it's so painful when you two get on this extended re-imagining of an alternate story that's way more engaging, and at the end it's like "well... but back to this" lol
the whole discussion at 1:07:38 is why i have a problem with most modern retellings of the hades and persephone myth, because a lot of them (lore olympus VERY much included) write it as an emo bad boy king of the underworld love story and make demeter this overbearing, controlling mother that persephone needs to get away from, and it completely loses the point of the original story - the overwhelming power of a mother’s love for her child. demeter was willing to end the world for persephone! she was so intent on getting her back that she forced the king of the gods to bend to her will! and while i do think there’s room for other interpretations, the fact that controlling mother demeter has become kindof the norm is off-putting to me, especially since in the actual context of ancient greece, the original storytellers probably would have been mothers missing their daughters who were being sent off to marry some guy, and newly married girls missing their mothers. love these videos, there was always something about lore olympus that annoyed me whenever i saw it even though ive never read it, so i’m glad to have a chapter-by-chapter breakdown like this so i can see why i got the weird vibes from it that i did!
The lyre thing is so dumb. There were so many times he could’ve been shown playing it, polishing it, tuning it, just really drive the point home that he cherishes this instrument. Then Persephone could steal it and think to herself, “Apollo treats this lyre better than he treats living people. Let’s see how he feels when something precious to him gets ruined.” As like a parallel to how he’s ruining her chance at independence from her mother
Yeah it was a total missed opportunity, too - I mean, his car is *right there* AND it represents his mythical golden chariot! You would have gotten the two for one destruction of a magical object and a great metaphor for his manhood! But noooo, that would have made Persephone look *too* angry, and we can't have that! Thanks for leaving a comment!
The lyre kinda has some importance to Apollo but is actually more important to Hermes and his myths. So, as a music God, Apollo does care about it, but that's more an inference that most readers wouldn't have the background on. They completely missed any setup for it.
If you're going for the kinda modern jobs... why not make Apollo a rockstar essentially and his lyre is his instrument. You could still have that entitled attitude of his and work it into the plot better.
I never noticed that but I always knew of Ap*llo’s ties to the lyre as it was a gift from H*rmes after he steals a whole herd of cattle from him. However considering not everyone (I guess surprisingly to me but 🤷🏼♂️) isn’t well versed in Greek mythology you’re more than 1000% right. I get it’s fanfiction of IRL gods basically but if it’s going to be treated as an OG story than things that would be obvious to someone who knows the mythology should be made textually explicit in the story itself (like Ap*llo having a lyre and being god of music)
In relation to the nightmare she had where she’s pregnant, it’s even more disturbing that hades dreams of them having kids/her having his kids. she never had any thoughts or dreams abt this and he’s been dreaming this waaaay before they were dating, while she was 19 AND while he was dating minthe. And she’s completely unaware nor expressed any interest in it. It not only shows how little we truly know of Persephone internally but it gives her less agency of what she thinks on certain matters bc someone else already thought of it before her/without her consenting to it
Yeah you're so right. It's another example of the narrative setting up Hades' wants as being paramount and Persephone's wants as being ancillary to whatever *his* desires are. Persephone never even questions if she wants to be a mother, she just basically immediately thinks of how to satisfy Hades. It's so bizarre and sinister!! Thanks for the comment!
I genuinely think this comic is just depicting Rachel's own problematic ways of thinking about these things. I like to give authors the benefit of the doubt and don't link their personal beliefs to their work, but Rachel doesn't seem to be very competent as we've seen. I think it's clear how much internalised misogyny she is filled with.
@@pyrrhic_victoria it also really shows how hypocritical Rachel is. She claims this story is supposed to be feminist, but when you get down to it, LO is even more misogynistic than the ancient myth of the abduction of Persephone! You have all the female characters being bland or try to be superior to the MC in a narcissistic or petty way, or the female characters are butchered completely so they are worse compared to Persephone. Rachel tries to give Persephone more agency and personality, but she ends up using her as fan service (when she is 19 which is just barely over the American age of consent) by putting her in many naked positions for no narrative reason, taking away her sexual agency. She also lacks any personal agency because she doesn’t have any clear motivation or direction, and the only cares on how to make Hades happy without how it could affect her! And to top it off, any trauma that she was given either by her mother or Apollo is usually brushed aside and used for her character instead of having her arc being centered on overcoming those traumas and becoming a better person! Her PTSD is only used as an excuse so her relationship with Hades can progress because both hades has mother issues and been in an abusive relationship, which Persephone can’t relate to unless it happened to her, so those events only happen to give Persephone and Hades something in common with. No further questions.
That point about Hades and Persephone's traumas being treated differently is so true. To me, it comes across as trying to hide the real and ugly side of the trauma when it comes to P. The messed up thoughts, the rage, the shame, the misery, coping mechanisms... none of it is there. Like the trauma is an aesthetic that Rachel thought didn't fit Persephone because it's not pink, pretty and sexy.
Yep, hit the nail on the head. Any time the trauma would get in the way of the romance, it's totally discarded. It's really, really strange when you realize that Persephone's assault by Apollo was her *first time* and therefore you'd expect her to be so traumatized by the experience that she'd be put off men and sexual relationships? But never do we get any sense that she's scared of being with Hades, ever! In fact, she's more worried about being "good enough" for him rather than him hurting her! That aspect really infuriates me because Persephone's wants, needs, and persona is constantly given a backseat for what Hades prefers. Thanks for leaving a comment!
Oooh she could’ve used her plant powers there! She could form a huge thorny wooden club with her plant power to smash his windshield, and make black locust thorns to ruin his tires!
I've seen people say that the way Persephone reacts to being RPed is the other response, which is becoming hypersexual. No. It isn't. I've been through this myself, some years ago. My reaction was the "opposite of the normal", instead of being scared of being touched and such, I craved it from my abser. People might think and said to me "oh then it wasn't RP". It was. I was drunk by a friend and that's all I am gonna say about it. The hypersexual response is valid. Is when your mind and body block part of the memories, and manipulates you to think that you had control. To extremely simplify: if I am the one going for it, I can not get RP again. That's a real stretch to explain like that, but This is a UA-cam comment. In the hypersexual response, we do not feel good about ourselves. We do not like to search for our abser attention, we do not like the SX we might get involved, it gives us body horror, anxiety, some even to the point of body dysmorphia. Just like the common response, we tend to blame ourselves for the fact. That's not what Persephone have. She does not feel guilt, she does not want to get control of the situation, she's not flirting with her abser nor having mixed feeling about him. She acts like what he did was a harmless thing that hurt her feelings. Don't ever say her response to the trauma was a depiction of hypersexual response. It was not.
Its like you described, that form of response/trauma is extremely complex and involves a lot of conflicting feelings. We would need to see that at least once in detail for me to accept that that's what is being depicted in LO. The problem is, we NEVER get to see those feelings or get into Persephone's head regarding the SA, EVER. So I don't even know what kind of traumatic response she had, because she seemingly never thinks about it and it seemingly doesn't impact her thoughts or actions or relationship with Hades at all!! When I see people adding stuff like hypersexuality or body positivity to LO, I feel like they're projecting what they want onto LO vs what's actually there. Since the storytelling is consistently vague it's almost designed to be that way. Thank you for the comment, I 100% agree with you and I'm sorry that happened to you.
@@pyrrhic_victoria I wasn't even expecting a response :0 thanks for reading it! I've been hearing your podcast while working for some days now, and I really like it! Keep the good work! (Edited because I misspelled a word haha)
And another thing I'd add is that Persephone isn't _trying_ to be sexy most of the time (AKA what people think a hypersexual trauma response is). The panels are framed in a way that sexualizes her, while she just exists within those panels; shes barely even experienced when it comes to sex ("'Sleeping your way to the top'? That sounds lazy!"), which adds and extra layer of ick. From what I can tell this sexualization begins long before her assault (take the club scene w/ Hades ogling her, I believe that takes place before the assault).
Wow, I love how youre not just “hating on it” but actively giving better solutions for alot of the pacing/character issues. Particularly your take on the relationship with Demeter/Persephone. I would love to read some of your work, its clear you two have a real passion for characterization and good storytelling
Thanks so much for watching and thank you for such a nice comment! For us, it's kind of easy to just blindly hate or nitpick something but it's much harder to acknowledge the inherent merits to a premise and try to see how to rework the material. Lore Olympus didn't get popular because it was always bad! The elements of good storytelling and good art were present in the series from the beginning, and it's a shame that it ended up squandered so badly. That's so sweet of you to say about our work! We will add our webtoon profile to our page for anyone who's interested to check out :)
yeah, thats a big part of why i enjoy this series of videos. it’s not just “lol lore olympus bad,” theyre giving constructive criticism and talking about how it could be made into a more effective story
I feel like Apollo should have been the one to take the paparazzi's eye out as an act of possessiveness over persephone. If you *really* wanted Hades to learn the "don't white knight" lesson you could have had it so he *was* planning to sue the shit out of the nymph (still overreacting but not literally torture). But then persephone comes in upset and complains about how her social life at school was destroyed because someone decided "avenge" her and now everyone is scared of her and may even think she did it. Hades could see how upset persephone is and see that she doesn't want to be defended in such a way he could also be disgusted at the actions taken, but also come to the realization that suing a college student into oblivion isn't much different and calls off his plans. Then he can *actually* help persephone through a tough time by asking her what she wants to do, and when persephone says she wants to help the nymph, he can use the resources at his disposal to either 1. Get the og eye back somehow 2. Get a new eye 3. Get a fake eye
i, like persephone, was r*ped when I was still a virgin and a teenager and related to that bit of her storyline. my abuser is almost EXACTLY like apollo in the webcomics and it was triggering but also calming to see someone who could relate to me and my situation. that being said, I REALLY hate how long it's taking for them to actually develop a plotline when it comes to her genuine feelings on her assault, not just the surface level stuff. there is SO. MUCH. that goes into something so traumatic, especially for those of us who had no control of our first sexual experience, instead having it stolen away from us by people with power over us. I genuinely hope we get a view on her raw emotions about it. I also hate that hades is a side plot for her SA. after my r*pe, guys threw it in my face left and right in order to get me to sleep with them, the whole "oh I'd never treat you like that and I can help you forget" nonsense, and like persephone, I was young and naive so it worked. in my opinion hades is being used as that sort of plot line: "I'd never treat you like that" blah blah blah in order to get her in bed. idk I just feel like all of this couldve been handled so much better. (that's literally the only part of persephones character I can relate to tho. I find it hard to like her at times. I'm more of a hecate type, but I may just be biased because we have similar personalities and shes my favorite goddess.) i have heard that webtoon is extremely controlling over stories and their plot once they get to a certain point and the creator signs a contract to partner with them, so I'm hoping that's one of the reasons why the plotline has been very....bland...as of late.
Honestly, something that irks me in particular about RS is that she once tweeted a vent about criticism against her comic. She said that it felt like people were unfairly criticizing a half finished story, and made up a metaphor where she was halfway done building a bridge, and the critics say "this bridge is bad, I could walk right off it!" So yeah, basically lamenting about people judging the story for the dropped and unfinished plot threads, I presume, just going off that tweet, and she was trying to defend herself by basically saying "I'm not done yet, guys!! Of course these plot points are going somewhere!! It's not a finished product yet!!" BUT IT'S TAKING TOO LONG, RACHEL. You can't set up something in season one then placate impatient critics by saying itll be resolved in season 3.
Yeah her social media is... something else. We're staying away from personal critiques or speculation for the most part except where it's egregious, like the inclusion of the DDLG angle, but I'm well aware of the sheer volume and tone of her sm activity, particularly her tweets. Her complaint about the story not even being finished isn't valid, because looking at single seasons exposes just how wonky and poorly constructed the majority of the set up and pay off is. And recently she even completely wrote off Eros and Psyche, the secondary romance and her once claimed deuteragonists, *off screen.* You don't have to wait until something's finished to realize it's completely lost the plot. Just look at LOST. By season 3 it was pretty clear the writers were just making it up as they went along...badly (because you could theoretically fly by the seat of your pants and write something good, but it's significantly harder than having a plan). Thanks for watching and thanks for the comment!
1:07:35 This is why I hate “MoDeRn FeMiNiSt ReTeLlInGs” of the Hymn of Demeter. The story is about a woman who’s daughter is victimized by powerful men and she’s able to eek out a small triumph over them by going full Liam Neeson Taken. It represents the tragedy of the way so many women at the time (and still to this day) forcefully lose their precious daughters to male exploitation and feel so utterly powerless. Then modern writers twist that story to villainize the mother, frame the story so the victim really wanted it, the kidnapper/abuser is actually a heroic, hot, and misunderstood sad boy. And basically turn it into another generic “fifty shades” style power imbalance romance. It would be like if a thousand years from now if people made trashy retellings of game of thrones and made Sansa Stark like so totally into bad boy misunderstood Ramsey Bolton, but Jon Snow was being an annoying overprotective bad brother for getting in the way of the OTP. (Tortured metaphor I know. And even that wouldn’t have the added misogamy of making the main woman into a bad guy for just wanting her freaking child back.)
I've been reading Lore Olympus for four years and the only 'good' thing about it is the criticism that comes from within the community. it's hard to come across a fan page on Instagram that hosts unfiltered opinions, because some fans either get very defensive when any ounce of criticism is thrown at the comic or are actually young, teenage girls who read the comic. I, personally, hate how trauma is never an excuse for anything is the status quo for antagonists but when it's the protagonists, the author feels like they have to jump through hoops to make the character still a good person and never actually suffer from the consequences of their actions because nothing bad can happen to the main character. Persephone has no agency that doesn't revolve around Hades. Any character who doesn't ship and/or doesn't like hades and Persephone is a bad guy and only gets a redemption arc if they have a convenient/contrived reason to like them again, with the exception of Minthe. Minthe's character currently is the only one whose life isn't revolving around what H+P is doing, she's actually doing her own thing that doesn't even focus on the main storyline and that was a way of concluding her arc. Meanwhile, after her big (and badly written) fight with Kronos and fusion dancing with hades to rebuild the underground, after Kronos took control of the underworld as a direct result of Persephone being banished after the trial, Hades tells Persephone to take it easy, forcing her to the sidelines, and she's not even given an interesting b plot o follow in the fast pass episodes (spoilers). Persephone wants to go into a lingerie store and she runs into Daphe and Eros who asks her if she's boned hades yet. They're both so down bad for each other at this point it's unbearable. Demeter is gonna be the big bad of the final season. She going to be the 'irrational woman' who can't accept that Persephone's grown up when Demeter has missed important milestones in Persephone's life that she should have been a part of. I hope Rachel doesn't botch how Persephone has to split her time between the mortal realm because there's actually a really nice set-up for how that can fit into the story. In an earlier chapter, Hades mentions how he can't spend too much time out of the Underworld or else he'll become weak. Persephone grew a tree in Tartarus after Minthe led her on a wild goose chase. The tree Persphone grew caused Kronus to rise up and try and take over. For the safety of all three realms, Persephone can't realistically permanently reside in the underworld because she can literally make tyrants raise from the dead. Sorry for word vomiting in your comment section, I really like lore Olympus and I just finished all three of your videos and appreciate your analysis.
@@randymilo212 the pomegranate is a very contrived plot device and the only conclusion i can draw as to why rachel references pomegranates is that they were present in the original myth and it's lazy world building. It's not a really well defined plot device in the narrative. It's supposed to be a play on apple products. It's revealed later that hephaestus, god of the forge, cut off his immediate family to live in the underworld to help hades develop the pomegranate technology making all technology produced in the underworld. The pomegranate that both Hades and Persephone have both consumed ties them to the underworld yes, but it doesn't forbid hades and persephone from leaving they just get weaker and drained the longer they're away from the underworld. The pomegranate is located in Ereberus the god of literal darkness. He doesn't have a physical form, which is really boring. I like the character designs and caricatures of nature rachel gave her characters who were based on locations in mythology like the river styx. It's also revealed that by eating the pomegranate you're cursed but the details of the curse are vague but you have control over the underworld. Persephone eats the pomegrante and becomes queen of underworld, without having to marry hades, but it is eventually expected if them as predetermined by destiny or some other future retcon bullshit. She molly whops Kronus, gets some new powers introduced that obviously aren't being kept track of. There seems to be a misconception that all the olympians have a titan form when only zeus, poseidon, and hades are the only ones in the text are direct descendants of titans whereas hera, hestia and demeter were created by metis. They were written this way to specifically avoid the incest in the original mythology. There's a lot of gross and icky stuff in the subtext of the story that if lore olypmus were written in a different media, if it were a book with no pictures or a screen play there's no way anyone would say it's actually good. Because all you see is 40 year old man crushing like a school boy over his barely legal employee with no agency or awareness. The art inconsistancy is also ridculous. It's recently been revealed that hades is 7 feet tall while persephone is supposed to be 5 feet. She's supposed to come up to at least below his chest but she's always at crotch height. Persephone is very child coded and the story does nothing to hide it. from the way she's suddenly drawn without her big boobs in panels where she's next to hades, the way she acts like a child around hades, and how she's coddled by hades constantly. Hades claims to think persephone terrifying and not underestimate her power but that's exactly what he's doing in current time in the plot. He's hiding behind the fact that he doesn't want her to see the state of the realm but what better time to start being a queen then when everything is in disarray? Thise are just my thoughts. Like i said i just really like lore Olympus it's one of my hyperfixations and i like chiming in with my 2 cents. Hope this was entertaining have a good one ✌️
Yep, hard agree with everything you called out. A big portion of the fanbase IS toxic, not just because they're teenage girls but also because Rachel has inculcated this whole "woe is me, working on LO is so hard" persona. She basically sympathy tweets for hours a day at this point, and that can't be overlooked. At the end of the day, though, she's a millionaire off of this comic and it's still being posted - if she's made the money and she doesn't feel like working on it, why not quit? Or why not hire a ghost writer? The best characters in LO are the ones who aren't constantly kissing HxP's asses, like Minthe, Thanatos, Demeter, and Thetis. Yeah, Thetis is scummy but she's entertaining and has a personality. Everyone else just comes off as a weird satellite drone obsessed with Hades and Persephone for no discernable reason. It's very off-putting. At this point, I wouldn't consider the main character to be Persephone because we hardly see how she thinks and she comes off as empty and hollow the majority of the time, existing purely to be lusted after by all the male gods. Hades gets way more development and screen time monologuing; I really consider Hades to be the main character. His 2,000 year old trauma is even treated more seriously than Persephone's assault that happened days ago. You also make a lot of good points about the stupid botched Kronos plot - and I can't wait to cover that travesty and see Pyrrhic's reaction to how it all plays out lol Thanks for the comment and thanks for watching!
The pomegranate thing is the biggest clue for how lazy and thoughtless the world building is for this series and also how everything hinges on contrivances. There is no real inspiration or heed taken from the OG myths (which is fine, but then tell Rachel to stop acting like a "folklorist") except weird throwaway references or ham-fisted anvils like the pomegranate. I have been covering the art episode by episode from episode 207 in ridiculously petty reddit posts if you're interested btw - here's the first art post I made on LO: www.reddit.com/r/UnpopularLoreOlympus/comments/wv3r6q/breaking_down_the_art_decline/ The Unpopular Lore Olympus subreddit in general is a great place to go for people who are more critical of the series.
Persephone was an important character to me, I was just coming to terms with the fact that I had been assaulted. I felt confused because it wasn't a big thing, I was just inappropriately touched by someone really close to me. I was so confused because I didn't stop it, I didn't even blame them for it, I made excuses for them, I felt ashamed. I related so much to Persephone, I would go over the scene where she stood up to Apollo because I wanted to do that. She helped me come to terms with my feelings, but now I can't even relate to her at all. She's lost all the charm she had to me.
I'm sorry that happened to you. I really hate how poorly handled this aspect/plot of LO is. It's one of the most aggravating parts of the series for me, along with the omnipresent oversexualization and misogyny in a work aimed at kids.
@@pyrrhic_victoria Yeah, I realised just how poorly it was handled when I was out of that zone, and LO just didn't treat the subject with the respect it needs. Persephone became too unrelatable after chapter 100. During the trial arc she completely lost what made her special to me. The over-sexualisation of her also became a big problem for me, especially since she was a character. Persephone's character just became weird to me over time.
Glad you're enjoying our commentary!!! Hope we can keep up the jokes...some of the stuff that happens later you can only joke about because it's otherwise just too infuriating hahaha
The whole thing with Persephone and Apollo is really not needed in my eyes tbh. I liked the idea of the canvas version where Apollo was supposed to be her first boyfriend or something like that, but you could clearly see him being a jerk. Why would they make him so obsessed with her out of the fcking blue? Like it might makes sense he was just interested in her because she’s pretty and only wants one night or whatever and yeah, then forces himself upon her because he won’t view her as anything other than a way to get sex . Like why did they have to make him want to marry her? Because of her fetility goddess status? And then he is made to act as if he’s a delusional that is waaay too exagerated, like they really are trying hard to make him as ahole. The whole SA thing wasn’t necessary at all, but ofc they had to put some kind of shocking situation for Persephone so you feel more empathy towards her and you see later Daddy Hades be her knight ready to rwscue her ofc. And ano tu er thing I don’t understand is why nobody is doing anything with Apollo. It’s a stupid plot, handled in a way that is fcking ridiculous.
Yeah it seems like the creator didn't know what she wanted to do with him. After the SA he's not that interested in Persephone except he kinda acts like it didn't happen, and then all of a sudden it escalates to "be my co ruler" out of nowhere. There's literally no in-text explanation for his obsession except maybe the fertility goddess thing making men obsessed with her? But holy victim blaming, batman, if that's the case! I think the SA thing was done on a whim and then the creator was like "oh crap, I don't actually want to write Persephone as traumatized!" Because then her eagerness to get with Hades makes no sense - Apollo is her first experience with sex now, so why is she so hot for Hades?? It's also hilarious because Hades and Apollo are even written similarly, so why wouldn't that intimidate/scare her?? There was just no thought at all, and it's like you said - thrown in for cheap drama and contrived sympathy with an otherwise empty, hollow character. Thanks for watching and leaving a comment! :)
@@pyrrhic_victorianp, thank you for your reply and so glad to find someone agreeing with the story. I'd like to leave another comment with something that I also see a lot in this webtoon and is the sexualization of Persephone. So I rewatched a bit of the last part where you both are talking about how Persephone is so sexualised and is supposed to be what the target audience (teens to young women should be the audience, sometimes not even including teens anymore). I want to say first that I think that Persephone is a way for Rachel to project on the character. I follow this story since a long time back when author was in tumblr posting the webtoon before it got to webtoon itself. So she posted a lot of extra doodles of Persephone and Hades, being cute-sy or having sexual tension in some way. (Ex. Persephone being drawn in a very scandalous dress, her back is towards the audience and the biggest thing in this drawing was her ass. Hades was basically so horny that Zeus came in a later panel to tell Persephone off because how dare she go with this kind of dress) In a lot of Q&A she did she is always saying she likes Hades the most, then Persephone, commented stuff like Hades being a dream boyfriend and she talked a bit about how their dynamic was atractive to her. So I think that this kind of May/ December type of romance (Young, naive girl and way older, dark and handsome and cinical man smitten by girl) is very appealing to many women, mostly middle age and teens. Middle age women who are constantly told that the younger the better they look. And we ourselves believe so too so many times... it is what you see on media and tv so it's ingrained on many women I believe, when it comes to watching romance movies it is incredibly ridiculous plot and a very toxic relationship that only works in fiction. I would say I don't have a problem with this since it is fiction and people should know how to differentiate fiction over reality. Teens however see this and might have problems... but idk, I think teens know nothing of this kind of thing and have to learn either way through their experiences. I feel like people that enjoy this comic are projecting their fantasies. The fantasy of being forever young, very very hot and sexy but oblivious of their appeal (such a fcking cliche, and Rachel herself Persephone was like this) teens fantasize of having this kind of attention coming from a handsome, rich gentleman who will treat you like a queen. The reality of this is much different. So Persephone is drawn to almost always having her big tatas out, mid thigh also out of her dress/shorts. It's funny how Thetis gets a comment like this from Minthe and the readers are like "yeah, she is a total sl*t", while Persephone I guess it's ok because she is sexy but classy and has the right to wear whatever she wants no matter what, no matter her personality or characterisation which also says something about the awful character design that she has. Because Rachel also said answering a Q&A that she picks up Persephone's outfits of things she sees on pinterest and that she likes. Clothes should mean something when it comes to character design, and Persephone is a sheltered young girl coming from the mortal realm where she is only wearing the traditional Greek garment that they wear in that time no? Suddenly she comes to Olympus where the clothes are waaaaaaaaay different, she has to borrow clothes from Artemis and how was that iconic first look on Persephone? SHe looked uncomfortable the whole time, trying to cover her whole ass and a bit of her chest because that dress was so short it was almost impossible to contain either of these 2 body traits of hers. And so tell me how she has fashion sense the whole comic then when she would be used to wear another type of clothing. And the excuse here is that people bought her clothes. Eros, Daphne and even Hades later. It's weird, you're telling me Persephone is saying things like "I like Hades because he's not treating me like a child" (and this is another thing that I think it's total BS btw) she wants to be independent, Rachel wants her to be this way but at the same time not really. It's a fantasy of the author, it makes 0 sense. It's ok if you want to have some kind of self-insert in a story. It's ok to project. It's just very hurtful story-wise in my eyes because things like this happen. It's very contradictory to character design, to the ethics used on different characters in comparison and they're being drawn sexual, hot, "perfect", they're always good and have no flaws and if they actually have flaws it is the influence of something or someone else (ex. Act of Wrath and Persephone, not sure if you guys read the comic but is basically Persephone having no fault in anything, she should never be confronted of anything let alone punished, she is a good cinnamon roll who does nothing bad, can't hurt a fly etc etc.) In summary: the story is a fanfic of Hades and Persephone, Persephone being the author's projecting her fantasies wanting to be forever young, sexy and hot, desired by every guy. Edit: Sorry for the very long comment lol I actually was a fan of author's drawings and followed her webtoon just because of her art but the story has always seemed very corny to me, yet it had some potential, now not only is the story so bad for me, the art is...=_=. People for real pay 7 coins for fastpass for this comic and it's embarrassing. Or the physical books. Which I bought 1. And I hated the layout of the panels and everything.
@@tiquismistica9417 dude I agree with everything you said and you laid it out so well. I've read through the whole thing but Pyrrhic hasn't and I agree completely with it being a wish fulfillment self insert fanfic basically. That's what makes the story so lacking in stakes unfortunately, as interesting stories usually arise from conflict but Rachel can't bear to include anything bad happening to the main characters or for their flaws to be recognized and impact the story. We plan to do these videos for the whole series and I'm sure a lot of your points will be echoed as we go on. By episode 100 though this is very apparently the biggest issue with Lore Olympus. Thanks for watching and leaving a comment!
I wish I could remember the quote on "should you include rape in a story" - the TLDR is that it really isn't 90% of the time. It's especially bad in romance- it's usually used to force a pairing together through trauma, or worse, used by the main paring and framed as romantic. Why not just have a bad relationship? He can even still be a controlling creeper without the actual assault One of the reasons it's a bad idea is that the aftermath is glossed over. All you need is your OTP and all those mental scars go away, which is really trivializing.
I think TGOEM plot point was very poorly handled. If I could tweak the story, I'd have Demeter send Persephone away to college to (secretly) have her find a suitable husband, capable of not exploiting Persephone's fertility goddess abilities. [OR have the conflict involve Demeter exploiting her daughter's abilities, which could reference the original myth, in which Hades kidnaps Persephone]. If everyone acknowledged fertility goddesses, the story would be a little less ridiculous. Zeus covering up their significance is silly, but then again, so is Zeus' character, overall. If Zeus is so power hungry, why isn't his character more intimidating?
I’m writing my own rewrite of Lore Olympus, and I love what you said about visual storytelling and how Persephone’s nature motif undermines her trauma as a character. I think Persephone really needed a “What Else Could I Do?” moment like Isabella in Encanto had. Show that nature can be beautiful, but it can be rough, sharp, imperfect. Brutal even. Make her rage ugly.
"it's been a week in the comic but almost two years in real life" and there's why I stopped reading less than 30 chapters in 😭 as soon as I caught up things just took way too long to happen
Yeah it's really strange and ridiculous when you start thinking about it! I think there's even multiple points where Rachel herself confuses the timeline and implies that months have passed rather than less than three weeks! Thanks for commenting!
@@pyrrhic_victoria I normally like things that take their time like a slice-of-life but any interesting things she could make happen just _don't_ happen. It's just a slow crawl from one beat to another and occassionally a beat is completely skipped lmao I started forgetting everything that was supposed to be going on. I'm glad UA-cam put you guys on my home page, I love these videos. My winter vacation is coming up at the end of the month and I'm excited to sit down and read what you guys have put out so far! Proof that creators care this much about what they do is the best motivation for me to see their work
@@pyrrhic_victoria REAL, I was reading a newish chapter where Persephone is older, 29 I think, and Zeus said she only knew Hades for a week meanwhile, I thought months had passed, I was shooketh
One of my favorite things about your videos is that you don't just criticize the flaws of the comic, you also offer solutions as to how they could have been better because you can acknowledge it isn't enough to just say, "Thing bad."
Thanks for the comment and the compliment :) For us it's really entertaining to try to think of how to execute what the author intended to do, or even how to take a promising premise and alter it so it lives up to its full potential. This approach also is the best way to come up with ideas for your own stories, as you can easily turn a rewrite into a fully fledged original ideas. That's how I think of most of my stories, anyway!
Hearing you talk about how unimportant the lyre is made me realise how out of character Apollo is. Its been a while since I've read up on Greek Mythology or Lore Olympus, so I could be missing something, but from my memory Apollo is the god of; - the sun - music (hence the lyre but you already explained its insignificance) - poetry/plays - archery - medicine/healing - oracles and yet barely any of these are integrated into his character. Sure later in the series there's a scene with him doing archery (he shoots Daphne I think?) and maybe you could compare his car to his chariot (since he would pull the sun into the sky) but that's about it. He's not even Apollo he's just some jerk oc at this point, which I feel just shows how poor the writing is.
This series has massive pacing issues, especially in terms of serious issues like assault and even relationships And it is weird that Persephone is so hyper-sexualized in any and all situations. There's a lot of references to mythology (the lyre, the pomegranate) etc, but the series pretty much only works if you don't have knowledge or attachment. Who is this series for? Rick Riordan tends to make all these references plot relevant- he repurposes events, characters, etc into the plotline, but they're not cameos. The hatred of Demeter and idolization of Hades as the "better choice" really infuriates me. It's a complete 180 on the original story but has misogynistic undertones. The comic forces two characters together but instead of using the slow burn to actually show why they can get together, there's just meandering plots that don't do anything padding it out. Remember, it's okay when Hades does it. The mutilation is totally justified because it's Hades. This is absolutely ddlg LOL Apollo the Black Knight
The worst thing about the plot is the pacing and the sheer number of plots that have little to no setup, so they just enter and exit at will and you're supposed to keep up with it all. It's insane reading it all in one go and actually thinking about it because there's so many times where the plot will actually *contradict* itself based on what came before. It makes you wonder if Rachel is even reading her own comic between episodes. Persephone isn't a character, she's a vehicle for self insert wish fulfillment, and I guess the unspoken "wish" is to be a playboy bunny that all the boys want (a la Michael Bay's women). It's definitely...something.
The part where you were talking about how it influences young girls thinking that their first internship would go like this gave me a flashback. I grew up reading lots of shojo manga and thought “wow! I want a protective and possessive boyfriend and I want them to grab and kiss me” ect. BOY WAS I WRONG! Not only that, since I was the only girl amongst a group of boys who read manga with me they definitely tried to imitate some problematic behavior. Definitely did not give me the butterflies I was expecting.
There's so many interesting concepts, but they never delve into them in any meaningful or interesting ways, and I cannot stand the babyfication of Persephone. She's a goddess, not a 5 year old, and it's gross how her childishness is hypersexualized. You can have a chaste woman who isn't naïve and unaware of herself, but that might be too much of a character for the LO writers to handle.
Yeah there's nothing wrong with a naïve or inexperienced main female character; the worst part about it in LO's case is that it comes off as explicitly sexualized/fetishized BECAUSE of her lack of experience, which is troubling to say the least. Thanks for the comment!
Thank you both for making this series!! It's honestly therapeutic to hear your analysis about the mechanics behind why so many things in this series feel so .. icky? Yeah, I'm going to go with icky. I binged this story this year, and remembered being vaguely interested in the re-contextualization of the r*** of Persephone as a social media mis-understanding. Plus it was so bright and colorful and easy to fly through. But it just kept ickier and ickier as it went on. And the more time that passed after putting it down, the worse everything came off on reflection. Everything from just changing the assailant in the story from Hades to Apollo, to the uncomfortable way we always have to look at Persephone, to the ABSURD framing about what to take seriously and what not - this was blindingly obnoxious even while reading it - to absolutely every single thing Minthe (I am so, so confused why fans don't like her - she is the most sympathetic character by a landslide), to the way Persephone and Hades interact, to Smythe's blatant lack of self-awareness regarding the social issues of her own world. The way class differences were constantly swept under the rug like all poor people are evil and unjustified was why I had to quit the story. I wasn't rooting for the protagonists at all. I didn't care about their lives. I didn't feel bad for them. I didn't want them to succeed. I didn't want them to end up together. And the weirdest part is that I *think* I'm the type of person that's theoretically supposed to feel represented here. The softer, less confrontational sort of that internalizes trauma instead of externalizing it. And there were little beats of the story I recognized in myself - like being in a terrible situation and that just coming out as sass (the crepes scene). But I'm not empowered by this story, I'm disturbed by it. And I don't relate to Persephone, I think she's an idiot. Who also acts like a 5 year old or that one friend with the relationship drama so dumb you will do anything in the world not to hear about it. Over time, I find this story bothers me more and more and it's disturbing to see the sheer quantity of accolades and money being poured into distribution right now. There are so many special editions of this free web-novel being printed it has become a collectors item already. But there are so many horrifying elements being glorified that I thought modern media had taken a more critical lens to in recent years. Yet the reception is so rose colored, it's frustrating. Really appreciate your insights and explanations about all the intentional and background choices made behind the construction of these problems.
Honestly I'm obsessed with the LO deep dive you're making and I really hope you get more recognition for that, because it seems like a lot of people have a pathological fear of saying how bad LO really is. And don't get me wrong, I've already read it 3 times and for a loooong time considered my guilty pleasure, 'cause there's no shame in liking bad stuff, you can do it, but some sh*t is really hard to ignore and is the reason I don't lik the series anymore. The most important thing about LO that I absolutely hate is how Rachel handles violence. Please, if you want gods to have acts of wrath, so commit to it, don't make a fluffy fucking pastel neon comic and put (when is convenient for you) a freaking TW in one episode or another, when you think the situation must be taken serious!!! As a survivor of multiple instances of SA and p3do I was totally offended by the way she tackled this subject, and not because Persephone's reaction is different from mine, bc every survivor has their own process, but becaus this topic and its consequences were handled SO POORLY OMG I'M ENRAGED JUST THINKING ABOUT IT. Ares, Thanatos and Hermes had so potential to be better than all of the chars in the story but the writing sucks and the overall plot (what plot?) is terrible. My friend bought the first volume of the fisical comic, read it, and told me she didn't understand a single thing, and she's a super fan of retelling of mythology, and a fan of PJO from Rick Riordan. As a (amateur) writer, not of comics, but books (props to you both tho, comics are really hard, and my digital drawing sucks), I hope that when I get published, I don't let the fame - if this ever comes - get in the way of me telling a good and respectful story to my readers. Well thats it for now, I'm sending this channel to all of my friends here in Brazil, see you in the next one guys
I don't know if its just me but when hades calls Poseidon to bring Apollo down to the motel realm, combined with our past knowledge of Apollo's actions and how Poseidon refers to it, it kinda feels like Hades is pushing Apollo to go and harass mortal women which is a really dark and abusive path for him to take.
Great series, I’ve been enjoying it so far. I wanted to just comment on Zeus’ mortal realm girlfriend, if anyone is actually curious of the origin myth. Although I have read a lot about this, there may be some inaccuracies due to poor memory. That’s Semele, princess of Thebes, aunt of Pentheus (of murdered by his own mother in the Bacchae fame) and Dionysus’ mother, at least in quite a few myths (depending on how you look at Zagreus’ relation to Dionysus, Persephone is one of his mothers as well). The reason Zeus comments on her behaviour like that is because she is often presented as a bit ‘mad’, either via her family not believing her story about Zeus or, if I recall correctly, having some Maenad (Dionysus followers who do some rather intense ritual worship) tendencies in written poems like the Dionysiaca, where she sacrifices a bull with her bare hands. I dunno if Lore Olympus will address this, but Hera ‘tricks’ her into begging Zeus to reveal his true form (which he does because Greek God moment, he made a promise) and she just. Dies. And Zeus has to put the baby into his thigh bc that’s where the Greeks thought manliness juice was stored. My guess (and hope) is that the entire inclusion was to confirm Dionysus was not born yet. I am praying it will not go the Zagreus route, because his origin is pretty fantastical and messed up.
Thanks for the insight! Man Greek myths are wild!!! The thigh manly juice hahaha 🤣 I doubt LO will address it because she seems to have realized that she's bitten off more than she can chew myth-wise, and it's just another dropped plot/character like the furies, echo, psyche, etc.
”thigh" has been a euphemism for genitals since biblical times so i dont think the Greeks were ignorant about the role of the testes, just being more discreet.
had to pause this to have a proper laugh at “his IQ drops to the temperature of the underworld” 💀 currently binging these videos, you guys are putting all my feelings into words 👏🏼
Your outfits! I can't get over how put together & individual they are. I'm very happy you two decided to set up a camera and not just make this an audio only podcast And this is my favorite title thus far
As the chapters went by , the less and less I liked persephone as a person and as a character. Either make her manipulative with the appearance of innocence. Or make her innocent with stronger morals , or something consistent. She is often very mean and underhanded while the story presents her as likable. She really isn't. The most sympathy o had for her was the controversial s.a theme and even that was used to push something unsavory. Again, hate how demwter is presented , and I hate the purity culture aspect in all this. Its weird how she intentionally sexy but doesn't know she's sexy but is super flirty but pullback but tottaly wants to hang with a taken man. And persephone has hurt a lot of people that didn't deserve it or were overpunished. Ans she's an enabler of hades as long as it benefits her. Persephone:"oh no. Hades uses slave labor. What a bummer. I'm anti capitalism but ill overlook this because I like him. Oh, he ripped someone eye out for me? Why are you being mean to me about it? I didn't make him." Only consistent thing about her is her mean streak. Also , thank you for pointing out the Athena and hestia thing for the maidenhood thing. That was frustrating as hell. Like , is it romantic? Or is it sexual too? Does it still go against the maidenhood thing if its strictly romantic but nosexual? Or them being gay is the loophole? The LGBT rep in this ain't all that great. Part od that could be advertising ans moderation but still.
Yeah Persephone definitely fits the "born sexy yesterday" trope but ONLY around Hades. She reminds me of one of those girls who has two different personalities: one for the guys she's attracted to, and one for everyone else. If the comic was self aware, this might have been a really interesting, manipulative, ruthless heroine. But it's not - the narrative keeps trying to insist that Persephone is as Pure as a Disney Princess (there's that darn purity culture again!) and is the nicest bestest girl ever! But when have we ever seen her be perfectly nice to someone when there's nothing in it for her? In fact, we're shown the opposite a lot! It's wild that all of this was written totally unintentionally! The Athena and Hestia thing - someone on reddit was saying that was a reference to the fact that Greeks apparently didn't think homosexual relations between women "counted" as sexual activity, but the Greeks also didn't think women were people - I don't think it's right to just slip antiquated notions into the comic as a "wink wink" without explaining what you're doing (IF that's the case)? If it's not the case, then whoo whee do we have some issues either with how the creator views lesbian relationships or with the fact that apparently Hestia is a massive hypocrite!! But it's never addressed in the story!! Thanks for leaving a comment!
@@pyrrhic_victoria in RS old Tumblr someone said: "you can be a virgin and have lady sex". Rachel said: "I see Hestia as asexual but slowly becoming gay over time" 🤢
@@jessnalulila5552 yikes thats some shit right there, especially with becoming gay over time like NO if you are ace you are ace, maybe you coud think you're ace to start cause you dont like guys and then realize oh wait actually i like women (not very likely imo), But you are not Born ace then you become anything else seriously wtf
2:23:06 Sleeping on the floor could symbolize she doesn't feel safe in her bed where the assault happened. But that would be an element of good writing which we're very unaccustomed to seeing so I'm not surprised y'all were confused.
the lyre is Apollo's sacred instrument, so for it not come up as something important and something he values as much as his own life, is very weird. if they had, damaging it would have been absolutely perfect. but never before mentioning his sacred instrument? nope. it's not where it's at
I feel silly, because I thought Persephone's height seemed smaller than before, but I didn't look. I do remember when I first read it, I thought her and Hades acted too familiar with their first meeting. If Hades was short, balding with a stained shirt, him calling her sweetness would've been creepy to everybody
All of this sounds so exhausting and just makes me want to listen to hadestown again because that one at least accepts that all the gods are garbage and bad relationships make for interesting and emotional drama exactly for that... thanks to anaïs mitchell's actual folklore ballad background. Whatever rachel's doing with her h&p is so tiring. Thanks for the Peach Girl rec at the end, sounds like a good palate cleanser too!
Peach Girl has its own problems/it's not perfect but it's a good dramatic romantic series, highly entertaining imo! It doesn't pretend to be anything more than it is either and the stakes stay pretty grounded
I think Lore Olympus relies a lot on people having major greek mythology prior knowledge especially when it involves certain details. I think LO doesnt do the best job of explaining some of the lore parts of greek mythology to an audience that more likely doesnt have that kind of prior knowledge.
Okay but if you try to look at it from the viewpoint of actual linguistic-historical interest in mythologies, it's even more insufferable as it already is...
this series is so great because honestly i dropped off before season 1 finished but ive kind of been keeping up with lore olympus on and off and its so fun to hear both you opinions on the series and improvements ect you're both doing great work! also the whole part about apollo literally had me in tears. the first time i read the series i didn't realize how poorly written his obsession with persephone was, but it really is comical when you put everything together. he's seriously such a weird character. him being written as being super delusional about their relationship is so poorly written also he really just acts lost and confused honestly. maybe hes just the first comic shitty ex boyfriend apollo and he's hopped into current lore olympus so he doesnt get what hes doing wrong lmao
When Pyrrhic pointed out just how robotic and repetitive he is and how weird it is, I laughed out loud! His actions are really bizarre and make no sense - I can't understand why someone would act like that unless they were possessed
@@pyrrhic_victoriaWhat if he was possessed, though... by Kronos! If Ouranos can use Apollo as a vessel, couldn't Kronos? If everyone's thirsting over fertility goddesses, that could be interesting.
i can say one if autor wanted actually make smth like forbidden love she did not actually had to put this age gap thing or make per 19 i mean persephone its a one of virgin goddess who cant be in relationship right? so such god actually falls in-love when she SHOULD NOT and she CANT. be with him. so here u already have Content of forbidden love. why the age gap was FOR!!?? for make ppl uncomfortable?? congrats Rachel you did your job :)
Dude, it's so weird - in literally every way the relationship can be forbidden, it is. Boss-employee? Check! Rich-poor? Check! Age gap? Check! Sophistication/Class gap? Check! Experienced and virgin/pure? Check! I don't know why - maybe it's because the creator doesn't want to put any real personality clashes or personal issues between the two so she has to create all of these weird barriers from the outside to make the relationship "interesting?" But a 40+ yo man and a teen isn't interesting, it's just creepy!! Thanks for commenting!
I definitely agree with both of your critiques of Apollo's characterization, it's a mess both in the downgrade of Apollo's mythology and also feels off as an abusive predator. I'm not one to talk either as I have never been SA'd or been in an abusive relationship but for my writing, I try my best to look into how those situations happen and the abuser's mindset. Apollo would have moments of being very aggressive and calculative to have Persephone, which could've gone the route of being a possessive misogynist or stalker. Maybe Apollo would have this fantasy of how he wants Persephone to be or how he's had women, but when it's not could lead to aggression or entitlement. That idea could make sense if played right, but then in Lore Olympus, he gets all sad boy or ignorant about why Persephone is turning him down which feels different than how malevolent he was acting during the assault. Not to mention after it, was played up more for shipping moments between Persephone and Hades. I get it there is no specific mindset for abusers, abuse comes in many forms and has different mindsets ranging from the narcissist to the love bomber or whatnot. In writing, it can be hard to know when you're writing it properly, so let's just at least take this as an example of how to not do it. For fellow writers who want to try to improve writing about abusers, I recommend looking into survivors' personal stories and the psychology/cycle of abuse. You can find journals from DV survivors of their perception but also there are psychology documents about the "exhaust/burn out" method, the cycle of abuse, even analysis of conviction abusers in interrogation. Overall, it's better to be real about it, even if it's fiction as it has a big impact.
i’m a lil drunk rn and when you were 58:40 like omg what do the gods even do and you said drinking i went “yaasss” to no one alone in my room LITERALLY PLAYING HADES LMAOO
I think the significance with Persephone looking out to Apollo's car is that she just went to the bathroom to make sure she wasn't pregnant, contemplated going to the clinic to confirm that she wasn't but unsure whether she should then looked out of the window to see his car and decided that she should go to the clinic because she doesn't want to be tied to Apollo AND ultimately that ruins her Saturday because she had to go get checked. It's a hop and a skip and jump and a ferry to get there but they just couldn't convey it that way because "head empty" with Persephone's psyche.
Honestly, Persephone had so much potential as the MC. She had rich background as a village girl, and If writer actualy made her into imperfect teenager with flawed looks and nerdy personality(to add on top of good writing and less objectification), then I might as well started relating to her. Also I dont have much of a problem when story purely focuses on romance and some aspects that affect it. It clearly shows that writers know what they want to write and they're upfront about it LP on the other hand tries to bite more than it can chew. While everything still revolves around main relatiounship, for some reason author still adds unnecessary things that font contribute in abh way. It wastes time and shows that writer cant recognize what ideas might work and what dont. Lastly, I wish there was conflict of Persephone naturally being afraid of Hades, because hes the complete opposite of what she represents. Like, of Persephone is naive, why dont just make her believe in pure evil and good? It whould gave been flawed morality, that us easily crushed by harsh reality that not all people are bad and not all good.
just got into this little critique series but i just wanted to thank you for bringing up how weird minthe is treated in lore olympus. like even when i still kept up with this comic seeing all the aggressive fan backlash against someone as clearly bpd-coded/mentally ill as minthe (especially as someone with bpd) gave me a rancid taste in my mouth, bc if this is how you (general) treat a fictional character (and yeah fiction =/= reality yadda yadda) with a mental illness that isnt just "oh i cant get out of bed" or "oh i cant make an appointment on the phone," god only fucking knows how you treat the actually mentally ill people in your life!
I really appreciate how much time you spend talking about how messed up it is that this is marketed towards young girls. I started reading this comic when I was probably 15 or 16, and it really is so disturbing to look back at it and notice all these things that I didn't pay attention to when I was first reading it.
Apollo's character doesn't really make sense to me just because canon Apollo is more in touch with his feminine side while Artemis is more of the jock. And like he could still be a villain as a theatre kid. Look at phantom of the opera.
Watching a sexual assault victim talk about being pressured to join a cult of virginity and her concerns about if she really wants to do this, and have a literal billionaire king go “yeah I get that. When I inherited an entire kingdom I kind of didn’t want it. That’s the same, right?” The writer knows Persephone was sexually assaulted. Why would you EVER have a “good guy” compare himself to her in that way? It comes off so scummy.
Regarding your words that young girls are not attracted to older men, well... I have a friend (she's 21) who's attracted to older men, BUT 1. She said herself she doesn't feel like that's normal, and feels like she might be compensating the lack of a father figure in her life. 2. she dates guys about her age anyways, and never really took the idea of dating an older man seriously. Sooooo There's that? Just wanted to say that it's not like this doesn't happen, but it shouldn't be romanticized. Especially with all the added context of Persefone being 19, the power gap, Hades's abusive tendencies and all that crap.
If I'm being honest, I never liked immortal characters in the stories. Like, hades is 2000 years old, he could gave gotten over his trauma thousands and thousands of times. By the time LO started he could have reached fuckin nirvana with his knowledge and expirience
3:44:12 I’ve seen lots of young women and girls be attracted to much older guys but I haven’t personally seen any of them pursue anything I’ve seen lots of women **my age** talk about their experiences dating older men but by the time they’re talking about it it’s been years and they’re talking about it as a cautionary tale to other women and girls
Btw, Persephone IS related to Hades. Hades is the brother of Zeus and Poseidon. There's a bit of debate on whose the father, but obviously Demeter is the mom (sister to Zeus, Hades, and Poseidon) and either Zeus or Poseidon are the father of Persephone. So it's a brother and a sister having a kid, then their other brother marries and has children with that grown up kid.
I think they reveal that Poseidon and Demeter had a kid together, who is Persephone's half-brother, but her father is ever explicitly named. I know Rachel Smythe insisted that there is no incest in her Greek pantheon, though (as if that's the most problematic thing about LO hahaha).
3:12:16 funny enough, the Simpsons had an episode about assault and trauma. Where Marge gets robbed on the street and is afraid to leave her house for awhile. I'm sure it hasn't aged super well since the episode was like 10 yrs ago or so, but still. The point still stands that Simpsons can do it well cuz it's actually decently written lol
I never even realised those issues you brought up (perhaps cus of fantasy + extremely slow updates schedule), I'm now a proud hermes × persephone shipper. I personally think their personalities match better anyway,,,
Can't wait for part 4 and for yall to catch up. Hope you continue until the series ends. You point out not only things I already knew and agree with, but things i hadn't even thought of before. I never realized how skewed the storyline is. How events are so disorganized. It's been a while since i read older chapters I guess
*Oh we plan to.* Unfortunately for pyrrhic!!! I'm also currently covering the newest episodes episode by episode in excruciating detail over on Reddit, if you're interested! The tone is more batshit and the focus is more on the art but maybe it'll tide you over until we get to that trainwreck: www.reddit.com/r/UnpopularLoreOlympus/comments/x12zeo/ep_207_all_the_panels_i_laughed_at/? I also wrote a long post specifically on the art decline and what elements contributed the most to the OG LO aesthetic. Thanks again for watching!
@@pyrrhic_victoria Hell yes! I'll check that out right away. The old art was better in some aspects. The anatomy was a bit wonkier in some panels, but overall the colors were better. I find that new LO is very over saturated with colors. It's like RS said "every color needs to be super saturated and vibrant now!!" Hade's place is now all one shade of blue instead of various shades. Persephone's particular pink shade hurts my eyes but that's more of a nitpick. But yeah there's less moody and pale colors
@@devillass6025 Funny you mention that about RS because she has mentioned in interviews that she cranked the colors way up in response to "criticism" that her comic was "too colorful." I agree, the colors really suck now vs the beginning, and it's kinda hilarious to think she did that to spite the critics (?) if that was indeed her primary motivator. The old art was super nice, and it definitely influences my own art in regards to composition, color, and effects.
3:11:25 I've seen this issue in unOrdinary too. I love it and I've been following the series since like 2016 but they have consistent content warnings for language, right? But then in a few chapters where someone is either brutally attacked or killed, there is no warning for that. Not that I mind the violence but having a "parental advisory" warning for only strong language when gore is way worse? Come on, uruchan... 😪
And the lyre is something hermes gave him after he stole his cows as a baby. To appease him he gave him the lyre made out of turtle shell and intestines.
@@jessnalulila5552 especially in the latest FP 💀 RIP old Ares. I guess Rachel had to character assassinate him since he was legit competition for boring Hades??? Who knows!!?
@@pyrrhic_victoria it’s strange though Bc in some episodes after the time skip there is still stuff going on between them, I don’t understand why she keeps inserting it if she isn’t going to make it a second love interest lol
It is so weird how they made the only real plus size leaning character in the show heavily implied to be aromatic solely because she does not date men. Like I crave plus size queer women in media and was somewhat glad Hestia was with Athena later on, but it just feels off to me how the only body variation in this webtoon occurs in characters only if said character is not straight/ not supposed to be attractive to men. In Hecate's case, it very much feels fatphobic.
i think a much more interesting love triangle would have had persephone's character fully lean into the sheltered, naive, dorky country-bumpkin beat and have hades taking advantage of that, meanwhile aries is chaotic and somewhat toxic but is one of the only people in her life without ulterior motives and treats her as an equal (scrap the anger powers bit though obviously). hades truly reads as a humbert humbert type predator who feels emasculated and out of control bc of trauma and issues in his life so he wants to overcompensate control in his relationship with persephone. obviously this would never happen bc it would end up playing out as persephone slowly realizing this relationship with hades is not normal or equal and either ending it or forcing him to take accountability for the shitty things he's done and deal with his problems in a way that isn't just "uwu aww sad boy *hugs* nothing is your fault bc you have trauma" if hades and persephone just HAS to be endgame then i think a more impactful way to write them for people reading who might have experienced real trauma would be to have persephone and hades act as almost foils to each other with how they deal with trauma, with persephone internalizing and hades externalizing, and giving both of them a proper arc separate from the love story where they reconcile that edit: omg i hadn't gotten to the part where they reveal aries is dating aphrodite?! is there anyone who doesn't want to leave their gf for persephone?? 😂😂
Honestly, I remember when the ares reveal first happened, and being thankful that there was finally a character that didn’t treat her like she was made of glass. I would have LOVED to see her actually have honest relationships with other men before settling on Hades, and since she never DOES explore herself outside relationships, or even her own sexuality, we’re left with a really inconsistent character. It’s also really common for people who are sheltered to date at least one person who is edgy, chaotic, and bad for them, and ares would fit that bill. But idk maybe she wakes up and realizes, hey, I don’t like who I am when I’m with this guy who eggs me on to be destructive or whatever. Persephone is literally never allowed to be her own person, and every single character around her forces their fantasies of who they WANT her to be onto her. And the worst part is that we are never given the opportunity to see her actually embrace herself. Which its so weird and creepy that she’s portrayed as manipulative and cunning with men, UNLESS ITS HADES. Then she’s extremely pure and virginal wifey material. Her writing is so inconsistent, and her potential was utterly wasted.
I stayed caught up on lore Olympus until recently. Something just suddenly felt really really off, watching this series makes me think it was the composition dipping. I have a thing where when I start something I feel like I have to finish it, so having ya'lls extensive breakdown and tear through has filled that void for me!
I loved listening to your deconstruction, I've been bingeing it while drawing. Although... it's kinda awkward since my name is also Rachel and every time I hear "Rachel doesn't know how to do this and that" I find it funny. xDDD Hopefully when I make my series I will avoid all the stuff you pointed out. Lack of contingency is honestly my biggest fear in storytelling. Plus boring characters. Plus too many story lines. Lol
Really appreciate you breaking this down, especially towards the end. I was never that invested in this story to begin with so I didn't read very closely or critically at all. But I still find it concerning how much went completely over my head. Had no idea the story was considered YA either.
I frequently saw the YA rating and cringed a little. In one of the earliest chapters, Eros mentions overseeing an orgy. The animations are kiddy-like while the content is inappropriate, at times.
I agree! It'd be more interesting if Persephone and Hades were bonding over being *social outcasts- they could even be antiheroes. I'd even 1. cut Eris' gift of wrath from the plot and 2. have Hades smoothly court Persephone (not have Hades avoiding her via Minthe, cause that's unfair to Minthe). *But then again, Smythe's version of Hades isn't sold as a cold, intimidating, rejected bachelor, YET we're told that almost no one likes him. Hera, Zeus, Poseidon, Hecate, Athena, Nyx, Hebe, Hephaestus, Eris, Ares, etc. are all fond of Hades. Why not 'go the distance' and make him an outright (maybe misunderstood) villain? Demeter is the real social outcast, if anything.
the whole time i was reading lore olympus i kept thinking that minthe would be the one to find out abt persephone’s situation w apollo so it was really dissatisfying to see that go completely nowhere. Artemis and Hera are such nothing characters it would have been nice to see persephone get some more girlfriends on her own
13:36 honestly I didn’t even notice her lack of wrath until you mentioned it And like considering she basically went on a fucking murder spree after her friends died (mostly by accident) at the hands of mortals like It’s odd The gods are known for being terrible in all the best and worst ways and her act of wrath against mortals is something that shows why you should be careful with and respectful of them But there’s nothing like that anywhere else in the story and it’s just Odd EDIT: also in the mythology Minthe becoming a mint plant was divine retribution but in this comic it’s just an accident
1:54:03 I think this is all about the fertility goddess connection. Since Hades and Persephone are in love, or whatever, they'll enhance one another's powers (🚨SPOILER ALERT: Like how Hades became Titan-sized in the midst of the trial).
I read only the first couple chapters of LO out of curiosity way back but immediately dropped it because it was boring and made no sense. It still doesn't make sense. There's gods, but the god world is like our modern world, but the human world is primitive, but the gods talk like modern people with modern technology, but humans worship them and they're living in Ancient Greek times??? Why is there a weird 50 shades thing with Hades being a company CEO, but actually he is still a king of the underworld, but also he runs a company? Why is Persephone 19 but all the other gods are centuries old? Why do they go to school?? Why are there things like Persephone being a cereal brand heiress?? When you die, you go to the underworld and live in a capitalist hellscape working for Hades also??? Why??? WHY ARE THERE PAPARAZZI??? Like jfc the writer can't do world-building to save her life. Just f*cking PICK ONE, stop inserting every stupid trope and fanfic idea into the story. Listening to you describe these later episodes makes me so glad I dropped it so fast because oh my god it is a sh!tshow.
Hearing yall try to contextualize the plot really hammers home the need for planning your story’s ending/important plots beforehand. This story has a real potential for many interesting sub-diversions of tropes/cliches if the author still wants to go that direction, or just not, regardless the way yall pick at it makes it obvious. When I started reading it I fell off quickly. I don’t remember the reason but I think it’s because I got a little impatient waiting for episodes, so I’d wait a few months and binge read, forget what happened, and repeat. Hence I never really got to criticize it. Once the first few meet cute of Hades and Persephone were done it just, eh. Also don’t do Will and Hannibal like that! But could you imagine if LO went the corruption route like Hannibal did- would be interesting. All in all inconsistent characterization really hurts to watch unfold. But what irks me more is the mishandling of important issues planted in the plot. Like, the very least, having a fluffy plot that ignores the severity of a power-imbalance relationship is well, it’s fiction, there’s a crowd for that, but if you’re going to introduce assault, deal with it? And worldbuilding, give readers context for how your world works. Suspension of belief is an author’s friend, just give readers context! I also want to say as a young reader who was in that young demographic for when LO came out, I realized how glossed over the power-imbalance is? I wonder if there’s any good love-stories that are self-aware of their power imbalance trope or at least use it well. If anyone has any suggestions I’d love to read! Like I feel that the themes of the story should be very emphasized. Proper content warnings. Proper marketing. But those also in part boil down to if the story itself handles its themes seriously. A story that gets a huge spotlight gets a huge bout of criticism and love. That’s the other thing- it’s very popular, I’ve seen it be advertised/promoted a lot when I was interested jn Webtoons. Imo I’d hate for my first written/illustrated stories to gain a large following when I know I’d be experimenting and trying to nail my story’s plot and tone. I’d imagine my ideal crowd would be small enough to get criticism without it “breaching containment”- that said it wouldn’t go on WEBTOON but that’s just me. Secondly, it’s an interesting thing that this story is largely based on Greek mythology for its story and characters, which makes me wonder- how popular would this be with an original cast or characters/original cast of gods/pantheon made for the world the author wrote? Would it still have surged in popularity? Iirc mythology is already fluid in a sense. I remember reading somewhere that many stories about the Gods and deities changed over the years as culture and society changed. So giving an interpretation will always be in some part “wrong”. Reading the other comments here, basing this story off of existing mythology also just seems pretty harmful given the context of the original hymn(?) story(?) that was about Persephone in the first place. In the story’s own plot without the background of mythology, it just doesn’t seem to land anywhere with an exceptional two dimensional characters. Mother bad. That’s it? Why? It’s just perpetuating harmful messages when the story isn’t showing a more nuanced telling. (Edit: on that note, I don’t recall reading any romance that does have a parent involved other than “they’re dead/cut off” etc. The only one with a strong presence would be the mother from I Love Yoo, (and Yoo’s father
Rachel smyth should have never A-published her webtoon because of popularity especially with no editing and B not proofreading anything before posting where is the professionalism, how come the art looks so different, mangakas have assistants but the art never changes so why her art does she not care?
I know it’s been a minute but I think Clementine in her now archived video essay was able to get access to the Patreon and it’s very much indulging in the ddlg stuff 3:27:42
Will do! They're not similar to LO in terms of tone or genre though so I don't know if it'll be your cup of tea, but thanks for asking! We've also linked our webtoon profile in our UA-cam channel page. Thanks for watching and leaving a comment!
I ALWAYS FELT LIKE PERSOPHONE DESIRVES MOM LIKE DOMITOR OR WTF HER NAME IS DOMITOR ACTS LIKE NORMAl mom FOR A CHD WHO DATES 40 years old man but the story treats her as " bad" Persiphone needs mom like her to teach her lesson
Demeter's deal is never explained and the story basically casts her as a villain when her motivations are understandable to anyone who's not a teenager...especially to women who've experienced how creepy some men can be! But no, she stands in the way of the OTP so she's automatically evil.
The funny thing is that the original myth is ENTIRELY on Demeter's side. It's about her trauma, her pain, what a parent goes through when their child is kidnapped. Hades kidnaps Persephone after getting the go-ahead from Zeus, Persephone is tricked into staying but still gets to see her mom half the year. The story is Demeter vs her asshole brothers and the innocent Kore stuck as the victim.
@@Tareltonlives i heard short version of it happened that I actually HAD MYTHOLOGY LESSON😂 my webtoon i working on is also about legends myths rummors and some fantastic teoryes work tougether however thing i try to say i dont think ill add there greek myth because i am afraid i wont be able handle it well lol. as writter . i just cant understand what interest u should have pick something that already exsist and so fuck up
Even within the story, I still think Demeter is MORE than fair in being terrified and protective (if a bit overbearing). We literally see Aphrodite needing to seduce Zeus in order to save her son when he commits an “unlawful act of rage” or whatever. Zeus will only make exceptions if he is grated a sexual favor, and Demeter would either be submitting herself or her teenaged daughter to that. So yeah, I feel like her fear is not only understandable, but warranted. Of course though, exposing a teenaged girl to a 40-50yo man who has no qualms with banging teenagers is only gross and icky if he isn’t the lead 🙄
2:13:34 About Semele and the loom- I am decently familiar with Greek mythology but I don’t remember anything about Semele and a loom.I tried looking it up but I didn’t find anything. So yeah,I’m just as confused as you are.
I really, really hope not! I think the pregnancy scare episode was honestly (cynically?) the creator trying to "wipe the slate clean" and remove *all* consequences that Apollo's SA had for Persephone - because she rarely ever thinks about it and the trauma doesn't seem to last in her relationship with Hades, and the creator didn't want the dangling possibility of pregnancy either. Thanks for the comment!!
I just recently discovered your channel and I adore the commentary as it is insightful of how one should deliver storyline that is concise but also filled up to the brim with what's important as someone who is crafting their own stories. That aside, I adore Athena ever since I was introduced to the mythology and I was disappointed by how she made the characters who are known as asexual/aromantic in modern interpretation [i.e. Hestia & Athena] to have partners, when there's no need to change it. It is just a poor decision and it does not really serve anything plot-wise.
This is a bit like a poorly executed attempt to be like Ore Monogatari, in the sense that it is a romance/comedy where we get more about the male protagonist's thoughts and baggage than the female one. By doing this, it sells us the idea of a super devoted, respectful guy who does not come in the typical idea of a handsome, cinematic "Mr Right" but is still absolutely Mr Right. Key difference: OM is damn sure who his protagonist is and clings to his perspective mostly. He is the one with the interesting plotline. In LO, we are made to believe Persephone is the protagonist, but we get so much more depth with Hades. It has a crisis of perspective, which makes it feel disjointed and more like a collection of events than a story.
I can't belive is has not even been a month in story time. I couldn't deal with this story because in 20 chapters nothing happened and now I see that didn't change lol
You know when I was first reading this it never hit me that it had only been a few days since they’d met each other and they just were thrown into the situationship (if you can even call it that) from the get go
yknow, the idea of "maidenhood" and artemis especially has been associated with and theorized to refer also to lesbianism, and i can defintely see an author wanted to explore that but... to make the scholarship group specifically about chastity just completely destroys that idea. like thats not how you explore ancient concepts with modern perspectives. its just copypasted without any kind of care or nuance honestly i hate that the group was meant to explore purity culture at all, because thats a very specific modern USian thing. in greece the mandatory gendered sexual behavior for women was "marriage and babys", but ohhh we cant have our protag criticize THAT institution, because how else will our couple end in marriage and babys?? even dumber that persephone mentions how the concept of virginity is bullshit but also its a thing eros can detect.
There was this part that I think was pointed out in this video, I don’t quite remember because its been a while since I listened to it but, there was this part where Persephone is saying “oh I just want to take it slow” or something with hades and it reminded me of this story i just read called mayhem and miscreants or something. And the main couple are related in the sense of step son-step father and then they… uhhh yknow, fuck. Then the step father is like ur putting me in a situation and i just remembered what persephone said and it was like… isnt this kinda similar? But persephone acts like theyre fucking when she and hades are not???? And hes like in a relationship…
I love Enchanted too, because when it came to Giselle it was *self-aware.* First, Giselle had a lot of positive qualities before she changed, like being a happy, positive person with a can-do attitude, but it also emphasized her negative and unrealistic/unhealthy attributes as well, such as her inability to express any negative emotions or her helplessness/weird codependent relationship with the prince. Enchanted was a real *deconstruction* of Disney tropes, whereas LO, for as much as Rachel claims it's a deconstruction, does nothing more than reinforce harmful and sexist narratives and attitudes about women and their role in relationships. And Persephone acting like Giselle is never portrayed as a bad thing - in fact, in recent episodes Hades goes out of his way to shield and coddle her from responsibility because that's what he finds *charming* about her - her infantile qualities. The more you think about it, the grosser it gets! Thanks for the comment!
I'm very glad I found your channel! I love the critiques and discussions! But also WHERE DO YOU GET YOUR CLOTHES?! Seriously both of you guys look STUNNING!
Thanks for the compliment, pal! Both of us shop secondhand on places like eBay, Poshmark, and Mercari. I (Victoria) additionally buy accessories on Etsy when I'm looking for something specific that I can't find on eBay. Usually I score loads of high quality clothes for cheap on eBay!
1:09:51 okay so I think this is a really good point Like I was sheltered as a child and my experience is def VERY different from y’all’s I’m de facto no contact with my father It’s kinda amazing tbh lol But I have like 2 things: 1) it’s said multiple times in the comic iirc that P*rs*ph*ne grew up constantly around flower nymphs, some whom she planted/grew herself, all who she considered her sisters and how weird it is to be alone cuz she was always hanging out with nymphs, laying beside them, doing chores with them, etc And 2) in the OG D*m*ter is shown to be obviously traumatized and grieving to the point of divine wrath when her daughter **literally does go missing** Like there’s a way to have a more satisfying happy middle between the helicopter mom in the comic and the OG deep mother/child intimacy And also Like what about the nymphs? She literally says their her **sisters** Being away from a sibling you grew up with and spent so much time with us just **incredibly fucking hard**
29:12 I literally have zero memory if the pregnancy thing btw I’m pretty good at remembering what I read too This is a cute panel ngl but like Out of context like this it feels more akin to someone considering a new piercing or tattoo or even looking at a bug bite than what it’s supposed to he
3:21:16 ITS NOT FOR YOUNG GIRLS! It’s so obvious and I think the creator even mentioned it at least once? But it’s BY AND FOR ADULTS! Which is why I hate that the animation is going to be targeted at kids, it’s why I hate that WEBTOON has no problem putting it in front of kids and pushing it to them without giving any warning of “hey this isn’t meant for kids so make sure to talk to your parents about this” or “hey this isn’t meant for kids so maybe as a parent you should read it first and then decide if you’re kid is gonna be cool with this”
Rachel Smythe bears responsibility for this as well. If she really doesn’t want young girls-her primary audience and customer base-consuming this material, she has not lifted a finger to keep it out of their hands. She has been perfectly happy to let Webtoon push her work on children-primarily girls-and signed the deal for an animated show directed toward a young audience. A few token pronouncements about her intended adult audience don’t change those facts. She feeds extremely young, impressionable girls a highly sexist, morally rotten love story in which a sheltered young woman breaks free of the “abusive” mother who wants to protect her from powerful older men … in order to have sex with a powerful older man. She pretends this is an empowering, “feminist” story, and she’s made a lot of money doing it.
it's so painful when you two get on this extended re-imagining of an alternate story that's way more engaging, and at the end it's like "well... but back to this" lol
Well, the fact that it's disappointing means that it must be good, right...? haha, thanks for the comment!
@@pyrrhic_victoria of course, your re-imagining is way better! and so when we go back to the actual LO story it's like oh. right. lol
the whole discussion at 1:07:38 is why i have a problem with most modern retellings of the hades and persephone myth, because a lot of them (lore olympus VERY much included) write it as an emo bad boy king of the underworld love story and make demeter this overbearing, controlling mother that persephone needs to get away from, and it completely loses the point of the original story - the overwhelming power of a mother’s love for her child. demeter was willing to end the world for persephone! she was so intent on getting her back that she forced the king of the gods to bend to her will! and while i do think there’s room for other interpretations, the fact that controlling mother demeter has become kindof the norm is off-putting to me, especially since in the actual context of ancient greece, the original storytellers probably would have been mothers missing their daughters who were being sent off to marry some guy, and newly married girls missing their mothers.
love these videos, there was always something about lore olympus that annoyed me whenever i saw it even though ive never read it, so i’m glad to have a chapter-by-chapter breakdown like this so i can see why i got the weird vibes from it that i did!
The lyre thing is so dumb. There were so many times he could’ve been shown playing it, polishing it, tuning it, just really drive the point home that he cherishes this instrument. Then Persephone could steal it and think to herself, “Apollo treats this lyre better than he treats living people. Let’s see how he feels when something precious to him gets ruined.” As like a parallel to how he’s ruining her chance at independence from her mother
Yeah it was a total missed opportunity, too - I mean, his car is *right there* AND it represents his mythical golden chariot! You would have gotten the two for one destruction of a magical object and a great metaphor for his manhood! But noooo, that would have made Persephone look *too* angry, and we can't have that!
Thanks for leaving a comment!
The lyre kinda has some importance to Apollo but is actually more important to Hermes and his myths. So, as a music God, Apollo does care about it, but that's more an inference that most readers wouldn't have the background on. They completely missed any setup for it.
If you're going for the kinda modern jobs... why not make Apollo a rockstar essentially and his lyre is his instrument. You could still have that entitled attitude of his and work it into the plot better.
I never noticed that but I always knew of Ap*llo’s ties to the lyre as it was a gift from H*rmes after he steals a whole herd of cattle from him. However considering not everyone (I guess surprisingly to me but 🤷🏼♂️) isn’t well versed in Greek mythology you’re more than 1000% right. I get it’s fanfiction of IRL gods basically but if it’s going to be treated as an OG story than things that would be obvious to someone who knows the mythology should be made textually explicit in the story itself (like Ap*llo having a lyre and being god of music)
In relation to the nightmare she had where she’s pregnant, it’s even more disturbing that hades dreams of them having kids/her having his kids. she never had any thoughts or dreams abt this and he’s been dreaming this waaaay before they were dating, while she was 19 AND while he was dating minthe. And she’s completely unaware nor expressed any interest in it. It not only shows how little we truly know of Persephone internally but it gives her less agency of what she thinks on certain matters bc someone else already thought of it before her/without her consenting to it
Yeah you're so right. It's another example of the narrative setting up Hades' wants as being paramount and Persephone's wants as being ancillary to whatever *his* desires are. Persephone never even questions if she wants to be a mother, she just basically immediately thinks of how to satisfy Hades. It's so bizarre and sinister!!
Thanks for the comment!
I genuinely think this comic is just depicting Rachel's own problematic ways of thinking about these things. I like to give authors the benefit of the doubt and don't link their personal beliefs to their work, but Rachel doesn't seem to be very competent as we've seen. I think it's clear how much internalised misogyny she is filled with.
@@pyrrhic_victoria it also really shows how hypocritical Rachel is. She claims this story is supposed to be feminist, but when you get down to it, LO is even more misogynistic than the ancient myth of the abduction of Persephone!
You have all the female characters being bland or try to be superior to the MC in a narcissistic or petty way, or the female characters are butchered completely so they are worse compared to Persephone. Rachel tries to give Persephone more agency and personality, but she ends up using her as fan service (when she is 19 which is just barely over the American age of consent) by putting her in many naked positions for no narrative reason, taking away her sexual agency. She also lacks any personal agency because she doesn’t have any clear motivation or direction, and the only cares on how to make Hades happy without how it could affect her!
And to top it off, any trauma that she was given either by her mother or Apollo is usually brushed aside and used for her character instead of having her arc being centered on overcoming those traumas and becoming a better person! Her PTSD is only used as an excuse so her relationship with Hades can progress because both hades has mother issues and been in an abusive relationship, which Persephone can’t relate to unless it happened to her, so those events only happen to give Persephone and Hades something in common with.
No further questions.
That point about Hades and Persephone's traumas being treated differently is so true. To me, it comes across as trying to hide the real and ugly side of the trauma when it comes to P. The messed up thoughts, the rage, the shame, the misery, coping mechanisms... none of it is there. Like the trauma is an aesthetic that Rachel thought didn't fit Persephone because it's not pink, pretty and sexy.
Yep, hit the nail on the head. Any time the trauma would get in the way of the romance, it's totally discarded. It's really, really strange when you realize that Persephone's assault by Apollo was her *first time* and therefore you'd expect her to be so traumatized by the experience that she'd be put off men and sexual relationships? But never do we get any sense that she's scared of being with Hades, ever! In fact, she's more worried about being "good enough" for him rather than him hurting her! That aspect really infuriates me because Persephone's wants, needs, and persona is constantly given a backseat for what Hades prefers.
Thanks for leaving a comment!
Exactly. She throws in traumatic events but it's just ignored.
It is a crime that we didn't get a full page of Persephone taking a bat to the headlights of Apollo's car and slashing the tires 🤣
Justice, the old school way! Hey she said she liked using her hands - so she can use her FISTS against Apollo!!
Oooh she could’ve used her plant powers there! She could form a huge thorny wooden club with her plant power to smash his windshield, and make black locust thorns to ruin his tires!
Yeah such a missed opportunity!
that would have been SO satisfying please 😭
I dug my trees into the side of his pretty little souped-up four wheel drive!
Rachel: I can excuse racism and slavery, but I draw the line at incest
Don't forget pedo undertones in the OTP lol. But yeah her priorities are pretty messed up. Thanks for watching and leaving a comment!
Tbf, the actual Greek God's are all about incest 🥲
us: you can excuse racism?!?
I've seen people say that the way Persephone reacts to being RPed is the other response, which is becoming hypersexual. No. It isn't.
I've been through this myself, some years ago. My reaction was the "opposite of the normal", instead of being scared of being touched and such, I craved it from my abser. People might think and said to me "oh then it wasn't RP". It was. I was drunk by a friend and that's all I am gonna say about it.
The hypersexual response is valid. Is when your mind and body block part of the memories, and manipulates you to think that you had control. To extremely simplify: if I am the one going for it, I can not get RP again. That's a real stretch to explain like that, but This is a UA-cam comment.
In the hypersexual response, we do not feel good about ourselves. We do not like to search for our abser attention, we do not like the SX we might get involved, it gives us body horror, anxiety, some even to the point of body dysmorphia. Just like the common response, we tend to blame ourselves for the fact.
That's not what Persephone have. She does not feel guilt, she does not want to get control of the situation, she's not flirting with her abser nor having mixed feeling about him. She acts like what he did was a harmless thing that hurt her feelings.
Don't ever say her response to the trauma was a depiction of hypersexual response. It was not.
Its like you described, that form of response/trauma is extremely complex and involves a lot of conflicting feelings. We would need to see that at least once in detail for me to accept that that's what is being depicted in LO. The problem is, we NEVER get to see those feelings or get into Persephone's head regarding the SA, EVER. So I don't even know what kind of traumatic response she had, because she seemingly never thinks about it and it seemingly doesn't impact her thoughts or actions or relationship with Hades at all!!
When I see people adding stuff like hypersexuality or body positivity to LO, I feel like they're projecting what they want onto LO vs what's actually there. Since the storytelling is consistently vague it's almost designed to be that way.
Thank you for the comment, I 100% agree with you and I'm sorry that happened to you.
@@pyrrhic_victoria I wasn't even expecting a response :0 thanks for reading it! I've been hearing your podcast while working for some days now, and I really like it! Keep the good work!
(Edited because I misspelled a word haha)
And another thing I'd add is that Persephone isn't _trying_ to be sexy most of the time (AKA what people think a hypersexual trauma response is).
The panels are framed in a way that sexualizes her, while she just exists within those panels; shes barely even experienced when it comes to sex ("'Sleeping your way to the top'? That sounds lazy!"), which adds and extra layer of ick. From what I can tell this sexualization begins long before her assault (take the club scene w/ Hades ogling her, I believe that takes place before the assault).
I love the idea of minthe thetis and thanatos figuring out what happened to persephone and then befriending her and helping her
Thanks!! I really like it too, and it makes me wish we'd gotten a different kind of LO since the set up had so much promise!
@@pyrrhic_victoriaMinthe, Thetis and Thanatos become the “excuse me she asked for pickles” squad for Persephone lol
Wow, I love how youre not just “hating on it” but actively giving better solutions for alot of the pacing/character issues. Particularly your take on the relationship with Demeter/Persephone.
I would love to read some of your work, its clear you two have a real passion for characterization and good storytelling
Thanks so much for watching and thank you for such a nice comment!
For us, it's kind of easy to just blindly hate or nitpick something but it's much harder to acknowledge the inherent merits to a premise and try to see how to rework the material. Lore Olympus didn't get popular because it was always bad! The elements of good storytelling and good art were present in the series from the beginning, and it's a shame that it ended up squandered so badly.
That's so sweet of you to say about our work! We will add our webtoon profile to our page for anyone who's interested to check out :)
yeah, thats a big part of why i enjoy this series of videos. it’s not just “lol lore olympus bad,” theyre giving constructive criticism and talking about how it could be made into a more effective story
I feel like Apollo should have been the one to take the paparazzi's eye out as an act of possessiveness over persephone. If you *really* wanted Hades to learn the "don't white knight" lesson you could have had it so he *was* planning to sue the shit out of the nymph (still overreacting but not literally torture). But then persephone comes in upset and complains about how her social life at school was destroyed because someone decided "avenge" her and now everyone is scared of her and may even think she did it. Hades could see how upset persephone is and see that she doesn't want to be defended in such a way he could also be disgusted at the actions taken, but also come to the realization that suing a college student into oblivion isn't much different and calls off his plans. Then he can *actually* help persephone through a tough time by asking her what she wants to do, and when persephone says she wants to help the nymph, he can use the resources at his disposal to either
1. Get the og eye back somehow
2. Get a new eye
3. Get a fake eye
It's like family guy. They want you to take quagmires sisters abuse seriously but not the looney tunes violence.
i, like persephone, was r*ped when I was still a virgin and a teenager and related to that bit of her storyline. my abuser is almost EXACTLY like apollo in the webcomics and it was triggering but also calming to see someone who could relate to me and my situation. that being said, I REALLY hate how long it's taking for them to actually develop a plotline when it comes to her genuine feelings on her assault, not just the surface level stuff. there is SO. MUCH. that goes into something so traumatic, especially for those of us who had no control of our first sexual experience, instead having it stolen away from us by people with power over us. I genuinely hope we get a view on her raw emotions about it. I also hate that hades is a side plot for her SA. after my r*pe, guys threw it in my face left and right in order to get me to sleep with them, the whole "oh I'd never treat you like that and I can help you forget" nonsense, and like persephone, I was young and naive so it worked. in my opinion hades is being used as that sort of plot line: "I'd never treat you like that" blah blah blah in order to get her in bed. idk I just feel like all of this couldve been handled so much better. (that's literally the only part of persephones character I can relate to tho. I find it hard to like her at times. I'm more of a hecate type, but I may just be biased because we have similar personalities and shes my favorite goddess.) i have heard that webtoon is extremely controlling over stories and their plot once they get to a certain point and the creator signs a contract to partner with them, so I'm hoping that's one of the reasons why the plotline has been very....bland...as of late.
Honestly, something that irks me in particular about RS is that she once tweeted a vent about criticism against her comic. She said that it felt like people were unfairly criticizing a half finished story, and made up a metaphor where she was halfway done building a bridge, and the critics say "this bridge is bad, I could walk right off it!" So yeah, basically lamenting about people judging the story for the dropped and unfinished plot threads, I presume, just going off that tweet, and she was trying to defend herself by basically saying "I'm not done yet, guys!! Of course these plot points are going somewhere!! It's not a finished product yet!!" BUT IT'S TAKING TOO LONG, RACHEL. You can't set up something in season one then placate impatient critics by saying itll be resolved in season 3.
Yeah her social media is... something else. We're staying away from personal critiques or speculation for the most part except where it's egregious, like the inclusion of the DDLG angle, but I'm well aware of the sheer volume and tone of her sm activity, particularly her tweets. Her complaint about the story not even being finished isn't valid, because looking at single seasons exposes just how wonky and poorly constructed the majority of the set up and pay off is. And recently she even completely wrote off Eros and Psyche, the secondary romance and her once claimed deuteragonists, *off screen.* You don't have to wait until something's finished to realize it's completely lost the plot. Just look at LOST. By season 3 it was pretty clear the writers were just making it up as they went along...badly (because you could theoretically fly by the seat of your pants and write something good, but it's significantly harder than having a plan). Thanks for watching and thanks for the comment!
@@pyrrhic_victoria Couldn't agree more.
1:07:35 This is why I hate “MoDeRn FeMiNiSt ReTeLlInGs” of the Hymn of Demeter. The story is about a woman who’s daughter is victimized by powerful men and she’s able to eek out a small triumph over them by going full Liam Neeson Taken. It represents the tragedy of the way so many women at the time (and still to this day) forcefully lose their precious daughters to male exploitation and feel so utterly powerless.
Then modern writers twist that story to villainize the mother, frame the story so the victim really wanted it, the kidnapper/abuser is actually a heroic, hot, and misunderstood sad boy. And basically turn it into another generic “fifty shades” style power imbalance romance.
It would be like if a thousand years from now if people made trashy retellings of game of thrones and made Sansa Stark like so totally into bad boy misunderstood Ramsey Bolton, but Jon Snow was being an annoying overprotective bad brother for getting in the way of the OTP.
(Tortured metaphor I know. And even that wouldn’t have the added misogamy of making the main woman into a bad guy for just wanting her freaking child back.)
I've been reading Lore Olympus for four years and the only 'good' thing about it is the criticism that comes from within the community. it's hard to come across a fan page on Instagram that hosts unfiltered opinions, because some fans either get very defensive when any ounce of criticism is thrown at the comic or are actually young, teenage girls who read the comic. I, personally, hate how trauma is never an excuse for anything is the status quo for antagonists but when it's the protagonists, the author feels like they have to jump through hoops to make the character still a good person and never actually suffer from the consequences of their actions because nothing bad can happen to the main character. Persephone has no agency that doesn't revolve around Hades. Any character who doesn't ship and/or doesn't like hades and Persephone is a bad guy and only gets a redemption arc if they have a convenient/contrived reason to like them again, with the exception of Minthe. Minthe's character currently is the only one whose life isn't revolving around what H+P is doing, she's actually doing her own thing that doesn't even focus on the main storyline and that was a way of concluding her arc. Meanwhile, after her big (and badly written) fight with Kronos and fusion dancing with hades to rebuild the underground, after Kronos took control of the underworld as a direct result of Persephone being banished after the trial, Hades tells Persephone to take it easy, forcing her to the sidelines, and she's not even given an interesting b plot o follow in the fast pass episodes (spoilers). Persephone wants to go into a lingerie store and she runs into Daphe and Eros who asks her if she's boned hades yet. They're both so down bad for each other at this point it's unbearable. Demeter is gonna be the big bad of the final season. She going to be the 'irrational woman' who can't accept that Persephone's grown up when Demeter has missed important milestones in Persephone's life that she should have been a part of. I hope Rachel doesn't botch how Persephone has to split her time between the mortal realm because there's actually a really nice set-up for how that can fit into the story. In an earlier chapter, Hades mentions how he can't spend too much time out of the Underworld or else he'll become weak. Persephone grew a tree in Tartarus after Minthe led her on a wild goose chase. The tree Persphone grew caused Kronus to rise up and try and take over. For the safety of all three realms, Persephone can't realistically permanently reside in the underworld because she can literally make tyrants raise from the dead. Sorry for word vomiting in your comment section, I really like lore Olympus and I just finished all three of your videos and appreciate your analysis.
I still don’t understand the pomegranate like I thought she had stay in the underworld forever
@@randymilo212 the pomegranate is a very contrived plot device and the only conclusion i can draw as to why rachel references pomegranates is that they were present in the original myth and it's lazy world building.
It's not a really well defined plot device in the narrative. It's supposed to be a play on apple products. It's revealed later that hephaestus, god of the forge, cut off his immediate family to live in the underworld to help hades develop the pomegranate technology making all technology produced in the underworld.
The pomegranate that both Hades and Persephone have both consumed ties them to the underworld yes, but it doesn't forbid hades and persephone from leaving they just get weaker and drained the longer they're away from the underworld. The pomegranate is located in Ereberus the god of literal darkness. He doesn't have a physical form, which is really boring. I like the character designs and caricatures of nature rachel gave her characters who were based on locations in mythology like the river styx. It's also revealed that by eating the pomegranate you're cursed but the details of the curse are vague but you have control over the underworld. Persephone eats the pomegrante and becomes queen of underworld, without having to marry hades, but it is eventually expected if them as predetermined by destiny or some other future retcon bullshit. She molly whops Kronus, gets some new powers introduced that obviously aren't being kept track of.
There seems to be a misconception that all the olympians have a titan form when only zeus, poseidon, and hades are the only ones in the text are direct descendants of titans whereas hera, hestia and demeter were created by metis. They were written this way to specifically avoid the incest in the original mythology.
There's a lot of gross and icky stuff in the subtext of the story that if lore olypmus were written in a different media, if it were a book with no pictures or a screen play there's no way anyone would say it's actually good. Because all you see is 40 year old man crushing like a school boy over his barely legal employee with no agency or awareness.
The art inconsistancy is also ridculous. It's recently been revealed that hades is 7 feet tall while persephone is supposed to be 5 feet. She's supposed to come up to at least below his chest but she's always at crotch height. Persephone is very child coded and the story does nothing to hide it. from the way she's suddenly drawn without her big boobs in panels where she's next to hades, the way she acts like a child around hades, and how she's coddled by hades constantly. Hades claims to think persephone terrifying and not underestimate her power but that's exactly what he's doing in current time in the plot. He's hiding behind the fact that he doesn't want her to see the state of the realm but what better time to start being a queen then when everything is in disarray?
Thise are just my thoughts. Like i said i just really like lore Olympus it's one of my hyperfixations and i like chiming in with my 2 cents. Hope this was entertaining have a good one ✌️
Yep, hard agree with everything you called out. A big portion of the fanbase IS toxic, not just because they're teenage girls but also because Rachel has inculcated this whole "woe is me, working on LO is so hard" persona. She basically sympathy tweets for hours a day at this point, and that can't be overlooked. At the end of the day, though, she's a millionaire off of this comic and it's still being posted - if she's made the money and she doesn't feel like working on it, why not quit? Or why not hire a ghost writer?
The best characters in LO are the ones who aren't constantly kissing HxP's asses, like Minthe, Thanatos, Demeter, and Thetis. Yeah, Thetis is scummy but she's entertaining and has a personality. Everyone else just comes off as a weird satellite drone obsessed with Hades and Persephone for no discernable reason. It's very off-putting.
At this point, I wouldn't consider the main character to be Persephone because we hardly see how she thinks and she comes off as empty and hollow the majority of the time, existing purely to be lusted after by all the male gods. Hades gets way more development and screen time monologuing; I really consider Hades to be the main character. His 2,000 year old trauma is even treated more seriously than Persephone's assault that happened days ago.
You also make a lot of good points about the stupid botched Kronos plot - and I can't wait to cover that travesty and see Pyrrhic's reaction to how it all plays out lol
Thanks for the comment and thanks for watching!
The pomegranate thing is the biggest clue for how lazy and thoughtless the world building is for this series and also how everything hinges on contrivances. There is no real inspiration or heed taken from the OG myths (which is fine, but then tell Rachel to stop acting like a "folklorist") except weird throwaway references or ham-fisted anvils like the pomegranate.
I have been covering the art episode by episode from episode 207 in ridiculously petty reddit posts if you're interested btw - here's the first art post I made on LO: www.reddit.com/r/UnpopularLoreOlympus/comments/wv3r6q/breaking_down_the_art_decline/
The Unpopular Lore Olympus subreddit in general is a great place to go for people who are more critical of the series.
I see Minthe's arc differently. She essentially traded lifestyles with Persephone, a character who's next-in-line to be Hades' sugar baby.
Persephone was an important character to me, I was just coming to terms with the fact that I had been assaulted. I felt confused because it wasn't a big thing, I was just inappropriately touched by someone really close to me. I was so confused because I didn't stop it, I didn't even blame them for it, I made excuses for them, I felt ashamed. I related so much to Persephone, I would go over the scene where she stood up to Apollo because I wanted to do that. She helped me come to terms with my feelings, but now I can't even relate to her at all. She's lost all the charm she had to me.
I'm sorry that happened to you. I really hate how poorly handled this aspect/plot of LO is. It's one of the most aggravating parts of the series for me, along with the omnipresent oversexualization and misogyny in a work aimed at kids.
@@pyrrhic_victoria Yeah, I realised just how poorly it was handled when I was out of that zone, and LO just didn't treat the subject with the respect it needs. Persephone became too unrelatable after chapter 100. During the trial arc she completely lost what made her special to me. The over-sexualisation of her also became a big problem for me, especially since she was a character. Persephone's character just became weird to me over time.
"I would sue the person who built this palace. This is discrimination, man!"
I AM DEAD. UNALIVE. SPIRIT YANKED FROM MY BODY 😭
Glad you're enjoying our commentary!!! Hope we can keep up the jokes...some of the stuff that happens later you can only joke about because it's otherwise just too infuriating hahaha
The whole thing with Persephone and Apollo is really not needed in my eyes tbh. I liked the idea of the canvas version where Apollo was supposed to be her first boyfriend or something like that, but you could clearly see him being a jerk.
Why would they make him so obsessed with her out of the fcking blue? Like it might makes sense he was just interested in her because she’s pretty and only wants one night or whatever and yeah, then forces himself upon her because he won’t view her as anything other than a way to get sex . Like why did they have to make him want to marry her? Because of her fetility goddess status?
And then he is made to act as if he’s a delusional that is waaay too exagerated, like they really are trying hard to make him as ahole.
The whole SA thing wasn’t necessary at all, but ofc they had to put some kind of shocking situation for Persephone so you feel more empathy towards her and you see later Daddy Hades be her knight ready to rwscue her ofc.
And ano tu er thing I don’t understand is why nobody is doing anything with Apollo. It’s a stupid plot, handled in a way that is fcking ridiculous.
Yeah it seems like the creator didn't know what she wanted to do with him. After the SA he's not that interested in Persephone except he kinda acts like it didn't happen, and then all of a sudden it escalates to "be my co ruler" out of nowhere. There's literally no in-text explanation for his obsession except maybe the fertility goddess thing making men obsessed with her? But holy victim blaming, batman, if that's the case!
I think the SA thing was done on a whim and then the creator was like "oh crap, I don't actually want to write Persephone as traumatized!" Because then her eagerness to get with Hades makes no sense - Apollo is her first experience with sex now, so why is she so hot for Hades?? It's also hilarious because Hades and Apollo are even written similarly, so why wouldn't that intimidate/scare her?? There was just no thought at all, and it's like you said - thrown in for cheap drama and contrived sympathy with an otherwise empty, hollow character.
Thanks for watching and leaving a comment! :)
@@pyrrhic_victorianp, thank you for your reply and so glad to find someone agreeing with the story. I'd like to leave another comment with something that I also see a lot in this webtoon and is the sexualization of Persephone.
So I rewatched a bit of the last part where you both are talking about how Persephone is so sexualised and is supposed to be what the target audience (teens to young women should be the audience, sometimes not even including teens anymore).
I want to say first that I think that Persephone is a way for Rachel to project on the character. I follow this story since a long time back when author was in tumblr posting the webtoon before it got to webtoon itself. So she posted a lot of extra doodles of Persephone and Hades, being cute-sy or having sexual tension in some way.
(Ex. Persephone being drawn in a very scandalous dress, her back is towards the audience and the biggest thing in this drawing was her ass. Hades was basically so horny that Zeus came in a later panel to tell Persephone off because how dare she go with this kind of dress)
In a lot of Q&A she did she is always saying she likes Hades the most, then Persephone, commented stuff like Hades being a dream boyfriend and she talked a bit about how their dynamic was atractive to her.
So I think that this kind of May/ December type of romance (Young, naive girl and way older, dark and handsome and cinical man smitten by girl) is very appealing to many women, mostly middle age and teens. Middle age women who are constantly told that the younger the better they look. And we ourselves believe so too so many times... it is what you see on media and tv so it's ingrained on many women I believe, when it comes to watching romance movies it is incredibly ridiculous plot and a very toxic relationship that only works in fiction. I would say I don't have a problem with this since it is fiction and people should know how to differentiate fiction over reality. Teens however see this and might have problems... but idk, I think teens know nothing of this kind of thing and have to learn either way through their experiences.
I feel like people that enjoy this comic are projecting their fantasies. The fantasy of being forever young, very very hot and sexy but oblivious of their appeal (such a fcking cliche, and Rachel herself Persephone was like this) teens fantasize of having this kind of attention coming from a handsome, rich gentleman who will treat you like a queen. The reality of this is much different.
So Persephone is drawn to almost always having her big tatas out, mid thigh also out of her dress/shorts. It's funny how Thetis gets a comment like this from Minthe and the readers are like "yeah, she is a total sl*t", while Persephone I guess it's ok because she is sexy but classy and has the right to wear whatever she wants no matter what, no matter her personality or characterisation which also says something about the awful character design that she has. Because Rachel also said answering a Q&A that she picks up Persephone's outfits of things she sees on pinterest and that she likes. Clothes should mean something when it comes to character design, and Persephone is a sheltered young girl coming from the mortal realm where she is only wearing the traditional Greek garment that they wear in that time no? Suddenly she comes to Olympus where the clothes are waaaaaaaaay different, she has to borrow clothes from Artemis and how was that iconic first look on Persephone? SHe looked uncomfortable the whole time, trying to cover her whole ass and a bit of her chest because that dress was so short it was almost impossible to contain either of these 2 body traits of hers. And so tell me how she has fashion sense the whole comic then when she would be used to wear another type of clothing. And the excuse here is that people bought her clothes. Eros, Daphne and even Hades later. It's weird, you're telling me Persephone is saying things like "I like Hades because he's not treating me like a child" (and this is another thing that I think it's total BS btw) she wants to be independent, Rachel wants her to be this way but at the same time not really. It's a fantasy of the author, it makes 0 sense.
It's ok if you want to have some kind of self-insert in a story. It's ok to project. It's just very hurtful story-wise in my eyes because things like this happen. It's very contradictory to character design, to the ethics used on different characters in comparison and they're being drawn sexual, hot, "perfect", they're always good and have no flaws and if they actually have flaws it is the influence of something or someone else (ex. Act of Wrath and Persephone, not sure if you guys read the comic but is basically Persephone having no fault in anything, she should never be confronted of anything let alone punished, she is a good cinnamon roll who does nothing bad, can't hurt a fly etc etc.)
In summary: the story is a fanfic of Hades and Persephone, Persephone being the author's projecting her fantasies wanting to be forever young, sexy and hot, desired by every guy.
Edit: Sorry for the very long comment lol I actually was a fan of author's drawings and followed her webtoon just because of her art but the story has always seemed very corny to me, yet it had some potential, now not only is the story so bad for me, the art is...=_=. People for real pay 7 coins for fastpass for this comic and it's embarrassing. Or the physical books. Which I bought 1. And I hated the layout of the panels and everything.
@@tiquismistica9417 dude I agree with everything you said and you laid it out so well. I've read through the whole thing but Pyrrhic hasn't and I agree completely with it being a wish fulfillment self insert fanfic basically. That's what makes the story so lacking in stakes unfortunately, as interesting stories usually arise from conflict but Rachel can't bear to include anything bad happening to the main characters or for their flaws to be recognized and impact the story.
We plan to do these videos for the whole series and I'm sure a lot of your points will be echoed as we go on. By episode 100 though this is very apparently the biggest issue with Lore Olympus.
Thanks for watching and leaving a comment!
I wish I could remember the quote on "should you include rape in a story" - the TLDR is that it really isn't 90% of the time. It's especially bad in romance- it's usually used to force a pairing together through trauma, or worse, used by the main paring and framed as romantic.
Why not just have a bad relationship? He can even still be a controlling creeper without the actual assault
One of the reasons it's a bad idea is that the aftermath is glossed over. All you need is your OTP and all those mental scars go away, which is really trivializing.
I think TGOEM plot point was very poorly handled. If I could tweak the story, I'd have Demeter send Persephone away to college to (secretly) have her find a suitable husband, capable of not exploiting Persephone's fertility goddess abilities. [OR have the conflict involve Demeter exploiting her daughter's abilities, which could reference the original myth, in which Hades kidnaps Persephone]. If everyone acknowledged fertility goddesses, the story would be a little less ridiculous. Zeus covering up their significance is silly, but then again, so is Zeus' character, overall. If Zeus is so power hungry, why isn't his character more intimidating?
I’m writing my own rewrite of Lore Olympus, and I love what you said about visual storytelling and how Persephone’s nature motif undermines her trauma as a character.
I think Persephone really needed a “What Else Could I Do?” moment like Isabella in Encanto had. Show that nature can be beautiful, but it can be rough, sharp, imperfect. Brutal even. Make her rage ugly.
"it's been a week in the comic but almost two years in real life" and there's why I stopped reading less than 30 chapters in 😭 as soon as I caught up things just took way too long to happen
Yeah it's really strange and ridiculous when you start thinking about it! I think there's even multiple points where Rachel herself confuses the timeline and implies that months have passed rather than less than three weeks!
Thanks for commenting!
@@pyrrhic_victoria I normally like things that take their time like a slice-of-life but any interesting things she could make happen just _don't_ happen. It's just a slow crawl from one beat to another and occassionally a beat is completely skipped lmao I started forgetting everything that was supposed to be going on.
I'm glad UA-cam put you guys on my home page, I love these videos. My winter vacation is coming up at the end of the month and I'm excited to sit down and read what you guys have put out so far! Proof that creators care this much about what they do is the best motivation for me to see their work
@@pyrrhic_victoria REAL, I was reading a newish chapter where Persephone is older, 29 I think, and Zeus said she only knew Hades for a week meanwhile, I thought months had passed, I was shooketh
One of my favorite things about your videos is that you don't just criticize the flaws of the comic, you also offer solutions as to how they could have been better because you can acknowledge it isn't enough to just say, "Thing bad."
Thanks for the comment and the compliment :) For us it's really entertaining to try to think of how to execute what the author intended to do, or even how to take a promising premise and alter it so it lives up to its full potential. This approach also is the best way to come up with ideas for your own stories, as you can easily turn a rewrite into a fully fledged original ideas. That's how I think of most of my stories, anyway!
Hearing you talk about how unimportant the lyre is made me realise how out of character Apollo is. Its been a while since I've read up on Greek Mythology or Lore Olympus, so I could be missing something, but from my memory Apollo is the god of;
- the sun
- music (hence the lyre but you already explained its insignificance)
- poetry/plays
- archery
- medicine/healing
- oracles
and yet barely any of these are integrated into his character. Sure later in the series there's a scene with him doing archery (he shoots Daphne I think?) and maybe you could compare his car to his chariot (since he would pull the sun into the sky) but that's about it. He's not even Apollo he's just some jerk oc at this point, which I feel just shows how poor the writing is.
This series has massive pacing issues, especially in terms of serious issues like assault and even relationships
And it is weird that Persephone is so hyper-sexualized in any and all situations.
There's a lot of references to mythology (the lyre, the pomegranate) etc, but the series pretty much only works if you don't have knowledge or attachment. Who is this series for? Rick Riordan tends to make all these references plot relevant- he repurposes events, characters, etc into the plotline, but they're not cameos.
The hatred of Demeter and idolization of Hades as the "better choice" really infuriates me. It's a complete 180 on the original story but has misogynistic undertones.
The comic forces two characters together but instead of using the slow burn to actually show why they can get together, there's just meandering plots that don't do anything padding it out.
Remember, it's okay when Hades does it. The mutilation is totally justified because it's Hades.
This is absolutely ddlg
LOL Apollo the Black Knight
The worst thing about the plot is the pacing and the sheer number of plots that have little to no setup, so they just enter and exit at will and you're supposed to keep up with it all. It's insane reading it all in one go and actually thinking about it because there's so many times where the plot will actually *contradict* itself based on what came before. It makes you wonder if Rachel is even reading her own comic between episodes.
Persephone isn't a character, she's a vehicle for self insert wish fulfillment, and I guess the unspoken "wish" is to be a playboy bunny that all the boys want (a la Michael Bay's women). It's definitely...something.
Rachel has drawn porn of Hades and Persephone and DDLG is the main dynamic, yikes!!
The part where you were talking about how it influences young girls thinking that their first internship would go like this gave me a flashback.
I grew up reading lots of shojo manga and thought “wow! I want a protective and possessive boyfriend and I want them to grab and kiss me” ect.
BOY WAS I WRONG! Not only that, since I was the only girl amongst a group of boys who read manga with me they definitely tried to imitate some problematic behavior.
Definitely did not give me the butterflies I was expecting.
There's so many interesting concepts, but they never delve into them in any meaningful or interesting ways, and I cannot stand the babyfication of Persephone. She's a goddess, not a 5 year old, and it's gross how her childishness is hypersexualized. You can have a chaste woman who isn't naïve and unaware of herself, but that might be too much of a character for the LO writers to handle.
Yeah there's nothing wrong with a naïve or inexperienced main female character; the worst part about it in LO's case is that it comes off as explicitly sexualized/fetishized BECAUSE of her lack of experience, which is troubling to say the least.
Thanks for the comment!
Thank you both for making this series!! It's honestly therapeutic to hear your analysis about the mechanics behind why so many things in this series feel so .. icky? Yeah, I'm going to go with icky.
I binged this story this year, and remembered being vaguely interested in the re-contextualization of the r*** of Persephone as a social media mis-understanding. Plus it was so bright and colorful and easy to fly through. But it just kept ickier and ickier as it went on. And the more time that passed after putting it down, the worse everything came off on reflection. Everything from just changing the assailant in the story from Hades to Apollo, to the uncomfortable way we always have to look at Persephone, to the ABSURD framing about what to take seriously and what not - this was blindingly obnoxious even while reading it - to absolutely every single thing Minthe (I am so, so confused why fans don't like her - she is the most sympathetic character by a landslide), to the way Persephone and Hades interact, to Smythe's blatant lack of self-awareness regarding the social issues of her own world. The way class differences were constantly swept under the rug like all poor people are evil and unjustified was why I had to quit the story. I wasn't rooting for the protagonists at all. I didn't care about their lives. I didn't feel bad for them. I didn't want them to succeed. I didn't want them to end up together.
And the weirdest part is that I *think* I'm the type of person that's theoretically supposed to feel represented here. The softer, less confrontational sort of that internalizes trauma instead of externalizing it. And there were little beats of the story I recognized in myself - like being in a terrible situation and that just coming out as sass (the crepes scene). But I'm not empowered by this story, I'm disturbed by it. And I don't relate to Persephone, I think she's an idiot. Who also acts like a 5 year old or that one friend with the relationship drama so dumb you will do anything in the world not to hear about it.
Over time, I find this story bothers me more and more and it's disturbing to see the sheer quantity of accolades and money being poured into distribution right now. There are so many special editions of this free web-novel being printed it has become a collectors item already. But there are so many horrifying elements being glorified that I thought modern media had taken a more critical lens to in recent years. Yet the reception is so rose colored, it's frustrating. Really appreciate your insights and explanations about all the intentional and background choices made behind the construction of these problems.
Honestly I'm obsessed with the LO deep dive you're making and I really hope you get more recognition for that, because it seems like a lot of people have a pathological fear of saying how bad LO really is. And don't get me wrong, I've already read it 3 times and for a loooong time considered my guilty pleasure, 'cause there's no shame in liking bad stuff, you can do it, but some sh*t is really hard to ignore and is the reason I don't lik the series anymore.
The most important thing about LO that I absolutely hate is how Rachel handles violence. Please, if you want gods to have acts of wrath, so commit to it, don't make a fluffy fucking pastel neon comic and put (when is convenient for you) a freaking TW in one episode or another, when you think the situation must be taken serious!!! As a survivor of multiple instances of SA and p3do I was totally offended by the way she tackled this subject, and not because Persephone's reaction is different from mine, bc every survivor has their own process, but becaus this topic and its consequences were handled SO POORLY OMG I'M ENRAGED JUST THINKING ABOUT IT.
Ares, Thanatos and Hermes had so potential to be better than all of the chars in the story but the writing sucks and the overall plot (what plot?) is terrible. My friend bought the first volume of the fisical comic, read it, and told me she didn't understand a single thing, and she's a super fan of retelling of mythology, and a fan of PJO from Rick Riordan.
As a (amateur) writer, not of comics, but books (props to you both tho, comics are really hard, and my digital drawing sucks), I hope that when I get published, I don't let the fame - if this ever comes - get in the way of me telling a good and respectful story to my readers.
Well thats it for now, I'm sending this channel to all of my friends here in Brazil, see you in the next one guys
Persephone is one of those girls who would just go "oh you!" when her boyfriend is being rude/straight up cruel to other people for no reason
I don't know if its just me but when hades calls Poseidon to bring Apollo down to the motel realm, combined with our past knowledge of Apollo's actions and how Poseidon refers to it, it kinda feels like Hades is pushing Apollo to go and harass mortal women which is a really dark and abusive path for him to take.
Great series, I’ve been enjoying it so far.
I wanted to just comment on Zeus’ mortal realm girlfriend, if anyone is actually curious of the origin myth. Although I have read a lot about this, there may be some inaccuracies due to poor memory.
That’s Semele, princess of Thebes, aunt of Pentheus (of murdered by his own mother in the Bacchae fame) and Dionysus’ mother, at least in quite a few myths (depending on how you look at Zagreus’ relation to Dionysus, Persephone is one of his mothers as well). The reason Zeus comments on her behaviour like that is because she is often presented as a bit ‘mad’, either via her family not believing her story about Zeus or, if I recall correctly, having some Maenad (Dionysus followers who do some rather intense ritual worship) tendencies in written poems like the Dionysiaca, where she sacrifices a bull with her bare hands.
I dunno if Lore Olympus will address this, but Hera ‘tricks’ her into begging Zeus to reveal his true form (which he does because Greek God moment, he made a promise) and she just. Dies. And Zeus has to put the baby into his thigh bc that’s where the Greeks thought manliness juice was stored.
My guess (and hope) is that the entire inclusion was to confirm Dionysus was not born yet. I am praying it will not go the Zagreus route, because his origin is pretty fantastical and messed up.
Thanks for the insight! Man Greek myths are wild!!! The thigh manly juice hahaha 🤣
I doubt LO will address it because she seems to have realized that she's bitten off more than she can chew myth-wise, and it's just another dropped plot/character like the furies, echo, psyche, etc.
Rachel would NEVER portray her beloved Hera as cruel, so if Semele died it will be fully on Zeus 🙄
”thigh" has been a euphemism for genitals since biblical times so i dont think the Greeks were ignorant about the role of the testes, just being more discreet.
had to pause this to have a proper laugh at “his IQ drops to the temperature of the underworld” 💀 currently binging these videos, you guys are putting all my feelings into words 👏🏼
Your outfits! I can't get over how put together & individual they are. I'm very happy you two decided to set up a camera and not just make this an audio only podcast
And this is my favorite title thus far
Thank you! We're both highly interested in fashion and aesthetics, although with widely diverging tastes!
As the chapters went by , the less and less I liked persephone as a person and as a character. Either make her manipulative with the appearance of innocence. Or make her innocent with stronger morals , or something consistent. She is often very mean and underhanded while the story presents her as likable. She really isn't. The most sympathy o had for her was the controversial s.a theme and even that was used to push something unsavory. Again, hate how demwter is presented , and I hate the purity culture aspect in all this. Its weird how she intentionally sexy but doesn't know she's sexy but is super flirty but pullback but tottaly wants to hang with a taken man. And persephone has hurt a lot of people that didn't deserve it or were overpunished. Ans she's an enabler of hades as long as it benefits her. Persephone:"oh no. Hades uses slave labor. What a bummer. I'm anti capitalism but ill overlook this because I like him. Oh, he ripped someone eye out for me? Why are you being mean to me about it? I didn't make him."
Only consistent thing about her is her mean streak.
Also , thank you for pointing out the Athena and hestia thing for the maidenhood thing. That was frustrating as hell. Like , is it romantic? Or is it sexual too? Does it still go against the maidenhood thing if its strictly romantic but nosexual? Or them being gay is the loophole? The LGBT rep in this ain't all that great. Part od that could be advertising ans moderation but still.
Yeah Persephone definitely fits the "born sexy yesterday" trope but ONLY around Hades. She reminds me of one of those girls who has two different personalities: one for the guys she's attracted to, and one for everyone else. If the comic was self aware, this might have been a really interesting, manipulative, ruthless heroine. But it's not - the narrative keeps trying to insist that Persephone is as Pure as a Disney Princess (there's that darn purity culture again!) and is the nicest bestest girl ever! But when have we ever seen her be perfectly nice to someone when there's nothing in it for her? In fact, we're shown the opposite a lot! It's wild that all of this was written totally unintentionally!
The Athena and Hestia thing - someone on reddit was saying that was a reference to the fact that Greeks apparently didn't think homosexual relations between women "counted" as sexual activity, but the Greeks also didn't think women were people - I don't think it's right to just slip antiquated notions into the comic as a "wink wink" without explaining what you're doing (IF that's the case)? If it's not the case, then whoo whee do we have some issues either with how the creator views lesbian relationships or with the fact that apparently Hestia is a massive hypocrite!! But it's never addressed in the story!!
Thanks for leaving a comment!
@@pyrrhic_victoria in RS old Tumblr someone said: "you can be a virgin and have lady sex". Rachel said: "I see Hestia as asexual but slowly becoming gay over time" 🤢
@@jessnalulila5552 yikes thats some shit right there, especially with becoming gay over time like NO if you are ace you are ace, maybe you coud think you're ace to start cause you dont like guys and then realize oh wait actually i like women (not very likely imo), But you are not Born ace then you become anything else seriously wtf
@@jessnalulila5552 Y I K E S
2:23:06 Sleeping on the floor could symbolize she doesn't feel safe in her bed where the assault happened. But that would be an element of good writing which we're very unaccustomed to seeing so I'm not surprised y'all were confused.
the lyre is Apollo's sacred instrument, so for it not come up as something important and something he values as much as his own life, is very weird. if they had, damaging it would have been absolutely perfect. but never before mentioning his sacred instrument? nope. it's not where it's at
I feel silly, because I thought Persephone's height seemed smaller than before, but I didn't look. I do remember when I first read it, I thought her and Hades acted too familiar with their first meeting. If Hades was short, balding with a stained shirt, him calling her sweetness would've been creepy to everybody
lore Olympus' writing makes me feel better about my own 💀
All of this sounds so exhausting and just makes me want to listen to hadestown again because that one at least accepts that all the gods are garbage and bad relationships make for interesting and emotional drama exactly for that... thanks to anaïs mitchell's actual folklore ballad background. Whatever rachel's doing with her h&p is so tiring. Thanks for the Peach Girl rec at the end, sounds like a good palate cleanser too!
Peach Girl has its own problems/it's not perfect but it's a good dramatic romantic series, highly entertaining imo! It doesn't pretend to be anything more than it is either and the stakes stay pretty grounded
I think Lore Olympus relies a lot on people having major greek mythology prior knowledge especially when it involves certain details. I think LO doesnt do the best job of explaining some of the lore parts of greek mythology to an audience that more likely doesnt have that kind of prior knowledge.
Okay but if you try to look at it from the viewpoint of actual linguistic-historical interest in mythologies, it's even more insufferable as it already is...
this series is so great because honestly i dropped off before season 1 finished but ive kind of been keeping up with lore olympus on and off and its so fun to hear both you opinions on the series and improvements ect you're both doing great work! also the whole part about apollo literally had me in tears. the first time i read the series i didn't realize how poorly written his obsession with persephone was, but it really is comical when you put everything together. he's seriously such a weird character. him being written as being super delusional about their relationship is so poorly written also he really just acts lost and confused honestly. maybe hes just the first comic shitty ex boyfriend apollo and he's hopped into current lore olympus so he doesnt get what hes doing wrong lmao
When Pyrrhic pointed out just how robotic and repetitive he is and how weird it is, I laughed out loud! His actions are really bizarre and make no sense - I can't understand why someone would act like that unless they were possessed
@@pyrrhic_victoriaWhat if he was possessed, though... by Kronos! If Ouranos can use Apollo as a vessel, couldn't Kronos? If everyone's thirsting over fertility goddesses, that could be interesting.
i can say one if autor wanted actually make smth like forbidden love she did not actually had to put this age gap thing or make per 19 i mean persephone its a one of virgin goddess who cant be in relationship right? so such god actually falls in-love when she SHOULD NOT and she CANT. be with him. so here u already have Content of forbidden love. why the age gap was FOR!!?? for make ppl uncomfortable?? congrats Rachel you did your job :)
Dude, it's so weird - in literally every way the relationship can be forbidden, it is. Boss-employee? Check! Rich-poor? Check! Age gap? Check! Sophistication/Class gap? Check! Experienced and virgin/pure? Check! I don't know why - maybe it's because the creator doesn't want to put any real personality clashes or personal issues between the two so she has to create all of these weird barriers from the outside to make the relationship "interesting?"
But a 40+ yo man and a teen isn't interesting, it's just creepy!!
Thanks for commenting!
@@pyrrhic_victoria FR I LOVE YOUR PATCAST HAHA
@@ninaverseninaverse0190 Thanks pal! That means a lot!
I definitely agree with both of your critiques of Apollo's characterization, it's a mess both in the downgrade of Apollo's mythology and also feels off as an abusive predator. I'm not one to talk either as I have never been SA'd or been in an abusive relationship but for my writing, I try my best to look into how those situations happen and the abuser's mindset.
Apollo would have moments of being very aggressive and calculative to have Persephone, which could've gone the route of being a possessive misogynist or stalker. Maybe Apollo would have this fantasy of how he wants Persephone to be or how he's had women, but when it's not could lead to aggression or entitlement. That idea could make sense if played right, but then in Lore Olympus, he gets all sad boy or ignorant about why Persephone is turning him down which feels different than how malevolent he was acting during the assault. Not to mention after it, was played up more for shipping moments between Persephone and Hades.
I get it there is no specific mindset for abusers, abuse comes in many forms and has different mindsets ranging from the narcissist to the love bomber or whatnot. In writing, it can be hard to know when you're writing it properly, so let's just at least take this as an example of how to not do it.
For fellow writers who want to try to improve writing about abusers, I recommend looking into survivors' personal stories and the psychology/cycle of abuse. You can find journals from DV survivors of their perception but also there are psychology documents about the "exhaust/burn out" method, the cycle of abuse, even analysis of conviction abusers in interrogation. Overall, it's better to be real about it, even if it's fiction as it has a big impact.
i’m a lil drunk rn and when you were 58:40 like omg what do the gods even do and you said drinking i went “yaasss” to no one alone in my room LITERALLY PLAYING HADES LMAOO
I think the significance with Persephone looking out to Apollo's car is that she just went to the bathroom to make sure she wasn't pregnant, contemplated going to the clinic to confirm that she wasn't but unsure whether she should then looked out of the window to see his car and decided that she should go to the clinic because she doesn't want to be tied to Apollo AND ultimately that ruins her Saturday because she had to go get checked.
It's a hop and a skip and jump and a ferry to get there but they just couldn't convey it that way because "head empty" with Persephone's psyche.
Honestly, Persephone had so much potential as the MC. She had rich background as a village girl, and If writer actualy made her into imperfect teenager with flawed looks and nerdy personality(to add on top of good writing and less objectification), then I might as well started relating to her.
Also I dont have much of a problem when story purely focuses on romance and some aspects that affect it. It clearly shows that writers know what they want to write and they're upfront about it
LP on the other hand tries to bite more than it can chew. While everything still revolves around main relatiounship, for some reason author still adds unnecessary things that font contribute in abh way. It wastes time and shows that writer cant recognize what ideas might work and what dont.
Lastly, I wish there was conflict of Persephone naturally being afraid of Hades, because hes the complete opposite of what she represents. Like, of Persephone is naive, why dont just make her believe in pure evil and good? It whould gave been flawed morality, that us easily crushed by harsh reality that not all people are bad and not all good.
The only stakes in this comic are the ones Hades chokes down across the table from some chick he's only known for a week
just got into this little critique series but i just wanted to thank you for bringing up how weird minthe is treated in lore olympus. like even when i still kept up with this comic seeing all the aggressive fan backlash against someone as clearly bpd-coded/mentally ill as minthe (especially as someone with bpd) gave me a rancid taste in my mouth, bc if this is how you (general) treat a fictional character (and yeah fiction =/= reality yadda yadda) with a mental illness that isnt just "oh i cant get out of bed" or "oh i cant make an appointment on the phone," god only fucking knows how you treat the actually mentally ill people in your life!
I really appreciate how much time you spend talking about how messed up it is that this is marketed towards young girls. I started reading this comic when I was probably 15 or 16, and it really is so disturbing to look back at it and notice all these things that I didn't pay attention to when I was first reading it.
Apollo's character doesn't really make sense to me just because canon Apollo is more in touch with his feminine side while Artemis is more of the jock.
And like he could still be a villain as a theatre kid. Look at phantom of the opera.
Watching a sexual assault victim talk about being pressured to join a cult of virginity and her concerns about if she really wants to do this, and have a literal billionaire king go “yeah I get that. When I inherited an entire kingdom I kind of didn’t want it. That’s the same, right?”
The writer knows Persephone was sexually assaulted. Why would you EVER have a “good guy” compare himself to her in that way? It comes off so scummy.
Regarding your words that young girls are not attracted to older men, well... I have a friend (she's 21) who's attracted to older men, BUT
1. She said herself she doesn't feel like that's normal, and feels like she might be compensating the lack of a father figure in her life.
2. she dates guys about her age anyways, and never really took the idea of dating an older man seriously.
Sooooo
There's that?
Just wanted to say that it's not like this doesn't happen, but it shouldn't be romanticized. Especially with all the added context of Persefone being 19, the power gap, Hades's abusive tendencies and all that crap.
If I'm being honest, I never liked immortal characters in the stories. Like, hades is 2000 years old, he could gave gotten over his trauma thousands and thousands of times. By the time LO started he could have reached fuckin nirvana with his knowledge and expirience
3:44:12 I’ve seen lots of young women and girls be attracted to much older guys but I haven’t personally seen any of them pursue anything
I’ve seen lots of women **my age** talk about their experiences dating older men but by the time they’re talking about it it’s been years and they’re talking about it as a cautionary tale to other women and girls
Btw, Persephone IS related to Hades. Hades is the brother of Zeus and Poseidon. There's a bit of debate on whose the father, but obviously Demeter is the mom (sister to Zeus, Hades, and Poseidon) and either Zeus or Poseidon are the father of Persephone. So it's a brother and a sister having a kid, then their other brother marries and has children with that grown up kid.
I think they reveal that Poseidon and Demeter had a kid together, who is Persephone's half-brother, but her father is ever explicitly named. I know Rachel Smythe insisted that there is no incest in her Greek pantheon, though (as if that's the most problematic thing about LO hahaha).
3:12:16 funny enough, the Simpsons had an episode about assault and trauma. Where Marge gets robbed on the street and is afraid to leave her house for awhile. I'm sure it hasn't aged super well since the episode was like 10 yrs ago or so, but still. The point still stands that Simpsons can do it well cuz it's actually decently written lol
I never even realised those issues you brought up (perhaps cus of fantasy + extremely slow updates schedule), I'm now a proud hermes × persephone shipper. I personally think their personalities match better anyway,,,
Yep, especially when you consider Hermes is supposedly based off of her real-life partner haha
SHAPED LIKED A COKE BOTTLE SKAJDHFLAKJSHDF
Can't wait for part 4 and for yall to catch up. Hope you continue until the series ends. You point out not only things I already knew and agree with, but things i hadn't even thought of before. I never realized how skewed the storyline is. How events are so disorganized. It's been a while since i read older chapters I guess
*Oh we plan to.* Unfortunately for pyrrhic!!! I'm also currently covering the newest episodes episode by episode in excruciating detail over on Reddit, if you're interested! The tone is more batshit and the focus is more on the art but maybe it'll tide you over until we get to that trainwreck: www.reddit.com/r/UnpopularLoreOlympus/comments/x12zeo/ep_207_all_the_panels_i_laughed_at/?
I also wrote a long post specifically on the art decline and what elements contributed the most to the OG LO aesthetic.
Thanks again for watching!
@@pyrrhic_victoria Hell yes! I'll check that out right away. The old art was better in some aspects. The anatomy was a bit wonkier in some panels, but overall the colors were better. I find that new LO is very over saturated with colors. It's like RS said "every color needs to be super saturated and vibrant now!!" Hade's place is now all one shade of blue instead of various shades. Persephone's particular pink shade hurts my eyes but that's more of a nitpick. But yeah there's less moody and pale colors
@@devillass6025 Funny you mention that about RS because she has mentioned in interviews that she cranked the colors way up in response to "criticism" that her comic was "too colorful." I agree, the colors really suck now vs the beginning, and it's kinda hilarious to think she did that to spite the critics (?) if that was indeed her primary motivator. The old art was super nice, and it definitely influences my own art in regards to composition, color, and effects.
3:11:25 I've seen this issue in unOrdinary too. I love it and I've been following the series since like 2016 but they have consistent content warnings for language, right? But then in a few chapters where someone is either brutally attacked or killed, there is no warning for that. Not that I mind the violence but having a "parental advisory" warning for only strong language when gore is way worse? Come on, uruchan... 😪
And the lyre is something hermes gave him after he stole his cows as a baby. To appease him he gave him the lyre made out of turtle shell and intestines.
and yeah, I think Ares or Hermes would be better love interests for persephone
Maybe not Ares, he's incapable of taking a "no"
@@jessnalulila5552 especially in the latest FP 💀 RIP old Ares. I guess Rachel had to character assassinate him since he was legit competition for boring Hades??? Who knows!!?
Hermes is just mwah
Hermes reminds me of my partner
@@pyrrhic_victoria it’s strange though Bc in some episodes after the time skip there is still stuff going on between them, I don’t understand why she keeps inserting it if she isn’t going to make it a second love interest lol
It is so weird how they made the only real plus size leaning character in the show heavily implied to be aromatic solely because she does not date men. Like I crave plus size queer women in media and was somewhat glad Hestia was with Athena later on, but it just feels off to me how the only body variation in this webtoon occurs in characters only if said character is not straight/ not supposed to be attractive to men. In Hecate's case, it very much feels fatphobic.
i think a much more interesting love triangle would have had persephone's character fully lean into the sheltered, naive, dorky country-bumpkin beat and have hades taking advantage of that, meanwhile aries is chaotic and somewhat toxic but is one of the only people in her life without ulterior motives and treats her as an equal (scrap the anger powers bit though obviously). hades truly reads as a humbert humbert type predator who feels emasculated and out of control bc of trauma and issues in his life so he wants to overcompensate control in his relationship with persephone. obviously this would never happen bc it would end up playing out as persephone slowly realizing this relationship with hades is not normal or equal and either ending it or forcing him to take accountability for the shitty things he's done and deal with his problems in a way that isn't just "uwu aww sad boy *hugs* nothing is your fault bc you have trauma"
if hades and persephone just HAS to be endgame then i think a more impactful way to write them for people reading who might have experienced real trauma would be to have persephone and hades act as almost foils to each other with how they deal with trauma, with persephone internalizing and hades externalizing, and giving both of them a proper arc separate from the love story where they reconcile that
edit: omg i hadn't gotten to the part where they reveal aries is dating aphrodite?! is there anyone who doesn't want to leave their gf for persephone?? 😂😂
Honestly, I remember when the ares reveal first happened, and being thankful that there was finally a character that didn’t treat her like she was made of glass. I would have LOVED to see her actually have honest relationships with other men before settling on Hades, and since she never DOES explore herself outside relationships, or even her own sexuality, we’re left with a really inconsistent character. It’s also really common for people who are sheltered to date at least one person who is edgy, chaotic, and bad for them, and ares would fit that bill. But idk maybe she wakes up and realizes, hey, I don’t like who I am when I’m with this guy who eggs me on to be destructive or whatever.
Persephone is literally never allowed to be her own person, and every single character around her forces their fantasies of who they WANT her to be onto her. And the worst part is that we are never given the opportunity to see her actually embrace herself. Which its so weird and creepy that she’s portrayed as manipulative and cunning with men, UNLESS ITS HADES. Then she’s extremely pure and virginal wifey material. Her writing is so inconsistent, and her potential was utterly wasted.
Lore Olympus seems like a Wattpad book turned into a comic.
I stayed caught up on lore Olympus until recently. Something just suddenly felt really really off, watching this series makes me think it was the composition dipping. I have a thing where when I start something I feel like I have to finish it, so having ya'lls extensive breakdown and tear through has filled that void for me!
I loved listening to your deconstruction, I've been bingeing it while drawing. Although... it's kinda awkward since my name is also Rachel and every time I hear "Rachel doesn't know how to do this and that" I find it funny. xDDD Hopefully when I make my series I will avoid all the stuff you pointed out. Lack of contingency is honestly my biggest fear in storytelling. Plus boring characters. Plus too many story lines. Lol
Really appreciate you breaking this down, especially towards the end. I was never that invested in this story to begin with so I didn't read very closely or critically at all. But I still find it concerning how much went completely over my head. Had no idea the story was considered YA either.
I frequently saw the YA rating and cringed a little. In one of the earliest chapters, Eros mentions overseeing an orgy. The animations are kiddy-like while the content is inappropriate, at times.
I agree! It'd be more interesting if Persephone and Hades were bonding over being *social outcasts- they could even be antiheroes. I'd even 1. cut Eris' gift of wrath from the plot and 2. have Hades smoothly court Persephone (not have Hades avoiding her via Minthe, cause that's unfair to Minthe).
*But then again, Smythe's version of Hades isn't sold as a cold, intimidating, rejected bachelor, YET we're told that almost no one likes him. Hera, Zeus, Poseidon, Hecate, Athena, Nyx, Hebe, Hephaestus, Eris, Ares, etc. are all fond of Hades. Why not 'go the distance' and make him an outright (maybe misunderstood) villain? Demeter is the real social outcast, if anything.
the whole time i was reading lore olympus i kept thinking that minthe would be the one to find out abt persephone’s situation w apollo so it was really dissatisfying to see that go completely nowhere. Artemis and Hera are such nothing characters it would have been nice to see persephone get some more girlfriends on her own
13:36 honestly I didn’t even notice her lack of wrath until you mentioned it
And like considering she basically went on a fucking murder spree after her friends died (mostly by accident) at the hands of mortals like
It’s odd
The gods are known for being terrible in all the best and worst ways and her act of wrath against mortals is something that shows why you should be careful with and respectful of them
But there’s nothing like that anywhere else in the story and it’s just
Odd
EDIT: also in the mythology Minthe becoming a mint plant was divine retribution but in this comic it’s just an accident
1:54:03 I think this is all about the fertility goddess connection. Since Hades and Persephone are in love, or whatever, they'll enhance one another's powers
(🚨SPOILER ALERT:
Like how Hades became Titan-sized in the midst of the trial).
I read only the first couple chapters of LO out of curiosity way back but immediately dropped it because it was boring and made no sense. It still doesn't make sense. There's gods, but the god world is like our modern world, but the human world is primitive, but the gods talk like modern people with modern technology, but humans worship them and they're living in Ancient Greek times??? Why is there a weird 50 shades thing with Hades being a company CEO, but actually he is still a king of the underworld, but also he runs a company? Why is Persephone 19 but all the other gods are centuries old? Why do they go to school?? Why are there things like Persephone being a cereal brand heiress?? When you die, you go to the underworld and live in a capitalist hellscape working for Hades also??? Why??? WHY ARE THERE PAPARAZZI???
Like jfc the writer can't do world-building to save her life. Just f*cking PICK ONE, stop inserting every stupid trope and fanfic idea into the story. Listening to you describe these later episodes makes me so glad I dropped it so fast because oh my god it is a sh!tshow.
Hearing yall try to contextualize the plot really hammers home the need for planning your story’s ending/important plots beforehand.
This story has a real potential for many interesting sub-diversions of tropes/cliches if the author still wants to go that direction, or just not, regardless the way yall pick at it makes it obvious.
When I started reading it I fell off quickly. I don’t remember the reason but I think it’s because I got a little impatient waiting for episodes, so I’d wait a few months and binge read, forget what happened, and repeat. Hence I never really got to criticize it. Once the first few meet cute of Hades and Persephone were done it just, eh.
Also don’t do Will and Hannibal like that! But could you imagine if LO went the corruption route like Hannibal did- would be interesting.
All in all inconsistent characterization really hurts to watch unfold. But what irks me more is the mishandling of important issues planted in the plot. Like, the very least, having a fluffy plot that ignores the severity of a power-imbalance relationship is well, it’s fiction, there’s a crowd for that, but if you’re going to introduce assault, deal with it? And worldbuilding, give readers context for how your world works. Suspension of belief is an author’s friend, just give readers context!
I also want to say as a young reader who was in that young demographic for when LO came out, I realized how glossed over the power-imbalance is? I wonder if there’s any good love-stories that are self-aware of their power imbalance trope or at least use it well. If anyone has any suggestions I’d love to read!
Like I feel that the themes of the story should be very emphasized. Proper content warnings. Proper marketing. But those also in part boil down to if the story itself handles its themes seriously.
A story that gets a huge spotlight gets a huge bout of criticism and love. That’s the other thing- it’s very popular, I’ve seen it be advertised/promoted a lot when I was interested jn Webtoons. Imo I’d hate for my first written/illustrated stories to gain a large following when I know I’d be experimenting and trying to nail my story’s plot and tone. I’d imagine my ideal crowd would be small enough to get criticism without it “breaching containment”- that said it wouldn’t go on WEBTOON but that’s just me.
Secondly, it’s an interesting thing that this story is largely based on Greek mythology for its story and characters, which makes me wonder- how popular would this be with an original cast or characters/original cast of gods/pantheon made for the world the author wrote? Would it still have surged in popularity?
Iirc mythology is already fluid in a sense. I remember reading somewhere that many stories about the Gods and deities changed over the years as culture and society changed. So giving an interpretation will always be in some part “wrong”.
Reading the other comments here, basing this story off of existing mythology also just seems pretty harmful given the context of the original hymn(?) story(?) that was about Persephone in the first place.
In the story’s own plot without the background of mythology, it just doesn’t seem to land anywhere with an exceptional two dimensional characters. Mother bad. That’s it? Why? It’s just perpetuating harmful messages when the story isn’t showing a more nuanced telling. (Edit: on that note, I don’t recall reading any romance that does have a parent involved other than “they’re dead/cut off” etc. The only one with a strong presence would be the mother from I Love Yoo, (and Yoo’s father
SO GLAD TO SEE YOUR VIDEOS BACK UP!! WOOHOO
Rachel smyth should have never A-published her webtoon because of popularity especially with no editing and B not proofreading anything before posting where is the professionalism, how come the art looks so different, mangakas have assistants but the art never changes so why her art does she not care?
I know it’s been a minute but I think Clementine in her now archived video essay was able to get access to the Patreon and it’s very much indulging in the ddlg stuff 3:27:42
You guys need to link your own comics in the description!!
Will do! They're not similar to LO in terms of tone or genre though so I don't know if it'll be your cup of tea, but thanks for asking! We've also linked our webtoon profile in our UA-cam channel page.
Thanks for watching and leaving a comment!
I can’t believe I watched you guys all day and read along
I ALWAYS FELT LIKE PERSOPHONE DESIRVES MOM LIKE DOMITOR OR WTF HER NAME IS DOMITOR ACTS LIKE NORMAl mom FOR A CHD WHO DATES 40 years old man but the story treats her as " bad" Persiphone needs mom like her to teach her lesson
Demeter's deal is never explained and the story basically casts her as a villain when her motivations are understandable to anyone who's not a teenager...especially to women who've experienced how creepy some men can be! But no, she stands in the way of the OTP so she's automatically evil.
@@pyrrhic_victoria FRRR 😂
The funny thing is that the original myth is ENTIRELY on Demeter's side. It's about her trauma, her pain, what a parent goes through when their child is kidnapped. Hades kidnaps Persephone after getting the go-ahead from Zeus, Persephone is tricked into staying but still gets to see her mom half the year. The story is Demeter vs her asshole brothers and the innocent Kore stuck as the victim.
@@Tareltonlives i heard short version of it happened that I actually HAD MYTHOLOGY LESSON😂 my webtoon i working on is also about legends myths rummors and some fantastic teoryes work tougether however thing i try to say i dont think ill add there greek myth because i am afraid i wont be able handle it well lol. as writter . i just cant understand what interest u should have pick something that already exsist and so fuck up
Even within the story, I still think Demeter is MORE than fair in being terrified and protective (if a bit overbearing). We literally see Aphrodite needing to seduce Zeus in order to save her son when he commits an “unlawful act of rage” or whatever. Zeus will only make exceptions if he is grated a sexual favor, and Demeter would either be submitting herself or her teenaged daughter to that.
So yeah, I feel like her fear is not only understandable, but warranted.
Of course though, exposing a teenaged girl to a 40-50yo man who has no qualms with banging teenagers is only gross and icky if he isn’t the lead 🙄
2:13:34 About Semele and the loom- I am decently familiar with Greek mythology but I don’t remember anything about Semele and a loom.I tried looking it up but I didn’t find anything. So yeah,I’m just as confused as you are.
nexst season will be like persiphone gets pregnant from apolo AND HEADES CANT TAKE THIS CHILD AND THAN THEY WILL ASK. APOLO FOR ALIMENTS
I really, really hope not! I think the pregnancy scare episode was honestly (cynically?) the creator trying to "wipe the slate clean" and remove *all* consequences that Apollo's SA had for Persephone - because she rarely ever thinks about it and the trauma doesn't seem to last in her relationship with Hades, and the creator didn't want the dangling possibility of pregnancy either.
Thanks for the comment!!
@@pyrrhic_victoria YRW I STILL WHATCHING IT LOL
I just recently discovered your channel and I adore the commentary as it is insightful of how one should deliver storyline that is concise but also filled up to the brim with what's important as someone who is crafting their own stories.
That aside, I adore Athena ever since I was introduced to the mythology and I was disappointed by how she made the characters who are known as asexual/aromantic in modern interpretation [i.e. Hestia & Athena] to have partners, when there's no need to change it. It is just a poor decision and it does not really serve anything plot-wise.
How dare you compare Hades to the masterpiece Will Graham and Hannibal from NBC were 😭
Apparently Hades was originally based off of Mads Mikkelsen....
@@pyrrhic_victoria no fucking way 😭
This is a bit like a poorly executed attempt to be like Ore Monogatari, in the sense that it is a romance/comedy where we get more about the male protagonist's thoughts and baggage than the female one. By doing this, it sells us the idea of a super devoted, respectful guy who does not come in the typical idea of a handsome, cinematic "Mr Right" but is still absolutely Mr Right.
Key difference: OM is damn sure who his protagonist is and clings to his perspective mostly. He is the one with the interesting plotline. In LO, we are made to believe Persephone is the protagonist, but we get so much more depth with Hades. It has a crisis of perspective, which makes it feel disjointed and more like a collection of events than a story.
Apollo could've been a great villain fr, I was expecting her to get caught stealing the lyre and a fight to go down but nahhh
I can't belive is has not even been a month in story time. I couldn't deal with this story because in 20 chapters nothing happened and now I see that didn't change lol
Fantastic video, I love this discussion! I have to disagree on one thing, though. There are definitely men as dense as Apollo lol
You know when I was first reading this it never hit me that it had only been a few days since they’d met each other and they just were thrown into the situationship (if you can even call it that) from the get go
If 50 shades of gray is a shitty fanfic if Twilight, then Lore Olympus is shitty delf insert fanfic of Lolita
yknow, the idea of "maidenhood" and artemis especially has been associated with and theorized to refer also to lesbianism, and i can defintely see an author wanted to explore that but... to make the scholarship group specifically about chastity just completely destroys that idea. like thats not how you explore ancient concepts with modern perspectives. its just copypasted without any kind of care or nuance
honestly i hate that the group was meant to explore purity culture at all, because thats a very specific modern USian thing. in greece the mandatory gendered sexual behavior for women was "marriage and babys", but ohhh we cant have our protag criticize THAT institution, because how else will our couple end in marriage and babys??
even dumber that persephone mentions how the concept of virginity is bullshit but also its a thing eros can detect.
There was this part that I think was pointed out in this video, I don’t quite remember because its been a while since I listened to it but, there was this part where Persephone is saying “oh I just want to take it slow” or something with hades and it reminded me of this story i just read called mayhem and miscreants or something. And the main couple are related in the sense of step son-step father and then they… uhhh yknow, fuck. Then the step father is like ur putting me in a situation and i just remembered what persephone said and it was like… isnt this kinda similar? But persephone acts like theyre fucking when she and hades are not???? And hes like in a relationship…
dude i love enchanted but its was make more sense for dezel idk how to write her name to act like she were acting😂
I love Enchanted too, because when it came to Giselle it was *self-aware.* First, Giselle had a lot of positive qualities before she changed, like being a happy, positive person with a can-do attitude, but it also emphasized her negative and unrealistic/unhealthy attributes as well, such as her inability to express any negative emotions or her helplessness/weird codependent relationship with the prince. Enchanted was a real *deconstruction* of Disney tropes, whereas LO, for as much as Rachel claims it's a deconstruction, does nothing more than reinforce harmful and sexist narratives and attitudes about women and their role in relationships. And Persephone acting like Giselle is never portrayed as a bad thing - in fact, in recent episodes Hades goes out of his way to shield and coddle her from responsibility because that's what he finds *charming* about her - her infantile qualities.
The more you think about it, the grosser it gets!
Thanks for the comment!
I'm very glad I found your channel! I love the critiques and discussions! But also WHERE DO YOU GET YOUR CLOTHES?! Seriously both of you guys look STUNNING!
Thanks for the compliment, pal! Both of us shop secondhand on places like eBay, Poshmark, and Mercari. I (Victoria) additionally buy accessories on Etsy when I'm looking for something specific that I can't find on eBay. Usually I score loads of high quality clothes for cheap on eBay!
Looks like a lot of work!!!
But it's fun though! Haha thanks for commenting
agein that not mith that happens and that is huge issue 😭😭😭😭😂
I honestly believe it is the weekly format.
1:09:51 okay so I think this is a really good point
Like I was sheltered as a child and my experience is def VERY different from y’all’s
I’m de facto no contact with my father
It’s kinda amazing tbh lol
But I have like 2 things:
1) it’s said multiple times in the comic iirc that P*rs*ph*ne grew up constantly around flower nymphs, some whom she planted/grew herself, all who she considered her sisters and how weird it is to be alone cuz she was always hanging out with nymphs, laying beside them, doing chores with them, etc
And
2) in the OG D*m*ter is shown to be obviously traumatized and grieving to the point of divine wrath when her daughter **literally does go missing**
Like there’s a way to have a more satisfying happy middle between the helicopter mom in the comic and the OG deep mother/child intimacy
And also
Like what about the nymphs? She literally says their her **sisters**
Being away from a sibling you grew up with and spent so much time with us just
**incredibly fucking hard**
I'm just wondering, but why did you censor the goddesses names?
29:12 I literally have zero memory if the pregnancy thing btw
I’m pretty good at remembering what I read too
This is a cute panel ngl but like
Out of context like this it feels more akin to someone considering a new piercing or tattoo or even looking at a bug bite than what it’s supposed to he
3:21:16 ITS NOT FOR YOUNG GIRLS! It’s so obvious and I think the creator even mentioned it at least once? But it’s BY AND FOR ADULTS! Which is why I hate that the animation is going to be targeted at kids, it’s why I hate that WEBTOON has no problem putting it in front of kids and pushing it to them without giving any warning of “hey this isn’t meant for kids so make sure to talk to your parents about this” or “hey this isn’t meant for kids so maybe as a parent you should read it first and then decide if you’re kid is gonna be cool with this”
Rachel Smythe bears responsibility for this as well. If she really doesn’t want young girls-her primary audience and customer base-consuming this material, she has not lifted a finger to keep it out of their hands. She has been perfectly happy to let Webtoon push her work on children-primarily girls-and signed the deal for an animated show directed toward a young audience. A few token pronouncements about her intended adult audience don’t change those facts.
She feeds extremely young, impressionable girls a highly sexist, morally rotten love story in which a sheltered young woman breaks free of the “abusive” mother who wants to protect her from powerful older men … in order to have sex with a powerful older man. She pretends this is an empowering, “feminist” story, and she’s made a lot of money doing it.