Worthy of mentioning that it is possible to get more cornering forces out of tyres even when running more camber than would be optimal for contact patch size. The camber thrust effect can on suitable tyres give you more cornering grip when running very high amounts of camber even when the pressure distribution is unequal and you're not using all of the contact patch. Talking to a former racer and race car builder (currently developing simulators) he said that for maximum cornering power they could run past -4 degrees, and would have gotten even more cornering performance with more camber, but due to diminishing returns and extremely rapid tyre wear it wasn't a sensible option. So you might see sprint race cars with more camber than endurance race cars, and qualifying setups with more camber than race setups. For example Michelin recommended Porsche Supercup cars -4.5 degrees of camber and a 20 degrees Celsius temperature delta between inside and outside of the tyre as a starting point, compared to -3.5 degrees that McLaren used as the baseline setup for their 12C GT3 race car intended more for longer races.
I always laugh at those stanced cars with extreme camber. Those cars are completely undriveable and it ruins perfectly good cars. Also, my dad was a mechanical engineer too.
+kkthxk then youll have these fucks say "while its their car they can do what they want" you dont mod a car just so it looks good to you. you mod it so you get some looks (good looks)
Camber doesn't affect the friction coefficient, only the transmitted net force. Friction is largely independent from surface area, ideal camber helps grip by means of negating tire/tread flex, creating ideal pressure distribution and minimizing tire rub off. Not by increasing coefficients.
Wow this was really informative, I never expected performance cars added more camber or that their was a strategic advantage to adding some because the wheel would straighten up a little on a turn and that makes a lot of sense. Now I understand why master tuners can make garbage cars into track stars on forza. I have to start messing with camber now.
+Ryan Spalding the wheel don't straighten, the tire rolls over less. but dynamic camber changes due to suspension design and roll center issues with weight balance are where the differences for handling come into play.
I had a chance to speak with a european hillclimb champion he told me that -5° is fairly usual on a racing spec M3 E36. Interesting to see such a big deviation between various racecar classes.
I rebuilt the suspension in my Australian built 2002 Holden VY SS Commodore back in 2012,it is FE2 specd from the factory (1 1/4 inches or 30mm) lower than standard height suspension. I fitted the springs for the Holden Monaro coupe (aka 2002 GTO Pontiac) into it,they are 30mm standard rate King Springs,all of the shock absorbers & bushes have been replaced by me. Now, the standard negative camber adjustment for a standard Commodore is 0° 30 minutes & 0° 48 minutes for the FE2 suspension setup both front & rear. My point is the left hand front is set at 1° 43 minutes of negative camber & the right hand front is set at 50 minutes of negative camber. Both the rear tyres are set at about 2° 20 minutes of negative camber, the rear camber isn't adjustable. The left hand rear tyres used to scrub out the inside part of the tread on until I rebushed the rear,the inner rear control arm bushes were made of nylon,the offending bush was on the left hand control arm,it was distorted (pushed out of shape),the bushes are all urethane ones now. Ever since rebuilding the suspension & getting a wheel alignment done, the tyres haven't scrubbed out on the car,they wear flat & evenly,they have lasted about 20,000 kilometres whereas they used to last about 6,000 kilometres !
4 years later and i see more and more cars with -10 camber lol.. tbh im trying to figure out how much performance benefits ill have to sacrifice with -3 to -4 in the rear because looking "cool" is still fun
I'm curious why you didn't talk about MacPherson strut cars. All the cars you mentioned have sophisticated front suspensions that add negative camber under suspension compression. They don't need a high static camber cause the suspension adds (and removes) it dynamically. MacPherson strut cars can perform very well with camber's at -2.0 and more because the suspension design doesn't add negative camber under compression.
+George Davidson It will always depend on the suspension set up, regardless of the type. Simply changing the control arm lengths can have a huge impact. Then there's angles, pivot points, etc. There's never going to be a one size fits all for this kind of thing.
with mcpherson you have to look at the lower arm, if the mounting on the car is higher than the mounting on the wheel hub then you have increased negative camber on bump right until the arm goes over the parallel line and over the 90° angle with the strut steering axis.
I live in Thailand, where the national pastime has long been to drive like a maniac, whether in a car, truck, van, bus, or on a motorbike or motorcycle. Extreme negative camber seems to be the latest fad here among sedan drivers, no matter how under-powered the car or over-crowded the roads (not to mention the frequent rain). Just when I thought driving here couldn't get anymore dangerous.
How would one calculate their ideal camber settings? I know this is likely dependent on tire compound, and pressure (as well as sidewall stiffness). I have -1.7° in my 2005 STi that I use for autocross, and I find that I still roll the tire over past the "wear triangles" on the side. I know a lot of my opponents run -3.0° or even -3.5° (front), and they're not rolling over their tire, but I'm not sure if they're actually getting benefit in grip from running so much. It'd also be cool to see how much grip their losing in breaking zones with these amounts. According to your video their camber settings seem extreme even for the track. (I'm talking about subarus only).
+Benjamin Spatafora Probably would be easier to test rather than calculate. You'd have to try it at various settings and see how that affects lateral load, ideally with a nice open space and similar conditions for each test.
Yeah, your probably right. There would be a lot of unknowns to calculate it. That would be an advantage of camber plates. Would you say rolling past the triangles on the edge of the tire is bad for grip (or just bad for wear, this is my assumption). Thanks for the response!
+PeaceDotExe If the leading wheel is at full lock, isn't it pointed the direction the car is traveling? How much benefit does negative camber provide in this situation, or what is the camber when the wheel's at full lock?
correct, the leading wheel is pointed in the direction of travel. because of the caster angle of the suspension, when you turn the wheel to such an extent the camber angle becomes positive, usually by a lot. so running high amounts of negative front camber counteracts that. at lock the camber angle is somewhere around -2 to 0 degrees. this gives the most amount of front grip possible, like you said in the video. :)
+PeaceDotExe Interesting. Thanks for sharing. Do you think others choose to use less caster and thus less camber to counter this? What's the benefit of more camber rather than less caster?
Pros use less caster but buying the proper suspension components to achieve good suspension geometry is expensive. adding negative camber is much cheaper and looks cooler in my opinion :^)
I don't think that the downforce has anything to do with the reason as to why they chose a more aggressive camber in the front. With most suspension designs/geometries, the camber actually goes more negative as it strokes, so i don't understand why the downforce would create more contract and causing the wheel to be vertical. I believe the camber angle is definitely for more tire contact on steering into a corning combined with specific caster alignments. You can have a perfect alignment for every purpose in racing, but for cornering and track use, a negative camber in front combine with caster is more ideal in my opinion. Straights are minimal
Whichever camber setup you put on your Integra "race car", I'm going to copy it for my "track" Civic because you're smart! :) Camber is tricky to change, and expensive to change, unlike other tuning devices like adjustable swaybars or tyre pressures which you can adjust DIY. It's a bit of pressure to make sure it's set correctly, and then you can forget it. :)
My car has a negative 4.0. Rear camber driver side. Got an alignment on the other three except that one. Rear driver side. The mechanic told me the have to pull the camber. It was in an accident but it was somewhat fixed.
It depends also on the tire width and the configuration of the tire. The Camero has this low figures because it has squared 305 tires, which means you just dont need that much camber, because to much camber has an negative effect like you're telling. In the rear you need traction, so you go for low 1 degree of Camber. But you don't want to imbalance the car, so you don't go that much higher in the front. Tires this wide with more camber are also much more unstable in following lines in the street. But with smaller tires, even higher camber on non aero cars can be better. The whole suspension is dynamic, the turning of the car to the outer side, the wheel goes in, and increases camber automatically. If you now have a high downforce car, like the viper or even F1, you have to stiffen up the suspension. It gets less travel and less dynamic camber increase. And why wait to have the camber if the suspension travels in, when you can get it instantly? There are so many aspects on this theme. Negative Camber has negative points you're right, but in cornering dynamics the optimum is depending on the tyre whidth defenitely above 2°. I run 3,5° in the front and 2° in the rear. It's an massive improvement in cornering speeds, but ok it wears the inside of the tires faster in normal use. I check my tire temperatures after every run in a autocross race, from inside to outside. In this extreme cornering, the temperature ist totally the over the complete tire. In normal use going straight most of the time, of course its hotter in the inner side of the tire. This is very important! For example the fastest track spec street legal M3 E46 around the Nurburgring go for 4 degrees in front and about 2 - 2,5 in the rear, with 265 all around.
+coscorrodrift Most of the best drifters (in Formula D, for instance) are trying to get as much grip as possible with the rules they have because it gives them more control when sliding.
To be fair, I don't think the guys running huge camber in a stance application are too worried about lateral grip and tire life. It's all about how wide with how little offset you can fit under your fender, for mad scene points.
Formula one & NASCAR cars can get away with an extreme level of negative camber not only because of the downforce, but because the tires have huge side profiles that can also deform and flatten a lot better/faster than some of the super skinny tires found on road cars. If you look at LMP cars they generally don't run nearly as much camber because the tires have less side wall and the tires are covered by bodywork.
Touring cars run high camber despite not having the downforce. the S2000's tend to run -4-to-6, the craziest though was the Volvo C30 with -8 at the rear.
I love Engineering Explained. If you want to get a good sense of the how and why of setting camber settings for maximum grip, just head to a reputable autocross group or road racing event. Roughly, you want the most tire rubber contacting the road at maximum lateral acceleration, and camber setting will help achieve this (I'll just say here, camber curves). A simple tire pyrometer will give you just about all the information you need to set camber for maximum grip. Run the car around the track/course, come in and immediately take three measurements across the tire face. The temperatures should be close (ideally you'd want the inner face of the tire to read a bit higher). On my Dodge Neon ACR on DOT soft compound tires, I'd run about 2.25 degrees negative static camber in front, 0.5-0.75 in the rear. Could've used more up front. On my Lotus Europa race car on full racing tires, Hoosier bias plies, we run much less negative camber, about 0.5 degrees front, about 1 degree rear. For the road, on "regular" tires, you won't need/use nearly this much camber, same with rain, snow, etc., set ups. There's just not enough grip there to affect large suspension camber change. I would run the soft compound tires for three seasons on many cars. With small toe settings, tire wear would be "normal". Large toe settings could chew up tires very quickly. None of the cars I've owned/run have required "large" toe settings, either in or out.
No. You don't need THIS on city roads. This is all about posing, it's for show, not for go, or improved car control and handling, or good engineering. As I mention, you don't need even well applied racing set ups for the road. You don't want to be racing on the road. There are the right places to go for this where anyone can go, if they'd like. Stock suspension setups are designed/intended to provide some engineered balance and compromise of low noise, comfortable/easy driving, low tire wear, low harshness and vibration, good fuel economy, and good handling and braking. As you move up the tuning scale to improve performance, this balance is going to change. The further up the scale you go, the bigger the changes from these stock design compromises.
Hi! Could you please explain a little bit further the physical relation between camber and friction coefficient? I have doubts on how they relate thanks Nice videos dude!
Very interesting ! I was also wondering if camber wasn't depending on your suspension geometry and weight as well. Since, if I'm not mistaken, the wheels follow an arc when going up and down, so when you drive fast with a wing that applies a lot of down-force, pushing your car on the road and pressing on the suspension, your camber wont be the same as when you are at rest. So do you change the camber according to the average speed on a track ? Or according to the quantity of fuel ? Thanks, Yak
+Yak Eru depends on weight balance, roll center and cog, drive axles, and track layout, it's dynamic so setting the static camber along with spring and damping and swaybar rates are the ways to keep it in best range for grip and wear with loads.
Can you please explain how Oil Catch can works??? I know I asked before but the content on Oil Catch cans is poor on youtube and elsewhere. Hope you can clear it up for us. Thanks
+Jon Stallard I can't speak for all the teams but I visited with Vaughn Gittin Jr and he wasn't running much in the front or rear. Visibly you couldn't really tell. I did not ask about caster/toe.
+Engineering Explained From what i remember my brother was running -7° of camber up front for his s14. I dont remember the other measurements so I really dont know how much that was put into play. But it was the whole shabang. Toe, Camber, Caster. He also had an angle kit! But his set up was for drifting. The funny thing is he got his measurements from tuning in forza! And he did pretty good for having a stock motor and welded drift.
what about road legal semi slick tyres such as the Toyo R888? Toyo's downloadable setup guide for a miata suggests starting with -2.5 to -3.0deg and to expect a higher inside shoulder temp by 25degF because of it. are you suggesting that a miata would not have the lateral grip to make use of this kind of camber setting? or do the rules change with semi-slick tyres?
+engineering explained Would love to know the camber on the mclaren 720s because one of the engineers said one of the most difficult challenges they had in increasing the performance over the 650s and 675lt was working on the suspension geometry to maintain an optimum contact patch so it would be interesting to find out what they did :)
I always look at these cars that clearly couldn't handle a track day (driver included) and have the urge to ask, "Yeah I see the decals, stance, and tint, and I can hear the exhaust, surprisingly over the music/trunk rattling. But, what does it do?"
dude this is really off topic. but I think you need to make a video and a live car test to prove that cars that suppose to use 93 octane but ppl instead put 89, some are crazier and use 87, would a car break down? maybe not start? this would be gladly appreciated and fun.
Glad you decided to do a video on this - a whole package about what good camber actually is. I hope the stancenation guys and their buy-in "lifestyle" disappear soon.
+Ryan Roberts you say this until the day comes that some moron in his broken control arm-esque Civic crashes into you because he had no tire on the road.
+Armaan R that's no different than someone crashing into you becaus their track car has worn out parts. Poorly installed or dammaged parts are no different weather your a stance guy or a track enthusiast. Plus at least that civic doesn't have enough power to hit you at speed
+Armaan R I misread your comment but still think it's irrelevant since beater stance civics your referring to are driving slow avoiding potholes not time attacking the through traffic
If you change suspension components or adjust spring rate, ride height, or damper strength will the camber angle change? What are the normal parameters for a racing car vs a tuned production car.
Does a fwd car benefit more with camber in the front or in the rear? i've seen the spoons EK9 and it looks like there is more camber in the rear than in the front
+jean lessage more negative camber in front, less negative in rear but also depends on specific geometries and designs, along with roll center and cog. Typically macpherson strut up front and multilink in back for packaging and cost. Macpherson loses neg camber through compression, multilink gains or maintains neg camber. Depends how much understeer you want, and how much that affects wear vs other mods like sway bars and spring rates and scrub radius issues.
Can I know the source for your statement that the Viper ACR has the highest production downforce? I'm just really surprised and curious, and I wasn't able to find the source
+R Thuma I could be wrong here, but I think they get away with that statement using a narrow definition of "production car". Its a fairly common practice in marketing.
@EngineeringExplained What about rally cars? Would they use high level of camber since they are going fast and taking aggressive corner or is it not required ?
+GabLam0 The g-forces aren't necessarily that high since surface conditions do not allow for it. Traction for acceleration is critical. When I was with Subaru's team I didn't notice much camber on the vehicle, though I don't have specific numbers.
For average street driving in my 2013 BMW 650i (w/M Sports package), I am experiencing excessive inside rear tire wear (excessive negative camber). Do you recommend a specific DIY adjustable camber kit install so my tires last longer (third set in 18,000 miles), therefore wear evenly?
+purplehazenilsp This is why camber is useful (though I state it in this video as well). ua-cam.com/video/-VFlqPE1gBw/v-deo.html Lots of caster can have negative impacts on the camber angle when the wheel is turned.
would it be beneficial for nascar cars on oval races to have different camber settings between left and right? since they only turn left the negative camber on the left wheels works the other way around and therefore reduces grip on the left wheels (during fast left cornering) or doesn't it?
+axon magnus coscorrodrift 51 minutes ago So for drift cars it is actually useful right? As it makes your car lose lateral grip. Reply · 1 Engineering Explained 39 minutes ago +coscorrodrift If your goal is to lose grip, then sure. But that makes your car slower. To do it properly you'd want more power rather than less grip.
+axon magnus Check out some professional drifters cars, like the cars from Formula D. They don't run that much negative camber. Most of the champions (Gittin Jr, Saito, Forsberg) run so little camber it's barely noticeable.
+Roger J if your goal is to loose grip I.E. drifting it can be achieved in many ways. over powering force to the tires through shit loads of power in torque bet through building the engine and/or gearing. harder compound rubber. weight reduction. just to name a few. usually all those of course. and still have a proper amount of camber to maintain grip when needed, aka when not executing a controlled slide. and those extreme angle the front wheels have on drift built cars isn't camber...... it's toe....and even that much isn't really needed tbh unless drifting at damn near 90 degree angles is your thing.
+wizz3r1o1 drift cars are actually looking for high mechanical grip levels, essentially to exploit the edge at higher speeds, from what i understand. i don't think it's a lot of toe either, just much more steering angle built in.
So do you know how much faster a tire will wear depending on camber angle? Maybe an idea for a video and i'd like to know before I buy a miata and slam it. (Doing it right and not too much stance)
+Ty U. It depends on so many things. If you drive it casually, it will simply wear unevenly. If you drive it hard, the smaller contact patch will heat faster, and degradation will occur much quicker when it's heated.
Engineering Explained I mostly drive casually, no tracks or autocrossing in my area. I just wondered about the number according to certain conditions. Like what percentage tire wear will actually increase, how much more often will you need to replace, etc.
+wilsongoalie1 Because the steering does reduce the actual camber angle a bit. If it would be possible to have a steering lock angle of 90° on the fronttyres, the camber would always be zero when you go to full lock.
+wilsongoalie1 to aid in rotation of the rear and grip of the front. differences are due to dynamic weight transfer issues within the chassis and suspension designs. Braking into a corner causes dive in front and lift in rear, out of a corner causes squat in rear and lift in front. combine that with cornering forces acting on the suspension arms, and weight balance of the chassis and different specific settings become more effective depending on the layout, ie fwd vs rear-engine rwd.
bmw z4 3.0 deg neg camber rear stock from the factory....that's with bars run all the way out, so I could dial even more neg camber in.......tires in road use last a whopping 8k miles....
What about pro drifters(FD Pros), how much negative camber do they since they are trying to get maximum grip. I know that when they are sideways the cars gain positive camber right?
+Linkcms2town On the front as the wheels turn the leading wheel gains positive camber, you want to have the lead tyre flat while you are drifting so you have the most grip, the rear you want to have the both tyre's as flat as you can get them while in drift so people tend to run almost no rear camber, some even run slight positive camber so when the car squats down it sits flat.
Balance between under/oversteer doesn't depend only by camber values, spring rates, sway bars, suspension design and tyres are way more important, correct tyre temperatures and pressures are fundamental, with camber and toe you're able to make them as stable as possible, without too much difference between Inside and outside edge, wrong spring rates or wrong coilovers/sway bar setup affects your tyre temperatures, keep always an eye on them and change things consequently.
Nice video but you didn't explain why a 1997 Honda Civic needs 40 degrees of camber for the kfc drive through.
+ahmed shamsi Protects your side mirror from getting hit with the safety pole near the window. Wheels will push you out of the way.
+ahmed shamsi because #stancenation and #hellaflush LOL
+ahmed shamsi They have super awesome effective wings that produce so much downforce that they need so much camber :D
LOL
+ahmed shamsi
Because it protects the expensive rims from all the curbs the terribly inexperienced driver will inevitably hit.
no dislikes and 250 likes. Camber Jesus has spoken.
+Cheezus 296-0 atm.
+Cheezus Don't worry, they're out there. They have a very particular set of skills. They will find me. And they will dislike me.
+Engineering Explained kinda like t
Taken, huh?
+Cheezus Stance kids haven't found the video yet.. lol.
+frankth3frizz 3 stance kids have now found the video.
For club racing with BMW spec E30/E36 (and others), we usually run a little more camber up front (around -3 to -3.5 camber).
Worthy of mentioning that it is possible to get more cornering forces out of tyres even when running more camber than would be optimal for contact patch size. The camber thrust effect can on suitable tyres give you more cornering grip when running very high amounts of camber even when the pressure distribution is unequal and you're not using all of the contact patch. Talking to a former racer and race car builder (currently developing simulators) he said that for maximum cornering power they could run past -4 degrees, and would have gotten even more cornering performance with more camber, but due to diminishing returns and extremely rapid tyre wear it wasn't a sensible option.
So you might see sprint race cars with more camber than endurance race cars, and qualifying setups with more camber than race setups. For example Michelin recommended Porsche Supercup cars -4.5 degrees of camber and a 20 degrees Celsius temperature delta between inside and outside of the tyre as a starting point, compared to -3.5 degrees that McLaren used as the baseline setup for their 12C GT3 race car intended more for longer races.
that moment when you already know what Jason is talking about!!! thanks a lot man for all the help through out the years. keep going.
I always laugh at those stanced cars with extreme camber. Those cars are completely undriveable and it ruins perfectly good cars.
Also, my dad was a mechanical engineer too.
+GalvatronTypeR Do you want a medal bro
+kkthxk Lol
+kkthxk then youll have these fucks say "while its their car they can do what they want" you dont mod a car just so it looks good to you. you mod it so you get some looks (good looks)
+kkthxk they make alot of money from their sponsorships depending how popular they are.
My bicycle has -3 camber.
+drink15 Probably max your getting while moving.
+drink15 actually, your bike has variable camber.
"Bottom out over a Pop-Tart"
Hahaa, I watched that review from Mr regular yesterday
+Franky Leandri My car is best car because... STANCE NATIOOOON!
+Franky Leandri YAH BROH, MY CAR'S SO LOW I CAN'T USE IT.
+Eggly Bagelface GG
Franky Leandri o
Camber doesn't affect the friction coefficient, only the transmitted net force.
Friction is largely independent from surface area, ideal camber helps grip by means of negating tire/tread flex, creating ideal pressure distribution and minimizing tire rub off. Not by increasing coefficients.
I love this channel! I always learn something new 😀
Wow this was really informative, I never expected performance cars added more camber or that their was a strategic advantage to adding some because the wheel would straighten up a little on a turn and that makes a lot of sense. Now I understand why master tuners can make garbage cars into track stars on forza. I have to start messing with camber now.
+Ryan Spalding the wheel don't straighten, the tire rolls over less. but dynamic camber changes due to suspension design and roll center issues with weight balance are where the differences for handling come into play.
I had a chance to speak with a european hillclimb champion he told me that -5° is fairly usual on a racing spec M3 E36.
Interesting to see such a big deviation between various racecar classes.
depends on suspension design . most Macpherson strut cars love more camber up front
to relate to this video.. could you tell why tire stretch is bad? when excessive.
+LurkerDanny Absolutely, coming soon!
+Engineering Explained thanks much! looking forward to it.
I rebuilt the suspension in my Australian built 2002 Holden VY SS Commodore back in 2012,it is FE2 specd from the factory (1 1/4 inches or 30mm) lower than standard height suspension.
I fitted the springs for the Holden Monaro coupe (aka 2002 GTO Pontiac) into it,they are 30mm standard rate King Springs,all of the shock absorbers & bushes have been replaced by me.
Now, the standard negative camber adjustment for a standard Commodore is 0° 30 minutes & 0° 48 minutes for the FE2 suspension setup both front & rear.
My point is the left hand front is set at 1° 43 minutes of negative camber & the right hand front is set at 50 minutes of negative camber.
Both the rear tyres are set at about 2° 20 minutes of negative camber, the rear camber isn't adjustable.
The left hand rear tyres used to scrub out the inside part of the tread on until I rebushed the rear,the inner rear control arm bushes were made of nylon,the offending bush was on the left hand control arm,it was distorted (pushed out of shape),the bushes are all urethane ones now.
Ever since rebuilding the suspension & getting a wheel alignment done, the tyres haven't scrubbed out on the car,they wear flat & evenly,they have lasted about 20,000 kilometres whereas they used to last about 6,000 kilometres !
hopefully this slows down the stance-nation movement
+ChronicConnoisseur the problem isn't the knowledge, it's the self control.
+ChronicConnoisseur you really think they do it because they're oblivious to it? nah, they cant drive so why have a driveable car
+ChronicConnoisseur They take pride in form over function, so probably not
4 years later and i see more and more cars with -10 camber lol.. tbh im trying to figure out how much performance benefits ill have to sacrifice with -3 to -4 in the rear because looking "cool" is still fun
Isaac Santos Who knows. I like the wide tire aesthetic better though. I can withstand that.
I'm curious why you didn't talk about MacPherson strut cars. All the cars you mentioned have sophisticated front suspensions that add negative camber under suspension compression. They don't need a high static camber cause the suspension adds (and removes) it dynamically. MacPherson strut cars can perform very well with camber's at -2.0 and more because the suspension design doesn't add negative camber under compression.
+George Davidson It will always depend on the suspension set up, regardless of the type. Simply changing the control arm lengths can have a huge impact. Then there's angles, pivot points, etc. There's never going to be a one size fits all for this kind of thing.
with mcpherson you have to look at the lower arm, if the mounting on the car is higher than the mounting on the wheel hub then you have increased negative camber on bump right until the arm goes over the parallel line and over the 90° angle with the strut steering axis.
rake angles pls!
i find it weird that some cars are set up with posetive rake, like some old cars and honda s2000s
stock rx7 fc3s seems to be raked imo
at one stage Australian touring cars were running up to -6 degrees camber
their wheels were conical as well, thus nullifying the camber. Australians are weird
I live in Thailand, where the national pastime has long been to drive like a maniac, whether in a car, truck, van, bus, or on a motorbike or motorcycle. Extreme negative camber seems to be the latest fad here among sedan drivers, no matter how under-powered the car or over-crowded the roads (not to mention the frequent rain). Just when I thought driving here couldn't get anymore dangerous.
I'd like to see a video explaining drift suspension and alignment, unless you've already done one?
Once again great information!
How would one calculate their ideal camber settings? I know this is likely dependent on tire compound, and pressure (as well as sidewall stiffness). I have -1.7° in my 2005 STi that I use for autocross, and I find that I still roll the tire over past the "wear triangles" on the side. I know a lot of my opponents run -3.0° or even -3.5° (front), and they're not rolling over their tire, but I'm not sure if they're actually getting benefit in grip from running so much. It'd also be cool to see how much grip their losing in breaking zones with these amounts. According to your video their camber settings seem extreme even for the track. (I'm talking about subarus only).
+Benjamin Spatafora Probably would be easier to test rather than calculate. You'd have to try it at various settings and see how that affects lateral load, ideally with a nice open space and similar conditions for each test.
Yeah, your probably right. There would be a lot of unknowns to calculate it. That would be an advantage of camber plates. Would you say rolling past the triangles on the edge of the tire is bad for grip (or just bad for wear, this is my assumption). Thanks for the response!
i run -6.5 front camber on my drift car so theres as much contact patch as possible when the leading wheel is at full lock while drifting.
+PeaceDotExe If the leading wheel is at full lock, isn't it pointed the direction the car is traveling? How much benefit does negative camber provide in this situation, or what is the camber when the wheel's at full lock?
correct, the leading wheel is pointed in the direction of travel. because of the caster angle of the suspension, when you turn the wheel to such an extent the camber angle becomes positive, usually by a lot. so running high amounts of negative front camber counteracts that. at lock the camber angle is somewhere around -2 to 0 degrees. this gives the most amount of front grip possible, like you said in the video. :)
+PeaceDotExe Interesting. Thanks for sharing. Do you think others choose to use less caster and thus less camber to counter this? What's the benefit of more camber rather than less caster?
Pros use less caster but buying the proper suspension components to achieve good suspension geometry is expensive. adding negative camber is much cheaper and looks cooler in my opinion :^)
+PeaceDotExe lets be real here. you just do it for the looks. youre no pro drifter
very awesome video man!
I don't think that the downforce has anything to do with the reason as to why they chose a more aggressive camber in the front. With most suspension designs/geometries, the camber actually goes more negative as it strokes, so i don't understand why the downforce would create more contract and causing the wheel to be vertical. I believe the camber angle is definitely for more tire contact on steering into a corning combined with specific caster alignments. You can have a perfect alignment for every purpose in racing, but for cornering and track use, a negative camber in front combine with caster is more ideal in my opinion. Straights are minimal
you can't* have
Whichever camber setup you put on your Integra "race car", I'm going to copy it for my "track" Civic because you're smart! :) Camber is tricky to change, and expensive to change, unlike other tuning devices like adjustable swaybars or tyre pressures which you can adjust DIY. It's a bit of pressure to make sure it's set correctly, and then you can forget it. :)
stancenation bro
Thanks Jason
How do you know it is over the peak grip because of too much neg camber? higher inner temperature?
+hsieh811 You'd have to run testing.
Good stuff Jason, also Big thumbs up on the resolution, finally i can watch your grey hair in my native 1440p :-))
My car has a negative 4.0. Rear camber driver side. Got an alignment on the other three except that one. Rear driver side. The mechanic told me the have to pull the camber. It was in an accident but it was somewhat fixed.
It depends also on the tire width and the configuration of the tire. The Camero has this low figures because it has squared 305 tires, which means you just dont need that much camber, because to much camber has an negative effect like you're telling. In the rear you need traction, so you go for low 1 degree of Camber. But you don't want to imbalance the car, so you don't go that much higher in the front. Tires this wide with more camber are also much more unstable in following lines in the street. But with smaller tires, even higher camber on non aero cars can be better. The whole suspension is dynamic, the turning of the car to the outer side, the wheel goes in, and increases camber automatically. If you now have a high downforce car, like the viper or even F1, you have to stiffen up the suspension. It gets less travel and less dynamic camber increase. And why wait to have the camber if the suspension travels in, when you can get it instantly? There are so many aspects on this theme. Negative Camber has negative points you're right, but in cornering dynamics the optimum is depending on the tyre whidth defenitely above 2°. I run 3,5° in the front and 2° in the rear. It's an massive improvement in cornering speeds, but ok it wears the inside of the tires faster in normal use. I check my tire temperatures after every run in a autocross race, from inside to outside. In this extreme cornering, the temperature ist totally the over the complete tire. In normal use going straight most of the time, of course its hotter in the inner side of the tire. This is very important! For example the fastest track spec street legal M3 E46 around the Nurburgring go for 4 degrees in front and about 2 - 2,5 in the rear, with 265 all around.
So for drift cars it is actually useful right? As it makes your car lose lateral grip.
+coscorrodrift If your goal is to lose grip, then sure. But that makes your car slower. To do it properly you'd want more power rather than less grip.
+coscorrodrift Most of the best drifters (in Formula D, for instance) are trying to get as much grip as possible with the rules they have because it gives them more control when sliding.
Engineering Explained Hmmm, makes sense. You should make a video regarding drifting, if you haven't already!
+coscorrodrift He has done one one formula D
+coscorrodrift the formula 1 camber setup is pretty good for drifting i find
Excellent vid
To be fair, I don't think the guys running huge camber in a stance application are too worried about lateral grip and tire life. It's all about how wide with how little offset you can fit under your fender, for mad scene points.
If you look at the cars built for the British Touring Car series, they seem to be running 10 or 15 degrees of negative camber.
Formula one & NASCAR cars can get away with an extreme level of negative camber not only because of the downforce, but because the tires have huge side profiles that can also deform and flatten a lot better/faster than some of the super skinny tires found on road cars. If you look at LMP cars they generally don't run nearly as much camber because the tires have less side wall and the tires are covered by bodywork.
Touring cars run high camber despite not having the downforce. the S2000's tend to run -4-to-6, the craziest though was the Volvo C30 with -8 at the rear.
MPV's have a lot of camber as well, probably due to their weight when fully loaded.
I love Engineering Explained. If you want to get a good sense of the how and why of setting camber settings for maximum grip, just head to a reputable autocross group or road racing event. Roughly, you want the most tire rubber contacting the road at maximum lateral acceleration, and camber setting will help achieve this (I'll just say here, camber curves). A simple tire pyrometer will give you just about all the information you need to set camber for maximum grip. Run the car around the track/course, come in and immediately take three measurements across the tire face. The temperatures should be close (ideally you'd want the inner face of the tire to read a bit higher). On my Dodge Neon ACR on DOT soft compound tires, I'd run about 2.25 degrees negative static camber in front, 0.5-0.75 in the rear. Could've used more up front. On my Lotus Europa race car on full racing tires, Hoosier bias plies, we run much less negative camber, about 0.5 degrees front, about 1 degree rear. For the road, on "regular" tires, you won't need/use nearly this much camber, same with rain, snow, etc., set ups. There's just not enough grip there to affect large suspension camber change. I would run the soft compound tires for three seasons on many cars. With small toe settings, tire wear would be "normal". Large toe settings could chew up tires very quickly. None of the cars I've owned/run have required "large" toe settings, either in or out.
so your telling me you need this on city roads...
No. You don't need THIS on city roads. This is all about posing, it's for show, not for go, or improved car control and handling, or good engineering. As I mention, you don't need even well applied racing set ups for the road. You don't want to be racing on the road. There are the right places to go for this where anyone can go, if they'd like. Stock suspension setups are designed/intended to provide some engineered balance and compromise of low noise, comfortable/easy driving, low tire wear, low harshness and vibration, good fuel economy, and good handling and braking. As you move up the tuning scale to improve performance, this balance is going to change. The further up the scale you go, the bigger the changes from these stock design compromises.
1/2 positive cam on d21........turns easy.....coasts good in nuetral....
Hi! Could you please explain a little bit further the physical relation between camber and friction coefficient? I have doubts on how they relate thanks
Nice videos dude!
Have you done something on caster?
I saw a car with 90 degrees positive camber one time...after it drifted into a curb that is lol
My Model T race car loves it some positive camber.
Are you still going to build the integra ? I really want to see that
Very interesting ! I was also wondering if camber wasn't depending on your suspension geometry and weight as well. Since, if I'm not mistaken, the wheels follow an arc when going up and down, so when you drive fast with a wing that applies a lot of down-force, pushing your car on the road and pressing on the suspension, your camber wont be the same as when you are at rest. So do you change the camber according to the average speed on a track ? Or according to the quantity of fuel ? Thanks, Yak
+Yak Eru depends on weight balance, roll center and cog, drive axles, and track layout, it's dynamic so setting the static camber along with spring and damping and swaybar rates are the ways to keep it in best range for grip and wear with loads.
what about tire width how does that affect things
+MaurizioGarzia Plays a large role, though challenging to understand: ua-cam.com/video/kNa2gZNqmT8/v-deo.html
Can you please explain how Oil Catch can works??? I know I asked before but the content on Oil Catch cans is poor on youtube and elsewhere. Hope you can clear it up for us. Thanks
What about Formula Drift camber, caster, and toe?
That would be a fantastic episode!
+Jon Stallard I can't speak for all the teams but I visited with Vaughn Gittin Jr and he wasn't running much in the front or rear. Visibly you couldn't really tell. I did not ask about caster/toe.
+Engineering Explained From what i remember my brother was running -7° of camber up front for his s14. I dont remember the other measurements so I really dont know how much that was put into play. But it was the whole shabang. Toe, Camber, Caster. He also had an angle kit! But his set up was for drifting. The funny thing is he got his measurements from tuning in forza! And he did pretty good for having a stock motor and welded drift.
what about road legal semi slick tyres such as the Toyo R888? Toyo's downloadable setup guide for a miata suggests starting with -2.5 to -3.0deg and to expect a higher inside shoulder temp by 25degF because of it. are you suggesting that a miata would not have the lateral grip to make use of this kind of camber setting? or do the rules change with semi-slick tyres?
Great ! So, basically, in what consists wheel alignment ?
+engineering explained Would love to know the camber on the mclaren 720s because one of the engineers said one of the most difficult challenges they had in increasing the performance over the 650s and 675lt was working on the suspension geometry to maintain an optimum contact patch so it would be interesting to find out what they did :)
But which negative camber is best for stance Jason? :P ;)
I always look at these cars that clearly couldn't handle a track day (driver included) and have the urge to ask, "Yeah I see the decals, stance, and tint, and I can hear the exhaust, surprisingly over the music/trunk rattling. But, what does it do?"
dude this is really off topic. but I think you need to make a video and a live car test to prove that cars that suppose to use 93 octane but ppl instead put 89, some are crazier and use 87, would a car break down? maybe not start? this would be gladly appreciated and fun.
What type of tire are these numbers based off of? What circuit? These seem really conservative to what I see posted on track forums...
Is there anyway to calculate the area that will be in touch with the ground, for a given camber and load?
Challenge accepted! *Starts working on a wheel and tyre made for 70 degrees of camber for ultimate silliness.*
Glad you decided to do a video on this - a whole package about what good camber actually is.
I hope the stancenation guys and their buy-in "lifestyle" disappear soon.
Yea if you don't like it it shouldn't exist. Your opinion is more important than theirs
+Ryan Roberts you say this until the day comes that some moron in his broken control arm-esque Civic crashes into you because he had no tire on the road.
+Armaan R that's no different than someone crashing into you becaus their track car has worn out parts. Poorly installed or dammaged parts are no different weather your a stance guy or a track enthusiast. Plus at least that civic doesn't have enough power to hit you at speed
+Ryan Roberts A car with excessive negative camber is unsafe no matter the condition of the parts, as shown by the reduction in the available grip.
+Armaan R I misread your comment but still think it's irrelevant since beater stance civics your referring to are driving slow avoiding potholes not time attacking the through traffic
how would you go about measuring your tires friction coefficient?
seems like tire depth/sidewall height should factor in somehow. taller sidewalls are gunna flex more, no?
I would like to see the viper video..... now, please.
+Kuba e Well since you asked so nicely... ua-cam.com/video/6sqVPrwD_K4/v-deo.html
+Engineering Explained you are too cool, thank You.
when happen when have 50% worn tyres with negative camber, loose a little camber improvement?
Stance Nation.
Will toe out be better for negative camber?
Does Ackerman angle, or in the case of F1, reverse Ackerman, play a role with front camber angle choices?
wonder how a rally car compares, actually just googled it and they have about 1 degree in back and less in front. great video though
If you change suspension components or adjust spring rate, ride height, or damper strength will the camber angle change? What are the normal parameters for a racing car vs a tuned production car.
what are the benefits for positive camber
i dont think people who are dumb enough to negative that much are watching this video. but thanks for the information!
Does a fwd car benefit more with camber in the front or in the rear? i've seen the spoons EK9 and it looks like there is more camber in the rear than in the front
+jean lessage more negative camber in front, less negative in rear but also depends on specific geometries and designs, along with roll center and cog. Typically macpherson strut up front and multilink in back for packaging and cost. Macpherson loses neg camber through compression, multilink gains or maintains neg camber. Depends how much understeer you want, and how much that affects wear vs other mods like sway bars and spring rates and scrub radius issues.
How much negative camber should I set in for my little trackday car? It's a Citroen saxo with only 60hp but no wings yet
What is your opinion on stance?
+xtravisxmanx It's your car do whatever. I personally think it's stupid but that's my opinion.
+xtravisxmanx dumb fashion trend done with cheap thoughts.
Can I know the source for your statement that the Viper ACR has the highest production downforce? I'm just really surprised and curious, and I wasn't able to find the source
+Adhithya Srinivasan FCA's press kit for the ACR: media.fcanorthamerica.com/newsrelease.do?&id=16546&mid=
+Engineering Explained What about cars like the Radical SR8 for example with 900kg (1984lb) of downforce? that's a road legal car.
+R Thuma I could be wrong here, but I think they get away with that statement using a narrow definition of "production car". Its a fairly common practice in marketing.
i noticed that they all have more rear camber than the front exepet the gtr does this have to do with driveterrain and why more front than rear?
What angle do you think would cause just one tire to squeal when hard cornering? I want to say Camber but I fear the toe may be my issue.
What would be the best negative camber angle for 2010 Mustang gt?
whichever one keeps you from running over spectators after cars n coffee.
@EngineeringExplained What about rally cars? Would they use high level of camber since they are going fast and taking aggressive corner or is it not required ?
+GabLam0 The g-forces aren't necessarily that high since surface conditions do not allow for it. Traction for acceleration is critical. When I was with Subaru's team I didn't notice much camber on the vehicle, though I don't have specific numbers.
For average street driving in my 2013 BMW 650i (w/M Sports package), I am experiencing excessive inside rear tire wear (excessive negative camber). Do you recommend a specific DIY adjustable camber kit install so my tires last longer (third set in 18,000 miles), therefore wear evenly?
Camber Gang all Day!
Can you make some examples for FWD cars please
Please explain:
Why is camber used at all? Why not just use lots of caster?
+purplehazenilsp This is why camber is useful (though I state it in this video as well). ua-cam.com/video/-VFlqPE1gBw/v-deo.html Lots of caster can have negative impacts on the camber angle when the wheel is turned.
would it be beneficial for nascar cars on oval races to have different camber settings between left and right? since they only turn left the negative camber on the left wheels works the other way around and therefore reduces grip on the left wheels (during fast left cornering) or doesn't it?
Great video thx for the info
what about drifting setup ?
you have never done a drifting setup before it about time myu good sir :)
+axon magnus
coscorrodrift 51 minutes ago
So for drift cars it is actually useful right? As it makes your car lose lateral grip.
Reply · 1
Engineering Explained 39 minutes ago
+coscorrodrift If your goal is to lose grip, then sure. But that makes your car slower. To do it properly you'd want more power rather than less grip.
+axon magnus Check out some professional drifters cars, like the cars from Formula D.
They don't run that much negative camber. Most of the champions (Gittin Jr, Saito, Forsberg) run so little camber it's barely noticeable.
+Roger J if your goal is to loose grip I.E. drifting it can be achieved in many ways. over powering force to the tires through shit loads of power in torque bet through building the engine and/or gearing. harder compound rubber. weight reduction. just to name a few. usually all those of course. and still have a proper amount of camber to maintain grip when needed, aka when not executing a controlled slide. and those extreme angle the front wheels have on drift built cars isn't camber...... it's toe....and even that much isn't really needed tbh unless drifting at damn near 90 degree angles is your thing.
+Cetifiably Snuggly Ryan Tuerck mentioned his camber set up's and while the rears are usually only a degree or so the fronts can be up to -5 degrees.
+wizz3r1o1 drift cars are actually looking for high mechanical grip levels, essentially to exploit the edge at higher speeds, from what i understand. i don't think it's a lot of toe either, just much more steering angle built in.
So do you know how much faster a tire will wear depending on camber angle? Maybe an idea for a video and i'd like to know before I buy a miata and slam it. (Doing it right and not too much stance)
+Ty U. It depends on so many things. If you drive it casually, it will simply wear unevenly. If you drive it hard, the smaller contact patch will heat faster, and degradation will occur much quicker when it's heated.
+Ty U. just drive at max slip angle in circles and you'll be fine.
Engineering Explained I mostly drive casually, no tracks or autocrossing in my area. I just wondered about the number according to certain conditions. Like what percentage tire wear will actually increase, how much more often will you need to replace, etc.
Im running about -3 camber all around on my G.
acr can corrner at >1G? Can it drive on walls?
I'll use this guide to adjust camber on my motorcycle
+o3tomas You want loads of negative. Super slanted. Turns great one way.
Why does the front have more negative camber than the rears?
+wilsongoalie1 because going into corners you tend to put more weight onto the front, so more camber is required there.
+wilsongoalie1 Because the steering does reduce the actual camber angle a bit. If it would be possible to have a steering lock angle of 90° on the fronttyres, the camber would always be zero when you go to full lock.
Because the axis that the front wheels pivot on is not perfectly vertical. Take a look at the caster angle.
+wilsongoalie1 to aid in rotation of the rear and grip of the front. differences are due to dynamic weight transfer issues within the chassis and suspension designs. Braking into a corner causes dive in front and lift in rear, out of a corner causes squat in rear and lift in front. combine that with cornering forces acting on the suspension arms, and weight balance of the chassis and different specific settings become more effective depending on the layout, ie fwd vs rear-engine rwd.
Let's say i have the telemetry of a race car. What values should i check to understand if the camber is set correctly?
which camber angle will be best using in ATV vehicle?why?
Nice
Is this the same for snowboards? Mathematically
bmw z4 3.0 deg neg camber rear stock from the factory....that's with bars run all the way out, so I could dial even more neg camber in.......tires in road use last a whopping 8k miles....
if you could bash on these stance wings and drop some knowledge on them thatd be greeeat
Are you an engineer or a mechanic?
+Philip Grundemar My degree is in mechanical engineering.
What about pro drifters(FD Pros), how much negative camber do they since they are trying to get maximum grip. I know that when they are sideways the cars gain positive camber right?
+Linkcms2town On the front as the wheels turn the leading wheel gains positive camber, you want to have the lead tyre flat while you are drifting so you have the most grip, the rear you want to have the both tyre's as flat as you can get them while in drift so people tend to run almost no rear camber, some even run slight positive camber so when the car squats down it sits flat.
i run -2.5 camber but understeer a lot on corners. could i be just over-driving? SCCA guys in my area uses -3.0 and clocks faster than I am
Balance between under/oversteer doesn't depend only by camber values, spring rates, sway bars, suspension design and tyres are way more important, correct tyre temperatures and pressures are fundamental, with camber and toe you're able to make them as stable as possible, without too much difference between Inside and outside edge, wrong spring rates or wrong coilovers/sway bar setup affects your tyre temperatures, keep always an eye on them and change things consequently.