Excellent investigation into a vintage unsolved murder - (and so much better than the other one I just watched on youtube, a woman who calls Thelma Todd 'Velma' over and over). Too many details and too many suspects in this case, the usual problem with these vintage murders, and the new boyfriend in San Francisco should have been found. Also, someone was living in that apartment upstairs from the garage - did law enforcement question them? They may have heard the car running and would know exactly when her death occurred. Another point is that I have read that Thelma and Roland needed TWO keys to get into their upstairs apartments, not just one, another confusing detail - apparently Thelma just had the one key on her? And why would she climb hundreds of stairs to get to that garage to begin with, none of it makes any real sense. Too bad the witnesses are all long dead, they needed to be questioned further. Thank you for an excellent and interesting show on this case!
Hi! Been working on Thelma's case for so long that I love finally being able to engage with a real person about it. 1. The new boyfriend in San Francisco was odd and bleeds into Thelma's friend, Martha Ford, claiming Thelma was bringing a male date to her party on 12/15/1935. Only a few people cite the San Francisco man by word of mouth from Thelma herself--- mainly being actress Ida Lupino. I read that Hollywood actor Duke York claimed he was the date supposed to go to the party with her that Sunday. He very clearly lived and worked in LA, so not sure where this "San Francisco Man" keeps popping up. Also odd that Duke York's claims weren't thoroughly looked into or even really remembered. Ending twist--- Duke York's wikipedia page says he committed suicide in 1952. Interesting. 2. I believe the man living above the car garage in the Castillo Del Mar was the cafe manager! So why didn't he hear anything? Not even smell massive amounts of carbon monoxide? Earl Calder, the night watchman, said in court he patrolled the area and went past the garage 15 times on his shift. He said he never once even saw a car go by let alone the sound of the car being on until the battery died. So weird. 3. Eek, I completely forgot to tie up the loose ends about the key situation. YES, there were 2 keys needed to get into her part of the apartment. 1 main door bolt key for the front door, which Roland himself said he locked around 3:15am. Thelma did not have that key, she only had the key to her door as Roland & Thelma's apartments were separated by a type of hallway entryway. Wish I could go in and make edits even after posting a video.
@@hiddenhollywood5562 One has to wonder: a) Did Thelma decide (once she realized she couldn't get into her apartment) to get to her car and drive to a friend's / boyfriend's home, then start her car to warm it up and simply fell asleep from too much alcohol? b) It is weird that the night watchman heard and saw nothing when checking the garage so many times - but was he there after 4:00 a.m.? c) Did law enforcement check telephone records - Mrs. Wallace Ford claimed Thelma called her at 4:30 p.m. on Sunday (after Todd was supposedly already passed on) to say she was coming late to Ford's party. I would assume there would be telephone records of such a call, not sure if that was true in 1935. So strange that Ford would insist that Thelma called her, supposedly they were friends for years. d) There should also be records of Thelma's calls in the days before her death, one would think law enforcement would have checked them all out, perhaps there was some 'boyfriend' or other 'friend' who should have been questioned. e) Thelma's mother, Alice Todd, immediately insisted it was 'murder', strange also. f) Roland West claimed, on his deathbed, to be responsible for 'locking' the garage door - yet it was found unlocked, wasn't it, by Ms. Whitehead the following Monday? So many questions on this one!
Two things that you mentioned in your video that you rightly call out as rumours, Lucy Luciano was not involved and she did not have bruising and broken ribs. She made to to the garage seemingly unforced, she wasn't knocked out and moved there, her shoes showed signs of wear from walking on the pavement. She also wasn't so intoxicated that she couldn't walk, Thelma had been part of the Hollywood party scene. I keep coming back to Roland West being involved, you may have seen this in your research: www.marvinjwolf.com/blog/thelma-todds-death-solved Some of the details don't add up to me, but I am inclined to believe that Thelma had a heated argument with Roland when she got home late. It would also explain why she declined the chauffeur's offer to walk her to her apartment. She only had one set of keys because she took a small clutch to the party and didn't want to over fill it, Mae Whitehead testified to this fact. Hal Roach claims they had a fight, she stormed off to the garage, got in the car and Roland locked her in the garage. With the car running she was overcome by the fumes in a short amount of time. The police tested how long it would take with her Lincoln Phaeton. Roland came back unlocked the door at some point afterwards and noticed she was dead. Is this part believable, I don't know, maybe he was trying to concoct a story. Keep in mind that Hal Roach did not like Roland West, and Roland West was involved in some shady business investments. Was he able to convince the police to cover it?
@@hiddenhollywood5562 He probably didn't smell the carbon monoxide because carbon monoxide is odorless. That's why home owners with furnaces install carbon monoxide detectors that have alarms.
I have loved the mystery for many years. I drove by this building for over 40 years every day. I lived in Topanga Canyon for 30+ years and worked as a designer in LA. I have stopped twice and walked inside twice during renovations. It is such a great story . What do I think? Well a few thing never made sense. One being her ware to the garage, her dress and shoes were untouched. The walk and climb barefoot would have been impossible, the road condition and type of stairs were extremely rough. Second the contents of her last meal, did not match what had happened at the party. I think she was picked up by someone at her house after dropped off, caught a bite to eat with this person then dropped off at the garage of the home up the hill. Who was that and what happened then, we will never know. It’s a great story, and still a great place of interest as I drive by often.
Thank you for commenting! I wondered if the commitment to on location filming was something viewers liked or not. It helps me better understand the case and the person's real life outside of their celebrity persona. Just filmed on location for new episodes in Hawaii, LA, Hollywood, Chicago, & San Francisco. Lots more to come!
@@hiddenhollywood5562 I very much liked the on location filming. It helped me to better envision the situation. I have a bit of a hard time believing that an inebriated Thelma with blood alcohol of .013 would have the inclination or ability to climb 275 steep steps at 3 am to get to her car (which I read had no heater by the way). It just does not seem very plausible to me.
I think that this is the best video upload on Thelma's story that I have seen on UA-cam. It is both interesting and factually accurate and to the point, as well as professionally presented. Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us. 💕 ^^
I liked the way you sincerely want to know the facts about Thelma Todd's death not just depending on rumours and hear say. My belief is she was murdered very near the cafe and placed into her car. I don't believe she was depressed, or an alcoholic. If she had anxiety issues most probably stemmed from any medication side affects in trying to keep her weight down. Thelma was a smart and feisty gal, a good heart, many liked her. The studios in Hollywood pretty much owned their 'stars', God only knows what the fixers were up to in Thelmas life. I've been a fan of Thelma's for a long time, I pray one day she finally gets justice.
An informative look at Thelma's death, which I think was a murder. There's a curious similarity with the supposed suicide of British boxer Freddie Mills in 1965. There's a suspected gangland connection with this tragedy. Mills was sitting upright in the back seat of his car with a bullet wound in his right eye and the rifle responsible was stood leaning next to him against the front seats. The fatal bullet was found to have entered through his open eye, which experts deemed impossible for a suicide, who would have blinked as the trigger was pulled. But the carefully placed rifle really tells its own story. And with Thelma, she was allegedly discovered sitting upright with her hands on her lap, which is strongly suggestive of a posing. And again this was possibly a gangland killing. It's as if such killers get it wrong by trying too hard to stage the scene when a car is used for the death scene. They're in a rush to get away, but they make sure everything looks "neat", which in their heated minds means realistic. But on proper examination, their idea of neat turns out to be the opposite. Whoever stood that rifle carefully against the front seats of Mills' car never stopped to think that a dead man couldn't do that. And whoever posed Thelma so serenely with her hands on her lap likewise didn't realise that she would almost certainly be lying on the rear seat of her car after dying of carbon monoxide poisoning.
Excellent vlog. What about the stomach contents (peas and carrots) that weren’t served at the Friday night’s party. Roland West’s deathbed confession. The wrapped Christmas gifts in the trunk. The woman was murdered!! No wonder she haunts the place. Keep up the good work. Thanks!
You investigated this as well as anyone has. But it is a deep mystery of which the truth might never be known. It's so unfortunate to have happened to what I believe was a very nice and talented woman who got mixed up with the wrong people, which is not all that hard to do for a beautiful blonde in Hollywood. I am suspicious of mob connections but as you brought out there are other very distinct possibilities. Thanks for posting.
I think she was murdered, no question! I don't understand how the case was just dismissed after people were getting death threats in the jury. It's ridiculous.
Absolutely what I'm going for! I tend to be averse to gore and modern day serial killer true crime. We can have true crime, but with more mystery and aesthetics to it. Plenty of cases out there people haven't touched on yet.
The photos of Roland West escorting Thelma's mother Alice to court proceedings are very curious. You would think if anyone would have suspected Roland West had an involvement in Thelma's death, it would be her mother right? Yet there she was, arm and arm with West like he her innocent "son in law" or something. She was with Thelma when West said, "be home by 2am"...
Here as a recommendation from Stephanie Post. Idk anything about Thelma, never even heard of her but this was interesting all around. Editing was great, for a 21 minute youtube video I didnt find myself bored at all. My only concern, interest more than anything, is the photos of the crime scene which you mention. A link would be nice. Other than that I thoroughly enjoyed it, liked, subscribed and look forward to more. Also, killer outfits ❤
Thank you! I've been hesitant on adding copyrighted photos even if these videos are for educational purposes. For future videos I'll try to figure out how I can add crime scene or detailed photos in a separate video or easy to find link.
You gave a wonderful presentation of Thelma Todd's life! I think that the S.F. man, was the hit man! They brought in a fixer to clean up her murder! Lucky wanted her top floor of.her restraunt and she would not give it to him! She was not robbed! It was personal and not business.
Other sources state that the encounter between Thelma Todd and Pat DiCicco at the Trocedero was not pleasant and there was a brief and very nasty exchange. For the record Pat was with actress Margaret Lindsay.
i live the next town over in lowell ma almost every other week i go to where she is buried on top of a mountain in the Cemetery with a great View where she could look over miles miles of land. If I could post a picture of it I would. R.I.P THELMA TODD.. thank you for this video makes thing more clear to understand
I really enjoyed this video and subscribed to your channel.I cant wait to see more cases.I think you did an excellent job.I like the darker side of old Hollywood and have read a lot about it over the years..thank you
Thanks so much! Hours are spent on these videos from location shots, script writing, story organizing, research, etc. At least 7 more episodes are currently in production or editing post production--- much more to come!
I don’t think there was a Studio System as such then but this has the fingerprints of Hollywood management all over it. Thank you for a wonderful video.
It's been months since studying this case and I still have zero clue who the true killer is. Hollywood System could potentially be involved, especially since the mafia had huge control of the studios.
There's a problem with the "Mafia leaned on Thelma Todd" hypothesis that most people living today don't know about. The idea that some mafia figures wanted to use part of Thelma Todd's restaurant for illegal gambling doesn't make much sense if you know how the L.A. mafia ran illegal gambling casinos near Santa Monica back in the 1920's and 1930's. (Hint: They weren't illegal.) Let's say you were in Santa Monica, CA back in Thelma Todd's day and you had the money and the inclination to indulge in drinking, gambling and, or pay a visit to a local bordello; all you had to do was go to the end of the Santa Monica pier and pay 50 cents to get a water taxi (a guy who ran a speed boat) to take you to one of several party ships that anchored 3.1 nautical miles off the coast. The territorial limit of the U.S. back then was only 3 nautical miles. And back then there were gambling ships anchored off the coast of Southern California from San Diego up to Santa Barbara, with at least two of them anchored in Santa Monica Bay at any time. During prohibition it was legal for these vessels to serve alcohol, or maybe it's more accurate to say they were outside of California and United States legal jurisdiction. After prohibition ended, the lure of gambling and prostitution; without any chance of the police breaking up the party, kept these gambling ships very profitable. The criminals who ran these vessels were bold enough to advertise in the Los Angeles Times newspaper. I was doing some research on a shipwreck which occurred off of Topanga Canyon back around 1930, and looking at microfilm of the L.A. Times (a couple of years before the internet got started) for a contemporary account of the disaster, I saw an advertisement to "Take a Cruise to Nowhere" which told the reader how to get to one of the vessels anchored off of Santa Monica. It wasn't until 1939 that the last of these vessels were shut down as laws were changed to allow the legal authorities the ability to do this. In the Santa Monica area, a line was drawn from Point Dume near Malibu to Point Vicente on the Palos Verdes peninsula and everything inside that line was declared to be an inland waterway which allowed California to claim jurisdiction over any vessels operating there. A late friend; who did way more research on this subject than I have, had photos of law enforcement figures throwing a dozen or more slot machines into the ocean off of Santa Monica when the last of these pleasure ships was shut down. So the L.A. mob had no reason to want to use Thelma Todd's restaurant as a casino. Just look at a map and see where Thelma's café was and where the Santa Monica pier still is today; though it was much longer back in 1935. (A major storm took out a big section back around 1983.) It was far easier for most people to get to the pier; and find parking, then to go to Thelma's café. Unless Thelma Todd had a gambling problem and associated debts; and I've never heard she had any such problem, it's difficult to see the mob shaking her down. You would have to have reports of other local legal businesses having to pay protection money, which I'm unaware of. From what I've read the local mafia of that time was trying to shake down local bookies, not legal business people. I don't believe this mystery will ever be solved. If Thelma Todd was murdered, which I suppose is possible, I think the motive or motives of the killer would have been entirely personal.
What you say is all true but with Thelma Todd's Sidewalk Cafe they wanted to attract the high end movie star gambler. Also by 1935 Frank Nitti and the Chicago Outfit controlled the International Alliance of theatrical Stage Employees and were able extort hundreds of thousands of dollars from the film studios to keep union wages down and avoid strikes. Charles Luciano wanted in on the Hollywood rackets. It is believed he wanted to start with Thelma's Cafe. After all, her husband Pat DiCicco was working for Luciano and the NY Mob.
@@christophersansone2755 - The problem with this idea is Luciano never visited California. The furthest West he got was Kansas and that was in a Federal Prison. Now Bugsy Siegal was sent to California as Luciano's representative, but I believe that was in the late 1930's. Somewhere I read an article that stated Siegal made an earlier trip in 1935. So, there's a slight chance he could have met Todd, but Bugsy Siegal really stood out; so it's not impossible, but not terribly likely either. There's a list of known movie stars that Siegal hung out with. I've never seen any mention of Todd on any of those lists. Also, Luciano only worked indirectly with Frank Nitti. For example, Nitti's shakedown of the Union you mentioned allowed Luciano to extort theaters in New York. Nitti had a guy named Willie Bioff in So. Cal. to do the dirty work with the movie studios and movie theater chains and Nitti concentrated shaking down theaters in Chicago. Here's the thing, this is all about extortion. There's no hint of gambling in any of this. Los Angeles had its own mob and they were very much interested in gambling, among other things. They're just not as famous; make that infamous, as Luciano, Siegal or Nitti. It's far more likely a local mobster would have tried to pressure Thelma Todd than someone from New York or Chicago. There are a couple of things to add. There are number of videos which show the building where Thelma Todd's business stood. The building still exists today. In one or two of them people got inside to film while construction was underway. One of them even shows the area where Todd lived with her boyfriend. They should still be on UA-cam. Look at the space that was available and remember there was a fully functioning night club with a band stand and dance floor, with the café and kitchen that on was on the first floor. I'm not sure where they grilled stakes that were available at the night club. But if it was upstairs, that's even less room for a hidden casino. Then, look at how Thelma Todd died. When has the mob killed someone with carbon monoxide? Probably never. When they want to send a message they usually do it with a bullet and everything about these types of murders are usually overt and brutal. I think Todd's boyfriend is the only reasonable suspect. I'm not saying he murdered her; in fact I doubt that he did, but if it was anyone it was probably him. One more thing. (I know this never ends.) A number of written stories and UA-cam videos on Thelma Todd contain a ton of bogus information. This is useful to know if you start going in depth on this. For example, one of the favorites is to read or hear that the LAPD tested the type of shoes Thelma Todd was wearing when she died by having a female police employee walk in them on the same path Todd walked to reach the garage where she died and found Todd's own shoes were insufficiently scuffed for that long walk. Totally false, Thelma Todd's were scuffed up exactly as expected. If I hadn't had a friend who house sat for relatives who were in Europe, at a home they owned about four or five doors down from when Todd died; and he hadn't pointed at a garage door and said to me, "I heard some movie star from the 1930's died in there," I don't think I would have ever had that much interest in this story. That was back in the early 1990's.
@@bhartley868- When? Luciano never came to California. Todd might have met him when she briefly lived in New York City in the the 1920's, when she was a teenager. Luciano wasn't the head of the mob then. Todd was in her first movie in 1926 when she was twenty years old. Even though it is a lost film there are still photos from it that show it was shot in Southern California. In late October, 1935 Luciano was busy setting up the murder of Dutch Schultz to prevent Shultz from killing Federal prosecutor Tom Dewey. Luciano feared killing a Fed would set off a major crackdown. He was probably right but it was already too late because Dewey's office started coming after Luciano a few months later. By March, 1936 Luciano was on the run and hiding in Hot Springs, Arkansas. Spoiler alert, it didn't work. I don't see Lucky Luciano taking an interest in one small nightclub on the other side of the country in between the Shultz murder and Fed crackdown. He had bigger concerns to deal with.
Thelma Todd's co-star Patsy Kelly would go on to play "Laura Louise" in the movie "Rosemary's Baby." Laura Louise was Minnie Castevet's (Ruth Gordon) friend and fellow Satanist who both visit Rosemary (Mia Farrow) in her apartment.
There's an episode of E! Mysteries and scandals. I loved that show and they have all of them on UA-cam for free if anybody is into this genre. The reboot is nowhere near as good. I didn't even finish the first episode. Not the same. Just like this new unsolved mysteries isn't as good to me for some reason.
“Accidental suicide”-no such thing. OK? Have you read the death certificate? It states that the death was an accident, not suicide. As a retired lawyer, I assure you that there is no such thing as accidental suicide. Suicide is willful, deliberate and intentional. It is no accident. Words matter.
She never walked up the steps. Her shoes were in good shape, they would have been scuffed up. She was waiting for someone to pick her up by the stairway. Whoever it was knew what happened to her and never told - meaning he or she probably did it.
Very true! Her shoes were fine on the bottom. There is a photo of the exact shoes being shown in court during the trial and I've seen it myself. Also, a female of the same size/height as Thelma wore a replica of her outfit/shoes and climbed up every stare as part of the investigation. So many pieces just don't make sense here. Why would Thelma climb 200+ stairs to lay in a garage when she could have gone to MULTIPLE different homes nearby! Tons of employees, family, and friends lived around the property and she also rented a house a few blocks away.
@@hiddenhollywood5562 I can imagine someone told her that he/she would be waiting in the restaurant parking lot for her. She wanted this to be secret ("You'll never believe who I'm bringing!") so she had the driver leave her by the stairs so he'd drive off and not see. She walked over, got in the person's car - and that was it.
Thank you! Thelma's life work never transitioned into the modern era based on pop culture. It's unfortunate that she's known so well for passing, but I hope this video brought to light her soul in a way that others didn't capture.
Groucho Marx, to Thelma Todd in "Monkey Business" (1931): "I know, I know, you're a woman who's been getting nothing but dirty breaks. Well, we can clean and tighten your brakes, but you'll have to stay in the garage all night." Eerie.
Thank you for posting what I consider one of the best documentaries regarding the death of Thelma Todd. I don't know if chloroform is detectable after a few hours but with her chipped front tooth, the laceration on the inside of her lower lip and yhe broken nose it is feasible that a strong man could have approached her grom behind and firmly held a chloroform soaked cloth over her nose and mouth, rendering her unconscious and proceed with the botched accidental suicide theory. She still had to be breathing when lef
This is to finish my comment; She still had to be breathing for carbon monoxide to get into her lungs. She was far too intelligent to run a car engine in a locked garage and she was not suicidal. Funny how Pat Di Cicco's career took off after Thelma's death.
What is strange is why were her arms out of her coat? Especially if she was walking to the other house! I grew up in southern Ca and it gets cold on the beach at night!
Season 1 is almost 100% planned out and yes- Elizabeth Short AKA the Black Dahlia is on it. To me, the case is extremely clear who brutally murdered her and I'm enraged he got away with so much. Check out my Instagram Story highlight (@darkpinup) as I briefly covered this story around March 2020 on that platform.
It was an inquest not a trial! You say people said they saw her nose broken and go so far as to say look at the autopsy photos for it. What does the coroners report say. You can not tell if anything is broken by a picture. Would you go to a doctor who looked at pictures then gave an medical diagnosis?
what about the chauffeur. he was the last person to see her alive. who was he ? could he have done some foul play with thelma on the night of her death ?
Just as an fyi...my great aunt was in showbiz in the 40s. They did not wash their clothes until they actually looked dirty. They felt it would wear out the fabric and with the sequins and such it was hard on fabric and sequins. Sequins loose their shine fairly quickly. Especially back then. Of course they would clean them if they smelled. So Thelma very well could have worn the same clothes the next day. It sounds like Thelma had been slapped and cut her lip against a tooth for there to be blood. I believe the woman who said she called her and said all that ,pretty much. But then her married lover sounds pretty suspect especially with the bloody lip. Sounds like she was passed out or she would have turned the car off. Perhaps someone chloroformed her and left her to die. Maybe the mysterious person she was bringing or her lover's wife. One other possibility, as much as she drank ,she may have had a bleeding ulcer and had stopped and threw up blood and did not wipe her mouth well enough. She could have passed out from blood loss. Its a stretch but I knew an older man who almost died from that. I have a mystery of my own family connected to Hollywood. That place has so many secrets. And back then you could change your identity with as little as a phone bill or a drivers license as they had no photo on them back then. I wont tell my story as I dont want to tarnish any names. Ill never find out the truth anyway. So why cut my nose off to spite my face? It bothers me a lot now and then. Other times I can shrug it off. But I will never know 100 percent.
I’m a new sub. I watch a lot Laurel and Hardy. I was like she was VERY BEAUTIFUL. I didn’t know her name until some beginning credits. I was VERY SHOCKED that she was murdered 😢😢😢😢.
I thought Thelma only intended to train as a schoolteacher, she never was an actual teacher. Good video, interesting rationale. Might be worth considering the financial state of the restaurant and Thelma's suspicion that the accountant (Charles Smith) was siphoning off funds on a regular basis. And he lived in the apartment above the garage her body was found in.
After all, the question remains: who had the strongest motive to kill Thelma, a star comedienne in successful comedy shorts, and who had also appeared in features as well? DiCicco may have been capable out of sheer jealousy, as Thelma had moved on with her life. I don't know how strong Roland West's motives were to murder her. In the end, she may indeed have simply got in her car and started it, and fallen asleep after a long night of drinking. She never woke up. That is as plausible as anything else.
Personally, my hunch is that Roland was somehow involved in her death. I have nothing more to go on than that. I feel his deathbed confession quite possibly rang true. You might want to check out Hal Roachs' account as he was visited by police soon after Thelmas' death. His account is fascinating but again--like other assertions--doesn't make much sense. We'll never really know. Just like Marilyn and JFK. But I found this doc quite good!
MM and JFK rumour comes from a book that came out years after the death of both of them. It was fabricated by someone who knew marilyn but couldn't publish the book he wrote about her. His editor pressured him into writing something "scandalous" so he came up with that fake story.
I had always understood it Thelma Todd had a nightspot that was doing great ,Lucky Luciano wanted it,I guess he sent her an offer she refused so he just had her killed, then made to look like a suicide.
Thelma's "murder" is one big urban myth. She did not have any injuries except to her lip from falling forward on the steering wheel. Her shoes were scuffed from climbing the steps up the hill. The idea the mob would have a move star bumped off just so they could use her cafe for gambling (when they already had perfectly lucrative offshore floating gambling establishments operating already) is laughable. Thelma was locked out by Roland West after an argument, she waited for the cafe to open, turned on the engine to warm up (back then people generally were not as aware of the dangers of this as they are now, and she had been drinking), and dozed off. Her mother, for one, would have spent her life raising the roof to get to the bottom of things had there been anything to this murder story.
Just drove by Thelma Todd's Cafe a few days ago. Looks like the building is now a fully running advertising agency business. The area looked more alive than usual with lots of people out on the terrace. Not exactly what I wish for the building, but at least it's restored and not torn down!
Sorry, no evidence that Pat DiCicco or anyone in particular had physical encounter with Ted Healy the night he died. Healy had a reputation as a brawling souse who got into fights frequently, but he died from the effects of alcoholism. The medical documentation is very clear on this. E.J. Fleming's book qualifies as speculative fiction, treating rumors as factual.
Nice attempt but a lot of misinformation. Thelma did not work with the Marx Brothers at Hal Roach Studios in shorts. You’ve circled the wrong garage door where she died. You circled the wrong part of building where her apartment was above the restaurant. All that random footage is distracting. However, I appreciate your interest in Thelma. These are just rookie mistakes. Do a little more research and clean this up and you’ll have a more compelling and valid piece.
Thanks for the feedback, it keeps me on my toes and helps to improv my research for future episodes. 1. I lumped Thelma with the Marx Brothers as Thelma often worked with Groucho Marx. I clipped in their scene in the film Horse Feathers for this reason. However, the sub-research on her relationship on & off screen with Groucho and the Marx Brothers specifically wasn't something I deeply dove into. 2. I always saw their apartment mapped out on the 2nd level near the Octagonal shape with windows. I know that area specifically has a grand staircase. My circling on the map in this video was probably too generalized and therefore off--- you're right! 3. Yep, I circled the wrong garage on stage left rather than stage right. There were a lot of photos and maps I would have loved to use, rather than stock footage, but I'm terrified of copyright issues. Might test the waters more in future episodes.
This case, as with most of life's mysteries (including premature, tragic deaths) is best solved through Occam's Razor. No evidence of foul play has ever emerged, and the simplest, most likely scenario is that she died stupidly and pointlessly, too drunk to be cognizant of the risk of gas poisoning from a vehicle in an enclosed space (if she understood it at all). Maybe she once broke a window to get inside in the past, that doesn't mean she was going to vandalize property multiple times for a similar cause if her inebriated brain could rationalize a viable alternative. Humans are not consistent, or consistently clever. Drunk people even less so. Accidental death resulting from careless mistakes and/or personal stupidity is many magnitudes more common than homicide, and without evidence, speculation beyond that conclusion isn't helpful or necessary.
Interesting documentary, but “had drank?” Seriously? I am perplexed so many native speakers make this horrible error. It’s not complicated to speak the English language correctly. Were they not taught grammar in primary school?
Excellent video and presentation. Such a tragic ending to a promising career of a young woman. Unfortunately, there appears or appeared to be sufficient evidence to convict someone beyond a reasonable doubt, which is the legal standard (that people seem to conveniently forget when high profile cases are pushed in the media). You did say that there are some that you expect more than others- I would have been curious to know who those are.
Akums Razor sceneries would be she came home drunk an hour and a half late, either squabbled, or was just locked out because of it. Went to the car to pass out and died of carbon monoxide poisoning. Very sad regardless., Her Cafe is now office space. How boring.
No, you are confusing Thelma Todd with Thelma Furness, Viscountess Furness who was a mistress of King Edward VIII while he was still the Prince of Wales. Lady Furness was also the identical twin of the mother of the author, fashion designer and socialite Gloria Vanderbilt.
Thelma tood avait comme toutes starlettes et stars en devinirs la cuisse légère et frequentaient de la cliques d Hollywood mais aussi dla maffia et etait ennuyer par ces amants .
Pour thelma thod et le mystère de ça mort il faut savoir que son cabaret qu'elle avait construire il y a aussi la clique qu'elle connaissait voulait en fairent un tripo elle n a pas accepté fréquente lucky luciano je pense comme beaucoups qu elle a été assassiné . Elle devait dans la bohemiene joué avec laurel et hardy qui ont été peiné . Elle avait déjà tourné avec stan et ollie qui disaient qu elle une très jolie femme et qui l appréciait .
Excellent investigation into a vintage unsolved murder - (and so much better than the other one I just watched on youtube, a woman who calls Thelma Todd 'Velma' over and over). Too many details and too many suspects in this case, the usual problem with these vintage murders, and the new boyfriend in San Francisco should have been found. Also, someone was living in that apartment upstairs from the garage - did law enforcement question them? They may have heard the car running and would know exactly when her death occurred. Another point is that I have read that Thelma and Roland needed TWO keys to get into their upstairs apartments, not just one, another confusing detail - apparently Thelma just had the one key on her? And why would she climb hundreds of stairs to get to that garage to begin with, none of it makes any real sense. Too bad the witnesses are all long dead, they needed to be questioned further. Thank you for an excellent and interesting show on this case!
Hi! Been working on Thelma's case for so long that I love finally being able to engage with a real person about it.
1. The new boyfriend in San Francisco was odd and bleeds into Thelma's friend, Martha Ford, claiming Thelma was bringing a male date to her party on 12/15/1935. Only a few people cite the San Francisco man by word of mouth from Thelma herself--- mainly being actress Ida Lupino. I read that Hollywood actor Duke York claimed he was the date supposed to go to the party with her that Sunday. He very clearly lived and worked in LA, so not sure where this "San Francisco Man" keeps popping up. Also odd that Duke York's claims weren't thoroughly looked into or even really remembered. Ending twist--- Duke York's wikipedia page says he committed suicide in 1952. Interesting.
2. I believe the man living above the car garage in the Castillo Del Mar was the cafe manager! So why didn't he hear anything? Not even smell massive amounts of carbon monoxide? Earl Calder, the night watchman, said in court he patrolled the area and went past the garage 15 times on his shift. He said he never once even saw a car go by let alone the sound of the car being on until the battery died. So weird.
3. Eek, I completely forgot to tie up the loose ends about the key situation. YES, there were 2 keys needed to get into her part of the apartment. 1 main door bolt key for the front door, which Roland himself said he locked around 3:15am. Thelma did not have that key, she only had the key to her door as Roland & Thelma's apartments were separated by a type of hallway entryway. Wish I could go in and make edits even after posting a video.
@@hiddenhollywood5562 One has to wonder:
a) Did Thelma decide (once she realized she couldn't get into her apartment) to get to her car and drive to a friend's / boyfriend's home, then start her car to warm it up and simply fell asleep from too much alcohol?
b) It is weird that the night watchman heard and saw nothing when checking the garage so many times - but was he there after 4:00 a.m.?
c) Did law enforcement check telephone records - Mrs. Wallace Ford claimed Thelma called her at 4:30 p.m. on Sunday (after Todd was supposedly already passed on) to say she was coming late to Ford's party. I would assume there would be telephone records of such a call, not sure if that was true in 1935. So strange that Ford would insist that Thelma called her, supposedly they were friends for years.
d) There should also be records of Thelma's calls in the days before her death, one would think law enforcement would have checked them all out, perhaps there was some 'boyfriend' or other 'friend' who should have been questioned.
e) Thelma's mother, Alice Todd, immediately insisted it was 'murder', strange also.
f) Roland West claimed, on his deathbed, to be responsible for 'locking' the garage door - yet it was found unlocked, wasn't it, by Ms. Whitehead the following Monday?
So many questions on this one!
Two things that you mentioned in your video that you rightly call out as rumours, Lucy Luciano was not involved and she did not have bruising and broken ribs. She made to to the garage seemingly unforced, she wasn't knocked out and moved there, her shoes showed signs of wear from walking on the pavement. She also wasn't so intoxicated that she couldn't walk, Thelma had been part of the Hollywood party scene. I keep coming back to Roland West being involved, you may have seen this in your research: www.marvinjwolf.com/blog/thelma-todds-death-solved
Some of the details don't add up to me, but I am inclined to believe that Thelma had a heated argument with Roland when she got home late. It would also explain why she declined the chauffeur's offer to walk her to her apartment. She only had one set of keys because she took a small clutch to the party and didn't want to over fill it, Mae Whitehead testified to this fact. Hal Roach claims they had a fight, she stormed off to the garage, got in the car and Roland locked her in the garage. With the car running she was overcome by the fumes in a short amount of time. The police tested how long it would take with her Lincoln Phaeton. Roland came back unlocked the door at some point afterwards and noticed she was dead. Is this part believable, I don't know, maybe he was trying to concoct a story. Keep in mind that Hal Roach did not like Roland West, and Roland West was involved in some shady business investments. Was he able to convince the police to cover it?
I was fascinated by this case. Loved the way you narrated this post. ♥️😘
@@hiddenhollywood5562 He probably didn't smell the carbon monoxide because carbon monoxide is odorless. That's why home owners with furnaces install carbon monoxide detectors that have alarms.
I have loved the mystery for many years. I drove by this building for over 40 years every day. I lived in Topanga Canyon for 30+ years and worked as a designer in LA. I have stopped twice and walked inside twice during renovations. It is such a great story . What do I think? Well a few thing never made sense. One being her ware to the garage, her dress and shoes were untouched. The walk and climb barefoot would have been impossible, the road condition and type of stairs were extremely rough. Second the contents of her last meal, did not match what had happened at the party. I think she was picked up by someone at her house after dropped off, caught a bite to eat with this person then dropped off at the garage of the home up the hill. Who was that and what happened then, we will never know. It’s a great story, and still a great place of interest as I drive by often.
I love how in depth this is. You literally set the scene by going TO the scenes 😍
Thank you for commenting! I wondered if the commitment to on location filming was something viewers liked or not. It helps me better understand the case and the person's real life outside of their celebrity persona. Just filmed on location for new episodes in Hawaii, LA, Hollywood, Chicago, & San Francisco. Lots more to come!
@@hiddenhollywood5562 I very much liked the on location filming. It helped me to better envision the situation. I have a bit of a hard time believing that an inebriated Thelma with blood alcohol of .013 would have the inclination or ability to climb 275 steep steps at 3 am to get to her car (which I read had no heater by the way). It just does not seem very plausible to me.
I've never heard of an accidental suicide before. But I do think she was murdered.
Just discovered your channel. Excellent piece on Thelma. Have you done one on William Desmond Taylor?
I think that this is the best video upload on Thelma's story that I have seen on UA-cam. It is both interesting and factually accurate and to the point, as well as professionally presented. Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us. 💕 ^^
Love the channel... Can't wait for the rest of the episodes. Oh, and I love the background w/ the candles and flowers.
Thanks! Yes, definitely felt there needed to be more on the set than just a blank backdrop.
I liked the way you sincerely want to know the facts about Thelma Todd's death not just depending on rumours and hear say. My belief is she was murdered very near the cafe and placed into her car. I don't believe she was depressed, or an alcoholic. If she had anxiety issues most probably stemmed from any medication side affects in trying to keep her weight down. Thelma was a smart and feisty gal, a good heart, many liked her. The studios in Hollywood pretty much owned their 'stars', God only knows what the fixers were up to in Thelmas life. I've been a fan of Thelma's for a long time, I pray one day she finally gets justice.
An informative look at Thelma's death, which I think was a murder. There's a curious similarity with the supposed suicide of British boxer Freddie Mills in 1965. There's a suspected gangland connection with this tragedy. Mills was sitting upright in the back seat of his car with a bullet wound in his right eye and the rifle responsible was stood leaning next to him against the front seats. The fatal bullet was found to have entered through his open eye, which experts deemed impossible for a suicide, who would have blinked as the trigger was pulled. But the carefully placed rifle really tells its own story. And with Thelma, she was allegedly discovered sitting upright with her hands on her lap, which is strongly suggestive of a posing. And again this was possibly a gangland killing. It's as if such killers get it wrong by trying too hard to stage the scene when a car is used for the death scene. They're in a rush to get away, but they make sure everything looks "neat", which in their heated minds means realistic. But on proper examination, their idea of neat turns out to be the opposite. Whoever stood that rifle carefully against the front seats of Mills' car never stopped to think that a dead man couldn't do that. And whoever posed Thelma so serenely with her hands on her lap likewise didn't realise that she would almost certainly be lying on the rear seat of her car after dying of carbon monoxide poisoning.
Excellent vlog. What about the stomach contents (peas and carrots) that weren’t served at the Friday night’s party. Roland West’s deathbed confession. The wrapped Christmas gifts in the trunk. The woman was murdered!! No wonder she haunts the place. Keep up the good work. Thanks!
You investigated this as well as anyone has. But it is a deep mystery of which the truth might never be known. It's so unfortunate to have happened to what I believe was a very nice and talented woman who got mixed up with the wrong people, which is not all that hard to do for a beautiful blonde in Hollywood. I am suspicious of mob connections but as you brought out there are other very distinct possibilities. Thanks for posting.
“Privately told the media” 😂😂😂
I’m watching this for the second time. Excellent presentation.
The death photos are very sad, with Thelma slumped over like a doll, her hair tousled.
I think she was murdered, no question! I don't understand how the case was just dismissed after people were getting death threats in the jury. It's ridiculous.
Wonderfully done investigation. This has an Unsolved Mysteries feel to with with a dash of vintage flair.
Absolutely what I'm going for! I tend to be averse to gore and modern day serial killer true crime. We can have true crime, but with more mystery and aesthetics to it. Plenty of cases out there people haven't touched on yet.
Thanks for sharing this!!! ❤️
Well done video! ❤Thank you for posting this! This case has fascinated me for years. New subscriber here!😀
Excellent work. I subscribed a couple minutes into the video.
Thank you!
Accidental suicide ? I thought suicide was intentional
She killed herself by accident.
Accidental or not it's still suicide, as in she wasn't murdered.
@@bretwalda100 There are more than two options for death. Homicide, suicide, disease, heart failure, natural causes, accidental death and many more.
@@gator2813 I was replying to Mississippi Mud.
The photos of Roland West escorting Thelma's mother Alice to court proceedings are very curious. You would think if anyone would have suspected Roland West had an involvement in Thelma's death, it would be her mother right? Yet there she was, arm and arm with West like he her innocent "son in law" or something. She was with Thelma when West said, "be home by 2am"...
This is brilliant!
Here as a recommendation from Stephanie Post. Idk anything about Thelma, never even heard of her but this was interesting all around. Editing was great, for a 21 minute youtube video I didnt find myself bored at all. My only concern, interest more than anything, is the photos of the crime scene which you mention. A link would be nice. Other than that I thoroughly enjoyed it, liked, subscribed and look forward to more.
Also, killer outfits ❤
Thank you! I've been hesitant on adding copyrighted photos even if these videos are for educational purposes. For future videos I'll try to figure out how I can add crime scene or detailed photos in a separate video or easy to find link.
You gave a wonderful presentation of Thelma Todd's life! I think that the S.F. man, was the hit man! They brought in a fixer to clean up her murder! Lucky wanted her top floor of.her restraunt and she would not give it to him!
She was not robbed! It was personal and not business.
Other sources state that the encounter between Thelma Todd and Pat DiCicco at the Trocedero was not pleasant and there was a brief and very nasty exchange. For the record Pat was with actress Margaret Lindsay.
This is great! Looking forward to more vlogs. Thank you!
i live the next town over in lowell ma almost every other week i go to where she is buried on top of a mountain in the Cemetery with a great View where she could look over miles miles of land. If I could post a picture of it I would. R.I.P THELMA TODD.. thank you for this video makes thing more clear to understand
I really enjoyed this video and subscribed to your channel.I cant wait to see more cases.I think you did an excellent job.I like the darker side of old Hollywood and have read a lot about it over the years..thank you
I like this channel. Needs millions of views
Thanks so much! Hours are spent on these videos from location shots, script writing, story organizing, research, etc. At least 7 more episodes are currently in production or editing post production--- much more to come!
I don’t think there was a Studio System as such then but this has the fingerprints of Hollywood management all over it.
Thank you for a wonderful video.
It's been months since studying this case and I still have zero clue who the true killer is. Hollywood System could potentially be involved, especially since the mafia had huge control of the studios.
I've read bits and pieces about this actress, but now I know a little more. Thanks for this.
Jordan the lionheart ( daze with Jordan) did a fantastic vlog on this mystery, really recommend it
There's a problem with the "Mafia leaned on Thelma Todd" hypothesis that most people living today don't know about. The idea that some mafia figures wanted to use part of Thelma Todd's restaurant for illegal gambling doesn't make much sense if you know how the L.A. mafia ran illegal gambling casinos near Santa Monica back in the 1920's and 1930's. (Hint: They weren't illegal.) Let's say you were in Santa Monica, CA back in Thelma Todd's day and you had the money and the inclination to indulge in drinking, gambling and, or pay a visit to a local bordello; all you had to do was go to the end of the Santa Monica pier and pay 50 cents to get a water taxi (a guy who ran a speed boat) to take you to one of several party ships that anchored 3.1 nautical miles off the coast. The territorial limit of the U.S. back then was only 3 nautical miles. And back then there were gambling ships anchored off the coast of Southern California from San Diego up to Santa Barbara, with at least two of them anchored in Santa Monica Bay at any time.
During prohibition it was legal for these vessels to serve alcohol, or maybe it's more accurate to say they were outside of California and United States legal jurisdiction. After prohibition ended, the lure of gambling and prostitution; without any chance of the police breaking up the party, kept these gambling ships very profitable. The criminals who ran these vessels were bold enough to advertise in the Los Angeles Times newspaper. I was doing some research on a shipwreck which occurred off of Topanga Canyon back around 1930, and looking at microfilm of the L.A. Times (a couple of years before the internet got started) for a contemporary account of the disaster, I saw an advertisement to "Take a Cruise to Nowhere" which told the reader how to get to one of the vessels anchored off of Santa Monica.
It wasn't until 1939 that the last of these vessels were shut down as laws were changed to allow the legal authorities the ability to do this. In the Santa Monica area, a line was drawn from Point Dume near Malibu to Point Vicente on the Palos Verdes peninsula and everything inside that line was declared to be an inland waterway which allowed California to claim jurisdiction over any vessels operating there. A late friend; who did way more research on this subject than I have, had photos of law enforcement figures throwing a dozen or more slot machines into the ocean off of Santa Monica when the last of these pleasure ships was shut down.
So the L.A. mob had no reason to want to use Thelma Todd's restaurant as a casino. Just look at a map and see where Thelma's café was and where the Santa Monica pier still is today; though it was much longer back in 1935. (A major storm took out a big section back around 1983.) It was far easier for most people to get to the pier; and find parking, then to go to Thelma's café. Unless Thelma Todd had a gambling problem and associated debts; and I've never heard she had any such problem, it's difficult to see the mob shaking her down. You would have to have reports of other local legal businesses having to pay protection money, which I'm unaware of. From what I've read the local mafia of that time was trying to shake down local bookies, not legal business people. I don't believe this mystery will ever be solved. If Thelma Todd was murdered, which I suppose is possible, I think the motive or motives of the killer would have been entirely personal.
What you say is all true but with Thelma Todd's Sidewalk Cafe they wanted to attract the high end movie star gambler. Also by 1935 Frank Nitti and the Chicago Outfit controlled the International Alliance of theatrical Stage Employees and were able extort hundreds of thousands of dollars from the film studios to keep union wages down and avoid strikes. Charles Luciano wanted in on the Hollywood rackets. It is believed he wanted to start with Thelma's Cafe. After all, her husband Pat DiCicco was working for Luciano and the NY Mob.
@@christophersansone2755 - The problem with this idea is Luciano never visited California. The furthest West he got was Kansas and that was in a Federal Prison.
Now Bugsy Siegal was sent to California as Luciano's representative, but I believe that was in the late 1930's. Somewhere I read an article that stated Siegal made an earlier trip in 1935. So, there's a slight chance he could have met Todd, but Bugsy Siegal really stood out; so it's not impossible, but not terribly likely either. There's a list of known movie stars that Siegal hung out with. I've never seen any mention of Todd on any of those lists.
Also, Luciano only worked indirectly with Frank Nitti. For example, Nitti's shakedown of the Union you mentioned allowed Luciano to extort theaters in New York. Nitti had a guy named Willie Bioff in So. Cal. to do the dirty work with the movie studios and movie theater chains and Nitti concentrated shaking down theaters in Chicago. Here's the thing, this is all about extortion. There's no hint of gambling in any of this.
Los Angeles had its own mob and they were very much interested in gambling, among other things. They're just not as famous; make that infamous, as Luciano, Siegal or Nitti. It's far more likely a local mobster would have tried to pressure Thelma Todd than someone from New York or Chicago.
There are a couple of things to add. There are number of videos which show the building where Thelma Todd's business stood. The building still exists today. In one or two of them people got inside to film while construction was underway. One of them even shows the area where Todd lived with her boyfriend. They should still be on UA-cam. Look at the space that was available and remember there was a fully functioning night club with a band stand and dance floor, with the café and kitchen that on was on the first floor. I'm not sure where they grilled stakes that were available at the night club. But if it was upstairs, that's even less room for a hidden casino.
Then, look at how Thelma Todd died. When has the mob killed someone with carbon monoxide? Probably never. When they want to send a message they usually do it with a bullet and everything about these types of murders are usually overt and brutal.
I think Todd's boyfriend is the only reasonable suspect. I'm not saying he murdered her; in fact I doubt that he did, but if it was anyone it was probably him.
One more thing. (I know this never ends.) A number of written stories and UA-cam videos on Thelma Todd contain a ton of bogus information. This is useful to know if you start going in depth on this. For example, one of the favorites is to read or hear that the LAPD tested the type of shoes Thelma Todd was wearing when she died by having a female police employee walk in them on the same path Todd walked to reach the garage where she died and found Todd's own shoes were insufficiently scuffed for that long walk. Totally false, Thelma Todd's were scuffed up exactly as expected.
If I hadn't had a friend who house sat for relatives who were in Europe, at a home they owned about four or five doors down from when Todd died; and he hadn't pointed at a garage door and said to me, "I heard some movie star from the 1930's died in there," I don't think I would have ever had that much interest in this story. That was back in the early 1990's.
@@Kwolfx Luciano had an affair with Thelma Todd, she knew him well...
@@bhartley868- When? Luciano never came to California. Todd might have met him when she briefly lived in New York City in the the 1920's, when she was a teenager. Luciano wasn't the head of the mob then.
Todd was in her first movie in 1926 when she was twenty years old. Even though it is a lost film there are still photos from it that show it was shot in Southern California.
In late October, 1935 Luciano was busy setting up the murder of Dutch Schultz to prevent Shultz from killing Federal prosecutor Tom Dewey. Luciano feared killing a Fed would set off a major crackdown. He was probably right but it was already too late because Dewey's office started coming after Luciano a few months later. By March, 1936 Luciano was on the run and hiding in Hot Springs, Arkansas. Spoiler alert, it didn't work.
I don't see Lucky Luciano taking an interest in one small nightclub on the other side of the country in between the Shultz murder and Fed crackdown. He had bigger concerns to deal with.
Hey, love it!
I. AM. SO. READY.
Wait, is that Dark Pin Up?
Thelma Todd's co-star Patsy Kelly would go on to play "Laura Louise" in the movie "Rosemary's Baby." Laura Louise was Minnie Castevet's (Ruth Gordon) friend and fellow Satanist who both visit Rosemary (Mia Farrow) in her apartment.
well done video!
There's an episode of E! Mysteries and scandals. I loved that show and they have all of them on UA-cam for free if anybody is into this genre. The reboot is nowhere near as good. I didn't even finish the first episode. Not the same. Just like this new unsolved mysteries isn't as good to me for some reason.
I saw the 90's biopic starring Ann Jillian. Very informative video.
LONI ANDERSON PLAYED THELMA IN THE FILM
Ann Jillian played Mae West.
“Accidental suicide”-no such thing. OK? Have you read the death certificate? It states that the death was an accident, not suicide. As a retired lawyer, I assure you that there is no such thing as accidental suicide. Suicide is willful, deliberate and intentional. It is no accident. Words matter.
She never walked up the steps. Her shoes were in good shape, they would have been scuffed up. She was waiting for someone to pick her up by the stairway. Whoever it was knew what happened to her and never told - meaning he or she probably did it.
Very true! Her shoes were fine on the bottom. There is a photo of the exact shoes being shown in court during the trial and I've seen it myself. Also, a female of the same size/height as Thelma wore a replica of her outfit/shoes and climbed up every stare as part of the investigation. So many pieces just don't make sense here. Why would Thelma climb 200+ stairs to lay in a garage when she could have gone to MULTIPLE different homes nearby! Tons of employees, family, and friends lived around the property and she also rented a house a few blocks away.
@@hiddenhollywood5562 I can imagine someone told her that he/she would be waiting in the restaurant parking lot for her. She wanted this to be secret ("You'll never believe who I'm bringing!") so she had the driver leave her by the stairs so he'd drive off and not see. She walked over, got in the person's car - and that was it.
Really enjoyed this and all of the information you presented. Loved hearing the back stories as I am not familiar with Thelma and story. Great report!
Thank you! Thelma's life work never transitioned into the modern era based on pop culture. It's unfortunate that she's known so well for passing, but I hope this video brought to light her soul in a way that others didn't capture.
Groucho Marx, to Thelma Todd in "Monkey Business" (1931): "I know, I know, you're a woman who's been getting nothing but dirty breaks. Well, we can clean and tighten your brakes, but you'll have to stay in the garage all night." Eerie.
Thank you for posting what I consider one of the best documentaries regarding the death of Thelma Todd. I don't know if chloroform is detectable after a few hours but with her chipped front tooth, the laceration on the inside of her lower lip and yhe broken nose it is feasible that a strong man could have approached her grom behind and firmly held a chloroform soaked cloth over her nose and mouth, rendering her unconscious and proceed with the botched accidental suicide theory.
She still had to be breathing when lef
This is to finish my comment; She still had to be breathing for carbon monoxide to get into her lungs. She was far too intelligent to run a car engine in a locked garage and she was not suicidal. Funny how Pat Di Cicco's career took off after Thelma's death.
I've always believed she was murdered, but the who & why I'm not sure.
What is strange is why were her arms out of her coat? Especially if she was walking to the other house! I grew up in southern Ca and it gets cold on the beach at night!
She was really beautiful such a sad ending however it happened
WTF is an accidental suicide?
easy. it's a suicide that happens """""""""accidentally""""""""""""""
Are you going to do a show on the Black Dahlia murder??
Season 1 is almost 100% planned out and yes- Elizabeth Short AKA the Black Dahlia is on it. To me, the case is extremely clear who brutally murdered her and I'm enraged he got away with so much. Check out my Instagram Story highlight (@darkpinup) as I briefly covered this story around March 2020 on that platform.
@@hiddenhollywood5562 Can't wait to see that one!! The Black Dahlia murder is the big one!
@@hiddenhollywood5562 Yup, I believe it was him too...that rich dude father of the detective ;-)
It was an inquest not a trial! You say people said they saw her nose broken and go so far as to say look at the autopsy photos for it. What does the coroners report say. You can not tell if anything is broken by a picture. Would you go to a doctor who looked at pictures then gave an medical diagnosis?
what about the chauffeur. he was the last person to see her alive. who was he ? could he have done some foul play with thelma on the night of her death ?
Just as an fyi...my great aunt was in showbiz in the 40s. They did not wash their clothes until they actually looked dirty. They felt it would wear out the fabric and with the sequins and such it was hard on fabric and sequins. Sequins loose their shine fairly quickly. Especially back then. Of course they would clean them if they smelled. So Thelma very well could have worn the same clothes the next day. It sounds like Thelma had been slapped and cut her lip against a tooth for there to be blood. I believe the woman who said she called her and said all that ,pretty much. But then her married lover sounds pretty suspect especially with the bloody lip. Sounds like she was passed out or she would have turned the car off. Perhaps someone chloroformed her and left her to die. Maybe the mysterious person she was bringing or her lover's wife. One other possibility, as much as she drank ,she may have had a bleeding ulcer and had stopped and threw up blood and did not wipe her mouth well enough. She could have passed out from blood loss. Its a stretch but I knew an older man who almost died from that. I have a mystery of my own family connected to Hollywood. That place has so many secrets. And back then you could change your identity with as little as a phone bill or a drivers license as they had no photo on them back then. I wont tell my story as I dont want to tarnish any names. Ill never find out the truth anyway. So why cut my nose off to spite my face? It bothers me a lot now and then. Other times I can shrug it off. But I will never know 100 percent.
I’m a new sub. I watch a lot Laurel and Hardy. I was like she was VERY BEAUTIFUL. I didn’t know her name until some beginning credits. I was VERY SHOCKED that she was murdered 😢😢😢😢.
I thought Thelma only intended to train as a schoolteacher, she never was an actual teacher. Good video, interesting rationale. Might be worth considering the financial state of the restaurant and Thelma's suspicion that the accountant (Charles Smith) was siphoning off funds on a regular basis. And he lived in the apartment above the garage her body was found in.
It was no secret.... even at the time ...she was murdered by the mafia
After all, the question remains: who had the strongest motive to kill Thelma, a star comedienne in successful comedy shorts, and who had also appeared in features as well? DiCicco may have been capable out of sheer jealousy, as Thelma had moved on with her life. I don't know how strong Roland West's motives were to murder her. In the end, she may indeed have simply got in her car and started it, and fallen asleep after a long night of drinking. She never woke up. That is as plausible as anything else.
Or she simply died of carbon monoxide poisoning in the garage running the car heater
Personally, my hunch is that Roland was somehow involved in her death. I have nothing more to go on than that. I feel his deathbed confession quite possibly rang true. You might want to check out Hal Roachs' account as he was visited by police soon after Thelmas' death. His account is fascinating but again--like other assertions--doesn't make much sense. We'll never really know. Just like Marilyn and JFK. But I found this doc quite good!
MM and JFK rumour comes from a book that came out years after the death of both of them. It was fabricated by someone who knew marilyn but couldn't publish the book he wrote about her. His editor pressured him into writing something "scandalous" so he came up with that fake story.
I read that Arthur Lake was also questioned. Do you know anything about this?
I had always understood it Thelma Todd had a nightspot that was doing great ,Lucky Luciano wanted it,I guess he sent her an offer she refused so he just had her killed, then made to look like a suicide.
Thelma's "murder" is one big urban myth.
She did not have any injuries except to her lip from falling forward on the steering wheel.
Her shoes were scuffed from climbing the steps up the hill.
The idea the mob would have a move star bumped off just so they could use her cafe for gambling (when they already had perfectly lucrative offshore floating gambling establishments operating already) is laughable.
Thelma was locked out by Roland West after an argument, she waited for the cafe to open, turned on the engine to warm up (back then people generally were not as aware of the dangers of this as they are now, and she had been drinking), and dozed off.
Her mother, for one, would have spent her life raising the roof to get to the bottom of things had there been anything to this murder story.
I guess everything was badass
I always thought the Mafia was trying to buy her restaurant and Thelma would not say yes.
86 Years Ago
Just drove by Thelma Todd's Cafe a few days ago. Looks like the building is now a fully running advertising agency business. The area looked more alive than usual with lots of people out on the terrace. Not exactly what I wish for the building, but at least it's restored and not torn down!
YESSSSSSSS
YASSSSSSSSSSSS
Sorry, no evidence that Pat DiCicco or anyone in particular had physical encounter with Ted Healy the night he died. Healy had a reputation as a brawling souse who got into fights frequently, but he died from the effects of alcoholism. The medical documentation is very clear on this. E.J. Fleming's book qualifies as speculative fiction, treating rumors as factual.
Nice attempt but a lot of misinformation. Thelma did not work with the Marx Brothers at Hal Roach Studios in shorts. You’ve circled the wrong garage door where she died. You circled the wrong part of building where her apartment was above the restaurant. All that random footage is distracting. However, I appreciate your interest in Thelma. These are just rookie mistakes. Do a little more research and clean this up and you’ll have a more compelling and valid piece.
Thanks for the feedback, it keeps me on my toes and helps to improv my research for future episodes.
1. I lumped Thelma with the Marx Brothers as Thelma often worked with Groucho Marx. I clipped in their scene in the film Horse Feathers for this reason. However, the sub-research on her relationship on & off screen with Groucho and the Marx Brothers specifically wasn't something I deeply dove into.
2. I always saw their apartment mapped out on the 2nd level near the Octagonal shape with windows. I know that area specifically has a grand staircase. My circling on the map in this video was probably too generalized and therefore off--- you're right!
3. Yep, I circled the wrong garage on stage left rather than stage right.
There were a lot of photos and maps I would have loved to use, rather than stock footage, but I'm terrified of copyright issues. Might test the waters more in future episodes.
This case, as with most of life's mysteries (including premature, tragic deaths) is best solved through Occam's Razor. No evidence of foul play has ever emerged, and the simplest, most likely scenario is that she died stupidly and pointlessly, too drunk to be cognizant of the risk of gas poisoning from a vehicle in an enclosed space (if she understood it at all). Maybe she once broke a window to get inside in the past, that doesn't mean she was going to vandalize property multiple times for a similar cause if her inebriated brain could rationalize a viable alternative. Humans are not consistent, or consistently clever. Drunk people even less so. Accidental death resulting from careless mistakes and/or personal stupidity is many magnitudes more common than homicide, and without evidence, speculation beyond that conclusion isn't helpful or necessary.
Interesting documentary, but “had drank?” Seriously? I am perplexed so many native speakers make this horrible error. It’s not complicated to speak the English language correctly. Were they not taught grammar in primary school?
Cool vid about T.T. - kinda weird last 15 seconds ?
Did stepping out of narration into breaking the 4th wall seem jarring or out of place? Just wondering so I can make future videos better for viewers.
Excellent video and presentation. Such a tragic ending to a promising career of a young woman. Unfortunately, there appears or appeared to be sufficient evidence to convict someone beyond a reasonable doubt, which is the legal standard (that people seem to conveniently forget when high profile cases are pushed in the media). You did say that there are some that you expect more than others- I would have been curious to know who those are.
Akums Razor sceneries would be she came home drunk an hour and a half late, either squabbled, or was just locked out because of it. Went to the car to pass out and died of carbon monoxide poisoning. Very sad regardless., Her Cafe is now office space. How boring.
You look beautiful in this video!
Very interesting 21:48 21:48
Didn't Thelma Todd date the King of England (Edward) before Wallis Simpson snatched him away???
No, you are confusing Thelma Todd with Thelma Furness, Viscountess Furness who was a mistress of King Edward VIII while he was still the Prince of Wales. Lady Furness was also the identical twin of the mother of the author, fashion designer and socialite Gloria Vanderbilt.
@@lucretciaseven4873 Thanks
This video goes a little too fast. Photos and info with your talking fast makes it hard to follow.
God bless Trump and John Gotti
Thelma tood avait comme toutes starlettes et stars en devinirs la cuisse légère et frequentaient de la cliques d Hollywood mais aussi dla maffia et etait ennuyer par ces amants .
Map no
Ex husband nop
Crime of passion I don't think so
Suicide?! By mistake (mmmm)
Don't underestimate alcohol intoxication
WOW 😮 if you had blonde hair….but let me continue watching
Mafia involved
Pour thelma thod et le mystère de ça mort il faut savoir que son cabaret qu'elle avait construire il y a aussi la clique qu'elle connaissait voulait en fairent un tripo elle n a pas accepté fréquente lucky luciano je pense comme beaucoups qu elle a été assassiné .
Elle devait dans la bohemiene joué avec laurel et hardy qui ont été peiné . Elle avait déjà tourné avec stan et ollie qui disaient qu elle une très jolie femme et qui l appréciait .
Did you delete my previous comments?
👀 oooo
When Paris Hilton peeps your UA-cam channel
Thelma committed suicide. Drunk
when they talk about Roalnd West they show pictures of Roland Young..why?