That's my hometown and J.D. Vance's book accurately describes my experience growing up there. Growing up seeing the same situations Vance describes. I left Middletown after my military service and college. I still love that town but find myself crying on occasion when I return for the increasing number of funerals and fewer and fewer weddings. I too owe everything I have to those that touched my life there as a child.
I'm probably not the kind of person one would expect to read this book. I'm like the polar opposite of J.D. Vance. I'm a black, Muslim female from an upper-middle class family who has pretty much never had any personal experience with the lives of hillbillies. But a friend of mine said he read this and he recommended it to me. I must say, this is seriously one of the best book I've read in a while. It really opened my eyes to a side of America that I was very ignorant to. It made me think, and it honestly changed my perspective on a lot of things.
I grew up in the town right next to his. I am now in college on full academic scholarship and attending medical school next year. His call to action at the end, to accept that it will be harder for us than it is for someone else, is a message I have heard before and I cannot explain how true it is. I watched the learned helplessness he described, was surrounded by it, even felt it myself at times. I take great pride in his accurate characterization of our hometown, revealing the desperation felt by the entire region. Also, its MiddleTOWN, not MiddleTON. That drove me insane
Tom Daley, you are absolutely correct RE the pronunciation of Middletown. I grew up right next doro in Germantown, Ohio, 7 miles north of Middletown, and we never said anything but TOWN for either place. Our town and township, only 2000 people in town when I was a kid, was a strange mixture of Pennsylvania Dutch farmers but also many who worked in Dayton or the great Armco steelmill in Middletown. They were descendants who'd begun settling there in 1804, earlier than Middletown. Our school had an interesting mixture with many Hillbillies, too, though we were never supposed to say that ... That group often went back to KY over the weekend to share the good wages they got at Armco with their poor relatives in KY. Unfortunately, Armco no longer exists - just like so many of the great manufacturing operations that made a place like Dayton one of the richest place in the US for any middle class or lower middle class family to earn a lot of money. Dayton is now nothing like it was when I was a kid and my dad worked for a GM plant in Dayton.
Reading the book now. There's a story on page 149 in the paperback where Vance is "unusually upset" that he cannot spend time with his nieces and nephews, and tells Mamaw about it. Instead of telling him to "quit [his] damn whining," she empathizes, but reminds him that making something of his future and getting educated will give him the sort of security that will enable him to have quiet weekends at home with family. "She showed me what was possible... and made sure I knew how to get there." It's only halfway through, but somehow, it seems like that's the sentence that his book hinges upon
From J.D Vance's book "Hillbilly Elegy" Chapter 8...for a long time, much of my failing school district qualified for vouchers - but it was striking that in an entire discussion about why poor kids struggled in school, the emphasis rested entirely on public institutions. As a teacher at my old high school told me recently, "They want us to be shepherds to these kids. But no one wants to talk about the facts that many are raised by wolves" ....
OMG, finally, someone told the truth about the failure of the welfare programs, and the alternative to create work based systems. Don't give them money; instead, create jobs and work, that would empower them to build their lives and return their sense of dignity!
Most of us actually already know that. Very few of us say things like "all Trump voters are racists" (or sexist, or war-hungry or whatever other label is being discussed at the time.) The problem is that those who AREN'T (because there is a significant number who are) don't look at those attitudes and see a problem. They are willing to say things like "Sure, if he promises a few tax breaks or something, I'm okay with voting for a racist." or "As long as he makes unachievably promises about saving dead industries, I'm okay with casting my vote for an admitted sexual predator." Let's use the climate change example for a second: I'm sure not everyone who voted for Trump is a climate change denier, but he is. He has appointed heads of organizations like the EPA who are. Important projects are being torn down, climate data is being deleted, and valuable time that could be used addressing the problem is being wasted pretending it doesn't exist... so if someone tells me "It's not my problem, I don't deny climate change" my response, as it is with the racism, the sexism, the xenophobia, etc. is "It you help it happen, it doesn't much matter if you disagree." Someone who doesn't speak up, and someone who votes for someone who stands for and encourages certain problems, is still a part of that problem, no matter what their personal feelings about it are.
Both my Mamaws were woman of dignity, no swearing, and boy, could they serve up a great meal. Sorry, your Scots-Irish family was so dysfunctional, Mr Vance. You're playing into a stereotype. Here's largely how the false hillbilly stereotype emerged; See link below; www.abbevilleinstitute.org/blog/the-invention-of-the-appalachian-hillbilly/ And according to Fischer's "Albion Seed", there were more Scots-Irish Presidents than from any other group.
But begs the question - how can left elites show empathy for a caste of people who have no empathy for non-whites? Another culprit could easily conservative elites like Hoover who exploit poor whites solely for votes, mainly to stack courts.
This is a great interview. Eye-opening for this Liberal Canadian. However, as a neighbor to the north, the political climate in America effects us greatly and in many ways, the cultural group he speaks of also exists in Canada. I have read some of the comments and I will give my two scents to the debate. As a whole, Americans and Canadians alike, have become so individualistic. For centuries, people did not exist purely within the 'nuclear family'. As much as 1950 America or Canada is vindicated as a time of hard work and family values - it no longer is the reality for many people. Divorce rate remains high, families are very different and often dysfunctional. My generation continues to go it alone at the great expense of our communities and children. Of course, I do believe that the state plays an integral role in creating programs to assist people in need - however, I think it is time for people as a whole to look to the benefits of multigenerational relationships, community programs, churches, schools, etc - as a meeting point to discuss the real challenges we face and listen to the stories of people like JD Vance to reflect on why he was successful despite multiple barriers and why so many are not. Lastly, I think there is so much value in what JD Vance stated about the importance of giving back - whether it be your time, money or simply to listen to gain greater insight into a culture that is deteriorating.
J.D. Vance's book is at times hilarious and then stinging in its honesty. He spares none of his kin a honest recounting of their vices and faults but manages to also preserve a lovely magnanimity to them. His story isn't just the crisis of the Scotch-Irish of the rural east. It can also be seen as a meditation on the state of American culture and institutions.
I am a woman with political consciousness, and I am impressed by a hilly vice president who wants to be part of the American history. I applaud you Sir, you are a blessing sent by God
Hillbilly Elegy - A brilliant read that speaks for the largely lost and forgotten Scots-Irish culture in Australia / New Zealand. Whilst this culture has been submerged by assimilation into a generic antipodean culture (as opposed to the distinctive character of its Appalachian incarnation - usually only surfacing through the stage image of rock singers like Bon Scott, Jimmy Barnes and Brian Johnson or through apotheosised ‘convict culture’ in Australia) there is much about your people’s sensibilities that deeply resonates in the antipodean identity, albeit largely unrecognised. This was noted by a fellow cultural countryman of yours (Joe Bageant) during his tours of Australia. J.D. Vance, I’m certain you would recognise the spirit of your own people’s aspirations downunder.
I read Vance's book for my Appalachian History class. Although Middletown, OH is NOT Southern, it has essentially become an enclave of eastern Kentucky (which is both Southern and Appalachian; I consider them two distinct but often intertwined regions of the United States.) The big question is whether or not he is a hillbilly. I believe based on his family, he was. This book is trying to condemn how the "white trash" or "hillbilly" culture makes people feel victimized and helpless. It's both raw, gripping, depressing (especially through the second half, which was a bit of a slog for me), but ultimately hopeful in nature. Many people condemn the "boostraps" mentality he supposedly peddles in this book, but Vance never argues in favor of completely scrapping the social safety net. (If he did, he would be a libertarian.) Sometimes, the system was necessary to help him achieve his dreams. But the difference is he didn't feel trapped in a cycle of poverty - he used what was around him, got help from his grandmother (who has such a foul mouth she'd make Martin Scorsese blush), and found his own version of the American dream. That to me is a powerful message: as Theodore Roosevely famously said, "Do what you can with what you've got, where you are."
My background is similar to JD's but without an Ivy league degree. My parents were both from rural KY (Casey Co in south KY, Harlan Co in east KY) and moved to SW Ohio. My dad was total garbage: wife beater, wouldn't hold down jobs, constantly cheating on mom (yet would accuse her of same). When I was 1 he shot his head off in a drunken argument with one of his girlfriends. The bed frame I used growing up had been used by my older brother. One day dad and brother got into a shootout and dad shot into the bedroom. Mom patched the headboard with wood putty. They named it the Alamo Bed. Thankfully my mom was hardworking, calm, and good with money. Her family was part of a very strict Christian sect but it protected me from drugs, alcoholism, and revolving door of men that JD experienced. Somehow 4 of the 5 kids my parents had turned out better than the average American in terms of education (all 4 of us graduated college) and income.
As a finnish person I'm so hyped for this guy to be vice president of the USA! Everytime I listen to him speak i'm thoroughly impressed by the level of insight he has on aspects of american life.
That "Kevin" clearly does not grasp concept of strong families, such as those in Appalachia, the South, & Midwest. Sometimes u just cannot serve urself & get up and go. Family ties & obligations matter to these ppl.
Book "Albion's Seed" has excellent description of character traits and folkways of Scotch-Irish, and considers their origins in Northern Ireland and area around Irish Sea. Highly recommended and eye-opening book.
I and the author's background is somewhat similar. Thankfully I was adopted at two months. However the family I adopted into were also of Scots/Irish/English decent. I'm sure that Granite City Steel employees are now rejoicing over Trump's election. It had to shut down operations a few months ago. My Grandfather retired from there after 40 years and many of my uncles as well as my father either worked there or one of the other two major steel mills that have since closed their gates. The U.S. Navy was my out.
An interview for which I am darn glad I didn't miss out on but almost clicked off of! At about the 25:00 minute mark concerning the topic of government and food stamps? I grew up with a mother who was a social worker in the 1970s. She had this thing about creating an idea of teaching the people who were on food stamps to become aware of what a budget can do for a family unit. To be fully aware of any and all spending habits while keeping their focus on getting a job while she looked for employment for them. She worked with all people in the community as well as people from the southern states migrating northward following the picking season and hence, she encouraged those wanting to settle in the north to have a knowing of a budget first, above all else, so that they didn't fall into an entrapment of living off of food stamps and thinking that was all there was to their lives. I am well aware of her directing any immigrants from Mexico to focus on becoming naturalized citizens because she would recruit me to teach them how to read in English although I couldn't speak Spanish but could understand it when I was sixteen. My mother's co-workers at the Welfare Department didn't approve of my mother teaching the people to become self-sufficient, for they felt she went beyond her duties as a social worker in that she cared. My mother wasn't just about pushing the pen and providing government resources for people in need. She was about teaching the people they could do better in their lives by their own recognition of welfare being a stepping stone for them to get their footing in a new community, or likewise, in their own community, and work their way into one day owning their own homes via their concept taught them of living month to month based on what a budget would do for them in achieving the success they sought for themselves and the future of their families. My mother passed away in 2004. Every once in a while I will meet up with the older families within the surrounding communities I once knew who we'd once housed in our basement temporarily until my mom could find resources for them. I recognize them only in passing but I recognize their history. All people are capable of doing well when given not only an opportunity but the thought of opportunity that comes from within the individual should a seed be planted that may have never been there before. As a teen, I thought of my mother as King-Kong having to deal with social workers in the office who were mere pen pushers. If people seeking resources didn't ask the right questions when seeking help, the social workers wouldn't offer anything else but to stare at the people with blank-eyed looks. My mother would often show up with the people standing as an advocate for them at same time reminding those at the office of Welfare that they had those jobs because we the people were paying their salaries and they better straighten up and do their jobs! My mother also worked with alcohol and drug abuse with teens teaching them how to get out of their own self-entrapment, make do with what they had in their lives at the time, teach them about the concept of budget, living within their means while keeping their focus on making a better life for themselves whether entering community college, getting their GED, or finding employment that best suited them. What I learned most from my mother is she didn't treat the people as just a case number. Amen :) Hillbilly Elegy; perhaps why the basket of deplorables and their response to President Trump. In my experience concerning my mother, she sought solutions and which isn't the mindset of state employees but is the mindset of our most spectacular president I can relate to closely with how my mother thought, taught and directed others to a better means of life and living life! :) As with all deplorables, should President Trump's re-election as fraudulent as it's been found, we the people would find ourselves being stared back with blank-eyed stares by state employees, should the likes of a Biden/Harris administration come back into power. MAGA has always been about bringing the power back to the people. The underdog has understood what President Trump has been relaying to the people same as what my mother's efforts to the people were all about. In our basement, when both my parents would welcome a family in need of temporary housing, we had a cellar, a washer and dryer, a shower and a room to sleep in. Later, it had a pool table. All in all, it provided relief for people seeking temporary housing as well as family-style living with us all welcoming them. That was in 1970 when people could still afford to help others. Since then, with every decade since then, a Technocratic Era has made it ever harder for families like us to extend a helping hand. This interview brought forth in me memories of my mother not trying but making a difference in any and all surrounding communities in which families would settle into. My origins are not of Hillbillies in a new community but of Mexican origins escaping the loss of jobs and drug infiltration in Southern Texas.
BTW, the Scotch-Irish were not Highlanders. Most of the Scots who went to Ulster, and then to America, were from the Lowlands, particularly around Glasgow.
For anyone who found this enlightening, I would urge you to watch Steve Bannon's 2018 address to the Oxford Union. He mentions J. D. Vance and elaborates on some of the economic issues which hit the American working class so hard, and underlay the election of Trump.
Peter Robinson: I have a BFA & MFA in Theatre Arts and had a special effects company in LA. I have a MS in oriental medicine and today live in northern California. By all labels I am suppose to be a liberal. I voted for Trump. I am Scotch-English-Scandinavian and a direct descendent of Miles Standish of Plymouth Colony. One of my great-grandfathers was a General in the Revolutionary War (colonist) and another was a Colonel in the Civil War (north). My parents were born and raised in New Hampshire and moved to Georgia in 1954 when my father served in the US Army (Korea). I was raised in Northern Georgia and love Appalachian culture...so too did my former wife who was raised in LA. Scot-American are people of humanity! They live in their hearts and not arrogant intellect.
Great quote at the end of this interview: "We hillbillies must wake the hell up." Well, they certainly did. Trump won the election November 8 largely due to the forgotten working middle-class, so eloquently described in Vance's book. This interview took place two weeks before the election, but it wonderfully described, in very real terms, the conditions which determined Trump's enormous appeal and eventual triumph. Vance wrote the book as a personal memoir, but it's so much more than that. It's really the memoir of millions of Americans today who are tired of being discounted, tired of being left off. Hats off to J.D. Vance for bringing these folks out of the shadows.
PurpleWarlock Probably not too much. Slight change of topic: If you have the time and are into podcasts, then please check out my podcast - Thinking It Through with Jerome Danner - t.co
I have done a lot of genealogy for myself and others and I disagree with the common dialogue on Appalachian Scots Irish "moving there because it looked like home". I've found White Appalachians to be a mix of Virginia tidewater English, Scots Irish, Scottish, Welsh, Irish, and Germans. I think most of us have Scots Irish but it's not near a majority of our ancestry. I think it's more about the isolating geography of Appalachia than any carryover culture from Europe. All of rural Kentucky has a similar heritage but only Eastern Kentucky had feuding until the 1920s. Other coal fields in the USA have declines in jobs but only Appalachia has an epidemic of drug overdosing.
In the old days you could move to Detroit with only an 8th grade education & find a job that paid a good wage. Those jobs are gone & not every one could adapt. Now, in order to get a good wage, you have to have a degree from Harvard or MIT. Learn to code???
Just read that the German publisher of Hillbilly Elegy, for whom it was a huge bestseller when it first came out, just terminated the book contract due to political reasons.
All this head scratchin' over why the heck these formerly productive communities could now find themselves drowning in poverty and dependence on food stamps? Could it be they've just lost their gumption? Maybe. Maybe that and the fact that our world is now ruled by the "special" interests of a corporate state? Hmmm... Instead of government subsidies, why not have a living wage? No work? There's plenty of entry level work that could be had if we also started addressing this nation's crumbling infrastructure. Thing is roads, bridges and schools are pretty low on the priority list for Goldman Sachs and their cronies.
Being from Ohio Myself. Our accent is No accent! We enunciate, We pause when the communication needs a amount of time to sink in. We don't studder or clamour for words. Such as aaah or uummm. I clearly can tell from the first interactions wwith a person if They are From Ohio and more than Not from which part of Ohio they are from. Living in Florida Now I can point out those whom have came here from My home State! For We Are Not Yankees or Northerners! We Are Buckeyes!! Ps. Snowbirds stay home Florida does Not need ur nondriving asses down here.
Peter Robinson: I am Scot-English-Scandinavian and today's Scot-Irish can't apply their strength to just 'get up and do something' because of the current economic climate i.e. small business can't capital. Even if they return to their roots of farming, scrap together monies - how do they compete with global-BigAg? Further Peter - there is deep shame in the culture. White Scot-Irish have been blamed for every other culture's oppression in the USA. Every group gets to point to the 'white man' and say "Because of them I don't have an opportunity'. I say "Where is the Federal program for 'white, working, males'?
I am impressed with his self awareness in the respect that he understands that culture habits follows individuals and groups geography, in particular his FAMILY'S move from Jackson to Middletown. What doesn't impress me, is his claim to be a 'hillbilly' when in fact, his family escaped the area 2 generations before him. So much as he may think he's from Jackson, he's not. He grew up in a shelf up from EKY. Middletown and Ohio in general have much much more opportunities than Jackson. Middletown is no jewel by no means but it's a leg up. If he were to actually grow up in Jackson, he would not be sitting in posh office in San Fran. He would be lucky to be working for the state or at best small town lawyer. True 'hillbilies' have obstacles such as a deficient education system, not just in the formal sense but as a community knowledge base as a whole. Not to mention the social habits that are ingrain in you by living in a remote area and then add a heavy southern accent that when outsiders hear it, one is immediately dismissed as dumb and useless by any person outside of the area. And more importantly the social network that have being raised in such an area is limited in that, most of the ppl you know and have known are not of good character, in good social standing professionally or personal and most are criminals or can not function outside the area.
There is a difference between a hillbilly who can functionally prosper in an urbane environment, which characterizes J.D.Vance IMO, and an #urbanbumpkin who appears to be near the top of the scrum of dogs eating dogs in an urbane environment. [Although etymologically connected, there is a distinction between urban and urbane implied in my comment. Draw your own conclusion about that distinction.] Good interview, as usual, Peter.
When ever I'm asked who I think an "American" is, I think of Hillbillies. That mix of Irish>Scots>English folks who came to this country , like everybody else, looking for a better way. For most of my life I hv never really made any distinction between the above mentioned groups. For most of us non-white folks, this Trilogy is basically made up of the same kind of folks. Hard workers, fighters, non cohesiveness in the home, racists, exclusivity, exceptionalism's among their own kind, Protestants, drinkers, frugality honored in extreme outlooks, either very clean and tidy or dirty unruly with disregard to neighbors or society. Wife beaters, child beaters.Andrew Jackson, represents the best and worst of these folks and he supported slavery and the removal of the Native to Oklahoma with disastrous results. Empathy was not evident in that man. However he was good with money, as most Scots are, by limiting the existence of a central bank and with stern resolution, he succeeded. The takeaway of this video is really a more deeper understanding of how different we "Americans" really are, but I think it comes down to a few social, political and religious details that hv formed many people in different ways such as : A Papist or not? A Kingdom or a Republic? A farmer/laborer or an academic? Thomas Jefferson was well aware of the difference between a life lived on ones farm and anything else. I think that Hillbillies are going to need to change or die off. It's a natural part of the human cycle. Only the ones that adapt can stay in the game.
Anyone who manages to fight his way out of a cultural swamp to a better life should not have to feel any guilt with respect to those who failed or didn't try to better themselves. We are only responsible for ourselves.
Robinson interrupts too much. It's a bad habit of his. And he also wanders too much into free association when he asks a question. These interviews would be much more interesting if he could discipline himself.
Some comments: 1) Difference wrt north UK vs south... The Romans never made it that far north in any deep way. 2) S/I keep heading west leading the westward push... Some say to stay ahead of the lawyers :-)
@33:00 "the polls show Donald Trump is loosing" LMAO. My family is from Manchester Kentucky and my dad only went to the 6th grade and he came to exactly the same conclusions that JD did. Hillbillies need to WORK for a living instead of smoking weed and waiting for their welfare check. You don't need a Yale law degree to figure that out.
First of all- dont address Appalachia as "The dysfunctional culture of Appalachia' - I am from Appalachia and I find this completely offensive- how would you like it if I introduced you as Mr. Blahblah from the dysfunctional culture of suburbia or the dysfunctional culture of the upper class. This is offensive.
Much love to the guest and the program. Exactly, Capitalism seems to have no use for fact, in turn the utter lack of repair of social programs they frankly should not be into. Unless its all part of a Zeitgeist sustainability, currently unacheivable when committing Genocide all over the world. Peace and love to all priceless life.
As much as I admire J.D. Vance's candid and also compassionate view on white working-class Americans, I am convinced he misses the root cause for their problems. It is the combination of the growing momentum of globalization and the refusal of Americans in general to give up the notion that it is entirely up to individuals (and not society at large) to make it in life. So you need a solid involvement of government - which most American conservatives seemingly believe is the source of all evil - but NOT to provide welfare but to ensure good education for ALL. Globalization means that firms can easily ignore the poor, low-educated people in their home countries for any low-qualification jobs they need to fill, instead employing the poor, low-educated people in emerging countries at a fraction of the cost. The American promise that you can always make it in life if you just work hard enough is gone for good, and American presidents and Congress have failed working-class people in not telling them this truth AND seriously doing something about it. Donald Trump will fail them miserably as well, as he is merely pandering to the false narrative of the white working-class poor that it's the fault of other groups - be it immigrants or the elites. No, this is structural, namely the American tendency to place ALL responsibility on the individual instead of the institutions and the rules governing US society.
say App-a-lay-cha one more damn time!!! it is App-a-latch-a...period! Don't care how "you say it where you're from" you are incorrect...Care to say App-a-lay-chin Trail, have at it, it was designed and promoted by North Easterners who MISPRONOUNCED it
He didn't really just say that liberals are less likely than conservatives to think sociologically...did he? He certainly raises some valid points but I thought he was way off the mark there.
Vance, you lost me when you said your a conservative. I grew up in a hillbilly family and am a democrat. I agree with the other guy, get a U-haul and get out.
That's my hometown and J.D. Vance's book accurately describes my experience growing up there. Growing up seeing the same situations Vance describes. I left Middletown after my military service and college. I still love that town but find myself crying on occasion when I return for the increasing number of funerals and fewer and fewer weddings. I too owe everything I have to those that touched my life there as a child.
He can be a great VP!
I'm probably not the kind of person one would expect to read this book. I'm like the polar opposite of J.D. Vance. I'm a black, Muslim female from an upper-middle class family who has pretty much never had any personal experience with the lives of hillbillies. But a friend of mine said he read this and he recommended it to me. I must say, this is seriously one of the best book I've read in a while. It really opened my eyes to a side of America that I was very ignorant to. It made me think, and it honestly changed my perspective on a lot of things.
I grew up in the town right next to his. I am now in college on full academic scholarship and attending medical school next year. His call to action at the end, to accept that it will be harder for us than it is for someone else, is a message I have heard before and I cannot explain how true it is. I watched the learned helplessness he described, was surrounded by it, even felt it myself at times. I take great pride in his accurate characterization of our hometown, revealing the desperation felt by the entire region. Also, its MiddleTOWN, not MiddleTON. That drove me insane
Tom Daley, you are absolutely correct RE the pronunciation of Middletown. I grew up right next doro in Germantown, Ohio, 7 miles north of Middletown, and we never said anything but TOWN for either place. Our town and township, only 2000 people in town when I was a kid, was a strange mixture of Pennsylvania Dutch farmers but also many who worked in Dayton or the great Armco steelmill in Middletown. They were descendants who'd begun settling there in 1804, earlier than Middletown. Our school had an interesting mixture with many Hillbillies, too, though we were never supposed to say that ... That group often went back to KY over the weekend to share the good wages they got at Armco with their poor relatives in KY. Unfortunately, Armco no longer exists - just like so many of the great manufacturing operations that made a place like Dayton one of the richest place in the US for any middle class or lower middle class family to earn a lot of money. Dayton is now nothing like it was when I was a kid and my dad worked for a GM plant in Dayton.
Reading the book now. There's a story on page 149 in the paperback where Vance is "unusually upset" that he cannot spend time with his nieces and nephews, and tells Mamaw about it. Instead of telling him to "quit [his] damn whining," she empathizes, but reminds him that making something of his future and getting educated will give him the sort of security that will enable him to have quiet weekends at home with family. "She showed me what was possible... and made sure I knew how to get there." It's only halfway through, but somehow, it seems like that's the sentence that his book hinges upon
From J.D Vance's book "Hillbilly Elegy" Chapter 8...for a long time, much of my failing school district qualified for vouchers - but it was striking that in an entire discussion about why poor kids struggled in school, the emphasis rested entirely on public institutions. As a teacher at my old high school told me recently, "They want us to be shepherds to these kids. But no one wants to talk about the facts that many are raised by wolves" ....
OMG, finally, someone told the truth about the failure of the welfare programs, and the alternative to create work based systems. Don't give them money; instead, create jobs and work, that would empower them to build their lives and return their sense of dignity!
I enjoyed that book more than any book I've read in many years. Food for thought on an epic scale.
What he explains at 38:13 is so important and so many people are ignorant to this reality! Good interview, thanks.
Most of us actually already know that. Very few of us say things like "all Trump voters are racists" (or sexist, or war-hungry or whatever other label is being discussed at the time.) The problem is that those who AREN'T (because there is a significant number who are) don't look at those attitudes and see a problem. They are willing to say things like "Sure, if he promises a few tax breaks or something, I'm okay with voting for a racist." or "As long as he makes unachievably promises about saving dead industries, I'm okay with casting my vote for an admitted sexual predator."
Let's use the climate change example for a second: I'm sure not everyone who voted for Trump is a climate change denier, but he is. He has appointed heads of organizations like the EPA who are. Important projects are being torn down, climate data is being deleted, and valuable time that could be used addressing the problem is being wasted pretending it doesn't exist... so if someone tells me "It's not my problem, I don't deny climate change" my response, as it is with the racism, the sexism, the xenophobia, etc. is "It you help it happen, it doesn't much matter if you disagree."
Someone who doesn't speak up, and someone who votes for someone who stands for and encourages certain problems, is still a part of that problem, no matter what their personal feelings about it are.
Both my Mamaws were woman of dignity, no swearing, and boy, could they serve up a great meal. Sorry, your Scots-Irish family was so dysfunctional, Mr Vance. You're playing into a stereotype. Here's largely how the false hillbilly stereotype emerged; See link below;
www.abbevilleinstitute.org/blog/the-invention-of-the-appalachian-hillbilly/
And according to Fischer's "Albion Seed", there were more Scots-Irish Presidents than from any other group.
But begs the question - how can left elites show empathy for a caste of people who have no empathy for non-whites? Another culprit could easily conservative elites like Hoover who exploit poor whites solely for votes, mainly to stack courts.
This is a great interview. Eye-opening for this Liberal Canadian. However, as a neighbor to the north, the political climate in America effects us greatly and in many ways, the cultural group he speaks of also exists in Canada. I have read some of the comments and I will give my two scents to the debate. As a whole, Americans and Canadians alike, have become so individualistic. For centuries, people did not exist purely within the 'nuclear family'. As much as 1950 America or Canada is vindicated as a time of hard work and family values - it no longer is the reality for many people. Divorce rate remains high, families are very different and often dysfunctional. My generation continues to go it alone at the great expense of our communities and children. Of course, I do believe that the state plays an integral role in creating programs to assist people in need - however, I think it is time for people as a whole to look to the benefits of multigenerational relationships, community programs, churches, schools, etc - as a meeting point to discuss the real challenges we face and listen to the stories of people like JD Vance to reflect on why he was successful despite multiple barriers and why so many are not. Lastly, I think there is so much value in what JD Vance stated about the importance of giving back - whether it be your time, money or simply to listen to gain greater insight into a culture that is deteriorating.
J.D. Vance's book is at times hilarious and then stinging in its honesty. He spares none of his kin a honest recounting of their vices and faults but manages to also preserve a lovely magnanimity to them. His story isn't just the crisis of the Scotch-Irish of the rural east. It can also be seen as a meditation on the state of American culture and institutions.
I am a woman with political consciousness, and I am impressed by a hilly vice president who wants to be part of the American history. I applaud you Sir, you are a blessing sent by God
Hillbilly Elegy - A brilliant read that speaks for the largely lost and forgotten Scots-Irish culture in Australia / New Zealand. Whilst this culture has been submerged by assimilation into a generic antipodean culture (as opposed to the distinctive character of its Appalachian incarnation - usually only surfacing through the stage image of rock singers like Bon Scott, Jimmy Barnes and Brian Johnson or through apotheosised ‘convict culture’ in Australia) there is much about your people’s sensibilities that deeply resonates in the antipodean identity, albeit largely unrecognised. This was noted by a fellow cultural countryman of yours (Joe Bageant) during his tours of Australia.
J.D. Vance, I’m certain you would recognise the spirit of your own people’s aspirations downunder.
J.D. Vance is a great personality. I can't wait to read his book!
Very glad to see this interview; I believe there couldn't be a better time to listen to Vance. A contemplative Veteran's Day to all.
I read Vance's book for my Appalachian History class. Although Middletown, OH is NOT Southern, it has essentially become an enclave of eastern Kentucky (which is both Southern and Appalachian; I consider them two distinct but often intertwined regions of the United States.)
The big question is whether or not he is a hillbilly. I believe based on his family, he was. This book is trying to condemn how the "white trash" or "hillbilly" culture makes people feel victimized and helpless. It's both raw, gripping, depressing (especially through the second half, which was a bit of a slog for me), but ultimately hopeful in nature.
Many people condemn the "boostraps" mentality he supposedly peddles in this book, but Vance never argues in favor of completely scrapping the social safety net. (If he did, he would be a libertarian.) Sometimes, the system was necessary to help him achieve his dreams. But the difference is he didn't feel trapped in a cycle of poverty - he used what was around him, got help from his grandmother (who has such a foul mouth she'd make Martin Scorsese blush), and found his own version of the American dream. That to me is a powerful message: as Theodore Roosevely famously said, "Do what you can with what you've got, where you are."
IThank God we still have some honest Conservative intellectuals who are speaking out 🇺🇸
My background is similar to JD's but without an Ivy league degree. My parents were both from rural KY (Casey Co in south KY, Harlan Co in east KY) and moved to SW Ohio. My dad was total garbage: wife beater, wouldn't hold down jobs, constantly cheating on mom (yet would accuse her of same). When I was 1 he shot his head off in a drunken argument with one of his girlfriends. The bed frame I used growing up had been used by my older brother. One day dad and brother got into a shootout and dad shot into the bedroom. Mom patched the headboard with wood putty. They named it the Alamo Bed. Thankfully my mom was hardworking, calm, and good with money. Her family was part of a very strict Christian sect but it protected me from drugs, alcoholism, and revolving door of men that JD experienced. Somehow 4 of the 5 kids my parents had turned out better than the average American in terms of education (all 4 of us graduated college) and income.
Jeffrey M i like the story. It shows that it is easy to leave the rough life if one wants to
Great story. Some of us didnt rise out of that life with such honor and grace.
As a finnish person I'm so hyped for this guy to be vice president of the USA! Everytime I listen to him speak i'm thoroughly impressed by the level of insight he has on aspects of american life.
That "Kevin" clearly does not grasp concept of strong families, such as those in Appalachia, the South, & Midwest. Sometimes u just cannot serve urself & get up and go. Family ties & obligations matter to these ppl.
Thank you Peter Robinson and BLESS you, J.D. Vance. Hoover Institution and USMC are the BEST!
Book "Albion's Seed" has excellent description of character traits and folkways of Scotch-Irish, and considers their origins in Northern Ireland and area around Irish Sea. Highly recommended and eye-opening book.
I and the author's background is somewhat similar. Thankfully I was adopted at two months. However the family I adopted into were also of Scots/Irish/English decent. I'm sure that Granite City Steel employees are now rejoicing over Trump's election. It had to shut down operations a few months ago. My Grandfather retired from there after 40 years and many of my uncles as well as my father either worked there or one of the other two major steel mills that have since closed their gates. The U.S. Navy was my out.
An interview for which I am darn glad I didn't miss out on but almost clicked off of! At about the 25:00 minute mark concerning the topic of government and food stamps? I grew up with a mother who was a social worker in the 1970s. She had this thing about creating an idea of teaching the people who were on food stamps to become aware of what a budget can do for a family unit. To be fully aware of any and all spending habits while keeping their focus on getting a job while she looked for employment for them. She worked with all people in the community as well as people from the southern states migrating northward following the picking season and hence, she encouraged those wanting to settle in the north to have a knowing of a budget first, above all else, so that they didn't fall into an entrapment of living off of food stamps and thinking that was all there was to their lives. I am well aware of her directing any immigrants from Mexico to focus on becoming naturalized citizens because she would recruit me to teach them how to read in English although I couldn't speak Spanish but could understand it when I was sixteen. My mother's co-workers at the Welfare Department didn't approve of my mother teaching the people to become self-sufficient, for they felt she went beyond her duties as a social worker in that she cared. My mother wasn't just about pushing the pen and providing government resources for people in need. She was about teaching the people they could do better in their lives by their own recognition of welfare being a stepping stone for them to get their footing in a new community, or likewise, in their own community, and work their way into one day owning their own homes via their concept taught them of living month to month based on what a budget would do for them in achieving the success they sought for themselves and the future of their families. My mother passed away in 2004. Every once in a while I will meet up with the older families within the surrounding communities I once knew who we'd once housed in our basement temporarily until my mom could find resources for them. I recognize them only in passing but I recognize their history. All people are capable of doing well when given not only an opportunity but the thought of opportunity that comes from within the individual should a seed be planted that may have never been there before. As a teen, I thought of my mother as King-Kong having to deal with social workers in the office who were mere pen pushers. If people seeking resources didn't ask the right questions when seeking help, the social workers wouldn't offer anything else but to stare at the people with blank-eyed looks. My mother would often show up with the people standing as an advocate for them at same time reminding those at the office of Welfare that they had those jobs because we the people were paying their salaries and they better straighten up and do their jobs! My mother also worked with alcohol and drug abuse with teens teaching them how to get out of their own self-entrapment, make do with what they had in their lives at the time, teach them about the concept of budget, living within their means while keeping their focus on making a better life for themselves whether entering community college, getting their GED, or finding employment that best suited them. What I learned most from my mother is she didn't treat the people as just a case number. Amen :) Hillbilly Elegy; perhaps why the basket of deplorables and their response to President Trump. In my experience concerning my mother, she sought solutions and which isn't the mindset of state employees but is the mindset of our most spectacular president I can relate to closely with how my mother thought, taught and directed others to a better means of life and living life! :) As with all deplorables, should President Trump's re-election as fraudulent as it's been found, we the people would find ourselves being stared back with blank-eyed stares by state employees, should the likes of a Biden/Harris administration come back into power. MAGA has always been about bringing the power back to the people. The underdog has understood what President Trump has been relaying to the people same as what my mother's efforts to the people were all about. In our basement, when both my parents would welcome a family in need of temporary housing, we had a cellar, a washer and dryer, a shower and a room to sleep in. Later, it had a pool table. All in all, it provided relief for people seeking temporary housing as well as family-style living with us all welcoming them. That was in 1970 when people could still afford to help others. Since then, with every decade since then, a Technocratic Era has made it ever harder for families like us to extend a helping hand. This interview brought forth in me memories of my mother not trying but making a difference in any and all surrounding communities in which families would settle into. My origins are not of Hillbillies in a new community but of Mexican origins escaping the loss of jobs and drug infiltration in Southern Texas.
BTW, the Scotch-Irish were not Highlanders. Most of the Scots who went to Ulster, and then to America, were from the Lowlands, particularly around Glasgow.
For anyone who found this enlightening, I would urge you to watch Steve Bannon's 2018 address to the Oxford Union. He mentions J. D. Vance and elaborates on some of the economic issues which hit the American working class so hard, and underlay the election of Trump.
Peter Robinson: I have a BFA & MFA in Theatre Arts and had a special effects company in LA. I have a MS in oriental medicine and today live in northern California. By all labels I am suppose to be a liberal. I voted for Trump. I am Scotch-English-Scandinavian and a direct descendent of Miles Standish of Plymouth Colony. One of my great-grandfathers was a General in the Revolutionary War (colonist) and another was a Colonel in the Civil War (north). My parents were born and raised in New Hampshire and moved to Georgia in 1954 when my father served in the US Army (Korea). I was raised in Northern Georgia and love Appalachian culture...so too did my former wife who was raised in LA. Scot-American are people of humanity! They live in their hearts and not arrogant intellect.
I read that ，thank you for interview him, so I can know more
i loved that answer about why culture matters
Great quote at the end of this interview: "We hillbillies must wake the hell up." Well, they certainly did. Trump won the election November 8 largely due to the forgotten working middle-class, so eloquently described in Vance's book. This interview took place two weeks before the election, but it wonderfully described, in very real terms, the conditions which determined Trump's enormous appeal and eventual triumph. Vance wrote the book as a personal memoir, but it's so much more than that. It's really the memoir of millions of Americans today who are tired of being discounted, tired of being left off. Hats off to J.D. Vance for bringing these folks out of the shadows.
All the Wva Hillbillys I know hate trump
Great interview, and I look forward to watching the movie and then reading the book.
I have not read Vance's book....yet, but I enjoyed this interview! I heard that this was a good book.
I'm really interested in reading it too.
Some call Vance the White Ta-Nehisi.
PurpleWarlock Really? I didn't know that.
Not sure how people on the left feel about him tho'.
PurpleWarlock Probably not too much. Slight change of topic: If you have the time and are into podcasts, then please check out my podcast - Thinking It Through with Jerome Danner - t.co
I have done a lot of genealogy for myself and others and I disagree with the common dialogue on Appalachian Scots Irish "moving there because it looked like home". I've found White Appalachians to be a mix of Virginia tidewater English, Scots Irish, Scottish, Welsh, Irish, and Germans. I think most of us have Scots Irish but it's not near a majority of our ancestry. I think it's more about the isolating geography of Appalachia than any carryover culture from Europe. All of rural Kentucky has a similar heritage but only Eastern Kentucky had feuding until the 1920s. Other coal fields in the USA have declines in jobs but only Appalachia has an epidemic of drug overdosing.
Second time watch this..... awesome Dialect between two incredible men
What do you mean by dialect?
In the old days you could move to Detroit with only an 8th grade education & find a job that paid a good wage. Those jobs are gone & not every one could adapt. Now, in order to get a good wage, you have to have a degree from Harvard or MIT. Learn to code???
Just read that the German publisher of Hillbilly Elegy, for whom it was a huge bestseller when it first came out, just terminated the book contract due to political reasons.
I like how they noted *recorded on Oct 27...*published Nov 11....2016...something quite momentous happened in those 2 weeks...history will show.
Once you realize they're never going to let you win, you stop trying and just give up.
This is Awesome
All this head scratchin' over why the heck these formerly productive communities could now find themselves drowning in poverty and dependence on food stamps? Could it be they've just lost their gumption? Maybe. Maybe that and the fact that our world is now ruled by the "special" interests of a corporate state? Hmmm... Instead of government subsidies, why not have a living wage? No work? There's plenty of entry level work that could be had if we also started addressing this nation's crumbling infrastructure. Thing is roads, bridges and schools are pretty low on the priority list for Goldman Sachs and their cronies.
What happened to his rural/southern accent he mentioned many times in his book? I guess Yale bred that out of him.
Being from Ohio Myself. Our accent is No accent! We enunciate, We pause when the communication needs a amount of time to sink in. We don't studder or clamour for words. Such as aaah or uummm. I clearly can tell from the first interactions wwith a person if They are From Ohio and more than Not from which part of Ohio they are from. Living in Florida Now I can point out those whom have came here from My home State! For We Are Not Yankees or Northerners! We Are Buckeyes!! Ps. Snowbirds stay home Florida does Not need ur nondriving asses down here.
Peter Robinson: I am Scot-English-Scandinavian and today's Scot-Irish can't apply their strength to just 'get up and do something' because of the current economic climate i.e. small business can't capital. Even if they return to their roots of farming, scrap together monies - how do they compete with global-BigAg? Further Peter - there is deep shame in the culture. White Scot-Irish have been blamed for every other culture's oppression in the USA. Every group gets to point to the 'white man' and say "Because of them I don't have an opportunity'. I say "Where is the Federal program for 'white, working, males'?
One of the most open minded conservatives ever
Vance for VP! 🇺🇸
His explanation for Trump is excellent. And nothing changed, so he's going to win again.
Best interviewer on the Tube!
Update JD is now a US Senator and Vice President candidate with Trump for a second term. Seven years is an eternity.
Let the man talk, for heaven's sake. The interviewer needs to say less, listen more.
Really good.
I am impressed with his self awareness in the respect that he understands that culture habits follows individuals and groups geography, in particular his FAMILY'S move from Jackson to Middletown. What doesn't impress me, is his claim to be a 'hillbilly' when in fact, his family escaped the area 2 generations before him. So much as he may think he's from Jackson, he's not. He grew up in a shelf up from EKY. Middletown and Ohio in general have much much more opportunities than Jackson. Middletown is no jewel by no means but it's a leg up. If he were to actually grow up in Jackson, he would not be sitting in posh office in San Fran. He would be lucky to be working for the state or at best small town lawyer. True 'hillbilies' have obstacles such as a deficient education system, not just in the formal sense but as a community knowledge base as a whole. Not to mention the social habits that are ingrain in you by living in a remote area and then add a heavy southern accent that when outsiders hear it, one is immediately dismissed as dumb and useless by any person outside of the area. And more importantly the social network that have being raised in such an area is limited in that, most of the ppl you know and have known are not of good character, in good social standing professionally or personal and most are criminals or can not function outside the area.
There is a difference between a hillbilly who can functionally prosper in an urbane environment, which characterizes J.D.Vance IMO, and an #urbanbumpkin who appears to be near the top of the scrum of dogs eating dogs in an urbane environment.
[Although etymologically connected, there is a distinction between urban and urbane implied in my comment. Draw your own conclusion about that distinction.]
Good interview, as usual, Peter.
Robinson is all right, but him calling Middletown "Middleton" is driving a spike through my face.
My home town is Middletown and I cringe every time someone calls it Middleton.
John, you interrupted this man far too many times.
I seen that on Netflix good show Netflix still sucks
When ever I'm asked who I think an "American" is, I think of Hillbillies. That mix of Irish>Scots>English folks who came to this country , like everybody else, looking for a better way. For most of my life I hv never really made any distinction between the above mentioned groups. For most of us non-white folks, this Trilogy is basically made up of the same kind of folks. Hard workers, fighters, non cohesiveness in the home, racists, exclusivity, exceptionalism's among their own kind, Protestants, drinkers, frugality honored in extreme outlooks, either very clean and tidy or dirty unruly with disregard to neighbors or society. Wife beaters, child beaters.Andrew Jackson, represents the best and worst of these folks and he supported slavery and the removal of the Native to Oklahoma with disastrous results. Empathy was not evident in that man. However he was good with money, as most Scots are, by limiting the existence of a central bank and with stern resolution, he succeeded. The takeaway of this video is really a more deeper understanding of how different we "Americans" really are, but I think it comes down to a few social, political and religious details that hv formed many people in different ways such as :
A Papist or not?
A Kingdom or a Republic?
A farmer/laborer or an academic?
Thomas Jefferson was well aware of the difference between a life lived on ones farm and anything else.
I think that Hillbillies are going to need to change or die off. It's a natural part of the human cycle. Only the ones that adapt can stay in the game.
27:18 "scouting companies for mithril", that was an unexpected Tolkien reference.
The root cause is, as with damn near every other problem in our society... government interference.
Anyone who manages to fight his way out of a cultural swamp to a better life should not have to feel any guilt with respect to those who failed or didn't try to better themselves. We are only responsible for ourselves.
I'm sadden that you have no empathy of the circumstances that many people face and no compassion to extend. Heartlessness IS what divides humanity.
Robinson interrupts too much. It's a bad habit of his. And he also wanders too much into free association when he asks a question. These interviews would be much more interesting if he could discipline himself.
I love how the interviewer says "Middletown".This place is a dump but the way he says it makes it sound so fancy lol
Some comments: 1) Difference wrt north UK vs south... The Romans never made it that far north in any deep way. 2) S/I keep heading west leading the westward push... Some say to stay ahead of the lawyers :-)
Just watched the movie on Netflix, it was great!! #TrumpVance2024
What ever happened to that WSJ sponsorship?
NO SURRENDER!
The hoover institutions does not yet get that voting machines can be hooked up to the web and maniputated. Same machines that were used in Venezuela.
Great interview, but let me say it once more: MiddleTOWN.
Please stop interrupting your guest I want to hear JD not Robinson's opinions, protracted questions and bland jokes
@33:00 "the polls show Donald Trump is loosing" LMAO. My family is from Manchester Kentucky and my dad only went to the 6th grade and he came to exactly the same conclusions that JD did. Hillbillies need to WORK for a living instead of smoking weed and waiting for their welfare check. You don't need a Yale law degree to figure that out.
. 7 th chapter is saddest when grandpa...
First of all- dont address Appalachia as "The dysfunctional culture of Appalachia' - I am from Appalachia and I find this completely offensive- how would you like it if I introduced you as Mr. Blahblah from the dysfunctional culture of suburbia or the dysfunctional culture of the upper class. This is offensive.
am I the first guy to comment here after he ran with Trump?
I don't know what to think about this issue. Hmmmmm...
Mario Pierre I don't know what to think about your comment...
Hhhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Much love to the guest and the program. Exactly, Capitalism seems to have no use for fact, in turn the utter lack of repair of social programs they frankly should not be into. Unless its all part of a Zeitgeist sustainability, currently unacheivable when committing Genocide all over the world. Peace and love to all priceless life.
J.D.Vance hombre.
Trump 2020 the election is tomorrow as I'm watching this
As much as I admire J.D. Vance's candid and also compassionate view on white working-class Americans, I am convinced he misses the root cause for their problems. It is the combination of the growing momentum of globalization and the refusal of Americans in general to give up the notion that it is entirely up to individuals (and not society at large) to make it in life. So you need a solid involvement of government - which most American conservatives seemingly believe is the source of all evil - but NOT to provide welfare but to ensure good education for ALL. Globalization means that firms can easily ignore the poor, low-educated people in their home countries for any low-qualification jobs they need to fill, instead employing the poor, low-educated people in emerging countries at a fraction of the cost. The American promise that you can always make it in life if you just work hard enough is gone for good, and American presidents and Congress have failed working-class people in not telling them this truth AND seriously doing something about it. Donald Trump will fail them miserably as well, as he is merely pandering to the false narrative of the white working-class poor that it's the fault of other groups - be it immigrants or the elites. No, this is structural, namely the American tendency to place ALL responsibility on the individual instead of the institutions and the rules governing US society.
Most Americans are petrified of structural material explanations for things, always remember that.
HAHA he won!
say App-a-lay-cha one more damn time!!! it is App-a-latch-a...period! Don't care how "you say it where you're from" you are incorrect...Care to say App-a-lay-chin Trail, have at it, it was designed and promoted by North Easterners who MISPRONOUNCED it
Cohee' - not Anglo saxons. If I told you the story of the Freemasons of the old Dominion the Yan kee would not believe me.
Yikes the interviewer is so condescending. “These people” “your people” “more civilized”
Wake the hell up and realize he was right about Trump all along
He didn't really just say that liberals are less likely than conservatives to think sociologically...did he?
He certainly raises some valid points but I thought he was way off the mark there.
easy for you to say!!!!
J.D.Vance .......the take on what is going on is so far from right you are Not Even Wrong.
I'm from Oxford, Ohio and this goober makes Middletown, Ohio sound like it resides in Vermont!
COMMUNITY COMMUNITY COMMUNITY. The most disgusting word in the Indo-European lexicon.
Fast forward four years, Trump is about to win a second term. Things can get better for the people.
He really sounds like a very slick and filtered Yale Grad, very carefully looking down on the rest of us. #rino
Vance, you lost me when you said your a conservative. I grew up in a hillbilly family and am a democrat. I agree with the other guy, get a U-haul and get out.
Garlic Tyme he got out. What are you talking about?
He may have been raised poor, but he is still white. Being white opens doors for him. Happy for him he is a writer.