Understanding defensive shots while playing pool in the APA Pool League.
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- Опубліковано 7 лип 2024
- Instructional video showing how to properly recognize defensive shots while playing pool in the APA Pool League (American Poolplayers Association) featuring pro player and APA Co-Founder Terry Bell. Please do not ask questions about rules here. Seek your local League Operator for ruling answers.
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This video is long over due! Great job Terry and I am recommending all APA players to watch this.
i like this guy,,talks in a calm mannner..im no rookie at pool rules and safetys etc but he explains things well for anyone to understand :) sweet
Great video! I like that Terry shows many different situations. It's tough to explain to others how defense works wihout thoroughly explaining/demonstrating what this video shows. A "must see" for all APA players.
This video is great. All scorekeepers should be required to watch it. I learned alot and will be calling more of my shot as defensive from know on. Thanks
Great video in explaining this. Thanks for sharing. 🎱
Show me ANY sport where strong defense isn't part of game play. I was a straight bar room shooter before I joined the APA. It took me months to get my head wrapped around playing safeties. Now they are an integral part of my game. I don't know how much you play or watch professional players, but one thing they all understand is it's better to play safe and try to improve your position rather than trying to make a low percentage shot or attempt a break out and leave your opponent with a run out.
EXACTLY. Leaving them with run outs is what better OVERALL statistical players DO NOT do.
@KennyRubin I agree. I think the area is a bit grey here but sometimes I will try for a shot, and intend to set up my next shot but know that IF I miss the shot where I am intending to leave the cue will leave a harder shot at the same ball I just shot. It's a defensive play with the intent of continuing to shoot in my opinion.
the videos u put up on utube are amazin, gives a better understanding of the rules
It would be nice to add an example about two-way shots.
Often times, I try to make my ball, but leave my opponent bad in case I miss. Sometimes, this includes leaving myself bad in case I make it, and the example referring to 'did you try to get shape on the next ball' does not necessarily mean that I wasn't trying to make my shot.
This was very helpful, thanks!
I have a much better understanding Thank-you
+Raymond Krautheim You are welcome. :)
@selfdeztruction That would be ideal and should be OUR intent when shooting. The other side is when watching your opponent shoot and looking for styles of shooting. That is one of the main purposes of this video.
im surprised they didn't show the one where you make your opponents ball after contacting yours first. I do that pretty often and those are defensive. Im a team captain a 6, but like the one with the bank on the 1 ball I still need to work on my speed and shapes and everyone makes mistakes those are the hardest defensive shots to call in my opinion. Team captains and score keepers observe the players during warm ups and in game carefully. Its fair to raise a sl if sandbagging if you go 2 vegas
Nice Vid Buddy!
@deadlyLampshade Considering the intent was not to make the ball, yes it is still a safety. While the safety did not work out as planned, it was still intended to hook the other player and end his turn.
One of the best way to play saw is by using the tangent line and the sliding or rolling cue ball to try and send the cue ball behind a wall of balls
Boy oh boy. This video sure makes me want to play by WPA rules.
@Flexman10 You should contact your local LO for all ruling questions.
@lastwinj That is why it is good to encourage fair play. On my teams, I won't allow such dishonesty. If I catch someone in 'sandbagging' of any form I will talk to them and if it continues I will write them up myself and or replace them on my team if I still can. If I can't, they will play less until they can learn to play fairly. Equalizer system or not... the situation would be the same. People really will manipulate any form of skill ranking I'm sure. Sad but true.
Let's hope this helps with understanding this issue. I feel it will.
Love
Paying attention while keeping score is required if you are to keep up on defensive shots. NO exceptions.
Nice explanation.
I've not seen this specifically covered anywhere, so thought I'd run it by you (taking "intent" as the difference between what's a defensive shot and what isn't):
If a player attempts a safety but unintentionally sinks his own ball in a legal manner, shouldn't this be marked a defensive shot?
The player's turn continues, but that wasn't the "intent".
Love the video does explain a lot! However as explained by Terry a higher skill level who is sandbagging will miss his ball and still have leave his ball on a next shot.... I am a 6 and I see this at tei cup and city I just wish players would truly give it there all
I have the same problem! Every shot I play, including the straight in easy shots, I play with what I call "Plan B". Even when I make the shot I make sure I've my next shot and my opponent wouldn't have a shot whether or not I pocket a ball. By playing "Plan B" sometimes I miss easy shots! People always argue that I played a safety or I missed on purpose etc!
@Flexman10 because u dont call ur shots in APA, u dont call ur safeties either. In APA, its slop, it counts
I have been shooting pool for several years, and I have been playing in APA for 2 years. I still don't know how to play defensively on purpose. I do get lucky sometimes with a close miss that leaves my opponent in a pickle. I am a very offensive minded player from the bar room days of yesteryear.
This is a GREAT issue,the APA has lost a member who was closing in on 500 games! Due to a SL7 (8 ball) captain who told this player he had to attempt to make an attempt to improve his position within three shots or a stalemate could be called
just one missing though covered indirectly. I knew a guy who would make a ball in 9 ball but leave himself so bad he couldn't make contact with the next ball. the guy was a 6 and would moan and groan when he did this.
Now if a low ranked player called a safety and accidentally made a ball you still have to mark that safety. but watch those high players.
How many Bad performance shots you would get in a game depends on your skill level. 5+ your getting 1 but it's a judgement thing. the new Score keeping app is going to tighten things up a bit but the system needs a shakeup.
I really think the APA should set up a page where you can try to spot the safety. give the team bonus points for every player that completes the test base the points on the score the individual's score
Viscous defense is great 8 ball or 9 ball if you want to play offense only play straights less knowlegible players who have only learned a one dementional game will often times cry dirty pool. Don't let anyone dictate their shooting style or lack of it on you
Great video, a little lost on what is considered sandbagging
I think you should address the "non productive" shot as well. if you can't make a shot, can you at least make your attempt "productive". being productive in my opinion is still offense.
@selfdeztruction I didn't take it that way, in fact, I took it in the best possible way-that people should be straight up when they intend to shoot a safety. Unfortunately, this isn't always the case.
American Poolplayers Association - APA another way to get raise skill level is by your league operater using his or her power to damage your handicap and get rid of u, cus u wont allow them to talk down to u,,, thats why am a 7 today
Bubbles?
5:33 nice shot
So what if I shoot to make my ball, but know that even if I miss I will not leave my opponent a next shot? Is that considered a safety?
Your "intent" has to be not to make a shot. In your scenario, your "intent" is to make the shot, regardless and is not a safety.
There are no bubbles in this video. I reccommend you make sure you are using the latest version of the Flash player.
Hey I love this Tortola, I had something completely different wrote up but the message did not want to send :)... I recently got called out on am 8 ball shot and playing APA, They called it a doubled kiss, for the reason i did not hit it and a 30-45 degree angle down wards, I have done research on this shot but never seen it the way i tried it..."Always center of cue Shots" i have seen.... I SHOT UPWARDS TO MISS CUE "Intentional" and hear that noise no one wants to hear still making the 8 ball but still fallows threw.. i was wondering if you had a video about that? i still gave them the game but for further apa games i would like to know thanks
TACOS HOUSE!
An issue last week. Although I bounce between SL2 and SL3,I've been playing for several years and pretty much get safety shots.
Last week I had a shot on the 4 ball but no way to get shape on the 5 without fouling because it was sewed up by other balls, so I called a safety to make my opponent foul the 5 ball shot, giving me ball on hand.
My co-captain argued my 4 ball shot couldn't be a safety because it was a clear makable shot. I said no, I intended to miss because I couldn't get any kind of shape for my next shot without fouling.
Who is right?
I’m not a scorekeeper but I’d definitely say you’re right. You had no intention of sinking your ball and you successfully pushed your opponent to foul.
Anyone have an idea on what stick he is using. Thanks.
Example #1 directly contradicts Rule 15 (g) “Touching or causing the cue ball to move, outside of ball-in-hand situation” which is a scratch.
Per Rule 16 How To Win A Game (g) “Your opponent scratches or knocks the cue ball off the table when playing the 8-ball” it is a loss of game.
The only scratch that does not result in a loss of game is a table scratch which is defined in Rule 16 Note 1 as “shooting at the 8-ball & [missing] it entirely.”
Picking up the cue ball is not a table scratch by the definition in the rules & should be a loss of game if done while on the 8-ball.
I was wondering about that, thanks for investigating that..
Good catch. I wonder if this contradiction is clarified by the APA somewhere.
One thing I do not like is when playing safe, a shooter can pickup the cue ball and say i do not want to shoot, here you go, you shoot. I just left my opponent safe with no shot and now he does not have to shoot. Can someone explain to me why this is GOOD pool.
Because now you have ball in hand and can shoot from anywhere.
The point of a safety is to get ball in hand...you now have ball in hand. I don’t see the issue with that
It's the exact same as merely tapping the cue ball and refusing to shoot. You get ball in hand regardless
Jeff Fennik it's not a perfect system. Yes in some situations you having ball in hand could be a negative which sucks. I only know of one instance that this is the case so it's almost perfect. It's in 8 ball where you both have your ball left on the rail and your opponents ball is closer to the pocket and the 8 ball is close to another pocket. You must play 100% right or you give the game away. Any other instance, ball in hand is a win.
So if you make defensive shots does this mean you are a better player? I mean most of the players are not professionals. And if you play a lot of innings in a match does that effect your rank?
+Mike Shinski A Defensive Shot is a shot where the shooter deliberately misses so as to pass his turn at the table to his opponent. Simply stated, it is a shot where there is no intent on the part of the shooter to legally pocket a ball of his category. Intent is the determining factor. Think of it this way: any time you are not playing offense, you are playing defense. Players of all ability are capable of performing Defensive Shots.
Skill levels are maintained, calculated and updated by the Local League Office. The process includes a number of factors such as the application of specific mathematical formulas to the data on the weekly scoresheets, win/loss records, Higher Level Tournament performance, qualitative judgment by Handicap Advisory Committees, and other considerations. You are asked to refrain from attempting to keep your own records as it is a generally disruptive practice.
what if you call a safety shot and somehow make the ball in?
@apaleagues How abt reminding your LO's ESPECIALLY THE CLARK COUNTY, NV
LO, abt DEFENSIVE SHOTS because He does not concur with the black & white classification of a defensive shot as you have itemized herein E.G.: IF somebody is hooked & kicking just to hit their ball they are making a defensive shot he has repeatably said NO. Vegas is the SandBagging APA Capitol & while teams I play on mark their defensive shots; they end up not getting counted because most of other teams do not mark theirs.
I hate being score keeper :(
If you are playing safe call safe before you shoot
the reason most defensive shots are not marked, is because the scorekeeper doesn't realize a shot is defensive and the shooter doesn't anounce a safety. I hate having to play APA as a 7 s/l (8Ball) and 9 s/l (9 Ball). They always put up a very low s/l player
Although I haven't played in years I am an apa 9 ball player. My s/l is 3 and the last game i played was against a s/l 9. I learned early on about defensive plays and because of that i came within 1 ball of winning my match. It wasn't easy by a long shot. Now maybe because of my understanding of defense my skill level is lower than it should be. I don't know. All I know is that I love the game and would love to play again.
Jim,he/she can only do the "ball in hand " thing three times or it would defeat the idea
why not just call defensive or safety prior to shooting?if we let our intent known and the outcome is as we predicted then wouldnt these disputes be ended?
Hi Eastcoast…we never like to hear that one of our members feels they did not receive a fair match. I would encourage you to give our National Office a call at 636-625-8611 and provide us with a few more details. It’s always possible for a SL2 to play well and compete, but if you feel like a player is competing below skill, please reach out to your Local League Office as well. Hope to hear from you soon.
American Poolplayers Association - APA I'm pretty sure missing on purpose can/is considered to be sandbagging which the last I checked is cheating
Is that really Bob Newhart?
SandBagging
1. Intentionally Missed Shots for the purpose of manipulating handicap.
2. Intentionally not marking safeties/defensive for the purpose of manipulating ones or team members handicap.
3. Intentionally manipulating ones or team members handicap, by not reporting/under reporting safeties Knowing that the League Operator will not count defensive shots and or goes with the average or least amount of safeties/defensive shots between two teams on any given night of play.
Put an End To It!
Oh ok,i thought the vid was aimed at the player taking the shot.
Im a semi noob and i just want you to know that i wasnt criticizing the vid or anything,i have watched a few pro tournaments on tv and i was thinking that it was possible that verbal cues were not allowed.
Why not call your intention before player plays
So what would you do if you were put in a sittuation where, if you won your match, you would be raised and would no longer be of use to your team? All of the money and time would be waisted, and my team would lose their best player.
Also, is it sandbagging if you are trying to maintain an honest skill? In my experience, it is way to easy to advance to the next level.
I was raised up in a regional tournament just because some very irate women, (from the team that we beat), went to the director and raised hell. At the time, I wasn't a sandbagger. I was a sl7 and now a sl8 with a 63% win ratio for the session and a 60% lifetime with about 150 matches. And no, we did not win that day.
Now I pray that I do not go up to a sl9, as no team will want we on their team.
One team from my area made it to 4th place and two players who had no business going up were raised. This game is hard enough as it is, now we have to worry about what happens if the team is playing too good!? What kinda crap is this!!!?
It is important for APA to know, that finding low skills can be a big challenge. I see a lot of lows who are playing and don't really want to be there. They are convinced to go by someone else on their team.
I think that raising the team handicap to 25 would be a big relief! I bet it would eliminate 50% of the sandbagging.
it is a way for the league operators to make more money because they earn a certain amount on every member so by raising your handicap will eventually bring in atleast 4 or 5 new members so the team won't bust out at 23.
"In 9-ball if you don't play position on the next ball and you miss, it's a defensive shot".
Absolutely disagree. In APA 9-ball matches we don't count the number of games but the number of balls potted. So if the position on the next ball is difficult, it makes lots of sense to pot the current ball and play safety on the next ball.
Ziyang Liu by definition, if you are shooting to play safe on the next shot, you are playing for position on the next ball. Doesn’t mean you are playing position to pocket, you are playing position to play safe.
I play with some APA league guys once in a while, they're obsessed with 'defense play' which I think is terrible for pool that's why it struggles on TV so much, no one wants to watch a 10 minute safety battle. I never liked handicap systems, in golf it's the same thing it becomes all about how to sandbag, and before anyone tries to say 'APA isn't about that' I see it myself. I think it should be 'must attempt to pocket a ball' and it would do a lot for pool.
You do that when you are hustling or playing bar pool. THIS IS A LEAGUE. We are trying to keep the games somewhat fair and competitive. Its like when I play with someones girlfriend who never comes out or someones boyfriend who is a doctor or lawyer and never had or took time to learn to pool. Those people dont have fun when you play well usually. Giving them the ability to safety keeps it interesting instead of crushing. It also take the element of hustling and unethical play out of the game. It is pretty obvious to me.
A good player can force a bad player to take a lot of "defensive" shots by these definitions...so I don't see how it's very useful for handicapping. I play a great safety...my opponent is forced to kick at the ball just to try to hit it. Now we both played defensive shots...so what? Doesn't tell you anything just looking at the score sheet.
I have to personally disagree about the general view on "sandbagging". You can't pretend to ever know the players intent, or integrity in most cases. Playing to a higher skill level is hard and it is possible for players to play very good and also play very poorly. Not all players conform to a statistic metric on variation of skill level.
I think in general what is happening, is a winner take all effect for each skill level bracketing. And people don't like it so they say, he/she is winning always they should be in the higher skill level. But often the truth is, no. They simply are not good enough, and they forget how hard it is to improve and how easy it is, to let your game slip at any time. There may be a best 4 skill level and as such they will win more often then not, but they are not competitive at skill level 5. It's always gonna be that way maybe in a fair competition that a few individuals come to dominate over the others..
My self in 8 ball, I can average my racks down to say 2 balls, on average. Then it is not uncommon to have 2 runs in a row, at the same time I've had days with out any run outs, and even as bad as failing to pocket any ball on first turn, frequently. There is huge variation in my playing ability, it can very depending on how much lately i've been playing, and maybe just the plain fact that's the kind of person I am, huge variation and difficult to predict how I will do.
As to a solution for the real problem perceived as intentional "sandbagging" the only real solution is a more granular skill level groups for the matches so that players can more accurately me grouped by skill levels so that every one can feel like they had a decent chance of winning.
Hey there, we are very much interested in hearing more about this and trying to assist you in any way we can. Call the National Office at 636-625-8611 and we will do our very best to help.
I play out of Kansas City and this whole defensive shot thing has gotten out of control here on our teams and the teams we play. I believe just recently in a play-off game one player we had to play a guy who made over 27 defensive shots in one match. We have players making Serious Fouls calling them defensive shots (hitting your ball or the 8-ball on purpose out of turn to block pockets, mess up shots, etc). This will be my last session playing in apa, mostly because this isn't pool. It is just dirty pool and very unsportsmanlike conduct and its getting worse. We have to pay to play and it isn't worth the hard earned money to have to play players like this constantly. The rules are too thin leading to a manipulation of the rules and a misunderstanding of what the actual rules of pool are. Serious Fouls are not defense shots imo Terry, its just dirty pool. I will probably be forfeiting a lot of games this session because I am not playing players like this, and I am not paying to play players like this.
melanie my dad says the same thing...and like i try and tell him its just you are old and you cant stand change...the truth of the matter is pool was not played historically with enough defense [8 ball] and the game has been adjusted ...deal with it learn it and have fun ...good day
Melanie Smith Uhhhhhhhh. APA player here. I'll address your points in order.
> We have players making Serious Fouls calling them.. balls out of turn...8ball out of turn
These are not defensive shots consistent with the APA rule set. They are fouls and its your responsibility to call "bad hit" and the other player's responsibility to yield the table with ball in hand
> dirty pool...
"Dirty Pool" is the mating call of the bad pool player. I've been playing competitively for 8 years in the APA and BCA rule sets. I think a speak for all regular players when I say defensive shots are critical to interesting pool. For seasoned players if you are not allowed to play defensive shots you might as well call it a loss if the table doesn't confer an advantage after the break. Defense is essential for turning a losing table into a winner. With that being said 27 defensive shots sounds excessive, but you should make sure you mark them on your sheet, because that player could be using them to sandbag their skill level.
> rules are thin
This is nonsense. The rules are extremely clear. If what you are saying is true then you should chat with your league operator. As a captain of an APA team I've watched a few hundred matches over the past year and can honestly say I can count on one hand the number of times there was a dispute over whether a shot was legal or not ( with the exception of one bozo that liked break out the "dirty pool" card, luckily that team booted him off shortly there after for his reluctance to learn the rules)
With all that being said. Defensive pool gives rise to a different game and its sometimes a bit of a culture shock to your average tavern ball banger. But if you take some time to learn the value of a good defensive game you'll find it adds a whole new dimension to 8Ball that you may not have realized was there.
Arthur Carey Wish I an example was given in the video but every example given is just a normal defensive shot. I could use example #4 I guess as somewhat of an example in the video. However, instead of Terry hitting his ball and trying to hide it behind them... he turns and shoots at the 8 ball and 2 rail banks it in the middle of all his balls... In any pool rules in any real book this is called a serious foul and when done its not just ball in hand, its ball in hand twice in a row, or even loss of game depending on the ruling.
The object of the game is to hit your balls, not your opponents balls, or the 8 ball out of turn to manipulated the layout on the table so your opponent cannot win or even hit his own ball without loss of game. None of the examples in any of these videos are even close explaining what is going on were I play pool. In none of these examples did Terry turn and shoot his opponents ball, or the 8 ball out of turn to make in almost impossible for his opponent to win.
I do this defensively sometimes but I do it within the rules of the game. Meaning I hit my object ball first and use either my object ball or cue ball to hit and move my opponents balls if I need to. I would not care one bit it was done this way. I just don't turn and shoot my opponents ball or hit the 8 ball out of turn to make it so they cannot pocket any of the balls without knocking the 8 ball in.
The rules are THIN because according to the rules of the apa I can lay my stick on the table and push all the balls to one side of the table against the rail and just give the guy ball in hand. Not much different than hitting the 8 ball out of turn to block a pocket, or turning and hitting your opponents balls instead of yours to manipulate the layout so your opponent has no shot without a scratch, foul, or loss of game.
What would be the rule if I did that bye the way.... if laid my stick on the table and pushed all the balls to the rail.....I asked; know one knows... I know it is a Serious Foul and its loss of game but no one else seems to know because its not in a 5 page rule book that is give out.
lol last Thursday a dude made 42 defensive shots the match took over 2 and a half hours for just five games, and he won, and he won by NOT potting his balls and constantly turning and hitting the other guys 2 or 1 remaining ball or the 8 ball out of turn to manipulate the table and layout.. The guy basically lost because he actually potted his balls--- what a fool, yeah.
The object is NOT to pot your balls, but to use them as a ball in hand tool until you can move all your ball right in front of the pocket, and if it doesn't work out correctly, just turn and shoot the 8 ball out of turn or your opponent's balls that are remaining. Even the 5s, 6s and 7s are having difficulty winning games against 2 and 3s, because the 2s and 3s only have to win 2 games like this.
Few more games until the Finials and if this isn't against the rules Ill be playing like this from now on because you really cant lose playing this way because there are no rules. Just don't pot your balls, line up a few easy ball in hand, and if you get into trouble just hit the 8 ball or your opponents' balls to your advantage.
Silly me, I was trying to play pool the correct way, you know by the rules and stuff. I didn't know it was anything goes rules and the only penalty is ball in hand once no matter what you do. Got more rules for what goes on around the table than what is going on, ON the table in the APA. Plenty of rules in the APA of what a Serious Foul is off, and around the table, just not on it.
lol
Melanie Smith we figured it out and a solution to the issues.
I would hope so. Striking the 8 or the opponents set first is a "ball in hand" foul. If your opponent doesn't acknowledge this then they are cheating. This is a sportsmanship violation and the match is eligible for forfeit at your league operators discretion.
As for 42 defensive shots. There is nothing wrong with this, but I'd say if you are playing an opponent capable of 42 "lock-up" safeties in a row then they may just be the greatest pool player of all time. I play competitively at the 6/7 SL level and would not be capable of this.
For your "stick" question. There is no "thinness" in this rule. A ball moved out of turn by the player's stick or body is re-spotted at the opponent's discretion. Now if your opponent clearly does this on purpose its a sportsmanship violation and you should report it to your operator. That match is eligible for forfeit.
Because my position stinks, you say that was a defensive shot. Because I didn't play the way you thought I should get position. Also if I miss a shot of course my position for the next ball would be off. Why would you say defensive shot. Pool was suppose to be a fun game. This is like first grade. Like teacher I intended to do my homework.
League owners are not required to be honest, the way your scoring is set up both uou znd TAP LEAGUE Encourge sandbagging. If you challange anything uou will be shunned, threatened, never get fair rating
yeah no shit. nothing like going to tri's and getting bumped twice because our area doesn't mark the defenses... this apa shit is confusing.
Disagree on multiple points. Some of this is very suggestive in interpreting intent. There are also quasi shots that are defensive and offensive in nature. AKA 2 way shots. Lot of this slows down the game and I think overall leaves a bad impression in this faltered handicap system that tells players to get points but not win the game. Primary reason for the lack of american players on the world stage compared to counter parts elsewhere. To have nearly 10 different scenarios is my case in point...just way way too much to bicker about. Need something more simple
all that waffle ,,,,that is why real men play snooker
I love snooker, but if you think for one second that it's more fun to play AND watch than 9 ball, you're just plain stupid.
This ain’t good pool. Pro rules are so much better
Funny cuz people hated when dunking the basketball became popular [the old white folks called it dirty basketball hahahah] ...always play the best shot possible...defensive shots are critical to high caliber pool...even committing fouls sometimes is your best shot
What a bull shit ... just play pool ... no handicaps
exactly why i don't play apa or even competively...crybabies make the rules. this is where "house" rues comes from
I know, it's maddening to me I sometimes play with a few APA guys and all they do is 'defensive play', many times shots are available to them, and they do some little safety shot just to block you. It's garbage, and I don't agree with the APA it's not 'ethical' at all and turns pool players into lazy sandbaggers. I think defensive play should be banned from pool and be considered a foul if an OB pocket was deemed not sufficiently attempted.
davids11131113 quit pool buddy cause you don't understand the game, you probably try to sink everytime. Beginner mistake.
maybe people should just play better. LOL
Hi I just joined the league and at best a 1, but with all due respect to Everyone and Anyone in the APA LEAGUE, its Affiliates, Sponsers, Vendors, Players & Fans. All this nonsense would be avoided if shots were required to be called...