How to Heat Treat 80CrV2 Knife Steel
Вставка
- Опубліковано 8 чер 2024
- I found no less than 4 different recommendations for how to heat treat 80CrV2, and nobody seems to know whose advice to follow. I compare the heat treatments, test the resulting properties, and give my recommendation on how to heat treat it for different situations including with a forge vs a furnace, and for stock removal makers vs forging bladesmiths. And I compare the properties of 80CrV2 to other steels and explain how it is different than the slightly simpler 1080 steel.
The text-based version of the information in this video: knifesteelnerds.com/2022/06/2...
Chapters:
00:00 Intro
00:31 80CrV2 Composition
03:43 Book plug
04:01 Heat Treating Steps
05:36 Normalizing
06:51 Grain refinement
07:18 Annealing
09:24 Please subscribe
09:55 New Experiments - Annealed Microstructure
11:58 Austenitizing and As-Quenched Hardness
14:50 Toughness Testing
16:12 Heat Treated Microstructure
17:21 Quench Oil and Hardenability
20:23 Tempering - Hardness and Toughness
21:19 Summarized Heat Treatment Steps
24:21 Thank You
Strong work, my favorite part is how you used solid testing to rule out the different nuisances people hear repeated but never prove. Improving the knife community one video at a time, cheers.
Hey man, this is awesome... thanks for breaking this down. I really enjoyed your book as well! I'd love to see a simple broken down video like this for every common steel! lol
Always nice to see a video. Really appreciate all the work that went into it👍
You are citing Föll !!! NICE ! I had the honor of hearing his material science for engineers lectures shortly before he retired. He was a monster. Insanely knowledgable, funny and with a seriously dirty sense of humor but dressed in oldschool buisiness attire.....
Came here for the steel facts stayed for the star wars sweater
I have a Terava Skrama in 80CrV2 so was really interested in this
Definitely gonna continue to heat treat in a forge....cause I a paramedic and broke and forging is a hobby
This is awesome. Love to see something like this for 5160!
Being new to knife making, and not an Engineer, I was able to glean some previously misunderstood concepts regarding heat treating. Much thanks
Great video, guess I'll have to get your book, even though I may not understand much of it. Usually do not leave comments but this video needs to get out there. Thanks for clearing up so much confusion I have about knife making.
Winkler's heat treat is amazing.
What is his method
I make professional grade throwing knives for no spin and half spin throwing. I use two steels 80crv2 and 5160. Both are super tuff and do not suffer snapped tips or blunted tips. Ive stuck mine into cinder blocks even with no damage done
Larrin, I always feel like I'm back in school when I watch your vids. I love it!!
You are a freaking genius. I learned so much from one video.
Thanks for once more bringing this wizardry closer to our level!
Thank you for your input and for letting me know more!
Thanks for sharing your work on this steel.
Your vids, when played at 0.5% play speed... Knife making hints & tips with Terance McKenna!
Very easy to watch, highly informative, and gets a👍. Great video!
I've been using 80crv2 for some time now. Also, having a kiln gives me excellent results. Using the processes you've mentioned, is exactly what I do. I use Parks 50 as my quench oil, and the result is excellent in toughness and edge retention. I really appreciate your research, as it definitely helps me become a better Smith
How fast do you bring the furnace up to temp? If just doing stock removal knives what process do you recommend I use? I also use 3/16 steel so would the formula change? I have park50 oil as well.
You've figured out how to program a kiln? What programming degree do you have?
Thanks for your work. Its so great to have a well researched guide to heat treatment of steels. Your book is a blessing to the knife community
Thank you for the time and expertise you invested in this. Very interesting.
great video,very good work,precise empiric and clearly explained, thank you for sharing your knoledge!!
i bought your book and i love it,you have to make a much bigger one,take your time,awesome job man!!!
Dang this is fantastic on so many levels wish I could of found you a long time ago, absolutely great stuff, please keep on with this.
Thank you. I've been testing different HT methods for 80Crv2 and it's reassuring that my conclusions are similar to yours. Great video and book!
Your effort at plugging your book in such artistic manner paid off. I just bought a copy.
Thanks! I'm going to have to study a lot to keep up with your presentations. The summary of the method at the end is very helpful.
Thanks for another great video. This one rally hit the spot!
Thanks for the video, was contemplating purchasing some 80crv2, still thinking about it. I purchased your book, and have been selectively going through it. I’m new to knife making, and am amazed how steel can change in a solid state through different heating processes. Don’t have a heat treating oven so will be using your suggested methods for heat treating until I can get one. Once again, thank you!
As a knife maker and a StarWars fan great video and love the sweatshirt and LEGO X-Wing and what looks like a snow speeder 😁👍🏻
This video just made my day !!!! Thanks for the awesome info !!!!!!
Wow I love how you explain this you should have many more subscribers please keep making videos
I’m half way through your book and I’m already a better knife maker. I wish this video had been available when I started the hobby several years ago.
Always appreciated! Somewhat understood. I’ll have a second listen before I HT 80crv2.
Bought your book last night.
Awesome work, I appreciate the info!
Still waiting on that Surgical Stainless video 😂
Just kidding, of course. Much love and appreciation for your work. Thanks, Larrin!
WOW that is a lot of information! I love my WINKLER belt knife in 80CrV2 !!
Dude I love my winkler woodsman but I’m always conflicted that I straight up spent $380 on a knife… and on a knife with a steel that as Larrin says is so “boring” lmao. It’s a true workhorse of a user knife but Jesus Christ I spent $380 on a low alloy carbon steel. Still, performance wise, no complaints so far and it takes a stupid sharp edge so easily, which I guess is why Winkler likes to make his knives with 80CrV2.
@@andresgamba1478 the Woodsman is an Awesome WINKLER blade. $380 is a lot of money, but it’s a WINKLER. Mine was $350 , and I am glad I spent it. I have 4 knives
@@andresgamba1478 Winkler and RMJ using 80CrV2 is completely corrupt. This is for their own ease of manufacture. Their prices are immoral for what you're getting. RMJ also uses 3V and Magnacut - so they defiantly know better - though they charge even more ridiculous prices for their 3V offerings.
@@mlentsch then don’t buy them, what can I say? The steel a knife uses is not the only factor in its price, nor is it even the most expensive factor in knife production. Me and a buddy of mine who both carry a winkler as users will swear by them but I can understand your conception that a knife in 80CrV2 shouldn’t be that expensive, even if I disagree.
Love your book!
Great stuff!
Lol, good plug on the book. I bought one a while back, it's solid. Good job.
I'm glad you put this up because in a brief dalliance I had doing some fairly basic 80CRV2 knives I did find it a fairly complicated metal compared to say 1084 and this has gone a way to explaining were I found a few hang-ups along the way during my (furnace controlled) heat treating. This is going back before I had your book and was sort of aggregating info on it from other sources and the manufacturer. Not to be too dismissive of the metal I did reach a point that in some ways its not offering a lot in terms of some areas and quite surpassed in others by high alloy-mid carbon sort of equivalent applications and that literally for me came down to processing and repeatable results.
Some of my 80CRV2 was really very good, others are just mediocre and it wasn't really very consistent, the other sad nail in the no-go for it was that for some ungodly reason it just corrodes so quickly! Dunno exactly why, but I could literally do some wet sanding on say a piece of 26C3, dry it off well and put it aside, come back 2 days later and it'll be fine. The 80CRV2 was developing the first stages of rust on the side I wasn't actively working on, do that side and by the time it flipped back over it had started rusting again on the side I'd just first done: Which by all means can be worked around and treated, fiddling with and so on, but there's just some extra things you don't need in your life.
Thanks again for this one
Thanks very much for this video Larrin, and your book which is a really great resource. I'm in the process of heat treating a chopper I made out of pattern welded steel. I used 80crv2 (Jantz), and 15n20. It's very confusing trying to figure out the right method to heat treat since it's 2 different steels with differing properties. Since I wasn't sure, and for 15n20 your book says to austenitize at 1475 for 10 min which is close to the recommendation for 80crv2, I'm going with the 80crv2 rec. I do have a new Jen Ken vertical air bath kiln, which is AWESOME, so that should help. I've already completed the normalizing and heat treating steps, and will quench it tomorrow in parks 50, then planning to temper at 400 for 2 hrs x 2. Thanks again for the good advice! PS. I'd love to see a video outlining some general rules/recommendations for heat treating pattern welded steel in the future, but I know that must be a seriously tough subject to tackle!
Killer video thank-you
I'm going to need a copy of that book.
I got a copy of that book.
Haha I love how you came back to that comment!
@@kentsanders7127
Contrats. The edge geometry and heat treat matter more than the steel, so now you can do everything right and put shame to most commercial knives
Great video thank you
I'm loving this stuff I can follow along but got allot to learn. Might get his book. Praise God for this nerd 🤓
I definitely need to buy the “Knife Engineering” manual.
24:13 quite pasiv agresiv there, i love it!😂
Btw thank you so much for your video. It helps a lot!
3:45 Oh wow that's funny we have the same book !
Great info thank-you 👍
Well done friend thanks
I am more familiar with naval battleship Krupp-type nickel-chromium armor mild steels (0.25-0.55% Carbon). Your explanation on the problems with using too high a tempering temperature giving temper embrittlement helped my understanding of the major improvement in these armor steel between WWI-era and WWII-era steels of these types, with only a couple of WWI-era manufacturers (US The Midvale Company in its pre-WWI Midvale Non-Cemented face-hardened side armor and, I believe from test results, Austro-Hungarian WWI-era Witkowitz Company face-hardened Krupp Cemented side armor). I knew of the results of this new knowledge, but not why it occurred. Thank you.
Sure doesn't want to miss "Who knows?". Can't wait. :D
Hope to see a similar video on 52100. Great video
This will have to do for now: knifesteelnerds.com/2019/05/13/how-to-heat-treat-52100/
Thanks for vídeo,Verygood this conteud
So been knife making for 5 odd years. Ive had a plate of 3/8" thick x8x24" unused aside from one axe cut 80crv2 that im using your helpful info to choose which project to make out of it next. Likely a camp axe.
Nice info. My nephew has decided he wants to forge and I am trying to get him to start to study.
I personally kinda hate the steel. It's just not one I have a need to use.
Wonderful video! I just wish companies would use vim var 52100 more…such a wonderful steel
Very thorough work super work, a few remarks 1. HRC below 20 is not defined, my experience with tempering knifesteel for best resistance to edge chipping is temper at slightly higher temperatures ie 260C twice for 30 minuttets.
Most of the Puukko blade blanks I get from European countries is 80CrV2. I really like that steel for buschraft blades esp scandivex and convex grinds.
So much info packed in 24 min! Why not do an annealing stage using a forge and vermiculite? I see you also recommend tempilsticks, would those digital thermocouplers people use in forges be acceptable for normalizing and annealing?
First of all thank you very much for your work. It is an amazing contribution to the knife maker community. - I'm about to start playing around with this steel. I am stock removal and I use an evenheat oven for heat treating so I have no problem reaching and maintaining temperature/time. Your results here lead me to understand that if I want the best outcome from my 80CrV2 from NJSB then I should still normalize and anneal in order to get the spheridized structure before final quench. Am I understanding correctly? I'd like to get the best I can out of my 80CrV2 for general purpose small blades.
how did I miss this video?? :O
*Skips important thing, watches video*
Awesome vid...question....I have some 80crv2 and 52100...stock removal...I'm using a propane forge with thermocouple and also a laser to get the temps as good as possible...is there a need to normalize and grain refinement before Austinize?...thankyou
One further comment, just came to mind. Maybe you could do 55Si7/EN 45/9260/modern spring steel one day ? With the ca 2 % of Silicon we have an oil hardening steel (gets "fully hard" in canola, i dont have an RC meter, i believe the critical time is around 10s in the TTT) that does not contain carbide formers and should therefore not have memory - but maybe new surprizes! I vaguely remember reading that Si steel have no TME but may have in some cases fairly low toughness for temper below the "blue range". Another interesting bit is that it does not harden from a quick forge heat at nonmagnetic, even in water. It needs to be orange/900°C. I have read that Silicon being a light element and therefore a lot of atoms at 2% acts as a diffusion reductor so badly that it retards carbon dissolution. Its a really interesting metal and there is little info on its properties as a tool steel and in artisanal use because it is not commonly sold in small quitity for tool and die shops. Given that this is simultaneously quite possibly the second most used artisanal blacksmithing tool steel of current times after 1045 because almost every blacksmith, developed or developing world has some and uses or used it at some point....i think that video would find a lot of viewers....
I would have liked to see a tension test of these materials.
Especially to see the difference between each step, from beginning to the end.
But it would add to the cost with a tensile tester and preparing the specimens. The tester might no be that expensive for the small specimens you are working with. Maybe you could find one used?
Thanks for the very interesting and enlighting video.
One question, I have regarding to archieve the finest possible grain structure on a steel.
What if I have a rather coarse sphereodized 80CrV2 / 1.2235 / L2 steel and I perform a double hardening procedure instead of cycling the nomalize and annealing process?
Would double or even tripple heating and quenching result in even finer and finer grain structure and may be a quicker process?
Some great info here! I’d love for you to watch my most recent video where I “tweak” the Wootz chemistry with the addition of some ferro alloys.
Thank goodness - I have pretty good luck with O1 and 26c3 in a forge, but without looking further, a little overhard and undertough for 1084 (it's not something useful for tools when O1 is available). I've also never seen any beginner get results that are anything other than subpar with 1084 and almost everyone refuses to buy parks 50 because of the cost.
(almost everyone meaning every beginner. anyone who fails to get high hardness with water hardening steel over and over will buy parks and be shocked at how the results are suddenly good).
Could you please make a video heat treating CPM Cru wear and CPM magnacut.
Thanks for all that info. I'm a begginer weekend knifemaker and appreciate all tips make me improve my skills. I maybe made a mistake but I bought a laser thermometer to check temps, but i'm not sure which is the emmisivity of Red Hot steel to set it. Your answer will be very appreciated. Sorry if my english is not very good.
The emissivity of oxidized steel at high temperature is around 0.8. But it can vary some based on steel composition and temperature.
Thanks so much for taking a bit of your time to answer!!
Where can I get a copy of your Book please? Don't Worry found it locally and bought it! Thanks for Your sharing.
My ultimate video from you would be forging high carbide steels or forging high red hot hardness steels.
Some of them seem to have a very narrow forming window. And cmon, how cool would a forged 10v blade be.
Also, have you discussed diamond edge knives? The friction forged D2 company.
knifesteelnerds.com/2020/02/03/friction-forged-knives-diamondblade-friction-stir-processing/
So yea I know nothing about knife making, but find it fascinating. Also all that complex jargon has made me cross eyed, help.
Sir, can you vlog about the numbers of all kinds of leaf spring? How to identify the kinds of steel that we use for jungle bolo, I mean the strong steel doesn't crack any kinds of strong wood or even the nail. Thanks.
Yeah it’s a good metal. Had one knife that could chip through cinder block with minimal damage
The laser is just for aiming. It is an infrared thermometer, measures infrared radiation. Usually an area of about 1 to 8. As in 1 inch diameter at 8 inches distance. The area at distance will be listed in the instructions.1 to 12 is also common.
My question is what is your suggestion for a steel that would work best for a skinning knife that can stay sharp while skinning a whole deer
I love that analysis, so now I'd like to hear you opine on why 'wootz' steel is red-short, i.e. prone to cracking when forged well above critical, even when the carbon content is below what people normally consider to be 'wootz', because all 'wootz' is, essentially small batch crucible steel, the 'ultra high carbon' thing is a distraction, they were making wootz down to eutectoid carbon content. De-oxygenated, AKA killed, unkilled, does not seem to matter. I know there is virtually no published data on this, but it is a topic that is interesting, to at least several people. ;-)
Could you make a small "knife" showing us the difference between brittle steel good steel and too soft steel?
How they are so sharpen, both how easy but also how sharp you can make them. And the edge retention test and a toughness test of the edge?
I do not know what my knifes are made of, how hard or brittle they are, but if I know how a hard steel and soft steel acts then maybe I could understand what types of knifes I have.
Thank you very much for sharing this information. However, now I am curious: what would be an "interesting" forging steel?
Something with more alloy I suppose
Please do a breakdown on W2. There wasn’t much info on it in your book🙃
Amazing video as always. I have a question about tempered martensite embrittlement. I’ve been making swords out of 80CRV2 and tempering them with a blue spring temper (540degrees F). After watching your video, is it true that my swords would be tougher and harder if I used a lower temper? 400-450 degrees F?
I’m making longswords with 36” blades from 0.25”, what would be your recommended temper
Thank you so much
Probably
I would suggest making a few blades and testing them to destruction to find out.
what if I buy Terava Skrama heat treated to 58-59 and I want it harder? Can I go from their heat treatment easily to 62 by 2-step solution? How would you do it?
Very interesting video! Have you looked into winkler’s heat treatment of 80CrV2 supposedly around 60 HRC? Do you have any opinions?
If he has publicized his heat treatment with temperatures, times, etc then I’m happy to discuss it but otherwise it doesn’t make much sense to spend time on it.
@@KnifeSteelNerds fair enough, thanks for the response
I would love to watch the English version of this video 😂 great information but I want to make a knife for hunting no to kill superman
6HRC jump!
Great work KSN!
At 66HRC how is the 80CRV as a blade steel?
Great video thank you for sharing.
I wouldn’t use it at that hardness. I wouldn’t temper under 300F.
@@KnifeSteelNerds thx good info, keep up the awesome work and thanks for the speedy reply.
W2 please. Not much good info on w2 out there. Im down to w2, 80crv2, and 52100. Likely itll b all 3 for different types of knives. Buying your book, cant wait to get it. Thx
Why spheriodizing? What is the benefit of having the material react sluggish to the austenitizing? Is it just retained carbides?
The S-word is my Nemesis when designing short cycle heat treatments in my day job with Lasers, Ebeams and HF... ;)
Love your book and your videos. You've done a yeoman's job in educating the knife community and separating myth from fact using the scientific method. And congrats on your success with Magnacut. And a special thanks for making intelligence cool again! 😜
lovely videos. Thank you.
Had any opinion on Kilns for nerdy newbies? I want to get into knife making as a personal hobby.
The one you have in your video may actually be the one I was looking at, Evenheat kh-418 120v 2200F, but I want to make sure I won't need to upgrade later.
Should I even be considering such a pricey Kiln to start? I have a CNC, belt sharpers, laser engravers, etc -- but maybe a blow torch would be enough for my needs?
Anyways, keep it up :)
I have the Evenheat LB 22.5. It is a very good furnace. If you can’t afford a furnace yet I would recommend sending out for heat treatment rather than a blowtorch.
@@KnifeSteelNerds thank you kindly
I like how you make jokes with the same even face, it's funny though
I'm a total newbie to knife making. I cut a blank from 4130 HT, ready to heat treat. Cheap forge coming next week. Carbon content on 4130 is .25 to .33, sounds like I can quench in water and achieve a low RC hardness. I can probably cut ten blanks from the piece that I have. Question, waste of time or keep learning as I go? Knife Engineering is on the way. Thanks for your time.
Low alloy steels like 80CrV2 are quite cheap so if it were me I would buy a bunch of that and start practicing knifemaking.
@@KnifeSteelNerds I appreciate the response. I found a piece of 4130 HT at an estate sale 40"x8"x.125". I've been wanting to try this, that steel started me on the journey. I don't think you can get a good heat treat on the steel, but should be good enough to get comfortable with the blank and handle making process. From what I read, you're lucky to get a 50-52 rc hardness with 4130. I know I'm talking above my pay grade, I'm at ground zero. Thanks!
Never knew how big a difference pre-austenitizing condition mattered. Would it matter as much for structural applications that aren't finished as hard? Something like 4340 at ~40 HRC?
4340 has quite a bit of alloy in it so presumably the starting structure would still affect things. Thoigh the fact that it is hypoeutetectoid means there isn’t excess carbide to dissolve.
Wondering if you would demystify 52100 heat treatment?
knifesteelnerds.com/2019/05/13/how-to-heat-treat-52100/
Are you going to be doing any metal comparisons? Magnacut vs Elmax , or 3v vs Cru-wear etc.
I have my steel ratings video/article. And typically with any article or video on a specific steel I give general comparisons with steels in that category. But I don't currently have planned any 1v1 steel videos.
ok, so I know normalizing relieves the stress from forging and also refines the grain. What does annealing do?? I know it makes it softer so then I can drill holes and file in the bevels. Do anneal also make the grain finer too??
knifesteelnerds.com/2021/08/28/how-to-thermal-cycle-knife-steel/
What if you use a muffle with a thermo-couple in your forge?
A muffle can help with temperature uniformity but I have also seen overheated steel from bladesmiths with a muffle because the thermocouple wasn’t seeing the same temperature as the blade. So it isn’t a cure-all.
I wish that I had access to this guy when I was a teenager making knives, probably before he was actually born. 🤔 😆
Thank you Jason Knight was the first I heard about 80crv. I have a quest for you. Not everyone can afford 50.00 a gallon for oil. What are some cheaper alternatives and what are the results of those?
You can look at Dubois or Maxim: store.duboischemicals.com/quenching-fluid/
maximoil@hotmail.com
There's talk about parks 50 being basically mineral oil such as is baby oil, is mineral oil but old timers say to go to a feed and tack store to buy veterinary/ animal approved mineral oil to use as a quenching oil.. I have zero experience with using such oils in an off label manner such as that..that said,it doesn't sound crazy..at least to a non Phd kinda guy..Cheers..
Jason Knight uses it even in damascus and tells me all I need to know about 80CRV2!