BAR RULES and DIRTY POOL - Why Official Rules are Important
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- Опубліковано 22 тра 2024
- Dr. Dave discusses and demonstrates the commonly accepted "bar rules" used in casual, non-league, non-tournament 8-ball play. The differences from the "official rules of pool" are pointed out, examples of common bar rule variations are covered, and many types of shots that are considered “dirty pool” in bar play are demonstrated.
Contents:
0:00 - Intro
0:31 - Bar Rules
3:13 - Variations
5:21 - Dirty Pool
9:21 - Wrap Up
Supporting Resources:
- rules resources page: billiards.colostate.edu/resou...
- league rule differences: billiards.colostate.edu/resou...
- bar rules resource page: billiards.colostate.edu/resou...
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Good Luck With Your Game!!! - Спорт
*Contents:*
0:00 - Intro
0:31 - Bar Rules
3:13 - Variations
5:21 - Dirty Pool
9:21 - Wrap Up
*Supporting Resources:*
- rules resources page: billiards.colostate.edu/resources/rules/
- league rule differences: billiards.colostate.edu/resources/rules/rule-differences
- bar rules resource page: billiards.colostate.edu/resources/rules/bar-rules
*Subscribe to Dr. Dave's UA-cam Channel:*
ua-cam.com/users/DrDaveBilliards
To be fair, bar rules are great, if you enjoy fighting. Every bar player gets opportunities to be involved in a bar brawl, which is probably one reason why most women avoid American billiards like the plague.
@@myblacklab7 Well stated. So true. Although, some women get turned on by “tough” men. :(
Can you make this same type of thing except what are the all the actual rules of 8 ball. Sometimes reading them is not as clear as your explanation.
@@z28camarobc Good idea. I'll add it to my list. In the mean time, the videos and info here might be helpful:
billiards.colostate.edu/resources/rules/
along with this document:
billiards.colostate.edu/resource_files/rules_summary.pdf
@@DrDaveBilliards That's true, but I think a lot more women get turned on by a sense of humor, a man who will take the time to listen to them, etc.
For about a year, I haunted bars and billiard halls about four days a week, and I didn't see one woman get turned on by an aggressive guy.
One guy confronted me and made a scene while I was playing his girlfriend in a tournament, basically daring me to fight him. I still have no idea why he was upset, and that poor, embarrassed woman had the telltale look of a battered wife. I was too confused to even get mad.
I played one guy who open-carried a gun, and the cute bartender was relieved that I was occupying him.
The women who go for men who enjoy being violent are a sad sort of damaged people who usually end up as victims of abuse. Some of them end up dead (statistically, the most likely victims of murder are women who leave their abusers).
I've had many female friends, and some girlfriends, and never saw any of them go for a violent guy. I know that type of woman exists, but it's pretty rare. I have an interest in firearms as a useful self-defense tool, but I find that most women I know don't even like talking about guns - they are not at all impressed by my ability to defend myself from criminals, and they would definitely hold me in disdain, if they thought I was trying to be a tough guy.
I find that the bar rules start coming out when someone's clearly being outplayed.
I always thought the same thing
Yep. The best thing about "bar rules" for somebody who sucks is: They can try to make up rule "variations" that are "convenient" for them.
I agree. How often does anyone see short rails being called like at 4:30
@@pauljsavagejri leaned back in my chair a bit when I got to that point lol
0:57 the only rule that I think should be the official pool rule
Grew up in a small town playing bar rules. I was one of those that thought ball in hand was "chicken shit" pool. Once I had the opportunity to play in a BCA league, I fell in love and much rather play BCA than random bar rules.
Sounds like you have a good open mind and probably didn't do a lot of dirty pool playing even though you were playing by rules that allowed you to.
Ultimately, the reason I think most bar rule players defend their rules like they do is because they cheat continuously within those rules. They don't know how to win without cheating because their safety play is just pretending to try to make a ball or scratching when it's convenient. Then acting like they are trying to win the academy award to convince us otherwise. Lmao
It's honestly so frustrating that people don't know the rules of the game, but then will argue with you like a child when you explain it to them.
Bar pool sounds like it’s for scoundrels 😂! Official rules for me.
I've always assumed a lot of bar rules are there to favor hustlers. For example, losing a game on an "accidental" scratch on the 8-ball, or "accidentally" scratching to force a kitchen shot, etc. Being able to lose by apparent lack of cue ball control or "lucking" into a scratch that leaves your opponent tough are both really useful results if you control when they happen.
Good point.
That is the essence of being a hustler 😎 A hustler uses everything to their advantage and making their own"luck" while making it look like simply getting lucky to the opponent.
Dirty pool serves as a metaphor for a society that does not live by the "rule of law". The "bigger, stronger, meaner" actors prevail by making arbitrary rules under the threat of physical harm. And the "pool gods" are usually not on the job to straighten things out! Great video.
Thanks. Well stated.
@@DrDaveBilliardsOf course nothing's perfect. In a complex world the ruleset tends to grow larger and larger, to the point of absurdity. Let's hope we never need an attorney to play a game of pool! (With slo-mo cell phone video we do now have instant replay, which is a good thing I guess.)
Hey Dr Dave, it would be amazing to make a video that explains why real pool rules are better then bar rules. It would be awesome to be able to show someone a video that might convince them to start playing with official rules instead of bar rules.
I seldomly have luck convincing someone why official rules are better.
Good idea. I’ll add it to my list.
Dr. Dave, I've played many crusty, confusing, and often heated games in WI under "bar rules" before joining an APA league, playing on 9 footers, learning BCA rules, 9 ball, one pocket, all that jazz... This video explains the quirks of bar rules better than I've ever seen before. Nothing right or wrong about it, but it's a treat to see it explained with such thoroughness. May the Pool Gods shine upon you, my friend. 🍻
Thank you. I’m glad you liked it. Please share it with others.
Great vid, grew up playing bar rules, even worse in work camp with guys who basically lived there full time. One had to be flexible to, as you say, avaoid bodily harm.
Much prefer "real" rules once having become accustomed to them.
@@ianjamison5460 I'm glad you liked it. Please share it with others who might need some pool rule enlightenment. :)
My least favorite is "the 8 ball has to go in clean" even though i called the carom. I even had one guy try saying i couldn't bank the 8, it had to be a cut shot. Those are the type of guys I'll give 3 games to in a race to 5😂
IMO, 8 must be clean because you can’t involve opponent balls in any combination, whether carom or otherwise. I’ll gladly race you to 5, with or without the 3, lol.
As for no banks on the 8, that’s absurd. Whoever said that is nuts.
1:48 I have had to explain this shot to every single person I've ever used it against. Even great shots don't realize this is a legal shot. Thanks for showing it so I can send them here before they get my beer.
I just hope you don't "get a thumb broke" when you ask them to watch my video. :)
@@DrDaveBilliards 😆 I’m too old for that kind of work. Nowadays it's more like, get me a beer & I'll teach you how to stop losing to me so much.
I was recently watching my roommate play straight pool and realized that's where a lot of the foul rules come from. Straight pool used to be the prevailing bar game and in there, starting from the kitchen on a foul makes sense. 8-ball then took over as the prevailing bar game but the foul rules weren't updated. The other stuff is probably just from arguing over money games.
Good point.
Love your humor, Dr. Dave! Instead of a broken thumb, here's a thumbs up!
I like it. Thanks.
Hilarious! I've played lots of bar pool. I'm nearly 70 and I still hear new 'rules" regularly.
"Bar rules" are the gift that keeps on giving.
Hi Doctor! I'm writing from Hungary and I have some very weird and funny additions to this video about a rule set that are considered as "bar rules" here. First of all, at racking, the 8-ball is on the footspot, and you can only break from the headspot. As you discussed if you pot a ball from break you will be with that group of balls. Usually if they pot more balls they have no answer how to proceed, so they consider the table open, but without knowing this term. The shots don't need to be called, anything can go anywhere, but if you pot the other group of balls it is a foul. When the cue ball goes in a pocket or out of the table, you can only put it back on the headspot, and shoot out of the kitchen, same as you said. When your opponent fouls, there is no ball in hand, instead you can shoot twice, so you can miss once and continue, or if you pot a ball from the first shot, you can still have the chance to miss one and then continue and so on. The black always needs to be potted to the opposite corner than where you pot your last ball. So if your last stripes goes into the bottom-left corner, then the black needs to go to the top-right corner. If you pot it elsewhere, you lose. This rule usually results in completely cleared tables, and only lost, not won games, because usually someone messes up and pots the black in the wrong corner after a bunch of tries to finish. Also with this rule set, potting the last ball to the middle is considered as a big disadvantage because it is harder to pot the black in the opposite middle than in a corner. One more funny rule is that if the cue ball is on the rail, then you can move it by one butt-end thickness off the rail so that you can have better access to it.
The funny thing is, that in Hungary everyone who is not at least on the lowest-end competitor level is knowing the rules as I described. And also these are just some examples, I heard wild variatons of these during the years. People who are not competitors never heard about 9ball or 10ball, or the official rules of the 8ball, and usually they don't want to accept them if you try to convince them. This rule set is like a folk song or tale, spreading from mouth to mouth, and the funny thing is that I also heard some examples all accross from Europe that they knew these rules also, so it is not a unique thing only in Hungary.
But to say something good too, luckily we have fair amount of tournaments where of course the official rules are applied, a few very active and helpful organizations, very good players and also a world class player in the person of Olivér Szolnoki. We also have a statistically based ranking system for everyone who ever played on a tournament in Hungary (in the past couple of years) and it is considered as good or even better than Fargo. You can check it out here:
www.biliard8.hu/?fbclid=IwAR2-B0fGlpGXG77lwH3oCU-ieQO090tO4-hypm70h82VMyfEv9M4i9eRTIM
But I bet you, that if you ever come to Hungary, and ask a random guy on the streets about the rules, he will describe the ones I listed above or something close to them. Unless "You got lucky" ;)
Some of those rules sound like English 8-ball rules
Was about to say what the other comment says. It's a mix of "Blackball" and "Pool" rules.
Good call with diagonal 8ball - in Poland this rule is still alive too. It’s ridiculous when people play with 1 object ball on the table for like 20minutes when they can just start a new game 😅 I know the legend that before 1989 when in the Eastern Block there was almost only bar box tables with coins inserts, this rule had to lengthen the game significantly to make it „more worthy” (?).
@@karolczoch9712 wow, interesting and reasonable story. also now that you are saying coin tables, I realize, that many people has the reflex to catch the balls when they are heading to the pocket, even though there are not much coin tables anymore
in argentina we play the exact same way!
I had a guy once deliberately try to shoot his ball into jaws of the pocket I had intended for 8 which was my last ball.
I called the carom into said pocket and made it. He cried foul and said he won cuz a carom on the 8 wasn’t a legal hit. ( we hadn’t discussed the rules he thought were His Rules as I had won the table from the previous player ).
Told him he can’t enforce rules not agreed upon before the break and if he had a problem with a Billiard after which the game is named too bad, go complain to the bartender.
He waited his turn and tied to enforce his rules again… I dropped the 8 on the break… he left..
Nice.
Who decides the rules? Why is nobody playing with the official rules?
Anyone who would play like that guy did is a moron. How could they even want to play a game that would alow for that. Glad you popped that 8 in off break next. I've had people try to say the 8 has to be made clean. B.s.
Thanks Dr. Dave for shedding some light on this. The first time I played in a bar as the second place in my uni’s pool league it felt like I was learning a new game from scratch 😅
Especially from "scratch".
Great video, love it. I remember many years back in Germany, there was the bar rule that the 8 has to be pocketed in the same pocket as the last playing ball, or as a kick shot.
Yep. The variations are almost endless.
Played a guy a couple days ago that kept changing the rules as we played....but them valley 5" pockets are buckets when you practice on a 9' with 4.25 pockets😂
I got into pool while in the military and quickly learned to avoid playing in non-pool hall establishments, especially at bars where complete strangers were already under the influence. Pool is the perfect example of how committed to ignorance people can be. Even after showing people PROFESSIONAL rules they still want to argue I'm wrong. And even more frustrating there was never any consistency. Admittedly, I never got good enough to beat them at their own game by hustling or sinking to their level, I just found it more enjoyable to go to the actual pool hall in town where people were regulars and acted civilized.
Well stated.
I’m an amateur player who only plays at bars at the moment, but luckily the place I frequent avoids some of the sillier rules, like call-all-the-details. Safeties and defensive play are perfectly acceptable as well. Also, even if fouls are not called, most players are polite and try to avoid them out of courtesy for their opponent. Polite players go a long way for making bar rules enjoyable! Lastly, one bar rule I didn’t see mentioned but that is almost universal here in Puerto Rico is that you must pocket the 8-ball where you pocketed your last object ball. If both players pocket their last ball in the same pocket, the second player to do so either goes on the opposite pocket or their opponent decides the pocket. I find it fun, since it adds an extra layer of strategy to pocketing the 8-ball. I do hope to play in 9-foot tables with official rules soon, but if you’re blessed to find a nice bar with reasonable rules and polite people, bar rules can be a very good time as well! ❤
Sounds like a smart bar.
Here in Brazil the bar rules are so different. When you commit a fault, your opponent put their lowest number ball in the hole and all the dirty pool are allowed. Great video.
Thank you for sharing. It sure would be a lot simpler if everybody, everywhere would just use the "official rules" of pool:
billiards.colostate.edu/resources/rules/
Thank you so much for this video! I would have loved this when I first started playing a couple years ago!
Fun video. Loved it. Perfect blend of humor and information.
Thanks. I'm glad you liked it. I enjoyed making it.
In my college days in the early 1990s, most of these rules were followed with the exception of play what you sink. The tables were always open after the break, regardless of what was sunk. I think I once sunk 3 stripes off the break and had no follow up shot. That sucked as I ended up solids that game.
I've only ever seen a rack that alternated solid-stripe around the edges ... where all 3 corners end up solid. The other epiphany is the ball-in-hand scratch. I've always thought that it far too often punitive to the other player when he had to play from the kitchen after the opponent scratches. The only details that needed to be called were to ensure that sinking a ball wasn't just lucky slop. So, a straight shot into the corner that ends up grazing a rail is fine. Calling the 13 in the corner, sending the cue blazing into a mess of seven balls, and the 13 randomly dropping into the corner after hitting 3 rails and 4 balls is not fine.
The vast majority of the dirty pool examples requires way, way more skill than any bar players I ever played with. I think that's the difference between college kids at a bar and 40 year old men who've been playing serious pool for 20 years at a bar. Safeties were generally OK and only really crossed the line when people didn't hit any balls whatsoever and their "safety" was merely pushing the cue ball a few inches. It was also bush league when people intentionally hit your ball first in a combo -- they knew they'd lose a turn, but committed the foul anyway.
There is always more to learn about nebulous and mercurial "bar rules." :)
Great video, Dr Dave! Didn’t know some of these differences.
Oh, trust me ... you will hear more if you hang around bars enough.
I just say BCA - Ball in hand before I play anyone. Hate bar rules. Scratching on the 8ball without pocketing the 8ball has given me so many losses.
whats BCA
The first set of bar rules you went through is how virtually every opponent I've ever shot against plays.
This is over the last 30 in the Houston, TX area. Thanks for the video!
I'm glad to hear at least one person agrees with the "standard" bar rules.
I love this video. Over here in wisonsin I can walk across the street from 1 bar to the other and the rules ocmpletely change from call your pocket to call your shot. This is because bar a is a younger bar with less pool focus where bar 2 is an older crowd who've grown up playing with those very rules.
That’s a common story.
Another great video Doc. I watch all cue sport videos on UA-cam. All of the pool games, carom games, and snooker as well. I really enjoy watching snooker and Ronnie O'Sullivan in particular. The one thing that I can't quite understand about snooker is the way that they can play safe. They don't have to hit a rail after contact which surprises me. That makes it so easy to play safe. I find that very strange.
Agreed. Having to shoot away from a frozen ball is also odd.
In my humble opinion, there is some logic in these rules. First mentioned one allows not to be punished when escaping from very hard situations where cue ball has to travel 12 feet or more just to touch a legal ball (and balls in snooker are very small). Second one prevents stalemate when opponents keep playing safeties barely touching nearest object ball, occasionally putting cue ball in contact with it.
@@DrDaveBilliards One is the consequence of the other: if you don't have the rule that you must hit a rail to play safe, then both players can just keep touching the frozen ball over and over again, so play would become frozen and a rerack would be forced if you didn't have to play away from a frozen ball.
I think the reason it is not seen as necessary to hit a rail on a safety shot in snooker is because the only time you can ever snooker your opponent behind the object ball of your safety shot is when you have potted a red ball and you then snooker them behind another colour, after which their object ball reverts to red again. The ability to do that is seen as your reward for potting the red previously. Note that if you are awarded a free ball(nominate any ball on the table as if it were your object ball when your opponent leaves you unable to hit both sides of a legal ball-on after they commit a foul), you are not allowed to snooker your opponent behind your nominated object ball. This is probably because at that point you have not potted a ball, and therefore you are not given the reward of simply huddling up to your object ball to snooker your opponent.
It would be interesting to go back and read about why it was decided you don't have to hit a rail in snooker, but I suspect it's because of the additional power required on a larger table, which makes it more difficult to keep the object ball of your safety shot safe. It would also make a mess of the table because you'd be sending the colours all over the table every time you have to play a safety shot on one, and this would really slow down the game and start blocking pockets for reds. 9-ball doesn't have enough balls on the table for this to be a problem and in 8-ball the players don't share their object balls, so it's a very different situation.
@@osirisgolad Well stated, and excellent points.
Today I learned about the masse shot out of the kitchen after an opponent scratch, verse kicking or banking at it, Thanks Dr. Dave!
I’m glad you learned something; although, it takes practice to be able to execute it consistently.
One of the most interesting conversations was a scratch on the 8 that rolled out of the pocket after the scratch
Popular ball rule where I am from is the 8 must be made clean. Meaning the 8 can not carom or contact any other ball on it’s way into the pocket.
One last one that I have heard occasionally is if you scratch on the break at all it is an automatic loss.
i mostly play APA but also occasionally sub for a men's league team that is essentially bar rules. not being able to play safeties is a game changer, but it's a great way of learning two-way shots
Two-way shots are "smart." Some people who play in bars don't like people who are smart.
You don’t like safety battles if you lack imagination and creative personally. To each their own I guess
Bodily harm 😂 Here are two very important variations for Europe. In most bars here in Europe no one ever calls the pocket. In fact you might even rattle the pocket where it bounces off into another pocket and you can continue your turn. Secondly, and one of my favourite, if you are a girl and your cue ball is stuck to the cushion you can move it with your hands a fist away from the cushion for an easier shot. You may do the same as a male, but you may end up being called gay. Finally, eight ball needs to be pocketed in some bars into the opposite corner of where your last ball was pocketed. This kind of sucks if the eight ball is hanging already in some pocket but it's actually fun. And one last thing, never, never, put on your pool gloves in a bar. (I always have a spare one in my mobile case for the occasional let's go play pool in a bar). You will end up dead in a ditch outside the bar. 😂
Pro tips: Many bars don't have chalk. Don't ask for chalk. Trust me, if your like your beer. Also, it's easier to teach a monkey Japanese than trying to convince someone to play using international rules. Just go with the flow.
The risk of “bodily harm” is the one international “universal.” :)
I used to let people use whatever rules they wanted, as long I was winning while gambling. People get too hung up on rules. Pool hustling isn't pretty sometimes but you have to line up all the "rules" prior to betting.
That would require a very long re-gamble discussion. There are lots of rule variations out there, and people can still make up all kinds of crap during play.
I didn't hear you mention hitting three 'bumpers' avoids a foul lol I hate bar rules
Yep. The list of "creative variations" is staggering long.
I'm from Massachusetts,South of Boston.I have found that bar players call it "Chelsea pool" if you play defense.Chelsea is a city right across the Mystic River next to Boston.I always ask people where that saying came from but I haven't found the reason yet
I really dislike bar rules
In case you can't tell from my video, I do also. :)
WOW!! Those pockets are huge. That ball had no right to go in @2:03 😂
Pocket speed helps. These pockets are huge at slow speed, but they notoriously spit out balls at fast speed. See:
ua-cam.com/video/XYau6pv6zaU/v-deo.html
I am still amazed by the number of opponents who claim to know and play by BCA or APA rules and then cry, "Dirty Pool" when I play a safety!
Yep. Some people just don't like when an opponent plays smart pool and beats them with it.
@@DrDaveBilliards Sometimes I ask if they have ever watched a professional match online. If they say yes, I ask them if the professionals always break and run every single rack. Then I try to explain the high value of safeties.
@@trailerwookie But playing a safety is too smart. Being smart is not allowed in bars! :)
@@DrDaveBilliards Infallible logic!
@@trailerwookie Yep. But that sounds smart. You must be looking for a bruisin’. :)
Great VIdeo!!!!
Thanks!
I think there is an important point of context that's missing from the analysis when it comes to judging which ruleset is better or worse, and that's both how the table differs from proper equipment and how the social context differs from competitive pool playing under league rules.
First let's address the equipment. Bar boxes, as I've heard you call them, have pretty wide corner pockets and are often smaller than standard tables (in my experience). This makes slop a lot more common (especially when you consider that the felt will likely be old and thus play very fast). However most importantly, you have to pay per game. Thus, there is incentive to get as many fun innings out of the game as possible.
However, I think the social context I've encountered is even more important. What I've encountered is a long queue of people waiting to play and the structure is whoever wins gets to play the next frame and the loser goes to the back of the queue and the wait to get back onto the table can be very long if you lose. The winner gets to break on the next game/frame and the new player is the one that pays for the game. Additionally, there is a wide variety of skill levels present. In this context it would be highly frustrating if you pay for the game and the guy who won the last frame breaks and runs and sends you to the back of the queue without even getting to take a shot. Or if a highly skilled player only ends their turns with impossible safeties for the person who hasn't used a pool cue in years and has been waiting for an hour to knock some balls around (and again, payed for the game). With this in mind, it makes a lot of sense to me that safeties are discouraged and there are more opportunities for a turn to end than in league rules (I've even encountered places where combo shots would result in a turn ending). The point is not to create the most competitive game but make it so a tipsy person out to have fun on their birthday can do just that (have fun) even when their opponent is the bar pool whiz (and if you think about it, this winner-stays-on format means *most* people will be playing someone vastly better them if there are such players in the rotation).
For a competitive, rich game, of course league rules are superior. That's what they're designed for.
Excellent points.
This video frustrates me soooo much~~ I m glad that all my friends are playing official rules~~~ Especially I like making safety shots a lot...
Defensive safety play is a very important part of the game.
@@DrDaveBilliards Exactly, plus the unclear variations just make playing pool not fun and caused a lot of unnecessary arguments. I eventually couldn't stand that and literally studied the official rule book and now everyone in my dorm agrees with, now we all improves!!
I'm glad to hear your dorm is compliant. :)
Yeah, so many variations to the game, that at one bar I went to, if you hit the ball on to the floor you had to pay the barkeep a $1, and that was back in the early 1990's.
I like it.
This is why I detest bar rules
You're not the only one! Although, it is fun to be "creative" at times (for example, with some of the "dirty pool" shots).
Same here. I only play official rules.
@@samhaigler1716 The worst part about "bar rules" is you are not allowed to play smart! :(
@@DrDaveBilliardsThe worst part is that they often change the rules as the game goes on.
@@user-lb8do4ew6k Yep. I often find frequent "rule creativity" entertaining.
Thanks! good video , i play in League on Sunday that is Bar rule for a Club League
You're welcome. Thank you for the support!
This video reminds me of how goofy the rules that my family members (and me, even though I don't really like to, but I can't make them understand the official rules) use, when playing 8-ball are.
First, when racking, you have to place the balls in the same way you showed in the video, at 3:39, with the 8 ball on the foot spot. Whichever ball you pocket first, even when on the break shot, that is the group of balls you have to pocket. You don't get to choose. Also, if at any point you pocket one or more of your opponent's balls, even if you pocket a ball of yours, it's the end of your turn and the opponent comes to the table to play from the current position.
Hitting an opponent's ball directly leads to a foul. After all balls stop moving, you take the opponent's ball you hit in your hand and pocket it. If you happened to be able to clearly see at least one of your balls, your opponent gets awarded the cue ball in hand, but if you can't see any of your balls, he doesn't. Also, if you hit a rail first, before hitting an opponent's ball, the penalty described in the previous sentences no longer applies. No immediately pocketing the opponent's ball, and no cue ball in hand.
The cue ball in hand penalty applies to every shot where you can clearly see one (or more) of your balls, and you miss it completely, by the way. If, instead of hitting the opponent's ball, you hit the 8-ball first, without being on it, your opponent gets to play two shots in a row, and, if you were able to clearly see your ball and miss it, he would also get the cue ball in hand! Now that's a huge punishment: cue ball in hand, and two shots in a row for your opponent. Thankfully this situation barely happens.
If you scratch, the opponent has to place the cue ball on the head spot, and play from there, away from the half of the table the cue ball is placed on. Yes, you read that right. Instead of playing away from the kitchen, you have to play away from the first half of the table. This basically only leaves kick shots as a good option, as swerve shots are significantly harder to execute. This creates a weird situation, when both players are on the 8-ball: in this situation, if one player misses the 8-ball three times (mostly because of this goofy rule of not being able to play the 8-ball directly if it lands in the half of the table where the cue ball is spotted, and the opponent scratches), they automatically lose the game.
Speaking of getting on the 8-ball, here is another weird rule: after you pot your last solid (or stripe), you have to play the 8-ball in the pocket that is in the opposite end of the table. If, for example, looking from the head spot to the foot spot, you pocket your last ball in the top left corner, you have to pocket the 8-ball in the bottom-right corner. Same thing applies for side pockets: if you pocket your last ball in a side pocket, you have to pocket the 8-ball in the other side pocket (by the way, ending the game by potting the 8-ball in the side pocket counts as two points, instead of one). Potting the 8-ball in any other pocket than the one you have to, is an automatic loss of game. Because you can't choose which pocket you want to pot the 8-ball in (unless you were careful to pot the ball before the 8 in the right pocket), some interesting situations occur: we'll take the previous example, looking from the head spot to the foot spot. If you are on the 8-ball (before that let's say you were shooting solids), and you have to pocket it on the bottom-right corner, and your opponent is on his last stripe, and pots it in the top-left corner, theoretically he should pot the 8-ball in the same corner pocket you have to: the bottom-right one. But, two players cannot pot the 8-ball in the same corner. If the corner you should pocket the 8-ball is already occupied, you will have to pot the 8-ball in the same pocket you potted your last ball. For the last example, the opponent has to pot the 8-ball in the top-left corner, instead of the bottom-right one, because it is already occupied.
If your opponent accidentally (or willingly) pockets your last ball, instead of being forced to play the 8-ball in the opposite pocket, you get to choose which pocket you want to pot the 8-ball in, to prevent players from intentionally potting their opponent's last ball, leaving them in a tough situation if the 8-ball is safe. However, once you choose the pocket, you have to stick with it until the game ends.
For the other interesting situation I mentioned earlier, it goes like this: both players are on the 8-ball, each having their pocket where they have to pot the 8-ball. Because four of the six pockets are not used in this final phase of the game, you have infinitely more safety options than if the rules were the official ones: you can literally leave the 8 close, or hanging in a pocket that isn't your opponent's, and the only options for your opponent is to either try to leave the 8 there (if that pocket isn't yours either) or try to get the 8 close to their pocket. The 3-miss rule from earlier comes into play here: you can intentionally scratch, and leave the 8 in the kitchen, or close to it, such that it doesn't go to the other half of the table. Your opponent is guaranteed to be in a tough position, unless his pocket is one of the ones in the kitchen area.
So, yeah, the rules my family members and I follow are a mess. I would be really curious to see how our strategies would evolve if we would follow the official rules. A lot of the tactics we use now would no longer be useful, or even possible.
Those are goofy family rules, but at least everybody knows what the rules are.
Hi doctor, I want to ask, where did you buy the joint extensions you are using?
I bought it online. Sorry, but I don't remember where.
That’s an impressive scoop shot you got there Dave, that deserves a video on it’s own 😂
Done: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/scoop/
Honestly the easiest form of pool is official rules without calling everything (except solids or strips).
Either the ball goes in or it doesn't it's pretty obvious.
That whole call every little thing is a trick shot rule, not an 8-ball rule, yet it applies in every bar version of 8-ball with small variations. I've seen so-called bar rules change mid game and seen rules made up on the fly in bars enough to make it comical at this point. I used to play bar rules years ago and couldn't believe how many versions there were. Once I played my first season in BCA league 8-ball, I never played bar pool again. I found I liked playing the adult version of 8-ball much better than the drunken kiddie versions in the bars.
I like it. “Adult” vs. “drunken kiddie.”
it reminds me of playing competitive fighting games where people used to fight in the arcades if you spammed the same move(even though it worked), ive gotten yelled at for blocking too much, picking a cheap character,etc...
American bar rules are weird lol. Here we never had to call anything, not even the ball or the pocket, like in 9 ball. However, there was a rule where you had to pocket the 8 ball into the same pocket where you hit your last stripe/solid. Unless it was the same pocket your opponent already "reserved", then your pocket was the one on the opposite side of the table. You can imagine how often that led to lengthy 8 ball shootouts in the end between people who didn't have the faintest idea how to aim kicks and banks lol. It was fun in its own way at the time, but once you learn the official rules you never look back.
"Last pocket" is a common variation. I should have included that; but there are so many variations, I didn't want to get carried away.
It’s worth noting that no official rule set mentions anything being “dirty pool”.
They incentivize players to not do it
Under the "official rules of pool," nothing can be construed as "dirty." Shots are either legal or not. There are no "gray areas."
I played in an 8 ball event and guys quit playing me because I played dirty pool, if I had no shot I locked them up with clean legal safety lol
Dirty pool would be more akin to unsportsman like conduct. Intentionally doing something you know violates the spirit of the game and not necessarily a rule.
@@earlschandelmeier751 guys told me I played dirty pool when I played legal safety’s lol. Sissy men
@@earlschandelmeier751 My original draft outline included stuff like this. Then I decided to include mostly just the things “bar rules” people think are “dirty” but aren’t.
Hey David my cue stick is starting to bend a little do you know how to fix this. A video would help too
That would be a better question for a cue maker or cue mechanic. I don’t have any experience with this. When I played with wood shafts in the past, I just ignored any slight warp. As long as you don’t twist your wrist during the stroke, the warp really isn’t a problem. I’ve used carbon fiber shafts for many years now and don’t plan to change. They don’t warp, and they have other advantages:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue/carbon/
At the bar I play for in BCA league we often play ball in hand rules, some people dont like it so I always ask what rules they play. Huge difference in skill level from people who play ball in hand compared to players who don't play in the BCA league. Fair to say bar rules hold people back from developing their game more since you don't need to hit a rail or nothing. Mondays Doubles league is bar rules I hate it but most of everyone on my team plays ball in hand for fun 😄 monday is just extra practice for Wednesday BCA,. we crush teams really bad when they don't play ball in hand 12-3, 13-2, 11-4 etc... All teams that play both or ball in hand for fun do really well.
I was never bar guy, but I have played in bars on occasion in the past. There are some real yahoos out there in bars who fancy themselves as pros. The mannerisms, chest puffing, stuff talking. All this, despite really being bar bangers, who can barely run 3 balls. 😂
Essentially reward mistakes and punish calculated shots. Great game!
Yep. "Bar rules" are not good for decent players.
Growing up with Bar Rules (House Rules), most every place were near the same. Explained as it keeps outsiders from coming in and "winning" and gives the locals an upper-hand. Dirty Pool wasn't so common but in a few instances -- yep, sure went on ... try yer luck or steer clear of it !!! Choices! If I chose to play, either accept what is except when blatant or call it out as it happens --- never shied away !!! *Reputation will follow you!!! -- Oh, rules should be clearly posted so people know ... or guess I should have asked at the start of the game ---- any changes, use 'em to yer advantage! : ) Pool sticks hurt btw! *Always be honest and play clean!!! Be Safe
In some bars if you call a shot on the 8 and miss, you lose. In some bars, people play bar rules because they’re more interested in fighting than playing pool 😳
Thanks Dave!
Well stated. The variations are almost endless.
i played in early 70s the only 2 rules were u had to hit ball 2nd was you had to hit your ball first if one of your balls slopped in you were still shooting. with theese 2 rules it was simple no arguments. the more rules made the more fights and the longer the game lasted.point is it is fair for both players.
Hello Dr. Dave.
First I want to tell you that I love your videos and they have helped me a lot to play better (Although I'm still stuck on level 9 rds for months).
However, what I want to tell you is different.
I have listened to several of your videos on my studio monitors and have noticed that there is audio clipping in many of them. I don't know what the reason is but assuming you don't do a lot of audio processing, it's probably quantization errors in your audio editing due to cutting, export errors, etc.
I don't know if you had noticed that, nor do I want to seem disrespectful. I just have to point it out in case you haven't noticed.
Respectful greetings from Tulancingo Mexico.
Thanks for the info. I have noticed this also on occasion. I think it is a bug in my video editing software (Pinnacle Studio) export module.
this is great timing cause my father and i have been going back and forth on typical bar room pool. I don't understand why a jump shot would be considered dirty tho. I've never been told that at any bar.
Jumping properly isn't dirty per say, it's incredibly hard to pull off and takes a lot of skill, I'd be impressed losing to a proper jump honestly. The reason bars ban jumps and masse shots is because 99% of casual bar pool players will try a scoop jump, which is frowned upon for two reasons:
1. First comes the official rules. "Scoop" jumps in WPA are classified as an intentional miscue, and I believe it actually results in a loss of frame (you lose on the spot) if I recall right. Correct me if I'm wrong!
2. On the bar side, doing any jump shot or masse without proper technique or equipment (like a jump cue) will usually result in the tip of your cue striking the table, which damages the cloth on it. Bars don't want to replace the felt every 6 months, and they know that an overwhelming majority of pool players are just hustlers or bangers and that they'll do a scoop jump instead of a proper one, so they just disallow them to preserve the integrity of the table felt and save money.
Hope that clears things up for you and your dad!
@@jamesjackson6813 that makes sense thanks
I played in multiple neighborhoods, in the one, as a young adult, no one was interested in playing 9-ball because it was considered dirty pool or slop! They didn't understand that it was about progression, always hitting the lowest number first!
In my main "neighborhood", most of us preferred to not play 8-ball for money!
Worst bar rules up here in Ontario Canada is they always play last pocket. Still would shark guys up but they play so many dirty shots without a rail being touched and think they are good
Best rule of thumb when youre in a new bar just go with the flow ask how they normally play and play house rules also house rules can change at each table even in the same place I normally ask about 3 or 4 questions when playing with someone new. Do you call every shot? Does bullshit run? Behind the line or ball in hand? Anything else that comes up i just default to what the other guy says unless its my table then its standard rules.
That sounds like a good approach.
Well... I guess it's a good thing that I now know how often I've been an "unscrupulous opponent." (Usually unintentionally.)
Hi Kurt! Welcome to “Unscrupulouses Anonymous.” :)
@@DrDaveBilliardsYou've shown me the errors of my ways. I plead ignorance, even though it's no defense of the law, and will take the first steps toward recovery!
@@kurtkensson2059 Good job with your first step!
How could you forget the barriest bar rule of them all?!? "Scratch on the break is instant loss of the game!"
The list of “creative” variations is seemingly endless.
It is interesting to me what various rule sets consider "unsporting" behavior. I think in UK 8-ball and also modern Chinese rules, any shot that makes no attempt to be legal (for example, intentionally hitting the wrong ball first to tie up balls) is considered unsporting and is punishable by loss of game. But American rule sets (at least, all the official ones that I know about) allow deliberate wrong ball first as just a regular foul.
That is correct. Some strategic intentional fouls (except "unsportsmanlike fouls" like intentional miscues, scoop jumps, or push shots) are allowed under the international WPA "official rules of pool."
This is why is havent played pool in a bar in decades. Nothing but real pool rooms. People know the rules and there is no stupid bar rules or just made up rules.
There's a simple way to turn the tables on your shyster opponent when he intentionally scratches leaving you a kick shot in the kitchen ( 6:05 ) Just take the cue ball an shoot the 1 ball directly into the corner pocket and try to leave him without an easy shot. The penalty for this like all other fouls is just loss of shot which you were going to lose anyway kicking at the 1 ball and potentially leaving him another intentional scratch. Btw if your on the 8 ball an this happens just shoot the 8 ball directly out of the kitchen and try to leave the cue ball behind the 8. This is how you out dirty a dirty player. Btw# 2, The first example actually happened in an 8 ball tournament I was playing in. The tournament director was called over, and he was so dumbfounded by it that he said it was okay because he couldn't think a rule or penalty other than loss of shot.
Yep. Bar rules are "less than ideal."
I usually go off CPA / APA / WPA rules
@6:41 -- I use to have a friend who would play safe like that, over and over again, shot after shot, back to back. I told them how annoying it was and that if they learned proper cueball control they wouldn't have to play cheap safes to get themselves out of a jam all the time.
Someone else I played once whacked the 8 at the end, it bounced off like17 cushions, went in and they said they'd won. When I called them out they got angry and said we were playing "British Pub Rules". I called B.S. and said I don't care what country you're in (we weren't in Britain), you call the 8. They threw the cue onto the table and stormed off.
at my hometown we play 1 and 15 ball in the side,bank 1 or 2 more rail,kick in 3 or more rails on 8 ball,slop counts if you hit your object ball first, what is dirty about the game if you have your side ball close to side pocket and a opponent blasts it away from the side pocket if you do it on purpose
I don't understand why so many people actually like these rules. The 3 local 8 ball tournaments where I live are either pure bar rules or bar rules call the details with ball in hand, which is at least an improvement. I don't even bother playing certain shots because I feel like I need to draw a diagram for them to understand the shot, when the only thing that should matter is if I made the called ball in the called pocket.
Amen to that.
Every person I’ve ever played pool with uses a different variation of bar rules - everyone has their own way. I absolutely hate this.
Just use the official rules and life is easy.
Amen to that. It is almost comical at times.
been playing pool for 52 years when I was a kid you could play safe without hitting a rail or a ball but you had to call it before shooting. I have played games under all these rules my favourite of course is the scoop
"oh I play regular rules, same as anyone"
And then they proceed to be inconsistent, use scoop shots, hit your ball first, play on the kitchen etc. I hate playing in a bar, and more so when you can tell they've had "enough" to drink.
I wouldn't call "bar rules" "regular." Any decent player in a bar should want to play under "official rules:"
ua-cam.com/video/c-4URzvawhs/v-deo.html
@@DrDaveBilliards exactly! It frustrates me to no end when people think their house rules or specific bar rules are universal, and then get frustrated when I actually stick to WPA.
@@andrewgonzalez7143 it is a bit odd that some people are not willing to play the game under the official rules. Most people are usually willing to play most games under their actual rules. Go figure.
"Dirty" pool, huh. I live in East TX near the AR border and there's certainly a descriptor used for the type of pool you're talking about, but the word used is never "dirty" 😆
What annoys me about 8 ball in bars or events is the rules are always different…when a guy claims I can’t hit a combo shot off my own balls or “you can’t hit an object ball off the 8 ball” is just silly! I like when a hill Billy guys tells me I have to call everything, ok, 7 ball off the 6 ball, hits rail and in. I can play like that but it’s annoying. I like calling the pockets but for Pete’s sake do I really have to call everything…but the same guys will not hit their ball and hit a rail but don’t recognize a foul.
“ usually to the benefit of your unscrupulous opponent.”
Ain’t that the truth. Integrity is a rarity, in my experience playing anything competitive.
... especially in a bar with alcohol involved and money on the line.
One of my favorite bar rules is you suddenly have to bank the 8 after winning a few times in a row.
Question; is it DIRTY POOL to simply grab the cue while NOT waiting for the cue ball to stop rolling after the foul(fail to hit the designated ball)? Because I’ve seen this sort of thing at the local pool hall where I play pool. I saw some inexperienced do that, grab the rolling cue ball after the foul while not waiting for the cue to stop rolling.
Dr Dave, can you expand on a controversial subject. Earl Strickland believes 9 ball is luck. That the break has become the most important part of 9 ball, in addition to a few other things. Where winner breaks, and can gain a gigantic lead which will effect mentality. I see his point for the professional level, as there is a very high % chance if a pro makes a ball on the break he wins the match. I think this is what he means by luck
The current version of pro 9-ball (9 on the spot, break from the box) take most of the "luck" out of the break. See:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/break/9-ball/
@DrDaveBilliards when did those changes take effect. And did earl have a point when the 1 was on the spot
@@jwkoreaguy I am not sure when the changes went into effect (maybe late 90s or early 00s). Earl definitely had a point about the 9-ball break being a problem before the rules were changed, especially when racking templates are used.
@@DrDaveBilliards huge fan Dave love ur work!
@@jwkoreaguy I'm glad to hear it. Please help spread the word about this video. More people need to see it (especially the people who like "bar rules").
Shane quit a tournament because he sunk the winning 10 ball that was very very obvious and not calling the pocket. The ref called it against Shane and he unscrewed his cue in the middle of the match.
The rules are the rules.
The one consistent rule of bar pool is whoever is losing gets to make up their own rules to their advantage
Good summary.
This is why big don't play with strangers at bars. These rules are so stupid.
i agree with Robert Byrne -- don't waste your time playing "bar rules". If you are winning, the bar "rules" will change. I can remember playing "bar rules" and guys scratched on purpose then told me I had to play from the line and go up the table and come back and hit the 8 or else I lose. I joined a pool league in 2006 and learned how to actually play pool. Bar rules are for suckers and people that don't know how to play pool. Period.
Hey Dr. Dave, I have a followup question. I was playing the other day and my opponent hit my ball first intentionally in order to combo in one of their balls. Is that dirty pool or just a loss of turn.
Under typical bar rules, that’s just loss of turn. If it was done on purpose, it is also “dirty pool.”
@@DrDaveBilliards That's what I thought. Thanks for the reply. Love your videos.
i played some scottish lads. they played bar rules, but were far simpler.
old rules rack setup
fist ball potted is what you are
foul 2 shots no pick up
potted cue ball replace on the middle of baulk line, 2 shots
pot another ball or white with black is loss of frame.
no jump shots
thats about the extent of their rules.
I have a niche dirty pool trick that inevitably cause an argument or fight. Purposely don't shoot out of the kitchen after a scratch. Worst case scenario it's a bad shot and loss of turn, right? Haha
I like the way you think, but good luck with your thumbs. :)
He went easy on them . Proponents of these asinine rule sets are what is holding back the game of pool from achieving greatness.
Have never seen safety play considered dirty pool.
To illustrate the difference between bar rules and official rules you need to state both what the official rule is and what the common bar rule is. Could’ve been an interesting video had you done that
Agreed. That might have been a better way to do it. Instead, I did it as two separate videos. See the folllow-up video for the official rules:
ua-cam.com/video/c-4URzvawhs/v-deo.html
I've never played a game with the official or bar rules. We always played a weird mix of both... (In South Africa and New Zealand)
That doesn’t surprise me. There are any rules variations out there.
I have often also seen a 3-shot limit on the 8 ball -- after your third miss, you lose. (Which...probably that one's just there to speed up bad slapball play, I'd guess, lol)
Yep. The possibilities are almost endless in "bar rules."
Bar room variation: 1) On a break if a hi and a low ball goes down you get to choose what you play for but only get to keep your choice if you make the next shot 2) Only have to call the rail first if it is further away than the first dot closest to the pocket. (other wise your going to need a referee to rule what hit first or if they hit simultaneously) 3)You can play safety any time you want. That's pool nothing dirty about it. What is considered safe though changes every where! (usually an argument ensues and a do over is given) 4)Double hits! I didn't see no double hit did you? ( Really I slowed the video down to 0.25 and I still didn't see any double hit.) Personally I never heard of anyone calling dirty pool seriously.. Always must hit your own ball first.
If you play in bars long enough, you will hear almost everything.
1) if the table is open off the break, what are your thoughts on shooting a stripe to solid (or vise versa) combination on the first shot?
@@pauljsavagejr I like it since it is allowed under the official rules of pool. See:
billiards.colostate.edu/resources/rules/
I believe that would be up for debate, but I would play the choice you hit first must be the same as the ball you pot except on the break.@@pauljsavagejr
I have many thoughts on this. "Bar Rules" and things like this are one of the reasons why the sport isn't taken seriously. One of my favorite things to say is that every single rule in pool was created because someone got in a fight over it. Also Dave, the reason you missed all those damn shots is because you didn't use your DAM aiming system!
DAM. I think you are right. I should have used “I should have used DAM instead” in the video when trying to “sell” those “creative” shots.
I acquired a truck driver licence just by watching this video