I think you hit the nail on the head. I sold my Kahles k16i for the Vortex Razor gen iii. I had the G2R reticle, but the dot was just not Colorado bright, even though the eyebox and glass was the best I have seen through a 1-6. I think people are unaware of the hidden feature in the gen iii in that it has a transparent center dot allowing you to see through it when then illumination is off, which is the downfall of all the Nightforce reticles.
The center dot for the ATACR is 0.35 mil’s (closer to 1moa). Outside of the donut is 2.0 mils, which is much closer to the 6 moa that you said the center dot size was. Agreed that the extra circle around the dot is not ideal. As always, great information and overview of quality options. Side note, music at the end was drastically louder than your speaking audio and caught me off guard.
Great video I couldn't agree more, I ran a Vortex Razor Gen 2E 1-6 for a couple years, great reticle design, eyebox, excellent glass but it was a little heavy for my taste. I had a Kahles K6i and NX8 at the same time and ran them both in a carbine class engaging targets from 25 yards out to 300, NX8 was fast up close but once you spun it up past 4x the reticle was garbage covers up way too much of the target and FOV was not that great. Kahles smoked the NX8 in every aspect very light, glass was extraordinary, built in throw lever was gold, FOV was amazing, but you are at that 2K level. Then I found my current setup the Trijicon 1-6 Accupoint, fiber optic / tritium technology, always on, no battery, self adjusting dot intensity ( was skeptical at first but after using it for two years I'm definitely not ). FOV is better than the Razor Gen 2 by about 2.5', I run the MOA green dot reticle and it is a extremely fine aiming point that doesn't cover the target at longer ranges. I found myself when switching from the others I didn't spend the time adjusting the reticle intensity and focused more on the transition and getting rounds on target faster. The accupower is very similar but with some key differences, it has a battery, adjustable LED, reticle covers target and not near as clean as a good bright dot.....so it was really close to the others in that aspect. The acupoint 1-6 with the Green MOA dot comes in at under 1K and is built like a tank, I truly believe it is the evolution of ACOG technology with none of the draw backs, you have 1-6 mag range, great FOV, 19.2 oz, always on, no battery, you can think of it as a striker fired pistol of optics...always ready to go no buttons to push or levers to put it into action...just pick it up and run it!! I run it in classes during the summer on my BCM 14.5, switch it to my light weight 6.5 for rifle season, and put it on a slug gun where I cant hunt with a high power rifle, it runs like a sewing machine...also works great on a lever 30/30! I highly recommend you check it out for under 1K in my opinion nothing even comes close.
On BDCs: I remember talking to an engineer at Trijicon for over an hour back when the ACOG first came out and the bullet drop of the 7.62 NATO and 5.56mm service match ammunition at that time was similar enough to use the same reticle. Wind holds were different. Everything has changed in the ammunition world since then.
The Vortex Viper PST Gen 2 is a great LPVO option as well. It's 90% of a 1x6 Razor Gen 2 for less cost. Only differences are the body color, turrets, and the optical lense. The turrets and optical lense on the Viper are still great. That info comes straight from Vortex.
Man Ive never had a super high quality scope. I have several primary arms 1-6x acss and their 1-8x and not too long ago I had the leupold vxiii 1-5x but ended up trading the upper it was on. I really love the versatility of the primary arms 1-6x an 8x especially with the reticle, then the glass and weight of the leupold was awesome wish primary arms would team up with leupold and put their acss reticle into leupolds light weight scopes. But I recently ordered a 1-6x v-cog with the segmented circle 5,56 77gn reticle. It hasn't arrived in the mailbox and I cant wait been checking the mail 3 times a day. Im not an operator by no means just a big gun nut and shooter. In my opinion the lpvo cant be beat. Weight is the only category the red dot beats an lpvo in if you ask me. I know they may not be as quick up close and the illumination not be bright as ppl like but theres a simple fix to this problem, the offset micro red dot or ring mounted micro red dot lol Why choose between the two when you can have both!!!!!!!! I really like that setup much better personally than a red dot/magnifier combo. But like I said I like them all even the fixed power prism sights. Same as with the scopes ive never had a high end prism like an acog or elcan but I love my primary arms 2.5x acss so much I have two. Wish I never would have sold my old school primary arm 4x acss prism that they discontinued.
Upgraded from a shit eagle to a razor 1-6 recently and the difference in quality is fucking astounding. I may get a Steiner P4Xi for my home defense .300blk. Good vid man
@@ubercooper Maybe the dot isn't bright enough in daylight? However, it has great eye relief, great eye box, good reticle depending on which one is chosen, I think the glass is good, but it is 6 ounces lighter than the Razors' and 2 ounces more than the Leupold. Looks kind of funky though. Plus has Trijicon's reputation for durability.
@@KineticConsulting very interested in hearing why it didn't make your list, the combination of reticle (love the triangle post concept) plus lack of batteries had me extremely interested in it, but I have heard a few comment on the illumination as iffy similar to Trijicon's other non-battery options (ACOGs, Reflexes, etc)
The main reason is it didn't make the list is I don't use optics that get washed out by white light at night. That goes for all optics I use, pistol or rifle. They have no use to me if they can't be used at night
I think Nightforce is riding on their glory of days gone by. Prices are far far too high for subpar optics. Too many better alternatives for half the price.
I'm currently in the market for an optic so thanks for the video. I'm surprised I didn't see either EoTech LPVO on the list or the mention of preferred Focal Plane. I have the new Trijicon Credo 1-6x24 on my shortlist mainly due to the price I've been seeing online, but damn I really wish I could justify the Gen III Razor to the wife. Not to mention the optic and Scalarworks mount would cost more than my AR which wasn't cheap either.
Waiting on my K16i, very impatiently... Spent a lot of time, probably a year, researching and shooting a few of the many competitors. Really looking forward to it coming in!
Ryan McDonnell I don’t think I could have brought myself to buy it if I hadn’t been able to handle a few in person and compare them to a few others. I love the 3gr and the overall brightness. And my complaint of the auto off is a super minuscule one. I think this is the best optic I could have gotten for my 13.7 solgw.
@@2424DMC breh, I ain't even been able to place an order for one yet! Been trying for quite awhile and have continued to miss when they have the handguard and barrel in stock to build one. For fucks sake!
As Jon has said many times in his videos, everyone's eyes are different and mine have difficulty making out the ACSS chevron. I have to really focus on them. YMMV.
Unfortunately for me, having a ring or segments around the dot are the way I have to go. Not sure if it's my astigmatism or something else but if I just have a dot at 1x I have issues with the dot splitting. Ymmv
@@3gunAMax Well it's something. I found out when I bought a Razor HD II and had to return it. Speaking with other people with astigmatism that had similar results. Just my experience.
5 months late so dunno if it’s still relevant but it’s a fantastic scope. Basically a cheaper razor. It’s heavier then my ex and the magnification adjustment is stiffer then me in the morning but the eye box is almost as good at the razor and the reticle is really bright. If you can’t afford the razor buy the pst it’s great.
Which has the best eyebox? I have a fixed stock(commiefornia) and i found it irritating to adjust my stance in different situation when shooting with my steiner p4xi. It has great glass. But i need something more forgivable for eye box. i would like to know if there is any difference before spent 1k or more on different optics. Thanks
Such a slept on LPVO because morons see the 31.5 ounce weight and turn their brains off and go "wow that's too heavy!" while ignoring a 25 oz Razor sitting in a 7 oz mount
it all comes down to what you use your rifle for i have a modifred 8.5 inch 300 blk that i use for self defense that i keep in the car when i am going somewhere this goes with me everyday and i have a vortex strikeeagle gen 2 1 to 8 and a t rex arms offset mount with a holsun 507 reddot andit is perfect for my needs now if i was a policeman or something like that i would be using something like a razor but i only use mine for selfdefense
Great review! New subscriber! Wondering if the nightforce has been upgraded to go since they changed the reticle and size of center red dot in 2021? Thanks 👍🏻🇺🇸
Good video......i have the vortex strike eagle(gen2) 1-8 with bdc3 reticle and the eye box isn't the best. Even on 1 power you can only have the stock out 2 clicks before you see scope shadow. Stock has to be all the way in when magnified. Im a vortex fanboy but I won't be getting no more of the strike eagle scopes only the razor and up for now on.
I have a gen 2 razor on my 14.5 and love it. Have it sitting in a geissele with reptilla mounted holosun. Question, if I wanted to upgrade to a better reticle for wind holds out to max distance at my range of 450, is the leupy or the 1-10 better. The 10 power seems distorted at time on videos without parallax adjustment, and the reticle seems too small at 1 power to be used without the power on. I like how the razor I can pick up and use the cross hairs without the dot on (my radian is my hd and do all rifle.) Is the leupold worth the upgrade, or the gen 3? Really trying to stretch the legs of the radian with 77g, wind is a bitch as you know, and having holds would be helpful, but don’t want to loose that razor cross hair pick up/point and shoot in a HD role. Feel like the leupold might be better. Thank you!
I like the 1-10 but you're right at distance it can be hard to get it to be clear on days or locations I need more parallax adjustment. The reticle I have no issues with.
I'm looking for a do it all rifle build optic. I am starting with bcm 14.5 MCMR upper and I want something that can shoot from 0 to up to 600 yards. I already have a Trijicon accupoint 1-4 which is great until 300 yards ( no bdc) and a primary arms 1-8 platnum (heavy and huge). Those 2 optics are good but not ideal. I'm not running any supressors( illinois sucks) but I am running nvgs and an IR laser (cuz some freedom) . I'm meaning towards the mark 6 or the razor 1-6. Which would you give the edge, or is there another one I'm missing like the elcan spectre 1-4
So I'm a huge fan of both the razor and the mk6 but the mk6 has a slightly better reticle options for holds. The elcan has terrible eye relief and sits too low for lasers. I'll be up there in Illinois this summer so check out the training schedule.
How bad are BDCs in practice? It's not like people will be at the exact BDC distances, in theory. On the flip side, a friend of mine did a tour in Iraq and didn't have to take shots beyond 150 yards with his ACOG.
They aren't horrible but they aren't exact. Mils help way more. That's your friends experience and is a sample size of 1. There are hundreds of mid range engagements in both OIF/OEF.
Kinetic Consulting fair points. He doesn't often talk about his combat experience and I do my best not to ask. Obviously there are times to take longer shots. It sounds like his area didn't have a lot of open areas. My own urban area rarely has more than 75 yards unobstructed.
@@KineticConsultingCurious myself and couldn't find your Instagram video on it. I would assume the LPVO would have to have a NV illumination setting which the razor III 1-10 does not. Have you got around to making an indepth UA-cam vid on this? Thanks
First I gotta turn my volume down because of that "music" then I have to turn it back so I can actually hear his low volume presentation. But good information never the less.
On your razor 1-10 I didn’t see any mill dots or distance markers on the reticle like you said you prefer. Does it actually have them and your camera just didn’t pick them up in the video?
surprised more ppl dont get into the Vortex PST2....great glass...600-700 bucks. super bright red dot. eye box is massive...just wish they made it in a 1-8. i fuckin love it. almost razor level but alot cheaper.
Yes you have to zero your optic then, put the magnifier on and check zero. If there is a poi shift then use the 2 adjustments on the magnifier. Some cheap magnifiers don't have adjustments
Used an elcan for a while and liked it a lot but I personally feel that they are out dated do to the low nature of their mount and LPVOs with more magnification
I love my NX8 (def cannot wait to get a gen III 1-10) but for the size is great. Also HATE the center at 8X... great for PID but bad if you dial... if you hold that's the only way to see your hits cause it's YUUUGEEEE haha
I think you should reconsider bdc's with the idea of seancing them into your bullet/velocity/atmospheric data. Hear me out: I'll be referring to an ACOG reticle just because everyone is familiar with it. Imagine we have an ACOG reticle. That BDC was designed with m855 (62 gr, low BC, 2970 fps, standard temp/pressure) in mind, but we want to shoot 77smk out of a 10.3 (77gr, .3xx BC, ~2400 FPS, winter in Afghanistan [30 degrees, 30.00inHh]). Big difference (keep in mind throughout this how MASSIVE the difference is), but we can work it out to where the BDC still has utility I want to make the BDC have utility because if the BDC has utility, since the rapid range finding feature still works, then the BDC will be faster than a mil reticle (because a mil reticle generally has shitty rapid range finding features). Granted, it is assuming we can see the target broadside shoulder to shoulder, which I admit is a stretch in a gunfight. That being said, it still is powerful to be able to immediately associate a stadia with a distance, which isn't as intuitive with a mil reticle. I work utility into a BDC with different loads by first looking up the manufacturer measurements for the BDC. Trijicon says the ACOG assumes 19.2 minutes of drop at 600m from an 100m zero. In reality for a 600m shot, our 77smk out of the 10.3 will need 7.5 mils (25.9 moa) IF we zero at 100m. Let's look at what happens if we zero our 100m hash at 225m. From a 225m zero, a 600m shot will need 22.3 moa. That's only 3 moa off from the bdc. Yes, that's 18 entire inches. But if you don't have rangefinder on your gun it's not like you'll know the dude is exactly 600m away. Without rangefinding, either with the reticle or with a laser, any holdover you assume you'll need is just a guess until you fire a shot and get some data. A ~565m shot will require 19.3 moa. Basically, that 600m line, with a 225m zero now represents a 565m shot. I personally can't eyeball the difference between 565m and 600m, so at that distance it's a guess anyways. Regardless, aiming at the name tape level will still hit a man on a knee. The 500m line becomes 480m. The 400m line is still 400m. The 300m line is now 330m. From the tip of the chevron, you have a +- 5 inch max point blank out to 265m. It's not perfect, but an optic like the atacr 1-8 or the vortex 1-10 doesn't even have adjustable parallax... precision is already neutered right there. Might as well go with a rangefinding bdc so snap/reflexive shots are a little quicker... have a good body position, observe splash or trace, adjust fire. I used a really extreme difference to make my point. Sometimes big differences work out better ie 77smk lines up pretty good with 175smk, which makes sense considering the bc/velocity differences. Gave a thorough response because I appreciate your videos. Pushed me over the edge to buy some nvg's.
Nightforce is my preferred optic, and this gentleman sharing his opinion isn't rocking the boat in any way. I enjoyed his video and hearing what he thinks.
Nightforce ATACR F1 has a .35 mil center dot. In a reticle that is in the measurement of mils, moa doesn’t mean shit. This optic blows all those others out of the water. Light transmission and class clarity are among the best in this optic. Also, tracking plays a big part in optic quality. Nightforce dominates this in spades. Vortex has had their fair share of tracking issues. Leopold is nice but for that money I’d rather go Kahles or S&B. Other than that great info man. Also, for all the NVG shooting I’m sure you do, having that offset red dot is a must when using a LPVO. However, for this I think the red dot/magnifier is king.
I don't like it's reticle enough to keep one. Also it's illumination wasn't bright enough Imo. They may have fixed it in the last year but I don't know
Everyone I've spoken to has the same response as Jon. Everyone said it was dogshit basically, but no one I know has tried the updated version bc the prior gen was so bad lol. Basically look elsewhere. Primary Arms PLx Compact 1-8 coming out soon, it's 16.95oz with a 121ft FOV @ 100 yards. NightForce ATACR 1-8 DMx reticle. Vortex Razor 1-6 or 1-10. That's the pool I'd pick from....
I had an extensive conversation with the nightforce reps and told them to their face they needed to update the reticle for the NX8 like they did for the ATACR DMX. They looked at each other and shrugged saying they were having internal discussions about it saying they would do it if people wanted it. I chuckled and said. “Yeah I’m telling you now.” So they know about it, but still remains to be seen if they will actually do it.
any range that you'd be using less than 6 power on would likely not benefit from having a FFP reticle imo there's a reason most 1-6s are SFP and 1-8/1-10 are FFP
Very disappointed as I totally thought you knew what you were talking about. The Nightforce NX8 center dot is 1.25 MOA and since it's a first focal plane reticle the dot is 1.25 MOA throughout the magnification range. I have this scope and took it through an SPR class. There's no doubt that I wish the center dot was smaller, but 6 MOA...that's comical. I don't see how a proficient shooter could make such a big mistake. It would be very easy to look at a target at any distance through the NX8 and see that the center dot is nowhere near 6 MOA lol. Below is a link to NF where they specify the dimensions of the reticle. I too wish you knew someone at NF so they could have corrected you before you gave your audience this false information. I think it's only fair that you correct it with an annotation so that you don't scare off potential NF customers. www.nightforceoptics.com/technology/reticles/fc-moa
Thanks for letting me know. The tech specs say 1.25 but when I look at a 6 in circle at 100 yds the center dot covers the entire 6 in. I'll double check this next time I'm at the range and take some pictures. Please do so too, as I only have 1 NX8. Mine could possibly be a mistake from when they initially came out. Thanks
@@KineticConsulting Yeah something is definitely wrong with your scope. In the SPR classes we were shooting 2 MOA targets and the dot was definitely smaller then 2 MOA.
@@KineticConsulting it does matter to me at least because most MRAD scopes have much finer adjustments compared to MOA scopes that are a quarter MOA at a time. That's not at all precise.
I think you hit the nail on the head. I sold my Kahles k16i for the Vortex Razor gen iii. I had the G2R reticle, but the dot was just not Colorado bright, even though the eyebox and glass was the best I have seen through a 1-6. I think people are unaware of the hidden feature in the gen iii in that it has a transparent center dot allowing you to see through it when then illumination is off, which is the downfall of all the Nightforce reticles.
I like to think Alaska bright, cause when that sunlight is glaring off the snow sometimes, it can make it hard to see a reticle 😂
The center dot for the ATACR is 0.35 mil’s (closer to 1moa). Outside of the donut is 2.0 mils, which is much closer to the 6 moa that you said the center dot size was. Agreed that the extra circle around the dot is not ideal. As always, great information and overview of quality options. Side note, music at the end was drastically louder than your speaking audio and caught me off guard.
Awesome overview man. Thanks for putting that together. I was pretty set on a Razor 1-6 but now you have me tempted to splurge on the 1-10.
Good info, stranger :)
Thanks bro
Great video I couldn't agree more, I ran a Vortex Razor Gen 2E 1-6 for a couple years, great reticle design, eyebox, excellent glass but it was a little heavy for my taste. I had a Kahles K6i and NX8 at the same time and ran them both in a carbine class engaging targets from 25 yards out to 300, NX8 was fast up close but once you spun it up past 4x the reticle was garbage covers up way too much of the target and FOV was not that great. Kahles smoked the NX8 in every aspect very light, glass was extraordinary, built in throw lever was gold, FOV was amazing, but you are at that 2K level. Then I found my current setup the Trijicon 1-6 Accupoint, fiber optic / tritium technology, always on, no battery, self adjusting dot intensity ( was skeptical at first but after using it for two years I'm definitely not ). FOV is better than the Razor Gen 2 by about 2.5', I run the MOA green dot reticle and it is a extremely fine aiming point that doesn't cover the target at longer ranges. I found myself when switching from the others I didn't spend the time adjusting the reticle intensity and focused more on the transition and getting rounds on target faster. The accupower is very similar but with some key differences, it has a battery, adjustable LED, reticle covers target and not near as clean as a good bright dot.....so it was really close to the others in that aspect. The acupoint 1-6 with the Green MOA dot comes in at under 1K and is built like a tank, I truly believe it is the evolution of ACOG technology with none of the draw backs, you have 1-6 mag range, great FOV, 19.2 oz, always on, no battery, you can think of it as a striker fired pistol of optics...always ready to go no buttons to push or levers to put it into action...just pick it up and run it!! I run it in classes during the summer on my BCM 14.5, switch it to my light weight 6.5 for rifle season, and put it on a slug gun where I cant hunt with a high power rifle, it runs like a sewing machine...also works great on a lever 30/30! I highly recommend you check it out for under 1K in my opinion nothing even comes close.
On BDCs: I remember talking to an engineer at Trijicon for over an hour back when the ACOG first came out and the bullet drop of the 7.62 NATO and 5.56mm service match ammunition at that time was similar enough to use the same reticle. Wind holds were different. Everything has changed in the ammunition world since then.
The Vortex Viper PST Gen 2 is a great LPVO option as well. It's 90% of a 1x6 Razor Gen 2 for less cost. Only differences are the body color, turrets, and the optical lense. The turrets and optical lense on the Viper are still great. That info comes straight from Vortex.
I’m
Man Ive never had a super high quality scope. I have several primary arms 1-6x acss and their 1-8x and not too long ago I had the leupold vxiii 1-5x but ended up trading the upper it was on. I really love the versatility of the primary arms 1-6x an 8x especially with the reticle, then the glass and weight of the leupold was awesome wish primary arms would team up with leupold and put their acss reticle into leupolds light weight scopes. But I recently ordered a 1-6x v-cog with the segmented circle 5,56 77gn reticle. It hasn't arrived in the mailbox and I cant wait been checking the mail 3 times a day. Im not an operator by no means just a big gun nut and shooter. In my opinion the lpvo cant be beat. Weight is the only category the red dot beats an lpvo in if you ask me. I know they may not be as quick up close and the illumination not be bright as ppl like but theres a simple fix to this problem, the offset micro red dot or ring mounted micro red dot lol Why choose between the two when you can have both!!!!!!!! I really like that setup much better personally than a red dot/magnifier combo. But like I said I like them all even the fixed power prism sights. Same as with the scopes ive never had a high end prism like an acog or elcan but I love my primary arms 2.5x acss so much I have two. Wish I never would have sold my old school primary arm 4x acss prism that they discontinued.
Upgraded from a shit eagle to a razor 1-6 recently and the difference in quality is fucking astounding. I may get a Steiner P4Xi for my home defense .300blk. Good vid man
I've handled quite a few LPVO's and the Steiner P4Xi is the best "budget" model I've used. Hopefully they make a 1-6x model!
Leupold MK 6 is what I’m here for. Can’t wait to get mine in the mail. 👍🏽✅
Check out the Trijicon TR-24 or TR-25. Lightweight, no batteries, and excellent eye relief
I have. Didn't even make my list.
@@KineticConsulting What disqualified it?
@@ubercooper Maybe the dot isn't bright enough in daylight? However, it has great eye relief, great eye box, good reticle depending on which one is chosen, I think the glass is good, but it is 6 ounces lighter than the Razors' and 2 ounces more than the Leupold. Looks kind of funky though. Plus has Trijicon's reputation for durability.
@@KineticConsulting very interested in hearing why it didn't make your list, the combination of reticle (love the triangle post concept) plus lack of batteries had me extremely interested in it, but I have heard a few comment on the illumination as iffy similar to Trijicon's other non-battery options (ACOGs, Reflexes, etc)
The main reason is it didn't make the list is I don't use optics that get washed out by white light at night. That goes for all optics I use, pistol or rifle. They have no use to me if they can't be used at night
I think Nightforce is riding on their glory of days gone by. Prices are far far too high for subpar optics. Too many better alternatives for half the price.
How many nightforce optics have you used?
Thanks for sharing your knowledge and info. I have an MRO on my short stick, and am considering a LPVO on my 16” gun.
That's what I went with, lvpo on the 14.5 and aimpoint on the 11.5, can recommend it
Great info sir. Much appreciated. Now to find an open range to get my Vortex HD 1-10 sighted in on.
I'm currently in the market for an optic so thanks for the video. I'm surprised I didn't see either EoTech LPVO on the list or the mention of preferred Focal Plane. I have the new Trijicon Credo 1-6x24 on my shortlist mainly due to the price I've been seeing online, but damn I really wish I could justify the Gen III Razor to the wife. Not to mention the optic and Scalarworks mount would cost more than my AR which wasn't cheap either.
Last year I had an Eotech lpvo and it didn't have bright enough illumination for my needs
Recently picked up a k16i that’s hit every mark for me thus far. The only actual complaint I have is the auto off feature. Great video Duffy.
Waiting on my K16i, very impatiently...
Spent a lot of time, probably a year, researching and shooting a few of the many competitors. Really looking forward to it coming in!
Ryan McDonnell I don’t think I could have brought myself to buy it if I hadn’t been able to handle a few in person and compare them to a few others. I love the 3gr and the overall brightness. And my complaint of the auto off is a super minuscule one. I think this is the best optic I could have gotten for my 13.7 solgw.
@@2424DMC good to know, mine will be going on a 13.7 SOLGW, once they have some shit in stock again.
Until then, it'll be on a 13.9 Triarc.
Ryan McDonnell you do know how long you might be waiting, right? 😂😂😂
@@2424DMC breh, I ain't even been able to place an order for one yet! Been trying for quite awhile and have continued to miss when they have the handguard and barrel in stock to build one. For fucks sake!
Good info. I think I’m gonna try that new reticle on the nx8 that came with the new fde model.
@Kinetic Consulting What are your thoughts on the Primary Arms ACSS reticle?
I haven't used it. But it looks pretty decent
As Jon has said many times in his videos, everyone's eyes are different and mine have difficulty making out the ACSS chevron. I have to really focus on them. YMMV.
The only reason I haven’t jumped on an LPVO is because it seems hard to shoot with offhand.
Have you tried it?
Kinetic Consulting Nope! No friends with LPVOs to try. Just me and my lonely EOTech. This video is definitely making me consider one though.
@@burtrandolph1745 damn, well it's not difficult. Just a practice thing just like when most people first try support side shooting.
Unfortunately for me, having a ring or segments around the dot are the way I have to go. Not sure if it's my astigmatism or something else but if I just have a dot at 1x I have issues with the dot splitting.
Ymmv
Astigmatism isn't going to be an issue on LPVO because the projection is not like a red dot. amaxwell@vortexoptics.com if you have more questions.
@@3gunAMax Well it's something. I found out when I bought a Razor HD II and had to return it. Speaking with other people with astigmatism that had similar results. Just my experience.
What are your thoughts on the Viper PST Gen II?
Haven't used one
5 months late so dunno if it’s still relevant but it’s a fantastic scope. Basically a cheaper razor. It’s heavier then my ex and the magnification adjustment is stiffer then me in the morning but the eye box is almost as good at the razor and the reticle is really bright. If you can’t afford the razor buy the pst it’s great.
Which has the best eyebox? I have a fixed stock(commiefornia) and i found it irritating to adjust my stance in different situation when shooting with my steiner p4xi. It has great glass. But i need something more forgivable for eye box. i would like to know if there is any difference before spent 1k or more on different optics. Thanks
Both of the razor HDs have the most forgivng eye boxes out of the LPVOs I've used
what about the VCOG? Segmented circle.
Such a slept on LPVO because morons see the 31.5 ounce weight and turn their brains off and go "wow that's too heavy!" while ignoring a 25 oz Razor sitting in a 7 oz mount
I prefere a Red Dot + Magnifier for most applications though an LPVO is a good option.
it all comes down to what you use your rifle for i have a modifred 8.5 inch 300 blk that i use for self defense that i keep in the car when i am going somewhere this goes with me everyday and i have a vortex strikeeagle gen 2 1 to 8 and a t rex arms offset mount with a holsun 507 reddot andit is perfect for my needs now if i was a policeman or something like that i would be using something like a razor but i only use mine for selfdefense
Great review! New subscriber!
Wondering if the nightforce has been upgraded to go since they changed the reticle and size of center red dot in 2021?
Thanks 👍🏻🇺🇸
It's definitely better now on the atacr and the DMX reticle
“I work out.” 😆
The center dot on the ATACR is NOT 6MOA, just FYI.
Yes, I know. I misspoke and in the description of the video I have the correct sizes.
Good video......i have the vortex strike eagle(gen2) 1-8 with bdc3 reticle and the eye box isn't the best. Even on 1 power you can only have the stock out 2 clicks before you see scope shadow. Stock has to be all the way in when magnified. Im a vortex fanboy but I won't be getting no more of the strike eagle scopes only the razor and up for now on.
Any hands on with the Viper PST gen II 1-6?
Nope
I have a gen 2 razor on my 14.5 and love it. Have it sitting in a geissele with reptilla mounted holosun. Question, if I wanted to upgrade to a better reticle for wind holds out to max distance at my range of 450, is the leupy or the 1-10 better. The 10 power seems distorted at time on videos without parallax adjustment, and the reticle seems too small at 1 power to be used without the power on. I like how the razor I can pick up and use the cross hairs without the dot on (my radian is my hd and do all rifle.) Is the leupold worth the upgrade, or the gen 3? Really trying to stretch the legs of the radian with 77g, wind is a bitch as you know, and having holds would be helpful, but don’t want to loose that razor cross hair pick up/point and shoot in a HD role. Feel like the leupold might be better. Thank you!
I like the 1-10 but you're right at distance it can be hard to get it to be clear on days or locations I need more parallax adjustment. The reticle I have no issues with.
I'm looking for a do it all rifle build optic. I am starting with bcm 14.5 MCMR upper and I want something that can shoot from 0 to up to 600 yards. I already have a Trijicon accupoint 1-4 which is great until 300 yards ( no bdc) and a primary arms 1-8 platnum (heavy and huge). Those 2 optics are good but not ideal. I'm not running any supressors( illinois sucks) but I am running nvgs and an IR laser (cuz some freedom) . I'm meaning towards the mark 6 or the razor 1-6. Which would you give the edge, or is there another one I'm missing like the elcan spectre 1-4
So I'm a huge fan of both the razor and the mk6 but the mk6 has a slightly better reticle options for holds. The elcan has terrible eye relief and sits too low for lasers. I'll be up there in Illinois this summer so check out the training schedule.
how would you address passive night vision work but also having a need for magnification?
You can use the scope for passive shooting.
any expierence with the Eotech Vudu 1-6 or 1-8?
Just briefly. They aren't daylight bright enough for my liking.
How bad are BDCs in practice? It's not like people will be at the exact BDC distances, in theory. On the flip side, a friend of mine did a tour in Iraq and didn't have to take shots beyond 150 yards with his ACOG.
They aren't horrible but they aren't exact. Mils help way more. That's your friends experience and is a sample size of 1. There are hundreds of mid range engagements in both OIF/OEF.
Kinetic Consulting fair points. He doesn't often talk about his combat experience and I do my best not to ask. Obviously there are times to take longer shots. It sounds like his area didn't have a lot of open areas. My own urban area rarely has more than 75 yards unobstructed.
I’ve heard that LPVOs don’t work under NODS. Would like to hear your thoughts on that
That isn't true. They can definitely work. I have a little video on Instagram about it. I'll be making a more in depth video for UA-cam in the future.
@@KineticConsultingCurious myself and couldn't find your Instagram video on it. I would assume the LPVO would have to have a NV illumination setting which the razor III 1-10 does not.
Have you got around to making an indepth UA-cam vid on this? Thanks
@@OnMyGrizzle it's one of the search it in my blog on my website. I haven't made the more in depth videos yet.
First I gotta turn my volume down because of that "music" then I have to turn it back so I can actually hear his low volume presentation. But good information never the less.
On your razor 1-10 I didn’t see any mill dots or distance markers on the reticle like you said you prefer. Does it actually have them and your camera just didn’t pick them up in the video?
Dustin Hankins being first focal plane The mils/reticle virtually disappear on 1x, when you zoom in they show up, watch the recent 9hole review on it
surprised more ppl dont get into the Vortex PST2....great glass...600-700 bucks. super bright red dot. eye box is massive...just wish they made it in a 1-8. i fuckin love it. almost razor level but alot cheaper.
Nice video man, good content.
Never heard of zeroing a magnifier? You can center the dot, but the magnifier never changed my POI.
Yes you have to zero your optic then, put the magnifier on and check zero. If there is a poi shift then use the 2 adjustments on the magnifier. Some cheap magnifiers don't have adjustments
My G33 doesn’t require zero, I can crank the adjustment all the way to one end and still get the same POI.
Thanks for the video. Good stuff. How’s the eye box on the NX8?
It's a good eye box.
For your 1-10 with the off set red dot are you leaving the vortex on a magnified setting and using the red dot as a primary for closer up shots?
What’s your opinion on the elcan dr? Thanks
Used an elcan for a while and liked it a lot but I personally feel that they are out dated do to the low nature of their mount and LPVOs with more magnification
Kinetic Consulting tha is for the reply
Thanks *
I’m new to LPVO’s and was curious if you have any thoughts on the Swampfox Arrowhead LPVO. Thanks!
No clue.
What do you think about the Army’s new LPVO the New sig tango6t?
Haven't tried one
I love my NX8 (def cannot wait to get a gen III 1-10) but for the size is great. Also HATE the center at 8X... great for PID but bad if you dial... if you hold that's the only way to see your hits cause it's YUUUGEEEE haha
I love my Gen III 1-10... its mind-blowing good.
I'd love to know how in the hell you got one. Been waiting for the pleeb release...still waiting.
@@hajduk_lives I was able to work through a few contacts to find one.
In stock at Gunfightersupply.com
@@3gunAMax Jah, been waiting for SCALARWORKS to get their bundles up and running so I could save myself some cash. Guess I'll just keep waiting.
ambluemax Yeah, listed at $2,900 too
Great information. Thanks
What is your thought of the Schmidt & Bender PMII 1-8x24 DualCC?
And it vs. Vortex Razor 1-10?
Haven't used one so I can't say
What offset red dots do you use and why? RLTW!
CZ Bren 2 7x62.39 16.5 inch carbine leupold mark 6? or Vortex razor gen 3? help!
Never used a bren, so it's up to you
what length rifle/pistol do you have that Razor 1-10 on? Thanks, good video!!
12.5
Thoughts on mounting a rmr on top of the mount for passive nod use/off position stuff?
You definitely can and it would work great
The trick is a good mount to do that. There are not many.
ambluemax reptiliacorp.com/product/rof-90-for-geissele-34mm-super-precision-mount-trijicon-rmr/
Why do you have your optic so high? To shoot with NV?
For night vision as well as head position
Thnx for video. Have u tried Swarovski Z8i?
Nope. Otherwise it would be in this video lol
@@KineticConsulting It's a pity - it is #1 in Europe.
@@arseniydoe4578 I'm sure I'll have one eventually. Just don't have enough rifles for it.
What height mounts are you using on most of these? Looks like 1.93? Thoughts on 1.5 vs. 1.93?
Mostly 1.93 on my LPVOs. I'm making a video on the 1.5 vs 1.93 so stay tuned.
I think you should reconsider bdc's with the idea of seancing them into your bullet/velocity/atmospheric data. Hear me out: I'll be referring to an ACOG reticle just because everyone is familiar with it. Imagine we have an ACOG reticle. That BDC was designed with m855 (62 gr, low BC, 2970 fps, standard temp/pressure) in mind, but we want to shoot 77smk out of a 10.3 (77gr, .3xx BC, ~2400 FPS, winter in Afghanistan [30 degrees, 30.00inHh]). Big difference (keep in mind throughout this how MASSIVE the difference is), but we can work it out to where the BDC still has utility
I want to make the BDC have utility because if the BDC has utility, since the rapid range finding feature still works, then the BDC will be faster than a mil reticle (because a mil reticle generally has shitty rapid range finding features). Granted, it is assuming we can see the target broadside shoulder to shoulder, which I admit is a stretch in a gunfight. That being said, it still is powerful to be able to immediately associate a stadia with a distance, which isn't as intuitive with a mil reticle.
I work utility into a BDC with different loads by first looking up the manufacturer measurements for the BDC. Trijicon says the ACOG assumes 19.2 minutes of drop at 600m from an 100m zero. In reality for a 600m shot, our 77smk out of the 10.3 will need 7.5 mils (25.9 moa) IF we zero at 100m.
Let's look at what happens if we zero our 100m hash at 225m. From a 225m zero, a 600m shot will need 22.3 moa. That's only 3 moa off from the bdc. Yes, that's 18 entire inches. But if you don't have rangefinder on your gun it's not like you'll know the dude is exactly 600m away. Without rangefinding, either with the reticle or with a laser, any holdover you assume you'll need is just a guess until you fire a shot and get some data. A ~565m shot will require 19.3 moa. Basically, that 600m line, with a 225m zero now represents a 565m shot. I personally can't eyeball the difference between 565m and 600m, so at that distance it's a guess anyways. Regardless, aiming at the name tape level will still hit a man on a knee.
The 500m line becomes 480m. The 400m line is still 400m. The 300m line is now 330m. From the tip of the chevron, you have a +- 5 inch max point blank out to 265m. It's not perfect, but an optic like the atacr 1-8 or the vortex 1-10 doesn't even have adjustable parallax... precision is already neutered right there. Might as well go with a rangefinding bdc so snap/reflexive shots are a little quicker... have a good body position, observe splash or trace, adjust fire. I used a really extreme difference to make my point. Sometimes big differences work out better ie 77smk lines up pretty good with 175smk, which makes sense considering the bc/velocity differences.
Gave a thorough response because I appreciate your videos. Pushed me over the edge to buy some nvg's.
Just say no to MOA and use milliradians: it is a metric world.
Any thoughts on the Vortex PST Gen2? The poor man's Razor, lol.
I don't have one.
Big help I was gonna but the strike eagle but if the eye relief is shit I’ll get the razor
It's not the eye relief itself on the SE vs Razor. The Razor has vastly superior glass as well as renowned durability. Get the Razor for sure.
Have you played with the accupower bdc reticle? I know u said u didn't prefer them but it has a true 1 moa dot
I haven't tried it
Can anyone tell me where I can find Mark6
What is your opinion on the swampfox arrowhead 1-8x and 1-10x?
Haven't used it.
Anything on the new vudu 1-8 SFP?
Every vudu I've looked through had bad eye relief and aren't daylight bright. The new ones may be different.
What about the vortex viper pst
Your videos are great 👍🏼
3-Gunners have been saying this same thing for the last couple of years...
Night Force groupies are not going to be happy lol.
Nightforce is my preferred optic, and this gentleman sharing his opinion isn't rocking the boat in any way. I enjoyed his video and hearing what he thinks.
Nightforce ATACR F1 has a .35 mil center dot. In a reticle that is in the measurement of mils, moa doesn’t mean shit. This optic blows all those others out of the water. Light transmission and class clarity are among the best in this optic. Also, tracking plays a big part in optic quality. Nightforce dominates this in spades. Vortex has had their fair share of tracking issues. Leopold is nice but for that money I’d rather go Kahles or S&B. Other than that great info man. Also, for all the NVG shooting I’m sure you do, having that offset red dot is a must when using a LPVO. However, for this I think the red dot/magnifier is king.
wait, you're in florida?
Where does the eotech 1x8 stand
I don't like it's reticle enough to keep one. Also it's illumination wasn't bright enough Imo. They may have fixed it in the last year but I don't know
Everyone I've spoken to has the same response as Jon. Everyone said it was dogshit basically, but no one I know has tried the updated version bc the prior gen was so bad lol. Basically look elsewhere. Primary Arms PLx Compact 1-8 coming out soon, it's 16.95oz with a 121ft FOV @ 100 yards. NightForce ATACR 1-8 DMx reticle. Vortex Razor 1-6 or 1-10. That's the pool I'd pick from....
I just think second focal plane is better in LPVO than the first focal plane my dot will always be the same no matter what!🤯🔫💣
I had an extensive conversation with the nightforce reps and told them to their face they needed to update the reticle for the NX8 like they did for the ATACR DMX. They looked at each other and shrugged saying they were having internal discussions about it saying they would do it if people wanted it. I chuckled and said. “Yeah I’m telling you now.” So they know about it, but still remains to be seen if they will actually do it.
Also look for the Tano ATACR to hit the commercial market sooner rather than later ;)
Mk6 Gang!
Got mine on the way ! Can’t wait to use it!!
@@Redeemed_Team good choice!
do you recommend ffp over sfp on a 1-6? how often are you using the scope between min and max magnification?
I use 2 and 3X all the time. Its a personal preference thing though.
any range that you'd be using less than 6 power on would likely not benefit from having a FFP reticle imo
there's a reason most 1-6s are SFP and 1-8/1-10 are FFP
🔥
FP quadzilla 👍🏻
Very disappointed as I totally thought you knew what you were talking about. The Nightforce NX8 center dot is 1.25 MOA and since it's a first focal plane reticle the dot is 1.25 MOA throughout the magnification range. I have this scope and took it through an SPR class. There's no doubt that I wish the center dot was smaller, but 6 MOA...that's comical. I don't see how a proficient shooter could make such a big mistake. It would be very easy to look at a target at any distance through the NX8 and see that the center dot is nowhere near 6 MOA lol. Below is a link to NF where they specify the dimensions of the reticle. I too wish you knew someone at NF so they could have corrected you before you gave your audience this false information. I think it's only fair that you correct it with an annotation so that you don't scare off potential NF customers.
www.nightforceoptics.com/technology/reticles/fc-moa
Thanks for letting me know. The tech specs say 1.25 but when I look at a 6 in circle at 100 yds the center dot covers the entire 6 in. I'll double check this next time I'm at the range and take some pictures. Please do so too, as I only have 1 NX8. Mine could possibly be a mistake from when they initially came out. Thanks
@@KineticConsulting Yeah something is definitely wrong with your scope. In the SPR classes we were shooting 2 MOA targets and the dot was definitely smaller then 2 MOA.
i want one but i cant find one LOL
Why MIL vs MOA?
Mainly preference. Doesn't matter otherwise. It's just a measuring system
@@KineticConsulting it does matter to me at least because most MRAD scopes have much finer adjustments compared to MOA scopes that are a quarter MOA at a time. That's not at all precise.
Your vibrator is causing a hum in the background booboo
Mmm, ghetto noise. Fail.
thumbs down for the home boy shit sounds on a gun site .. right off it means its a crap no info low grade video site covering something up ..shame