
HMS Valiant had a rather impressive career in the world wars. All the Queen Elizabeth’s did. Prince Philip was on the Valiant at cape matapan
@@johnlavery3433 God bless the royal Navy! I was talking about the Star trek universe where 3 of 4 ships named the valiant died prematurely
I was thinking of an old Plymouth Valiant...the engine would have overheated but the Jem Hadar would have had trouble finding solid steel to hit...most of their shots would have gone through the rust holes!
The Kobayashi Maru is designed to force a Captain to look death in the eye, to show them they are not invincible.
Spock in the 4th movie suggested that when faced whit overwhelming odds your best option is to withdraw and that is an option in the simulation.
In TNG, Picard was faced with a real no win scenario when two romulan warbirds de cloaked when they were chasing a double agent. There was no way Picard could of won and was forced to withdraw or die.
This was the most red shirt themed episode ever.
The way some of these comments are written... makes it seem some people here think they could have taken out the battleship if they were commanding the Valiant.
They really do 😂
Funny thing is the entire DS9 Dominion arc is this episode writ large, fighting a losing battle when you know you should surrender. The only reason these guys failed is because the writers needed them to.
No. I think most just seem to express they have enough sense to not engage at all.
@@RequiemPoete Yes. You don't need much experience to know fighting something that much bigger than you is a bad idea.
What takes experience is to know how far you can push your luck and still stand a chance.
Obvious stupidity is obvious.
That or you just get so arrogant you don't see how stupid you're being...
This is a very good 'Take That!' to all those stories that have teens and very young adults somehow doing better than older veterans. Jake said it best: the experienced Sisko and his equally experienced crew wouldn't have attacked, having enough experience and maturity to recognize it would be a doomed operation.
Playing Star Trek RPG I once had a group come up with a fabulous plan for trapping a cloaked Romulan ship and it was executed perfectly but I told them it didn't work. ( for reasons they didn't know about )
My God the whining I heard after that.
I was just being unfair as far as they were concerned.
I had to resort to Captain Picard's "it's possible to do nothing wrong and still fail" speech.
What were those reasons?
@@Sovereign01 That game was like 20 years ago But basically The engineer on the Romulan ship figured out what they were doing.
The funny part is that Roman was a Sabotour That allowed their plan to work so their characters didn't even know their plan didn't work.
It was the players That got ticked off just knowing this.
@@shaungould6391 So did it work or not?
@Sovereign01 They're well conceived and hard thought out plan to sneak up on a cloaked vessel Did not work.
The romulan deserter on board the ship let them pull it off instead.
Their characters didn't know about it until They met engineer And found out He let them do it.
Basically, a bunch of kids thought they found a weakness that the greatest scientific and military minds in Starfleet somehow overlooked.
Jackson Heaton yes he did he did say at the end that he was a great man but at the end he was a bad captain
Right.
2:22 now thats a beast of a warship!! Look at that thing !!!
Do you think starfleet put a self destruct mode into every console and a coiled spring for every chair on the bridge if you make the wrong decision?
Trying to get into the "in crowd" can be dangerous.
No matter how good you think you are, one day you are going to lose, and in that moment, make sure you aren't in a position to lose more then you deserved
Console manufacturers, the greatest killers of the Star Trek franchise.
This is proof that super sized warships still have a place in naval combat and that sometimes, Goliath crushes David......
for a starship yes, but not really for things irl, since we got missiles drones,,,etc to take down any warship, which are much cheaper to produce than a whole warship.
in a starship you can have a much more powerful power source, better shields more weapons placements, still needs to have smaller cruiser escorts.
Well the defiant class is not David, just a Jacked up and squeezed Galaxy class on steroids which makes the Dominion battleship stupidly inefficient for its size
What kind of plan requires getting that close to your enemy? Have three shooters: one with primary phasers, one with torpedos, both laying down cover fire with the hopes of disabling something on the enemy ship, a third shooter to execute the final plan ... unleash continuous fire while you maneuver close enough and at the correct angle for that weak-point target lock and finish what you started ... this is how you do a starship dogfight.
Guy was defo on Coke if he thought he could take on that ship with basically rocks and a deluded crew. Walters was high on power and low on IQ
Drugs creating a perception of invulnerability
With all that blood they truly lived up to their name...
rEd SqUaD