you are clamping too long
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- Опубліковано 7 жов 2023
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I helped Scott test common wood joinery strength you can see here: • This Simple Joint is S...
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Great video!! Here's my theory. When the clamps were removed after 30 minutes, the glue hadn't cured enough to compensate for the release of pressure. The boards pulled apart just a little bit on their own and messed up the glue. When you just pushed the boards together and left them, there was no change after 30 minutes, so the joint was stronger. Maybe?
Was thinking the same thing
Hadn’t read your reply before my post, totally agree.
Agreed, to look at it another way, the clamps squeeze out far more glue than the "hand pressed" version, so when the pressure relaxes to "clampless", there is less glue in the joint than the hand pressed version, but a wider gap than the long-term clamped version.
Yep. My thought as well. Don't know for certain, but glad to be part of the majority consensus hah
Not even a question. The glue has not fully cured in less than 24 hours. It achieves a minimum working strength in 30 minutes.
I was a research engineer for 10 years designing and carrying out experiments, and a woodworker since before that. This is one of the most complete and robust scientific woodworking experiment videos I've seen. Controlling for all sorts of variables via sensors that most others would ignore. Thank you for this video, I and countless others will benefit from your rigor! I'm about to glue up a large table in half a dozen glue ups and this will save me days!!
Thanks dude! I could have added more variables like letting each of the conditions dry 24hrs but it takes so much material and time to do this experiment as-is. I’m glad you appreciate the consideration that went into the setup.
@@WoodcraftBySuman There are always more variables! You seem proficient at identifying and appropriately accounting for the important ones to reach practical, useful conslusions which is what makes good science. Most videos like yours are woodworkers taking a stab at being scientists, with varying success. You strike me as a scientist first, applying yourself to woodworking. Do you have a background in research?
@@FlyingMoose_ haha. Pretty solid deductions there. Yes I am a scientist - though in biologics.
@@WoodcraftBySuman Not a lot of fields that have a future in research beyond academia, biologics seems like it would be a good one. I worked in metal product manufacturing research and applications. Very large lab with lots of fabrication, inspection and data collection equipment - lots of work with load cells, they are so incredibly valuable for experiments but unfortunately very expensive! Stuff I've always dreamed of applying to woodworking so your videos resonate strongly with me, I'll be binging them over the next few days.
@@FlyingMoose_ that’s super cool! And hope you like the videos. I only have a few on testing stuff as this has been a recent pivot for the channel. I will continue to make testing or testing adjacent videos going forward.
As a mechanical engineer I applaud your approach and execution. As a long time wood worker I just found the answer to a question I have wondered about for 50 years. Congratulation, Suman, you deserve a big thanks.
I worked in a furniture mill in the early 1980's. When making raised panel doors with standard stick and cope construction, our rule was to leave the doors in the clamps for at least 2 hours. After that time, they could be removed from the clamps and stacked if we needed the clamps for another batch of doors. (We typically made doors in batches of 50 to 100 doors.) We were using a typical PVA glue, something similar to Titebond Original, which we bought in 55 gallon drums. We let the doors cure for approximately 24 hours before doing any additional work on the doors (trimming to final width and length, putting an edge profile on them, sanding, etc.).
I follow the same practice in my shop today. I leave a glue-up in the clamps for at least 2 hours and don't stress the joints for about 24 hours. I've never had a glue joint fail when following these procedures. (Except for the time at the Furniture Mill when someone stored a 55 gallon drum of glue outside, overnight, in sub-zero temps. None of the joints made with that glue held! PVA glue is ruined by freezing.)
Ruined by freezing, eh? Guess I should be throwing away all the bottles that sat in the garage over the winter and experienced repeated freeze thaw cycles. Not a lot of glue, but a couple of small bottles from when I couldn't find the last one and just bought new.
Could be that the glue was still cold when applied
No. We confirmed with our supplier that freezing ruins PVA glue. If your glue freezes, simply throw it away. There’s nothing that can be done to make it work after that.
Dang iI ust glued up a bunch of things with my titebond that was stored in my non heated garage. Great now I have to find a new spot to store my glue.
I can attest that frozen wood glue does not work that well after thawing.
I’ve also accidentally let CA glue freeze and that stuff is worthless after that
My rule of thumb from a practical and time efficient standpoint was to clamp up in the evening and let dry overnight then release and carry on the next morning. Has worked for me for decades.
That's the overall best way to do it.
Great info. I think one important point was unstated or understated: the piece without clamps was not disturbed. We saw how little force was required to break the joints when the glue had not dried yet. Clamps hold the pieces together so that they don't come apart from something as minor as bumping the table that the glued pieces are on.
Edit after watching again: the proper testing would have been to clamp for 1, 4, and 12 hours - then waiting to test until the glue had cured at 24 hours. While 30 minutes was shown to be too little, it was not shown what happens at 1, 4, or 12 hours. The assumption that 4 hours is enough is merely assumed.
I agree with you that a second subset of 1hr, 4hr, and 12 hr clamp time with full 24hr cure would have added better data for consideration on this video.
Two reasons why I did not do that: 1) it makes the video longer and slightly more complicated to follow. I have to consider average view duration and retention times when making videos on youtube. 2) it would take a lot more wood and I felt bad wasting so much wood as-is. Because 4hrs is able to get strength that competes with the strength of the fibers itself, it is a reasonable conclusion to make that 4hr clamp time generates strong enough joint to remove clamps at room temps and 200psi.
Tests like this are just that: tests. How I chose to break the joints is not necessarily analogous real world conditions. Some people glue up in 65F shops and others in 85F shops -- this will have a huge impact on clamp time needs. There are certainly other ways to test this topic and I may even explore it in future videos. Thanks for watching.
@@WoodcraftBySuman Thank you for your tests. They are not only entertaining, but do give us more data.
Jupp, this is how it should haven been tested. No need to leave a glue up for 12-24hours in the clamps. Clamp for 2-4 hours and let the glue dry for 24 hours before applying thr full expected load. Assembly can continue after the 2-4 hours, if you don't stress the glue line to much.
When you get to the point where the wood fails instead of the glue, that's all the testing you need.
@@WoodcraftBySuman I can see that work and time and material has to be finite and you have to stop at some point. However your argument about "viewer retention" is unfortunate. Good methodology is like good workmanship quality: A bit of a pain to follow through with, but viewer retention through reputation is worth much more IMO. Compare for example to "Project Farm" testing. Always super meticulous. And look where it got him! (Just speak faster and edit more? 😁)
Testing that actually uses multiple samples and throws out the top and bottom? Here on UA-cam? Amazing!
Seriously, I find it so refreshing to see a real effort to apply the scientific method. Thank you!
(I've wanted countless woodworking videos here, but this is the first of yours. I subscribed.)
Do you have a reference for where the "throw out max and min, average the rest" approach comes from?
That is a pretty common approach to doing simple statistics. The idea behind throwing out the extremes is to remove the cases where something unusual happened, letting you focus in on the most common examples. When I googled it I mostly got examples of how to do it using tools used for such analysis (Excel spreadsheets, MATLAB) rather than WHY. Which supports the idea that it is common, since so many questions about how to automate it have been asked.
@@somebodypeculiar Thanks for looking into it! That's also what I found. I was hoping there was some statistical rule of thumb that outlined the why. To me, it seems like just lopping off the top and bottom gives an artificially high confidence in your data's consistency. I'm not good at statistics though, so that's why I ask.
Actually, removing the extremes is often a sign of a lack of confidence in the quality of the data. Measurements that are way off from the rest can be the result of a bad measurement. Or they can represent failure of an experimenter to repeat the process consistently. It is a rough-and-ready approach to trying to reach a good rule-of-thumb, rather than a rigorous statistical process. For that matter, the average (mean) isn't always the best measure to use; the median is often preferred, where half the samples are above that point and half below. Note that while the drop-on-from-each-end approach can change the average, it can not change the median.
@@somebodypeculiar So it's like a quick and dirty way to try to limit the influence of outliers without having to actually know how to identify true outliers. I think I understand why people use it better now, thank you.
Love your scientific approach to woodworking. We need more channels like yours. Great info with practical uses. Thanks for your content.
Love how thorough you were with this. You have saved me from the worry of "Have I clamped this long enough" I was at overkill with overnight glue-ups lol. Thanks Suman.
I'm glad that I can safely free up my clamps in shorter intervals, since I started woodworking I'd usually leave glue-ups for 8 hours. Great video! The pacing of information throughout was perfect.
I am so glad you did the hand test, because I cannot tell you how many times people have told me 'you should clamp that'. I usually just use tape on veneer repairs (small pieces) unless it may shift. Its always been fine. Thanks for the video!
Honestly that was also my biggest takeaway from the video.
I feel so much better about my projects held together by painters tape.
This is a super helpful video ! I didn't realize how much risk I was taking unclamping my glue ups at 30 minutes. You've probably saved many people at least one project disaster. Very through analysis !
Great vid, I’m sure this will be very useful and informative to a lot of people including myself!
My totally unscientific thought on the 30 min/24 hour surprise breakage is that maybe it could be that when the pressure is released before the glue is fully cured, the wood slightly ‘rebounds’ when the clamp is removed and causes a sudden shift in force that might upset the bond, whereas an even pressure scheme for the entire cure time wouldn’t experience such disturbance in the forces and glue line.
Just a thought for future vids - it would be nice to have a text layover of the test conditions (clamp time etc) during the part of the video where the breakages occur in the testing. Good for easily distracted people like myself to see where we’re at.
Keep up the great work, I love this channel!
I agree, in fact releasing multiple clamps one by one causes serious unbalanced pressure on the joint line.
I came here to say the same thing. This absolutely what happened.
+1
+2
Id like to see a follow up on this video on what is the minimal amount of glue needed to secure a joint vs drowning a joint.
I second this nomination. I've always wondered that myself. But like Suman says, Im putting possibly too much glue, and relying my choking of my clamp handles to squeeze out what it doesnt need. I'm a drowner, but have found the only downside of this is cleanup time, and using more glue. But I'm a weirdo, and enjoy the glue scraping/cleaning process....its cathartic.
As a non-woodworker who frequently puts bits of wood together, I'd also like to hear/see the results of flood v's sparing. As well as that, what about the effect of lightly moistening the joint face with water (to open the pores) before applying the glue?
OH MAN. This is the deep dive I've been waiting for. Thank you for this!
This is an excellent video on glue ups. I usually wait at least 1 hour before handling or working with glued material on fast moving projects, but now will wait longer after seeing you video. Thanks a million
I watched this after seeing the joint testing video you did with Scott Walsh, and you've definitely earned my subscription! I only own a few clamps and I'm definitely one of those who leaves them on overnight if not a full 24 hours so knowing this will help ease my anxiety about taking them off sooner. Thanks, and I look forward to seeing more of your testing videos!
Your videos mix engineering and woodworking in a way I haven't seen done on youtube before, really enjoyed this. Keep it up!!!
Love the process you used, I'm 60+ years old and spent my life thus far as an engineer asking the questions you asked. Well done! About to retire and spending more time in the wood shop, been thinking about my glue ups, hum... and you just did 700% of the work. Thank you so much. Youre awesome, thank you. Honestly, I think you out engineered Tightbond on their instructions, and you were very graceful, well done.
my hypothesis on the 30m clamp 24hr dry boards is that the clamps force much of the glue out, but the bond after 30m isn't enough to the adherants to maintain the joint and so it weakens. i've had this type of result when overclamping joints, wiping up the squeeze out and then backing off some of the pressure. i had a tabletop split right down the glueline this way and ended up doing some testing to figure out why it might have happened. i found it was pretty well understood that too much pressure can starve a joint and i suspect that backing off the pressure after clamping is creating a similar situation.
I love the scientific approach you've brought to your channel. There are so many possibilities for things to test in the shop, I always look forward to what you'll test next!
Thanks for taking the time (and resources) to do that! You just answered questions that I've dwelled on countless times.
Very very informative! You answered nagging questions that I’ve had for decades! No more overnight clamping for me!
such a great video Suman... i definitely learned a bit. your approach and execution of these tests is nothing short of amazing.
Wow, heck of a video on wood glue. You answered a huge number of questions I’ve asked myself, clamp time, fit, etc.. Great video, thank you. Looking forward to your next vid, you a great job at explaining what you’re doing, why, and the editing is very good. Thank you, a woodworker from Missouri.
Outstanding! Thank you so much for investing the time in doing this and sharing the results!
Short, concise, expert advice.
Thank you. This will be my procedure going forward.
Great job covering the variables I've wondered about every time I am waiting on glue ups in clamps. Nicely done Sir.
Congratulations on your very carefully controlled methodology, I hate testing videos that don't even care to make sure the samples and force applied are as equal as possible, it made me really happy to see all the care you put into this, it doesn't go unnoticed.
Wow! No fluff, only the good stuff. Literally packed a 30 minute video into 10 minutes. Played at 1.5x that's less than 7 minutes! You won't find a video packed with more info per minute. Took me longer to write this comment than watch the vid - very well deserved. How could I not subscribe? Genius! Thank you man - been prayin for vids like this!
Thank you so much for this test. As a new hobby woodworker this is the kind of video I love.
Love your scientific approach to woodworking issues. Very professional and informative. Keep up the good work.
This was enlightening. Congratulations on your method, the editing, the data collection and everything. Awesome work
First time watching one of your videos, and I have to say this was not only a really useful topic but a brilliant approach/process to testing
Really really useful, great stuff
Good video Suman. Appreciate your hard work and resources + efforts you put into these videos. Keep up the good work. Looking forward to more such content from you.
Perfect timing, I got some sheet goods to laminate this week. Thanks for all the helpful info as always!
I loved your scientific approach to woodworking! Your channel has a lot of potential!
Great video, and I always appreciate anyone who tests conventional wisdom to see if it really holds up. Some years ago I was doing a project of making wood covers for baseboard heaters. It was all made out of poplar but required a ton of glue ups. But all of them are under low stress. I found that just holding the pieces together with my hands for 5 minutes was sometimes sufficient. 4 years later none of these glue joints have failed. Typically, I prefer to leave major glue ups in a clamp for 8-24 hours. But for minor things, where the wood will be under low tension and not see serious abuse, then shorter clamp times work just fine.
Second video I've stumbled upon from you with good data. Subscribed to make it easier to find your future vids.
Really great testing scenarios, demo process and videography. Some amazing and unexpected statistics too. Well done sir!
As an engineer myself I have to say: Perfect execution! 🤩I love how you put attention to all the details! And the results are also very helpfull ... thanx for investing your time. 👍
Awesome video! Well put together, concise, great info and well thought out experiment. Glad it popped up in my recommended, will check out some other videos on your channel!
Thanks for producing it.
As an owner of a WW business, (and an even smaller YT channel than yours...lol) this is very helpful information. I got into the habit of writing the time on my glue-ups and waiting about 3 to 4 hours with only enough clamping pressure to get squeeze-out along the entire edge. As to the LAST TEST...my theory would be that the initial pressure squeezed out most of the glue and then releasing that intense pressure left the joint a little "glue-starved" for final curing.
Hand-clamping kept enough glue in joint so it was not replaced by air (spring-back / rebound of wood sucks in air). You're right about "glue-starved".
This males perfect sense. there may even have been air ingress once the pressure was removed from the glue starved joint. I'd love to see a magnified shot of the break
By clamping you push excess glue from joint. When you remove clamps after 30 minutes you release pressure on wood so a little tiny gap can occur on joint, but there is no glue to fill that gap.
So it doesn't matter that you leave it for 24 hours, joint is already weak.
When you making joints using just hands or weak pressure, you don't push so much glue out from joint, you don't store tension in wood, so wood don't try to break that joint and glue can do the job. There is probably a little more glue in such joint but it doesn't matter.
This is honestly one of the best videos I’ve seen. Very informative. Keep up the good work!
great video and even greater experiment and explanation, thank you very much for taking the time to do this 😃👍
Thank you for putting in all the time and resource's to show us the results. You have triggered me now to try my own tests on the rub joint of old, I think this may be interesting.
I love your perfect explanation of a well executed scientific process.
From observating your experiment, I am smarter now than I was before.
Awesome detail! Thanks for exploring this topic. I can work more effectively now.
Very informative video, great tests and a lot of knowledge as a take away! Thanks! :D
That was really well done. Thank you, you answered a lot of questions that I've often pondered.
Glad you enjoyed it! Thanks for your kind words.
Loved this, super informative and you covered all the things
I love this video. This is such a great idea, and really well-executed. Such valuable info
Amazing effort Suman, loved it and it is much appreciated.
Amazingly detailed video. This is going to save me so much time (and clamps) for future projects. Thank you Suman!
Thanks Blake! I can’t wait to see the bull weave sculpture!
Love the content, Suman! You’re answering a bunch of the questions a lot of us have been asking ourselves…… overnight in clamps it is 😅
Great video as always so much great information with scientific testing to back it up in a small way. Thanks for sharing
Thanks for such a detailed test. 👍
very thorough attention to details!
I just LOVE theses kind of test base video where we get to conffont our habits to rigorous testing method and growing from that new knowledge
Excellent video! Well presented and thoroughly thought through.
great video! Thank you for your effort!
Excellent job. Very useful information. Thanks very much.
Such an informative video, thank you!
Nice well paced presentation with excellent test based info on glue/clamping strength relationships. First time on your channel, wil be back to learn more. Thanks for sharing.
Fantastic. Limited variables to 1 at a time. Love the thought out testing methonds. Just fantastic
Helpful video, thanks!
Saved me a pile of testing , thank you. I am also sharing because I think someone who takes the time to do testing is a valuable asset to any wood workers out there.
Appreciate you! 🙌
Was looking for a thourough glue clamping time video. This is great man! I don't ccomment much, unless I feel like I got great value out of a vieo. Really liked the video. Well put together! Subscribed.
10 minutes were very enjoyable and time flew by. Thank you, it was a useful video. Be safe dear friend
Great info, you saved a lot of extra glue time, and clamps. I always wondered about using tape on glued miter joints, now I see some proof thanks to you.
Awesome video! Thank you so much for the hard work and fantastic video, as always.
Yes! You make valuable, quality video, Suman. Doesn't matter if they don't come out often. Good stuff is worth waiting for, and it can only come as you are able, not as others wish.
Very helpful to quantify the time effects of clamping glue-ups. Adequate clamping pressure, released at 4 hours but NOT disturbed for 24, and on to the next tasks. It would make sense to have left them all for 24 hours as directed, to see if it matters when the clamps were removed. I suspect it wouldn't matter so long as the glue lines were intact.
You are so right that the quality of the edge match is most important. And that means you don't need a clamp every 3 inches either. I glued a 3 piece panel of cheap wood with jointed edges for a painted sign that rotted away after 15 years in the rain, snow & ice. But it never came apart.
Thank you so much!
Very informative! Thanks for your efforts.
Bravo, sir! This is an excellent approach to the scientific method--you control for the things you can, account for extremes in deviation, and publish your results in an easy to understand way while acknowledging constraints.
I'll definitely be reducing the clamping time between phases now that I understand this. I mostly make picture frames and smaller jointed items anyway. If something is clamped for 24+ hours, it's not a big deal, but I won't worry about the joints being too weak after 2-4 hours, so long as no additional stress is added in that time.
Brilliant presentation! Wow. Excellent video
This was an interesting video! I liked how you did 5 samples per test.
Great video. Very informative. The non-clap results were very surprising to me. I'm going to think twice when I do my next picture frame...I usually struggle with a complex set of clamps trying to distribute equal pressure on all sides
Very helpfull in my current job, As a lean manager in a Staircase maker.
U also saved me Weeks of testing 🙂...
I'm already full of new ideas !
Nice! Will definitely speed up some of those clamp dependent projects!
This is how a science of woodworking video is done. Thank you for being a hero.
This is great! Your methodology is appreciated and earned you a subscriber. I'm looking forward to looking through your other content.
Thanks David! Welcome aboard!
love this. Lots of good information here
I love Titebond III.
However, I have believed - from my woodworking experience [I used to be a luthier] and am now a woodcraftsman - that it is weak unless it is left undisturbed for 24hrs. After then, it is an excellent bonding agent, and as you have shown, only 4hrs is necessary for reliable strength.
But good to have your scientific experiments to draw from, really appreciate it.
Great work, thanks.
Most of my glue-ups are segmented rings for wood turning. This is useful information to me, especially allowing the joints to cure for 24 hours. This will speed up my assembly process while still producing a strong, safe bond.
Nice job, keep it up, learned a lot, just subscribed. Thanks!
Excellent video!!
Great work Suman! Very interesting and helpful!
Thanks dude! Appreciate ya watching.
great video, all questions I've always wanted to know but lack of time to find out
Removing the clamps before fully cured likely allowed some spring back to cause fractures in the semi-cured glue joints.
Amazing content. Found you through your colab's. Keep it up!
Thank you. This has been super helpful!
Thanks for an excellent video.
Hi Suman
Very cool that Scott collaborated with you.
You are our scientist!
Thank you
Ed😊
Haha thanks. We are friends in real life.
Man that was a well
Conducted test. All controls were controlled and the test rig was an excellent setup! Kudos!
Thanks! Since your name is Kyle, you might like the “hidden dangers of diy” video 🤣
Thanks for the information. Very useful.
instant subscribe. Great study and information!
Great video, thanks so much for taking the time -- very useful and interesting, but with a "real life" competing for your time, impressive you were able to do such thorough and careful testing, and then the video editing.
Great info. I appreciate these videos because they answer good questions without my doing the test. 😅
I’m in the shop right now preparing 120 test samples for the next video. Trust me, it’s best that I’m the one laboring over this and not you 😂
I've seen a couple of your stress tests and I have one compliment on your test setup. A lot of videos that I see people doing similar tests they use a luggage scale and try to capture the readout with a camera to find the frame with the highest reading. Your setup is much better because of the peak-hold feature of your scale. LCD displays, especially on inexpensive luggage scales have a fairly slow refresh rate so the actual peak reading may never show on the LCD. The peak hold of your scale will actually capture the peak reading even if it happens between LCD refreshes. Thank you for the quality of your test setup.