Europe vs USA Knife Steel (Powder Metallurgy)
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- Опубліковано 8 чер 2024
- A new set of tests using Z-Wear (same as CPM-CruWear) made by powder metallurgy companies in both USA and Europe. I tested a whole bunch of coupons from each to make sure the results are good. And I compared with previous tests I have done between European and American PM knife steels.
Article version of this video with links to the prior studies I referenced: wp.me/p9J9w4-1ZN
00:00 Europe Says Their Steel is Better
01:22 Prior Tests of European and USA PM Steels
05:11 New and Old Z-Wear Tests
Always appreciate your thorough, academic approach. I'm no steel expert (that's putting it mildly) but I am a knife enthusiast and your content is always, always engaging. Thanks for all you do!
They've ignored your main finding over the years, Larrin: that adding "max" to the name leads to a small but measurable improvement that can't otherwise be explained ;)
dang I need a MagnaMax steel
Interesting video! As a metallurgist from Austria, living near this Boehler plant, i really like your comparisions. They built now a complete new factory in Austria again. So we will see what they can do for the next step
Not to sound like a fanboy or anything... but you're friggin' awesome man. I really appreciate the effort you put into this stuff. Super interesting and extremely helpful.
Thank you for your efforts as it is greatly appreciated.
KnifeMaker/Medically retired after 47+ years in the Shop
Thank you for the tests and explanation. With these results it seems like it may be worthwhile to specifically test different heats of the same manufacturer, if possible. I know they don't provide that traceability, so it would be tough. Buying from different distributors a few months apart might be the only way to hope they were from different lots.
Thanks a lot Larrin for this great study!
Thank you so much for all you do.
Thank you Larrin
Would be interesting to also see how steel varies when it comes to how plates/sheets have been rolled between US and European steel companies. Like the difference in flatness and other things between Niagara specialty metals and Bohler/uddeholm. I heard European steel often is more flat and has fewer gauges and other potentially small issues that I assume happen during the rolling process (specifically with some CPM sheets)?
Your comment is right on point, rolling and processing would be great to compare!
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Consistency between heats would be interesting as well. Would be hard and expensive to test though. In general more statistically significant (more test samples) would be fantastic, but Im already so appreciative about the data provided!
@@thorwaldjohanson2526 apparently the rolling also has big impact on the carbide distribution, they have bidirectional rolling in Europe
Thank you so much. I both knife from RWL-34. Think it will be great. 🇨🇿
Pretty interesting stuff
I was curious if at some point you might do a video about inclusions in these powdered steels. I am a tool and die maker during the day and knife maker by night. I have seen instances of inclusions in S90v and Zapps version of it in my day job. I have found inclusions in CPM154 in my knives. If you could do a video about this, that would be great. Thank you for all you do.
Your comment is right on point, rolling and processing would be great to compare!
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Thanks for the video Larrin, i heard that you know Joachim Wirtz. Have you done any tests of his steels made in small production, like tnt666 etc?
As always……the operator/driver is the weakest link…..but I appreciate the minutia😎
Yeah I had figured thatd be the case. Besides for many if not most of us out here actually using knives in the field ie hunting, trapping, etc one will find we typically use really inexpensive & "boring" knives compared to what steel nerds/collectors are after anyway.
I've seen people use box cutters for field dressing animals. I'm one of those that uses an inexpensive knife. It's going to get used, then sit all year in my kit.
It would be interesting if sulfur, or maybe the silicon content is maybe the thing affecting the oxygen content.
Or maybe even something else. Definitely is beyond the scope of what i know.
Very interesting results. It seems that they are all just damn good. LOL.
What are your thoughts on the voids in Magnacut and CPM3V Survive! knives is seeing during finishing?
Excellent video!
There is a lot of talk about what steel is better for what and how tough or wear resistant this or that is. But what about cost vs. quality? What steels are the best bang for the buck, and what's the best places to source said steel? It's easy to find steel online, but what's the most economical options?
Any words on survive knives issue with magnacut and other cpm steels?
Hi Larrin would you be interested in going over some facts on nickel related studies like using pure nickel vs 15n20 or 15n6. or even 99% tig rod, it makes a pretty nice pattern too.
Interesting on how the cutting effect you proved.
In the same study you referenced we also looked at 15N20 or L6 as the “bright” layer and the same Damascus cutting effect was not observed. Pure nickel is very different than a steel with 2% nickel in it.
@@KnifeSteelNerds yes Sir
Certain there is probably a ton we could learn about all of them would imagine.
I have found pure nickel powder, although finding much literature about them is difficult.
Thank you for sharing your knowledge.
First time watching your channel. I thought, "Man this guy sounds like Larrin Thomas."
After reading the channel description I guess that makes sense 😄
Imagine investing all that money into 3rd gen and ending up with these results...
He never said in the video which European manufacturer is making the new Z wear, only Bohler-Udeholm with 3rd generation claims to have better quality. Is the new Z wear manufacturer Bohler?
Good watch as always. I've got no dog in the fight but have heard a few makers claiming they've swapped exclusively to Bohler steels due to an unacceptable amount of inclusions, voids and excessive warping in their American counterparts. Would be interesting see reject numbers from a mass producer like Spyderco when comparing something like 20cv & M390.
i can’t see that being that big of a problem because spyderco uses american steels exponentially more than foreign steels. so does benchmade. i see a LOT more s35vn knives than i do any other PM steel and that’s american.
@acid6urns I wouldn't have thought so either but it does seem to be the opinion of a couple of batch makers. Won't throw the ones who've mentioned it in passing under the bus but Survive knives has been quite public about it. Again not my opinion & I've never had any problems with Crucibles steels, just interested to hear Larrins take on others claims.
@@razorbackss survive knives is probably making excuses for the fact that they took forever on knives that cost ridiculous amounts of money and when people got them the knives were pieces of shit. i haven’t heard anything like that from other companies at all.
Absolutely agree with what acid said. Looks to me like he's being so public about it trying to put the blame on someone else when he's the one that was collecting the customers dollas.
Or Bark River’s MagnaCut fiasco. Stewart blamed CPM, and rightly so, for the large inclusions in the Bushcrafter Scout that DBK broke on one of their videos.
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When new book? About knife steel metalurgy :)
Thanks for the video, Dr. Thomas.
If you have any interest I think it would be fun if you did a back-of-the-envelope style calculation for the approximation of various steels longevity in a marine environment before complete erosion. Maybe choose a steel in the lower, middle, and upper corrosion range within the main categories. Possibilities:
S90v (or XHP-but you deemed it only semi-stainless), 14C28N, and Magnacut or LC200N/H1.
A2, D2, and 3V (or Cru-Wear)
Blue Super, 5160, 52100.
I know it would be a lot of work, but thanks for your consideration.
When it comes to “real” marine environment materials selection basically none of the common knife steels would qualify. Ocean saltwater is brutal.
@@KnifeSteelNerds It's time for Titanium! :)
Vanax SuperClean, Nitrobe 77 (unfortunately discontinued!), LC200N. All hold up REALLY WELL in "real" marine enviroments, even Vanax SuperClean should have the best stain resistance of these 3 (accordind to custom knifemaker: BBB)
@@JoeBusicnope, it is not time for titanium! H1, TERRAVANTIUM, Tungsten Carbide and lately developed ceramics are your best choices in that direction.
@@alexanderbertallo1995Those can survive limited exposure to saltwater but they would not pass the requirements of marine environments for extended periods.
Is it true what the SURVIVE company says, that the Magnacut steel is of inferior quality?
SURVIVE says the same thing about CPM 3V.
Do you think a weibull distribution could reveal small changes in toughness that mean and std just can’t tell?
The work you put into youre videos is impressive and honorable. 10 Coupons is a lot. I wonder could you heat treat and temper 10 different fulltang knives of the same steel. Because from practical view point the 10 differently heat treated knives could be tested in real life.
Then we could see how they cut and how tough they are when tested. That would be interesting to see the Real life results.
Tests like
1.Rope cutting
2.Cutting some soft and harder materials
3.Bending the knife in bench a little to see if it flexes.
Maybe even something more extreme but I dont know.
From theory to Real life tests would Cover the knive steels Journey. You would have a lot of knives then also 😊
I wonder how Japanese Takefu SG2 pulvimetalurgy stands against these.
can you use the powder metallurgy process to make a knife with a different powder metal on the edge than the spine? (to make it tougher without sacrificing sharpness and edge retention) ... You know, for those dutch bushcraft guys to baton with.
There was a limited run powder steel years back where they had a “San-mai” construction with S90V in the core and CPM-154 on the sides. Some have come up with ways to connect two different steels in the way you describe, two major ones are Michael Walker “Zipper blade” and Kershaw “Composite blade.”
@@KnifeSteelNerds thank you so much for the search tips!
Would you consider AEB-L a good knife making steel?
Yes. knifesteelnerds.com/2019/03/04/all-about-aeb-l/
Would oxygen content have any impact on corrosion resistance at similar hardness levels?
A quick search of the scientific journals I’m finding mixed results; some saying that oxide inclusions can accelerate corrosion and some saying they didn’t. My interpretation of that is if any effect exists it is probably small.
Could you tell me please, does the 1090 powder steel have European version?
I don't know, those simple carbon powder steels aren't typically made with gas atomization like PM steels are. They are conventional steels that are broken down into powder.
What’s the difference of PSF27 and PSB27? Carpenter vs SB or is there more to the story?
PSB27 is simply the new name they gave for PSF27. Why they decided it needed a new name I don’t know. It isn’t made by Carpenter because it is a “sprayform” product and Carpenter does not have those facilities.
@@KnifeSteelNerdsI was always unable to find out where exactly the PSF27 came from thanks for the info. It must be SB specialty then. I have a custom Strider in PSF27 so I’m sorta curious. I will say the nice thin edge geometry is my favorite part of the knife. It’s great at working flesh.
Great video, very informative, as always! My fav knife steel used to be M4 before I tried k390. Still enjoying s30v and s35vn very much. Best “regular” steel would be N690, in my experience.
Thanks again for the your work. So 3rd generation pm says it is more pure , except it is not... interesting. 1 ft/lb is not much, but 1.5 hrc is a big step up. People often disregard hrc until they experience a hard knife. In a lot of tasks, hardness is more important than abrasion resistance. I think we'd need a scale for Edge retention averaging Catra AR, Stability from hardness, and chipping resistance from toughness.
In fact I am working on a document, cross referencing your data with Metal Complex Hrc sheets and Cedric+Ada sheets, but I am unable to come up with an accurate number for Global Edge Retention, and how to factor in the numbers, except for a smart guess...
K390, for exemple, has maybe the same edge stability (hardness + toughness) at 14dps as Maxamet at 17 dps, and therefore will probably outcut it, even if it is less abrasion resistant. Because as you often say, geometry comes first.
He never said in the video which European manufacturer is making the new Z wear, only Bohler-Udeholm have the new 3rd generation process.
✅🙏🇦🇺
M390 maybe would be better with chrome limited at 14% (15% max).
I tested it and I found it disappointing in ultrapolished edge, hair splitting, can be also limited by not optimal heat treatment by EU knives company 😑 (very common problem in various sectors 😑).
A small folder in m390 should be at least 60hrc, it is not a huge chopper for wood making.
Sadly profesional human sharpeners are a dying breed, in Italy...😨
I give priority to accuracy of apex, maximum sharpness, medium edge retention is fine (medium, not low), and low priority on corrosion resistance (chrome is fine at 14-15% for a stainless).
CPM S30V and S35V are really good, several in my collection, high performers, old S30V took any kind of edge very easily, even hair splitting, ultrapolished; less experience with S35VN.
I still love D2 (old but gold 😃👍)... such a perfomer, for folders and small fixed, takes easily an hair splitting edge, ultrapolished.
K390 and CPM M4 will be cool to test.
Maybe I will test even a CPM 15V... that will be very interesting.
CPM 15V... will be my most desiderable one to test.
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Dropping the chromium of M390 to 14% would essentially make it S30V. Unless you kept the carbon at 1.9% and then it wouldn’t be very corrosion resistant.
@@KnifeSteelNerds
In my opinion corrosion resistance is over hyped, to develop rust on a modern folder you need a concentrate salt solution.
With normal use, clean after cutting acidic foods and occasional oil for protection... rust is a mirage.
...and with modern products is even easy to remove, if catch soon, before pitting.
Stone washing and mirror polishing also close the "pores" of steel, enhancing even more corrosion resistance.
Experts will even know how to care for D2, that is a "semi stainless"... you know better then me metallurgy 😉
...easy with modern oil protectors.
For scuda diving, boat use or average customers... that is an other story (h1, nitrogen...).
For me best steels are the ones that take apex maximum accuracy easily, even with obtuse geometries on fixed knives.
On fixed I like a lot D2 and Sleipner, own both in many models.
But it is normal that each customer develop its preference, for others can be edge retention, toughness or corrosion resistance...
Interesting channel
In that case the steel you want is K190, the non-stainless steel that was modified to make M390. It is a powder metallurgy version of D7 tool steel.
@KnifeSteelNerds
Never heard of k190, seems more interesting k390 but it would be better with 9-10% chrome, to be "partially stain resistant".
K390 is in my wish list for testing, with M4.
Still 15v will be my first priority if I can find an interesting model.
The manix in G10 is a cool model in 15v.
So many steels, such a confusion, it took me many years to understand them as a customer.
For normal life I just use good medium premium stainless (US, EU, Asia... made) or D2, Sleipner... occasionaly I like to test something fancy, highly original but done with competence 😮💨
Well spyderco mule series is right up your alley.
Larrin, I’ve been quoting your book on my channel allot lately! What a great aid to an aspiring steel nerd. I also provide a link to it on Amazon because it is a much better investment for a knife enthusiast than, say, another cheap knife! Is there any way for you to critique one of my videos? A good example would be this one:
Freek vs. Freek Rematch! Blade steel and edge geometry, did Benchmade nail it?
ua-cam.com/video/Yoo0Z1PgD3s/v-deo.html
Benchmade actually made a comment regarding my improvised test setup. I would love to hear your thoughts even if it is in the form of constructive criticism 😀
Knife Steel Nerds - I know I am not the only one wondering this.....but why is Buck Knives only piddle diddling around just doing extremely limited stealth runs of any Magnacut blades? Magnacut by now should be a permanent blade option for all of the Buck 110, 112, 119, 120, and 124 series knives, just as a basic entry-level starting point. 35 years ago, 420HC steel was a decent option for a blade. But now 420HC is very old and outdated, there are way better and more modern steel options to use that would dramatically improve the function, purpose and quality of the Buck Knives family.
As far as I understand they are slowly ramping up use of MagnaCut but I don’t have any inside knowledge of that. 420HC adds a high toughness option so I wouldn’t call it outdated. From a manufacturing perspective it can be fine blanked as opposed to waterjet or laser cut and is also much less expensive than powder metallurgy steels.
@@KnifeSteelNerds Thank you
The gimmick of the so-called super steels is just a way to continue taking money from unsuspecting people
American steel is best 💪💥
European steel is better
American steel is best
Obviously
Hahahaaaa
All i know is anything elmax and above in the low 60's rockwell chips at the angles i like to use when carving wood. I dont like M390 class or elmax right now
@@thaknobodi
Operator error.
@@CNYKnifeNut what angle should i use? Im used to AEB-L/ sandvik class and their edge stability. These 20% ish carbide steels always chip out on me when whittling wood at 30 degrees inclusive, including a D2 true Scandi
This is absurd and reminds me of two guys wanting to know who has the most horsepower in their cars. They can't tell by driving so they put their cars on a dyno to see who wins. Pointless argument. Why not make your best knife and give it to a chef for a week. All this theoretical crap is just that.
I mean… I haven’t watched this one yet, but Larren isn’t a knife maker, he’s a steel maker with an academic background. If you take offense to the conjecture, just buy your favorite knife maker’s knives and trust them to have these types of convos with the steel manufacturers