Hey thanks for all the great information. I'm still a little stuck on the 30° 25° bevel. If I have a 25° plane or chisel why should I bevel it to 30 on the edge and not just change the whole angle? Thanks, Jerome.
Just a +1 reply promoting the wish in my comment below to compare your results to the Unicorn method… shoulda put my comment here in the first place. Thanks!
What's you lead time for Canadian orders (Alberta)? I can't find Scary Sharp films from any of my usual sources, and the cheapest result from Amazon Canada is three times your price. (I don't think the exchange rate is quite that bad!)
I remember a forum post once where some scientist who had access to an electron microscope showed how a blade looked at different points in the sharpening process at smaller-than-light-waves scale. Now *that* would make for a cool video, if you could track down a scientist with electron microscope access!
I’ve been preaching 3 diamond stones: coarse, medium, extra fine, then strop for years. Strop every so often and you rarely have to actually resharpen. I’m glad this video validates what I believed to be true after years of application. Good video bud
As I watched the video I agreed with 3rd coast craftsman. Like all a mature woodworkers you go through all the systems and can only say the 3 to 4 diamond plates with leather strop is the most efficient and best option, particularly for above average woodworker. It,s not expensive, clean up is minimal and quick, Particularly when your woodworking time is limited, and you get great results. I don’t see myself ever changing. And I can get shavings down to .0005 to .001 and shave hairs. I believe that’s all one needs to get through your projects using most common hardwoods. This video is excellent and I watched many of your other great videos over the years. Thank you for taking the time (plus the cost) to produce this great video. Keep up the great work!
As merely a hobbyist, sharpening is the last thing I want to spend a lot of $$ and time on. I bought the scary sharp after one of your previous videos and this just reinforced what a great decision that was. Thanks so much for the science of it!
I gotta say, this video is much needed! I see these videos where someone sharpens like it's some zen, define my self worth, religious experience. You have validated what I have for decades found true. I have diamond stones, one ceramic and leather strop. That's it! get it done so you can get back to work. But, when an edge it truly sharp, you HEAR it in the cut. It has a whistle sound. Listen for it...
I love the way you do these in depth tests on things like this. That said, I do think that a good rule of thumb is that, if there is a lot of debate about how best to do a thing, then it probably doesn’t actually matter and it is, as you say, “whatever works for you.” There’s no debate about which end of the chisel is sharp because that question has a specific answer: there’s lots of debate about how to get the chisel sharp, because lots of different methods get good results.
This rule of thumb also applies internally to your own brain! I've struggled with indecisiveness for most of my life, until one day it suddenly clicked that I was getting stuck on certain decisions precisely *because* they didn't matter 😅 Since that epiphany I've saved probably entire days of wasted time by learning to recognise when it's happening, flipping a coin (or telling Google/Siri/Alexa to flip one for me), and immediately going with whatever the coin tells me... Or suddenly realising that I don't want to do what the coin tells me, in which case hey, I still made a decision 😎
@@clawsoon OP's observation works for situations where many people have real experience with different methods, and they all give good results. i doubt many people can claim to have real experience with raising children (doing it, prefferably a lot, AND correctly evaluating the results). it's statistically a one or two time thing for most people, and, talking results, only about half of all adults end up being able to form healthy emotional attachments. i'd definitely not throw parenting in the "doesn't matter, turns out fine anyway" bucket. i think it's more psychology vs dogma and indolence.
It’s only April but I’m pretty sure this is the video of the year for me. I love how a rigorous approach can cut through opinion and point to an effective method. My biggest takeaways: 1. I’m potentially sharpening too often; and 2. My current system of 1000 grit diamond stone + 4000 grit Shapton glass stone + leather strop with green compound is effective enough for all situations. I have a set of scary sharp paper, too, but I do like the longevity of the diamond and glass stones. In any case, thank you for posting this!
This video came up in my feed for some reason so I decided to watch. All I can say is after watching I am compelled to sharpen something. Great presentation and interaction.
Didn't test oil stones but your conclusion aligns with my experience and everything I've learned from professionals that I trust... get the burr, strop, and go to work!
I've watched this video multiple times now and continue to be amazed with the amount of information that you're passing on to us. I just inherited a couple planes and purchased a couple more. I won't get to sharpen/clean them up for a few months but when I finally do, I'll be a semi-pro because of this video.
Since you have a Tormek it would have been interesting to see how the stropping wheel compared to the other alternatives 🙂 With my carving knives I usually just touch up the edge on that 2-3 times a day and find it being good enough. Sometimes I use a small fine diamond “stone” when the blade starts to feel dull.
Hi Johnathan, GREAT video, seriously. Excellently well done. However, I have a small technical correction on something you said at the 19:30-ish mark where you were talking about both float and tempered glass. So if you're glass chipped, it was not tempered. Float glass can be tempered, but it is not by default tempered. Float glass is made by pouring glass over molten potassium. The glass is lighter than the tin (corrected from earlier wrongly listed metal, thank you @GB Expat Cornishman) and floats on top while hardening as it gets cooler. The potassium "lake" is very flat and provides very flat glass. Tempering can be done in several ways, but most commonly (such as in car windows), cold air is aggressively blown on the surface when the glass is very hot. This causes the outside surface (on both sides) to contract and compress the glass in the middle. For example, if the glass is compressed (say) 10,000 l/si on the outside, it takes >10,000 l/si to cause enough deflection to break the glass. Plus, the tempered glass breaks into small rectangular solids that are much safer than large shards of glass. Next time you pass a car accident, pull over and examine the side or read windows; you can see this. Windshields (the front window) are laminated glass and not tempered. When it breaks, the plastic lamination holds all the pieces so they do not fly around into the face of the driver or passenger. I was a scientific glassblower for over 40 years, demonstrating these dynamics to many groups and organizations and have written extensively on glass, glass physics, and glass chemistry.
@@katzmosestools Actually, the origin story is more complex then a super villain: I was getting my BS in Oceanography but was directing a Hungarian dance troupe and needed some customization of some glassware. I took a 1-unit class in scientific glassblowing. The chem professor who taught the class suggested I think about doing that for a job and it became a wonderful career. Any other glass questions, just ask. I may have answers.
@@chrisjordan4210 Haha. Of course. And it's all Newton's fault for inventing Calculus to work out rounded areas by cutting them into smaller and smaller bits. So don't blame me; blame Newton!!
@@nonexman Yep, I was only thinking of the imperfections introduced by Newton's model of gravity, of course, to sharpen an edge tool properly we need to factor in General Relativity..."frame dragging" etc...or maybe like using those really fine stones we're losing the plot as JKM said (and to think I used to enjoy woodworking)😊😊. Now, where's that old oil stone?
One of the many, many aspects I appreciate about Jonathan are his collaborations with talented, smart people, and then he doesn't get in the way of their expertise, but rather highlights it. Excellent video, great insights. Thanks as always.
Two of my favorite people talking about something I love, what could be better than that? But seriously, great video you guys! Loved the approach and final result 🤗
Thank you. Sharpening is a wild jungle, so it’s nice to have someone chop a clear path through it to the goal. I’ve been trying to find that path for years for my kitchen knives and other tools. This video is a huge help in that direction.
I'm a strong believer of use what you have. I have a 40 year old oil stone, works fine. I'd rather have a sharp enough tool that will work than worry about perfection that performs the same. Sharpen quickly and get back to work
My issue with oil stones is keeping them flat takes more time than I’m willing to spend. I can use abrasives on glass and get a sharper edge with less overall time spent. Find a system you’re comfortable with and enhance it as needed.
@@raymondbunkofske4702Oil stones don't take long to flatten, some SiC grain on a bit of glass, or super coarse diamond stone will make them flat pretty quick, and they don't go out of flat very often.
How long will the Scary Sharp films last? Is there a good/easy indication of when they are no longer performing as expected and need to be replaced? Great video, very informative!
Go and watch the videos by Matthew Platt from Workshop Heaven he knows more about Scary Sharp than anybody alive. I've been using Scary Sharp for over a decade and am a dedicated hand tool craftsman. I probably change the five grits I use 5 times a year and I use hand tools almost everyday in my work. But I get 3 strips out of every A4 sheet. One time purchase of a piece of float glass for about £40 and a good honing guide and some sheets of lapping film and you are good to go.
As a Scary Sharp user, there is no right answer to this. It's going to depend on how often you sharpen, how hard you press down, whether you are back flattening new chisels/plane blades, and how many different tools you are sharpening on them. I change my paper about 2-4 times per year, but I resharpen on the SS probably once every 2 days, and then just strop while I am actually doing the work. I just like to reset the edge before a session. However, I usually start at the 1000 or 1200, the light blue or yellow, so the dark green and blue last longer, as I use them less. I also usually only need to do 5-10 strokes on the higher grits, and sometimes I even skip a grit if I am in a hurry. It also depends on whether you are just doing a micro bevel each time, or doing a larger surface area on the tool. The only ways to really tell are 1.) Is your steel leaving dark marks still? That is metal coming off, so if no metal is coming off, you probably are going to need to change the paper. 2.) Is it taking a lot more strokes to get the edge sharp? If you suddenly find yourself doing 50 strokes, it's probably time to change that paper. The way I generally tell is by going on the light blue/yellow until I get a bur, then using a sharpie and marking the very tip of the edge before each next grit, and going for about 3 strokes after the sharpie is removed. If it is not removing the sharpie, either your angle is off, or it is not removing material. It's not an exact science, so there really is no clear answer for everyone. There is certainly a trade off with the SS, because if you do go through a lot of paper, it's going to add up over time. I think there is a case to buy nicer stones to do the earlier grits, up to maybe 1200 or 2000, or whatever, then doing the rest on the scary sharp. Your stones won't need replacing if they are nice, so you save money there, and your paper of higher grits will last longer, as there is less to remove.
Interesting and it concords with experience. I have concluded after many years of trying different systems that the best option is to buy a Tormek first and never use anything else. It would be good to see a test of the sharpness you can achieve there.
FWIW, and based on long experience, I agree with you completely. I sharpen everything by hand and I have used all of these methods. They all work and they all work well. Ultimately, I have come to use diamond stones as a preferred method because I like their cutting ability, their durability and their flatness. I have 300/600/1200/8000 grit diamond plates which work well both for creating new edges and touching up dulled edges. But the key, the REAL key, in my estimation is the strop. Hand stropping and power stropping work very well and very quickly to put a keen polished edge on chisels, plane blades, knife blades, and carving tools. As the years have gone by, I find myself stropping a lot more and sharpening a lot less -- especially with chisels, knives, and carving tools. If I am carving, I keep a strop on the bench next to my work for both knives and gouges. Lessons learned... Great video. Thanks! 👍👍
If the strop is making a huge difference on your edges, you aren't deburring properly. Spend a little more time on the stones, deburr with light (less than weight of the blade) strokes, and then test the sharpness once properly deburred. You shouldn't see much improvement post stropping if done properly. As for maintaining tools, strops are great.
@@autumn5592 After using the 8000-grit diamond plate, burring is not a big problem -- especially after I run the back of the blade over the 8000-grit plate. I also drag the blade laterally across my thumbnail to check for any burring before I use the strop. The stop appears to polish the blade to a sharper edge. It may be a slight difference, yet it is very noticeable. I can easily see the difference by shaving hair from my forearm, both before and after stropping. The hair cuts much more easily and smoothly after stropping. The same goes for cutting end grain in pine or cherry before and after stropping.
@@jerrystark3587 Burr formation is a problem even at 30,000 grit. You can have issues with burr formation on sub-micron diamond pastes too. The burr is the problem why you aren't getting sharp edges. Even micro-burrs harm sharpness. You won't see them or feel them either. But if they make the apex thicker (they do, just by being there), or fold over, then you won't have a sharp edge. Material removed from a bare leather strop is nothing, the grit of it is like 160,000 or something; you would have to take thousands of passes to see any difference. For pasted/compound strops, the difference on actual sharpness is negligible, if you're using it to deburr. If you want to see if the issue is burr formation, after you've sharpened, test it, then take 6-10 passes each side (alternating) lightly on jeans. If your knife gets sharper, you had a burr. Grit does not magically stop burrs forming, polishing does not have much of an impact on sharpness.
My father used to sharpen buck knives for hunters (he owned a small engine repair shop) and he would start with any major reshaping on a grinder, then move to a pair of stones, then to a piece of cardboard with compound. His final step was jeweller’s rouge on a flannel wheel to polish it up, but he told me often about a hard leather wheel he used to have for a bench grinder. Even without the hard leather wheel, he would often let the weight of the blade slide down his forearm and shave the hair off when gave it to the customer. The right person could sharpen a spork into a scalpel if they are dedicated, but it might only make one cut.
Bought a piece of float glass from a local glass shop, they asked if I wanted the edge cleaned up or not. Didn't cost any extra, but if you're going that route, I'd definitely recommend doing it! Makes the edge smooth and safe to handle, you can't cut yourself on it. 12"x12" was about $20, thickness was 1/2" I think. Might go higher, like 5/8" or 3/4", if I were to buy again.
Thank you for these objective tests! I already knew that the obsessive fine stones up to tens of thousands which are expensive too, makes only a difference on the first 5 strokes. I use one diamond stone: 300 / 1000 then leather lapping, for me it does the job, no need for anything else.
Well it’s good to have it settled with this, the last word in sharpening videos. I have a 400/1600 diamond stone with some leather and stropping paste. It makes burrs and works great.
This is the only valuable video on UA-cam on edge sharpening. I would urgently request a similar review on stropping compounds. Knife forums consider the green wax compound advocated as useless and even as a negative product. An interesting aspect never treated critically is that a mirror polish has no functional value for edge performance. A theoretical value might be a decreased surface tension to make the metal very slippery. I have found that on any metal surface that effect be achieved with a thin film of Renaissance mico-crystalline musum wax. When hand buffed the effect is almost make the metal surface almost touch undetectable when skin glides over the surface. Other benefits are described with product information. There is a serious need for s stropping compound review.
Fantastic test and presentation. I have water stones, diamond stones and scary sharp sandpaper. Never got the best results. Now I know why. Thanks so much. You are the best!!!
For new woodworkers who value their time, I would still suggest leaning in the direction of a diamond stone for the coarsest grit, because that will save you a *lot* of time when you’re establishing initial flatness on things like the back of a cheap chisel from Home Depot.
@@katzmosestools nice! Im working with some panels of 9mm felt and woodlamels (acoustical panels) and to cut/fit the felt i use blades for stanley knives. They dull rather quickly on this felt or if i hit a staple, but because of this video i thought of stropping them - and oh boy does it resharpen them! 5-10 pulls each side and they as sharp or sharper than new! Nice :D
Hey guys, thanks for putting this video out. So much work just to make the point to not worry to much. But yeah that's what at least I needed to hear, to somehow find trust in what I do already.
Great video! Only question I have is edge durability for chisels - when mortising into harder woods, it seems that regular sharpening is imperative but I may be wrong
I found some 10 x 14 tiles at Home Depot. Let’s you put 2 grits per tile, however what I like better about these is that you have a couple of inches left at the bottom of your sheet, so that when you sharpen with a jig you get to use the whole sheet in stead of just 8 inches .
I teach over a hundred middle school students each year. My blades on everything are constantly trashed. What 'beginner' system would you recommend for younger students to use as they learn how to find that 25/30 degree angle and not destroy the worn/damaged blades to the point where I am grinding a new edge every month or so? I think teaching them how to respect the tools and care for them will eventually allow my students to not be so careless with them. There will always be a few students out there who may not be mature enough, but as a middle school teacher, it just comes with the territory! This also means that I spend an excessive amount of time cleaning up the chips and gouges they leave me each week. I'd love to learn about a better system that may not be 1000% sharp, but that can be "good enough" for a quick and easy solution while still keeping the students focused on their goal of sharpening and caring for the equipment.
Now that we have the proof I will continue to use my 1000/4000 water stone payed 18$. And to avoid strop I will buy a 8000 or 10000 water stone for additional 18$. 36$ every 2 years it seems to me the perfect sharpening system. And I don't like strops: you can buy the most stiff and expensive leather in the world (shell cordovan) and still risk to round your edge. Thanks for sharing, this was very precious information.
Great information! I’ve been experimenting with stones, diamond and scary sharp… and strop: thin adhered to board. As you mentioned, the tear of scary sharp film is a certain, particularly if dressing a new chisel that isn’t flat. Plus the pull back motion is slow if needing to flatten a back from new mid-level chisels. I’ve mixed the system with Ultra Sharp Diamond set… 300 up to 3000 and the Scary Sharp film on up through their 60000 grit. Probably not necessary, but the diamonds 2200 & 3000 seem to get it close in the least time consuming with 2 way strokes and finishing with Scary Sharp and quick strop. You’ve pointed out my procedure has duplication processes that may be more detrimental than simply duplication of effort & time. I’ll modify based on your findings… great Video! Enjoy all your videos and have purchased several items from your store.
Great work, guys! When I found what worked for me in terms of ease, sharpness, and time, I stuck with it. It's sharpening three grits (400, 800, 1200) on diamond stones and stropping a few times on hard leather with green stropping compound. That's what I consider sharpening, otherwise it's 1200 and strop, or just stropping to touch up, which I consider honing. Oh, almost forgot! Not every tool is the same. Inspired from some discussions in the Rex Krueger community I tried honing my Mora knife on a slate stone instead of leather, which gave me a much better result that regular stropping.
Gotta say, honing is sharpening, the word hone literally means sharpen. But yes, I totally agree, taking up to 3k, 5k, 10k, etc. is all pretty pointless. Most really use is 220-600 grit, with a black compound on strop (IF I STROP). My blades will easily shave hair. Grit doesn't make sharpness. Touching up on hard abrasives is good, can't accidentally 'overstrop' on a stone, and prevents the issues that come with it (to much convexivity, rounding of the apex.)
@@autumn5592 Yes, I know, it's a bit of a personal use of the words, I guess. Which isn't the best of ideas 😅 But I'm trying to differentiate between full on sharpening and touching up, which I just did now 😂
Excellent video. These comparisons are invaluable. I've found that with diamond stones it makes a big difference if you get one with very fine grit. DMT's "Extra Extra Fine Diamond Stone" has particles that are only 3 microns, which is as fine as anything in the video. I have one, and it works very well. Plus it provides all the other advantages you mentioned. You do have to rinse it periodically to eliminate swarf. I would love to see you put it through your sharpness test and to see the results. FYI DMT's "Extra Fine Diamond Stone" has particle size of 9 microns. It also works well.
Cool video and I can appreciate the ton of effort that went into it. At the beginning, what is sharp is defined as being able to effortlessly cut printer paper (~140 g or less) and it’s stated that this is usually good enough for woodworking. This seems a bit arbitrary and it’s not clear why ‘effortlessly cutting printer paper’ is the standard for ‘woodworking sharp’. It would be ideal to examine the surface of planed wood and use it as a measure of what’s required for sharpness - it might be difficult to quantitate the ‘smoothness’ of planed wood - and this is very likely wood species dependent. For the 30 degree vs 25 degree bevel angle, it would have been cool to see a plot of number of strokes planed on wood vs grams of quantitated sharpness. You could then directly compare the plots of 25 vs 30 degree bevel for a better comparison of sharpness longevity as it relates to bevel angle - this might require more than three points as done here (10, 50, 100 strokes).
We’re on the same page. 140 is arbitrary. And what is “good enough”? Ever plane Honduran mahogany with “good enough”? Bloodwood? Or domestically, hickory. The idea of going literal hundreds of passes without needing to sharpen or only stropping is ludicrous. I’m pretty sure “whatever sharpening method works for you” is a euphemism for “whatever your standards are”.
This was incredibly helpful. I currently use the diamond stone method and a hard leather strop. It gets the results I need but for the low cost, I may just try the Scary Sharp system. Thanks again!
Honestly speaking I would love to see your techniques on using each of the systems. I used to use shapton stones after battles with every single system I was able to find. And after 30 seconds sharpening technique from Rob Cosman I havent found anything more friendly to myself. That bring me back to conlucsion I havent heard anything about tertiary bevel in here. This video is good but got some points ready to be extended / fine tuned. Last note - what about oil stones? Are they not good? Less messy then water stones, easy to use, no rust... Lot of positives
The Paul Sellers video I watch five years ago nailed it. Did anyone need to sharpen to 30,000 grit to make amazing furniture? Nope. So sharpen until it’s sharp enough and just get back to work.
Great video and very helpful. On my own I have noted that stropping seems to be the key; but I always feel like I need to pull out the stones as well. You have saved me a lot of time and effort!
Watched this some months ago and came back to it today. The Shapton stones have an idiosyncratic 'grit system' which needs to be considered. Their "16000 grit" is 0.92 microns. I have a 12000 grit Japanese water stone that is 0.50 microns. Not saying that they are worth more for the $$ spent. And yes, they are messy...all of them..including the 'scary sharp' method.
Been saying the same thing for years km. I have a whole mess of stones and diamond sharpeners and whatnot, I still go scary sharp on float glass currently which is great, although this got me thinking tiles are a much better option.
I can't remember if it was Jason or hey l Keith who said you should change your motto and I agree.. Instead of if it's not in our shop it's not in our store.... You could say if it's not in our shop, it's not in our shoppe 😂... thanks for the video, and for sponsoring the podcast!
I subscribe to Suman too… I love the collaborations you’ve been doing with Jason and now with Suman! Lots of respect and admiration for the WW community and the great info youall provide us!
Thank you for the scientific insight to the unsure. One more component regardless of the monetary value, whether there on not, the psychological reward of effort applied to achieve more with less effort but not burdened further than cost or opinion . I feel good about the break in a constant applied effort to give homage to be applied to learn a skill that brings an equal amount or more to a standard chosen freely and applied in other than obligation... Well done to attempting to reduce concerns around sharpness...
I settled on Paul Seller’s method. 3 diamond stones and a strop. (No micro bevels and all free hand) My number one reason is speed for settling on his method. No jigs needed except for the initial set up of the blade or if the blade gets out of square. I will always keep my Veritas jig for that reason. Great video guys!
If you strop the beveled side first (on soft leather), starting with a 25-degree main grind, then the "round over" may simply add that "five degree" "microbevel" to the blade geometry. Very often you hear folks described an edge as the intersection of two planes. In reality, one plane maybe defined by a really flat back, while the other is the _tangent_ of the arc of the "rounded over" bevel. As long as that intersection is very acute, and very clean, you have a sharp edge. Paul Sellers makes this point, but the geometry versus material surfaces is pretty clear once you think about it. And, most importantly, as you note, you don't need anything but occasional stropping for quite a long time before you _need_ to tackle using stones again. I've eased off on how fine the stones I use are, and now rarely push beyond 1200 on a diamond stone. After stropping, the hair flies off the arm. For knives, I will work up to an 8,000 grit waterstone. Cooking needs much sharper edges than wood working.
Great video! I have another question about sharpening that I haven’t seen tested before. I, like many others, like to watch Paul Sellers. He sharpens his plane irons free hand in a way that produces a camber or curve on the edge of the plane. This seems counterintuitive to me that it would create a sharp edge. Have you ever tested this to see if it makes a difference…camber vs straight edge? Thanks for all the great content.
@@Woodwork-Learner sorry for the confusion. I meant camber on the sharpened edge, not across the blade width. Paul will drop his hands as he extends out during sharpening and raise them back up as he pulls the blade back. This creates a camber on the whole sharpened edge.
You are talking about convexivity of the edge. It does increase sharpness slightly, and increase durability of the edge (not necessarily edge retention though.) You don't need to hold a perfect angle on lots of woodworking tools, because the cutting is done in the first fraction of a mm, the rest just 'moves it out of the way. You are still sharpening the edge when making a convex bevel, you have to or it wouldn't be sharper. If you hit the entire bevel at once, you very rarely have to take it and re-grind it, because you are removing as you go. Much nicer than microbevels, or hollow grinds, etc. Allows you to just keep working, very little thinking, reflexive.
This is tremendous info, thank you! My question though, is what about vintage plane blades? Most of my planes are 70-130 yr old Stanley's. I believe it's a different steel, so how do they fare compared with the LN blades you tested?
The main advantage of the Shapton glass stones over traditional water stones is that they don't require soaking. You can just splash some water on them and use them. But yeah, I don't buy into any super high grit stones. My only issue with the "scary sharp" system is that it's great for chisels and plane blades, but if you're also sharpening knives, it can be difficult to get it set up in a good form for that use. There are plenty of good stone setups for knives. That said, aside from my really nice, expensive Japanese knives, I sharpen most of my knives using a sanding belt system (I use a Work Sharp), which is pretty much just "scary sharp" on steroids.
I'll point out good water stones don't need to be soaked! Ex. Naniwa super stones, shapton pro. They are marketed as "splash n' go". The shapton glass stones are just higher quality, wear slower, and are glass backed! Hope that helps
@@Haydt456 Certainly a lot of the modern ones don't, by popular demand, but there are still soaking stones that are good and have been used for decades. I'm impatient, though. Plus, it's a hassle to soak stones just to touch up one knife, and keeping them submerged all the time seems to make some stones less effective, IMO -- and a pain to store that way. And also not mentioned, there's not enough love for traditional "Arkansas stones" aka whetstones or oil stones. I don't use them much, but my father used to get some great edges on a simple 2-sided whetstone with a little machine oil, holding both the stone and the knife in his hands. Great skill to have in the field, and a decent oil-soaked whetstone is an entire field kit on its own and can last decades.
As my Mentor said about sharpening, keep it simple.. I use good quality Diamond plates. 300 for rejuvenating bevel, 600 to establish the edge, 1200 to form the burr then strop on hard leather with Chromium Oxide compound.. No need to pfaff about.
Feel like you did the shaptons a disservice. You only have the stones that are higher than you should really care about. Personally, I like diamond up to like 1200, then shapton at 4k and 12k (i have a 8k for back lapping too, but don't normally use it) then stropping. Also curious how jende type strops and compounds work out.
I’m sure those stones are great. Our point was the the 30k shapton stone isn’t worth it. I love their lower grit stones and they are very high quality.
You recommend the 3M cubitron sanding discs for quickly removing material during sanding and holding up longer. It comes in a PSA version. It seems like a coarse grit in the scary sharp system would be comparable to a diamond stone for removing material quickly. Any comments?
Great video and thanks for all the comparison and conclusions. Big help for someone who is new to all this sharpening. And, really happy I don't have to do it as often as I thought. 🙂
Im a materials engineer at in a metallurgical lab, we polish metals and ceramics to an optical mirror finish using SiC papers 240/400/600/1200grit then a few minutes with final colloidal silica polish (metals). When I see all these sharpening videos finish at some 8000grit the blade still has scratches from initial grinding at 120 or 240 ish, after 1200 it should reflect like a good mirror with no tool marks visible with out good magnification .
Love the vid, really do....question: how would Autosol (toothpaste style black and gold tube) polishing paste hold up against green polishing compound? Would really love to know your opinion. What about standard Stanley irons? Any tests on those....or would the consensus be (more or less) the same?
I am a sharpening system collector 😃, but I've found that I like my set of DMT and Trend diamond stones (180/600, 300/1000, 8000) best, followed by using a homemade leather strop (strip of leather glued onto a scrap of oak with green compound smeared on). I can touch up a chisel or plane blade in about 2 minutes and my forearms are bald from testing the sharpness.
Can you guys recommend the best sharpening guide you've found thus far? There are tons of them out there but I have no clue which is worth buying. Thanks
How often do you need to replace the paper? I would be interested to see if dollar for dollar a diamond stone or water stone is actually more expensive than replacing those scary sharp films. Maybe not if you actually sharpen less often, or maybe if you sharpen less often a set of stones could last you a lifetime and you could just hit some higher grits with the scary sharp when you wanted that level of sharpness
Very interesting video guys, here in the uk I’ve progressed from my Tormek system to the scary sharp system, much quicker and cleaner, I don’t use anything else now. I do still use the tormek but mainly for my wood turning tools. I agree with your conclusion that you must strop, many thanks for the test. 👏👏
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Hey thanks for all the great information. I'm still a little stuck on the 30° 25° bevel. If I have a 25° plane or chisel why should I bevel it to 30 on the edge and not just change the whole angle?
Thanks, Jerome.
Just a +1 reply promoting the wish in my comment below to compare your results to the Unicorn method… shoulda put my comment here in the first place. Thanks!
What's you lead time for Canadian orders (Alberta)? I can't find Scary Sharp films from any of my usual sources, and the cheapest result from Amazon Canada is three times your price. (I don't think the exchange rate is quite that bad!)
I remember a forum post once where some scientist who had access to an electron microscope showed how a blade looked at different points in the sharpening process at smaller-than-light-waves scale. Now *that* would make for a cool video, if you could track down a scientist with electron microscope access!
Sooo, grandfather had reason again.
I’ve been preaching 3 diamond stones: coarse, medium, extra fine, then strop for years. Strop every so often and you rarely have to actually resharpen. I’m glad this video validates what I believed to be true after years of application. Good video bud
Thanks my friend! Yeah it’s not the scary big deal a lot of people make it out to be.
As I watched the video I agreed with 3rd coast craftsman. Like all a mature woodworkers you go through all the systems and can only say the 3 to 4 diamond plates with leather strop is the most efficient and best option, particularly for above average woodworker. It,s not expensive, clean up is minimal and quick, Particularly when your woodworking time is limited, and you get great results. I don’t see myself ever changing. And I can get shavings down to .0005 to .001 and shave hairs. I believe that’s all one needs to get through your projects using most common hardwoods. This video is excellent and I watched many of your other great videos over the years. Thank you for taking the time (plus the cost) to produce this great video. Keep up the great work!
You strop for years? No wonder your knifes are sharp.
Great info, man! Well done! But where is the spread sheet? LOL Thanks for all your work!
As merely a hobbyist, sharpening is the last thing I want to spend a lot of $$ and time on. I bought the scary sharp after one of your previous videos and this just reinforced what a great decision that was. Thanks so much for the science of it!
I gotta say, this video is much needed! I see these videos where someone sharpens like it's some zen, define my self worth, religious experience. You have validated what I have for decades found true. I have diamond stones, one ceramic and leather strop. That's it! get it done so you can get back to work. But, when an edge it truly sharp, you HEAR it in the cut. It has a whistle sound. Listen for it...
I love the way you do these in depth tests on things like this.
That said, I do think that a good rule of thumb is that, if there is a lot of debate about how best to do a thing, then it probably doesn’t actually matter and it is, as you say, “whatever works for you.”
There’s no debate about which end of the chisel is sharp because that question has a specific answer: there’s lots of debate about how to get the chisel sharp, because lots of different methods get good results.
This rule of thumb also applies internally to your own brain! I've struggled with indecisiveness for most of my life, until one day it suddenly clicked that I was getting stuck on certain decisions precisely *because* they didn't matter 😅
Since that epiphany I've saved probably entire days of wasted time by learning to recognise when it's happening, flipping a coin (or telling Google/Siri/Alexa to flip one for me), and immediately going with whatever the coin tells me... Or suddenly realising that I don't want to do what the coin tells me, in which case hey, I still made a decision 😎
That's exactly how I feel about parenting advice, lol...
@@clawsoon or which toothpaste to buy...
@@clawsoon OP's observation works for situations where many people have real experience with different methods, and they all give good results.
i doubt many people can claim to have real experience with raising children (doing it, prefferably a lot, AND correctly evaluating the results). it's statistically a one or two time thing for most people, and, talking results, only about half of all adults end up being able to form healthy emotional attachments.
i'd definitely not throw parenting in the "doesn't matter, turns out fine anyway" bucket. i think it's more psychology vs dogma and indolence.
It’s only April but I’m pretty sure this is the video of the year for me. I love how a rigorous approach can cut through opinion and point to an effective method. My biggest takeaways: 1. I’m potentially sharpening too often; and 2. My current system of 1000 grit diamond stone + 4000 grit Shapton glass stone + leather strop with green compound is effective enough for all situations. I have a set of scary sharp paper, too, but I do like the longevity of the diamond and glass stones. In any case, thank you for posting this!
I lied on my resume to get the gig. I’m not Dr Wood.
Damn it!
Too bad I can't comment with a picture of a cat in line with soldiers.
I subbed on your channel because of this video. Good stuff.
@@Strawman333 same here 👍🏻
I know Katz Moses was wanting a serious wood doctor. Hard wood doc. No soft wood hobbyist.
This video came up in my feed for some reason so I decided to watch. All I can say is after watching I am compelled to sharpen something. Great presentation and interaction.
Didn't test oil stones but your conclusion aligns with my experience and everything I've learned from professionals that I trust... get the burr, strop, and go to work!
I've watched this video multiple times now and continue to be amazed with the amount of information that you're passing on to us. I just inherited a couple planes and purchased a couple more. I won't get to sharpen/clean them up for a few months but when I finally do, I'll be a semi-pro because of this video.
Since you have a Tormek it would have been interesting to see how the stropping wheel compared to the other alternatives 🙂
With my carving knives I usually just touch up the edge on that 2-3 times a day and find it being good enough. Sometimes I use a small fine diamond “stone” when the blade starts to feel dull.
Hi Johnathan, GREAT video, seriously. Excellently well done. However, I have a small technical correction on something you said at the 19:30-ish mark where you were talking about both float and tempered glass. So if you're glass chipped, it was not tempered.
Float glass can be tempered, but it is not by default tempered. Float glass is made by pouring glass over molten potassium. The glass is lighter than the tin (corrected from earlier wrongly listed metal, thank you @GB Expat Cornishman) and floats on top while hardening as it gets cooler. The potassium "lake" is very flat and provides very flat glass.
Tempering can be done in several ways, but most commonly (such as in car windows), cold air is aggressively blown on the surface when the glass is very hot. This causes the outside surface (on both sides) to contract and compress the glass in the middle. For example, if the glass is compressed (say) 10,000 l/si on the outside, it takes >10,000 l/si to cause enough deflection to break the glass. Plus, the tempered glass breaks into small rectangular solids that are much safer than large shards of glass. Next time you pass a car accident, pull over and examine the side or read windows; you can see this. Windshields (the front window) are laminated glass and not tempered. When it breaks, the plastic lamination holds all the pieces so they do not fly around into the face of the driver or passenger.
I was a scientific glassblower for over 40 years, demonstrating these dynamics to many groups and organizations and have written extensively on glass, glass physics, and glass chemistry.
Thanks professor glass. Feels like an origin story for a super villain 😂😂😂
@@katzmosestools Actually, the origin story is more complex then a super villain: I was getting my BS in Oceanography but was directing a Hungarian dance troupe and needed some customization of some glassware. I took a 1-unit class in scientific glassblowing. The chem professor who taught the class suggested I think about doing that for a job and it became a wonderful career. Any other glass questions, just ask. I may have answers.
@@nonexman Float glass cannot be flat...it must follow the curvature of the Earth...I'd hate for that to upset the perfection of my chisels!
@@chrisjordan4210 Haha. Of course. And it's all Newton's fault for inventing Calculus to work out rounded areas by cutting them into smaller and smaller bits. So don't blame me; blame Newton!!
@@nonexman Yep, I was only thinking of the imperfections introduced by Newton's model of gravity, of course, to sharpen an edge tool properly we need to factor in General Relativity..."frame dragging" etc...or maybe like using those really fine stones we're losing the plot as JKM said (and to think I used to enjoy woodworking)😊😊.
Now, where's that old oil stone?
One of the many, many aspects I appreciate about Jonathan are his collaborations with talented, smart people, and then he doesn't get in the way of their expertise, but rather highlights it. Excellent video, great insights. Thanks as always.
Great job, guys, thanks!
Two of my favorite people talking about something I love, what could be better than that? But seriously, great video you guys! Loved the approach and final result 🤗
Thank you. Sharpening is a wild jungle, so it’s nice to have someone chop a clear path through it to the goal. I’ve been trying to find that path for years for my kitchen knives and other tools. This video is a huge help in that direction.
I'm a strong believer of use what you have. I have a 40 year old oil stone, works fine. I'd rather have a sharp enough tool that will work than worry about perfection that performs the same. Sharpen quickly and get back to work
My issue with oil stones is keeping them flat takes more time than I’m willing to spend. I can use abrasives on glass and get a sharper edge with less overall time spent. Find a system you’re comfortable with and enhance it as needed.
@@raymondbunkofske4702Oil stones don't take long to flatten, some SiC grain on a bit of glass, or super coarse diamond stone will make them flat pretty quick, and they don't go out of flat very often.
For beginners or mostly power tool woodworkers I always recommend the “Scary Sharp” system. Great Video
How long will the Scary Sharp films last? Is there a good/easy indication of when they are no longer performing as expected and need to be replaced? Great video, very informative!
Go and watch the videos by Matthew Platt from Workshop Heaven he knows more about Scary Sharp than anybody alive. I've been using Scary Sharp for over a decade and am a dedicated hand tool craftsman. I probably change the five grits I use 5 times a year and I use hand tools almost everyday in my work. But I get 3 strips out of every A4 sheet. One time purchase of a piece of float glass for about £40 and a good honing guide and some sheets of lapping film and you are good to go.
As a Scary Sharp user, there is no right answer to this. It's going to depend on how often you sharpen, how hard you press down, whether you are back flattening new chisels/plane blades, and how many different tools you are sharpening on them. I change my paper about 2-4 times per year, but I resharpen on the SS probably once every 2 days, and then just strop while I am actually doing the work. I just like to reset the edge before a session. However, I usually start at the 1000 or 1200, the light blue or yellow, so the dark green and blue last longer, as I use them less. I also usually only need to do 5-10 strokes on the higher grits, and sometimes I even skip a grit if I am in a hurry. It also depends on whether you are just doing a micro bevel each time, or doing a larger surface area on the tool.
The only ways to really tell are 1.) Is your steel leaving dark marks still? That is metal coming off, so if no metal is coming off, you probably are going to need to change the paper. 2.) Is it taking a lot more strokes to get the edge sharp? If you suddenly find yourself doing 50 strokes, it's probably time to change that paper. The way I generally tell is by going on the light blue/yellow until I get a bur, then using a sharpie and marking the very tip of the edge before each next grit, and going for about 3 strokes after the sharpie is removed. If it is not removing the sharpie, either your angle is off, or it is not removing material.
It's not an exact science, so there really is no clear answer for everyone. There is certainly a trade off with the SS, because if you do go through a lot of paper, it's going to add up over time. I think there is a case to buy nicer stones to do the earlier grits, up to maybe 1200 or 2000, or whatever, then doing the rest on the scary sharp. Your stones won't need replacing if they are nice, so you save money there, and your paper of higher grits will last longer, as there is less to remove.
Thanks!
Scary sharp is the best system I have used, its quick, clean and easy to use.
Interesting and it concords with experience. I have concluded after many years of trying different systems that the best option is to buy a Tormek first and never use anything else. It would be good to see a test of the sharpness you can achieve there.
Granite tiles and countertop remnants from stores like habitat rebuild are excellent value for the money
FWIW, and based on long experience, I agree with you completely.
I sharpen everything by hand and I have used all of these methods. They all work and they all work well.
Ultimately, I have come to use diamond stones as a preferred method because I like their cutting ability, their durability and their flatness. I have 300/600/1200/8000 grit diamond plates which work well both for creating new edges and touching up dulled edges.
But the key, the REAL key, in my estimation is the strop. Hand stropping and power stropping work very well and very quickly to put a keen polished edge on chisels, plane blades, knife blades, and carving tools. As the years have gone by, I find myself stropping a lot more and sharpening a lot less -- especially with chisels, knives, and carving tools. If I am carving, I keep a strop on the bench next to my work for both knives and gouges.
Lessons learned...
Great video. Thanks! 👍👍
If the strop is making a huge difference on your edges, you aren't deburring properly.
Spend a little more time on the stones, deburr with light (less than weight of the blade) strokes, and then test the sharpness once properly deburred.
You shouldn't see much improvement post stropping if done properly.
As for maintaining tools, strops are great.
@@autumn5592 After using the 8000-grit diamond plate, burring is not a big problem -- especially after I run the back of the blade over the 8000-grit plate. I also drag the blade laterally across my thumbnail to check for any burring before I use the strop.
The stop appears to polish the blade to a sharper edge. It may be a slight difference, yet it is very noticeable. I can easily see the difference by shaving hair from my forearm, both before and after stropping. The hair cuts much more easily and smoothly after stropping. The same goes for cutting end grain in pine or cherry before and after stropping.
@@jerrystark3587 Burr formation is a problem even at 30,000 grit.
You can have issues with burr formation on sub-micron diamond pastes too.
The burr is the problem why you aren't getting sharp edges. Even micro-burrs harm sharpness.
You won't see them or feel them either.
But if they make the apex thicker (they do, just by being there), or fold over, then you won't have a sharp edge.
Material removed from a bare leather strop is nothing, the grit of it is like 160,000 or something; you would have to take thousands of passes to see any difference.
For pasted/compound strops, the difference on actual sharpness is negligible, if you're using it to deburr.
If you want to see if the issue is burr formation, after you've sharpened, test it, then take 6-10 passes each side (alternating) lightly on jeans.
If your knife gets sharper, you had a burr.
Grit does not magically stop burrs forming, polishing does not have much of an impact on sharpness.
@@autumn5592 I only report on my own experience. I am not reviewing principles of metallurgy. 😎
My father used to sharpen buck knives for hunters (he owned a small engine repair shop) and he would start with any major reshaping on a grinder, then move to a pair of stones, then to a piece of cardboard with compound. His final step was jeweller’s rouge on a flannel wheel to polish it up, but he told me often about a hard leather wheel he used to have for a bench grinder. Even without the hard leather wheel, he would often let the weight of the blade slide down his forearm and shave the hair off when gave it to the customer. The right person could sharpen a spork into a scalpel if they are dedicated, but it might only make one cut.
Bought a piece of float glass from a local glass shop, they asked if I wanted the edge cleaned up or not. Didn't cost any extra, but if you're going that route, I'd definitely recommend doing it! Makes the edge smooth and safe to handle, you can't cut yourself on it. 12"x12" was about $20, thickness was 1/2" I think. Might go higher, like 5/8" or 3/4", if I were to buy again.
This video should have significantly more views than it has in my opinion
Thanks! I truly appreciate your honesty. Now I’m going to buy something from your store to support you.
Thank you for these objective tests! I already knew that the obsessive fine stones up to tens of thousands which are expensive too, makes only a difference on the first 5 strokes. I use one diamond stone: 300 / 1000 then leather lapping, for me it does the job, no need for anything else.
Well it’s good to have it settled with this, the last word in sharpening videos. I have a 400/1600 diamond stone with some leather and stropping paste. It makes burrs and works great.
thanks so much for the hard work gentlemen.
Been using a diamond plate and a leather strop for years with green compound and works great.
Same! I stay away from the extra coarse, and I use the Paul sellers method
This is the only valuable video on UA-cam on edge sharpening. I would urgently request a similar review on stropping compounds. Knife forums consider the green wax compound advocated as useless and even as a negative product. An interesting aspect never treated critically is that a mirror polish has no functional value for edge performance. A theoretical value might be a decreased surface tension to make the metal very slippery. I have found that on any metal surface that effect be achieved with a thin film of Renaissance mico-crystalline musum wax. When hand buffed the effect is almost make the metal surface almost touch undetectable when skin glides over the surface. Other benefits are described with product information. There is a serious need for s stropping compound review.
Fantastic test and presentation. I have water stones, diamond stones and scary sharp sandpaper. Never got the best results. Now I know why. Thanks so much. You are the best!!!
For new woodworkers who value their time, I would still suggest leaning in the direction of a diamond stone for the coarsest grit, because that will save you a *lot* of time when you’re establishing initial flatness on things like the back of a cheap chisel from Home Depot.
Sharp tools are so important to having a good day in the shop. Its great to know that good enough will still work exceedingly well.
I love/your channel for this! We soooo much need more scientific approaches to this (and many other) crafts!
More to come my friend. Thank you!
@@katzmosestools nice!
Im working with some panels of 9mm felt and woodlamels (acoustical panels) and to cut/fit the felt i use blades for stanley knives. They dull rather quickly on this felt or if i hit a staple, but because of this video i thought of stropping them - and oh boy does it resharpen them!
5-10 pulls each side and they as sharp or sharper than new! Nice :D
Very impressive presentation 👍
Hey guys,
thanks for putting this video out. So much work just to make the point to not worry to much. But yeah that's what at least I needed to hear, to somehow find trust in what I do already.
I would just like to point out how ridiculously pleased I am that the tester is ‘’SHARP’ brand. Excellent video.
Right?!? That’s my favorite too
Great video! Only question I have is edge durability for chisels - when mortising into harder woods, it seems that regular sharpening is imperative but I may be wrong
thanks for putting the work in
like the *simpli-tizing* and the objective def for sharpness
I found some 10 x 14 tiles at Home Depot. Let’s you put 2 grits per tile, however what I like better about these is that you have a couple of inches left at the bottom of your sheet, so that when you sharpen with a jig you get to use the whole sheet in stead of just 8 inches .
Great video! I sharpened my blades after each job but also depends on the wood as well.
I teach over a hundred middle school students each year. My blades on everything are constantly trashed. What 'beginner' system would you recommend for younger students to use as they learn how to find that 25/30 degree angle and not destroy the worn/damaged blades to the point where I am grinding a new edge every month or so? I think teaching them how to respect the tools and care for them will eventually allow my students to not be so careless with them. There will always be a few students out there who may not be mature enough, but as a middle school teacher, it just comes with the territory! This also means that I spend an excessive amount of time cleaning up the chips and gouges they leave me each week. I'd love to learn about a better system that may not be 1000% sharp, but that can be "good enough" for a quick and easy solution while still keeping the students focused on their goal of sharpening and caring for the equipment.
Wood love a video on how to strop properly.
Now that we have the proof I will continue to use my 1000/4000 water stone payed 18$. And to avoid strop I will buy a 8000 or 10000 water stone for additional 18$. 36$ every 2 years it seems to me the perfect sharpening system. And I don't like strops: you can buy the most stiff and expensive leather in the world (shell cordovan) and still risk to round your edge. Thanks for sharing, this was very precious information.
Great information! I’ve been experimenting with stones, diamond and scary sharp… and strop: thin adhered to board. As you mentioned, the tear of scary sharp film is a certain, particularly if dressing a new chisel that isn’t flat. Plus the pull back motion is slow if needing to flatten a back from new mid-level chisels. I’ve mixed the system with Ultra Sharp Diamond set… 300 up to 3000 and the Scary Sharp film on up through their 60000 grit. Probably not necessary, but the diamonds 2200 & 3000 seem to get it close in the least time consuming with 2 way strokes and finishing with Scary Sharp and quick strop.
You’ve pointed out my procedure has duplication processes that may be more detrimental than simply duplication of effort & time.
I’ll modify based on your findings… great Video! Enjoy all your videos and have purchased several items from your store.
Yesterday my plane suddenly stopped to cut oak. 30 passes on the strop - good to go again.
Great work, guys!
When I found what worked for me in terms of ease, sharpness, and time, I stuck with it. It's sharpening three grits (400, 800, 1200) on diamond stones and stropping a few times on hard leather with green stropping compound. That's what I consider sharpening, otherwise it's 1200 and strop, or just stropping to touch up, which I consider honing.
Oh, almost forgot! Not every tool is the same. Inspired from some discussions in the Rex Krueger community I tried honing my Mora knife on a slate stone instead of leather, which gave me a much better result that regular stropping.
Gotta say, honing is sharpening, the word hone literally means sharpen.
But yes, I totally agree, taking up to 3k, 5k, 10k, etc. is all pretty pointless.
Most really use is 220-600 grit, with a black compound on strop (IF I STROP). My blades will easily shave hair.
Grit doesn't make sharpness.
Touching up on hard abrasives is good, can't accidentally 'overstrop' on a stone, and prevents the issues that come with it (to much convexivity, rounding of the apex.)
@@autumn5592 Yes, I know, it's a bit of a personal use of the words, I guess. Which isn't the best of ideas 😅 But I'm trying to differentiate between full on sharpening and touching up, which I just did now 😂
@@thomashverring9484 Fair enough. I've been known to use it the same way too.
Excellent video. These comparisons are invaluable. I've found that with diamond stones it makes a big difference if you get one with very fine grit. DMT's "Extra Extra Fine Diamond Stone" has particles that are only 3 microns, which is as fine as anything in the video. I have one, and it works very well. Plus it provides all the other advantages you mentioned. You do have to rinse it periodically to eliminate swarf. I would love to see you put it through your sharpness test and to see the results. FYI DMT's "Extra Fine Diamond Stone" has particle size of 9 microns. It also works well.
Fantastic testing, guys! Thanks a bunch! 😃
Stay safe there with your families! 🖖😊
Thank you! Will do!
Oh! ….I apologize to the third coast craftsman. Your videos are excellent too! Love them as well!….
This video definitely re-enforces my personal experience and learning with sharpening.
Cool video and I can appreciate the ton of effort that went into it. At the beginning, what is sharp is defined as being able to effortlessly cut printer paper (~140 g or less) and it’s stated that this is usually good enough for woodworking. This seems a bit arbitrary and it’s not clear why ‘effortlessly cutting printer paper’ is the standard for ‘woodworking sharp’. It would be ideal to examine the surface of planed wood and use it as a measure of what’s required for sharpness - it might be difficult to quantitate the ‘smoothness’ of planed wood - and this is very likely wood species dependent. For the 30 degree vs 25 degree bevel angle, it would have been cool to see a plot of number of strokes planed on wood vs grams of quantitated sharpness. You could then directly compare the plots of 25 vs 30 degree bevel for a better comparison of sharpness longevity as it relates to bevel angle - this might require more than three points as done here (10, 50, 100 strokes).
We’re on the same page. 140 is arbitrary. And what is “good enough”? Ever plane Honduran mahogany with “good enough”? Bloodwood? Or domestically, hickory. The idea of going literal hundreds of passes without needing to sharpen or only stropping is ludicrous. I’m pretty sure “whatever sharpening method works for you” is a euphemism for “whatever your standards are”.
Thanks for doing this testing!
This is what I needed. Always have been nervous to try an sharpen.
Don’t put too much pressure on yourself
Problem is thinking about it.
Just go and do it, doesn't matter it it's not perfect, it's better than it was before.
As always an amazing video from you Jonathan. Love how you are not held back by myths and old sayings but test from the ground up scientifically.
I patiently waited the whole time for this video to drop. Let's gooooo
leeeeeeeets goooooooo!!!!
This was incredibly helpful. I currently use the diamond stone method and a hard leather strop. It gets the results I need but for the low cost, I may just try the Scary Sharp system. Thanks again!
Honestly speaking I would love to see your techniques on using each of the systems. I used to use shapton stones after battles with every single system I was able to find. And after 30 seconds sharpening technique from Rob Cosman I havent found anything more friendly to myself. That bring me back to conlucsion I havent heard anything about tertiary bevel in here. This video is good but got some points ready to be extended / fine tuned. Last note - what about oil stones? Are they not good? Less messy then water stones, easy to use, no rust... Lot of positives
The Paul Sellers video I watch five years ago nailed it. Did anyone need to sharpen to 30,000 grit to make amazing furniture? Nope.
So sharpen until it’s sharp enough and just get back to work.
Thanks Jonathan, this spiel was really good.
Great video and very helpful. On my own I have noted that stropping seems to be the key; but I always feel like I need to pull out the stones as well. You have saved me a lot of time and effort!
Right on my friend
Watched this some months ago and came back to it today. The Shapton stones have an idiosyncratic 'grit system' which needs to be considered. Their "16000 grit" is 0.92 microns. I have a 12000 grit Japanese water stone that is 0.50 microns. Not saying that they are worth more for the $$ spent. And yes, they are messy...all of them..including the 'scary sharp' method.
Great video! I appreciate the honest analysis and cost benefit analysis. Thanks!
My pleasure!
Been saying the same thing for years km. I have a whole mess of stones and diamond sharpeners and whatnot, I still go scary sharp on float glass currently which is great, although this got me thinking tiles are a much better option.
I can't remember if it was Jason or hey l Keith who said you should change your motto and I agree..
Instead of if it's not in our shop it's not in our store.... You could say if it's not in our shop, it's not in our shoppe 😂... thanks for the video, and for sponsoring the podcast!
I subscribe to Suman too… I love the collaborations you’ve been doing with Jason and now with Suman! Lots of respect and admiration for the WW community and the great info youall provide us!
My pleasure my friend
Wish I could spend a week or 2 in JKM's shop one on one. Can't imagine all that I could learn!!!
Thank you for the scientific insight to the unsure. One more component regardless of the monetary value, whether there on not, the psychological reward of effort applied to achieve more with less effort but not burdened further than cost or opinion . I feel good about the break in a constant applied effort to give homage to be applied to learn a skill that brings an equal amount or more to a standard chosen freely and applied in other than obligation... Well done to attempting to reduce concerns around sharpness...
I settled on Paul Seller’s method. 3 diamond stones and a strop. (No micro bevels and all free hand) My number one reason is speed for settling on his method. No jigs needed except for the initial set up of the blade or if the blade gets out of square. I will always keep my Veritas jig for that reason. Great video guys!
Thanks JKM, you’ve given me the confidence to know that I’m not doing it completely wrong. Lol.
Thanks for all you do.
Glad to hear it
My grandfather was a barber and basically just used a strop on his cut throat razors between customers which seemed to work fine.
If you strop the beveled side first (on soft leather), starting with a 25-degree main grind, then the "round over" may simply add that "five degree" "microbevel" to the blade geometry. Very often you hear folks described an edge as the intersection of two planes. In reality, one plane maybe defined by a really flat back, while the other is the _tangent_ of the arc of the "rounded over" bevel. As long as that intersection is very acute, and very clean, you have a sharp edge. Paul Sellers makes this point, but the geometry versus material surfaces is pretty clear once you think about it. And, most importantly, as you note, you don't need anything but occasional stropping for quite a long time before you _need_ to tackle using stones again. I've eased off on how fine the stones I use are, and now rarely push beyond 1200 on a diamond stone. After stropping, the hair flies off the arm. For knives, I will work up to an 8,000 grit waterstone. Cooking needs much sharper edges than wood working.
Great video! I have another question about sharpening that I haven’t seen tested before. I, like many others, like to watch Paul Sellers. He sharpens his plane irons free hand in a way that produces a camber or curve on the edge of the plane. This seems counterintuitive to me that it would create a sharp edge. Have you ever tested this to see if it makes a difference…camber vs straight edge? Thanks for all the great content.
Same sharpness as you vary the blade for the work. Very cambered to remove a lot of stock, very little just to help prevent tramlines.
@@Woodwork-Learner sorry for the confusion. I meant camber on the sharpened edge, not across the blade width. Paul will drop his hands as he extends out during sharpening and raise them back up as he pulls the blade back. This creates a camber on the whole sharpened edge.
You are talking about convexivity of the edge.
It does increase sharpness slightly, and increase durability of the edge (not necessarily edge retention though.)
You don't need to hold a perfect angle on lots of woodworking tools, because the cutting is done in the first fraction of a mm, the rest just 'moves it out of the way.
You are still sharpening the edge when making a convex bevel, you have to or it wouldn't be sharper.
If you hit the entire bevel at once, you very rarely have to take it and re-grind it, because you are removing as you go.
Much nicer than microbevels, or hollow grinds, etc. Allows you to just keep working, very little thinking, reflexive.
This is tremendous info, thank you! My question though, is what about vintage plane blades? Most of my planes are 70-130 yr old Stanley's. I believe it's a different steel, so how do they fare compared with the LN blades you tested?
The main advantage of the Shapton glass stones over traditional water stones is that they don't require soaking. You can just splash some water on them and use them. But yeah, I don't buy into any super high grit stones.
My only issue with the "scary sharp" system is that it's great for chisels and plane blades, but if you're also sharpening knives, it can be difficult to get it set up in a good form for that use. There are plenty of good stone setups for knives. That said, aside from my really nice, expensive Japanese knives, I sharpen most of my knives using a sanding belt system (I use a Work Sharp), which is pretty much just "scary sharp" on steroids.
I'll point out good water stones don't need to be soaked! Ex. Naniwa super stones, shapton pro. They are marketed as "splash n' go". The shapton glass stones are just higher quality, wear slower, and are glass backed! Hope that helps
@@Haydt456 Certainly a lot of the modern ones don't, by popular demand, but there are still soaking stones that are good and have been used for decades. I'm impatient, though. Plus, it's a hassle to soak stones just to touch up one knife, and keeping them submerged all the time seems to make some stones less effective, IMO -- and a pain to store that way.
And also not mentioned, there's not enough love for traditional "Arkansas stones" aka whetstones or oil stones. I don't use them much, but my father used to get some great edges on a simple 2-sided whetstone with a little machine oil, holding both the stone and the knife in his hands. Great skill to have in the field, and a decent oil-soaked whetstone is an entire field kit on its own and can last decades.
I love when you do the deep dive videos
As my Mentor said about sharpening, keep it simple.. I use good quality Diamond plates. 300 for rejuvenating bevel, 600 to establish the edge, 1200 to form the burr then strop on hard leather with Chromium Oxide compound.. No need to pfaff about.
Feel like you did the shaptons a disservice. You only have the stones that are higher than you should really care about. Personally, I like diamond up to like 1200, then shapton at 4k and 12k (i have a 8k for back lapping too, but don't normally use it) then stropping. Also curious how jende type strops and compounds work out.
I’m sure those stones are great. Our point was the the 30k shapton stone isn’t worth it. I love their lower grit stones and they are very high quality.
Good video. Great info. Have a good one.
You recommend the 3M cubitron sanding discs for quickly removing material during sanding and holding up longer. It comes in a PSA version. It seems like a coarse grit in the scary sharp system would be comparable to a diamond stone for removing material quickly.
Any comments?
Great video and thanks for all the comparison and conclusions. Big help for someone who is new to all this sharpening. And, really happy I don't have to do it as often as I thought. 🙂
super informative, great video
You should get in touch with Wood by Wright as he has also done similar tests especially on chisels. Nice job. Always good information from you.
i got a piece of old leather welders apron, probably too soft, mounted on a bit of sapele offcut, works great as a strop ;)
Apparently kangaroo leather is preferred but it’s impossible to find for less than a pinky toe
Im a materials engineer at in a metallurgical lab, we polish metals and ceramics to an optical mirror finish using SiC papers 240/400/600/1200grit then a few minutes with final colloidal silica polish (metals). When I see all these sharpening videos finish at some 8000grit the blade still has scratches from initial grinding at 120 or 240 ish, after 1200 it should reflect like a good mirror with no tool marks visible with out good magnification .
Doesn't really matter past about ⅓-⅕th of a mm. Since that is where all the cutting is done.
It's just aesthetics past that.
Great video thanks for clearing this up I’m new to woodworking and have been looking for a sharpening system
Great work guys. Thanks!
Love the vid, really do....question: how would Autosol (toothpaste style black and gold tube) polishing paste hold up against green polishing compound? Would really love to know your opinion. What about standard Stanley irons? Any tests on those....or would the consensus be (more or less) the same?
I am a sharpening system collector 😃, but I've found that I like my set of DMT and Trend diamond stones (180/600, 300/1000, 8000) best, followed by using a homemade leather strop (strip of leather glued onto a scrap of oak with green compound smeared on). I can touch up a chisel or plane blade in about 2 minutes and my forearms are bald from testing the sharpness.
Can you guys recommend the best sharpening guide you've found thus far? There are tons of them out there but I have no clue which is worth buying. Thanks
Love these testing videos!
it'd be interesting to see this done for woodturning tools/methods too
Suman’s face when Jon said $400. I feel you
You know we're going to hit your store and buy you out 💖 Maybe when your sharpening jig is back in stock, it could be a bundle 😉 Fingers crossed!
How often do you need to replace the paper? I would be interested to see if dollar for dollar a diamond stone or water stone is actually more expensive than replacing those scary sharp films. Maybe not if you actually sharpen less often, or maybe if you sharpen less often a set of stones could last you a lifetime and you could just hit some higher grits with the scary sharp when you wanted that level of sharpness
Very interesting video guys, here in the uk I’ve progressed from my Tormek system to the scary sharp system, much quicker and cleaner, I don’t use anything else now. I do still use the tormek but mainly for my wood turning tools. I agree with your conclusion that you must strop, many thanks for the test. 👏👏