What is Next After MagnaCut? Q&A
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- Опубліковано 28 чер 2024
- You asked questions and I answered them!
Article/video about cryo: knifesteelnerds.com/2022/01/1...
Article/video about Damascus: knifesteelnerds.com/2023/07/1...
Article/video about thermal cycling: knifesteelnerds.com/2021/08/2...
Article/video about heat treating in a forge: knifesteelnerds.com/2021/09/2...
00:00 Intro
00:38 Nitro-V vs 14C28N
02:49 Carbide Pullout
05:07 High Hardness MagnaCut
08:33 New Steels After MagnaCut
12:49 Does a fine grain mean good heat treatment?
17:43 Pocket sharpeners
19:56 Outro
Sharpener here, I'm in Golden. Love these words of yours, Larrin, "In terms of what bevel to go for, I usually recommend go to a more acute angle than what you were doing before because you will get better cutting performance. If you start to see chipping or rolling, then back off and go a couple degrees more obtuse." THANKS FOR ALL YOU DO.
Is this not common sense?
apex ultra needs more hype. this stuff is wicked for not just forging but for high performance kitchen knives in general. congrats on all the success. you have changed the game.
How is it better than a kitchen knife made of MagnaCut?
@@Mojo_DK it doesn't have as much abrasion or corrosion resistance but it's able to get harder and has excellent toughness at high hardness. Not that magnacut doesn't but that's relative to stainless steel rather than low alloy steels like 52100. AU is essentially 52100 with a tungsten addition. Brilliant idea.
The problem is AU is crazy expensive.
For a kitchen knife I've found Sheffcut to be better in performance at the same hardness than AU.
Finer grain, higher toughness at equal hardness.
@pcap8810 who said anything about niobium?
How did I test them? Made knives and used them. Sent some off to get looked at under a metallurgical microscope to look at grain.
We're talking kitchen knives right? Toughness is irrelevant outside of edge stability, but if you wanna bring up Toughness Sheffcut had better edge stability at the same geometry (0.005"/15DPS edge angle, 65 hrc) than AU probably because of the lower carbide volume.
The more pure and clean an alloy (low sulfur and phosphorus) and the lower the carbide volume generally the better the Toughness.
Kitchen knives performance comes from edge stability (hardness/Toughness curve) blade and edge geometry.
AU was better than Aogami Super (its very close cousin) with edge stability at the above mentioned hardness and geometry. Zero micro chipping on the Sheffcut with very minor micro chipping with AU.
But you don't have to believe me, just buy a bar of Sheffcut or 26c3 and try it.
@@SuperSteelSteve That's a valid concern. AU is several times more expensive than comparable steels. However in the grand scheme of things materials costs aren't really where all the overhead is at when it comes to the production and manufacture of high end, lets say custom made, kitchen knives. Also in my opinion, while the costs could come down I do believe that this stuff is indeed an objectively superior material appealing to those looking for that "ultimate" expression of a thing. How much does that actually matter in subjective performance in real life vs. say 52100, which it's based on, or vs say even something like blue #2, or let's go to a "low alloy like" stainless steel like aebl...? That's highly debatable. Kitchen knives, especially at high end, don't demand very much in the way of toughness in general. Hardness beyond a certain point, I'd say beyond 63 or 64 rc, doesn't make all that much subjective difference either. The way the knife is made, the cutting geometry, the balance, ergos, profile, all these things will matter more than the difference between two steels like say vg10 or sg2. It's nice having something that's got the aesthetic element, grain toughness and high hardness of a fine carbon steel with the abrasion resistance of a good stainless that stays keen at the edge through longer sessions than carbon or low alloy steels would.
I enjoy how you say geometry is more important than steel. Your conversation with Zac was an eye opener for me. Thank you.
Really appreciate everything you do. I always feel like I should be be paying for this much knowledge from someone who is ferociously intelligent.
Great idea to do a Q&A format, thanks!
Thanks for contributing to my continuing education! Just got your latest book on the history of knife steels, and am enjoying it and learning. My wife refers to it as "Blacksmithing Porn."
A new updated version of W2 steel would be great!
For large knives and swords, for differential hardening.
Thanks for answering my question Larrin, you're the best!
Thank you for another great video. I have knives from Magna-Cut and I love it. 🇨🇿👍🔥
I have a spiderco manix 2 lightweight in cpm magnacut and so far its an amazing knife cant wait to see long term on the steel.
Awesome Video! Thank you for this one!
Thanks Doc! Always appreciate your digestible insight. Currently my only MagnaCut knife is the Giantmouse Iona v2 made in Italy. So far so good. Cheers
Great job
Great info. Thanks!
Awesome brother 👌 thanks for sharing 🙏
Great video idea! I would love to see one of these here and there when you can or as often as you see fit!
It would be awesome if you designed a steel with Bohler… in my experience they have one of the best if not the best manufacuring and quality process in the buisness
I don’t see that happening
Great new information for me. Thanks for your comments about hand or eye sharpening. Good video.
Awesome vid of Q&A, 👍 thanks
I keep a Worksharp Field Sharpener in my backpack. I *have* used it to grind in a new edge, but that took a lot of time and sweat, lol. It's pretty awesome for touchups and edge maintenance. :)
Thanks for all you do for the knife community, and explaining things so well.
I'm looking forward to a Magnacut blade someday. Seems like the Worksharp Field Sharpener is the favorite among the knife channels I watch. I have one and I also like it.
Ive always wondered what you thought about people using your charts as a near total replacement for developing first hand experience with a steel?
Your research is an invaluable tool, and it's amazing that we have it available to us at all. Thanks for everything you do!
People buy knives not steel, so their experience is related to whatever finished product they purchased. So a knife may be bad or good (such as poor geometry or heat treatment) and not be a good indicator of an objective test of the materials themselves. But people will always have misconceptions or misinterpretations of the data I present and I won’t have control over that.
I know you didn't ask me but I want to chime in. imo the charts are a general guideline. I see many comments from folks who clearly don't really understand how to navigate them and coming to false conclusions. In reality they are not even intended to be truly "100% accurate." However, as a general guideline they are the best you will ever find in the public domain because they are empirically derived, rather than emotionally derived or some combination of. Unless your first hand experience involves rigorous empirical measurements, then a lot of the time the intuitions folks walk away from some limited number of experiences isn't accurate either. That's not to discount the value of experience, it's invaluable but a lot of folks have way too much faith in their own casual subjective observational abilities then get offended when they are shown to be wrong. Just be rationally minded and evidence based, that's what I would say.
The main issue is that the notations do not account for hardness and people tend to think edge retention when reading abrasion resistance... when in a lot of knives task, edge stability is prior to the amount of carbides in the edge.
Mentally averaging those two with toughness in order to figure how acute of an angle you could go and how it will impact cutting performance is certainly an abstract task. I am currently working on something for precisely that on my computer.
I will put the numbers I'll come to to the trial of the community in due time.
I think that for the issue at play - real world knives - there is no way to accurately asses a steel, even with the amount of work Metal complex and others put to hrc test an awful lot of production knives. Because the way knives factory work, homogeneity is far from perfect in-between knives heating and cooling on a large rack. 2 hrc is the usual range, and that is a lot of edge stability. I often buy a knife like a loterie ticket, as long as the design is good... A soft s35vn is already something you can work with a full day, right ?
@@dayannahkali The notations do account for hardness, that's what the x axis is on the edge retention charts. Edge stability is a function of two things mostly, toughness and hardness. this is why steels like AU are so fantastic for kitchen knives. Edge retention aka abrasion resistance is a secondary consideration. in terms of how hardness in HRC effects abrasion resistance, the charts cover this in a visual way, you just extrapolate based on the trend and it's close enough, and additionally you can roughly calculate it based on the idea that while the HRC scale is not linear, each additional HRC adds about 1% to 2% to abrasion resistance within a given steel. So for instance, 52100 at 65 rc will have somewhere between 5% to 10% more abrasion resistance than 52100 at 60 rc. So it's clear that what's causing this is the quantity and the type of carbides in the steel and there are visual charts for all of that info as well. What's less clear is toughness because this is going vary based on more factors and it's not as easy to collect a bunch of data in a standardized way. but over time I have no doubt the site will build even more robust data sets for toughness as well. knife steel nerds is the shit.
@@jeffhicks8428 KSN is indeed that! Of course Larin include hardness, but the numbers out of the charts, those everybody constantly refers to, abrasion resistance, toughness and corrosion resistance do not account for hardness, except for what you said, the abrasion resistance gained from hardness, obviously. Catra does not tell us why Apex Ultra is more desirable in a chef knife than m390...
Cpm-s140v
Mega edge retention
I love my UG Tools Tiny made out of Magnacut and Titanium ! The only thing I carry. German engineering at it’s best, Solingen made Blade at 65 HRC, excellent edge angle out of the box, and oh that Titanium Handle is so sweet.
Very interesting video, i've learned a few things! I just want to say that 14C28N is better than nitro-v, similar edge retention, more corrosion resistance and same toughness 🤷🏻
Just watched your Mr. Roger's video which got my script for your channel👍Also quick story, by accident when at work I was plug welding holes in some sheet metal and blowing the welding plug with air it would get extremely hard. Tear up a drill bit type hard. So I decided to duplicate the hardness on some wore out lawnmower blades but I had some variables and the main one was the difference in the air systems I was using to cool my welds. The compressor I had at work didn't have a dryer system like mine at my shop. It was blowing oily condensation from the compressor on my welds . I finally figured it out and got my blades welded up and ground down which I went through twice as many grinding disc in doing so, but them blades were badazz and lasted all season. 😳
For the fella asking about field sharpening the DC4 is the best value and the Spyderco Doublestuff 2 is imo the best pocket sharpener. Coarse enough to take chips out if need be and you can load both the slips with some gunny and use them to strop on too. Stinky sandy Kangaroos destroy even the finest edges pretty quickly, the ceramic side of the Spyderco stone is a good compact alternative to a traditional honing steel.
Or just carry something in M4 ect haha...
Do a video or a discussion on wootz Damascus
I think the next big breakthrough will probably be in metal 3d printing knife blades. There is already a good starting point for feedstock in powdered steels, and I think if they can get the density and resolution really dialed in, it might be possible to print blades with complex geometries, that only need a quick sharpening to establish the apex! What would be even more incredible would be 3d printing a folding pocket knife, blade and all, in one go. You could do some pretty badass integral geometries
Can;t wait for in-the-field reviews of Apex Ultra kitchen knife steel ...
This man is like Elon Musk or Einstein with metallurgy……excellent young man…I’m now a Patreon member for what it’s worth….I’m a very low tech dinosaur but a high volume and quality pocket knife collector and user…and of course a buyer. Thank you for all your hard work.
Thanks for these very interesting videos!
Btw will Apex Ultra ever be available in thinner stock?
I think both of the steels you mentioned inventing in this video are really awesome, and in the case of magnacut, kind of just took super steels to the next level. I was wondering, and it may not even be possible, but I'd really love to see a low alloy ingot steel that has properties similar to 3V, but easier to work with and heat treat, and much less expensive of course. Could it be done: A pretty inexpensive ingot steel that's pretty easy for a small knife maker to grind and heat treat and austenitize etc. that is as tough or tougher than 5160, as good or even better edge retention than Cruforge V, and significantly more stainless than basically anything in the low alloy category, while also being at least somewhat easy to sharpen, and and being able to take a fine edge. (maybe not ultrafine) It may not be possible with our technology currently, but a man can dream. I'd also like to see a Super 3V made :D
Great video! What is the best way to sharpen magnacut?
MagnaCut has my seal of approval. Have you considered sponsoring bridges and infrastructure, just imagine, the shining “Memphis Magnacut Bridge”, to replace rusted whatever steel
Could I maybe suggest a future project for creating a stainless steel for pots and pans.
Theres this really interesting trend happening in cookware where people are becoming more conscious of the toxins they are exposed to from their pans. People are starting to avoid teflon in preference of steels and cast iron.
A big concern is metal leeching when cooking acidic foods. From what I can tell it seems like nickel is the biggest culprit, chromium leeching seems to be fine at the doses it leeches at. It also seems that 18-10 leeches less nickel than 18-8 due to the added corrosion resistance.
The reason I mention this is because I recently saw a very interesting saucepan on the market that is one layer of super thin 21-0 Japanese stainless steel. This is quite interesting for saucepans/stockpots (which often cook acids like tomato sauce for long periods) because liquids are essentially a heat dissipation layer, so thick clad pans don’t really make sense for these applications as hotspots aren’t really an issue. The thin layer of magnetic steel makes this 21-0 pan usable on all burners including induction. The thinner material improves how long it take to heat up and cool down. Also, liquids can be heavy so having a lightweight pot or pan is preferred.
So I feel like there is room for you to create a better nickel-free stainless steel, because 21-0 barely exists on the market, and honestly these chromium/nickel numbers that every pan uses to market their product is not intuitive to customers and it completely ignores what the other added metals do to improve the metal, they could use a brand name steel in this space.
You might also find some interest in researching the nonstick aspect of pot and pan steels. There really isn’t much research done in this area, cast iron companies have literally taken recommendations from their customers on which oil works best to preseason their pans, and if any of these companies like Lodge have any data on the specifics of why some seasonings work better than others and how that matches up with the metal composition used, they haven’t publisher any of that data.
There are also interesting new methods that are fairly cheap that have been struggling to gain traction or reviews. One in particular that seems interesting is nitride hardened cast iron pans, they claim to be more naturally nonstick needing less seasoning care, but it seems that most reviewers think the pans are lying because they are thinner than traditional cast iron. People don’t understand that these new cast iron pans aren’t cast into a sand mold anymore and are now pressure forged, allowing for light weight due to thinner side walls. It might be interesting to look at the heating property difference from these different types of cast iron, how does the nitriding process effect heating performance or seasoning. Allclad has a proprietary Graphite core stainless steel pan that promises great heat distribution properties and lightweight, yet has been barely reviewed.
There is also this fairly new idea in pan manufacturing (I think started by hexclad), where by creating an uneven surface with honeycombs the pan is able trap pockets of oil under the food making the pan more nonstick without drowning the pan in oil. I’ve also heard from some veteran cast iron users that their go to eggpans are the really old cast iron pans with surfaces that look like craters, because the seasoning oils get in between those gaps better and because there is less surface contact with the food. There are also a few of those pressure forged cast iron pans out there with honeycomb/golfball dimple style surfaces. So I feel like there is room for an improved metal to take advantage of these properties to help lessen the learning curve for caring for and using cast iron, carbon steel or stainless steel.
Right now thats the biggest issue the industry faces. A lot of people want to switch away from teflon, but many of them end up buying a steel pan and throwing it away as soon as they burn something on it, or if their eggs stick, or if it leeches iron and makes their tomato sauce taste bad. The closer we get to just requiring users to oil a frypan before they cook, the better.
New knife steel? Obviously stainless-ish Vanadis 8 / K390 / 10V. Pretty please!
Very interesting. Hope this tiny northern country would manage to start to sell Magnacut steel some beautiful day. Scandinavians are very slowly warming up for new steels.. Shame. Still would love to make that 175mm leuku from Magnacut.
Larin thanks for the video. Much of what you say goes over my head, but I am learning...slowly. I pre-ordered a Bark River in MagnaCut. By chance did they have any consultation with you on what their heat treat protocol would be? Just curious I am sure it will be a great addition to collection.
No I've never worked with them
After Magnacut?...You retire and live happily ever after...
Well, it sounded good anyway...
Dr Thomas- The type of steels used in the bolt carrier groups of AR15’s has largely remained the same since the rifle was first invented by Eugene Stoner back in the 1950’s. Typically, the bolt is made out of Carpenter 158, while the carrier & gas key are 8620. In recent years, a number of manufacturers have deviated from the military’s specification and now make their bolts out of 9310. I suspect this is primarily due to cost, although some manufacturers claim that 9310 is actually superior to Carpenter 158 (in this context, at least) assuming the 9310 has been heat treated properly. Im not sure if that is true or not, but I’m curious… Given all of the advancements we have made in metallurgy in the last 60 years, I imagine there must be better, more optimized steels to make bolt carrier groups out of, and I’m curious what those might be.
now i understand why custom magnacut is better than mass production
Hi .. there in the topic of non powder metallurgy low cost stainless steel using high power ultrasonic during casting maybe lead to interesting results. I had some experience with superalloys and their MC carbides
Any chance of you working on a powder metal steel for knife making instead of industrial cutting tools?
Any thoughts on the Magnacut used in the new Leatherman Arc?
vanax and magnacut,for sea,which one should I choose?
🤘🤠
Why dont they just DLC the Maxamet blades i would fork out for a coated Maxi endura all day
Hey Larrin, what’s your opinion on SKS 51, seems similar to 15N20. SKS 51 just has the addition of .20~.50 Cr. I just bought a Silky Nata 240mm and it uses this alloy, it’s new to me, and wanted to get you thoughts, great video!
I'm looking forward to that non powder metal steel with high toughness he's working on.
Is powder or non powder better? why are you excited about non powder?
Genuinely curious.
Is it really that hard to get M390 steel above +62RC ???where I hear is super desireable for this steel,all the ones being tested from MFG's are in the 58-60rc looking forward to your thoughts 👍👍
Can I get a discount coupon for Magnacut? I'd like to eventually see about making a handsaw blade. As well as a machete.
Hey Larrin. Can you make me 2 light sabers with the best stainless steel in your opinion? Tri RGB waterproof lasers in the handle along the spine. Full tang. Straight spine to tip design blade. Excellent ergos. A sheath that locks in with neodymium magnets. Cup shaped vanax sheath that encloses the blade magnetically along the spine and can quick draw out the top or the front when you pull the blade up or push it out. 9.61984” length blade 3.33” width .12345 thick. 5.55” handle. 11’ edge. 365 degree rotating adjustable sheath position with super secure belt clip. Welcome to the Jedi. 😁
You don’t have to put a laser in the handle. Anodized titanium grips will be just fine. 😉
Hi Larrin, I couldn’t think of another way to contact you with a question, so I hope this works. I ordered some stainless steel parts that I wanted, to place in a canister with 1095 steel powder and forge weld (the intent is a mosaic twist pattern knife.) Unfortunately, instead of the 410 I wanted, they made them out of 310 and I’m stuck with them! I was thinking of trying to forge weld it anyway, but I don’t have a lot of faith the forge will take, even with a long soak. I’m aware that 300 series stainless does not play well with others. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.
This man is the Tesla of Knife steels
You made a technological breakthrough in metallurgy. Eventually it will spread across the entire world.
What's the next breakthrough?
Would powder metallurgy manufacturing significantly benefit AEB-L? Or is the grain structure already sufficiently small enough.
10:41 where does Vanadium top out in effectiveness?
If someone could make a 20V steel, would could you even do with a steel like that? Would the low toughness make it just crumble?
knifesteelnerds.com/2021/05/24/cpm-15v-and-the-lost-cpm-20v-how-much-vanadium-can-you-add/
@@KnifeSteelNerds thanks!!
Am i alone when saying lc200n is underrated or what? Because personally I would love to see more knives using it
Where do H1 and H2 fit on your corrosion chart featured around the 11-12 minute mark?
The chart only goes down to 60 Rc so they wouldn’t be on there. But they would be a 10+ for corrosion resistance.
Sincerely thank you for taking the time to answer your fans questions including mine.@@KnifeSteelNerds
I can't get into the Super (hard to Sharpen) Steels.
Not field friendly when long use requires sharpening in the bush.
1095 does all I ever need. I think better description would be (in the city steel).
Vanax75 hrc 65...
Please forgive my ignorance, but do carbides actually lose hardness during the temper, or is it only the matrix in which the are suspended that gets softer and tougher?
Only the matrix gets softer
@@KnifeSteelNerds thanks for the quick response! This makes San mai steels make.more sense to me.
60-62 is definitely more common unfortunately.
Where would 316L be on the corrosion resistance chart?
It is more corrosion resistant than any knife steel but the hardness axis would have to be extended a long ways to show it
@@KnifeSteelNerds Thank you!
🤜🔪🤛
I wish they would run magnacut harder than 61-62…
There are a good amount of production companies that run it harder than that. Are they running it at 65, no. But they aren't running m390, elmax, s30v, s35vn,s45vn,S90v at 64-65 HRC either. All of those are capable of that high of hardness. I wish I could find more S90v at 62-63. Noone makes it that hard.
I tried also something I had not tried before on my chanell containing metal
Here we go again I predicted this now they going to introduce Magnum part 2 the price of the knives are going up I only purchase three EDC I do my research before I purchase
My big issue is now that there's a new steel out the price goes up knives I'm all supportive of innovation an R&D but then the big knife companies increase the price of their knives Benchmade introduce their new $530 knive all Titanum purchase this will be placed in glass case is showpiece it's not going to be EDC blade this we consumers decide to purchase overseas same materials for a fraction of the price. Knive companys are primadonnas. I really believe next year someone will create a new steel better then magnacut we are working-class men and women we blades that do here and now you think the forefathers a choice of steeles no whatever the blacksmith had on hand he would use to forge a knife.
That Benchmade knife wasn’t made with a new steel it was made with M390. Price increases aren’t because new steels come out.
That Benchmade isn’t even worth $250 that’s why they’re not selling. Their Tagged out knife is awesome though.
Chinese companies have started to use S90V in knives priced at 150 to 250, with Ti handles... This is just BM confusing cutlery materials with jewelry stuff and prices. They think too high of themselves, also their pricing is coherent with their nemesis' pricing. I mean, Spyderco has 200 knives with 20$ handles, so... Add an axis lock, a light no-liner G10 or CF handle, and 250-300 is justified. Just recently, they have gone crazy and everybody complained, but when spyderco does it, they quickly spend watever for some supersteel and flat ass micarta...
Meanwhile, Hogue, Kershaw, Giant Mouse, Viper, etc, offer some fantastic western made Magnacut blades at reasonable prices.
Benchmade is insanely over priced compared to Spyderco, spyderco routinely puts out exclusive knives at insanely low prices. For instance, over the last few months they put out a LW para 3 and s90v pm2 that were under 160$ USA made, it's hard to beat that. Benchmade, which I use to be a fan of has really jumped on the greed train. I don't want to hear economy excuses from them, Hogue and SPYDERCO both cost a third of a Benchmade. Spydercos does have some models that are overpriced for sure, but they have some well priced ones as well, Benchmade is overpriced on about every model, even the S30V griptillian is 145-155, use to be able to get it for 90-100.
@@GBall_Vision their narrow, immunity and Magnacut lines are overpriced, yes, but most others are just around 50 more than Spydercos', which is understandable imho. Cruwear mini damas 230, M4 freek 250, cf S90V bugout 250...
Answers without actually answering. 🤦🏻♂️