Victron energy multiplus-2, DO NOT MAKE THIS MISTAKE.
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- Опубліковано 6 тра 2022
- In a previous video before we went to Daytona Beach bike week I had installed a Victron energy Multiplus 2 3000 watt inverter. while in Daytona we had an issue with the terminal blocks connections overheating and melting the blocks away. I contacted Northern Arizona wind and sun and they authorized a warranty through Victron energy. So now I have a brand new unit and I'm going to make the necessary corrections to hopefully prevent this failure in the future. Although this is not a common problem with the Multiplus unit, I'm hoping that I can share my experience and prevent others who may install this unit to avoid making the mistake that I made. Below is a link to the original installation video.
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Glad you seem to have gotten it fixed, however, you've opened yourself up to the *potential* of creating a new problem. The crimp sleeves you used are not designed or intended for that purpose. What you used is designed for, intended for, and UL listed for combining several bare ground wires. They are not intended to be used as a ferrule. The crimping tool that it seems like you used for the crimp sleeves provides a substandard crimp that is almost certainly not uniform around the circumference of the conductor, and therefore may result in a high resistance connection. The result of that you've already experienced once before...HEAT. I would strongly suggest you purchase the proper ferrules and the proper crimping tool for those ferrules and redo what you have. It will make a MUCH more durable connection, far superior to what you have. Otherwise, you may have a technician tell you that once again, it's your fault, because you used the wrong components and the wrong tool. Search for "#6 AWG Ferrule" (or the appropriate size for your conductors). You find the right parts, as well as the proper tool.
Thank you for the info Ben.
@@amsoiladam
Yes the only farrells I used were on the PV charge controllers.
Although I still find it hard to believe that a little bit of rubber caused that meltdown! 🤔
But again I’m no expert and only built one off grid system.
Agree that you need to use the correct item to crimp on. They are called bootlace crimps and get the correct tool. May I also suggest you replace the AC out piece of cable with the same type as your AC in cable as the higher strand count will be better.
Yep - they are not the correct cable ferules
Also the product manual isn't an electricians school book, so that's why it does not mention obvious things every electrician knows about... 😆 Still a very good and useful vid thanks Adam.
Sorry to see the struggle. I will say that the ferrules you used are probably going to cause the same issue. The ferrules to use actual crimp the wires in perfect squares to fit nicely in the inverters terminals.
Just my two🤙🏼
Others have already suggested that you use the proper ferrule or risk a repeat problem, so I'll elaborate on wire selection. Even people in the electrical field often don't know the potential problems with solid vs, stranded, vs fine stranded wire. Some connectors are designed for only solid wire. Some are designed for solid or stranded but NOT finely stranded wire. Some can be used for finely stranded or stranded but NOT solid. If the terminal is not rated for solid you do not want to use a ferrule because you are essentially making a stranded wire into a solid one. Most connectors will accept solid and stranded but not finely stranded and that's where most of the issues arise. Stranded would be wire with 7 or 19 strands, 30+ would be finely stranded. Finely stranded is common like in SO cable or welding cable. The BIGGEST issue is simply finding out what type of wire a particular terminal is designed for. Sometimes that info is even hard to find in the terminal manufacturers data sheets. In your original failure, looking at the damaged cable it looks like the connector pinched the insulation and not the conductor and the only reason it worked at all is because it was barely making contact. Without knowing anything specific on the connector ratings, I would recommend to replace the fine strand wires with 19 strand and not use any ferrules because you don't have the correct ferrules or crimper. Wire strip length IS a common problem with electrical terminals whether too short or too long. Using a screwdriver or pick in your case to hold the spring open while inserting the wire is good practice. These types of spring cage terminals are becoming more popular because you are assured of having the correct wire clamping force (and fewer meltdowns), whereas a screw type terminal relies on the user using a torque screwdriver to the proper torque. The problem with these spring cage terminals is that you can strip the wire too short, insert it, and not be able to see that it is pinching the insulation and making a poor connection. Sometimes you'll get lucky and it won't make any connection at all and you'll then find and correct the problem. Other times you end up in the situation you found yourself in...
in other words they are ''crap'' ,some screwdows could do with improvemen, i always fold the wire over itself so the screw doesn't damage'' business part of wire....
You can use AC wiring on these AC terminals, which is a solid wire instead of stranded. The solid wire doesn't need a ferrule. Make sure to use 6AWG like the manual specifies, they will fail after install if you use lesser, stranded wires (with no ferrule).
Very good explanation. One of the problems with running solid wire around a screw type connection, people wrap the wire around the screw so the wire crosses over itself. Then when the screw is tightened the wire cuts through itself.
This unit is rated for 3000 watts or 25 amps, with momentary peak at 8000 watts or 66 amps. I'm surprised that the spring AC connector is UL and/or ABYC rated for this load. Even if the connector is rated I would be surprised to see the PC board that could handle 25 amps for very long.
I installed a unit a couple months ago in a boat and used stranded 10 gauge to a load panel. After watching Amsoil's video and reading a few comments here, I'm going to run a high load test and measure the heat on these terminals. Last thing I want is a fire out on the water.
@@Bonaventure2AK That's not how it works, based on your comments, you seem confused about how much power passes through those terminals when plugged into a huge shore connection, way more than the inverter can produce. If you used 10GA, you did it wrong, and need to start over. When you start over, read the instructions first. After that, follow them. Manual specifies 6GA for this wire, and you put a 75A breaker on it (9 KW PLUS add'l surge). Rough stranded (6GA romex) works great.
The inverter/charger integrates a 50A transfer switch and it works very very well--if you're having trouble, I am sorry.
The fires are caused by people who didn't strip enough insulation, if you're unsure, please make sure you did.
But you need to replace that 10GA with 6GA romex also. I did the exact same thing when I got my first multiplus II. It didn't start on fire, but the spring contacts stopped transmitting power until I pulled them out and replaced them with stiffer 6GA wires instead. The exact same thing happened on my AC-in as well as my AC-out 1 until I used the correct wire, 10GA doesn't work reliably.
This inverter isn't UL listed, why would you make the assumption?
I just installed this unit on my 5th wheel. Tested everything but defiantly going to do a longer test pulling more amps and checking for heat at those connections. I was a little worried about my connections so I looked in the manual and it said wires should be stripped .7 inch. Thanks for your video, it does'nt take much to burn one of these rigs down!
I hope it all goes well for you, with the changes I made everything is been working really good so far
Awesome video my friend!
That's what good friends do..put it out there that a mistake was made and don't do what I did..
Great for the company to step up and help out.
UA-camrs..the good ones like yourself are their voice on these matters..alot of people watch you and helps them (the company) out in the long run..free PR!!
Great job as usual my friend!
Keep on keepin' on!!
Thank you George, hopefully I will save somebody some hassle
Thanks for the info. I have just purchased the same one along with new solar and more Lithium batteries. Getting ready to install and I’m sure glad I came across your video.
Thank you for watching, I’m glad that you found value in it.
I just ordered this same unit from them today. The guy was very helpful. Told them I saw it on your video.
that’s awesome Patrick, I appreciate the referral, maybe someday they will support the channel.
Very good video! thanks for sharing. I'm about to install one for a friend and since I have the original I had no idea they changed lug input on the AC side.
FYI: Ferrules are for fine stranded cable, the cable you are using for AC OUT does not require a ferrule and will likely be detrimental to connectivity.
Agreed. The first cable looked like it required a ferrule. The second cable was "solid" strand, and should of been pushed in without a ferrule.
Im an electrical mate, and work on industrial electrics.
True
This guy, good call! 6AWG solid core is perfect in these terminals, that's what I use and it's what the manual specifies (6AWG).
Swist wire tight ,dah! Standard practice
I agree with you on the use of friction type connectors. What's even more is that a ferrule might tend to prevent more strands from contacting the spring loaded friction connector. And if that is true you may burn another unit. I agree with you on the use of lugs rather than those connection points that you cannot see. I'd much rather have a Sigineer, or Aims.
I ordered a victron on Amazon. When I saw the connection on the unit, I sent it back and got a different inverter with studs
What unit did you go with?
Thanks for sharing Adam, I have the same inverter, but I used a full #6 wire for the ground
Great video Adam thanks for sharing stay safe 👍
New subscriber here. I have always thought Victron was made better than the rest. I am glad the distributor and manufacture supported you. I am with you on the ferrule usage. I plan on using those on solar charge controllers as well. All the best! Thanks for your video.
Yes I was really impressed that they decided to warranty it. And since then the system has been added onto and everything has been working very well. Victron is top quality for sure. I know it’s more expensive than some of the others but you definitely get what you pay for.
The first generation yes. The mulptiplus 2. Its a joke
Definitely a New PCB on the Old Unit is required, That's totally amazing that they covered that on the warranty 👍 Victron is the unit I like but I go for a Quattro 15,000W 230V unit 48V with Victron MPPT 250V/100A terminal type Victron or BYD Batteries
Thanks for caring about helping others of us who may do the same thing.
Hopefully it helps
Your a top bloke for sharing this Adam ! I will certainly be adding a "service loop" into the wiring prior to termination for stress relief.
Glad to help
One thing to watch for on those push in type connectors: If the exposed wire is too short, you could shove some of the wire covering into the connector. This would partially pry the connector apart and reduce the amount of current it can handle. I personally dislike this type of connectors. They use these reduced force connectors in cars to make it easier to install wiring but I've had several in a dodge and chevy melt when the blower was cranked up and stayed there. Just too much current. I've also had a fire melt an electric clothes dryer power cable because the wiring in the fuse box was a poor connection. It was old so fibration could have loosened the connection, the copper wires oxidized or the screws were never torqued to begin with. Just venting, hope this is helpful.
That is what I think happened.
Ahhh.....the easy life a of motorcycle vendor lol. Really cool that the company stepped up and warrantee the system. That says a lot about their business ethics. Good stuff man!
Sailors use either Victron or Mastervolt systems. Both systems are excellent.
Yes fiction has a fantastic reputation and that’s why I was willing to pay a little bit more to get this unit as opposed to one of the Chinese units.
Yeah when I notified them of the problem I really expected them to say that it was installer error and that they couldn’t help me. I was very surprised and thankful that they were able to warranty the item
I learned a valuable lesson! Thank you for posting !
Glad it was helpful!
Yikes, that ranks high on the pucker factor meter! Glad you caught it quick and I agree, that's an odd connection terminal for your ac out. My multiplus and quattro units use stud and ring terminals for ac and dc. I guess victron went with that clamp style on the multiplus 2's to save space (?)
I've had great experiences with NAWS as well. James and Logan are fantastic.
Thanks for sharing!
Thanks for watching
Adam, you’re assumption is absolutely correct and I would bet you did everything correctly. Those spring connections are horse shit and should be screw thread lugs.
The burning is caused by a loose connection and as the temperature goes up with amperage and loose spring connection, the cheap spring metal loses even more of it’s spring strength and the problem spirals out of control.
Heat up a safety pin and watch it lose it’s spring strength.
Keep in mind that the metals needed to make strong spring connections are nothing like the metals needed to make the best electrical connections.
They say not enough extra bare wire hanging past the shark bite…I say bullshit, it was a weak shark bite connection.
Thank you for sharing your knowledge
Glad you got it fixed. I’m pretty sure the installation manual mentions using ferrules.
Thanks for explaining this issue you had, just about to hook one of these up in my campervan.
Glad I could help
Nice of you to share the info to make sure no one else runs into the same issue.
Thanks for sharing your precious experience! Cheers from Ukraine!
awesome glad you got it installed Adam dont need those problems at the rallies.
I hope not anymore
Two small things, if you have wires without a solid core (which is common in Europe for cabling) always use ferrals if you don't have special connectors like eg. Wago clamps. As for crimping I preferr the hexagonal crimpers, create cooler connections here.
And the most important one, if you have connections that are loaded to or near max, use an IR cam to make a quick check... They are cheap compared to the equipment that burned up and you can also check if cabling is ok (it's perfectly fine if it's just a usb ir cam that you attach to your phone)
Btw... If you'd use the victron quattro you can have your backup generator automatically used.
Thank you for the input, the multi +2 also is able to start and stop a generator when necessary and I’ve also recently installed the cerbo GX which also has that function as well
Screw terminals have shown to fail in the automotive and rail industry through vibration. Spring loaded contacts are the norm and stop the cable from working loose and are used widely in these industries. This is a good modification to the original screws.
Ruryryrytÿryrry
Had to watch this because I completed my install with the same inverter just recently. I’m happy to report that I noted all the issues you encountered here but fortunately, my instincts forced me to make the corrections before applying power. I replaced my 6/3 THHN wire bundles with 6/4 SGX like I see you using. So much easier to work with. When trying to apply ferrules, I noted that 1) they were too short and 2) after crimping I could see gaps between the conductor and the ferrule. I didn’t like that so my solution was to tin the leads with silver solder and then using a small screw driver to pry open the port (you showed the same with your pick tool) to insert the conductor. I did all of this while the Victron Inverter was on the shop bench and I could verify connectivity and they passed the “pull test”. It made the install a bit tricky with both wire bundles coiled up and hanging down, but with planning and careful execution, I got it in.
I’ve tested my install several times here at home and on a couple of shake down cruises and haven’t had an issue. I’ve loaded the inverter up almost to the point of overload and tested the 4/0 cables and the 6/4 SGX cables with my IR temp gun and they were fine. Fingers crossed they remain stable. Thank you for this production and I’m happy to see that your solutions were similar to my install. I can rest easy knowing that I didn’t do something that could be a problem later. Cheers!!
Glad to here Jim, since making these corrections my system has been working very well.
@@amsoiladam Great news! Nothing better when it’s humming along.
That was interesting. Good to know. Thanks for the video. Take care
Thank you, I know that it may not be beneficial to all of my viewers but somebody searching out there may find a useful
Do not use ferals with that inverter, the cause of the first failure was because the wire was not stripped enough, This is a good connection that will stay tight forever, unlike a screw terminal.
Incorrect. Their manuals specifically state to use ferrules.
It’s because your ground is the most important art of the system, I don’t know how many systems I’ve gone to fix for others, where they installed it, the ground was bad and toasted everything else. Ground #1 priority!
Yes I agree, being automotive mechanic in a motorcycle mechanic all my life I understand how critical grounds are. One background can make the whole system go wacky
I usually strip the outer insulation of the cable way more. Let's say 4". Use the excess length to make a 360 degree curl towards you to allow each wire to move independent from each other. It will make mounting easier and there is less risk of mechanical stress since each wire can move independent form the others.
Thank you for the info
This is the way
Geeze man, I hope it all works out for you from here forward. You seem to have had a run of bad luck, hopefully you’re still smiling. Thanks for making this YT. 👍
The inverter has been working great ever since the re-install
@@amsoiladam I’m happy to hear that brother. I was watching your content because my wife and I are about to embark on building a place on a bit of land we have in the wilderness (Tasmania Australia). We will be completely off grid for all the usual things, power, water, sewerage and even be setting up a greenhouse to grow some veggies. I like the Victron gear, I was leaning that way.
I might keep a good sized solar generator handy in the event of a failure. The solar generator will come in handy to drag around the property in the back of my farm utility vehicle in case I want power away from the homestead for something.
Your example has shown me that it doesn’t hurt to have a backup option.
Take care & good luck with it all 👍
@@GR8Tmate Sounds like a really cool project, I hope it all works out for you. Are you putting it all on UA-cam as you do it?
@@amsoiladam My wife wants to do that but I am not a very public person……Although I’m not sure that’s the right way to say it. I enjoy chatting to folks like you on UA-cam but I’m not the guy that would be good at doing g like what you do. It actually feels like I take from UA-cam but don’t give back 🤦♂️😂 Weird, nobody has ever asked me before.
I am terrible with technology, computers, camera etc (sounds like excuses) but I’m just not that guy. I guess I’ve always thought that nobody would be interested in what I’m doing, I’ve got no Facebook, no Instagram, none of those apps. When I first retired I travelled full time around Australia for almost 7 years…..nothing 😂. I will confidently add I didn’t take one photo either 🤣 (My wife did).
Something is wrong with me ? 😬
I do watch a few channels on UT with people in the states, Canada etc Homesteading, farming, sustainable living, solar etc.. maybe I should 😳 Totally out if my comfort zone mate, totally!
@@GR8Tmate if you look back at my early videos. I was terrible. I was the guy that never wanted to be in front of the camera even for family photos I will try to run and hide. If you put a wrench in my hand I can fix just about anything you give me a keyboard and I am totally lost. I’ve had to teach myself along the way how to do the editing and what not. But the more you do it the more comfortable you become with it. Your project sounds like it could be very interesting as well as be helpful to other people out there that might be trying to do the same thing. All I can tell you is go for it you just might enjoy it
Thanks for the heads up!
Thanks for the very important tip.
I hope it helps
Ha Adam. sorry for your equip meltdown. For the feral's, they make feral crimpers that do a lot better job crimping the ferals than some pliers or whatever you used. the crimped ferals should reform the wire and feral into a long square shape. properly crimped ferals look way different than your new wire ends in the video. amazon has these crimpers and various lengths of ferals. good luck on the replacements. I had to learn this lesson also. I also recheck all electrical connections tightness every 6 months or so. I always check new install connections after putting a new piece of gear into service. There should be torque specs for all the connections.
Yes, thank you for the input, at the time I did not have the proper feral crimper. So the idea was just to keep the stray strands organized and it has been two years now since this video posted and I’ve had zero issues with the system since.
i am on my second victron first was victron multy plus 12 2000 80 on more than one occasion i have triped 30 amp shore power using pass through never a problem with the lugs screws at all two years of service. Live aboard vessel i am so glade i seen this before i got any futher on installing a multy plus II 24 3000 70 Its still in the box
I will say, that once I made these corrective measures, the system has worked 100% perfect since
Great tip! 8:19, I'm also OCD, I would get an insulation cutter to neaten things up. The 12V system will get hot, those cables are handling a lot of current.
Yes, that’s why I upgraded everything to 4/0
Push it in as far as it can go.
Thanks for the video.
Mate, with the amount of power you’re consuming, consider moving from using 12v to 48v or at least 24v. Using higher voltage means lower currents and hence less heat on connectors. Also you won’t have to use such heavy gauge wires. It may be expensive to do but in the long run, it will pay dividends
Originally I had planned a 24 V inverter. Because Goliath was already wired with a 24 V battery bank. And the solar array was wired series parallel to 24 V as well. But unfortunately victron did not make a copper bowl converter with a 24 V input. Hindsight be in 2020 I probably should’ve went to the 48 V. But none of that would’ve changed the problem that I had. And since doing these repairs the entire system has been working flawlessly.
Many thanks for the good advise however, besides this particular problem which you have clarified for us all, I always tend to put a round loop on any wire that connects to a circuit board both for flexibility and against any potential stretching that might occur by a pulled external cable.
That’s a great idea, unfortunately the way this particular unit is designed it was very difficult to get leads into the terminals as it was, there just isn’t enough room to work with.
@@amsoiladam Watch the video from Current Connected for a great example of this... Yes, it's a pain, I agree.
@@incredibleyoutubehandle Funny you mention that Mark, I watched that video last night
@@incredibleyoutubehandle current connected video link ua-cam.com/video/xpXxVSlMSnQ/v-deo.html
Its nice that they warrantied it for you. Oh yah... it was fairly obvious from where the damage began (at the terminal block), but it is doubly clear from that picture of the wires that you didn't have enough lead-out stripped. If you look at that red one, the insulation shorted through from the pressure of the terminal almost twice the wire-length from what you stripped. And yet there was still good insulation further up towards the stripped part of the wire. That means there was pressure on the insulation behind that point from the terminal block when there shouldn't have been any contact at all with the insulation. What almost certainly happened is that the friction terminal rode-up on the insulation when you pushed the wire in and lost pressure on the 'good' part that you had stripped, resulting in arcing.
So you definitely did not strip enough wire. This is making me nervous, actually.... tonight after the solar shuts down I am going to re-check all the connections into my solar inverter which use a similar mechanism. To make sure that I stripped enough insulation(!).
-Matt
Yes I definitely learned my lesson on that one. But since I made the repair it has been working flawlessly
I am an engineer that designs power electronics. Some years ago, I designed a product with similar terminal blocks. It was a mistake.
When terminated perfectly, they work but it is really easy to not be perfect. It is also nearly impossible to know if the wire has been terminated properly, especially by end users. For similar voltage/current connections - I now use dual screw blocks, lugs, and even custom machined blocks to be more reliable.
I also use Victron gear and love them. They should re-consider using these terminal blocks in my opinion, the rest of the design is really robust.
Agree. 35 yrs electrical experence. Ill take screw terminals anytime over spring connectors.
@@RVSparky Yes and no. Of course proper instructions on how to use either are important too, and insisting on correct cable types, not just sizes. Proper spring terminals will never work loose over time, especially in vibration prone areas. And spring terminals will never damage the cable as screw terminals can often do.
Then you could add a can of worms about tightening torques.
In many respects a simple old lug/crimped terminal is great....but then the user still needs proper lugs and crimp tools. And as this video shows, he seems to have no proper crimping tools for the incorrect ferrule/lugs he tried to use.
A good spring type termination like Wago, is almost idiot proof. ( almost, nothing is though )
But surprised there were no instructions about terminations, unless he never read them ?
Thanks for this information and video
Most welcome
Few years ago I had contact with a technician from Phoenix (who I believe is the manufacturer of that type of PCB connector mounted on the Multiplus-II). I had a project working with Phoenix SPT spring loaded connectors and they where NOT recommending using ferrules when using spring-cage connections on heavy loads.
My project was concerning high DC loads in 12V systems, but If you can check the P/N number on the damaged mutliplus and look into the datasheet from Phoenix you would get all recommendations i believe.
Hello again!
I will get my 3 Multiplus-II for a offgrid 3 phase system next week, I will look into which type of connector there is and contact the same guy at Phoenix and see if he has any recommendations! I will also run some heavy loads from time to time, so I want it to work! Thanks again for your video!
Thank you for the information. Ever since I made the correction in this video the system has been working flawlessly
These terminals work great with solid core 6AWG wire, no ferrule needed. Everybody here who is trying to convince everybody else to use ferrules are the blind following the blind.
Your right, I’m working at Phoenix Contact as Well.. used prescribed stripping length and open terminal well with your screw driver, and you have a life long proper connected wire, absolutely shock proof..;)
Thanks for sharing this. I am contemplating buying one of these and was not happy about the type of push connector they use. I'm on 230v ac so half the current and cable size you work with, so hopefully less potential for such issues. If they must use push connectors, I wish they used a lever type, like Wago lever connectors, rather than having to use a spike in a hole. Glad you had a decent dealer to help you out.
I will say that after I made the corrections in this video I have had absolutely zero trouble with any of the connections
Yeah this sketchs me out as well, maybe I'll buy the old multiplus instead.
@@john0270 Update. I recently purchased a multiplus 2 in the UK ans itr has traditional screw terminals, much to my relief. So maybe they decided to ditch the new fangled ones or maybe it depends on what country their sold in?
If the grapping connector part of the Victron inverters are flat and the ferrule is round, it only makes contact on 2 places. When it still was the multistrand cable, it would be squeezed over the whole length on top and bottom. This would be a better connection in my opinion.
12:20 Well, i can understand your concerns, and for high power fixed installations, it's still standard to use screw bolts in most of the cases... But additionally it usually entails you to fasten those bolts to a very specific torque for optimal connectivity and safety..
Those 'Cage-Clamp' connectors on the other hand, are - if handled correctly - usually a way better solution for smaller loads, even up to your 50amp boxes. They always provide a defined amount of pressure, usually even provide a small edge to break oxydation on conductors and they're way easier to handle, especially if you change things from time to time.
Maybe look out for some WAGO vs Wirenut comparison clips on youtube. Even on the heating and melting side, wagos and other cage-clamp connectors usually come out as first in terms of security and easy handling. ;)
Juste some 2 cents from someone others ocd. ;)
Thank you
Yep, they work very very well transmitting 50A, you just have to use 6AWG wire (like the manual says), and the correct wire for permanent AC install (solid core).
Excellent Tutorial!
Thank you Antonio.
I agree, you need marine grade wire and the proper ferrules with a proper ferrule crimper.
As an industrial electrican iv used these same terminals one other point is to make sure the jacket of the wires is cut back so the insulated wire is exactly straight in to these terminals cocking them reduces the surface area that the spring can contact wire / furrel, less surface area will produce more heat for given amperage.
the spring terminals in these are great verses screw terminals with viberation spring will give constant pressure screw will loosen with the vibration going down the road or if machinery viberates.
Thank you for the info, I greatly appreciate it.
I really dislike these types of connectors. The screw down seem much less prone to error
I definitely agree
when you are testing your system, try using a thermal tester (infrared) to see if the connector and cables for getting too hot.
It’s been working great for months. But I do like the idea of using a thermal camera
I 100% agree with you those plastic wire connections should be lugs. There should be a heavy tinned crimped lugs on the end of each wire and those thread on to a lug that is the safest and most secure conection
Thank you chris
I am switching from a multiplus i to a multiplus ii inverter. Im not sure why they used this style connector on the multiplus ii instead of the connector on the multiplus i. I will take greater care in connecting the wires to make sure we do not have a problem. Thanks for sharing your experience here. Larry
I’m glad you found some benefit in the video Larry
I bought a Victron Multiplus II from Battleborn Batteries in March of this year. Installed it in my rig in April. Started camping in May at a frequency of 5 days camping and 3 days home, so been giving the rig a fair amount of use. 50/50 dry camping and hookups. We are currently camping and are going through a heat wave as is most of the country. The AC has been running a lot. Yesterday, I went to the store while my wife stayed with the rig. When I got back, she told me that everything turned off in the rig, then came right back on again. I took a look at the Victron app and saw that we were inverting. Checked the shore power and it was fine. Opened up my multiplus and found the neutral lead of the input terminal had fried. No other lead was affected.
My question is, has your second unit been okay with what you did to try to prevent the problem again?
I do not think that you or I had done anything wrong. I had about 5/8” of bare wire in that terminal. I think it’s simply a very poor design. It needs screw down terminals, period. Sorry for the long message.
I can see where on the first one it was probably my fault for not making good connections. However since the repairs in this video it has been working flawlessly
The manual for the multiplus II clearly states input and output connections are to have ferrule pin crimps applied to the ends of the cable with a length of 0.7 inches. But they're not stating that what you should really be using is finally stranded wire like the SOOW cable you have for one of your connections. You don't force those cables into the spring connections you should release the spring tension with a small flathead screwdriver first, then insert the wire with ferrule crimps on it into each termination and release the spring. This has got to be done correctly or people are going to start having fires.
I think people have gotten lucky. Keep in mind that this is a European design and in Europe wiring is not done the same way as here in the United States. Everything is 240 volts or higher and therefore wire size is typically smaller for delivering the same amount of wattage.
Yes, I realize my mistake after the first install. Once completing the corrections made in this video everything has been working perfect
Adam you made this harder than you needed too my experience as a electronic technician to solves this problem i would just apply a good even coat of solder to the expose copper and than insert them leads into there location and no need for sleeves
Actually, most of the experts, that I’ve talk to recommend that you absolutely do not use solder on the ends because it causes more problem. And I don’t really see how soldering is any easier than crimping on a ferral
That is fine for electronic circuits where the current is very low. On higher amperage circuits, you don't ever want to count on solder.
Suggest you rewire ASAP to prevent more problems. Look into marine wiring standards : domestic solid wire cable is a very bad idea in vibration prone environments - it will stress fracture. You should be using flexible cable, such as Arctic grade and ferrule sleeves that go the full depth of the socket.
Everything is full depth now and the whole house is wired with solid core Romax style wire. I can’t rewire the whole thing
Biggest issue I could see that you had was settling. Fine stranded wire like first install will flatten out when you screw it down, but will flatten out a bit more and settle a bit even just with time. The ferrules would have helped more with that install than with the second one, but still useful. Looking more reliable now. That loose ferrule that went over the insulation was for a larger gauge cable.
The same or similar terminals are used in industrial automation wiring from Phoenix Contact, Wago, Weidmuller, and Weind (all German I think), w/ Phoenix known for green. You can use crimped ferrules (I do), mainly to avoid a stray strand sticking out, but most electricians insert the bare stranded end. I use ferrules w/ a plastic collar (Digi-key catalog). Even with a ferrule, I never just push the wire in, rather hold the spring open via thin screwdriver in the release slot, as you did on this 2nd pass.
I recall the spring-cage type are usually only for ~10 A max and ~16 awg wire. For power wiring, the terminals usually have a screw clamp. Seems a bad choice for Victron to use spring-type for such high currents. I would worry as the system ages and the wires corrode.
It’s been about a year and a half or more since I made this video, and since I made these corrections, the system has worked absolutely flawlessly
Bro you are a saint Your OCD attention to detail is a salutary warning to all DIYers. Any kind of joint in high current needs careful attention. Those Cheap Charlie grip terminals are a disgrace. Victron should hang its head in shame. I suspect Victron knew about their shabby design which is why they sent you a replacement under gaurantee PDQ. Bolted terminals are the answer as you said. I would rip out those grip terms and replace with bolted ring terms. They are visible, you can inspect them. You dont know what goes on inside the grip terms. The Boaty Boys are very particular about connections as they are in marine salty air. Clean and sand the term surfaces and bolt up quickly, then cover in Si grease to keep out moisture. Maybe one of those Flir type clone IR cameras ca $200 you plug into your Iphone might help to survey for hot spots when running on full load. Seems a necessary tool for peace of mind (after all you blew $1700 of kit.)
I will say that at this point has been more than a year and a half almost 2 years since I’ve made these corrections, and the entire system has worked flawlessly
THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU. Have two Quattros on order and I would have been in the same dang boat. (a $7,000 boat wo the pull of a channel ... ouch!)
Thank you for watching, I’m glad to provide some benefit
It's possible to replace those connectors, probably made in Germany 🇩🇪 or Netherlands 🇳🇱, you will probably need a proper desolder station & you will need to get all the carbon deposits off the PCB's or you can have tracking problems, I've repaired worse than that in my past,
If your doing the repair yourself please be aware you don't damage the PCB,
I agree the connections on those units would be best with nut & bolt connectors 👍 I was working in the Aerospace Defence industry were very aware of things that can be improved as a Electronics Manufacturing Hardware Test Engineer... your 100% right ✅ improvements can be made on those units.
I would love to repair it because I have another project that it would work well on. However I don’t do much with electronics repair and circuit boards. I would likely need someone to repair it for me that’s experienced in that
@@amsoiladam those connections would probably have to use what is known as a solder pot to remove all together without PCB damage Because of the large connectors heat would spread into the connectors hence why you need special equipment
@@CoolMusicToMyEars thank you for the info, hopefully I can find somebody local to me that can do it someday
Those connectors are great, I do not use ferrules, max contact is with the multi strand wire, do not use low strand count “hard wire”. Use a small electricians screwdriver to open the contacts and Bobs yer uncle. (I see your point re ring terminals)
Ref commentry from 20:28 onwards. Quite sure that AC-Out is bigger than AC-In because of Power Assist capability of the MultiPlus II. What this means is that max current coming from grid/generator (AC-In) will be added to by the inverter itself (from batteries) in order to provide an even larger current on the AC-Out. Hope this makes sense.
Yes it does, thank you
Good vid, nice try, glad to see they honoured the warranty for ya, you have had a shite load of troubles I’m sorry to hear so I am not going to rattle on about the ferrule situation, there is plenty of good guidance in above comments. I will add however to ur comment about why they dont have robust exposed terminals on the input/output terminals as they do on the battery terminals, ‘Code’ would not allow such exposure of high voltage conductors/terminals, 120v/240v can kill, 48v is considered reasonably safe/low voltage in regard to shock hazard. It is a good title for discussion though, as I am sure many people have made similar mistakes, but probly mostly have been lucky and get away with it for now. Thanks for ur time here, and nice looking Rig! Cheers
I’m not so sure I agree with your reasoning, because everything else in the house that runs on the higher voltage still uses screw down terminals and so do many other inverters including other ones that Victron makes
@@amsoiladamI may have misunderstood the type of exposed terminals you meant, but as a general rule you should not be able to touch any live HV connection with your fingers, or if you were to accidentally drop/slip with a tool or metallic object it should not be able to come in contact with any HV connection. This would be a definite consideration many others overlook on the LV side as well, I see many people with systems that have exposed terminals &/or busbars close together where huge amperage currents flow.
@amsoil Adam. The needed stripping length should absolutely be specified in the manual of the inverter, AND it’s always written/specified on the green (phoenix Contact) terminal itself (mostly in one of the sides.)
The use of ferrules, especially with those quite ridged cables you use, are not a must. Only with high flex cable it’s recommended, ensuring you get all thin copper wires in, but also then you can do without. So: using the right stripping lengt of the wire is a must!
IF you Thea want to use ferrules, they should be exactly the diameter of the used wire, and the should have the same length as you adviced stripping length. On top of that you should then use a calibrated stripping tool to crimp them properly, because otherwise you creating a high resistance point between the wire and the ferrule again.. beware of that!
You are absolutely correct, since I’ve made these corrections, the system has been working flawlessly
@@amsoiladam its not on the instructions because they expect a professional to wire the unit like me
I have installed similar multiple here in South Africa they had screw terminals there, I don't those push in are a great idea
Thank you very much !
You are welcome!
If your generator is dual wound then you will need to jumper the AC input into the ATS. The Victron MPII 2 x 120 will only pass through AC input L1 when the incoming power is single phase. If your generator is putting out single phase power (Dual wound) then you are only pulling from L1 of the generator. This can bog down or overload the generator.
Open up your ATS and check the voltage between L1 and L2 on the gen input with it running. If they are 0V - 10V then you can bond them safely with a piece of 6G wire. This will resolve your generator issues.
As for the ferrules, I would forgo them altogether. The thick copper ones you are using aren't intended for that purpose but the thin metal ones will pull right out. I tested this myself and found that no ferrule is the best option with both fine and thick stranded wire.
I'm sorry if this was already discussed in the comments. I didn't have the time to read over 200 comments but I thought I would share my input.
Thank you for the info
Just a general comment on ferrules similar to what others have mentioned. Getting the correct ferrules with the proper crimping tool goes a long way, but above that get UL listed parts as well. The correct 6awg ferrule from Panduit for example are less than $1 each. Many other companies to choose from as well that offer UL listed components.
Again, also highly recommend the proper crimp tool, for all your crimps!
Stay safe out there everyone 🤙
"getting the correct ferrules"... Or you could just use the correct wire instead of using the wrong wire and adding ferrules to try and make it acceptable. There's no ferrule needed in this connection, I'm guessing you haven't installed a MultiII.
@@incredibleyoutubehandle I actually have installed Multi-II’s. To be fair, yes ferrules aren’t always needed and sometimes should not be used at all. I wouldn’t use ferrules on romex wire.
On the flip side, fine stranded wire isn’t the “wrong” wire. I cut some of my 50A 6/4 cord I had which is fine (high count) strand and tinned (yes completely overkill), and used ferrules as well.
Also to add, proper strip length with no nicks in the wire goes a long way too. You don’t want your strip length either too long or too short, with or without ferrules.
@@JaimetheNomad lets be fair. Its the push in connector, not the wire.
@@crinabobo7412 I’ll admit I’m not a fan of these types of push in connectors. Just give me a bolt I can torque down :)
@@JaimetheNomad the whole inverter version 2 is a joke
When copper is oxidised as shown, any weak acid will take it of chemically in seconds. I use oxalic acid but hydrochloric acid, diluted will work too. This oxidisation can reach way up into the cable. Also, I agree that Victron is top notch but they have as so many other brands fallen in love with certain suppliers of cable terminals. They offer a simple solution to go from PCB to cable but is in my experience sub-standard.
Thank you
I wouldn’t use ferrules unless manufacturer called for them. I have tinned the wire/cable ends that go into the connector on that unit. The result is a very low resistance connection
Thanks Informative
Glad it was helpful!
I thought this video was pretty cool. It was definately interesting to get a back story on some of the goings on that we dont typically see. Theres a little more to Adams day than just swapping out oil.
That’s for sure
Oh wow I was going to get a Victron. but after seeing they use spring terminals for these heavy wires. I will switch to the Schneider | Conext XW PRO 6.8KW. I really do not like spring terminal connections. Also thinking unless your using a ferule that is long enough for the entire wire length it may have an even harder time making a good connection probably better off with the bare wire making contact without any uneven surface. Or you can try to find longer ones online. definitely appreciate the heads up on this issue.
Hey Jim, every I appreciate the response. But what’s more important that I want you to consider is that I screwed up here and Victron warranted it out. That’s how great of a company they are. And although I cannot 100% confirm, they have made corrections and put in screw style terminals since then. I also have to tell you that since I have made the repairs in this video it has been almost 2 years now and the system has worked absolutely flawlessly zero problems whatsoever. Victron is really high-quality. Do not let this sway you. By the way, I am not sponsored by them or have any relationship whatsoever other than I bought a unit skirted up and they fixed it. So for that, I will definitely give them their props.
This is not bad damage. I had to fix mine from rain once and from a mistake with a grid tie inverter connected to ac out. I had to replace transistors and some capacitors and it was about 100$ to fix it. If the logic board is fine its fixable.
Good to know
thanks for info
Welcome
that 7 strand 6/3 solid romex definitely doesn't need a ferrule, it will just eventually get loose and fall off without soldering. But the fine stranded marine wire did need the ferrule.
Thank you for the input, it’s been a year and a half now or more since I made this video, and since I made these repairs, the entire system has worked flawlessly
They also had a bad bunch of these units go out initially. They’ve been good to get them replaced as they fail but have not done a recall - Victron seldom does recalls.
Good to know!
Glad I ran across this video, since I’m getting a victron system good to know.
So what possibly caused it that the wire was not stripped far enough back and kept it from fully making contact on the bare wire, meaning that spring loaded device to hold the wire was probably on the very end of the insulated wire and barely touching the end of the bare wire.
Yes, fine, multi strand wire, and good Farrells should eliminate the problem
@@amsoiladam Yes, you are correct.
Yes I will use stranded wire and make sure enough is stripped off, not sure about the ferrels unless I can find a long good quality one.
I had the exact same thing happen to mine. I had the Mutiplus II 2X120. I did get the unit replaced under warrantee. My comment to Arizona Wind and Solar was that spring clamps for a 50 amp outlet is a bad idea. It was the same common white wire outlet that burned out. I raised the draw off the generator to 42 amps and it burned up. I'm not an electrical engineer and this is strictly a guess, I'm thinking that when this is powered by the generator, the sine wave is synchronized. The would mean the common white wire could have as much as 84 amps on it. Unlike a split phase where the return voltage is self canceling, therefor reducing the voltage on the common wire to near zero.
I agree, however, since I’ve made these repairs, everything is worked flawlessly
Actually, he neutral carries the imbalance on any 120/240V system. If your load is balanced between the phases then the load will be near 0. If tou have a 30A load on one phase and a 15A load on the other, then the load on the neutral would be 15A.
Great video 👏👏👏💯👍😎
Thank you
The springs are made wit a rounded end to accomodate just pushing in without depressing the spring. If the wire isnt stripped long enough, the pressure of the spring pushing the wire back out, along with vibration, will cause the connection to fail. We found this out the hard way with connections on conveyor for the cables powering the rollers and we would lose power.
Great info to know, after I made the corrections in this video, the system has been working perfect for more than a year now
Yes, by making sure the wires were stripped to the proper length, you are avoiding the problems you encountered. We even had the problem with cables made in our factory and had to get them schooled on how to make them properly. One of the biggest reasons I have always hated spring terminals.
Adam... use 600 volt Anchor Marine wire...not what you are using. West Marine!
Well darn it there goes the profit from the last rally. But at least you got it figured out, let's hope anyway
No not that bad, Victron and northern Arizona wind and sun Warren teed the item. So I got the replacement at no charge
I have the preditor 3500 aswell and it's a nice unit but I didn't know you could run them in parallel
Good Idea for this video. I know you will be using this if this happens again 😊.
Quick-release terminals are a bad tone for such expensive equipment. I hope they are smart enough to abandon them and put the bolts.
I wish they just used proper screw terminals indeed, just feels more secure.
I’ve heard that they’ve changed the system to the screwdown terminals and the new models. However, since I’ve made these repairs, everything has worked perfect.
Thanks
just think the issue you are having is due it was the Victron model you purchased. If you have a looked at the multiplus 2 GX model manual (available online see page 10) the terminals are different and look like screwed down type (in white) not pressure secured type "green". So may pay you to go back to the distributor for a discussion on your issue that you are not confident that the connections are secured. Usually use the green terminals for coms / data not current purposes. Think this was a design issue at the time and future models was redesigned to hopefully stop your issue having😁
Thank you for the video!. I was just about to purchase one of these Victron units. However, I'm not convinced you were at fault here. I'm not impressed with those spring-loaded connectors. I'll most likely look for a unit that uses lugs.
Don’t hesitate with the victron, ever since I made the corrections, this unit has worked absolutely flawlessly, and I highly recommend it
Hi Adam! Can you couple one of those small solar charger (150v 50ah f.e) to a regular on grid (no hybrid) inverter?
panels to charger to battery to on grid inverter to home grid ...
Thanks
Honestly Abel I have no idea, I am not very experienced with these systems I am learning as I go
i lost my previous comment ... but for what you do and what i hear... youll need 2 x Qaudro 5/10.000 48v depending on the budget and i would place some 48v 100amp batterys rackmount Litime/sok or something... there about 1400$ a piece...5kw ..4x 20kw ...but that means youll need to change your mppts also maybe depending on what you already have ( look up on victron mppt calculator and play with your panel info / strings and s / p and youll know if you can keep them or just by one more normaly you can keep them because 48v is better you can put more on the mppts than if you run a 12v system...so ja ... advantages ..) ... buttt the load you can put on those is higher pass true ...smaller calbles for the batterys ...but 48v batterys you can expand them more easy you just add as you go..in p.. - - sell what you have now and upgrade haha hard life ..i know ...
and or ....install a bridge so you can switch from wall only as a fail safe so that the high voltage is isolated from the solar side also an option ...
and if you do change mppts you may keep one to run external folable panels ...so dont just trow parts away sometimes you can still use them haha
Thank you for the input. But this system is working very well. The video you watched is a couple of years old and since I made these repairs and modifications, the entire system has worked absolutely flawlessly. No reason to go through all the trouble to change everything now. However, I do have plans on building a new system and a new application that will be a 48 V system. I just received the batteries the other day.
i would change the wires with solid ground wire .that ground wire is not large enough and i would go with stranded look at the ground on the other wire its stranded and much larger in diameter not solid you could have same problem again that solid ground wire could break under vibration of travelling .house wire should not be used on vehicles good luck with it
Anther tube said the feral will stick inside and the wire will pull out ... if you want to change the leads.... ruining the green connector. I wonder what they say about using dielectric on it. If you go back to 9:26 you will see the red and black wires are different than later. I wonder if that was that way on the original and something may of gotten crossed.... I think it may be it doesn't make a difference.