Dylan Johnson did a very detailed video on pedal technique and the research agrees with the author. It's a good watch. The gist of it was, whilst focusing on pedaling circles does indeed produce a smoother torque load, gross pedaling efficiency was greater when focusing on the down stroke. As power output increases the increase comes almost exclusively from more torque on the down stroke.
I will definitely need to research more and I know what they say must have been scientifically proven. It seems to me however that focusing on the downstroke is dangerously linked to setting the saddle too high. I have made that mistake and maybe got fixated with this issue.
@@fede1275 over focusing on downstroke can lead to saddle too high and over focusing on pedaling smooth efficient circles can lead to saddle too low. Both can cause pain and power loss.
@@ShawnStradamus520 simple solution for punters willing to spend arm and leg for blingy bike but tight arse when it comes to getting comprehensive bike fit. I understand being cynical with bike fitting and want to self bike fit themselves which takes experimentation to get it right. If you don’t want to deal with headache and potential aches and pains in the future then just get a bike fit. It’s that simple. Also if you are a crap mover off the bike then that will translate on the bike. Resistance training has been proven to help masters athletes doing endurance sports.
That was my book recommendation! Thanks for a great review and some interesting thoughts on the pedal stroke…I was a bit surprised by Phil’s view on the pedal stroke too. I think you have a good opportunity to make this channel the voice of the midlife cyclist given most of the other good cycling channels are from a younger viewpoint (with the exception of Mr Lee obvs). Grazie!
Ah!!! Thank you again Gian Paolo!!! That was a great recommendation. I am not sure if I am correct on the technique, but I like to share my experience with the videos. Yes, I try to give another perspective, I watch other youtubers and I try to add something I could not find.
Kinda funny to find this comment. In my local area there are a few elite cyclist that blast downhill and reach 50+ mph. Both handling skills and probably racing (or tt) bike setup... not that easy to get komhaha.
Hi, thanks for your videos. I truly enjoy your cycling reviews and tips. I found your reviews honest and unbiased and most importantly, very useful for the regular cyclists. I just want to make a small suggestion. I have a hard time with the audio of the video. If you could record the video with a mic, I think it would make a huge difference. Thanks and keep up the good work.
Thank you very much, I have a mic (even if is a cheap one) and I thought the room was silent enough not to use it. It did not work really well, I agree. Next time!
Hi Federico, I want to thank you for your videos, they are really informative for a midlife cyclist as I am too. I really like your balanced and calm way of talking. Being myself an Italian abroad in a northern Nation I would like to commute during fall and winter with bike, and I find your channel really interesting. Thanks, Andrea
Yes resistance training for cyclists is extremely beneficial. The best workout for me are basic calisthenics movements like pull up, squad, dip, push up etc. Obviously you have to know your limits, especially in middle ages 🙂. Circular movements are definitely more efficient pedaling technique for myself too. Saddle too high seems to be be very common issue of many cyclists. 🚴 Save your hips😜 and stay fit and free!
I would say our limits are dictated by ageing ligaments and joints, that is why I always try to warm up properly. Muscle power seems to have not decreased so far.
@@fede1275 In fact, you'll be fit to increase your anaerobic threshold and ride stronger, without damaging the ligaments and joints, rather, strengthening them. I threw out a knee deadlifting heavy weights, made worse cycling. Then I learned how to spin and a few years later, the knee healed. Can make it up heart wrenching climbs without hurting the knees. It's mainly the gradual take up and release of slow twitch muscles conditioned by spinning. To add to what David M is saying, Eddy Boreswicz [sp] the coach who trained Alexi Grewal to win the Olympic road race. He recommended blood boosting, now illegal, but also light weight lifting sessions during the off season, to total around 10,000 pounds, easily accomplished in an hour or so.. I did it one winter and felt a couple of years younger when back on the road. It definitely increases upper body stamina. Get up a nice spin and the bike is yours. Nothing hurts.
@@paulmcknight4137 I agree with you, but as long as the weight is challenging still. I'm not sure if you will get the same benefit from light weight without other external "enhancements"?
Really enjoying your vlogs young man. Here are my experiences. The glute complex stabilises the legs/stroke. I focus on a smooth, even circle, emanating from my glutes with a firm core. Its worked for me for 40 years. Yes. I am old. Thanks man
As someone who had a TFL (hip flexor) strain while doing long distance (200-300km) rides, my issues were solved by adjusting my bike fit and also doing strength work and activations for my glutes. My fitter adjusted my saddle's angle and fore/aft position to move me over the bottom bracket with a more open hip angle and also adjusted my Q-factor. He also suggested I focus more on the downstroke and not pull up so much on the up stroke, reasoning that if I focus on the downstroke, I should get more even power distribution between L/R legs because when tired, the brain can't focus on down/up stroke between the two legs as evenly, so the dominant leg will take over causing repetitive use injuries over a long period of time. My fitter also said doing circles is fine for short bursts on flat roads if one needs to recover certain leg muscles on long rides.
Thanks for the awesome review, and damn I guess my inner hip muscles are super strong because when I get tired I try to pull my feet upwards out of my shoes, or at least make it feel like it, this is crazy you mention this. Love your videos!
Thank you! For me it worked concentrating on having a constant pressure from 2pm to 7pm of the pedal stroke. I found out I was too high as at 6pm I could feel less pressure and the sole pulling away a little. So if you pull the foot upwards you lose contact and power imo
Hi Federico, thanks for you nice videos. Actually, I have a balance issue. My performance split is 60 / 40. This is why I looked into this issue in more detail some time ago. Having a Garmin Powermeter and using cycling dynamics there is quite some data available helping to get a better understanding whether there is a real power effect coming with the upstroke. From what I can see, this is not the case. Powerphases start around 10 degrees and end at roughly 200 degrees. There is no relevant positive moment of force connected to the upstroke. Actually, it's already difficult to avoid a negative torque induced by the sole weight of the leg during the upstroke. I think it's worthwhile to spend training on a smooth pedalling style optimizing the transitions at 0 and 180 degrees achieving a somehow "circular and efficient movement". But that's all you can get - from my experience at least. Power output is heavily dominated by the downstroke.
I believe you are right and I looked into this in more detail. I agree that there is no benefit on the upstroke and I have used that term in the wrong context myself. I still believe in circular pedalling and in the benefit of the 'scraping off the mud' between 5pm and 7pm. I am thinking of a new video to explain 😄
I think a good thing to do is to get a professional bike fit and have your position analysed to see if there can be any improvement on your technique. That’s what I need to do anyway for piece of mind.
Yes, of course. For now I am still trying to understand the mechanics and learn as much as I can myself. Definitely if something starts to hurt it's best to see a professional
Hi Federico, I just discovered your YT channel and already subscribed to it. Very interesting and finely analyzed issues. This video is not the exception. I wonder if more than 50% of your channel members are over 50s +. That is great to learn from the seniors and experienced cyclists. Thanks for sharing your experiences. Ciao!
I'm 63 and look and feel twenty years younger than my cohorts, because I've trained on my bikes for 40 years. High intensity, long slow distance and weight training.
@@martinbrodie8507 That's really great. In my opinion the key is to add weight training. I'm not sure why there is still a stigma attached to gym training. Of course we need to be more careful and make sure form is perfect as ligaments and joints are not the same as when we were younger.
I think in general a circular movement makes sense as it is the smoothest method and makes one think of producing power through more of the stroke, otherwise there is little point to being clipped in. However the emphasis or focus should shift depending on the terrain and what you are doing. At speed a smmooth circle feels highly efficient. When needing to accelerate on the flats focusing on pushing forward through the top the stroke whilst using the opposing pressure of my backside pushong against the back of the saddle works well for me. As you load the pedals more (as though you were about to get out of the saddle) pushing forward becomes less possible or efficient and the emphasis shifts to a downward movement. This is great for hills and maximising power. Pro cyclists will stay loaded up on the pedals to maximise power output but for most of us oldies this is simply too uncomfortable and demanding a stance to maintain for any length of time. I think this difference is the source of the confusion. Whatever your approach it is important to apply power through as much the arc as you can not just a small part of it.
Yes, makes sense. I did a couple more videos on this subject as I might have used a wrong description to explain the pedal movement in this one. Maybe something got lost in translation 😄
I don't recall the name, but the study people refer to was an observational study that compared pedal forces between high-level track and road cyclists with amateurs. They found that high-level cyclists did not apply force during more of the pedal stroke than amateurs but they applied a lot more force during the downstroke. To me that makes sense as the big muscles involved are quads (knee extension), glutes and hamstrings (hip extension.). It was a observational study and did not necessarily compare multiple 'pedaling styles.' But my though is that high-level cyclists who do a lot of training would naturally gravitate towards an optimal approach. IMO, a lot of newer cyclists get bogged down in this area and waste a lot of time and mental energy that could better be used elsewhere. The 'circular' pedaling discussion is one of the big 'bro science' areas of cycling. Don't over think it, just go out and ride your bike. A smooth pedelstroke is nothing more than having your muscle groups engage and relax at the right times and in the right sequences and minimizing opposing muscle engagement. By just riding you will make the coordination / neuromuscular adaptions to engage the right muscles at the right times and in the right order. I think a side benefit of weight lifting is the neuromuscular adaption with leg extensions from squats and dead lifts. Anyway, thats my 2 cents. Its been nice watching your videos. Reminds me of when I started cycling and is causing me to go back and re-examine and reassess what I learned at the time.
Great info and analysis Craig! I like what you mentioned and I am trying to compare this to what I have been experiencing. I believe that the difference in high level cyclists and amateurs might be down to the different set up on the bike (or the one they usually use): high level riders have a more forward position and it might explain the higher downstroke force, while amateurs tend to sit further back with a lower advantageous lever. More like a 100m runner start position comparing to a marathon runner. I understand that it might be pointless concentrating on the circular pedalling, but to me it is a safety net to avoid setting the saddle too high. Thanks again for your input.
@@fede1275 I don't think the study controlled for power output, so my interpretation is basically if a pro is putting out 400w vs 300w for an amateur, the force is applied through roughly the same amount of the pedal stroke, so forces have to go up. Anyway, one of the things I like about cycling is that there are so many things to learn about and derive enjoyment from. Unfortunately you are in the metaphorical dog house for helping me to convince myself to give a pair of Rapha bibs a shot. But the butt is the boss, so if they work out I might have to try more.
very well explained and much appreciated on your pedalling technique demonstration. i have not use cleat pedal but based on your explanation the circular technique makes more sense cause it seems like a more natural pedalling mechanics. thank you for this video. have a pleasant weekend!
I don't focus on my pedal stroke other than when I am going uphill. I find it ruins a good ride. Personally I think it's being overthought but we are talking about cycling, the realm of overthinking 🤣 I ALWAYS say do what feels good for you. My bigger question is what age is defined as midlife?? I am 58 😊 Thanks for another interesting video!
Very interesting, Federico. That is indeed a perplexing statement from the book. I believe we've encountered a "functional idiot". A functional idiot is a person who walks, talks, and interacts with society, almost normally. They may even write books. However they always reveal themselves by accidental idiocy so glaring that their identification cannot be confused.
I believe this might be too harsh, maybe I misinterpreted the book and the author has got a great experience. Sometimes it's really how to actually translate in words what we experience with our muscles and it's not easy
Good video. I agree that resistance training is really important and not only for cyclists. As for the saddle height it must not be too high, not only for the power loss... Your explanation is very good in relation to muscles engaged at different points. Ι had a hip flexor injury and I think it' s important to use mainly quads and hamstrings. 👍
As an amateur/enthusiast cyclist, I prefer circular movement at a higher cadence. It allows me to keep momentum and rhythm and also works better when going over small undulations on the road. Mashing the pedals to go faster works for me better only when it becomes quite steep (ca above 10%).
Yes, I understand. I also like to feel the pressure on the pedals, I guess the ideal situation would be good cadence and good effort to get the best results
Great video. I started two years ago like you, I have basically the same background as you with contact sports (karate, krav maga, american football) and athletics (long jump, high jump, 60m + ecc...Cassa Risparmio Rieti 99' 20xx) but differently from you I'm a smasher. so I was surprsed to hear that you circle. The feeling, the reflex that I need to keep my rythm going when pedaling is the same as the last 4 steps of a long or high jump. For me is the only way to keep my breathing in check.
Thanks for the feedback, really interesting especially with a similar sporting experience. I loved Krav Maga as well. I am actually trying to concentrate on the smashing phase, while not changing my saddle position. I can see the point, my worry is just that it might lead to set the saddle too high.
Thanks for the great video, Federico. I've just, in the last few days, decided to ignore the videos extolling downstrokes only, and go back to circular pedalling. There are some muscles that will need building up, but I think it will suit me better once I'm back in the habit of pedalling circles. (I'm way, way, past the midlife mark.)
I agree with you. To me it worked very well. I can understand the science in focusing on the downstroke only, but I can also see how many riders end up too high as a consequence and lose their power.
@@fede1275 I seem to be able to push harder on the downstroke if I'm pulling on the upstroke, until muscle fatigue kicks in. Sadly, that doesn't take very long. (But I'm gonna work on it.) I wonder if this is a personal thing, such that some riders really benefit from using downstroke only, whereas others gain from pedalling circles?
@@richardharris8538 It might be, not sure. For me circular is downstroke, then something I would call horizontal rather than up stroke when using the hamstrings.
@@fede1275 Yes. Actually, I find it impossible to be sure of what I'm really doing. I try to put pressure on the pedals full circle, and consciously match pushing with one foot while pulling with the other. If I had a power meter I might learn what I'm really doing.
@Federico Ciampella Thanks for the video and the book recommendation. Pedal technique is indeed an important (and often misunderstood) topic. IMO and IME, applying power to the pedal stroke prior to the 1 o'clock position (around 11 o'clock) is more efficient and generates more watts than pushing through the pedal stroke past 6 o'clock. Just my 2 cents for whatever it's worth. :-)
Hello from across the pond! I really enjoy your videos, and I’m excited for you in your cycling journey. Even though, I’ve been riding and racing for over a decade, I appreciate your thoughtfulness in how you approach all sorts of cycling topics. I always feel like I take something of value from what you have to say. Also, I ride a Canyon too :) I see you’ve gotten some good responses from other viewers on pedaling technique. I definitely second the cycling in alignment podcast. I’d like to approach your query about pedaling from a few different angles. From a high level, countless research studies show that what you call “mashing” is the most efficient way to create power. Please note that I say efficient. Efficiency and maximal force production are not one in the same. With that in mind, there are a few big reasons why pulling up on the “backstroke” is inefficient. First, as a point of clarification, we are always pedaling in circles, literally. Our feet are locked into a circular, closed loop, system. What forces you produce on one side of the crank, directly affects the opposite foot. You have no choice but to move in a circular manner. What you can emphasize is where in the circle do you want to apply mechanical force. The answer of what is best is the “down stroke” (the actual angles depend a bit on your pelvic tilt and the plane on which the bike sits). Why the downstroke? It’s because you have the most mechanical leverage based on our biomechanics. You are also pushing roughly with gravity. Why not pull up on the “backstroke/upstroke?” 1. You’re fighting gravity. 2. Our biomechanics do not produce good leverage moving that way. 3. Neuromuscular limitations…at relatively high cadence, our brains are not good at activating and deactivating major muscle groups that quickly…we begin to “misfire” our timing sequence (this makes for “negative torque”). 4. Metabolic cost…activating more muscle groups requires more energy (same with getting out of the saddle…remember maximal power vs efficient power). 5. Even if we had no neuromuscular limitations and could coordinate firing all muscles in perfect sequence, pulling up on one side of the crank, diminishes the force you can produce in the opposite phase of the pedal stroke on the other side of the crank (remember it’s a closed loop system). Excluding the topic of out of the saddle sprinting and certain climbing scenarios where your muscles have a lot of time under tension per revolution of the crank, just stick to “mashing.” Push when you have good leverage (and the help of gravity); relax when you don’t. The other leg will be doing the same thing 180 degrees the opposite. No matter what, you’ll be literally pedaling in circles. Regardless of if your bike fit is messy or dialed, this is the best way to pedal. Just for an easy test, go out and try to actively pedal just the backstroke while relaxing on the downstroke (the reverse of “mashing.” You’ll be exhausted in no time and make very little power. Then, try to truly emphasize the down stroke and the backstroke too. I guarantee you’ll find it utterly exhausting. Either way, your power will be low. You are a “masher” already you just don’t know it…your brain knows it ;) To be very fair, what makes this topic confusing is that the nomenclature surrounding it is a bit odd. It hope this helps clear things up. Cheers.
Thank you very much David for your kind comments about my videos and your detailed explanation. I do agree with you about the importance of the downstroke and I have to say that after reading various comments I focused on this part of the movement n my last rides. It is definitely the most important part of the revolution and I also agree that there is no point on focusing on the upstroke for the reasons you clearly explained. One thing it seems to me missing from these two opposites (but I might have missed it) is the importance of the lower part of the stroke, say between 5pm to 7pm: here is where I feel I can apply a lot of power with a switch from glutes and quads to hamstrings. I believe some riders when sitting too high neglect this part and might end up losing a bit of power. This to me is the link from mashing to what I describe circular and I missed at first when I set my saddle too high. When I adjusted it I could then use the full glutes and leg muscles activation for an efficient movement. I also used to run on a track, 60m or 100m and I had spiked shoes. When you land you want to propel forward and is like ripping the ground on every step. To me the lower part of the stroke is similar to that action (sweeping?) and it seems to be neglected when only considering downstroke and upstroke. I definitely need to listen to the podcast, thanks again for the recommendation!
@@fede1275 I think the book you read created confusion because of it’s attempt to create an analogy between cycling and running, which are very different from one another. The other subtly of confusion I think that book might have evoked is using the term “mashing” in the manner in which it it did. Usually, mashing is proffered as an idea in contrast to “spinning,” which really just refer to different strategies to produce force based on your gear selection and cadence, not necessarily where you produce torque within the circle of the stroke. I think you’ll find that cyclists, professional or otherwise, will often use terms that are either quite loaded in their implications and/or lack specificity. Unfortunately, this can make it harder for people who are really trying to learn and understand. Cycling is a very complicated activity. The knowledge you have already as a newer cyclist is very impressive. I would encourage that as you are thinking about these topics, such as bike fitting, pedaling techniques and muscle activation/biomechanics, that you consider them as interdependent/entrenched, but that one thing does not strictly dictate the other. For example, we know how our muscles play different roles in postural support or force production or work better concentrically or eccentrically. Based on how we believe those muscles would support cycling, we try to find bike fit positions that create ease for the desired muscles to activate. Further are the the finer skills of pedaling, balance, etc. Each affect the other but does not dictate the other wholly. I think there is a ton of value in both your awareness and actuality that you feel powerful in that 5-7pm range of the pedal stroke. However, I don’t think that positive feeling of power you have is a function of truly higher force production. I think the greatest benefit is that you clearly have your saddle set low enough that you aren’t struggling to reach the pedals, which allows you to have all kinds of great postural support, reducing the chances of injury. The folks you’ve observed who have exceedingly high saddles, are likely producing very strong power because of their more open hip angle, but their weight is becoming unsupported by the pedals at the bottom of the stroke . Consequently, their hamstrings (which are postural muscles) are going to start to lose tension around 5-7pm. So, they end up rocking side to side to reach the pedals in effort to stabile their pelvis (or overly rely on the saddle to hold them up). That rocking can hurt your back. You can have hip or knee pain too. It’s a bad scenario. So, while I think you are “powerful” in a sense at the bottom of the stroke, what’s going on more than just great production of watts is that you are well supported (avoiding injury) and are poised to be at the ready when you come back into the primary power phase of the stroke. A little tip…when you are putting in a hard effort, you should be distinctly aware that your glutes are firing. If you can’t get them to engage, try some different positions and see if that helps. I know you are savvy on weight lifting. That’s so beneficial for gluteal activation. I’m very excited for how fast I know you’ll become. You say you are riding regularly. That volume of riding is going to give you life-long aerobic benefits. Add in some high intensity when the time is right and you are going to be a force! You already look good in you kit…that probably adds watts :)
@@davidgrainger7844 Thank you again for the clear explanation, your superior knowledge translates in a detailed and yet understandable conversation. I always try to approach any sport I practice with the best technique and I want to improve my knowledge as much as I can. I also wanted to become a personal trainer, I completed the learning but could not qualify due to Covid, but then started cycling. The fit and pedalling motion really interest me, I am surprised how much helps dialling in the position for best efficiency. Yes, I agree with you, glutes as well are fired up when cycling and the best outcome of my position is that even after a hard effort the recovery is easy as all the muscles have been recruited without stressing a group more than another. I used to have the quads burning, now the whole leg is tired but then I can go again. Thanks for the tips, will keep learning!
@@fede1275 I’m so sorry your pursuit of becoming a trainer got interrupted. I hope you’ll be able to eventually do what you love. I bet you’ll be a superlative trainer. It’s great that you discovered cycling in the interim. If we weren’t on different continents, I’d invite you out to our “meet the team” ride this weekend. We’ve got a great group of masters racers. I know you’d fit in. Maybe you’ll ride with a club someday in your area. Any group would be lucky to have a thoughtful person like you.
@@fede1275 i am a track and field athlete specialized in sprint and i started cycling because i had an ankle injury. And yeah i totally understand your sensation and point on engaging the harmstring and glutes at the bottom of the stroke, it feels like when you bounce of the ground while sprinting. And when i don't feel any engagement in my harmstring or my glutes i know that a lot of my power is not used and i can't speed up my velocity as much as i can, added to that often i have at the same time too much recruitement of my quads that become exhausted really quick.
In my opinion yes, a full leg extension feels good as there is a tension release on the quads, but you lose the hamstrings to help the pedal travel from 5pm to 7pm. With full extension I feel I'm losing pressure on the pedal at the bottom.
Here is what I conceived and verified. three phase at roughly 120 degrees of arc per phase. As phase1, 2, 3 composing of one horizontal and two vertical differential strokes. (Some would insist it as circular peddling) Note : this applies to L and R paddles. ( paddle locations ) Phase1 = 10:30 to 2:30 O’clock phase2 = 2:30 to 6:00 “ Phase3 = 6:00 to 10:30 “ Explanation? L paddle Phase1 is horizontal forward feed. The purposes? 1) L paddle to minimize torque ripple when R paddle efficiency diminishing and minimum by 6:00 “ 2) L paddle enables R paddle ease pass 6:00” into phase3 for efficient up stroke. 3) as R paddle moved into 7:00, L is at 1:00 both are ready to receive maximum drive at optimal efficiency. 4) when L reached 4:30 the efficiency diminishes and R is at 10:30 ready to feed forward horizontally keeping up the torque and help L come out of the “dead” zone of low efficiency. … and the cycle repeats between L and R. That is similar to Tesla’s three phase power transmission. Try that to see your energy doubles.
Direi che ci scatta una bella toccata di maroni ;) jokes aside, thank you for introducing me to this book. I've just ordered it and I look forward to reading it too. I am 45 and currently recovering from a nasty Achille's tendinopathy (can't even walk) after a 180km ride all around Berlin, probably due to a poor bike fit and excessive saddle height so I really need to wise up and figure things out cause stopping is OUT OF THE QUESTION. I booked a professional bike fit session as well.
Ma piu' di una direi!! In my opinion cleats too far forward add a lot of strain to the calf and maybe to the Achille's I wonder if that could be an issue. Katie Kookaburra had the same injury, it might be worth checking her videos as it seems she recovered very well. In bocca al lupo!
@@fede1275 crepi! That's the first thing I will be adjusting. I realized I was basically tiptoeing all throughout my first 6 months on the bike :( . Silly newbie mistakes and all that. And thank you, I will check out her video now.
It is really a great read, lots of other info I could not cover for time reasons. Good question for food, well pasta is the winner here, you can't beat a nice "al dente" pasta! The important thing is to keep it simple and not overdo the sauce. Great with pesto, tomato, tomato and tuna, ragu' (bolognese for you), I am already hungry. Remember no cream in carbonara!!
Ciao Federico. I think, what the author is trying to say, is that you should lift the leg during the upstroke so to neutralize it's weight, otherwise you make the downstroke "heavier" for the other leg. In general the pedal should not be just pushed during the downstroke. The strongest muscle is the quadriceps and actually kicking is the strongest movement you can do to transfer power to the central movement.
I am not sure if this is what he meant. He praised Armstrong (or Froome) pedal mashing style, so clearly he prioritise the pushing downstroke above all. He clearly mentions no pulling action should be done. He does not mention any swiping motion at the bottom of the stroke, which I find very beneficial. I agree a lot with Coach Scott here ua-cam.com/video/EouzVkGvBq4/v-deo.html
I've done what I call the 3/4 stroke for years. I think that if you do some single leg riding you can better feel it. That being said when I'm really trying to push the pace or I'm struggling all I'm thinking is down, down, down and that usually gets me through. So...
Yes, I also concentrate on the downstroke when going hard, but the quads will burn out if you sit too high. To me adjusting the saddle height for the leg to work in an efficient way is the result of first balancing glutes, quads and hamstrings. Then when you ride you can concentrate on the push.
Very interesting and I think you have asked questions many cyclists ponder. I read a lot about pedalling technique and the use of the glute muscles. The research suggests if one can incorporate the powerful glute muscles in your technique it can prevent fatigue and injury in other muscle groups. I have studied this in some detail but I am still unsure whether my glutes are working as they should be while I am pedalling. The terrain (hilly or flat) often dictates how I am pedalling as it means I might be out of the saddle which can interfere with trying to maintain a smooth circular motion. Perhaps it is just the pro's who have managed to master the use of the glutes.
I agree with you, I started to be able to ride longer and less fatigued when I reached a good balance between the recruitment of the quads, hamstrings and glutes. It also helps checking how far back or forward you are, as if you are too far back when seated it might prevent the best balance imo. When I ride my Canyon comparing to the Merida I can feel it as the Canyon has got a steeper seat tube angle and I am in a more powerful forward position.
@@fede1275 Yes, sitting up over the crank enables the legs to push almost straight down, closer to walking than sitting further behind the crank. My fast tourer commuter seat tube is 73 degrees, very satisfactory for pushing with the quads but no so great for contracting out of the strokes. The race bike has 74 degree seat tube, inviting greater force on the downstroke and easier exit with the hamstrings and glutes. I can spin like mad and get lots of power, as the design intended. Sprinters are alway perched on the front of their saddles, "on the rivet!" So are riders trying to keep up! I see lots of saddle backs in all the race videos, wondering if they can ride miles sitting on the nose of the saddle! Ouch.
@@fede1275 These new short nosed saddles might be great for riders who plant their butts on the wide part of the back and never scoot forward, but the old Sella Royal Regal is nice and wide in back, has a long nose and no channel along the middle. I even bought a Selle Italia Turbo from Nashbar a few years ago on sale for 25 dollars, in case the old Turbo on the race bike gives up. Lemond, Hinault, lots of pros rode on the Turbo. Both saddles are still available. How about that? Some of these gossamer, uber-light, narrow saddles with the cutouts along the middle sure don't look like they give much support! I wouldn't know, though. Tried cutouts once and felt the edges of the channel. How do riders deal with that? "Sit on the wide pads in the back!" Forget it! If you can sit on the "rivet" split in half, kudos. I'd prefer a continuously rounded nose that I can slide around on. Please forgive me for being obnoxious, but I think cut out saddles are the result of anxieties manufactures have about causing grave perineal damage, viz. sexual impotence. That wasn't really a problem, but an MD called attention to more than one of his patients being impotent from cycling. Some concluded they were sitting on their saddles wrong. Smooth leather saddles with no pressure points seem to be going the way of quick release dropouts.
@@paulmcknight4137 I understand your points: I also felt the cut out on the Bontrager Aeolus and it was adding pressure on the side of the perineum. However I can't ride a standard saddle as my pelvis is slightly rotated forward. I found the solution with the Novus as it allows forward movement without adding cut out pressure. Some riders end up having the nose sideways when riding forward on standard saddles.
Hi Federico, there is a podcast on iTunes called Cycling in Alignment with Colby Pearce. In his last podcast on Tuesday he had Phil Cavell: The Midlife Cyclist on as his guest. He also in many episodes goes into detail and explains the pedal stroke Episode 20 How to pedal a bike with Chris Case Episode 30 How to Pedal a Bike. He has many other episodes of the mechanics of riding a bike, I think you will enjoy this. Hello from California.
I suspect that having been riding for nearing 50 years, I count as part of the target group for the book. For the last 10 years I have only used flats with no bails or clips so an upstroke would be pointless. Maybe that's what they are advocating ;-)
Let me add something to your explanation. When the left foot is pushing the pedal down, the right foot is going up but it is not exerting full power to pull up the pedal.
The biggest strongest muscles in the body are the glutes&hamstrings. If you are not using them for your primary power source in your pedal stroke then you will not optimize power output. This is the key element to cycling performance.
@@fede1275 I didn’t explain what I was trying to say that well, so please allow me to clarify. What I should have said was that the most powerful part of the pedal stroke is from 2:00-5:00 and to get the most power out you have to fully engage the glutes & hamstrings during this part of the pedal stroke. The quadriceps are smaller muscles that are primarily for stability. They should be kept rested in reserve for when needed in all out efforts, and not used as the primary workhorse. Pedaling this way doesn’t come naturally for everyone, and many riders intuitively over-rely on their quadriceps. I had a coach tell me this after ~20 years racing that way and getting pretty good at it. But he said that if I wanted to continue to race another 20 I would have to learn to do it differently. 20 years later I can say that he was right! To do this I had to develop the neuro-muscular pathways necessary to engage the larger muscles during the power phase of my pedal stroke on and off the bike. Squats, lunges, deadlift, as well as floor exercises while focusing on specifically engaging the glutes & hams.
I understand what you are saying and I should have included the glutes in the movement description where I mentioned the muscles activation in relation to the pedal position on the downstroke. If I think about it, I do engage the glutes in that phase as you mentioned. I realise that when filming I mentioned quads only to focus on the switch to the hamstrings recruitment on the lower part of the pedal transition from 5pm to 7pm. Very interesting on trying not to over rely on quads, thank you.
I lowered my saddle a little after watching your bike fit video so that my foot is closer to level at the bottommost point of the pedal stroke rather than slightly toe down. I don't know about the complicated mechanics of pedalling, but the sensation of constant pressure on the pedals throughout the circle feels more powerful to me. I recall watching a gcn video where they appeared to advise to not think at all about the concept of pulling up as part of the pedal stroke. Great video again. You deserve more subscribers.
Thank you, let me know how it works for you. I understand that the author would have proven the importance of the downstroke and he is a renowned expert, but I also see (and done it myself) when a saddle too high can make you lose power.
Frederico, I had to raise my saddle again such that it's back to where I started. My quads were starting to complain and I was getting some knee pain, something that has never bothered me before. About a week in with the saddle raised and pretty much back to 'normal'. Such is the fate of the persistent tinkerer 🙄
@@craigherriot4026 Interesting, it might be difficult to adjust after some time on the same position. For me it worked raising the saddle from.a.low position up until feeling that the pressure on the pedal was not uniform anymore and back down a little
I also found the book very interesting- but not necessarily pleasurable to read. I skipped the part about all the cycling injuries... I can understand that too much exercise can be dangerous- but I seriously doubt that most middle aged guys like us with a full time job and maybe a family are in danger to exercise too much. About my pedal stroke I have never really thought much. For the adjustment of the seat I trust my bike fitter. Another very interesting and motivating book on this topic I would recommend is "Fast after 50" by Joe Friel.
Have my cleats all the way back ➡️ watch bike fit James Also I pedal oval 😏😏😁 Also, evidence of motor neurone disease in regular strenuous exercise in those with a genetic predisposition 😳😰
I like James and I had my bike serviced at Bicycle. I also have set my cleats all the way back. It worked for me. Oval is interesting, maybe in the future. I am not sure if I want to Google your last point 😱
There is only two ways of understanding this. The first is to actually test everything. The second is called willful ignorance - it’s far more common. Let’s try testing things, we’ll start with something said in the video, “pushing down with the quads”. The quads extend the lower leg from the knee, which is roughly above the pedal at 3:00. If your quad can push down from that position, you’re not human. Feel free to test this, I’ll wait... Reverse engineering the pedal stroke isn’t rocket science. There are two pivots and four muscles in the simple model, power = force * time, so you have to look at where each muscle has mechanical advantage to generate tangential force at the pedal. The pedal is going around a circle, so it’s a non-linear system. The quads can generate force > 70% efficient from around 11:00 - 2:00, the glutes can generate force from about 1:00 - 4:00. The next cognitive bias is that hamstrings and hip flexors have a significant amount of strength. It certainly feels like you’re doing massive amounts of work by pulling up on the pedals, but what your body is telling you is tension of the muscle relative to it’s own tensile strength. Feel free to test this out too. Set up a trainer, clip in with just one foot, keep the cadence below 40 (eliminate cheating) and then tell me how much wattage you can produce for 5 minutes. I should warn you that you won’t be able to walk or even put your pants on the next day.
I understand I have over simplified the involved muscles in the process, but it was just to focus on the circular vs mashing technique discussed. I agree there is no pull up with the hip flexors, I was trying to explain what it feels for me the borrow part of the stroke from 5pm to 7pm that in the book seem not to be considered.
@@fede1275 There are about as many theories about spinning vs mashing as there are cyclists, they’re all based on perception, which is where you’re going wrong. You learned how to walk long before you learned how to pedal. The prerequisite skill for walking is lifting your body weight, which you do by using the quads to extend from the knee. This is a skill set that only works if your hip is over your foot and your femur and tibia are about the same length. It is also the most practiced skill set you own. Most people get on a bike and try to push down when the pedal is at 3:00 by firing the quads. A quick vector analysis from a fixed position will tell you that you can’t extend the lower leg from the knee and push down at 3:00 - your tibia doesn’t telescope! You’ll find that almost all theories about how to pedal are based on perception. This is what I mean by testing vs. willful ignorance... Forget everything you think you know about pedaling a bike, this is a new problem. You’re in your cycling position, for every point in the pedal circle we must figure out which muscle to use to push tangential to the crank arm. That’s really not that hard, there are only two pivots and four muscles. Each muscle creates a force vector, the resulting force vector is what moves the crank. The efficiency is COS(offset angle), in other words pushing tangential to the crank is 100% efficient, pushing 45 degrees off is 70% efficient, pushing 90 degrees off is 0% efficient. Now we get into strengths of muscles, you have two muscle groups that fight gravity all day long and two that don’t. 99% of the power produced on a bike comes from the glutes & quads. They are very different systems, the quads are a long muscle with an attachment point very close to the pivot, almost like a kick drum pedal. This design allows for leg speed, but not torque. The glutes are much wider with a much longer distance from pivot to attachment point, they produce torque but not leg speed. You first need to understand how to isolate each large muscle group before you can really understand spinning vs. mashing. Spinning is quad based, the quad pushes forward which anchors the riders hip in the saddle as a point of leverage - there is no reason for upper body movement. Mashing is glute based and leverages the upper body weight over the active pivot as a lever arm. There will be upper body movement. The limit on cadence with the glutes is gravity, somewhere in the 80 RPM range it stops working. There are lots of reasons that people don’t stop and actually learn how to pedal a bike, most of them are based on the idea that they already know how (willful ignorance). They then look at how pros pedal, which makes no sense. You’re somewhere near the center of the bell curve, pros are way, way off to one end. It’s like quitting your job and trying to inherit a fortune - it doesn’t work... I had the good fortune of losing the ability to walk in my 20’s. I regained strength in the muscles, but relearning to walk was really hard, there are lots of small balancing muscles. Instead I learned how to pedal before I learned how to walk the second time around. That’s the basis for my pedal stroke program - there was no assumption that I already knew how. I teach a pedal stroke program. In past years it’s been with small groups in-person. Last year it went virtual, and it worked better than I expected it to because people had both instruction and feedback. If you do a UA-cam search for “edsasslercoaching.com” you’ll find a few of the videos I’ve made. I stopped making the videos because I’m a student of the learning process, which has a very clear order to it. The cognitive stage always comes before the associative stage - why don’t they teach the learning process in school??? If you do look at the videos, start with the tests, and actually set up the bike and do the test. Respond here and we’ll talk about setting up an individual class to teach isolation of glutes and quads.
I made the same offer to 10 UA-cam “influencers”, to do the first part of my pedal stroke class via Zoom for free. The first part of my program deals with perception vs reality - are you doing what you think you are doing? It’s the basis for what I call testing vs willful ignorance, and all 10 stuck with willful ignorance...
i just got strava this september because i never had a smart phone before .....so all my rides will appear like recovery rides . i am getting older ..... che vergogna
“Pedalling technique” for the most part is nonsense. The movement of the leg is dictated by circular shape of front ring and cranks attached to it. You can recruit your hamstrings and inertia of movement for more efficient circular movement using less energy, but only at high enough cadence. How good you are at pedalling depends on how well conditioned your leg muscle fibres are. There is no magic in it. On top of that, the is no shortcut like training low intensity high cadence riding and becoming fast rider:), if you want ride fast you have to train hard way moving small rings in that rear cassette.
I understand, but, as I did the same mistake, I always want to highlight the issues coming from setting the saddle too high, thinking of concentrating on the downstroke. When you need to reach with the ankle movement to control the pedal at the bottom of the stroke there is definitely power lost. At the right height I agree with your assessment.
I agree with you, the saddle height should be just perfect so there are no power losses. And I also highlight the fact that beard creates disadvantageous aerodynamic situation which negates lots of power gains in bio mechanical department.
Well, I've been concluding over my 40 year love affair, originally read in Bernard Hinault/Claude Genzling "Road Racing," confirmed by Peter Konopka, a medical doctor, in "Cycle Sport," and watching the cadences of the TDF riders, looks like 90-95 rpm is the ideal cadence. It's fast enough to work the cardiovascular system, but not so fast as to rely on the fast twitch muscles, the ones that won't go the distance. Coaches are saying pedaling fast doesn't require actually putting pressure on the shoes or toe straps lifting the upstroke, but merely unweighting the pedal preparing to smoothly enter the downstroke. Lemond referred to it as "scraping mud off your boots." Have you ever sprinted and felt it in your butt muscles? They're always engaged, but more purposely above 90 rpm. Pressure is mostly taken up on the opposite side downstroke, so there's an even energy delivery that can be apportioned out by heart rate, not leg strength, that is, big quads. TDF riders use their slow twitch aerobic fibers which are long and thin, saving the fast twitch for the sprints. Trackies have glorious quads, but they burn out on a road race. The idea is to maximize the use of the aerobic muscle fibers which deliver energy from the circulatory system up to anaerobic threshold, that is, when the fast twitch fibers in the quads come into play, can almost be counted by pedal stroke, and eventually have to back off to recover. The trick is to work the heart just below anaerobic threshold. Adding to your comments on meeting so many young competitors tiptoeing on too high saddles, a few years ago I read an article by a coach. He said the first thing they did in summer camp was lower the saddles! Yes, better to start saddle too low rather than too high. Too low restricts the range of motion in the quads and probably hurts the quads and knees. Straight legged heel on pedal works great for starters. Too high destroys upstroke, as you say. The legs straighten too much to satisfactorily tighten the muscles other than the quads, that expel lactic acid and prepare for the downstrokes. At around 90 rpm, the legs no longer have enough time to fully contract into fast twitch mode, that is, fully contract pushing on the downstroke, but instead, follow the crank around. Higher, purposeful cadences deliver the energy without trashing the quads. Rider recovers quickly after a hill climb or fast twitch sprint. Notice how light these TDF riders are? They don't look like body builders, but their "strength to weight ratio" is awesome. Your legs look great moving around the circle, so you appear to have it down. Kudos! Keep spinning and your knees will be in great shape well into old age.
Thank you for the great contribution Paul! I agree of course with your analysis. It is interesting you mentioned the slow twitch muscles, I feel sometimes that we mortals do not really need to concentrate so much on these like TDF riders. I believe our rides are sometimes a collection of sprints rather than 6 hours climb, so I believe that some attention still needs to be focused on strength and fast twitch muscle fibres, that seem a bit neglected in normal cycling.
@@fede1275 A Swiss physician told his 104 year old patient to cut back on the length of his rides and do high intensity interval training, aka, sprints. The patient got stronger and rode faster! Eddy Merckx once advised, "As distance increases, speed goes down. As distance decreases, speed goes up." I don't think fast twitch are neglected in normal riding, so much as take their place as backup. Working just below anaerobic threshold, AT, there are inevitably numerous excursions into fast twitch, as you describe, "a collection of sprints." They raise the heart rate, stimulate circulation, supply more oxygen to the slow twitch. Energy delivery becomes more efficient, AT gets higher, and rider can go the distance as long as he drinks liquids and takes in carbs. Both fibers are interlaced in the same muscles and stretched and contracted on every stroke. But if rider can work just under AT, he's delivering his own maximum power over the long haul. Guys like Cavendish have well developed aerobic capacity to stay with the pack for 5 hours, and have plenty of energy to sprint to the finish with all the fast twitch they've got. Of course, guys like him can sprint for the primes and recover quick enough not to get dropped. His quads are still about half the size of some famous trackies, who's events last minutes, not hours. I was very fit from weight lifting a year or two,, the first strategy dealing with mid-life crisis, benefits similar to your superb strength conditioning from rock climbing, for sure. I too rode fast twitch intervals, trying to increase strength and get faster. I did it too much and the knees couldn't take it. Very frustrating! When I started experimenting with spinning fast in easy gears, Hinault was writing that he spun low gears to teach his legs smooth form, to "stay on top of the gear," which he said made a big difference time trialing in 52-13. Others have said the learning curve takes a few years for the muscles to learn how to rapidly fire at high cadences. Slower, more intense efforts become more like slow, deliberate spins rather than pushing exercises. Two years riding and you're analyzing the pedal strokes, to distribute the loads around the legs, what spinning is all about. Keep it up, man. It paid off for me. High intensity interval training, what is now touted as HIIT, has definitely staved off the grim reaper. I should read the book you're showing to compare notes or see what I've missed! :) So far, we're on the same page!
@@paulmcknight4137 great explanation, you put it down so well. I definitely try not to push too hard, I understand joints and ligaments get old and spinning comes handy for long term enjoyment!
Dylan Johnson did a very detailed video on pedal technique and the research agrees with the author. It's a good watch. The gist of it was, whilst focusing on pedaling circles does indeed produce a smoother torque load, gross pedaling efficiency was greater when focusing on the down stroke. As power output increases the increase comes almost exclusively from more torque on the down stroke.
I will definitely need to research more and I know what they say must have been scientifically proven. It seems to me however that focusing on the downstroke is dangerously linked to setting the saddle too high. I have made that mistake and maybe got fixated with this issue.
@@fede1275 over focusing on downstroke can lead to saddle too high and over focusing on pedaling smooth efficient circles can lead to saddle too low. Both can cause pain and power loss.
@@ShawnStradamus520 I agree, but between the two I would prefer to err on the lower side than the higher
@@ShawnStradamus520 simple solution for punters willing to spend arm and leg for blingy bike but tight arse when it comes to getting comprehensive bike fit. I understand being cynical with bike fitting and want to self bike fit themselves which takes experimentation to get it right. If you don’t want to deal with headache and potential aches and pains in the future then just get a bike fit. It’s that simple. Also if you are a crap mover off the bike then that will translate on the bike. Resistance training has been proven to help masters athletes doing endurance sports.
That was my book recommendation! Thanks for a great review and some interesting thoughts on the pedal stroke…I was a bit surprised by Phil’s view on the pedal stroke too. I think you have a good opportunity to make this channel the voice of the midlife cyclist given most of the other good cycling channels are from a younger viewpoint (with the exception of Mr Lee obvs). Grazie!
Ah!!! Thank you again Gian Paolo!!! That was a great recommendation. I am not sure if I am correct on the technique, but I like to share my experience with the videos. Yes, I try to give another perspective, I watch other youtubers and I try to add something I could not find.
I just go for downhill strava segments: middle-age problem solved 😁
I already implemented this technique, and got my only KOM 🤣🤣
Kinda funny to find this comment. In my local area there are a few elite cyclist that blast downhill and reach 50+ mph. Both handling skills and probably racing (or tt) bike setup... not that easy to get komhaha.
Hi, thanks for your videos. I truly enjoy your cycling reviews and tips. I found your reviews honest and unbiased and most importantly, very useful for the regular cyclists. I just want to make a small suggestion. I have a hard time with the audio of the video. If you could record the video with a mic, I think it would make a huge difference. Thanks and keep up the good work.
Thank you very much, I have a mic (even if is a cheap one) and I thought the room was silent enough not to use it. It did not work really well, I agree. Next time!
You are a very humble man, always nice to hear your thoughts.
Thank you 👍 👍
Hi Federico, I want to thank you for your videos, they are really informative for a midlife cyclist as I am too. I really like your balanced and calm way of talking. Being myself an Italian abroad in a northern Nation I would like to commute during fall and winter with bike, and I find your channel really interesting. Thanks, Andrea
Grazie mille, I really appreciate your support!!
A beautiful review of the book! Thanks for your introspective and in depth analysis.
Thank you! It's definitely a very interesting reading.
Just received the book for xmas, looking forward to reading it. Thanks for the insightful review.
Definitely a must have!
Yes resistance training for cyclists is extremely beneficial. The best workout for me are basic calisthenics movements like pull up, squad, dip, push up etc. Obviously you have to know your limits, especially in middle ages 🙂. Circular movements are definitely more efficient pedaling technique for myself too. Saddle too high seems to be be very common issue of many cyclists. 🚴 Save your hips😜 and stay fit and free!
I would say our limits are dictated by ageing ligaments and joints, that is why I always try to warm up properly. Muscle power seems to have not decreased so far.
@@fede1275 In fact, you'll be fit to increase your anaerobic threshold and ride stronger, without damaging the ligaments and joints, rather, strengthening them. I threw out a knee deadlifting heavy weights, made worse cycling. Then I learned how to spin and a few years later, the knee healed. Can make it up heart wrenching climbs without hurting the knees. It's mainly the gradual take up and release of slow twitch muscles conditioned by spinning.
To add to what David M is saying, Eddy Boreswicz [sp] the coach who trained Alexi Grewal to win the Olympic road race. He recommended blood boosting, now illegal, but also light weight lifting sessions during the off season, to total around 10,000 pounds, easily accomplished in an hour or so.. I did it one winter and felt a couple of years younger when back on the road. It definitely increases upper body stamina. Get up a nice spin and the bike is yours. Nothing hurts.
@@paulmcknight4137 I agree with you, but as long as the weight is challenging still. I'm not sure if you will get the same benefit from light weight without other external "enhancements"?
Really enjoying your vlogs young man. Here are my experiences. The glute complex stabilises the legs/stroke. I focus on a smooth, even circle, emanating from my glutes with a firm core. Its worked for me for 40 years. Yes. I am old. Thanks man
100% agree with you
As someone who had a TFL (hip flexor) strain while doing long distance (200-300km) rides, my issues were solved by adjusting my bike fit and also doing strength work and activations for my glutes. My fitter adjusted my saddle's angle and fore/aft position to move me over the bottom bracket with a more open hip angle and also adjusted my Q-factor. He also suggested I focus more on the downstroke and not pull up so much on the up stroke, reasoning that if I focus on the downstroke, I should get more even power distribution between L/R legs because when tired, the brain can't focus on down/up stroke between the two legs as evenly, so the dominant leg will take over causing repetitive use injuries over a long period of time. My fitter also said doing circles is fine for short bursts on flat roads if one needs to recover certain leg muscles on long rides.
Very interesting insight, thank you for sharing.
Good video. Strength training is crucial because endurance is simply the ability to hold strength for a period of time.
Thanks for the awesome review, and damn I guess my inner hip muscles are super strong because when I get tired I try to pull my feet upwards out of my shoes, or at least make it feel like it, this is crazy you mention this. Love your videos!
Thank you! For me it worked concentrating on having a constant pressure from 2pm to 7pm of the pedal stroke. I found out I was too high as at 6pm I could feel less pressure and the sole pulling away a little. So if you pull the foot upwards you lose contact and power imo
Hi Federico, thanks for you nice videos. Actually, I have a balance issue. My performance split is 60 / 40. This is why I looked into this issue in more detail some time ago. Having a Garmin Powermeter and using cycling dynamics there is quite some data available helping to get a better understanding whether there is a real power effect coming with the upstroke. From what I can see, this is not the case. Powerphases start around 10 degrees and end at roughly 200 degrees. There is no relevant positive moment of force connected to the upstroke. Actually, it's already difficult to avoid a negative torque induced by the sole weight of the leg during the upstroke. I think it's worthwhile to spend training on a smooth pedalling style optimizing the transitions at 0 and 180 degrees achieving a somehow "circular and efficient movement". But that's all you can get - from my experience at least. Power output is heavily dominated by the downstroke.
I believe you are right and I looked into this in more detail. I agree that there is no benefit on the upstroke and I have used that term in the wrong context myself. I still believe in circular pedalling and in the benefit of the 'scraping off the mud' between 5pm and 7pm. I am thinking of a new video to explain 😄
I think a good thing to do is to get a professional bike fit and have your position analysed to see if there can be any improvement on your technique.
That’s what I need to do anyway for piece of mind.
Yes, of course. For now I am still trying to understand the mechanics and learn as much as I can myself. Definitely if something starts to hurt it's best to see a professional
Hi Federico, I just discovered your YT channel and already subscribed to it. Very interesting and finely analyzed issues. This video is not the exception. I wonder if more than 50% of your channel members are over 50s +. That is great to learn from the seniors and experienced cyclists. Thanks for sharing your experiences. Ciao!
Thank you Ernesto, it's great to share experiences with experienced riders!
I'm 63 and look and feel twenty years younger than my cohorts, because I've trained on my bikes for 40 years. High intensity, long slow distance and weight training.
@@martinbrodie8507 That's really great. In my opinion the key is to add weight training. I'm not sure why there is still a stigma attached to gym training. Of course we need to be more careful and make sure form is perfect as ligaments and joints are not the same as when we were younger.
Thanks I’ll check this out
Ohhhhh, I probably need to obtain the book, too!
I think in general a circular movement makes sense as it is the smoothest method and makes one think of producing power through more of the stroke, otherwise there is little point to being clipped in. However the emphasis or focus should shift depending on the terrain and what you are doing. At speed a smmooth circle feels highly efficient. When needing to accelerate on the flats focusing on pushing forward through the top the stroke whilst using the opposing pressure of my backside pushong against the back of the saddle works well for me. As you load the pedals more (as though you were about to get out of the saddle) pushing forward becomes less possible or efficient and the emphasis shifts to a downward movement. This is great for hills and maximising power. Pro cyclists will stay loaded up on the pedals to maximise power output but for most of us oldies this is simply too uncomfortable and demanding a stance to maintain for any length of time. I think this difference is the source of the confusion. Whatever your approach it is important to apply power through as much the arc as you can not just a small part of it.
Yes, makes sense. I did a couple more videos on this subject as I might have used a wrong description to explain the pedal movement in this one. Maybe something got lost in translation 😄
I don't recall the name, but the study people refer to was an observational study that compared pedal forces between high-level track and road cyclists with amateurs. They found that high-level cyclists did not apply force during more of the pedal stroke than amateurs but they applied a lot more force during the downstroke. To me that makes sense as the big muscles involved are quads (knee extension), glutes and hamstrings (hip extension.). It was a observational study and did not necessarily compare multiple 'pedaling styles.' But my though is that high-level cyclists who do a lot of training would naturally gravitate towards an optimal approach.
IMO, a lot of newer cyclists get bogged down in this area and waste a lot of time and mental energy that could better be used elsewhere. The 'circular' pedaling discussion is one of the big 'bro science' areas of cycling. Don't over think it, just go out and ride your bike. A smooth pedelstroke is nothing more than having your muscle groups engage and relax at the right times and in the right sequences and minimizing opposing muscle engagement. By just riding you will make the coordination / neuromuscular adaptions to engage the right muscles at the right times and in the right order. I think a side benefit of weight lifting is the neuromuscular adaption with leg extensions from squats and dead lifts. Anyway, thats my 2 cents.
Its been nice watching your videos. Reminds me of when I started cycling and is causing me to go back and re-examine and reassess what I learned at the time.
Great info and analysis Craig! I like what you mentioned and I am trying to compare this to what I have been experiencing. I believe that the difference in high level cyclists and amateurs might be down to the different set up on the bike (or the one they usually use): high level riders have a more forward position and it might explain the higher downstroke force, while amateurs tend to sit further back with a lower advantageous lever. More like a 100m runner start position comparing to a marathon runner. I understand that it might be pointless concentrating on the circular pedalling, but to me it is a safety net to avoid setting the saddle too high. Thanks again for your input.
@@fede1275 I don't think the study controlled for power output, so my interpretation is basically if a pro is putting out 400w vs 300w for an amateur, the force is applied through roughly the same amount of the pedal stroke, so forces have to go up. Anyway, one of the things I like about cycling is that there are so many things to learn about and derive enjoyment from. Unfortunately you are in the metaphorical dog house for helping me to convince myself to give a pair of Rapha bibs a shot. But the butt is the boss, so if they work out I might have to try more.
very well explained and much appreciated on your pedalling technique demonstration. i have not use cleat pedal but based on your explanation the circular technique makes more sense cause it seems like a more natural pedalling mechanics. thank you for this video. have a pleasant weekend!
Thank you very much!
@@fede1275 you're welcome
I don't focus on my pedal stroke other than when I am going uphill. I find it ruins a good ride. Personally I think it's being overthought but we are talking about cycling, the realm of overthinking 🤣 I ALWAYS say do what feels good for you. My bigger question is what age is defined as midlife?? I am 58 😊 Thanks for another interesting video!
Not sure exactly when midlife is, but I surely started my midlife crisis at 30 🤣🤣
Very interesting, Federico. That is indeed a perplexing statement from the book. I believe we've encountered a "functional idiot". A functional idiot is a person who walks, talks, and interacts with society, almost normally. They may even write books. However they always reveal themselves by accidental idiocy so glaring that their identification cannot be confused.
I believe this might be too harsh, maybe I misinterpreted the book and the author has got a great experience. Sometimes it's really how to actually translate in words what we experience with our muscles and it's not easy
Loved your video!! Question, what bike stand is that? Love how small it is.
Thank you, it's a very simple but effective stand I bought from Decathlon
@@fede1275 Thank you!
Good video. I agree that resistance training is really important and not only for cyclists. As for the saddle height it must not be too high, not only for the power loss... Your explanation is very good in relation to muscles engaged at different points. Ι had a hip flexor injury and I think it' s important to use mainly quads and hamstrings. 👍
Great, thank you for sharing your experience.
"Accept"ance is the key, Frederico.
As an amateur/enthusiast cyclist, I prefer circular movement at a higher cadence. It allows me to keep momentum and rhythm and also works better when going over small undulations on the road. Mashing the pedals to go faster works for me better only when it becomes quite steep (ca above 10%).
Yes, I understand. I also like to feel the pressure on the pedals, I guess the ideal situation would be good cadence and good effort to get the best results
Great video. I started two years ago like you, I have basically the same background as you with contact sports (karate, krav maga, american football) and athletics (long jump, high jump, 60m + ecc...Cassa Risparmio Rieti 99' 20xx) but differently from you I'm a smasher. so I was surprsed to hear that you circle. The feeling, the reflex that I need to keep my rythm going when pedaling is the same as the last 4 steps of a long or high jump. For me is the only way to keep my breathing in check.
Thanks for the feedback, really interesting especially with a similar sporting experience. I loved Krav Maga as well. I am actually trying to concentrate on the smashing phase, while not changing my saddle position. I can see the point, my worry is just that it might lead to set the saddle too high.
Forgot to add that while I'm still looking for a circular movement, I don't spin my cadence, I always push with some pressure.
Thanks for the great video, Federico. I've just, in the last few days, decided to ignore the videos extolling downstrokes only, and go back to circular pedalling. There are some muscles that will need building up, but I think it will suit me better once I'm back in the habit of pedalling circles. (I'm way, way, past the midlife mark.)
I agree with you. To me it worked very well. I can understand the science in focusing on the downstroke only, but I can also see how many riders end up too high as a consequence and lose their power.
@@fede1275 I seem to be able to push harder on the downstroke if I'm pulling on the upstroke, until muscle fatigue kicks in. Sadly, that doesn't take very long. (But I'm gonna work on it.)
I wonder if this is a personal thing, such that some riders really benefit from using downstroke only, whereas others gain from pedalling circles?
@@richardharris8538 It might be, not sure. For me circular is downstroke, then something I would call horizontal rather than up stroke when using the hamstrings.
@@fede1275 Yes. Actually, I find it impossible to be sure of what I'm really doing. I try to put pressure on the pedals full circle, and consciously match pushing with one foot while pulling with the other. If I had a power meter I might learn what I'm really doing.
@Federico Ciampella Thanks for the video and the book recommendation. Pedal technique is indeed an important (and often misunderstood) topic. IMO and IME, applying power to the pedal stroke prior to the 1 o'clock position (around 11 o'clock) is more efficient and generates more watts than pushing through the pedal stroke past 6 o'clock. Just my 2 cents for whatever it's worth. :-)
Thank you, I will concentrate on how I do it to compare
Hello from across the pond! I really enjoy your videos, and I’m excited for you in your cycling journey. Even though, I’ve been riding and racing for over a decade, I appreciate your thoughtfulness in how you approach all sorts of cycling topics. I always feel like I take something of value from what you have to say. Also, I ride a Canyon too :)
I see you’ve gotten some good responses from other viewers on pedaling technique. I definitely second the cycling in alignment podcast. I’d like to approach your query about pedaling from a few different angles. From a high level, countless research studies show that what you call “mashing” is the most efficient way to create power. Please note that I say efficient. Efficiency and maximal force production are not one in the same. With that in mind, there are a few big reasons why pulling up on the “backstroke” is inefficient. First, as a point of clarification, we are always pedaling in circles, literally. Our feet are locked into a circular, closed loop, system. What forces you produce on one side of the crank, directly affects the opposite foot. You have no choice but to move in a circular manner. What you can emphasize is where in the circle do you want to apply mechanical force. The answer of what is best is the “down stroke” (the actual angles depend a bit on your pelvic tilt and the plane on which the bike sits). Why the downstroke? It’s because you have the most mechanical leverage based on our biomechanics. You are also pushing roughly with gravity. Why not pull up on the “backstroke/upstroke?” 1. You’re fighting gravity. 2. Our biomechanics do not produce good leverage moving that way. 3. Neuromuscular limitations…at relatively high cadence, our brains are not good at activating and deactivating major muscle groups that quickly…we begin to “misfire” our timing sequence (this makes for “negative torque”). 4. Metabolic cost…activating more muscle groups requires more energy (same with getting out of the saddle…remember maximal power vs efficient power). 5. Even if we had no neuromuscular limitations and could coordinate firing all muscles in perfect sequence, pulling up on one side of the crank, diminishes the force you can produce in the opposite phase of the pedal stroke on the other side of the crank (remember it’s a closed loop system).
Excluding the topic of out of the saddle sprinting and certain climbing scenarios where your muscles have a lot of time under tension per revolution of the crank, just stick to “mashing.” Push when you have good leverage (and the help of gravity); relax when you don’t. The other leg will be doing the same thing 180 degrees the opposite. No matter what, you’ll be literally pedaling in circles. Regardless of if your bike fit is messy or dialed, this is the best way to pedal. Just for an easy test, go out and try to actively pedal just the backstroke while relaxing on the downstroke (the reverse of “mashing.” You’ll be exhausted in no time and make very little power. Then, try to truly emphasize the down stroke and the backstroke too. I guarantee you’ll find it utterly exhausting. Either way, your power will be low. You are a “masher” already you just don’t know it…your brain knows it ;) To be very fair, what makes this topic confusing is that the nomenclature surrounding it is a bit odd. It hope this helps clear things up. Cheers.
Thank you very much David for your kind comments about my videos and your detailed explanation. I do agree with you about the importance of the downstroke and I have to say that after reading various comments I focused on this part of the movement n my last rides. It is definitely the most important part of the revolution and I also agree that there is no point on focusing on the upstroke for the reasons you clearly explained. One thing it seems to me missing from these two opposites (but I might have missed it) is the importance of the lower part of the stroke, say between 5pm to 7pm: here is where I feel I can apply a lot of power with a switch from glutes and quads to hamstrings. I believe some riders when sitting too high neglect this part and might end up losing a bit of power. This to me is the link from mashing to what I describe circular and I missed at first when I set my saddle too high. When I adjusted it I could then use the full glutes and leg muscles activation for an efficient movement. I also used to run on a track, 60m or 100m and I had spiked shoes. When you land you want to propel forward and is like ripping the ground on every step. To me the lower part of the stroke is similar to that action (sweeping?) and it seems to be neglected when only considering downstroke and upstroke. I definitely need to listen to the podcast, thanks again for the recommendation!
@@fede1275 I think the book you read created confusion because of it’s attempt to create an analogy between cycling and running, which are very different from one another. The other subtly of confusion I think that book might have evoked is using the term “mashing” in the manner in which it it did. Usually, mashing is proffered as an idea in contrast to “spinning,” which really just refer to different strategies to produce force based on your gear selection and cadence, not necessarily where you produce torque within the circle of the stroke. I think you’ll find that cyclists, professional or otherwise, will often use terms that are either quite loaded in their implications and/or lack specificity. Unfortunately, this can make it harder for people who are really trying to learn and understand. Cycling is a very complicated activity. The knowledge you have already as a newer cyclist is very impressive. I would encourage that as you are thinking about these topics, such as bike fitting, pedaling techniques and muscle activation/biomechanics, that you consider them as interdependent/entrenched, but that one thing does not strictly dictate the other. For example, we know how our muscles play different roles in postural support or force production or work better concentrically or eccentrically. Based on how we believe those muscles would support cycling, we try to find bike fit positions that create ease for the desired muscles to activate. Further are the the finer skills of pedaling, balance, etc. Each affect the other but does not dictate the other wholly. I think there is a ton of value in both your awareness and actuality that you feel powerful in that 5-7pm range of the pedal stroke. However, I don’t think that positive feeling of power you have is a function of truly higher force production. I think the greatest benefit is that you clearly have your saddle set low enough that you aren’t struggling to reach the pedals, which allows you to have all kinds of great postural support, reducing the chances of injury. The folks you’ve observed who have exceedingly high saddles, are likely producing very strong power because of their more open hip angle, but their weight is becoming unsupported by the pedals at the bottom of the stroke . Consequently, their hamstrings (which are postural muscles) are going to start to lose tension around 5-7pm. So, they end up rocking side to side to reach the pedals in effort to stabile their pelvis (or overly rely on the saddle to hold them up). That rocking can hurt your back. You can have hip or knee pain too. It’s a bad scenario. So, while I think you are “powerful” in a sense at the bottom of the stroke, what’s going on more than just great production of watts is that you are well supported (avoiding injury) and are poised to be at the ready when you come back into the primary power phase of the stroke. A little tip…when you are putting in a hard effort, you should be distinctly aware that your glutes are firing. If you can’t get them to engage, try some different positions and see if that helps. I know you are savvy on weight lifting. That’s so beneficial for gluteal activation. I’m very excited for how fast I know you’ll become. You say you are riding regularly. That volume of riding is going to give you life-long aerobic benefits. Add in some high intensity when the time is right and you are going to be a force! You already look good in you kit…that probably adds watts :)
@@davidgrainger7844 Thank you again for the clear explanation, your superior knowledge translates in a detailed and yet understandable conversation. I always try to approach any sport I practice with the best technique and I want to improve my knowledge as much as I can. I also wanted to become a personal trainer, I completed the learning but could not qualify due to Covid, but then started cycling. The fit and pedalling motion really interest me, I am surprised how much helps dialling in the position for best efficiency. Yes, I agree with you, glutes as well are fired up when cycling and the best outcome of my position is that even after a hard effort the recovery is easy as all the muscles have been recruited without stressing a group more than another. I used to have the quads burning, now the whole leg is tired but then I can go again. Thanks for the tips, will keep learning!
@@fede1275 I’m so sorry your pursuit of becoming a trainer got interrupted. I hope you’ll be able to eventually do what you love. I bet you’ll be a superlative trainer. It’s great that you discovered cycling in the interim. If we weren’t on different continents, I’d invite you out to our “meet the team” ride this weekend. We’ve got a great group of masters racers. I know you’d fit in. Maybe you’ll ride with a club someday in your area. Any group would be lucky to have a thoughtful person like you.
@@fede1275 i am a track and field athlete specialized in sprint and i started cycling because i had an ankle injury. And yeah i totally understand your sensation and point on engaging the harmstring and glutes at the bottom of the stroke, it feels like when you bounce of the ground while sprinting. And when i don't feel any engagement in my harmstring or my glutes i know that a lot of my power is not used and i can't speed up my velocity as much as i can, added to that often i have at the same time too much recruitement of my quads that become exhausted really quick.
Great content as usual. Just picked up the book. Quick question: which type of bike stand is that?
Thank you! It's a cheap Decathlon stand, so useful!
I quite like a full extension, but I suspect it’s wrong and loses power. Are you saying the leg should never straighten? Thanks. Very interesting.
In my opinion yes, a full leg extension feels good as there is a tension release on the quads, but you lose the hamstrings to help the pedal travel from 5pm to 7pm. With full extension I feel I'm losing pressure on the pedal at the bottom.
Here is what I conceived and verified.
three phase at roughly 120 degrees of arc per phase. As phase1, 2, 3 composing of one horizontal and two vertical differential strokes. (Some would insist it as circular peddling)
Note : this applies to L and R paddles.
( paddle locations )
Phase1 = 10:30 to 2:30 O’clock
phase2 = 2:30 to 6:00 “
Phase3 = 6:00 to 10:30 “
Explanation?
L paddle Phase1 is horizontal forward feed.
The purposes?
1) L paddle to minimize torque ripple when R paddle efficiency diminishing and minimum by 6:00 “
2) L paddle enables R paddle ease pass 6:00” into phase3 for efficient up stroke.
3) as R paddle moved into 7:00, L is at 1:00 both are ready to receive maximum drive at optimal efficiency.
4) when L reached 4:30 the efficiency diminishes and R is at 10:30 ready to feed forward horizontally keeping up the torque and help L come out of the “dead” zone of low efficiency.
… and the cycle repeats between L and R. That is similar to Tesla’s three phase power transmission.
Try that to see your energy doubles.
Interesting, I have also clarified what I wanted to say here in another video about pedal technique ua-cam.com/video/bpaw42DKvCI/v-deo.html
Direi che ci scatta una bella toccata di maroni ;)
jokes aside, thank you for introducing me to this book. I've just ordered it and I look forward to reading it too. I am 45 and currently recovering from a nasty Achille's tendinopathy (can't even walk) after a 180km ride all around Berlin, probably due to a poor bike fit and excessive saddle height so I really need to wise up and figure things out cause stopping is OUT OF THE QUESTION. I booked a professional bike fit session as well.
Ma piu' di una direi!! In my opinion cleats too far forward add a lot of strain to the calf and maybe to the Achille's I wonder if that could be an issue. Katie Kookaburra had the same injury, it might be worth checking her videos as it seems she recovered very well. In bocca al lupo!
@@fede1275 crepi! That's the first thing I will be adjusting. I realized I was basically tiptoeing all throughout my first 6 months on the bike :( . Silly newbie mistakes and all that. And thank you, I will check out her video now.
@@brokenbywhispers been there with cleats, same thing 😄
Training with heavy weights also helped me feel comfortable on the bike in an aero position.
Absolutely. Weights have to be challenging, as far as the form is maintained in my opinion.
I definitely want this book being over 40 !! thanks for the vid another good 1 random question what's your Italian meal you cook Alot?
It is really a great read, lots of other info I could not cover for time reasons. Good question for food, well pasta is the winner here, you can't beat a nice "al dente" pasta! The important thing is to keep it simple and not overdo the sauce. Great with pesto, tomato, tomato and tuna, ragu' (bolognese for you), I am already hungry. Remember no cream in carbonara!!
@@fede1275 thanks for reply! Pasta for lunch it is then 😋
Ciao Federico. I think, what the author is trying to say, is that you should lift the leg during the upstroke so to neutralize it's weight, otherwise you make the downstroke "heavier" for the other leg. In general the pedal should not be just pushed during the downstroke. The strongest muscle is the quadriceps and actually kicking is the strongest movement you can do to transfer power to the central movement.
I am not sure if this is what he meant. He praised Armstrong (or Froome) pedal mashing style, so clearly he prioritise the pushing downstroke above all. He clearly mentions no pulling action should be done. He does not mention any swiping motion at the bottom of the stroke, which I find very beneficial. I agree a lot with Coach Scott here ua-cam.com/video/EouzVkGvBq4/v-deo.html
I've done what I call the 3/4 stroke for years. I think that if you do some single leg riding you can better feel it. That being said when I'm really trying to push the pace or I'm struggling all I'm thinking is down, down, down and that usually gets me through. So...
Yes, I also concentrate on the downstroke when going hard, but the quads will burn out if you sit too high. To me adjusting the saddle height for the leg to work in an efficient way is the result of first balancing glutes, quads and hamstrings. Then when you ride you can concentrate on the push.
@@fede1275 agree, don't set your saddle height to high.
Very interesting and I think you have asked questions many cyclists ponder. I read a lot about pedalling technique and the use of the glute muscles. The research suggests if one can incorporate the powerful glute muscles in your technique it can prevent fatigue and injury in other muscle groups. I have studied this in some detail but I am still unsure whether my glutes are working as they should be while I am pedalling. The terrain (hilly or flat) often dictates how I am pedalling as it means I might be out of the saddle which can interfere with trying to maintain a smooth circular motion. Perhaps it is just the pro's who have managed to master the use of the glutes.
I agree with you, I started to be able to ride longer and less fatigued when I reached a good balance between the recruitment of the quads, hamstrings and glutes. It also helps checking how far back or forward you are, as if you are too far back when seated it might prevent the best balance imo. When I ride my Canyon comparing to the Merida I can feel it as the Canyon has got a steeper seat tube angle and I am in a more powerful forward position.
@@fede1275 Yes, sitting up over the crank enables the legs to push almost straight down, closer to walking than sitting further behind the crank. My fast tourer commuter seat tube is 73 degrees, very satisfactory for pushing with the quads but no so great for contracting out of the strokes. The race bike has 74 degree seat tube, inviting greater force on the downstroke and easier exit with the hamstrings and glutes. I can spin like mad and get lots of power, as the design intended.
Sprinters are alway perched on the front of their saddles, "on the rivet!" So are riders trying to keep up! I see lots of saddle backs in all the race videos, wondering if they can ride miles sitting on the nose of the saddle! Ouch.
@@paulmcknight4137 I know!! Another reason that made me looking for a saddle with a long channel to be able to move forward without hurting.
@@fede1275 These new short nosed saddles might be great for riders who plant their butts on the wide part of the back and never scoot forward, but the old Sella Royal Regal is nice and wide in back, has a long nose and no channel along the middle. I even bought a Selle Italia Turbo from Nashbar a few years ago on sale for 25 dollars, in case the old Turbo on the race bike gives up. Lemond, Hinault, lots of pros rode on the Turbo. Both saddles are still available. How about that?
Some of these gossamer, uber-light, narrow saddles with the cutouts along the middle sure don't look like they give much support! I wouldn't know, though. Tried cutouts once and felt the edges of the channel. How do riders deal with that? "Sit on the wide pads in the back!" Forget it! If you can sit on the "rivet" split in half, kudos. I'd prefer a continuously rounded nose that I can slide around on.
Please forgive me for being obnoxious, but I think cut out saddles are the result of anxieties manufactures have about causing grave perineal damage, viz. sexual impotence. That wasn't really a problem, but an MD called attention to more than one of his patients being impotent from cycling. Some concluded they were sitting on their saddles wrong. Smooth leather saddles with no pressure points seem to be going the way of quick release dropouts.
@@paulmcknight4137 I understand your points: I also felt the cut out on the Bontrager Aeolus and it was adding pressure on the side of the perineum. However I can't ride a standard saddle as my pelvis is slightly rotated forward. I found the solution with the Novus as it allows forward movement without adding cut out pressure. Some riders end up having the nose sideways when riding forward on standard saddles.
Hi Federico, there is a podcast on iTunes called Cycling in Alignment with Colby Pearce. In his last podcast on Tuesday he had Phil Cavell: The Midlife Cyclist on as his guest. He also in many episodes goes into detail and explains the pedal stroke Episode 20 How to pedal a bike with Chris Case Episode 30 How to Pedal a Bike. He has many other episodes of the mechanics of riding a bike, I think you will enjoy this. Hello from California.
Thank you Jack, I visited California a few times and I have so many beautiful memories! Will look into the podcast, great suggestion!
@@fede1275 your very welcome...enjoy your rides
I suspect that having been riding for nearing 50 years, I count as part of the target group for the book. For the last 10 years I have only used flats with no bails or clips so an upstroke would be pointless. Maybe that's what they are advocating
;-)
Actually there is a passage where flat pedals are recommended to prevent pulling up! You are already there! 😄
Let me add something to your explanation. When the left foot is pushing the pedal down, the right foot is going up but it is not exerting full power to pull up the pedal.
The biggest strongest muscles in the body are the glutes&hamstrings. If you are not using them for your primary power source in your pedal stroke then you will not optimize power output. This is the key element to cycling performance.
Agree, I focused on the hamstrings in the video in context with the hip flexors, but of course you are right
@@fede1275 I didn’t explain what I was trying to say that well, so please allow me to clarify. What I should have said was that the most powerful part of the pedal stroke is from 2:00-5:00 and to get the most power out you have to fully engage the glutes & hamstrings during this part of the pedal stroke.
The quadriceps are smaller muscles that are primarily for stability. They should be kept rested in reserve for when needed in all out efforts, and not used as the primary workhorse.
Pedaling this way doesn’t come naturally for everyone, and many riders intuitively over-rely on their quadriceps. I had a coach tell me this after ~20 years racing that way and getting pretty good at it. But he said that if I wanted to continue to race another 20 I would have to learn to do it differently. 20 years later I can say that he was right!
To do this I had to develop the neuro-muscular pathways necessary to engage the larger muscles during the power phase of my pedal stroke on and off the bike. Squats, lunges, deadlift, as well as floor exercises while focusing on specifically engaging the glutes & hams.
I understand what you are saying and I should have included the glutes in the movement description where I mentioned the muscles activation in relation to the pedal position on the downstroke. If I think about it, I do engage the glutes in that phase as you mentioned. I realise that when filming I mentioned quads only to focus on the switch to the hamstrings recruitment on the lower part of the pedal transition from 5pm to 7pm. Very interesting on trying not to over rely on quads, thank you.
Great video, but I use what ever pedal stroke to get my overweight and out of shape body over those 10% hills😂
Everything to overcome the hills!!
I lowered my saddle a little after watching your bike fit video so that my foot is closer to level at the bottommost point of the pedal stroke rather than slightly toe down. I don't know about the complicated mechanics of pedalling, but the sensation of constant pressure on the pedals throughout the circle feels more powerful to me. I recall watching a gcn video where they appeared to advise to not think at all about the concept of pulling up as part of the pedal stroke. Great video again. You deserve more subscribers.
Thank you, let me know how it works for you. I understand that the author would have proven the importance of the downstroke and he is a renowned expert, but I also see (and done it myself) when a saddle too high can make you lose power.
Frederico, I had to raise my saddle again such that it's back to where I started. My quads were starting to complain and I was getting some knee pain, something that has never bothered me before. About a week in with the saddle raised and pretty much back to 'normal'. Such is the fate of the persistent tinkerer 🙄
@@craigherriot4026 Interesting, it might be difficult to adjust after some time on the same position. For me it worked raising the saddle from.a.low position up until feeling that the pressure on the pedal was not uniform anymore and back down a little
👍
I also found the book very interesting- but not necessarily pleasurable to read. I skipped the part about all the cycling injuries...
I can understand that too much exercise can be dangerous- but I seriously doubt that most middle aged guys like us with a full time job and maybe a family are in danger to exercise too much.
About my pedal stroke I have never really thought much. For the adjustment of the seat I trust my bike fitter.
Another very interesting and motivating book on this topic I would recommend is "Fast after 50" by Joe Friel.
Thank you for the recommendation, I will read it next year. I don't need it yet 🤣
@@fede1275 😆
Have my cleats all the way back ➡️ watch bike fit James
Also I pedal oval 😏😏😁
Also, evidence of motor neurone disease in regular strenuous exercise in those with a genetic predisposition 😳😰
I like James and I had my bike serviced at Bicycle. I also have set my cleats all the way back. It worked for me. Oval is interesting, maybe in the future.
I am not sure if I want to Google your last point 😱
There is only two ways of understanding this. The first is to actually test everything. The second is called willful ignorance - it’s far more common. Let’s try testing things, we’ll start with something said in the video, “pushing down with the quads”. The quads extend the lower leg from the knee, which is roughly above the pedal at 3:00. If your quad can push down from that position, you’re not human. Feel free to test this, I’ll wait...
Reverse engineering the pedal stroke isn’t rocket science. There are two pivots and four muscles in the simple model, power = force * time, so you have to look at where each muscle has mechanical advantage to generate tangential force at the pedal. The pedal is going around a circle, so it’s a non-linear system. The quads can generate force > 70% efficient from around 11:00 - 2:00, the glutes can generate force from about 1:00 - 4:00. The next cognitive bias is that hamstrings and hip flexors have a significant amount of strength. It certainly feels like you’re doing massive amounts of work by pulling up on the pedals, but what your body is telling you is tension of the muscle relative to it’s own tensile strength. Feel free to test this out too. Set up a trainer, clip in with just one foot, keep the cadence below 40 (eliminate cheating) and then tell me how much wattage you can produce for 5 minutes. I should warn you that you won’t be able to walk or even put your pants on the next day.
I understand I have over simplified the involved muscles in the process, but it was just to focus on the circular vs mashing technique discussed. I agree there is no pull up with the hip flexors, I was trying to explain what it feels for me the borrow part of the stroke from 5pm to 7pm that in the book seem not to be considered.
@@fede1275 There are about as many theories about spinning vs mashing as there are cyclists, they’re all based on perception, which is where you’re going wrong. You learned how to walk long before you learned how to pedal. The prerequisite skill for walking is lifting your body weight, which you do by using the quads to extend from the knee. This is a skill set that only works if your hip is over your foot and your femur and tibia are about the same length. It is also the most practiced skill set you own. Most people get on a bike and try to push down when the pedal is at 3:00 by firing the quads. A quick vector analysis from a fixed position will tell you that you can’t extend the lower leg from the knee and push down at 3:00 - your tibia doesn’t telescope! You’ll find that almost all theories about how to pedal are based on perception. This is what I mean by testing vs. willful ignorance...
Forget everything you think you know about pedaling a bike, this is a new problem. You’re in your cycling position, for every point in the pedal circle we must figure out which muscle to use to push tangential to the crank arm. That’s really not that hard, there are only two pivots and four muscles. Each muscle creates a force vector, the resulting force vector is what moves the crank. The efficiency is COS(offset angle), in other words pushing tangential to the crank is 100% efficient, pushing 45 degrees off is 70% efficient, pushing 90 degrees off is 0% efficient. Now we get into strengths of muscles, you have two muscle groups that fight gravity all day long and two that don’t. 99% of the power produced on a bike comes from the glutes & quads. They are very different systems, the quads are a long muscle with an attachment point very close to the pivot, almost like a kick drum pedal. This design allows for leg speed, but not torque. The glutes are much wider with a much longer distance from pivot to attachment point, they produce torque but not leg speed. You first need to understand how to isolate each large muscle group before you can really understand spinning vs. mashing. Spinning is quad based, the quad pushes forward which anchors the riders hip in the saddle as a point of leverage - there is no reason for upper body movement. Mashing is glute based and leverages the upper body weight over the active pivot as a lever arm. There will be upper body movement. The limit on cadence with the glutes is gravity, somewhere in the 80 RPM range it stops working.
There are lots of reasons that people don’t stop and actually learn how to pedal a bike, most of them are based on the idea that they already know how (willful ignorance). They then look at how pros pedal, which makes no sense. You’re somewhere near the center of the bell curve, pros are way, way off to one end. It’s like quitting your job and trying to inherit a fortune - it doesn’t work... I had the good fortune of losing the ability to walk in my 20’s. I regained strength in the muscles, but relearning to walk was really hard, there are lots of small balancing muscles. Instead I learned how to pedal before I learned how to walk the second time around. That’s the basis for my pedal stroke program - there was no assumption that I already knew how.
I teach a pedal stroke program. In past years it’s been with small groups in-person. Last year it went virtual, and it worked better than I expected it to because people had both instruction and feedback. If you do a UA-cam search for “edsasslercoaching.com” you’ll find a few of the videos I’ve made. I stopped making the videos because I’m a student of the learning process, which has a very clear order to it. The cognitive stage always comes before the associative stage - why don’t they teach the learning process in school??? If you do look at the videos, start with the tests, and actually set up the bike and do the test. Respond here and we’ll talk about setting up an individual class to teach isolation of glutes and quads.
@@edsassler I will need to look into that more seriously, thank you
I made the same offer to 10 UA-cam “influencers”, to do the first part of my pedal stroke class via Zoom for free. The first part of my program deals with perception vs reality - are you doing what you think you are doing? It’s the basis for what I call testing vs willful ignorance, and all 10 stuck with willful ignorance...
i just got strava this september because i never had a smart phone before .....so all my rides will appear like recovery rides . i am getting older ..... che vergogna
Hahaha, I know the problem too well!
“Pedalling technique” for the most part is nonsense. The movement of the leg is dictated by circular shape of front ring and cranks attached to it. You can recruit your hamstrings and inertia of movement for more efficient circular movement using less energy, but only at high enough cadence. How good you are at pedalling depends on how well conditioned your leg muscle fibres are. There is no magic in it. On top of that, the is no shortcut like training low intensity high cadence riding and becoming fast rider:), if you want ride fast you have to train hard way moving small rings in that rear cassette.
I understand, but, as I did the same mistake, I always want to highlight the issues coming from setting the saddle too high, thinking of concentrating on the downstroke. When you need to reach with the ankle movement to control the pedal at the bottom of the stroke there is definitely power lost. At the right height I agree with your assessment.
I agree with you, the saddle height should be just perfect so there are no power losses. And I also highlight the fact that beard creates disadvantageous aerodynamic situation which negates lots of power gains in bio mechanical department.
@@tongotongo3143 😂
Well, I've been concluding over my 40 year love affair, originally read in Bernard Hinault/Claude Genzling "Road Racing," confirmed by Peter Konopka, a medical doctor, in "Cycle Sport," and watching the cadences of the TDF riders, looks like 90-95 rpm is the ideal cadence. It's fast enough to work the cardiovascular system, but not so fast as to rely on the fast twitch muscles, the ones that won't go the distance.
Coaches are saying pedaling fast doesn't require actually putting pressure on the shoes or toe straps lifting the upstroke, but merely unweighting the pedal preparing to smoothly enter the downstroke. Lemond referred to it as "scraping mud off your boots." Have you ever sprinted and felt it in your butt muscles? They're always engaged, but more purposely above 90 rpm. Pressure is mostly taken up on the opposite side downstroke, so there's an even energy delivery that can be apportioned out by heart rate, not leg strength, that is, big quads.
TDF riders use their slow twitch aerobic fibers which are long and thin, saving the fast twitch for the sprints. Trackies have glorious quads, but they burn out on a road race. The idea is to maximize the use of the aerobic muscle fibers which deliver energy from the circulatory system up to anaerobic threshold, that is, when the fast twitch fibers in the quads come into play, can almost be counted by pedal stroke, and eventually have to back off to recover. The trick is to work the heart just below anaerobic threshold.
Adding to your comments on meeting so many young competitors tiptoeing on too high saddles, a few years ago I read an article by a coach. He said the first thing they did in summer camp was lower the saddles! Yes, better to start saddle too low rather than too high. Too low restricts the range of motion in the quads and probably hurts the quads and knees. Straight legged heel on pedal works great for starters. Too high destroys upstroke, as you say. The legs straighten too much to satisfactorily tighten the muscles other than the quads, that expel lactic acid and prepare for the downstrokes. At around 90 rpm, the legs no longer have enough time to fully contract into fast twitch mode, that is, fully contract pushing on the downstroke, but instead, follow the crank around. Higher, purposeful cadences deliver the energy without trashing the quads. Rider recovers quickly after a hill climb or fast twitch sprint. Notice how light these TDF riders are? They don't look like body builders, but their "strength to weight ratio" is awesome.
Your legs look great moving around the circle, so you appear to have it down. Kudos! Keep spinning and your knees will be in great shape well into old age.
Thank you for the great contribution Paul! I agree of course with your analysis. It is interesting you mentioned the slow twitch muscles, I feel sometimes that we mortals do not really need to concentrate so much on these like TDF riders. I believe our rides are sometimes a collection of sprints rather than 6 hours climb, so I believe that some attention still needs to be focused on strength and fast twitch muscle fibres, that seem a bit neglected in normal cycling.
@@fede1275 A Swiss physician told his 104 year old patient to cut back on the length of his rides and do high intensity interval training, aka, sprints. The patient got stronger and rode faster! Eddy Merckx once advised, "As distance increases, speed goes down. As distance decreases, speed goes up." I don't think fast twitch are neglected in normal riding, so much as take their place as backup. Working just below anaerobic threshold, AT, there are inevitably numerous excursions into fast twitch, as you describe, "a collection of sprints." They raise the heart rate, stimulate circulation, supply more oxygen to the slow twitch. Energy delivery becomes more efficient, AT gets higher, and rider can go the distance as long as he drinks liquids and takes in carbs.
Both fibers are interlaced in the same muscles and stretched and contracted on every stroke. But if rider can work just under AT, he's delivering his own maximum power over the long haul. Guys like Cavendish have well developed aerobic capacity to stay with the pack for 5 hours, and have plenty of energy to sprint to the finish with all the fast twitch they've got. Of course, guys like him can sprint for the primes and recover quick enough not to get dropped. His quads are still about half the size of some famous trackies, who's events last minutes, not hours.
I was very fit from weight lifting a year or two,, the first strategy dealing with mid-life crisis, benefits similar to your superb strength conditioning from rock climbing, for sure. I too rode fast twitch intervals, trying to increase strength and get faster. I did it too much and the knees couldn't take it. Very frustrating! When I started experimenting with spinning fast in easy gears, Hinault was writing that he spun low gears to teach his legs smooth form, to "stay on top of the gear," which he said made a big difference time trialing in 52-13. Others have said the learning curve takes a few years for the muscles to learn how to rapidly fire at high cadences. Slower, more intense efforts become more like slow, deliberate spins rather than pushing exercises.
Two years riding and you're analyzing the pedal strokes, to distribute the loads around the legs, what spinning is all about. Keep it up, man. It paid off for me. High intensity interval training, what is now touted as HIIT, has definitely staved off the grim reaper. I should read the book you're showing to compare notes or see what I've missed! :) So far, we're on the same page!
@@paulmcknight4137 great explanation, you put it down so well. I definitely try not to push too hard, I understand joints and ligaments get old and spinning comes handy for long term enjoyment!