Dyno Testing Piston Rings - Conventional, Metric , Gas Ported & Gapless Rings - Surprising Results!
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- Опубліковано 25 лис 2024
- Shaver Specialties Racing Engine has been building championship winning engines for decades, and over that time, their choice of piston rings have evolved. In this detailed video, "Dyno" Don MacAskill and Lake Speed Jr reveal their proven test methodology, and then take you through the process of testing traditional 1/16, 1/16, 3/16 size rings versus modern 1.0, 1.0, 2.0mm rings. The guys also try a Gapless & Gas Ported 1.0mm top ring just for fun.
This video builds off a 10 year history of testing, so here are the links to the previous tests mentioned in the video.
Gas Port Testing (No Gas Ports vs Gas Ported Rings vs Gas Ported Pistons) • Do Gas Ports Reduce Bl...
Engine Performance Expo - Dyno Testing 101
• Engine Performance Exp...
Proper Engine Break-In Procedure - Dyno
• Don't RUIN Your Engine...
Engine Break-In Without a Dyno
• How To Break-In An Eng...
Engine Temperature Effects of Piston Rings
• Engine Running HOT? Wa...
#RacingEngine #CylinderBore #CylinderHoning #PistonRings #Enginetechnology #horsepower #engine
Keep doing your thing, Mr. Speed! We car buffs truly appreciate it!!!
Even the 1/16 ring package is hands down better than the old school 5/64 rings. They were a pain to work with and typically take ~35 lb/ft to turn the crank. Just going to 1/16 rings cuts it to around 40 percent of the 5/64. I can’t imagine how awesome the 1mm rings are! A side benefit of low tension rings is that your bore hardly wears. At 150,000 miles my 1990 Mustang 5.0 had ZERO lip in the cylinder. And they use 1/16 rings.
Imagine an old flathead with 4 rings...
The better the oils and metals get, the less rings you need lol.
These guys are living the dream! Getting PAID to work on engines and dyno testing them.
Very true!
Is the Gapless gas ported ring in 1mm x 1mm x 2mm a viable choice for a True street driven vehicle? I am talking about a 400 to 500 horse smallblock?
Thanks for the question. For a pure street driven engine, we'd recommend a gas ported top ring. The gapless/gas ported combo is just for racing.
@@TotalSeal thank you!
@TotalSeal
I am very curious why not gapless top ring on a street vehicle. I do hyper-mileing and would like to have those gains. Would gas-ported top ring and gapless second ring work for my application?
Can you do a test on speed of air piston sometime just like you did keep everything else the same and see if there compression differences and see if there is much to gain on that area
Will do!
I love the energy you guys put into your videos thanks for all the info...
Thanks
The way that third guy looked at Lake using that speeder told me 2 things. 1. He's got a Milwaukee he bought a year or two ago and its the greatest thing since sliced bread. 2. He spent the 30 years crapping on air tools extolling the virtues of the speeder.
You'd be right
Tremendous job. Can't wait to include this Gas Ported option in my '43 Flathead build. Just a hint of modern high tech with ol'school classic 👍🏻
Thanks!
@@machinesnmetal Not running yet, although it's very close to initial testing. Awaiting radiator restoration.
Thanks for sharing this with us you all!
Our pleasure!
How about a line of conversion rings? Can a ring be made with the 5/64 base and step down to the 1mm OD to convert older pistons to the newer thin ring system? There are some of us that just can't afford $1,000 or more for a new set of pistons or the oddball piston that there is no off the shelf support for. I for one love to go outside of the box, unfortunately I, like many others don't have unlimited budgets.
Sometimes we have spacers for adapting old 5/64th rings.
What about a comparison of a standard 1/16 properly filed fit moly ring vs max seal 1/16 Gapless rings.
Like to see crank case psi and engine vacuum difference to see if the max seal is worth the extra $200.00
There’s always more ideas that we’d like to test than we have dyno time available to test, but maybe we will get around to that one sometime.
Awsome work !!
What kind of ring material would you guys recommend for a Nikasil treated cylinder wall ? Its for a 500cc Husqvarna supermoto, and im also on the fence between what piston should i go for Wossner x Wiseco x Mahle
Thanks for the question. A steel top ring with either a CrN or TiN face coating is recommended. Also, the oil ring rails should be non-chrome.
Excellent video. My question about thin ring packages is the longevity and oil consumption. Do they hold their tension on the cylinder walls over time like thick rings do? And what kind of increased oil consumption can you assume with the thin rings?
Great questions. Because the thinner rings are made from steel, they do hold their tension better than the thick, cast iron rings.
Also, oil consumption is really a function of oil ring tension, so that is something that can be tuned. One of our R&D engines has thin rings with higher tension oil rings and there is zero oil consumption.
@@TotalSeal thanks for answering and being so on top of this subject. Your videos are excellent!
@@CherezianRacing thank you!
What about longevity of the 1mm 1mm 2mm ring compared to the standard thickness ring? Are piston prices equivalent? Thanks for the video!
The 1mm, 1mm, 2mm rings will live longer than the 1/16, 1/16, 3/16 rings by at least double the life, and the piston prices are equivalent. The @EnginePerformanceExpo engine uses off the shelf pistons (not custom) that came with 1mm, 1mm, 2mm ring grooves.
ABout 8 years ago, I was at an auto show, two guys with engine builder experience noticed the thin rings in a cutaway of a new Ford engine. They were stenned and asked "Do these last? How can they last?" I had some information from Total Seal and from Engine builder magazine to explain it.
I said "The the rings are forged steel instead of iron. The performance coating on the rings is a better alternative to chrome. The reduced friction puts less wear on the bore. Sometimes you could rehone the engine when on older engines, a rebore would have been mandatory." I also explained that people who race SBC and Ford Flathead engines buy pistons that accept these narrow rings. It gives them an edge. The two guys were amazed, and the salesman from Ford were fascinated by what I said.
I may have missed a few details, and maybe I even got a thing or two wrong. However, I definitely got the point across that the narrow rings do last, potentially more than thick old rings.
I do not know if that Ford had 1mmX1mmX2mm rings. It may have been equipped with 1.2mmX1.2mmX2.5mm rings or some other narrow ring combo. However, the point that these rings are possible due to forged steel and alternatives to chrome do explain long life.
Great video Gentlemen! With respect to lower water & oil temps running the 1mm ring package, is this mainly from the reduced piston ring friction, and or due to less heat transfer from the piston/combustion chamber? Less heat transfer means a hotter piston/chamber which equals more HP? Thank you!
Thanks for the question. The reduced water and oil temperature indicate it is due to reduced friction. If the heat was staying in the piston, the water temperature would drop but the oil temperature would increase (the oil will still pull heat from the pistons regardless of the rings).
As such, these results show the reduced cylinder bore friction is reducing overall engine temperature. That reduced friction relates to the increased horsepower.
Great video Lake! You and Don are Awesome!!!!!! 👍👍👍👍
Thanks!
Has anyone done dyno tests of the same engine, piston, ring combination but with different piston ring gaps? We spend so much effort and a lot of talk is done around getting the ring gaps correct but how much does it really matter? Too small is obviously bad but how bad is too big? I wonder if you only really see the difference on your high power US V8 type engines. I play with vintage 4 cylinder British engines with 1/10 the horse power so I doubt the ring gaps matter much at all!
Those test have been done. You are correct. Most people worry too much about end gap. The independent testing we know of showed no power gain between and end gap factor of .006 per inch of bore size and a factor of .004 per inch of bore size.
@totalseal
Can you please explain why you’d suggest a gas ported top ring over a gas ported “gapless” ring on a weekend muscle car or street car ?
Love these videos guys really really good info sharing here 😊
The gas ported only top ring will be easier on the bore and valve stem seals than a Gapless/Gas Ported top ring.
I would only assume, as power and cylinder pressure increase, the power gain is going to increase as well, no? Particularly in a diesel application?
Yes, the higher the cylinder pressure, the more power the engine will make. This is true of both gasoline and diesel engines.
Audio goes mute or just a faint buzz in large sections of the video. Don's voice is powerful. Did he somehow break your mic?
Speaking of "manipulate the data", didn't the old Splitfire ads honestly state that they first ran conventional spark plugs in a dyno test, then ran another test with their split-fire plugs and saw a significant performance improvement. Was perhaps the engine cold in that first run? Might have just stated, "up to 30% more", which actually means, "no more than 30%", i.e. could be -20% and still satisfy that statement.
What do you think about the HASTINGS ring sets
What's funny is all the race car guys be like...gotta have that gapless ported ring.....but it would actually benefit a pick up truck the most lol.
The gas ported rings are awesome for street engines.
@@TotalSealwhat about a boosted application for gas ported rings
Are the the 1mm 1mm 2mm rings goood to install in a street driven engine? If so will they last as long as standard rings for instance the popular gym 350 engine? Thanks
Yes, the 1, 1, 2mm rings are excellent for street cars and will outlast the standard size rings.
What’s the best ring package is best for methanol?
A 1.0, 1.0, 2.0mm PVD coated steel ring set with an appropriate cylinder bore finish for methanol (Rpk 10-15, Rk 30-40 and Rvk of 50-60) works great.
You're so excited you forgot to say much the gains were - I like the idea but till I see a independent test like engine masters or Richard holdener I'm not convinced totally - still interesting
The final test results are coming out today. The new video explains some additional details.
What would be the weight difference? Or you guys compensate / equalize the weights?
Good question. Yes, the 1mm rings are lighter than 1/16 rings, so we did factor that in.
In what respect did you factor that in?
I would like to see the numbers on rotation force /torque difference just from rotating the crank from one ring set to another?
We should have done that. Next time…
@@TotalSeal Oh by the way, a couple years back I needed rings for a kawasaki v-twin that I was building slightly modified. Had cast sleeves installed did away with the nicaseal. Everyone says bad ideal? I say cast bores have been around over a hundred year - ha! Your guys in Phoenix hooked me up with a coated top ring.
In addition the oil comsumption on this engine is tablespoons between oil changes.
So .I should call Total Seal find out the ring package should be order pistons and ask what bore finish I need.? That's what I'm thinking
On a street car I want too drive anywhere
Yep, call 623-587-7400 to speak with our tech guys.
Okay, so is the gapless gas ported top ring always going to make more HP?
Also, can we put the 2MM oil ring in the 3/16" groove with a spacer?
We already have to run spacers in our ring grooves....
There are not spacers for the oil ring, but we can change the tension on the 3/16 oil ring to match the tension of a 2mm oil ring.
@@TotalSeal
Sure. I run 6# to 8# tension now. It was just interesting to read about the difference in "standard" tension.
@@AlanRoehrich9651 Yep, it is something often overlooked or misunderstood.
@@TotalSeal
Well, we just ran into an issue of the 3/16" hastings style "expander" having a massive end gap.
I always liked the old SS50-U oil ring because swapping the expander easily set the tension.
The hastings style expander and rail isn't nearly so familiar and comfortable.
@@AlanRoehrich9651 the flex vent style is different, but it is better for engines that pull crankcase vacuum as they are less restrictive on oil flow back through the oil drain back holes.
What break in should I use on a street car?
Check out our videos on break-in oils and break-in procedures:
ua-cam.com/video/teDgJgPeeeU/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/6XEYJrSqHtw/v-deo.html
Curious to how many cubes this engine. Dyno seems pretty happy if its a stock stroke 350.
They said in the follow up vid it is 380+ inches
@@derrelcarter9401 ok, that makes more sense then. Probably a 383 0r 385 stroker. Thank you for letting me know.
Yep, it is 383 CI.
Hello, i am doing a tribological report for university and i was studying your system of gas ported rings from total seal to prove its effectiveness. I was going to do a computational analysis to measure the back pressure of the rings and use your experiment to validate it. (its obviously all referenced involving total seal company) and was just wondering if it would be possible to obtain key parameters from that engine like cylinder diameter, bore diameter, compression ratio and other useful parameters or information that would help me to perform a computational analysis. Thank you, i love your work!
That's awesome. The engine is a 4.050 bore, with a 10:1 compression ratio and 3.750 stroke.
@@kilianlastrasbetancor5416 We don't have combustion analysis on that engine, so we don't have the Indicated Mean Effective Pressure per cylinder. However, the peak torque is 474 Pound Feet. You could divide that by 8 to get the power per cylinder.
is there any engine spec sheet i can use as reference?
Thank you! @@TotalSeal
I have a 302 Chevy with TRW 12.5 pistons. 1/16- 1/16- 1/8 oil rings. Street car, TRW rings. It burned oil in 5000 miles. At that time (40+yrs ago) they said can't run racing rings on the street. Oil ring too thin- low tension...they suggested Cadillac 390 rings 1/16-1/16-3/16.
Haven't used that engine in years. I want to revive it. Question: should I open up the oil ring groove to 3/16" or do you make 1/16-1/16-1/8 gas port rings for the street?
I do have a piston chuck for my lathe. I'm a retired auto machinist. So I'm capable. Can you give me the part number?
4" std bore. ( It's a made 302 from a 283)
Thanks. Great site!
Go with the 3/16 oil rings. Contact the tech department for details. 623-587-7400
So thin oil rings are no good for street (for longevity) 1/8" or your thin oil rings?
If thin oil rings are not for a street car you should say so.
Did the actual hp and torque numbers ever get published anywhere? Was there a test with a 1mm gas ported non-gapless ring as the gas ported + gapless ring isn't recommended for the street?
The 1mm gas ported only test is coming later. Parts supply impacted the ability to do all the tests at the same time.
Were the cylinders given a fresh hone when the rings/pistons changed out?
Yes!
Hi, i see lot information of regarding pistons, but can you advise what type of oil rings are best for high rpm engines. Are three-piece rings better than two-piece rings? I've heard opinions that three-piece elements wear out quickly.
Three piece oil rings are certainly better for high RPM engines. The oil ring wear can be controlled by the proper coatings and honing.
What do you do to maintain rotating assembly balance when replacing pistons and ring assemblies?
Great question! When going from the 1mm rings to the 1/16th rings, we have to rebalance the crankshaft because of the change in weight.
I love your content. I want to try a gapless top ring if you have a 87.5mmx1.2mm gapless/gas ported 1st or 2nd ring available that fits my Mahle pistons (p/n 197755345). Just one small thing though: the coolant temp reduction you saw at 1.0mm is likely because the rings are the main way the pistons cool down and less ring thickness keeps more heat in the pistons . Sure there is less friction and that’s part of the hp increase but keeping the heat in also participates and may be the main factor, who knows? Next, you can try a thermal barrier coating, a hear JE has a good one and they can coats any piston on special order for 20-something per piston. That will definitely help keep the heat in the chamber and, everything else being identical, may give some great insights!
Thanks for the comment. We love making these videos and sharing what we find. The part number for a gas ported, 1.2mm top ring for a 87.5mm bore is 102100GP. The Gapless & Gas Ported version is 102100GPF.
In regards to the temperature reduction, it is not from trapping heat in the piston. We can say that with certainty because the oil temperature did not increase. In fact, the oil temperature decreased. If the thinner piston rings trapped the heat in the piston, then the oil temperature would have increased because 40% of piston cooling comes from the oil splashing up unto the pistons. This is what cools the under crown area of the piston. The pro race teams we work with all use piston oilers to provide the primary means of cooling the pistons.
We cover that in this video: ua-cam.com/video/gNbzvWs-DEM/v-deo.html
@@TotalSeal Great to see mention about piston cooling jets and their value. It has been said it was a huge reason that people were turning up the boost in the Nissan 300ZX Turbo and Twin Turbo and getting away with it.
You guys are the Very first professional Dyno shop Ive ever seen with a Box Store Carburetor on it the absolutely least performance orientated Carbs on the planet .. So I'm kinda wondering about any info from that point ...
The Edelbrock carb is for consistency. We are not trying to make max power. We just want consistency, and a professionally rebuilt Edelbrock carb does that job amazingly well.
Would Blow-by Psi measurement be Useful to help verify & correlate the ring Sealing benefit conclusions ??
Good question. In an engine not pulling crankcase vacuum, you must have a vent to prevent crankcase pressure from unseating the rings. As such, your best bet is measuring the volume of blow-by through a fixed orifice gauge.
We had major oil burning issues with the gapless rings....it was even getting up in the intake, we chased it for a year until finally going back to conventional.
We are sorry to hear that. Some engine combinations don’t respond well to the stronger intake signal and reduced blow-by. It is hard to know which engines will like the Gapless rings, but the ones that do, love them.
@@TotalSeal Ya that's very true because we have had many engines that were fine.
Who is "we".
I've found when someone uses "we",it's usually not the poster,but someone they work with or have a weak association with.
What makes it more questionable is when the "we poster" doesn't use their real name or business name,but hide behind some pseudonym.
I never believe a word of anyone posting behind bullshit pseudonyms.
Their opinion is not valid to me.
@@YouCantSawSawdust I have a weak association with gapless rings...now.
@@jcnewbee8124 JC. I've used gapless rings one time after doing more than 400 engines. Mostly Fords. And the first time I used these rings, I have an oil burning, plug fouling engine. Really pisses me of. Going back to a conventional ring. Never had problems with them.
do the thin rings last?
Yes. In fact, we typically see a reduction in cylinder bore wear with thinner piston rings.
Combine total seal piston rings with a vacuum pump and you’ll have a massive gain.
Absolutely!
What rings would you recommend for a 2007 5.3 with stock pistons? Staying NA.
For max performance, go with a Gas Ported ring set. Summit Racing has the GPX line of gas ported rings, which provide excellent performance for the dollar.
Dam I learn SSSSOOOOOO much from you crazy guys! Keep it up!
PS: have y'all ever done a gapless oil ring setup?
Thanks!
Nope. It is ok to have a gap on the oil rings, in fact it can be something modified specifically for high vacuum, dry sump systems. We will be doing a video about that in the future.
Have you tried Oil Extreme Concentrate in your Oil or DV's Oil Extreme Break in Lube?
We don’t recommend ever using an additive.
@@TotalSeal Ive had absolutely fantastic results with Oil Extreme..... I've had some engine builders have bother with poor ring seal.
Oil Extreme has fixed the issue every time.
Hope to see you at the Autosport Show in January.
Did he say some people don't have dynos as if its not almost everyone that doesn't have a dyno
How thin of rings could you run on a turbo diesel pulling tractor running 73 psi boost?
1.5mm
@@TotalSeal thanks for the reply. I believe we are running 1/16 total seal rings now and they work awesome. Here is a video of the tractor.
ua-cam.com/video/IYA2UwRk1VI/v-deo.html
It would still seem to me, that a person still needs the cylinders honed properly. To actually get every little bit of HP possible. Especially as I've been hearing Lake Jr talk about with regards to those steal rings.
You are right, there is no substitute for a properly honed cylinder.
@@TotalSeal Yes, I always thought it was important. Of course, I am seeing with these and the Stapleton videos, that it is even essential. Now I will say, I am not sure that any machine shop I've ever been to had a Rottler hone. But if they did, I would want my blocks honed with one of their honing machines.
@@TheCrewChief374 No doubt! That new Rottler HX85 is amazing!
All about friction and ring seal at the same
What kind of oil are you using?
We use BR40 for break-in and the baseline runs.
what's the difference in life expectancy with thinner rings.
Longer with thinner rings
The problem with the gas ported rings in drag cars is they don’t run for 30 mins before a pass they run max 3 minutes the rings do not have a chance to make that compete seal thus you end up with massive blow by because pro-line runs your rings and there motors are horrid with blow by
We will have to agree to disagree on that one. A massive blow-by problem is the result of the combination of piston, ring, cylinder bore geometry and surface finish. It is not just one part.
I can't find a flat top piston for less than 950 with 1mm 1mm 2mm rings.
See what you can find with .043, .043, 3.0 mm grooves. That’s the next best option.
I never did find part 2 of this.
It is the Honing for Horsepower video
Why don't you leave the overlay up there so we can study it?
You should be able pause the video and check it out.
Hoping for 1/16 to gapless top.
Thinner is better!
Great content, but OMG you need editing software that clearly shows you what the audio is doing. First part of the video is left only, then stereo, then right only..
Thanks for the feedback. We’ve been looking to upgrade our editing software to Adobe Premier Pro.
The real shame about all the effort that went into this comparison is the fact that you can run an engine on the dyno,take a measurement,pull the engine down,make NO CHANGES,reassemble it and take another measurement,and the result will be different.
It's a fact.
On this dyno, that difference is less than 2 HP. That’s a fact. We’ve done it dozens of times over 10 years.
What the hell ...how much free free is the gapless
wasn't be better to create one cylinder (with the same piston) engine? For testing/dyno purpose only. cheaper to test (because one cylinder) faster to rebuild etc. But unfortunately you would lose years of data to direct compare.
maybe create one and testing everything on both for some time for build solid baseline for new platform.
Metric is better than SAE. Got it.
Can the man have his own mic. Not much to ask. All of that machinery and no extra mic
Both guys have lapel mic’s, but they are engine guys not pro video guys. We will pass along the feedback.
When will the industry stop dinking around with individual piston rings? Why not coat the entire outside of the piston with an oil retaining surface. Maybe the pin bores too. When the engine combustion seal goes away, discard the piston and install a new one. May need to resurface the bore or just toss the sleeve assembly into the dumpster with the piston. I'm thinking this idea just became "Public Domain"!
Most modern cars have pistons that have performance coatings on them. So do many rebuilder grade pistons. Also, although pin bores are not coated, extreme applications often have an option pistons pin with DLC performance coating.
This is very scientific but not very realistic.
There's no comparison to real world running and use after several thousand miles. How do these last long term?
Actually, the rate of wear during engine break-in is much higher than at any other time in an engine's life, so we can compare wear during break-in to establish longer term wear trends. We also do real world, long term engine tests as well. We have over 15,000 miles in a street car on gas ported 1.0mm rings.
@@TotalSeal did you mean 150,000 miles?
@@gbsgarage no, it is closer to 20k miles now. We have the gas ported rings in a street engine for R&D purposes. It should also be pointed out that most OEM’s now use 1.0mm or 1.2mm rings in their production engines today.
@@TotalSeal I'm currently blueprinting an engine that runs two ring pistons with a .8mm Riken compression ring.
Plz tell me u hav socks on
The audio is just awful.