Secrets of Nickel Knife Steels - 15N20, 8670, L6, and More!
Вставка
- Опубліковано 8 чер 2024
- What nickel does to steel, how to heat treat nickel knife steels, how they compare, and much more!
Written article with links and other information: knifesteelnerds.com/2023/03/2...
Knife Engineering book: knifesteelnerds.com/2020/07/2...
00:00 What nickel does to steel
00:53 15N20 steel and TME
05:41 8670 steel, Pops vs AKS
08:38 L6 steel
12:07 4340 steel
12:54 Comparing nickel steels
13:48 Nickel steels compared to others
14:48 High hardness with nickel steels
16:57 Microstructure and Wear resistance
18:33 Z-Tuff and CD#1
18:58 Why not more nickel steels?
22:54 Heat treating nickel steels with a forge
24:32 Heat treating nickel steels with a furnace
25:59 Thank you Patreon supporters
26:47 How to learn about heat treating
Id definitely be interested in an article on high hardness 52100
Svord knives has great success with using 15n20 for thier blades, every one that I own is tough as nails with the ability to take a screaming sharp edge quite easily then holds its initial sharpness for a decent length of time/use...
I'm going to buy that book asap, your videos are helping so many people in the knife comunity and I congratulate you for your scientific curiosity and devotion to find out the "what if?" of things on your study
I used to make a lot of knives out of L6. I had a good supply of old sawmill blades that I sent out for testing which showed it to be L6. It certainly makes for an incredibly tough blade but it will rust just looking at it.
Ive been using 8670 as jacket material in sanmai O1 lately... and also 4340 for tomahawks... this is interesting info. Glad i found this video.
Glad i finally found your channel.
I actually wanted to talk to you about possibly linking some of your videos, because im going to be starting a teaching channel, and your knowledge is far beyond my own.
Brilliant Larrin thanks for this video. A true service.
yeahhh so cool. I am thrilled to read the article on how to push 52100 to high hardness
As a sudbury resident, I approve.
I can’t believe all this information is free! Now that you designed magnetcut, a balanced steel help with Apex ultra a high hardness, forging steel with good edge retention. Now you need to design the toughest steel you can possibly make a knife out of.
And by the way, with all this new information coming out, are you going to update your book or make a new one? The book I have of yours doesn’t even have magnacut in it.
I would like to do a second edition of Knife Engineering but haven’t started on it. Hopefully after the new book “The Story of Knife Steel” is done.
An excellent informative and helpful video!
So good... wish I'd known this 30 years ago!
The L6 and 8670 seemed to kick up more mysteries than they answered, its odd to see the toughness of he L6 as it was something that was quite revered for being tough. But being the steel is extremely uncommon where I am, I've never had a chance to work with it. My 'guess' with the 8670 is maybe the sulpher and phosphorus levels might be a bit high in order to help with machining or something like that, or even just a bad batch in the melt for whatever reason that slipped the QC.
15N20 has been something of an under rated knife steel in a lot of ways, some of the first knives I ever made out of it a long time ago out of some Bohler strip steel were pretty crazy in terms of their resistance to chipping out or rolling and properly processed they took an extremely fine edge. Course they don't have great wear resistance as shown.
Your toughness tester is frankly, a thing of nightmares!
I looked at the pendulum and its weight, then pull the pin on it like a grenade as it smashes metal into shrapnel.
This is actually what I think is doing it. Because I've seen some certs on 8670 and besides sulfur and phosphorus contents changing they're all uber close together. And some of the certs seem to have ridiculously high contents compared to the standard.
15n20 is def underrated. Ive used it in very thin chef knives and it performed well.
Very good 👏
I looked at the data on a few of your charts and I was wondering why there were not that many nickel steels on the market and even fewer used in knives. Thanks for answering my question.
We have known about the effects of Nickel in steel for over 100 years, but at the same time we are learning more about steel every year. Personally I want to see more R&D on nickel alloy steels, and the development of new nickel alloy steels.
I spent more time than I care to admit looking at the interactive steel website.
A lot of Japanese steels, especially knife steels, use Nickel in them (Typically less than 1%), and we do not complain about them. In fact we often praise Japanese steels for their toughness and edge holding ability (could be propaganda).
@@johnsmithfakename8422I think there are great Japanese steels, but just like with the katana and some other things, it is often overhyped and has a mystical connotation to it. Similar to the whole "carbon steel" craze.
Great information as always! I was wondering if you could provide info about S7, especially when compared to other high toughness steels (high alloy high toughness steel video would make sense)
4340 sounds like what I’ve been looking for in a large chopper steel. 12-14” blade, 3/16”-1/4” thick, and able to cut/shape with a file. I want to be able to file out the damage these kinds of blades take often.
Thanks for doing the work and sharing it with us! If I ever reach the point where I don't think I'll learn a lot from your book and videos I will assume my brain has ossified.
Could Hydrogen embrittlement be a problem from the manufacturer depending on the type of heat source they use for the as delivered condition? If so it could be that you can improve on the toughness of the L6 by a long 6-12 hours sub 700 heat before the thermal cycle and HT.
If you don’t anneal the steel you can’t have any pudding, how can you have any pudding if you don’t anneal the steel! 😁
Would be really interesting to see what happens to 15N20 if you also give it a cryo treatment! Especially if nickel stabilizes retained austenite. Will the hardness toughness balance be off the chart or was the steel getting some of his stellar toughness from that retained austenite?
Axes is like the only use I could see for 4340. 5160 15n20 and 8670 are all top tier strength wise for swords and in some cases too strong for good simulators of originals. But more then enough for just an uber durable sword.
Also crucible L6 is considered rhe better L6 alloy for our uses.
Give 54 to 60hrc at max for swords pretty sure 15n20 and 8670 take the cake. Cheap easily heat treated, not overly hard to shape stock removal or forge. Fairly available.
Z tuff might be a decent alternative for less toughness but higher hardness and wear resistance plus corrosion resistance.
I've always been curious how 4340 stacks up as a blade steel since it's used for a lot of structural parts at work. I imagine it would have very bad abrasion resistance?
I instal floors and bring different steels to work for fun. K390 and s30v were the only ones that impressed me while cutting carpet and pad. I can bring 1095 and m390 and I can't tell a difference at all. My question is, does edge retention only matter when cutting certain materials? No matter what my knife is going dull in 10 minutes while cutting carpet padding. I was thinking super steel utility blades would be sweet...now I'm not so sure that edge retention is even a thing while cutting abrasive materials. Every time I see one of these testers using rope and taking hours to dull a blade, I'm always like " use carpet pad, you'll be done in 10 minutes if that."
Also, when can we get apex ultra?
I have made 80crv2 and Elmax kitchen knives and even thou Elmax is highly recommended and praised. The difference hardly can be noticed.
While sharpening you spend more time sharpening Elmax than 80crv2 Tool steel. Elmax is stainless and 80crv2 is not.
The geometry of the blade is a significant factor, thin and long blades cut better.
So definitely tempering higher than 400° is not good. So veering a bit off subject going from 1095/15n20 for chef to dagger / sword realm. Would you suggest as said prior perhaps trying L6 with O1 or 4340 could you use it with 10 series??
S45vn with nickel addition when? 😁
Will this be followed with more info on 15n20 on the website? Added to charts and graphs etc? I am very, VERY curious about edge holding of 15n20 although i assume its similar to 8670.
I also hear that for some reason (probably blade bro talk) there is a difference in how the steel reacts to ht by steel thickness. Old posts and info saying "its great for a thin knife but it does crappy in thicker thicknesses" etc.
It seems for such a readily available and well balance steel for an affordable TOUGH knife that 15n20 should be much more popular.
日本でマグナカット鋼材を買わせてもらいました。
15N20の耐蝕性のレーティングが見たいです。
15N20はHRC60ぐらいの時にタフネス（靭性）が異様に高いようですね。
Why no talk of SM100 or other Nickeloids used in Knives? I understand it’s not steel just curious. My SM100 Ferris Forge Stinger is one of my favorites
S series would round up Ni subject nicely.
How would monel work as a knife blade? Always wondered
Too soft
💖💖💖
How can Torqing strength where it's twists a good ways before breaking, and lengthwise?
What type steel has the highest yield strength? The strength of say a bend and amount of force required? I seen stainless steel had a higher yield strength, but it wasn't an authoritative source.
Hardness and yield strength are directly correlated. So the steel with the highest hardness has the highest yield strength. There are some minor caveats to this but too much to get into in a UA-cam comment.
Oof. I've been using a ton of Pop's 8670. Should i switch to Alpha?
Thanks! Great info!
Do you have any idea when Apex Ultra will be available in EU?
EU is where it has the best availability: www.apexultrasteel.com/wheretobuy
@@KnifeSteelNerds yes I know, but it's sold out everywhere. Wonder if you have any idea when the new production is coming?
@@einashikt There is more going out right now
Excellent article. Really amazing results.
There is one thing puzzling me. 52100 on one chart goes from 65-67HRC while on the other graph it goes from 61-62 HRC. What is going on?
They were two separate studies and the values are so far apart it is hard to connect them on the chart.
@@KnifeSteelNerds Thanks. Why such large difference? Cryo treatment?
Austenitizing temperatures were higher and tempering temperatures were lower. The study was specifically about high hardness heat treatment.
@@KnifeSteelNerds Thanks again. Really amazing.
When I did forge heat treat, 15n20 was a steel that was practically foolproof.
Also I’m sure we’d like your crazy nerdy talks about highly specific stuff.
Do you think a video on case hardening may be relevant?
8670 from admiral Steel is about 50% cheaper than any place else,
But I heard they do alloy banding? I don’t know if it’s true, wondering if you ever tested any of their stuff I know that’s where Joe callatin gets all of his steel
so would that 15N20 be good for 22" machete?
Yes
@Knife Steel Nerds thanks so much. I plan on getting ur book as well. watching ur stuff has answered so many questions of mine and I love how detailed and in depth u get. in my opinion never boring.
Hello my friend, I have been following you for a long time. My English is not good, I'm trying to understand with translate. It's easier to translate blog posts. I want to ask you something, what do you think are the best steels in the stainless category for chef's knife? 1 not very expensive (eg n690), 1 expensive powder metal steel :) I would be very happy if you answer. I can take good care and sharpen well.
There is a link to the written article in the description. But the answer to your question is AEB-L/14C28N and MagnaCut.
@@KnifeSteelNerds I know aebl exists in Turkey and it is a cheap steel. very easy to reach. I am very curious about Magnacut, I want to make a camping knife from it, but it is not sold anywhere in Turkey yet. I hope it comes soon. thank you for your answer 🙏
Ah, Nickel, you old austenite stabilizer you.
Where can I get apex ultra
More is being shipped to several suppliers right now. There is a "Where to Buy" page here: www.apexultrasteel.com/wheretobuy
YOU HAVE A UA-cam CHANEL?
At the gun range - watching & listening to 2 guys - 1 goes on & on about how his 6.5 creedmoor is the greatest ! Goes off in detail - facts - stats etc @ nauseam , meanwhile the guy silently shooting the 300 win mag is stacking hole upon hole with ease - the 6.5 guy was Probably correct in what he was saying - and the 300 guy was better in what he was doing - Proof is in the Pudding?? .. the knife world suffers the same mindset !! - I bought Your book & keep it around as a useful reference - I subscribe - I watch - I thumbs up …. But academia has its place & uses & Limitations - but 1 thing that never changes , Proof is in the Pudding!! .. a good solid reliable sharp knife can be made in many different ways .. a Guy grabs an old file - used motor oil - and a cutting torch & he can make a fantastic knife … this does Not negate scientific study! but it does Prove that scientific study is Not essential to knife making - please take this as Constructive Criticism??
With engineering you have to learn many details to things. But having a vast knowledge of those details means ultimately you can ignore many complications and often decisions become quite simple. The end consumer doesn’t necessarily need to know every single part of the decision making process. But us nerds want to know.
@@KnifeSteelNerds I agree completely - But as a hobbyist and soon to be Pro knifemaker I already deal with sheep that genuinely believe the newest and greatest steel is the Only Steel to use - all while they r handling, wanting & admiring my own personal EDC knife that started it’s existence as an overused leaf spring derived from mystery steel …!.!..! Made in gas forge and quenched in canola oil ..
@@davidbunney3497 Well, it goes both ways, I feel the opposite. It seems some folks feel the details, processes and materials don't matter. Well I'm not a fan of people that don't put in any effort into R&D and quality materials and try to pass it off as "good enuff." Best of luck on your knife making ventures.
@@FearNoSteel well big brown bear - I agree as well - if someone tells someone , that this is “ good enough “ and they buy it , then oh well at least they r honest - if someone is letting the equivalent of hot air come out there mouth about there shiny knife that never sees sun salt wear tear a deers hide & guts or any use of any kind and mainly has a comfortable permanent life inside the scabbard with the occasional Amazon box it opens then fine I’m sure that $600 super steel knife is worth it ( not really ) .. I’ll make sure to argue next time with 300 Winchester guy why his accurate reliable rifle isn’t any good and he should go buy the 6.5 - and best of luck to U as well ….. sounds like u r gonna need it .. pS I have a real pretty knife I’ll sell u ? But sorry it’s a POS made of 01 , so I’m sure it’s just “ good enough “ I should scrap it for Maxamet? Or wait a few years for the newest name or a few after that for the next marketable name ??
Your story is fun. It would be even more fun to read and easier to follow if your punctuation and spelling - multiple spaces between words, commas in all the wrong places and unnecessary capitalisation - weren't as chaotic.