you're sharpening too much
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- Опубліковано 3 лип 2024
- Check out @katzmosestools Sharpening Video here: • The Most Comprehensive...
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Check out my amazon storefront for tools I commonly use in my shop: www.amazon.com/shop/woodcraft...
60,000g Honing Compound: amzn.to/3MbEzuC
(unfortunately the compound is currently sold out on Amazon. The smaller version that also performed well can be found here: amzn.to/3zCN2zv). Thanks!
Shapton 4000: amzn.to/3jt7RsO
Shapton 8000: amzn.to/40k1Ejv
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Below are links of products I use and recommend wholeheartedly. If you're in the market for any of these products, please consider using the (affiliate) links below.
My favorite [small] woodworking tools:
General Saw - Japanese Gyokucho Pull Saw - amzn.to/3x30bhW
Dovetail Saw - Japanese Dozuki Pull Saw - amzn.to/3v5imlL
Japanese Plane- Kanna (65mm)- amzn.to/3irvyi0
Japanese Plane - Kanna (40mm) - amzn.to/3w3WPLA
Chisel hammer - Japanese Chisel Hammer- amzn.to/3z8TzjT
Mallet - Wood Is Good Mallet - amzn.to/34ViZUq
Square Ruler - Starrett Combination Square (steel head) - amzn.to/3imGX2N
Marking Ruler - Incra Precision T-Rule - amzn.to/3cnrQ59
Caliper - iGaging 6" Caliper - amzn.to/3pxRyJM
Mechanical Pencil - Rotring 600 - amzn.to/3x6jJ53 - Навчання та стиль
Check out @katzmosestools Sharpening Video here: ua-cam.com/video/GBjiEmN5HzA/v-deo.html
I've been cutting woodworking channel subscriptions recently--too many "influencers" hawking wares nobody really needs--but this one is worth a new subscription. Thanks, Suman!
Great video. This reminds me of the story about the two lumberjacks that had a competition to see who can chop down a tree the fastest. The young lumberjack went away swinging, but noticed that every 15 minutes, the old lumberjack would take a break. In the end, the old lumberjack chopped down their tree first. The younger lumberjack was baffled and asked the older lumberjack how it was possible considering he took regular breaks. The old lumberjack responded by saying, those weren't breaks, he was sharpening his axe.
„if I had six hours to chop down a tree, I’d spend the first four hours sharpening the axe“
- A Lincoln.
I just did a job debarking about 9 elm trees for a zoo exhibit - I freehand sharpened the drawknife, axe, and bark spud about every half hour or hour - just a quick touchup, and it workout out really well. Nice little break too helps a fellow out too.
Love the science behind this video. Going from 1000 grit to strop to sharp is mind blowing. This will change the way a lot of us sharpen. Nice job and thanks for contributing to the overall body of knowledge on the subjest of sharpenng.
Thank you too Mike. Loves me some taytools
Thanks Mike! Loved seeing your jig at work.
Nice work man. we should collab some time on a test!
Thanks dude. I’m all sharpened out for a bit but you have a lot of old plane irons right? Would be cool to see a comparison or old steel vs new steel to make an objective argument for why old Stanley users should probably swab blades.
Great info. Really enjoyed it! Paul Sellers said the same thing. He sharpens to 1200 grit diamond stone then strops. Thanks
I am really starting to develop an appreciation for the science behind woodworking. My grandfather always did the old "you just know when it is right" methods, and it is interesting to see the knowledge his generation had (although they may not have understood the actual science behind the knowledge) summed up in real numbers.
Thanks Corey. That is exactly the direction for this channel going forward - all the things we learned or believed to be true but TESTED. If the data is contradictory or supportive, it'll be valuable information to know either way.
A fun test is to sharpen a plane blade with the coarsest stone you have and then plane with it. Go to the next stone and repeat and repeat. I did this with a bunch of woodworkers and the results surprised everyone.
and the results........?
@@cabletie69 everyone who used the coarsely sharpened blades ears grew 2cm in length
@@whirled_peas sweet
@@cabletie69 we do not need to go as fine sharpening for most applications. Hope you run the test.
@@whirled_peas gee mine only grew .5cm...............
No surprise that diamond stones and a strop is what Paul Sellers uses.
Came here from Jonathan's video. You guys have reinforced my thoughts, that, while it's not a sin, there's no inherent virtue in working harder or spending more time or money than you have to. Thanks very much for these videos, and especially for the comparison of the different steels. Clearly and concisely presented, informational and entertaining. In the words of Ahnold (without any threat implied), "I'll be back."
Great work. Illuminating!
Great work! Appreciate all the high quality content!
Love these tests you're doing. Great content, great contribution, many thanks!
Between this and your stropping video, you are bang on, sir. Best videos on sharpening on youtube, and it has confirmed some suspicions I've had for awhile. You have changed my thinking on sharpening for sure!
I'm new to wood working and sharpening I found to be WAY to complicated and started to get frustrated. Some one who has done fine wood working for 20+ years told me he only uses a 2 sided Norton oil stone and strop.
Once I stopped over thinking the sharpening BS that is al over YT and just got an old oil stone and simplified it all, sharpening became easy, quick and not frustrating. I now get beautiful shavings and nice glassy smooth surfaces.
What you and the other gentleman have in common is that you both actually make things with wood. Paul Sellers, a professional cabinetmaker for over half a century, gives similar advice, even though he likes diamonds. People who can’t make anything are the ones obsessed with sharpening systems, just like guys who can’t build any muscle are the ones who buy and read about all the bodybuilding supplements. Paul observed that wood itself is an abrasive and imparts whatever its level of abrasiveness is to the blade after two passes. So all the time and expense of honing a subatomic edge to the reflectance of the James Webb space telescope mirror is a waste. I’ve got a double sided Norton and a strop and hone a single convex bevel like the old timers. No guides, no secondary and tertiary bevels, no Shapton glass stones, no Tormek grinder.
Awesome video as always, Suman. Using data to challenge what we’ve always been told is extremely valuable. I appreciate your objective approach to the topics I love most! 💜
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Good information! Thanks!!
This is absolutely fantastic content. Thank you for sharing this info!
Great video! And glad that the strop got it's honor restored 😅 I'm using a method like JKM's but with three diamond stones and a hard leather strop. I strop occasionally while working, but only a very few times, like three or five to just clean up the edge. That can keep me going for while before I need to sharpen properly. Or I can hit the 1200 grit diamond stone and then strop to keep working.
Just discovered you channel because of Jonathan. I am SOOOOO thankful for that scientific / measurable approach. And I love how you ended the video with a wink of humor!! great job man
Thank you! Soo happy to have you here!
Great video series. Results seem to support the Trend sharpening kit that I recently purchased... 🙂
I like the "tested" vibe, and I do 600 grit, 1200 grit then waxy green stuff on a bit of sofa suede I glued to some plywood.
It workds or me, and the biggest obstackle I used to have was not being able to sharpen.
I wish people would stop shaving body hair with tools. It's silly.
Great video!
I like these deep dives into things with numbers you discuss in a good way.
Thanks Matthys! They're gonna keep coming at ya.
@@WoodcraftBySuman as Bill and Ted would say, "Excellent!"
Nice video Suman. I really appreciate the effort to do these tests and provide a quantitative analysis vs the standard qualitative analysis (eg, it feels sharper, it seems to ...) that too many videos provide. Keep up the great work!👍
My new motto is: “talk is cheap, let’s throw some numbers at it”. Glad you liked the video. Thanks!
The best method is the one you do frequently and actually do.
It's interesting to note that when tested on straight razors, the shapton 16K will chip and worsen the edge if used more than a few strokes. I can only imagine the 30K does about the same. At least it's clear there is a strong diminishing return. Maybe the grit used by shaptron is simply incapable of going much finer than ~10K?
Sometimes in woodworking you want to go through the gritts not because you want the edge sharper but because you want it nice clean and shiny. This makes the cuts in the wood also clean and shiny
Great work! 👏
Neat, the stropping part reminded me of the unicorn method but with a regular strop instead of a buffing wheel
Very interesting. I use 250, 400 and strop as inspired by Paul Sellers. I might move to 1000 grit too based on your tests.
The Shapton pro stones are better then the glass ones.
The 30k grit is a polish stone but it’s not going to show any difference on the steels you tested.
I use mine rarely.
I think the last time was on very expensive hair scissors.
I found you through JKM but will definitely be sticking around, great video and happily you've come to the same conclusion I had :) I stopped using my 6000g water stone a few years ago and haven't noticed any change in use, I now use diamond stones up to 1200g then strop.
PMV-11 is surely not manufactured by Lee Valley, quality tool steels originate from only a few suppliers globally, mainly Sandvik and Voestalpine. PMV-11 is most likely a vanadium based powder metallurgy tool steel, probably from Boehler-Uddeholm/voestalpine; likely a variant of Uddeholms Vandis superclean family. Uddeholm ranks at the top as far as tool steel quality goes. Powder metals have higher homogeneity at the microscopic level, which gives them improved toughness/chipping resistance compared to wrought steels. "Superclean" grades of steel have extra processing steps to remove microscopic contaminants, which again increases toughness and chipping. PMV-11 is surely a superior choice! Your videos are excellent, thank you for producing such high quality, robust experiments and not shying away from the cost and time investment of true rigor in your experiments!
New to the channel, great test and surprising results
At work we polish metal samples, we use 1min on each 240,400,600,1200 SiC, and finish with colloidal silica (0.05 micro) for 2min and bring the samples (can be up to 6 2in diameter hard nickel or high alloy steel to a mirror finish, good for microscope evaluation past 500x
excellent video suman!
Thanks dude! I see a slightly less dull chisel in your future.
I have been using the green compound to strop the edge for many. Years . It works to hone the edge on a chisel both bench and carving as you use it . MDF works well for a flat serface to strop on in a pinch . The yellow compound you can get from Flexcut works even better
Stropping will round the sides (and leading edge due to the pillow effect), even softer stones will. The only way to keep your back truly flat in a way that can be repeatable, is to get it flat with oils stones (start with water stones, lower grits tend to be much more rigid) because oil stones have no give. In this case, the challenge is to keep the leading edge flat with the rest of the back - any lift or strange actions will screw this one up. If you can keep disciplined, sharpening should literally be 10 seconds. Two passed on a black ark to raise a bit and two more to pull it off.
I think the most important method not mentioned here is the CBN wheel and rest. They get the blade ready quickly for whatever sharpening method you use after, and the whole process becomes very quick.
Thanks Suman for the objective information so we don't have to waste time on steps that don't make any difference.
One thing that is not covered in jumping from a coarse grit to stropping is all gouges/grooves left by the coarser grit. That produces a very fine sawtooth on the edge. Maybe ok for chiseling and planning, but the carving guys are likely to not like it. A shearing cut in carving pulls the length of the edge across the wood. The teeth might grab and snag on the wood. Likely 4K stones are fine enough to work for carving with stopping, but be sure to work the steel on each grit to remove the prior grit's gouges. I try to crisscross the sharpening between each grit to help visualize the gouges are removed. Likely need to finish with the stone in the longitudinal direction.
Thank you. It’s so nice to know I don’t have to spend a lot of money to have super sharp tools.
Thanks for making such a great video. Subscribed
Thank you...I appreciate the thorough and quantitative approach. Can you recommend a specific hard leather strop? Most of the strops on Amazon don't specify if the leather is hard or soft.... Thank you!
Nice video, loved the deep-dive too. Subbed!
How do you know the hardness of the steel? Most manufacturers don't list that.
Thank you for doing this video and the other one teaming up with Katz-Moses.
Whose strop do you like. I want a wide one....
The revelation i could just be going to 1000 grit then strop! Wow fantastic video Suman
It was a painful discovery to have to admit all the stuff we had been doing before was just going through with the motions. haha. Thanks for watching bud
Interesting, I just by the $10 harbour freight chisel and throw away. After this I can maybe buy a good chisel and just learn to sharpen them. Thanks my bearded friend.
I don’t like my PMV-11 blade it’s the worst to sharpen by far I stoped stropping it because it rounds over and feels fuller after stropping. I have a HNT Gordon plane I think it’s cryogenic Steele I haven’t used it enough to know how easily/difficult it is to sharpen but it’s holding up well I’ve dished 3 or 4 seats with it without touch up.
What’s ironic is that if you watch hand tool woodworker channels or older videos, they don’t go beyond 1,000 grit and use a strop.
Tried and true method for probably centuries and will get results that are acceptable.
Agreed. I thought for sure, modern ceramic stones would crush it. Nope.
Have you tried the DMT extra-extra fine 8000 grit diamond stone? I have the TREND 300/1000 diamond stone and was thinking of finishing with the DMT 8000. After the blade dulls, I could resharpen with the stones or strop once or twice and then resharpen with the stones.
I haven’t tried it but general rule of thumb with DMT has been 1000-2000 range is where they start to tap out bc it’s hard to embed diamonds that small onto a piece of steel and adhere it well enough while keeping flatness. Generally for higher grit, I think you’ll really like the shape on ceramics
This video has given me the opposite of buyer’s remorse for the Axminster sharpening station I picked up a couple years ago. 400/1000 grit diamond stone plus leather strop all one one base. Now I just need to learn better technique.
What can I say? Outstanding video!
Sharp is as your output. So, if you are knocking our a mortise the mortice must be ready to accept the tenon. Hidden inside cheeks, glued and so on. Timber finish - paint being primer, undercoat and topcoat. Hopefully, depending upon the ‘painter’ a lasting job being functionality. Tung oil, acceptable finish for the client. So, my - and thousands and thousands - really old and some new (ish) tools do the job they were made for regarding sharpeness. Me - Norton medium, fine clean (strop) the back on leather and off...
Great video, and you just earned another subscriber!
Welcome aboard!
Great video 👍
Although, as someone who recently 'caved' and bought the Trend 300/1000 grit diamond plate and Shapton 16k glass stone, I'm a little bummed about the results shown here 😕
It looks like everything so far has been focused on hollow (concave) or flat grind with a micro bevel off of stones and/or strop - which I totally get. I am curious, though... any chance of you doing *another* test (I know, I know) at some point, comparing/contrasting the performance of a convex or rounded bevel like what one sees from some of the British free-hand sharpeners e.g. Paul Sellers or Richard Maguire, or via the 'unicorn' method? If the premise is that 'sharp' is a zero-radius intersection between two planes (to quote Chris Schwarz), and that a steeper bevel angle with more material backing up the edge tends to support staying acceptably/workable sharp longer... I'd be interested in seeing a test along those lines. When/if you get bored and need another project 😜
I’m in the same boat. Just purchased the same system based on Cosman’s videos. It does offer great results though, but the mess of those stones is frustrating.
@@hibcha1 probably wasn't as much of a shock for me... I've tinkered with a number of different systems over the years - 'scary sharp' back when we had to use actual sand paper, instead of these fancy PSA films, a Norton 1000/4000 combo water stone, and for the last year or two, DMT diamond plates (coarse, fine, extra fine and extra-extra fine). The Trend 300/1000 plate kind of surprised me at how much more aggressive it is compared to the DMT plates... but then again, it's still relatively new. Hopefully it'll mellow a bit as it gets broken in. The 16k Shapton does seem to work as expected... but I bought it with the intention of *not* having to strop.
They all make a mess if you use some sort of liquid to lubricate the surface and flush away the swarf to avoid clogging. I have a kind of plastic cookie sheet, for lack of a better term, from Peachtree woodworking that I got back when I got the Norton combon stone. Does a pretty good job of containing the mess, and keeping it off the bench top. Others get a rubber floor mat from the automotive aisle to do the same thing. HTH 👍
I use the convex macro camber method used by Paul Sellers. It is superior to the secondary bevel method because it produces as fine a cutting edge but stronger and slightly more lasting and you never need to use a grinder to re establish the main bevel as the secondary creeps longer. This was the method used in the old days (examine blades from 100 year old tools and you’ll see) by woodworkers who actually grew up using hand tools for a living. Also, this video vindicates what Sellers has been saying, that 1200 grit followed by strop is all you need and anything beyond that is a waste of time and money. Of course, he actually made furniture for a living for half a century. People who obsess over different sharpening methods to find the one that produces a sub-atomic edges and turn sharpening into a hobby are those who can’t really make anything with hand tools but fantasize about it by surrounding themselves with expensive stones and Lie Nielsen planes. It’s kind of like ordinary guys who fantasize about building Mr Olympia muscles, but who don’t have the knowledge or the discipline to learn to do so, spending all their money and time on supplements to pretend they are bodybuilders. As Paul Sellers advises aspiring woodworkers, just sharpen and get on with life.
I picked up a 30k Shapton as part of CL bundle of stuff. Got it virtually for free, almost never use it. But I’m going to do a side by side with 10k for laughs
*Very* interesting about the strop sharpening the inside of the scratches(!)
I wonder how well the 1000 grit + strolled edge would hold up to one without the scratch pattern? My thought had always been that the scratches acted as stress concentrators, so the edge would break down more quickly. Thinking about that though, I think that might only be the case for a non-ductile material. Have you done (or are you going to do) tests to see if there’s a difference in how long edges hold up with both approaches?
I didn’t share data explicitly as I didn’t want to get into the weeds but stropped edge holds up just as well as the stone sharpened edge. Modern steels are just amazing. I think we worry more than we need to.
@@WoodcraftBySuman Great to know! What you and JKM have done has saved me probably dozens of hours in the years or come, and likely a lot of frustration with dull blades. I have all kinds of sharpening methods, some expensive and rarely used (like my Tormek). From what you’ve shared, all I need to use is my Tormek and a strop. (The Tormek has a stropping wheel too, but a handheld leather one would keep me from having to set up the Tormek just to touch up edges 👍😁)
After you establish the 30 degree bevel on the grinder, you only show sharpening on the diamond stone along that same30 degree bevel. Do you create a secondary bevel or do you just maintain a single bevel?
With hollow grind method, there is no need for secondary bevel. It’ll continue to grind away at 30d and because the amount of material to be removed is so small, it basically function similar to a secondary bevel
Great
Excellent work. This Is why Tormeks are so good. 'Only' 1000 grit then a hone but produces razor sharp edges. Basically stop wasting money on multiple stones and just buy a Tormek. It's cheaper in the long run!
Wood carvers would disagree on the re hone. Mostly, carving tools are honed and never put on stones.
Thanks for doing, very interesting. Two things jump out at me:
(1) The edges finished on high grit stones are NOT more fragile than lower grit stones when used in a fixed geometry tool like a hand plane (might be different for a kitchen knives or razors)
(2) The discrepancy between your test and the one you did with Jonathan regarding water stones is very interesting, since you got such sharper results. The fundamental difference is that you free-hand sharpened, whereas Jonathan used a jig. Could it be that free-handing it is indeed sharper? Maybe using a jig doesn't allow for optimal pressure right on the cutting edge, or maybe it needs a lot more passes to get as sharp.
Based on your work work, I would say that for plane blades (and probably chisels), stropping is not necessary, and maybe even detrimental since the edge is so fragile. A 6000+ grit finishing stone should meet basic requirements (even 4000 seems good enough), and going much higher doesn't reduce durability.
Jonathan’s video involved a jig and a set number of strokes. My scenario was optimized for sharpness and not set on stroke count. Also I would tell him that I’m the better sharpener 🤣
You filled in some blanks for me. Thanks!
Glad it was helpful!
Well, I went and googled 60,000 grit stropping compounds, and came up with Taylor Toolworks/Taytools. They have a green compound that is listed at 60,000 grit. I am not sure that the green stuff you show is the same thing. I ordered some....
The Taylor tool version is the same and is effective but much smaller. It should work well.
Okay, that explains a little. I did watch one video on stropping your straight razors, even if I haven't shaved in 20 plus years. Interesting that they do use a canvas on the back side of the leather strop. Might have to find some of that, or just some good old cotton canvas....
weird question, but is there a "correct" way to apply hard polishing compound? i find mine often flakes off and wont really stay in the leather. i usually have to massage it in with some oil.
is that just bad compound, or am i doing something wrong? :D
Some compounds don’t seem to load well. That’s potentially an issue. But for the most part, you need far less compound on the leather than most of us would think. I be heard good results with a light amount of oil but have never done it myself.
I watched this after Katzs' video of your collaboration, I would have loved for this video to be a little longer with some of the lapping results. Still, I enjoyed it enough to take the time to comment :)
The Amazon link for the compound does not seem to be the same compound in the video?
Yea unfortunately they all sold out. Sorry about that.
Are you using a 8 inch or 6 inch wheel on your grinder?
Hi Jim - 8" slow speed grinder (1750rpm) on a 180g CBN wheel with oneway jig
I am surprised that they don't give the rockwell hardness of the blades. The powder metal tools are very common in woodturning, most notably V10 from Doug Thompson. I would guess that PM stands for powder metal, and the V11 would mean 11% vanadium. There were some V15 tools out but they were generally considered to be too brittle. I have to now go look and see if Doug lists his rockwell hardness.... Some one at Sawmill Creek said that the V was for Veritas, so don't really know.
Doug's tools are 62 to 64 Rockwell hardness. A bit harder than the others you tested. I am surprised that no one has used the M42HSS for planes and chisels. I did take one skew chisel blank and make a bench chisel out of it and it is very good. I am not enough of a flat work expert to tell if it is better than the more common metals used for chisels and plane irons.
Yea Lee valley does not explicitly advertise the hardness and some Google search showed inconsistent hardness numbers for PM-V11. I didn’t want to speculate and get into a whole tangent discussion.
The specs on the link to that stropping compound say it is 600 grit. I have some red 'jeweler's rouge' which is supposed to be in the 30,000 grit range. Frustrating that color of stropping compounds is not really linked to any specific grit range. Any other sources other than Amazon?
@@robohippy the linked green compound should be 60k. The Amazon listing description is incorrect.
I did a search for it on google. It is a product carried by Shop Fox, which is a subsidiary of Grizzly tools. I had a friend who got a Shop Fox lathe, and he ended up sending it back since there was so many things just totally wrong with it. They did list a phone number, and I will try it. Worst thing with calling them would be that I get a tech that has to read from a manual to answer questions. Both Amazon and Shop Fox listed the same grits for the different colored sticks. The coarse one was some thing like 60 to 80 grit, which I doubt. I did get some black stuff from the local big box store and it is supposed to be 800 grit..... Will let you know what I find out.
Nice work. Thanks for the testing! The link to the honing compound links to a Black (color says grey) Buffing Compound. Is that right or should it link to the green one?
Thanks! I thought it was linked to the green. Will check again. Select the green one pls.
Soooo… I am wondering what angle holds an edge the longest and if it even matters. Your testing so far shows we lose that super keen edge quickly. Any chance of rolling through a few test to see if 25, 30 or 35 degress makes a difference before resharpening?
Great question. We did that test with Jonathan Katz-Moses on his video. Virtually no difference between 25 and 30 degrees. Did not test 35d.
Maybe I'm too anal, but I would like a short video on your details for stropping. The rounding over is a concern for me and why I have avoided it. And discuss why the MDF did not work for stropping.
Do your chisels round over on the backside from stropping? That would seem to be a fairly serious issue since true chopping needs the back flat. That is why the steel rule trick is recommended against for mortising chisels in particular. Fine for Plane Irons since a lot people put a super-micro-bevel on the back anyway.
To avoid having to deburr, Kill the edge when all done sharpening on the 30k, then feather in both sides alternating sides after each pass. If you don’t overdo it it won’t take much time but a few strokes on each side, but don’t overdo it or you will start creating a burr again
Yea that process was followed. 80s on the sharpness scale is beyond rediculously sharp. If there were any burrs remaining, it would show on the test.
Thanks Suman (and Jonathan). But I'm quite confused by the Amazon link you've both used to guide us to the green 60,000 grit stropping compound. At that link, I see several colors-but not green. And more confusingly, the link shows the title "black" compound... without any black compound as a choice. Can you help us out here?... is any green compound always, always the 60,000 grit you mention... or does the brand matter more and some other color at that specific ink is would be equivalent to the green compound you both find the most useful?
I just checked. Looks like it’s all sold out currently. There is another version by Taylor tools but I would wait for the Woodstock one to come back in stock
Hard truth coming in. most green compound are 3-8k corundum with mere green colored wax. The very best brand name buffing compounds used for mirror polishing steels are not finer than F2000(8k), since thats where the norm grating stops.
A good fast and cheap paste is Luxor orange.
the >50.000 grit refers strictly to chrome oxide pigment PG 17, which you can buy as loose powder or as paint, but it really has no use outside of straight razors.
I haven't watched the video yet but found this on my phone while watching the J-Kats video. 😁
I have not researched it yet, but what does this compare to the Japanese wood shaving competition on spruce? The Japanese seem to have a system of different stones for different metal and the “science” is a bit different? Are you guys able to get the same results with your methods?
Japanese wood shaving completion is with much softer wood. Modern steel as well Japanese blue/white steel are incredibly good at edge retention. My guess would be- the spruce would practically do nothing to dull the edge.
All the stropping with green chromium oxide did was aid in removing the burr quickly, doesn’t make it more “keen”, just burr removal. You should also try stripping after the 30k etc to test what that looks like and I have a feeling you will be very surprised
Great contents! Subscriber++
You forgot to do the conclusion edge retention study;
1,000g & buffed v 8,000g & buffed=. ???
(Although this partially explained in other vid from memory, this may be worth adding a short appendix), but good vid 👍
Hence; now that you have partially rounded the edge buffing on the strop, it is less effective to rebuff…etc
Or are we saying that science is showing us that there is no requirement to go above a 1,000g with a buff…..this would be where the vid leaves you…..
I like how people do a lot of things to test cut. Except cutting wood and measuring strength needed to pull. Not only sharpness affects a blade's efficiency.
A blade that’s at 80 is going to cut like it’s at 80 no matter how you sharpened to get it to that point. Actually measuring the forces it takes to pull a shaving at different sharpness is an idea I wanted to implement but it’s difficult to get consistent and reliable data. Will make a video if I feel like my measurements and setup are up to snuff to share that type of an experiment.
Suman, I love your approach and keeping cool while K-M hogged the camera on his version. It was his video but he truncated your comments when I wanted to hear from you. Glad I followed the link to your version and it is refreshing to find someone looking for the facts. I also like how you engage your stubborn side and ignore the facts.
JKM is a great friend. We have different production styles- he is more off the cuff and I am more scripted. So when you put the two of us together in front of a camera, I am guaranteed to come off as the reserved akward duck. Haha. And yup- old habits die hard. I’m still not stropping even though it works well.
I told Suman he could only use 50 words. Choose carefully my friend.
I had the same reaction, Ray. I wanted to say: "...Fer cryin' out loud give Suman chance to speak, Jonathan!" But on thinking about it, the partnership and the two-video approach worked just fine.. two quite different forms of excellent communication from two rather different and excellent woodworkers.
Thanks for this! I don't think I missed it so may I ask, _where_ did you learn about the 1000-grit diamond plate followed by stropping? Reason I ask is I've been advocating basically this method (not the same compound) since early 2016!
Thanks! Few places - comments from my last video, Jonathan swore by the method, as well as the owner of taylor toolworks. Genuinely thought it was bs until I saw the results for myself.
Paul Sellers
@@WoodcraftBySuman Well I'm glad to see I'm in such exalted company! Now the question is, who came up with it first? 🙂
P.S. I can understand the scepticism, I mean it _does_ fly in the face of so much convention doesn't it? And as I was explaining to someone (yesterday?) in one of the Facebook tool groups, I got a lot of pushback on this when I first starting recommending it on forums. The one I thought was most hilarious went something like, "1000 grit isn't fine enough to end on if you want to get really sharp", completely ignoring the effect of a loaded strop. I'm pretty sure this came from someone who didn't strop at all, or who only used bare leather or their palm [there's a long British tradition of stropping on the palm of the opposite hand].
@@jonathanlambeth3464 Paul Sellers??? The same Paul Sellers that doubled down in a Q&A that you _had_ to go through the full diamond progression? He's jumped on this bandwagon now has he?
@@tungsten_carbide He's definitely done recent-ish videos where he goes from like 200 to 400 to 1000 diamond plates and then to the strop. The most recent one I could find was from 2 years ago.
These results suggest that common beliefs about needing a mirror finish on the back of blade are wrong. The results here suggest that going beyond 4000 grit on the back likely has little effect. One question: You answered the question regarding PMV-11 being durable and sharp, but not whether it sharpens as easily as O1. Did you have any impressions in this regard?
Its really hard to objectively measure ease of sharpening. This is especially the case because I hollow grind my blades and am using ceramic stones. I will say, anecdotally, PMV-11 feels pretty easy to sharpen and feels on-par with O1.
@@WoodcraftBySuman That's a really good point. I don't hollow grind and, now that I think of it, when I compare O1 with A2, my most used O1 are thin, traditional blades and I believe the difference in blade thickness is the main effect. Indeed, sharpening an old O1 plane blade vs. a thick Clifton O1 (12 years old, so I think not cryotreated), is much easier. I suppose my fairest comparison is between an A2 and O1 chisel of comparable geometry and, for them, I do feel the O2 is faster and easier to sharpen. Actually, I abandoned the A2 chisels, but for a different reason. Thank you for your reply and for all of your testing work.
I love that you teamed up with JKM, and put him in his place! 😂 Now I don't know whether to strop or not anymore! Haha. I was fine going to 4000 grit, and will probably stick to that.
Haha thanks Aaron! I can tell you, while I am shocked how well stropping works, I’m not changing a thing about how I sharpen. Haha.
I'm curious about the honing compounds
Did you find that chromium oxides are better (vs let's say aluminium oxides) or that the specific one you linked to be better than other the chromium oxides commonly found ?
I'm asking this because I don't live in the US, as price differ vastly even on amazon depending on which region you order from I'm wondering if it's worth getting that specific brand for 10 times the price listed on the US amazon or I should just stick with my local brand I bought a few years ago
Without knowing your specific compound, I would say this: if you’re sharpening on lower grits and then stropping with the compound you have, are you getting the results you want? (Ie paper test or shaving test), if so- don’t change a thing. If not, I have confidence the recommended chromium oxide would be of benefit.
@@WoodcraftBySuman Okay, thanks a lot for your answer !
The obsession with sharpness is definitely a modern one, probably driven by a desire to sell extra sharpening gear we don't need.
Partially because there are a lot more options and methods for sharpening nowdays than before. Trust me, I’m not getting rich off of recommending $15 compound over the more expensive stones.
Thanks for this video. Some lessons I learned, the difference between A1 and PM-V11 steels is not worth paying for. Buy whichever is less expensive (all other qualitative factors being equal). Second, O1 steel may be softer, but it doesn't sharpen as well as A1 or PM-V11. This reminds me of the debate woodturners used to have over the advantages and disadvantages of high-carbon tool steel v. high-speed steel (then, M2, now something more exotic). Old-timers claimed that HSS never got as sharp as traditional high-carbon tool steel. They would use their M2 tools -- because the edge clearly lasted longer -- and then break out their old high-carbon tools to make the final finish cut. Yet, tests similar to these showed that high-carbon tools didn't get sharper, they just dulled more quickly.
So microscope images?
Ya think?
Ordered the shapton 16000 yesterday 😂
Don’t worry the 1000 grit diamond and the 16K shapton is still a great method. That’s what I found works best in my shop. It may not be as sharp as stoping, but it’s super fast and easy. Also, I he stone lasts forever.
I will use that 16k at 1st the do a quick strop when I need a refresh.
How high should you sharpen your woodworking tools?
*Wild snoop dog appears*
That would be a hella good collab 😂
No way you got this done 😂. Great job! Oh an first!
The hustle is real 😂
I hear you on stopping on leather rounding off your edges, and I think stropping on mdf would eliminate that problem. 🤔 so you could go from a 1000x or 1200x stone to honing compound on mdf to get great results.
Except that as they *also* proved (see JKM's video linked above), stropping on MDF turned out to be much less effective than hard leather.
@@Garryck-1 ah good to know! I haven’t gotten to the other video yet. Looks like I’m going to be learning lots today!
Yup- we tested and MDF didn’t work well. I had high hopes and while it did perform, it was nowhere as good as leather. I didn’t want to get into it on this video bc it felt a little out of scope for this topic. Thanks for watching
Those old curmudgeons that used a grinder, an oil stone and a strop were right after all. 😂
I think you need to take a hard look at your deburring process but just my $0.02
Dude discovers that 1000-to-stropping works well, but says he’ll continue using higher grit stones. Funny
Old habits die hard. Also I already have the stones lol
Your test is good but I can't trust a guy who stolen Veritas router plane design. I could trust your test if you comment without him and put Paul Sellers sharpening video link.
My data and results doesn’t require trust. You can recreate the tests, challenge my findings and I would welcome that with open arms.
Yeah ... liked and sub'd. $0.02 Cheers Suman. JKM got ya back.