I would have added when racing on a budget i would adjust my chamber to achieve the best tire wear which is a good indicator of proper camber /tire pressures
You will not necessarily get proper/even wear with ideal camber settings for track driving, although it depends what kind of driving. I find professional drift cars are the fastest with quite even tire wear running POSITIVE camber in the rear despite negative camber in the rear being theoretically faster. It still doesn't make complete sense to me because elastokinematic camber loss would mean the rear tires are something like +1 degrees in cornering, but it is what it is. Many times I find the inside ends up a bit more hot/more worn with ideal settings. Pressure is maybe a bit more indicative and correlated with wear, but pressure is quite dynamic and will depend on your camber and loads in transient so it's always a compromise between modes.
Some of the best and informative videos on Utube. Congratulations and please continue. Would love to see the car being shaken down on a circuit. Kind regards
Definitely a go to channel when it comes to information on racing...car setup how to do with enough info to help one understand the reason behind doing it
The tire temps will tell you what camber the car likes and wants!! The temp gun doesn’t lie !! Same is true for the caster as the both go hand in hand !!
At 14:30 you said you were going to give one full turn but only went 1/2 turn. Excellent videos by the way. I have learned a lot and applied it to my 1968 sports car. Used for spirited mountain driving.
Really appreciate your informative and well presented videos Steve. Would be interested in your discussion of the physics and effect on driving of unsprung weight - rims, tyres and brakes etc.
A few tidbits: Positive camber in the front of old cars was mostly due to the design limitations of the knuckle forcing them to adapt a highly positive scrub radius. To minimize this the wheel can be aligned to positive camber in the design which will bring scrub radius closer to 0, lessening steering torque peaks during braking and lessening average steering torque. Many more modern cars do also align slight positive in the front for stability, though. Adjusting the camber from the rod end closest to the push/pullrod can potentially cause a change in ride height as it will deflect the rocker, so bear that in mind. Adjusting camber from the opposite end can minimize it, as the rod should deflect less. I also suggest adjusting the inboard thread as well as the outboard. Bear in mind that adjusting the more lateral arm's length is primarily a camber change, and adjusting the more trailing arm's length is primarily a caster change. You can also adjust rear bumpsteer and wheelbase with the trailing arms on many older Formula type designs.
Hello good sir. Not sure how I stumbled upon this channel but thank you for all the set up info. I’ve been into racing a long time and the style of videos really breaks down the whys and how. I should mention I’m a suspension expert by trade.
Thank you William, I am sure that you have the expertise and knowledge to enlighten us on the secrets of alignment ... as there is so much to it... pro's like you are very welcome to correct and advice me.... Much appreciated
@@williamhall7165 I have the experience from years of setting-up my own single seat race cars, and I know right from wrong, and so should you. Did you not see that obvious error?
@@rickden8362 I seen several. But I also know a mistake is easy. I race stock cars. Not single seaters. But I also don’t see any videos you put out for the world to see. I do see many of this gentleman. And he has the bravado to post them and listen to the critic of inexperienced idiots that think just because they seen a video on a subject they are now a master technician. I have certification from Chevy ford and ASE YOU?
Laser unit awesome plus maybe mention measuring the garage floor with it first. Many folks have sloping floors, water runoff or constructor didn't bother, whatever. It's easy for folks to assume the floor is level just by looks. My garage floor's sloped so needed zeroing with stands similar to yours. As caster can effect camber, striking vertical a center line down the vehicle allows pre-setting of the suspension body points to symmetry. this symmetry means the estimated geometry during travel is actual.
@@D3Sshooter yeah I felt rather stupid seeing you'd already posted leveling the vehicle in another vid. The center line marking still worthwhile. I've found several car's I've worked on out of shape using a centre line datum. Keep up the good work.
this channel is so valuable, absolutely beautifully presented and many details I’ve seen guys measuring the tire temperature that varies from outside to inside. On my last track day I measured 55 on the outside and 57 on the inside like 5 min after stopping the car (phone usb thermal camera takes time to start :) so I guess I need a bit more negative camber. Right now it looks 0 degrees but didn’t measure anything. So depending on the track I understand you can adjust it to give you the best grip based on the tire temperature?!
Indeed, during the test rides on the track the tires warm up , depending the track the inner , middle or outer part of the tire will be or less warm... I always take the average of all 3 area's , if each area is within a 10-20% tolerance to the average then the camber should be OK.... In your case that is IMO `ok' as the difference is minimal... Much depends on the track type, did you have many corners and if so then I would say that you could at -0.5 degrees of camber...
SQUARING the BOX and TRACKING STRAIGHT Squaring the Box: IMO, unless you square the box you can never be sure your measurements are correct and the car is tracking straight, and not tracking straight kills setup and straight line speed. Squaring the box is done by removing the car from between the strings then measuring the cross diagonals(front left to right rear/front right to left rear) and adjust the strings till the diagonals are equal. Think about it, if the strings are parallel but in a parallelogram, they will not be parallel to the tires. Tracking Straight: How do you know the car is tracking straight, i.e...everything is pointed straight where it should. Some people think setting the rod ends equal on both sides will do it and sometimes it will and sometimes it won't, particularly with old/repaired/modified cars. This is how I check to see the suspension tracking correctly: As accurately as I could measure between forward most bottom suspension pickup points and scribe a mark at the half point on the chassis. I would do the same at rearward most suspension. I would then pull a string set on these marks the length under the car. Next I would transpose this centerline to either side of the car using a large T-square. Finally, using a plumb bob, I would raise the line up(a Steve does here to make a box) till it is at the height of the axles. Now you can measure the axle or to the hub backing surface(where the wheel flushes against) to see if things are tracking straight. I've found things to be as much as 15mm total out of ''square''. One side in too much, the other out too much. Just another $.02 from the old days of Formula Ford.
@D3Sshooter Nice video, lots of good info. I’ve been doing string alignments to my car when prepping it for AX. When I lower it and set the camber to more negative the toe changes to too much toe in so I have to realign it. Videos like these help me learn more. BTW what kind of car is that behind you at @15:36? That’s a nice looking car!
Caster is what u want those turn plates for. Not necessarily for the camber Most def for caster tho as you must make a .020* swing b4 you can get the correct reading for caster. That’s where the turn plates come in handy !!
Hugh...What...Besides changing camber, you also changed the toe-in! The best place(only place?) to have change camber would been at the rod end at the bottom of the upright. Also you have no idea if there's a slight taper on the end of that nut, I doubt manufacturing tolerances are that precise, it's also a rather short distance to get a measurement from.
Toe is at this time irrelevant ( well to some extend). That is why there is another video where Toe is addressed... Here is my sequence : Bump and droop , set Pre-load on springs, set riding hight, cross balance, riding hight, camber, toe , at the end check caster and kingpin incliation / scrub area and then verify all again.... Bump-steer is something i do inbetween. And yes as I stated ' Changing the camber can be done at the top and bottom whishbone where it connects to the upright
@@D3Sshooter Yes, you can adjust at the top or bottom, but if you're going adjust at the top you have to adjust both the rod ends at the top so you don't effect the toe. If you only adjust one of the top rod ends you'll be forever chasing camber and toe. You like to play with comp. sims., verify it there.
I've really been enjoying this series. High quality content and great visuals. Do you think you could make the voiceover audio louder to match the rest of the video? I have a hard time understanding you sometimes, and I have to turn up my volume and go back to understand you. Sincerely, A new Subscriber
Great video, I just have one question, when you adjust your camber in that method, you change the KPI inclination too? How can you compensate this change of the KPI?
Different tires may need different camber settings for optimal performance. Details of design and construction matter. Wheel alignment is tedious, painstaking, and distinctly un-sexy. But most people would be _amazed_ at what can be done to a car's handling through camber, caster, and toe adjustments.
OK... we can say it "less grip" or "much grip". But this is kind of misleading I believe. The grip is not given by the surface of contact between tire and tarmac, but by the force the tire is pushed against tarmac... and by the "nature" of both surfaces. A light car will have a less grip than a heavy car, both having same "foot print", yes we can improve this with the aerodynamic generated down force. The contact foot print of the tire do not share the same pressure... or force when the tire drop to the tarmac in an angle, this is were the canber helps: to control how the tire deform under the exchange of the weight distribution when the car is cornering... or turning at speed. Maintaining as much possible same force for the entire foot print of contact does not add grip, but helps to prevent tire damages and also helps with temperature dissipation. Same energy is shared to a bigger surface... less temperature per square cm... mm or inch..of that surface. Same for the rubber damage, there is am amount of force between this two surfaces right... same amount of rubber, in cubic: millimeters or centimeters or inch will be "chewed" from the tire... but if you do tis on a foot print of 10 square millimeters... or for an 100 square millimeters, the amount in tire "meat" by diameter will be total diferent. So: angle of the wheels help to prevent rubber damage on the tire, therefor will "give" you grip... but indirectly OK? Grip is friction and friction is not affected by how big... or small is the contact surface.
Most of this is incorrect. First off, lighter cars have more accelerative force from a given tire because they have less linear inertia. That coupled with tires losing grip POTENTIAL as you increase the load on them, means that an increase in load is a trend in the decrease of the grip gain delta. Hence it is important to minimize linear inertia but maximize load; aerodynamics can do this. A larger surface contact patch area has a lower average pressure, hence a lower load sensitivity curve than a smaller surface contact patch area. This means there is less grip potential lost when load is added. The reason for this is because tires have sidewalls, they're not balloons. Going bigger means more area for a given inflation pressure.
You should also look at your tire spec sheet when you are on track to adjust it. It should have a TTD (Thread Temperature Delta), it gives a recommended delta between inner and outer shoulder temperature which is usually pretty good to combine performance and tire durability (you will need a pyrometer and someone to quickly check your temperatures when you come in the pits after a hotlap tho). Usually it is around 15-20°C. I personally find -0.5° camber at front very very small, even for a single seater... -1.75° at the rear might be good, but it is not that powerful of a car, so you won't lose out on grip for acceleration quickly, so I'd go all in for cornering. Although you will always have more tire wear like that as well, so you also need to think about cost obviously.
But I must admit, my experience is with Lotus Exige race cars, with single seaters I only have sim racing experience where tire cost isn't an issue, just getting to the end of the race is haha
You're right about -0.5 for front and, in my experience, -1.75 is way TOO much for the rear, less 1.00 is more likely. He's just guessing. Did you notice he also changed the toe-in! The best place(only place?) to have change camber would been at the rod end at the bottom of the upright. Also you have no idea if there's a slight taper on the end of that nut for such a short distance.
@@rickden8362 i guess it all depends on how stiff the car is and how much it rolls to know the right camber for full contact patch in corners... which is where in the end, track testing and and temperatures come in.
@@jarnedeprins3617 With that much neg. camber, tire temps will be very deceptive, that I know from experience. 😉 And the fact that he also changed the toe-in with that adjustment. Not sure how confident I'd be in his set-up expertise.
@@rickden8362 But you do 3point measurement on the temperature, outside, middle, inside, so you have the 3 points. Together with the TTD given by the tire manufacturer that should give a good idea on if you are running too much or too little camber. But as I said, my experience is with GT cars, not single seaters. And certainly not with small tires like this ;) I guess he will doe toe in a different video, but you indeed need to do everything a million trillion times and recheck everything. Because his ride height changed a bit as well
This Channel is so underrated wonderful contents!
I would have added when racing on a budget i would adjust my chamber to achieve the best tire wear which is a good indicator of proper camber /tire pressures
Indeed, that is an other consideration. Everything is a compromise in setting the alignment...and for sure cost is one of them versus performance
You will not necessarily get proper/even wear with ideal camber settings for track driving, although it depends what kind of driving. I find professional drift cars are the fastest with quite even tire wear running POSITIVE camber in the rear despite negative camber in the rear being theoretically faster. It still doesn't make complete sense to me because elastokinematic camber loss would mean the rear tires are something like +1 degrees in cornering, but it is what it is.
Many times I find the inside ends up a bit more hot/more worn with ideal settings.
Pressure is maybe a bit more indicative and correlated with wear, but pressure is quite dynamic and will depend on your camber and loads in transient so it's always a compromise between modes.
Some of the best and informative videos on Utube. Congratulations and please continue. Would love to see the car being shaken down on a circuit. Kind regards
Thanks for the comments, the first track day is planned on 28 August - at Mettet
Love your work, Steve 👍
Thanks
Definitely a go to channel when it comes to information on racing...car setup how to do with enough info to help one understand the reason behind doing it
Great series! Thank you for putting it together. Please do make one more discussing how to tune caster vs KPI vs scrub radius.
Sounds like a good idea
The tire temps will tell you what camber the car likes and wants!! The temp gun doesn’t lie !! Same is true for the caster as the both go hand in hand !!
Another good one Steve ! Neil.
Thanks Neil, we try
Within 1 minute of this video, I subscribed to the channel. Thank You
Welcome aboard!
Love it!
Thank you
Dat doet me denken aan de legendarische Simca's (Rallye) en de Renault's R8 (Gordini). Van camber gesproken !
aja
At 14:30 you said you were going to give one full turn but only went 1/2 turn. Excellent videos by the way. I have learned a lot and applied it to my 1968 sports car. Used for spirited mountain driving.
Indeed, I did stated it wrong..
Really appreciate your informative and well presented videos Steve. Would be interested in your discussion of the physics and effect on driving of unsprung weight - rims, tyres and brakes etc.
Indeed , that is a very good point... maybe something for the next video
A few tidbits:
Positive camber in the front of old cars was mostly due to the design limitations of the knuckle forcing them to adapt a highly positive scrub radius. To minimize this the wheel can be aligned to positive camber in the design which will bring scrub radius closer to 0, lessening steering torque peaks during braking and lessening average steering torque. Many more modern cars do also align slight positive in the front for stability, though.
Adjusting the camber from the rod end closest to the push/pullrod can potentially cause a change in ride height as it will deflect the rocker, so bear that in mind. Adjusting camber from the opposite end can minimize it, as the rod should deflect less.
I also suggest adjusting the inboard thread as well as the outboard. Bear in mind that adjusting the more lateral arm's length is primarily a camber change, and adjusting the more trailing arm's length is primarily a caster change. You can also adjust rear bumpsteer and wheelbase with the trailing arms on many older Formula type designs.
Hello good sir. Not sure how I stumbled upon this channel but thank you for all the set up info. I’ve been into racing a long time and the style of videos really breaks down the whys and how.
I should mention I’m a suspension expert by trade.
Thank you William, I am sure that you have the expertise and knowledge to enlighten us on the secrets of alignment ... as there is so much to it... pro's like you are very welcome to correct and advice me.... Much appreciated
If you're a suspension expert you should know his adjustment here was all wrong.
@@rickden8362 your assumption is wrong as is your attitude. I own my own shop and a tire store also. What do you have ?
@@williamhall7165 I have the experience from years of setting-up my own single seat race cars, and I know right from wrong, and so should you. Did you not see that obvious error?
@@rickden8362 I seen several. But I also know a mistake is easy. I race stock cars. Not single seaters. But I also don’t see any videos you put out for the world to see. I do see many of this gentleman. And he has the bravado to post them and listen to the critic of inexperienced idiots that think just because they seen a video on a subject they are now a master technician. I have certification from Chevy ford and ASE YOU?
Laser unit awesome plus maybe mention measuring the garage floor with it first. Many folks have sloping floors, water runoff or constructor didn't bother, whatever. It's easy for folks to assume the floor is level just by looks. My garage floor's sloped so needed zeroing with stands similar to yours. As caster can effect camber, striking vertical a center line down the vehicle allows pre-setting of the suspension body points to symmetry. this symmetry means the estimated geometry during travel is actual.
Indeed and a good point.... I did mention that in other video's
@@D3Sshooter yeah I felt rather stupid seeing you'd already posted leveling the vehicle in another vid. The center line marking still worthwhile. I've found several car's I've worked on out of shape using a centre line datum. Keep up the good work.
this channel is so valuable, absolutely beautifully presented and many details
I’ve seen guys measuring the tire temperature that varies from outside to inside. On my last track day I measured 55 on the outside and 57 on the inside like 5 min after stopping the car (phone usb thermal camera takes time to start :) so I guess I need a bit more negative camber. Right now it looks 0 degrees but didn’t measure anything. So depending on the track I understand you can adjust it to give you the best grip based on the tire temperature?!
Indeed, during the test rides on the track the tires warm up , depending the track the inner , middle or outer part of the tire will be or less warm... I always take the average of all 3 area's , if each area is within a 10-20% tolerance to the average then the camber should be OK.... In your case that is IMO `ok' as the difference is minimal... Much depends on the track type, did you have many corners and if so then I would say that you could at -0.5 degrees of camber...
SQUARING the BOX and TRACKING STRAIGHT
Squaring the Box: IMO, unless you square the box you can never be sure your measurements are correct and the car is tracking straight, and not tracking straight kills setup and straight line speed. Squaring the box is done by removing the car from between the strings then measuring the cross diagonals(front left to right rear/front right to left rear) and adjust the strings till the diagonals are equal. Think about it, if the strings are parallel but in a parallelogram, they will not be parallel to the tires.
Tracking Straight: How do you know the car is tracking straight, i.e...everything is pointed straight where it should. Some people think setting the rod ends equal on both sides will do it and sometimes it will and sometimes it won't, particularly with old/repaired/modified cars.
This is how I check to see the suspension tracking correctly: As accurately as I could measure between forward most bottom suspension pickup points and scribe a mark at the half point on the chassis. I would do the same at rearward most suspension. I would then pull a string set on these marks the length under the car. Next I would transpose this centerline to either side of the car using a large T-square. Finally, using a plumb bob, I would raise the line up(a Steve does here to make a box) till it is at the height of the axles.
Now you can measure the axle or to the hub backing surface(where the wheel flushes against) to see if things are tracking straight. I've found things to be as much as 15mm total out of ''square''. One side in too much, the other out too much.
Just another $.02 from the old days of Formula Ford.
@D3Sshooter Nice video, lots of good info. I’ve been doing string alignments to my car when prepping it for AX. When I lower it and set the camber to more negative the toe changes to too much toe in so I have to realign it. Videos like these help me learn more. BTW what kind of car is that behind you at @15:36? That’s a nice looking car!
Caster is what u want those turn plates for. Not necessarily for the camber Most def for caster tho as you must make a .020* swing b4 you can get the correct reading for caster. That’s where the turn plates come in handy !!
Hugh...What...Besides changing camber, you also changed the toe-in! The best place(only place?) to have change camber would been at the rod end at the bottom of the upright. Also you have no idea if there's a slight taper on the end of that nut, I doubt manufacturing tolerances are that precise, it's also a rather short distance to get a measurement from.
Toe is at this time irrelevant ( well to some extend). That is why there is another video where Toe is addressed... Here is my sequence : Bump and droop , set Pre-load on springs, set riding hight, cross balance, riding hight, camber, toe , at the end check caster and kingpin incliation / scrub area and then verify all again.... Bump-steer is something i do inbetween. And yes as I stated ' Changing the camber can be done at the top and bottom whishbone where it connects to the upright
@@D3Sshooter Yes, you can adjust at the top or bottom, but if you're going adjust at the top you have to adjust both the rod ends at the top so you don't effect the toe. If you only adjust one of the top rod ends you'll be forever chasing camber and toe. You like to play with comp. sims., verify it there.
I've really been enjoying this series. High quality content and great visuals. Do you think you could make the voiceover audio louder to match the rest of the video? I have a hard time understanding you sometimes, and I have to turn up my volume and go back to understand you.
Sincerely,
A new Subscriber
I sure will, seems that something went wrong in the final prodcution..
Great video, I just have one question, when you adjust your camber in that method, you change the KPI inclination too? How can you compensate this change of the KPI?
there are other adjustments on the whishbones near the chassis that can change the KPI inclination
Different tires may need different camber settings for optimal performance. Details of design and construction matter.
Wheel alignment is tedious, painstaking, and distinctly un-sexy. But most people would be _amazed_ at what can be done to a car's handling through camber, caster, and toe adjustments.
Negative Cambers looks cool tho 😛
👋👋👋👍
Is there an episode that covers bump steer?
yes , I believe episode 2
OK... we can say it "less grip" or "much grip".
But this is kind of misleading I believe. The grip is not given by the surface of contact between tire and tarmac, but by the force the tire is pushed against tarmac... and by the "nature" of both surfaces.
A light car will have a less grip than a heavy car, both having same "foot print", yes we can improve this with the aerodynamic generated down force.
The contact foot print of the tire do not share the same pressure... or force when the tire drop to the tarmac in an angle, this is were the canber helps: to control how the tire deform under the exchange of the weight distribution when the car is cornering... or turning at speed.
Maintaining as much possible same force for the entire foot print of contact does not add grip, but helps to prevent tire damages and also helps with temperature dissipation. Same energy is shared to a bigger surface... less temperature per square cm... mm or inch..of that surface.
Same for the rubber damage, there is am amount of force between this two surfaces right... same amount of rubber, in cubic: millimeters or centimeters or inch will be "chewed" from the tire... but if you do tis on a foot print of 10 square millimeters... or for an 100 square millimeters, the amount in tire "meat" by diameter will be total diferent.
So: angle of the wheels help to prevent rubber damage on the tire, therefor will "give" you grip... but indirectly OK?
Grip is friction and friction is not affected by how big... or small is the contact surface.
Good points, and yes that is all very true...
Most of this is incorrect.
First off, lighter cars have more accelerative force from a given tire because they have less linear inertia.
That coupled with tires losing grip POTENTIAL as you increase the load on them, means that an increase in load is a trend in the decrease of the grip gain delta. Hence it is important to minimize linear inertia but maximize load; aerodynamics can do this.
A larger surface contact patch area has a lower average pressure, hence a lower load sensitivity curve than a smaller surface contact patch area. This means there is less grip potential lost when load is added. The reason for this is because tires have sidewalls, they're not balloons. Going bigger means more area for a given inflation pressure.
You should also look at your tire spec sheet when you are on track to adjust it. It should have a TTD (Thread Temperature Delta), it gives a recommended delta between inner and outer shoulder temperature which is usually pretty good to combine performance and tire durability (you will need a pyrometer and someone to quickly check your temperatures when you come in the pits after a hotlap tho). Usually it is around 15-20°C. I personally find -0.5° camber at front very very small, even for a single seater... -1.75° at the rear might be good, but it is not that powerful of a car, so you won't lose out on grip for acceleration quickly, so I'd go all in for cornering. Although you will always have more tire wear like that as well, so you also need to think about cost obviously.
But I must admit, my experience is with Lotus Exige race cars, with single seaters I only have sim racing experience where tire cost isn't an issue, just getting to the end of the race is haha
You're right about -0.5 for front and, in my experience, -1.75 is way TOO much for the rear, less 1.00 is more likely. He's just guessing. Did you notice he also changed the toe-in! The best place(only place?) to have change camber would been at the rod end at the bottom of the upright. Also you have no idea if there's a slight taper on the end of that nut for such a short distance.
@@rickden8362 i guess it all depends on how stiff the car is and how much it rolls to know the right camber for full contact patch in corners... which is where in the end, track testing and and temperatures come in.
@@jarnedeprins3617 With that much neg. camber, tire temps will be very deceptive, that I know from experience. 😉
And the fact that he also changed the toe-in with that adjustment. Not sure how confident I'd be in his set-up expertise.
@@rickden8362 But you do 3point measurement on the temperature, outside, middle, inside, so you have the 3 points. Together with the TTD given by the tire manufacturer that should give a good idea on if you are running too much or too little camber. But as I said, my experience is with GT cars, not single seaters. And certainly not with small tires like this ;)
I guess he will doe toe in a different video, but you indeed need to do everything a million trillion times and recheck everything. Because his ride height changed a bit as well
hey Steve, great content. Whats the suspension program your using in this episode? doesn't appear to be Vsusp
Hi Dave, VSUP is a good one , but this is one from racing aspiration. www.racingaspirations.com