I'm a huge fan of foundationless hives. My belief is anything we can do to let me bees remain as they are in nature gives them a better change of longevity. Also, with foundationless, they build walkway and holes on the sides they can easily walk over to the other side.
Aloha! In Hawaii, I found beekeeping to be continual learning of new encounters: Open air wild hives, Hives in Cliffs, Caves, Trees and even under the level of the nearby ocean level. When I had our farm, 'Mark's Bee Haven', each 2 weeks we had to harvest our hives in the Kiawe [Mesquite] Honey Forest. We had 20 hives there. These gave 1200 pounds each harvest from the 2 bee yards or 60 pounds each hive. Of these, I found it was only practical to use plastic foundation or Plastic frame/foundation, since it was too rough on the drawn comb to be extracted so often. When bees have to repair comb, they are using time and honey to repair things= less honey to your harvest=less honey to sell. Our bee yards were to control the wild hives of the area by being busy getting the nectar so much better than the wild hives and thereby the wild bees would not build hives in the grounds of the hotels golf courses or the hotels as well. Since becoming 'disabled', I'm no longer able to work with dangerous equipment or travel far, but I still have a beehive in my 'city zoned' backyard.
I've always used foundationless frames. I started by using starter strips and stringing monofilament through the frames. Later, I went to only starter strips. My bees attach to sides and bottom when they're drawing out their comb. It doesn't take them a couple of years to finish attaching it. Also, I've never had a "blow out" when extracting. On rare occasions, I may place two large rubber bands around the frame to hold the comb in place if I think it looks weak. I agree... level hives are paramount. I use AZ Hives that have been modified to accommodate Langstroth deep frame dimensions. These are maintained in a bee house; therefore, leveling the stand on which the hives rest was all that was required to aid in straight comb building. Also, I run Russian bees which may or may not explain why my girls attach comb to the frame on the sides and bottom during the initial drawing out. I'm new to beekeeping so my method may change over time; but, for now, letting my girls build as they see fit has been working well for me. Thank you for a thorough and unbiased presentation a hotly debated topic.
Thank you for the time you spent on this very thorough discussion. I was a foundation-less proponent in the beginning of my beekeeping for awhile but moved away from it fairly early on. What you describe as “wonky” comb building is the RULE rather than the exception, - EXCEPT if you put in 3 or 4 frames in each box - on one side - with foundation for the bees to use as guides. I’m very glad I found out about this through reading about this from Michael Bush. It solves the “wonky” problem completely. Of course if you want cut comb, the same rule applies. You’ll get perfect frames for cut comb honey. Regarding blowouts during extraction; You will get blowouts if using a radial extractor. You’ll never get blowouts with a tangential type. If you have a radial type, you may be able to get a tangential adapter to place inside that will solve this problem. My radial Lyson extractor came with two tangential attachments for this purpose. Never had a blowout with this installed.
To extract an unwired frame with a tangential extractor, start slowly to take some of the weight off. Only do half of the first side then flip and extract other side fully, flip and finish. Pull the frame straight up to shear the comb off the extractor basket, don't pry the frame away. Push buckled comb straight and the bees will repair it.
This will be my 1st year starting beekeeping. I have decided to use foundationless frames for my brood boxes and stick with flow hive frames for my supers. I am retired from the US Army so the time it took to wire each frame was no issue. I am also using deep frames, so the popsicle stick was too small. It went all the way into the groove, leaving nothing hanging out. I found that tongue depressors like the Doc uses were a perfect fit for the deep frames though. And since I am using flow frames, I won't have to worry about the comb blowouts using an extractor. At least that is the way I see it.
Thank you for sharing, really appreciate it. I have only been beekeeping for 8 months. I have done bee hive removals and doing natural beekeeping. There is a lot to learn. I am loving it.
This is now the 3rd of your beekeeping videos I’ve watched. I don’t keep bees. I have no intention of keeping bees in the near future. But it’s still fascinating stuff, and I really like the pace of your delivery and the content is pitched so even a non-beekeeper like me can keep up. Liked and subscribed, keep up the good work 😀👍
I have a horizontal hive with extra deep frames. The top half I used foundation, the bottom half I did not. They ended up doing cross comb over 6 or 7 frames before I knew it. Plus I didn't check if for a while and the wax moths got to it. They tore up the foundation-less parts way more than the parts with foundation. The foundation-less is a total loss. I have made some new frames with wire and a starter strip similar to what Gene Rene builds. I hope they work better. I shall see next year, If I get another swarm to move in since my colony got robbed and absconded.
I only use starter wax strips. It’s built faster than full foundation in my case ! This is a long as I insert them between fully built frames. I think the reason is the proximity of the workers on both side. Always use wire if you want to extract by centrifugation. The problem when you begin is the lack of already built frames for me the problem was the same with or witout foundation. But I’m done buying wax foundation sheets. Next year i’ll make my own. From now on I should have enough built frames. Inserting between built frames you also makes clean straigt foundations so you kill two birds with one stone...
I have 60 foundation less hives in Western Australia but small cell beekeeping only works against mites if the bees are regressed to their original smaller size there is no advantage against mites if you let a full size bee make its own comb. I have one brood box of small bees then a Queen excluder the supers are plastic frames with full size. See Michael Bush small cell beekeeping. You can go small cell by putting only small cell plastic into your brood box thus forcing the bees in the hive to fully regress in 60 days.
I use foundationless in my brood boxes mainly because most of my hives came from cut outs or swarm traps. This spring I intend to cycle some foundation frames into my brood boxes on the older hives. I'll probably use some of that old comb in swarm traps but the rest I'll melt for wax to rewax foundation.
Wax foundation is a carrier of EFB and AFB so the alternative is lollypop sticks from a craft shop and hot glue them in with a hot glue gun the put wire through the frame to support the wax which the bees build. If you don't want drone comb the the frame should be placed in centre of the brood nest as drone comb is only built on the outer edges of the brood nest! Plus the bees will build the wax faster as they build both sides at once where as the foundation is a barrier that bees don't have in nature.
With my experience, one of the huge benefits for me with using foundationless is that it produces smaller bees--as the way nature intended it. All Foundation has larger cell size, which produces larger bees. It's something science tried decades ago but did not work, and the foundations have never reverted back to smaller cell size. .
Start the extractor off very slowly. as this will help prevent blow-out. Also with the use of and extractor that has the frames resting the buts of the frames, nest to the outside of the extractor, instead of the old type extractor, that has the face of the frame (comb side) facing the outside of the extractor, will also greatly reduce the problem of blow-out, especially when incorporated with the slow start. Fishing line works very well when installed tightly, but as you said, takes time. Cheap15 pound test eagle claw works just fine. PS I like your videos, and subscribed. Especially the saw mill type; Keep up the good work.
I just bought 100 deep plasticell foundations single waxed for $143 yesterday in Hamilton, Illinois. That's enough for ten deeps. $14.30 per box. Hey my workers produce around a ton of honey per season. I can afford to keep them in nice boxes with plastic foundations. Look good. Last long time.
Would you have a reason to not just run foundation in the honey supers and foundationless in your brood boxes. I've heard that bees don't like the wire but don't have as much of a problem with nylon fishing line
Drill a hole or holes in the top bar preferably the size of a bamboo Barbecue sqewer and push them to the bottom of the frame and this will strengthen the comb and you can do it after the comb is built.
I tried using fishing linenin mine and the girls just removed it. I am experimenting now with foundationless, wax foundation and plastic frames. I did buy some prewired. So I have the whole lot. Will make a decision on whcih to go with over the next few years. Great to know the pros and cons so I can be prepared.
@@franklotion8 I read that and thought 'what are carpenter bees - must be an american breed' LOL. So I will admit to being a bit slow😜. My little darlings are Itialian but as I graft my own and they mate locally they will be crossed with Carnolian. They are the two breeds we have in New Zealand.
That was what I just found, DRONE COMB on the foundation less! I PURCHASED 2 nucs and it was about 90% worker bees. My second brood box was a medium and I alternated foundation and starter strips. 3 days after they started to make their own comb, I noticed eggs in the comb. 1 week later and 1 foundation less frame is solid, both sides, all drone brood. I understand that is what the hive wants as most of the nuc was workers, but I hope you are right in that it will not affect honey production...
Hello from Slovakia. Foundationless beekeeping will affect the honey production. My experience is, if bees are foundationless they tend to build about 50% of drone comb in spring. This means 50% less workers, more eaters and less honey. It is very difficult to manage such hive in order to avoid them build so many Drone comb... result is rapidly less honey production. The reason why bees naturaly build so many drone comb is probably Need for wide genetic variability...Naturaly, bees do not need that much honey as beekeeper wishes :) ... me - myself I am about to give up foundationless beekeeping because of poor honey production ... :( ... I dropped from 30kg to less then 10kg of honey / hive.
Drill a hole in the top bar preferably the size of a bamboo Barbecue sqewer and push it to the bottom of the frame and this is a support instead of wired foundation
Can you mix and match? I haven't started beekeeping yet but was thinking black foundation would be good for spotting eggs, lighter for honey and having a couple frameless for comb honey
I'm a first year newbee. My hives are split 1/2 foundation 1/2 foundationless. On my foundationless frames I ran fishing line across through each hole. I want to go foundationless totally but didn't want to bet on either without knowing first hand. So far I have no problem with falling beeswax. Or collapsing frames. But my main hive is a bench hive. So when I was having them drawing them out I would checkerboard them.
the micro instruture of foundation and the bee made one are differ. the foundation was melted and got much solid the natural one, the natural nest was made with tiny piece of wax and full of air. so the foundation is far more weight than natural bee nest.
@@sierrabravo7368 yea...I figured that out. I haven't been taking care of my bees. I used to really like them...now I kinda want them to die. They stung me a few times & I have to wear a hot ass suit now & I dont like it. Got thousands in these hives now tho. Hope they figure out how to survive.
I tried foundationless for the first time this year. Never again. Cross comb was a problem and while harvesting yesterday (hot), I had three deep frames collapse. I was only using 9 frames per super so they were fat and beautiful. Not only were they a total loss but I had quite a mess to clean out of the grass so as not to attract robbers.
I use foundationless never have a problem crosscomb happens when there is a wrong spacing, and anyother tilting among frames other than that bees don't have to crosscomb.
Don't harvest or manipulate when it's hot. Get to that early in the morning. I'm in extreme south Louisiana and if we get to it before 1 or 2 there's no issues. Hope that helps.
@@MrJackwork yeah we get to the point of 90s all night every year. Above 95 with new wax can be a problem. We had record breaking heat last summer and still we managed fine. It's like everything else. Nothing is perfect for everyone. My bees are loathe to build on plastic. Went in some hives today, the bees skipped right over the frames I had in there with plastic foundation started stripes. SMH now if I can only train these ladies...
put frames in nucs that are needing worker COMB to grow ,then remove an use it in hive u want.If not,be prepared for a lot of Drone COMB in my experience
at 4.50,what exactly do you mean by drawing out horizontally,and that they have to start from the middle? why? im currently building my first hive,and i very much want to do things as naturally as possible. this seems like a no-brainer in that regard. im not even getting a swarm in any other way than el naturelle,il bait a swarm with lemongrass and 2 strips of wax and one 20 cm x 10 cm wax frame. q: do you think i should even leave any wax in a bait hive? it seems like it has greater chance of satisfying the bees if theres any kind of resources there,but not too much,im sure. correct me if im wrong! i love being corrected. the knowledge sticks better when theres an uncomfortable lessen. thanks,
Pretty much nothing will bait a swarm as well as having comb already in the hive, so if you can, bait with some old brood comb or something. Nothing unnatural about that. Especially considering that the trapped swarm will start building its own stuff soon enough. As for building horizontally: With foundation, the bees cannot festoon, i.e. hanging from the top and building right above their heads. They need to walk on the foundation and build the pattern out horizontally from the center, meaning the foundation. Now, you can argue whether this actually bothers the bees, but it is no question that it is not their natural way of doing it.
Just watched your video and was thinking about trying to put a chicken mesh around the frame while in was being spun just to hold things in place as it were. Also it might work with a few elastic bands round the frames. I live in Scotland and most of the U.K. use the smaller national frames, though I use langstroth and if I but in bees on national frames, I cut the comb from the national frame and use elastic bands to hold the frame in place until the bees make it fit the larger langstroth frame, though that is in a brood box and not a super for extraction.
Hay do a video on this.....deep frame with just top 2wires embedded I foundation strip. 3 strips per sheet of deep foundation. Bees build and connect top then festoon off strip building around remaining 2 wires on deep. I’m still figuring how to do a MED frame.
I use all mediums with a few exceptions, so I might not have the opportunity. But I think you have an interesting idea. If you try it, let us know how it works! Thanks for watching!
Lots of excellent information for beginners, and lots of food for thought for more experienced beekeepers! Having seen this before I started out would definitely have saved me some blood, sweat, and stings. :D Glad I found your channel.
Why can't you cut the plastic foundation into about a 2 inch strip and put it in the top Grove and make the foundation go further and at the same time have combed honey? I am learning just bought a langstroth 2 deeps and 1 medium and I am watching a lot of UA-cam , how do you have combed honey if you install a solid plastic foundation
You can absolutely do that. That's a fairly common way to make starter strips. You cannot have comb honey with a full sheet of plastic foundation. On the frames I want comb from I will still use foundationless.
Hallo, all beekeepers! From my point of view, the natural honeycomb foundation from bee wax is benefit to honey gains. As everybody knows 1 kg wax is equal to 3 kg honey. And bees are creating >80% of honeycomb from honeycomb foundation. They gives into it only up to 20% new wax. From this reasons our ancestors invented the honeycomb foundation. The more than 140 years old metod of honeycomb foundation production on the barrels (Amos Root in 1875) is suitable for big farms at automatic lines (Edward Weed's 120 year old automatic lines - 2 separate etaps - 1. flat weist role, 2. final weist and cutting - invented in 1895). For home user is used more than 160 years old Johannes Mehring's first metod (invented in 1857) of honeycomb foundation production at desk press. But this metod is by my opinion slow, expensive and arduous. But now exists the new, only 20 years old metod, which was invented by Marek Woś from Poland in 1999. His metod is more suitable, quicker and cheaper for smaller beekeepers with
ImAngryMan it’s several years old... each time there is an egg cycle it leaves behind stuff in the comb causing it to look darker over time. If you melt it down the wax would separate from the rest leaving you with bright yellow wax and all the other stuff sinks to the bottom.
Check around with different bk in ur area and they will tell u what they think, I am a 2 yr bk and in this area. There seems be varies opinions with car. And Italians being the main ones
@@SirTrollingham I'm sure you can mix and match. I'd call or email. That's how I learned that they were still selling the top bars. I'm making my own exclusively now. pretty easy with just a table saw and really it takes very little time. It's almost free.
wow this is my second time I have found the honey bee's at my place they swarmed both times I found them in January in a semi-heated shop we have machine shops we keep the heat turn down if we requiter to work on any machines in the building we can heat that building first one we did find them before we started any work in the building and did keep them from dying help with a beekeeper we safe put them in a bee box and them heated the shop up we keep feeling and the heat in the shop they one now the bees have not been found in the shop but did put a feeder box into a hive box they have moved into that box did find a queen in with them the beekeeper said they more than one bee swarm in here I did pick up thermometer to see were they are hiding there in the walls and the ceiling of the building its a big hives they are in different parts of the building this job has to wait to be done we did manage in wanted we needed to be done for the repairs I am now busy building new condo developments for the quests in the building they do eat a lot but it for a good cause for my dad he would just kill them off lucky for them they are on my farm and building have a lot of wild animals come and go throw my place had a couple moose live here and have beaver have been hanging around here again they came up to throw the stream runs throw the farm think they were cut off from were they should be they be hanging out with me now they are a very curious animals I try to keep my distance from them but they came to me I would not mine to put them back to the lake I think they form I think they came from now that we can monitor then when they could go back if they go back is and other questions the found food and place to stay have a dog bed in were they are at the been sleeping on it they can still access the water very easily inside the building have a water wheel inside the shop it open because I heat the building the came up from the hole in the floor its been nice out here I have the big door opening the to beavers are outside running around they found out they a bigger pest control that's I big pest have a black bear live here too, he came with a shotgun wound in him he was a small cub when he was found he was relocated 2 times and did make it back here did find my own animals did want him to stay they did found lonely without them they mat the bear and think he read the rules to them the stupid bear know want a beehive is he was stung on his nose as a cub was busy getting the honey from them but he pissed off yellow jacket bees were raiding that hive the beekeeper was told about it and we did found the yellow jackets close by and taking care of them too and the bear took care of the hive as well think the first time was the bees from that hive the beekeeper was not sure because of the queen was not marked and was small swarm to be again with the beekeeper said the hives been the for 5 years or longer too never seen any bee's around there the beekeeper has been checking up on the hives as well gets the kick out of the animals I have and does like the bee condo as well did name each hive and give each frame the apartment number as well as a CNC machine I can do all the cutting too he well buy the bees and the hives from me he said he has new queens on the way too I am not making them to make money for, just for the bee's them self I am building them for they will go out to a new home someplace would keep them but to many nosey animals here its bad that my friends have made posters of the animals and put them up as a joke have to give them credit I mean the animals the skunks take the cake each time they know if the window is open on their vehicle they have a ride in there think they plans were to escape but they had to look were they were off to my friend to call me to pick them up I had got to the city and stayed with them for a week did not miss that one at all he did like the dog doors around the block eat well in the city he was busted when he came out to see me, the neighbours thought it was a joke at first like all the clown he did had to leave smell there but did have a swim in out of the neighbour's pool was not that smelly after that why I had to stop and leave the windows and the locks unlock and the truck running to do some shopping the truck secretary system that in the truck keep the truck safe did have a person try to take it but the secretary did keep him in driving off with it they did have to call the police and have him arrested the skunk was upset that he was not allowed in the cars the grocery store did manage to give my grocery to me, and the skunk got carrots to eat as well I do take some to schools and a hospital too they know how to beg for food the bear think he has not eaten for a long time acts like he does not my food bill is very high to feed all of them to have a meat market does help out with most of the bear food too and the donut shop as well save the donuts for all who wants them have a Canadian goose thought it was there but the bear put a stop to that the first to see if he wants it and then it may be yours had a wolf cub found when we were out riding in the mountains it did make it home with me but did return it back to were it was found health it back to a healthy life miss he a lot the rancher have to seem him around and did find that he with other wolf and they think I come back for him in spring I will go and see him and if he does want to come back it to him as long as he shares the back of the truck with the bear or maybe ride in the cab with me I will see planning on taking the horses up there too the bear and the skunks will come to the porkypine doe like to walk that far at one time so he a home secretary have employee's work on the place the pincushion he know as will make sure they work hard slave driver they said when I have gone more like a pig pincushion I think he is my dog does not care now what comes on the properties now too my cats have moved to my brother place too had a hurt cougar that when the last straw with the cats the cougar got better and lift on her own will do have to be taking in for 3 days for her teeth to get better somehow she knew she could get better I know she been around again because she in my house throw the dog door
I'm with Rick, I'm sorry Jennifer, except that grammar and punctuation are not the only problem! For example, what does " ... donuts for all who wants them have a Canadian goose thought it was there but the bear put a stop to that the first to see if he wants it and then it may be yours had a wolf cub found ..." even mean??
I use mainly foundationless and run through extractor on a regular basis without blowouts...it's all about IF the frames are setup well...check out my channel for the better way to set up foundationless properly!!!! Also, the hives don't need to be perfectly level either...
Thank you for watching. I watched a few of your videos but did not find the one you were referring to. Feel free to post the title here so we can watch it. Edit: Found it. I've seen that skewer idea before. Great video.
Is there an easy way to clean plastic foundation brood combs. I was trying to harvest wax off old plastic foundation brood combs this summer and it was a pain in the butt. You can’t dip the frames in hot water or the plastic foundation will warp. It is also hard to scrape the wax of the plastic foundation, hence all the cocoons.
I have tried both foundationless and foundation frames. Both plastic and wood. I have had much better success using foundation, especially wood. Just my perspective on things. The bees have to really work hard and expend a lot of energy building out comb in an empty frame. And, the frame can be tricky to uncap while keeping the integrity of the cells for future use.. They can really take a beating in the extractor, too.
You say that plastic foundation is expensive in reality it is cheap as you can use it many times. After the wax month has don its job just clean it off with a pressure washer and re coat it with bees wax and put in either in a new frame or if the old frame is solid use it again.
I'm a huge fan of foundationless hives. My belief is anything we can do to let me bees remain as they are in nature gives them a better change of longevity. Also, with foundationless, they build walkway and holes on the sides they can easily walk over to the other side.
As a new bee keeper. I really appreciate this candid video. I love the pros and cons. Thanks!
Aloha!
In Hawaii, I found beekeeping to be continual learning of new encounters: Open air wild hives, Hives in Cliffs, Caves, Trees and even under the level of the nearby ocean level. When I had our farm, 'Mark's Bee Haven', each 2 weeks we had to harvest our hives in the Kiawe [Mesquite] Honey Forest. We had 20 hives there. These gave 1200 pounds each harvest from the 2 bee yards or 60 pounds each hive. Of these, I found it was only practical to use plastic foundation or Plastic frame/foundation, since it was too rough on the drawn comb to be extracted so often. When bees have to repair comb, they are using time and honey to repair things= less honey to your harvest=less honey to sell. Our bee yards were to control the wild hives of the area by being busy getting the nectar so much better than the wild hives and thereby the wild bees would not build hives in the grounds of the hotels golf courses or the hotels as well.
Since becoming 'disabled', I'm no longer able to work with dangerous equipment or travel far, but I still have a beehive in my 'city zoned' backyard.
I've always used foundationless frames. I started by using starter strips and stringing monofilament through the frames. Later, I went to only starter strips. My bees attach to sides and bottom when they're drawing out their comb. It doesn't take them a couple of years to finish attaching it. Also, I've never had a "blow out" when extracting. On rare occasions, I may place two large rubber bands around the frame to hold the comb in place if I think it looks weak.
I agree... level hives are paramount. I use AZ Hives that have been modified to accommodate Langstroth deep frame dimensions. These are maintained in a bee house; therefore, leveling the stand on which the hives rest was all that was required to aid in straight comb building. Also, I run Russian bees which may or may not explain why my girls attach comb to the frame on the sides and bottom during the initial drawing out.
I'm new to beekeeping so my method may change over time; but, for now, letting my girls build as they see fit has been working well for me.
Thank you for a thorough and unbiased presentation a hotly debated topic.
Thank you for the time you spent on this very thorough discussion. I was a foundation-less proponent in the beginning of my beekeeping for awhile but moved away from it fairly early on. What you describe as “wonky” comb building is the RULE rather than the exception, - EXCEPT if you put in 3 or 4 frames in each box - on one side - with foundation for the bees to use as guides. I’m very glad I found out about this through reading about this from Michael Bush. It solves the “wonky” problem completely.
Of course if you want cut comb, the same rule applies. You’ll get perfect frames for cut comb honey.
Regarding blowouts during extraction; You will get blowouts if using a radial extractor. You’ll never get blowouts with a tangential type. If you have a radial type, you may be able to get a tangential adapter to place inside that will solve this problem. My radial Lyson extractor came with two tangential attachments for this purpose. Never had a blowout with this installed.
I’m new to beekeeping, and this video answered all my questions about foundation, best video I have seen . Thanks
Glad I could help!
Do you sell being slimy?
To extract an unwired frame with a tangential extractor, start slowly to take some of the weight off. Only do half of the first side then flip and extract other side fully, flip and finish. Pull the frame straight up to shear the comb off the extractor basket, don't pry the frame away. Push buckled comb straight and the bees will repair it.
You said that way better than I could have. Good work
This will be my 1st year starting beekeeping. I have decided to use foundationless frames for my brood boxes and stick with flow hive frames for my supers. I am retired from the US Army so the time it took to wire each frame was no issue. I am also using deep frames, so the popsicle stick was too small. It went all the way into the groove, leaving nothing hanging out. I found that tongue depressors like the Doc uses were a perfect fit for the deep frames though. And since I am using flow frames, I won't have to worry about the comb blowouts using an extractor. At least that is the way I see it.
Thank you for sharing, really appreciate it. I have only been beekeeping for 8 months. I have done bee hive removals and doing natural beekeeping. There is a lot to learn. I am loving it.
Love the bee hanging out in the video!
and you see which frames that little baby bee was drawn to? The foundationless frames. When she approached the foundation she did an about face.
That one bee going for the world record on drawing that foundation out on his own.
This is now the 3rd of your beekeeping videos I’ve watched. I don’t keep bees. I have no intention of keeping bees in the near future. But it’s still fascinating stuff, and I really like the pace of your delivery and the content is pitched so even a non-beekeeper like me can keep up. Liked and subscribed, keep up the good work 😀👍
Thank you for posting. This information helps me choose which I want to do when getting started.
I have a horizontal hive with extra deep frames. The top half I used foundation, the bottom half I did not. They ended up doing cross comb over 6 or 7 frames before I knew it. Plus I didn't check if for a while and the wax moths got to it. They tore up the foundation-less parts way more than the parts with foundation. The foundation-less is a total loss. I have made some new frames with wire and a starter strip similar to what Gene Rene builds. I hope they work better. I shall see next year, If I get another swarm to move in since my colony got robbed and absconded.
Because You made basic mistake.
I only use starter wax strips. It’s built faster than full foundation in my case ! This is a long as I insert them between fully built frames. I think the reason is the proximity of the workers on both side. Always use wire if you want to extract by centrifugation. The problem when you begin is the lack of already built frames for me the problem was the same with or witout foundation. But I’m done buying wax foundation sheets. Next year i’ll make my own. From now on I should have enough built frames. Inserting between built frames you also makes clean straigt foundations so you kill two birds with one stone...
Excellent video. Thanks for producing this!
I use foundationless frames for the cut comb. I'm able to double the price of honey I'm able to sell just because of the cut comb.
greetings from Turkey. I use two sticks and nail it so the frame is divided into 3 parts. If you do so, the comb will not be flimsy.
Do you nail sticks horizontally or vertically? So is the frame divided into 3 parts across it, or up and down?
I have 60 foundation less hives in Western Australia but small cell beekeeping only works against mites if the bees are regressed to their original smaller size there is no advantage against mites if you let a full size bee make its own comb. I have one brood box of small bees then a Queen excluder the supers are plastic frames with full size. See Michael Bush small cell beekeeping. You can go small cell by putting only small cell plastic into your brood box thus forcing the bees in the hive to fully regress in 60 days.
Cut comb is easy with frames supported with fishing line, you just cut the line on the outside of the frame and pull it out.
Yep, I thought about that but didn't add it. Thanks for mentioning it!
Great video! Have you noticed any dif, in the amount of honey you harvest from foundationless vs foundation or pre built comb?
I use foundationless in my brood boxes mainly because most of my hives came from cut outs or swarm traps. This spring I intend to cycle some foundation frames into my brood boxes on the older hives. I'll probably use some of that old comb in swarm traps but the rest I'll melt for wax to rewax foundation.
This was a great video! Thank you for all of the info!
Wax foundation is a carrier of EFB and AFB so the alternative is lollypop sticks from a craft shop and hot glue them in with a hot glue gun the put wire through the frame to support the wax which the bees build. If you don't want drone comb the the frame should be placed in centre of the brood nest as drone comb is only built on the outer edges of the brood nest! Plus the bees will build the wax faster as they build both sides at once where as the foundation is a barrier that bees don't have in nature.
With my experience, one of the huge benefits for me with using foundationless is that it produces smaller bees--as the way nature intended it. All Foundation has larger cell size, which produces larger bees. It's something science tried decades ago but did not work, and the foundations have never reverted back to smaller cell size. .
I like to level my hive tilted forward to help them clean out debris
very informative video! this is the information i needed to decide on whats best for my bees!
Thanks for sharing this with us.
Maybe examples of the frames from 1st year and onwards. Sorry if you have already done this.
Great information!!
Thanks. Answered a lot of questions for me
Do you wanna see Bee magic tree? 11:22 there is a bee follow it! don't lose it. 11:56 boom ! no bee
Hive beetles are using the cut slots in the frames as motels, adds a lot of space for beetles, nearly as bad as the plastic frames.
Looks like it would work great on cut comb shallows.
Start the extractor off very slowly. as this will help prevent blow-out. Also with the use of and extractor that has the frames resting the buts of the frames, nest to the outside of the extractor, instead of the old type extractor, that has the face of the frame (comb side) facing the outside of the extractor, will also greatly reduce the problem of blow-out, especially when incorporated with the slow start. Fishing line works very well when installed tightly, but as you said, takes time. Cheap15 pound test eagle claw works just fine.
PS I like your videos, and subscribed. Especially the saw mill type; Keep up the good work.
phillip hall Very good tips, Phillip. Glad you are enjoying the channel. Thanks for watching!
I just bought 100 deep plasticell foundations single waxed for $143 yesterday in Hamilton, Illinois. That's enough for ten deeps. $14.30 per box.
Hey my workers produce around a ton of honey per season. I can afford to keep them in nice boxes with plastic foundations. Look good. Last long time.
Would you have a reason to not just run foundation in the honey supers and foundationless in your brood boxes. I've heard that bees don't like the wire but don't have as much of a problem with nylon fishing line
Impressed by the number of Bee Keepers as your fans.
who else was scared for that bees life
Drill a hole or holes in the top bar preferably the size of a bamboo Barbecue sqewer and push them to the bottom of the frame and this will strengthen the comb and you can do it after the comb is built.
Great idea
Oh nice. I'll try this out this coming week. Always looking for new tricks to try!
I tried using fishing linenin mine and the girls just removed it. I am experimenting now with foundationless, wax foundation and plastic frames. I did buy some prewired. So I have the whole lot. Will make a decision on whcih to go with over the next few years. Great to know the pros and cons so I can be prepared.
Never had any problems with my bees removing the fishing line. I also coat my fishing line with melted bees wax.
That's interesting, I never really had a problem with that either. Different bees do different things. Thanks for sharing!
Thanks I will try coating the line with wax and see how it goes.
Loveys Bees you must have carpenter bees..with those ya gotta make sure you take all their tools away😎
@@franklotion8 I read that and thought 'what are carpenter bees - must be an american breed' LOL. So I will admit to being a bit slow😜. My little darlings are Itialian but as I graft my own and they mate locally they will be crossed with Carnolian. They are the two breeds we have in New Zealand.
That was what I just found, DRONE COMB on the foundation less! I PURCHASED 2 nucs and it was about 90% worker bees. My second brood box was a medium and I alternated foundation and starter strips. 3 days after they started to make their own comb, I noticed eggs in the comb. 1 week later and 1 foundation less frame is solid, both sides, all drone brood. I understand that is what the hive wants as most of the nuc was workers, but I hope you are right in that it will not affect honey production...
Hello from Slovakia. Foundationless beekeeping will affect the honey production. My experience is, if bees are foundationless they tend to build about 50% of drone comb in spring. This means 50% less workers, more eaters and less honey. It is very difficult to manage such hive in order to avoid them build so many Drone comb... result is rapidly less honey production. The reason why bees naturaly build so many drone comb is probably Need for wide genetic variability...Naturaly, bees do not need that much honey as beekeeper wishes :) ... me - myself I am about to give up foundationless beekeeping because of poor honey production ... :( ... I dropped from 30kg to less then 10kg of honey / hive.
Drill a hole in the top bar preferably the size of a bamboo Barbecue sqewer and push it to the bottom of the frame and this is a support instead of wired foundation
Great tip, thanks!
Can you mix and match? I haven't started beekeeping yet but was thinking black foundation would be good for spotting eggs, lighter for honey and having a couple frameless for comb honey
Cara Crabtree Yes no Problem
Works like a dream.
"$1 a sheet 10 frame box not a math expert but that's $10" shit had me dying WOW 🤦♂️
I'm thinking of only using foundationless for the honey comb so it'll be easier to crush extract the honey
I'm a first year newbee. My hives are split 1/2 foundation 1/2 foundationless. On my foundationless frames I ran fishing line across through each hole. I want to go foundationless totally but didn't want to bet on either without knowing first hand. So far I have no problem with falling beeswax. Or collapsing frames. But my main hive is a bench hive. So when I was having them drawing them out I would checkerboard them.
@Poison Ivy yes in the brood frames but not the honey frames.
Great idea.
the micro instruture of foundation and the bee made one are differ. the foundation was melted and got much solid the natural one, the natural nest was made with tiny piece of wax and full of air. so the foundation is far more weight than natural bee nest.
We have pains in my icon we in Pennsylvania we have bean salon hair and we open the webs that coming out they are tame as ever
@@colleenxethakis1455 what????
So I just watched your very informative video and I was wondering after a year would you say that your pest problem is less?
Do bees sting
Where do I find you harvesting honey utuabe
I am using waxed foundation,(first time beeker/NUC) but I am not sure if some frames should have the larger drone cell foundations?
No because the bees will make drone comb no matter what
@@sierrabravo7368 yea...I figured that out. I haven't been taking care of my bees. I used to really like them...now I kinda want them to die. They stung me a few times & I have to wear a hot ass suit now & I dont like it.
Got thousands in these hives now tho. Hope they figure out how to survive.
I tried foundationless for the first time this year. Never again. Cross comb was a problem and while harvesting yesterday (hot), I had three deep frames collapse. I was only using 9 frames per super so they were fat and beautiful. Not only were they a total loss but I had quite a mess to clean out of the grass so as not to attract robbers.
I use foundationless never have a problem crosscomb happens when there is a wrong spacing, and anyother tilting among frames other than that bees don't have to crosscomb.
Don't harvest or manipulate when it's hot. Get to that early in the morning. I'm in extreme south Louisiana and if we get to it before 1 or 2 there's no issues. Hope that helps.
@@goodcitizen3780 I fear it's just too hot here (sometimes 85+ all night)
@@MrJackwork yeah we get to the point of 90s all night every year. Above 95 with new wax can be a problem. We had record breaking heat last summer and still we managed fine. It's like everything else. Nothing is perfect for everyone. My bees are loathe to build on plastic. Went in some hives today, the bees skipped right over the frames I had in there with plastic foundation started stripes. SMH now if I can only train these ladies...
Eerdd
put frames in nucs that are needing worker COMB to grow ,then remove an use it in hive u want.If not,be prepared for a lot of Drone COMB in my experience
at 4.50,what exactly do you mean by drawing out horizontally,and that they have to start from the middle? why?
im currently building my first hive,and i very much want to do things as naturally as possible. this seems like a no-brainer in that regard. im not even getting a swarm in any other way than el naturelle,il bait a swarm with lemongrass and 2 strips of wax and one 20 cm x 10 cm wax frame. q: do you think i should even leave any wax in a bait hive? it seems like it has greater chance of satisfying the bees if theres any kind of resources there,but not too much,im sure. correct me if im wrong! i love being corrected. the knowledge sticks better when theres an uncomfortable lessen.
thanks,
Pretty much nothing will bait a swarm as well as having comb already in the hive, so if you can, bait with some old brood comb or something. Nothing unnatural about that. Especially considering that the trapped swarm will start building its own stuff soon enough.
As for building horizontally: With foundation, the bees cannot festoon, i.e. hanging from the top and building right above their heads. They need to walk on the foundation and build the pattern out horizontally from the center, meaning the foundation. Now, you can argue whether this actually bothers the bees, but it is no question that it is not their natural way of doing it.
Just watched your video and was thinking about trying to put a chicken mesh around the frame while in was being spun just to hold things in place as it were. Also it might work with a few elastic bands round the frames. I live in Scotland and most of the U.K. use the smaller national frames, though I use langstroth and if I but in bees on national frames, I cut the comb from the national frame and use elastic bands to hold the frame in place until the bees make it fit the larger langstroth frame, though that is in a brood box and not a super for extraction.
ohh thats smart. Good idea
Hay do a video on this.....deep frame with just top 2wires embedded I foundation strip. 3 strips per sheet of deep foundation. Bees build and connect top then festoon off strip building around remaining 2 wires on deep. I’m still figuring how to do a MED frame.
I use all mediums with a few exceptions, so I might not have the opportunity. But I think you have an interesting idea. If you try it, let us know how it works! Thanks for watching!
Lots of excellent information for beginners, and lots of food for thought for more experienced beekeepers! Having seen this before I started out would definitely have saved me some blood, sweat, and stings. :D
Glad I found your channel.
Russ Ian E. Lection-Hacker Thanks for watching!
We have and you are my big fan ever cuz you you make me feel spot me when we have to be happy
Wrap them before spinning with thin wire... should help
Thanks. Great points!
All the above...... My experience as well.
I wire my frames in brood chambers and they don't have the flimsy problem.
Why can't you cut the plastic foundation into about a 2 inch strip and put it in the top Grove and make the foundation go further and at the same time have combed honey? I am learning just bought a langstroth 2 deeps and 1 medium and I am watching a lot of UA-cam , how do you have combed honey if you install a solid plastic foundation
You can absolutely do that. That's a fairly common way to make starter strips. You cannot have comb honey with a full sheet of plastic foundation. On the frames I want comb from I will still use foundationless.
2” I s too much for comb, wax or glue pop sickle sticks,than u have plenty of room for comb honey and some for chunk honey
Do you only take the honey in the super or do you take it all
Sometimes I'll take a frame or two out of the brood box. I always try to leave them enough for winter, though.
Hallo, all beekeepers! From my point of view, the natural honeycomb foundation from bee wax is benefit to honey gains. As everybody knows 1 kg wax is equal to 3 kg honey. And bees are creating >80% of honeycomb from honeycomb foundation. They gives into it only up to 20% new wax. From this reasons our ancestors invented the honeycomb foundation. The more than 140 years old metod of honeycomb foundation production on the barrels (Amos Root in 1875) is suitable for big farms at automatic lines (Edward Weed's 120 year old automatic lines - 2 separate etaps - 1. flat weist role, 2. final weist and cutting - invented in 1895). For home user is used more than 160 years old Johannes Mehring's first metod (invented in 1857) of honeycomb foundation production at desk press. But this metod is by my opinion slow, expensive and arduous. But now exists the new, only 20 years old metod, which was invented by Marek Woś from Poland in 1999. His metod is more suitable, quicker and cheaper for smaller beekeepers with
Can you post the link to where you get your frames?
Ginger Maeson Oops! Sure can. Sorry about that. I’ll put in in the description.
I get my foundationless frames at Brushy Mountain.
www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/
@@falllineridge link doesn't work.
@@BiancoLand_ Brushy Mountain Bee Farm is permanently closed.
@@whatjamesthinks it is disappointing that they ended up closing. I'll probably start buying from Kelley Beekeeping.
www.kelleybees.com/
why is the wax black?
ImAngryMan it’s several years old... each time there is an egg cycle it leaves behind stuff in the comb causing it to look darker over time. If you melt it down the wax would separate from the rest leaving you with bright yellow wax and all the other stuff sinks to the bottom.
@@honey_bee_live please make w video about Slovenian AZ hives
Do you think some races/strains of bees do better than others?
Absolutely.
I have Italian and Carniolan bees down in Texas and both do a good job at building comb themselves.
Of course not! Race is just a social construct.
Check around with different bk in ur area and they will tell u what they think, I am a 2 yr bk and in this area. There seems be varies opinions with car. And Italians being the main ones
I think the downward pointed wedge on the Kelly frame is called a chamfer.
SirTrollingham they no longer sell those
They don't sell the frame anymore but as of last month they were still selling the top bars.
@@goodcitizen3780 How unfortunate, thanks for letting me know.
@@SirTrollingham I'm sure you can mix and match. I'd call or email. That's how I learned that they were still selling the top bars. I'm making my own exclusively now. pretty easy with just a table saw and really it takes very little time. It's almost free.
Awesome video! Thank you. :)
Excelente video amigo muito bom.
That is so interesting and instructive...thanks for posting....an ancient Aussie beek
Glad you enjoyed it!
thanks for educating us sir' nice job sir......
Williamwu is seaying hi
wow this is my second time I have found the honey bee's at my place they swarmed both times I found them in January in a semi-heated shop we have machine shops we keep the heat turn down if we requiter to work on any machines in the building we can heat that building first one we did find them before we started any work in the building and did keep them from dying help with a beekeeper we safe put them in a bee box and them heated the shop up we keep feeling and the heat in the shop
they one now the bees have not been found in the shop but did put a feeder box into a hive box they have moved into that box did find a queen in with them the beekeeper said they more than one bee swarm in here I did pick up thermometer to see were they are hiding there in the walls and the ceiling of the building its a big hives they are in different parts of the building this job has to wait to be done we did manage in wanted we needed to be done for the repairs
I am now busy building new condo developments for the quests in the building they do eat a lot but it for a good cause for my dad he would just kill them off
lucky for them they are on my farm and building have a lot of wild animals come and go throw my place had a couple moose live here and have beaver have been hanging around here again they came up to throw the stream runs throw the farm think they were cut off from were they should be they be hanging out with me now they are a very curious animals I try to keep my distance from them but they came to me I would not mine to put them back to the lake I think they form I think they came from now that we can monitor then when they could go back if they go back is and other questions the found food and place to stay have a dog bed in were they are at the been sleeping on it they can still access the water very easily inside the building have a water wheel inside the shop it open because I heat the building the came up from the hole in the floor its been nice out here I have the big door opening the to beavers are outside running around
they found out they a bigger pest control that's I big pest have a black bear live here too, he came with a shotgun wound in him he was a small cub when he was found he was relocated 2 times and did make it back here did find my own animals did want him to stay they did found lonely without them they mat the bear and think he read the rules to them
the stupid bear know want a beehive is he was stung on his nose as a cub was busy getting the honey from them but he pissed off yellow jacket bees were raiding that hive the beekeeper was told about it and we did found the yellow jackets close by and taking care of them too and the bear took care of the hive as well think the first time was the bees from that hive the beekeeper was not sure because of the queen was not marked and was small swarm to be again with
the beekeeper said the hives been the for 5 years or longer too never seen any bee's around there the beekeeper has been checking up on the hives as well gets the kick out of the animals I have and does like the bee condo as well did name each hive and give each frame the apartment number as well as a CNC machine I can do all the cutting too he well buy the bees and the hives from me he said he has new queens on the way too
I am not making them to make money for, just for the bee's them self I am building them for they will go out to a new home someplace would keep them but to many nosey animals here its bad that my friends have made posters of the animals and put them up as a joke have to give them credit I mean the animals the skunks take the cake each time they know if the window is open on their vehicle they have a ride in there think they plans were to escape but they had to look were they were off to my friend to call me to pick them up I had got to the city and stayed with them for a week did not miss that one at all he did like the dog doors around the block eat well in the city
he was busted when he came out to see me, the neighbours thought it was a joke at first like all the clown he did had to leave smell there but did have a swim in out of the neighbour's pool was not that smelly after that
why I had to stop and leave the windows and the locks unlock and the truck running to do some shopping the truck secretary system that in the truck keep the truck safe did have a person try to take it but the secretary did keep him in driving off with it
they did have to call the police and have him arrested the skunk was upset that he was not allowed in the cars the grocery store did manage to give my grocery to me, and the skunk got carrots to eat as well I do take some to schools and a hospital too they know how to beg for food the bear think he has not eaten for a long time acts like he does not
my food bill is very high to feed all of them to have a meat market does help out with most of the bear food too and the donut shop as well save the donuts for all who wants them have a Canadian goose thought it was there but the bear put a stop to that the first to see if he wants it and then it may be yours had a wolf cub found when we were out riding in the mountains it did make it home with me but did return it back to were it was found health it back to a healthy life miss he a lot the rancher have to seem him around and did find that he with other wolf and they think I come back for him in spring I will go and see him and if he does want to come back it to him as long as he shares the back of the truck with the bear or maybe ride in the cab with me I will see planning on taking the horses up there too the bear and the skunks will come to the porkypine doe like to walk that far at one time so he a home secretary
have employee's work on the place the pincushion he know as will make sure they work hard slave driver they said when I have gone more like a pig pincushion I think he is my dog does not care now what comes on the properties now too my cats have moved to my brother place too had a hurt cougar that when the last straw with the cats the cougar got better and lift on her own will do have to be taking in for 3 days for her teeth to get better somehow she knew she could get better I know she been around again because she in my house throw the dog door
I'm with Rick, I'm sorry Jennifer, except that grammar and punctuation are not the only problem! For example, what does " ... donuts for all who wants them have a Canadian goose thought it was there but the bear put a stop to that the first to see if he wants it and then it may be yours had a wolf cub found ..." even mean??
At first you said don’t use wire and now you say use it . I’m confused
Michael Mueller Use wire if you want to extract honey from the frame. Don’t use wire if you want cut comb.
Fall Line Ridge thank you
Informative thank you
I will try it one or 2 times thanks
Are you a firefighter?
Nice instructive video.
Personally use Kenyan Top Bar Hives without frames thereby avoiding lot of the 'cons'
Good saying about the drones!
Thanks for watching!
You should be more concerned with pesticides in the food you eat instead of pesticides in the wax you do not eat.
FYI, there are many, many people who DO EAT THE COMB. People who buy “comb honey” usually eat the comb.
I eat the wax
I love you
I use mainly foundationless and run through extractor on a regular basis without blowouts...it's all about IF the frames are setup well...check out my channel for the better way to set up foundationless properly!!!! Also, the hives don't need to be perfectly level either...
Thank you for watching. I watched a few of your videos but did not find the one you were referring to. Feel free to post the title here so we can watch it. Edit: Found it. I've seen that skewer idea before. Great video.
I run topbar hives, cross bar is a way of life LOL
Is there an easy way to clean plastic foundation brood combs. I was trying to harvest wax off old plastic foundation brood combs this summer and it was a pain in the butt. You can’t dip the frames in hot water or the plastic foundation will warp. It is also hard to scrape the wax of the plastic foundation, hence all the cocoons.
Herschberger Jacob ua-cam.com/video/AcdbwOqnZLQ/v-deo.html
You can clean them with a pressure washer or steam cleaner after the plastic is clean you can re coat them with wax and use them again.
i am foundationless because i 'd never bought the foundation with pure wax, bees dont like it and it is harmful to human body if i eat it in.
you had mentioned the foundations need to be level but Ithink you meant plumb but a good video anyway
The hives need to be level, which would in turn make the frames plumb. 🤓
I never completely level. I leave them tipped a little to one side as well as to the entrance. I haven't had issues. It's pretty quick to do too
For me, it would have been nice if you explained what foundationless beekeeping was and how it differed from...non-foundation...less? Foundational?
Bob Levittan if the frame doesnt have a pre-fabricated foundation for the bees to build on, it’s foundationless.
Pretty bloody simple concept mate
Does he need to explain what a bee is too?
I have tried both foundationless and foundation frames. Both plastic and wood. I have had much better success using foundation, especially wood. Just my perspective on things. The bees have to really work hard and expend a lot of energy building out comb in an empty frame. And, the frame can be tricky to uncap while keeping the integrity of the cells for future use.. They can really take a beating in the extractor, too.
Hey I am Melissa
Ken Hall can Hearts be a really good honey bee for people to eat the honey can all kind of bees be a good honey we source for people
Audiobank fan
Hey
Do hot dang Hans?
My name is Alyssa I from from
Dinosaur song
You say that plastic foundation is expensive in reality it is cheap as you can use it many times. After the wax month has don its job just clean it off with a pressure washer and re coat it with bees wax and put in either in a new frame or if the old frame is solid use it again.
Good way to look at it. Thanks for watching!
If you want we want to join you
Hi Mom they both said yes it does stink and the spot rates and be good honey