Game Balance is More Difficult Than You Think

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  • Опубліковано 1 гру 2024
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КОМЕНТАРІ • 113

  • @shaunroberts2037
    @shaunroberts2037 21 день тому +45

    I've said this a thousand times before.
    Players are great at spotting problems but they are awful at fixing them.
    This goes for noobs and pros

    • @ANDELE3025
      @ANDELE3025 21 день тому +4

      The problem is, effectively all current day devs are even worse at fixing the problems.

    • @FireTrainer92
      @FireTrainer92 20 днів тому +3

      ​@@ANDELE3025are they? Games now are more balanced than they were. T8 for example is the most balanced first version of a Tekken game.

    • @ANDELE3025
      @ANDELE3025 20 днів тому +3

      @@FireTrainer92 Thats a nice opinion, shame that even if it were true the fighting game genre is a dead stagnant corpse used to house drunk party games whose main titles still didnt learn that a keyboard and mouse/control schemes with more than 6 inputs exist.

    • @TheSatyrical
      @TheSatyrical 20 днів тому +8

      Pro players are the least reliable since they have a conflict of interest. They have actual stakes to win (tournaments), so they will be heavily biased towards their character. You see this with Starcraft 2 where patches are currently community run and the changes are awful and clearly political or have a biased agenda.

    • @boredomkiller99
      @boredomkiller99 20 днів тому

      If Diago had a say in SFV Alex would have never gotten any buffs in the last season because he thinks a not sucky Alex would be annoying to fight.
      While collective pro and high level input is good, individually their opinions are terrible

  • @Nyanzaburou
    @Nyanzaburou 22 дні тому +73

    Fgc content creator talking about other fgc content creator's content talking about other fgc content creator's content.
    Honestly, get that money Diaphone. As long as you bring your unique perspective (you did), it's an interesting watch.

    • @asrathz1196
      @asrathz1196 22 дні тому +5

      Who's going to react to diaphones reaction video then?

    • @sorensouthard927
      @sorensouthard927 22 дні тому +16

      ​@@asrathz1196 Lord Knight maybe. He's also often on the sajam content chain.

  • @cavendish2925
    @cavendish2925 21 день тому +5

    BroskiFGC is yapping as usual. Apart from the fact that FG developers do hire consultants for game balance, Akira Katano - GGST's Development Director - is (or was) literally a veteran professional GG player and one of the strongest Potemkin players during his heyday.

  • @yellow4525
    @yellow4525 21 день тому +17

    Endless content glitch

    • @T00n4m1
      @T00n4m1 21 день тому

      Agripop-culture

  • @mutantmangoman
    @mutantmangoman 20 днів тому +2

    People need to understand that developers’ job is to make the game fun for all who play it, so balance for lower skill players is important too. A character being strong for pros vs strong for casuals is two different things

  • @NikolayNikoloff
    @NikolayNikoloff 21 день тому +10

    I was at 802 Strider stream and he was complaining about how broken is Cammy cr.MP and that was after they nerfed Cammy's dive kick and spin knuckle, while telling his viewers that Bison needs buffs 🤣🤣🤣, cause doesn't have reliable Anti-Air, while Bison cr.HP is literally one of the best cr.HPs in the game, on top of that Bison can AA with psycho crusher. People bias will always be a thing when it comes down to balance.

    • @MaxAlokin
      @MaxAlokin 21 день тому +6

      I sure wonder why you specifically remembered that

  • @pallingtontheshrike6374
    @pallingtontheshrike6374 22 дні тому +11

    there's a huge problem with asymmetric gameplay where the asymmetry itself may cause spikes, when some really strong players happen to favor one side over the others.
    For example, in SC2 before the newest wave of crazy patches, serral dominated the top tournament scene as zerg, but basically all the other zergs were dying en masse to terran (and protoss was barely getting to quarterfinals/semifinals).
    So on the one hand basically all major tourneys, zerg wins (serral), and not by a little, very often 3-0 or 3-1'ing top terrans; it took more or less a whole new 2 base timing build for serral to take the first 3-2 game (yes, zerg still won).
    But on the other hand at every other level terran was either stomping, or at least had a very good advantage over zerg.
    Fighting games wise it varies, and I'm not very well versed, but I bet you can think of similar situations.

    • @Lenarian
      @Lenarian 22 дні тому +2

      This is why the era of data-driven balance needs to end.
      Games are more interesting when there are spikes and valleys in the application of your character's kit vs a game where everyone has a 45% to 55% win rate at all levels of play because they've been flattened to a stupid degree.

    • @pallingtontheshrike6374
      @pallingtontheshrike6374 22 дні тому +2

      @@Lenarian how the fuck do you get that conclusion? the meta in SC2 and meta discussion got driven into a corner because those spikes got out of control. Literally the opposite.

    • @pallingtontheshrike6374
      @pallingtontheshrike6374 22 дні тому +2

      @@Lenarian It wasn't interesting when Serral won for the nth time, it was only a minor bit of catharsis when oliveira lost 3-2 as opposed to 3-0.
      That asymmetry causes spikes is fact, but these spikes should be mitigated lmao, not stretched into absurdity.
      Otherwise you have gacha game power creep.

    • @Lenarian
      @Lenarian 22 дні тому

      @@pallingtontheshrike6374
      Then we just gotta agree to disagree here. What you wrote sounds like a glowing endorsement of that game's balance to me.

    • @pallingtontheshrike6374
      @pallingtontheshrike6374 22 дні тому +2

      @@Lenarian glowing endorsement is when everyone is pissed at the balance because one guy warps the entire chart?
      again it really isn't interesting when one guy wins every fucking time by a landslide, and nobody comes even close.

  • @MrFraiche
    @MrFraiche 19 днів тому +1

    Balance is often conflated with equality. People try to balance by making things equal (e.g. give everyone a DP) but that reduces variety. The skill in balancing is to be able to introduce new mechanics without creating exploits inadvertently.

  • @woof9408
    @woof9408 22 дні тому +3

    fighting game balance is like those rocks that you stack on top of each other. You remove one and the whole thing falls apart

  • @ividboy7616
    @ividboy7616 22 дні тому +20

    No its not if they simply followed all of MY suggestions the game would be perfect

    • @ironman1458
      @ironman1458 21 день тому +2

      This but unironically

    • @ividboy7616
      @ividboy7616 20 днів тому

      @ironman1458 I've cracked the Da Vinci code on how to balance SF6 mechanics I swear to god if I was on that balance team I would be COOKING

  • @decksteroussnail
    @decksteroussnail 22 дні тому +16

    Reminds me of when Skullgirls released and everyone was complaining about Double assist being way too good. Mike Z tweeting a plethora of counterplay options but STILL because of public opinion and social media still had to nerf Double assist.

    • @eebbaa5560
      @eebbaa5560 22 дні тому +15

      just because something has “counterplay” doesn’t magically make it a good feature that is fun, engaging, or interactive to play with or against.

    • @salinalunara
      @salinalunara 22 дні тому +24

      managing player perception of your game is incredibly critical to the reception of the game in this b/c if ONE shitty opinion gets traction, it's a wrap no matter how untrue it is. a lot of ppl have lately been coming around on ds2, even though it was infamously called the worst dark souls game for a long time. like, for that game to be "awful," a LOT of those ideas ended up in elden ring, a critically and financially successful game.
      players ain't developers, and Gamers say things authoritatively w/o ANY of the knowledge that devs have access to internally.
      but you can't say anything critical about Gamers not knowing wtf they're talking about w/o someone being weird and shitty about it, especially online.

    • @JELIFISH19
      @JELIFISH19 22 дні тому +3

      I don't think the assist was nerfed simply because it was too good or did anything unfair. It just did too much. It was one of the best anti-air, forward moving, and lockdown assists in the game. It simply did everything extremely well. If you wanted an assist that did any of those things, double was the best option because you would get those other things as a bonus. It was clearly the best assist in the game. Nerfing it gave made the game more interesting because it added variety to the assists being picked. There wasn't an assist that did everything.

    • @shaolinotter
      @shaolinotter 21 день тому +3

      @1e0isfdkorblpg theres also another layer because people who favor balance over fun are the same people saying "akuma should always be top tier" or "dhalsim should always be low tier"
      so they just want the game to be boring AND unbalanced. which is how sf5 and dragonball fighterz happened

  • @denshitenshi
    @denshitenshi 20 днів тому

    The only truly consistent way to balance a game is through playtesting. Not just listening to people's feedback but watching the gameplay that led to this feedback.

  • @phatgrizzly3520
    @phatgrizzly3520 22 дні тому +46

    We joke about daisuke’s vision, but imagine if daisuke’s artistic vision for guilty was done through committee and consensus.
    Guilty gear would be just another bland ass anime style game instead of the pretty unique and silly aesthetic that people love now.
    We understand that for other artistic fields, but I don’t think balance is all that different. If we take everyone seriously and balance according to the consensus, we might get a super balanced game.
    But it will probably be dry and boring as hell.

    • @X_The_Y
      @X_The_Y 22 дні тому +13

      "Guilty gear would be just another bland ass anime style game instead of the pretty unique and silly aesthetic that people love now."
      Iunno man but Strive is getting pretty close to that lol. Basic UI, godawful looking lobbies, lost most of it's heavy rock aesthetic, no idea what the hell is going on with the OST but jukebox saved the music from getting turned off in the settings from day 1.
      Besides, I don't think they really know what they want Strive to be right now, might take a few years for them to get there but strive came to be because they initially thought that people didn't try Gear cause it was hard/complex and ended up making something dumb like wall break, removing strings and completely fucking up the air game into something weird. Also funny is the fact they removed the stylish mode for no reason when this was meant to be a simple pick up and play game.
      What made the game sell wasn't "simplifying" it but actual marketing and Arcsys getting put on the map thanks to their other works, DBFZ mainly.

    • @eebbaa5560
      @eebbaa5560 22 дні тому +6

      @@X_The_Y i completely and totally agree with you. strive has lost a large majority of the charm that xrd and previous titles had built over the years in favor of a more generic approach, and the gameplay also reflects this.
      “daisuke’s vision” is such an ironic oxymoron, because that guy has almost completely lost the plot for guilty gear at this point. ever since strive’s release, guilty gear has simplified itself in all aspects of design in order to cater to new players, leading to its current unfocused state.
      the guilty gear fandom has been infiltrated by a lot of tourists, so the popular majority of strive players like to cope and pretend that everyone who criticizes the game is just hating, but a lot of the criticisms leveled at strive have been completely justified. the ui is pretty lame, the lobby system is just completely non-functional and miserable to use, the aesthetic of character designs has devolved into techwear fitting for a hoyoverse game, and despite what everyone will tell you, the vocal soundtracks mostly suck to the point that 9/10 character themes are straight-up trash.
      as for the actual gameplay, they’ve pretty much torched the combo system and the devs have admitted that they don’t even know why they put a wallbreak system in the game in the first place, so there’s that. the bottom line is pretty much that they’ve ruined the game to try and attract new players who dropped the game after a month. overall it’s turned out to be a successful gambit for them, but bad for most of us.

    • @shaolinotter
      @shaolinotter 22 дні тому +5

      I mean fair argument but strive sold 30x more than the previous game BECAUSE its extremely bland in comparison. Rather, they made the game intentionally scrubby early on, and then tapered in fun stuff as the casual players filtered out. similar to street fighter 5. but it's always gonna feel kind bad when people sell you a bad game on purpose

    • @carlschrappen9712
      @carlschrappen9712 22 дні тому +2

      ​@@X_The_YI think it primarily sold well because it came out with rollback during covid.

    • @X_The_Y
      @X_The_Y 22 дні тому

      @@carlschrappen9712 With fighting game players sure but most people that buy games dont care about that, it also came out during a anime fg drought so there's that too and it looked visually good.

  • @Bluzlbee
    @Bluzlbee 10 днів тому

    meta statistics that SF5 had are really easy to balance a game, just tweak only weaker characters below 5.0 MU until everyone equalizes

  • @berserk_jp
    @berserk_jp 21 день тому

    what a great video. I just wish fgc would take more about balance and this topic in general in videos, not just when shit hits the fan/tier list compilation

  • @yamine_Q_ray
    @yamine_Q_ray 20 днів тому

    ive said it elsewhere but starcraft 2's balance council is proof you dont want players to be in charge of balance.
    like imagine if sol 5P just did everything and that it was really the only button you pressed in neutral cause it was just that good, then you see in the patch notes 'sol 5P is all sol players ever press, so we buffed all his other buttons but also keeping 5P the same.'

  • @elijahoneill5228
    @elijahoneill5228 21 день тому

    1:12 dismantling the Zoe downplay one piece at a time

  • @nathanieljones8043
    @nathanieljones8043 20 днів тому +1

    9:30 it's always has been the meta it's just way more people can reach the devs we would do this pre videogames with chess go and even normal sports like soccer and basketball.

  • @tiagrossin
    @tiagrossin 20 днів тому

    Trust the vision

  • @nathanieljones8043
    @nathanieljones8043 20 днів тому

    So it sounds like something I should react to

  • @3R9Sasuke
    @3R9Sasuke 22 дні тому

    Diaphone, have you ever thought about reaching out to smaller indie fighting games to help with balancing? It might be a good way to get some actual experience in the field and see what it's really like.

  • @HighLanderPonyYT
    @HighLanderPonyYT 21 день тому +1

    Lotsa rambling, opted out.

  • @commdaofighting
    @commdaofighting 20 днів тому

    Now we need Brian to react to your vid

  • @francie3169
    @francie3169 22 дні тому +1

    As someone watching this video
    Does that mean I'm reacting to someone reacting someone reacting to a tweet?

  • @affinity601
    @affinity601 22 дні тому +3

    I already feel like that 1 person you can count on to be honest is SQ. The goat is always real. Deb too but unfortunately no more fighting games :(

  • @treyhova1183
    @treyhova1183 20 днів тому

    Its funny you say that you want to be a balance lead on League, seeing how thats a team that hires a designated “Scape Goat” basically.

  • @ektran4205
    @ektran4205 21 день тому +1

    play testers who are pros should ban from using characters the they use the most or their top mains

  • @tek_lynx4225
    @tek_lynx4225 22 дні тому

    The new Potekmin in the 3v3 beta is the definition of unbalanced and most broken thing to ever happen.

  • @KerranJast1337
    @KerranJast1337 21 день тому +1

    Using purely stats to balance reminds me of how Overwatch does balance. If a specific character is really strong it leads to more people playing them, and some low-level player will pick them just because higher-level players say they're strong, without knowing how to play them, leading to a lower win-rate for that character that's already pretty strong. This then leads the dev team to buff the character despite them already being strong/annoying to play against, because their winrate drops below 50% due to mirrors and inexperienced player picking them because they're strong

  • @eebbaa5560
    @eebbaa5560 22 дні тому +42

    game balance is difficult when developers don’t have a vision. if they have a solid, defined idea of what they want to do with a game, then making a confident decision will always be better, even if they make the “wrong” decision. what’s most frustrating to players is when the changes that developers make are logically inconsistent. game developers deserve some credit, but they also deserve the criticism that comes with making bad patches. as it stands, most developers don’t try to make their jobs any easier for themselves.

    • @eebbaa5560
      @eebbaa5560 22 дні тому +3

      @ that’s still better than the usual and will frustrate less players overall than the alternative unless the changes are uniquely bad. developers just need to learn and accept that you can’t make everyone happy and start focusing their goals accordingly. every game would be better off for it.

    • @shaolinotter
      @shaolinotter 22 дні тому +8

      @@eebbaa5560 one aspect that people dont talk about is that if a game is plotted to get support for 6 seasons, then achieving balance before that would be considered a failure and the community would complain. but as you said, this could be fixed by having an actual goal and quit putting out bad patches on purpose

    • @shaolinotter
      @shaolinotter 22 дні тому +9

      personally I think that if you want to have an esport, one of the primary goals should be "the better player should usually win", but it doesn't look like that will ever be a consensus, so why are we doing this weird performance of a sport

    • @eebbaa5560
      @eebbaa5560 22 дні тому +7

      @@shaolinotter yeah i completely agree with you, key word being usually. every good game needs to have some outcome variation in order to be interesting, but i also believe that a better player should be able to consistently beat worse players at high rates over a long period of time. and yeah, fighting games want that esports label, but they tend to lean too heavily into the random nature of the games, making them either too read-based in general, or heavily skewing the reads in favor of one side (i.e. sf6 being heavily offense-favored), which artificially increases volatility and makes the game less consistent to its detriment. similarly, super high damage in guilty gear strive makes the game feel explosive in a way that doesn’t even feel like it can be competitive. of course, there’s the caveat that fighting games are essentially “random” by nature, in that you constantly have to commit to options without knowing what your opponent will do, but modern fighting games take this to the extreme and don’t you give you the room or options to actually interact with your opponent and think about what they’re doing, as opposed to just forcing your gameplan until it works.

    • @shaolinotter
      @shaolinotter 22 дні тому +4

      @@eebbaa5560 Agreed as well. I dont think randomness is a contradiction. poker players deal with randomness and know how to play a bad hand. that is different than video game devs just favoring the weaker player.
      many would say mvc2 is random and silly but justin wong is going to beat you at least 99 times out of 100. fun and balance dont have to be at odds with each other. but I blame the community just as much as the devs as it is a cycle

  • @SilverDashie
    @SilverDashie 22 дні тому +8

    Wouldnt it be more content farm to contact brosky and sajam to talk about this topic?
    I suspect that would bring a lot to the table

    • @kenja0685
      @kenja0685 22 дні тому +10

      No. You do that AFTER reacting to their react. You get a couple of free videos that way.

    • @SilverDashie
      @SilverDashie 22 дні тому

      @@kenja0685 that just sounds shallow even if its a good market strategy

    • @KZ_Suntorn
      @KZ_Suntorn 22 дні тому +1

      @@SilverDashie I mean he says "You gotta play the content game" in the first 3 secs of the video mate.

    • @eebbaa5560
      @eebbaa5560 22 дні тому +2

      sajam is the last person i want to hear talk about this shit. he’s completely allergic to criticizing game design; i’ve literally never heard him say something bad about gameplay before.
      you could make sajam play the most dogshit game of all time and he would still find some way to smugly avoid saying anything bad about it. sure, he complains about netcode and other peripheral bullshit to make it seem like he’s not a shill, but he absolutely refuses to make any substantial criticisms whatsoever about a game’s creative choices or actual design.
      sajam’s stream/video discussing broski’s tweet was actually insufferable and he mostly just devolved into glazing game devs like he always does.

    • @Boyzby
      @Boyzby 21 день тому +1

      ​@@eebbaa5560When he tries out games, I'm pretty sure he always says negative things about the gameplay in the video. Maybe you should give them another watch.
      Okay, c'mon. HE DOES IT IN THIS VIDEO.

  • @steadman379
    @steadman379 21 день тому +1

    Bro just nerf mewtwo ex and misty it’s not that hard

  • @moil6384
    @moil6384 22 дні тому

    more highbrow content~

  • @ammi5311
    @ammi5311 22 дні тому

    Who why how put faith in average intelligence

    • @Hostefar
      @Hostefar 20 днів тому +1

      Do you think you’re way above average intelligence?

  • @shaolinotter
    @shaolinotter 22 дні тому +1

    hopefully this isn't a hint that theyre already sabotaging the balance for MVC4. especially since youtubers already ended that series once

  • @foolwithacamera
    @foolwithacamera 22 дні тому +4

    Don't eat on stream 👎

    • @wetmonkeyscalp9842
      @wetmonkeyscalp9842 22 дні тому

      I hope he stuffs his mouth and talks into the camera 👍🏽 👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽

  • @Nicomartz52
    @Nicomartz52 21 день тому

    Cry me a river.