it seems to be correct. I always had 700c wheels with narrow tyres - 23 or 25mm - but recently got a new bike with wider tyres (28mm) and suddenly I was setting PRs on my usual routes without trying (new bike is all road, old one is race, so new bike should be "slower"!)! Road surfaces are rough, which seems to be the deciding factor: narrower tyres on Spanish-perfect roads e.g. beats wider tyres.
I am perfectly comfortable on 25c on my carbon and thinner on my old steel. I have no doubt wider is better, but i actually enjoy the feeling of speed i get from riding a skinny tire with high pressure.
@@fede1275 just the fact that you got used to something does not make it faster. It's just the only thing you know and are afraid of trying something new. Don't get me wrong I am also against marketing bullshit, hookles, road tubeless and all that shit. But wider tire does not cost more then narrow tire so not a big deal for companies here. But it is faster on longer rides, wears your body less - which in a result can help you recover faster, therefore train harder and more often. It's not just rolling resistance numbers bro, you have to look at the whole package and connect the dots.
I'm not arguing with these considerations at all. If these are your priorities, then wider tyres are perfect. I'm just prioritising performance over comfort in the sections I like to push hard with my friends. And in isolation I believe I'm faster with my lighter and more aero (same shape and less volume) wheels. I can accept to be slower on the rough patches, it's not my priority and I don't race so the overall time it's irrelevant
Ahhhhhh, another rant based in feelings, Federico is a class act and deserves respect for how he brings attention to the issues he cares about, Rim vs Disc, narrow vs Wider, Steel vs Carbon, ETC, these controversies are omnipresent in the bike communities around the world but believe me when i tell you , HE who can take all prejudice and bias out of the evaluation will be rewarded with the best performance,
Great demonstration and simple to understand - ultimately a bike fit will solve identify the best position for you and what you intend to do ion a bike. Plenty of good fitters out there
Conspiracy it may be, but a tiny bit different one I think. Changing entire ecosystem of frame clearance/rim/tyre is a good thing for a manufacturer because they don't really spend more to make it, but they can bump the prices up for "the latest and greatest" on all of those components. It doesn't mean it is eaither faster or slower though on an individual component level despite what marketologist say. Tyre size alone is all to easy to test. You may not even need to buy a second set if one of your mates has the same tyre in a different width. From my experience, I changed 25 grand sport to 28 gp5000 and got a bit faster. Is it because of width increase? I don't think so, probably just a better tyre. Half a year later my brother bought himself really cheap set of 32 gp5000 on sale for his rim brake bike and they didn't fit there but fit okay in my disc frame so we swapped the tyres. I didn't feel any difference in speed compared to 28 but the comfort level got to a different level. So my conclusion to this is if it doesn't slow me down I'd rather ride with more comfort albeit on a 50g heavier setup.
As has been said many times, biggest drag comes from the rider. As for tyre width: wider means more comfort for amateurs, and confidence for the pros during descending (as those pros reached out to 100kph) → remember Gino Mader & Remco’s early days → descending on S-bend at such speed. Btw, Remco is still using 26 cmiiw (?)
I ride in Japan where roads are 95% perfect smooth tarmac. I have ridden 25c, 28c, 30c tires, both tubeless and clincher setup. Wider tires are pushed because of disc brakes. Tubeless and wider tires feels nice because of lower pressure, BUT, low pressure tires wear out so fast. Already flattening and visible wear after 300km or so. Grip etc? I aint feeling the difference. I only feel difference with regular side wall tires are the cotton walls (corsa g2, veloflex). 25c is the fastest for me where I set all my PRs on flats and climbs without proper training.
I ran 28s on my Ultimate rim brake and preferred the feel over 25s, couldn’t detect a change in speed but noticeably better comfort and grip in corners. Maybe just put some 28s on and see how the feel of the bike changes?
On my first road bike I used 25 mm tires. Then I switched to a new bike with 50 mm deep CF rims which were perfect for 23 mm tires width wise. So I began to use 23 mm tires and I use them ever since. I notice zero difference in comfort. They might be slightly less safe because pinch flats are more likely if I hit a rock on the road or something like that. Also, I feel huge difference on gravel. With 25 mm I can ride some for fun, on 23 mm it is best to avoid. I think that if you can ride on desired tire pressure without being afraid of pinch flats you don't need a bigger tire. On reasonably good paved roads the only difference in comfort is caused by placebo effect.
The only thing you didn’t mention, is the ability to run slightly lower pressure and a voluminous tyre can conform and roll over slight inconsistencies in the road surface say 2-5 mm instead of you pushing and bumping off these inconsistencies as the tyre rolls over them. This effect is even better with higher tpi tyres. I discovered this as I was commuting back home with my 25mm tyres and I only had about 50psi of pressure. I was gliding across road seams and I was able to just smoothly pedal and focus my effort onto without having to manage bumps. I set my fastest segment record on that day which I still have to beat. I run 80/85psi now because low pressure do increase rolling resistance still. I will try a different approach with higher tpi tyres with slightly lower pressure and 28mm width Bontrager R4 tyre. I will try 80/85 psi too for reference.
Ive recently returned to cycling after about 15 years and my head is bamboozled with all that has apparently changed. My 20 year old bike has 23s. Suprised im able to move at all 😅
As it goes for me. I have wide tires on my mountain bike and I own a really nice Panasonic from the 70s with narrow tires. I just couldn't pass it by. One owner, not a single scratch on it, brakes in perfect condition, no rust whatsoever, and I paid only $75.00. How can you go wrong? And to add, the chain when I bought it looked brand new.
I have done my own testing. The 25c on front wheel and 28c on rear wheel is best solution for me on DT Swiss ARC 50 wheels. 28c on front wheel is slower and also gives me a dull riding feeling. I run Conti 5000 with plastic tubes 36 gram. I have no interest in hookless/tubelees/wide tires on my aero bike. Moving from 23c I have reduced tire pressure from 110 psi to 78 psi for most rides. It is working fine performance / comfort wise.
I agree with you. I don't buy the whole "wider is faster" or "hookless is better". It's just so that the big brands can continue to push hookless wheels. I'm a fan of disc brakes and electric shifting. But basic physics says that a narrow tire will be faster on acceleration, since it's lighter, AND faster at high speeds since it's more aero. That being said, my favorite width has to be 28mm. I find 32mm noticeably slower. 30mm are good as well, I find them fast! I wouldn't go lower than 25mm since it would be too jarring for me. Thanks for this, great video!
Frederico, I love your 'rant'. I still ride 23c tires on both disc and rim brake bikes. Yes they are possibly harder on my butt, but they feel faster to me. And I always ride them pumped to over 100 psi. Fat tires for comfort, speed or fashion? I believe it's just for fashion. And more money. The teams run what they get paid to run.
maybe I can explain why comfort = speed in this case. The discomfort of smaller tires comes from the little bumbs in the ground, if the tire is small and the pressure high this will cause the bike to move upwards instead of moving forward. On a narrower tire the bike therefore has less of its momentum move in the desired direction. And that explains the higher loss in rolling resistance. With a wider tire you stay planted on the streets and more of your energy is put into moving forward. However less vibration gives you less of a feedback for the speed that you are riding. I always feel slower on wider tires because of that, but when I look at my power and speed I see that I'm faster. I just got 32mm wide rims for my road bike, same hubs and same tires. This change alone made me 0.5 km/h faster compared to the 28mm at a power of 200W on normal road surfaces. Yet they didn't feel as fast, but I break my PRs all the times since I have them.
I am not arguing with this theory, however is strange that it took almost 100 years of cycling to discover this? Has anyone ever tried in the previous years to see if actually wider tyres were faster? Or lower pressure in case? In cycling it seems that the law of physics suddenly change whenever it suits? Same for the argument of weight vs aero, when it is now seems to go back to weight?
@@fede1275 Well I think they have tested tires in the past, but not on real roads, instead they looked how tires performed on perfect velodrome surfaces and expected this to also be the optimum for bumpier real world surfaces as well. I can't blame them, when you have something that is already optimized you don't invest more money into new research in that field. However in the pursuit of more comfort, tire manufactures were analyzing the speed penalties of wider tires and found that there were none, especially on real roads. Sometimes advancements in engineering come from coincidences.
For me, in the uk a wide tyre is a must. When going abroad though I think you can get away with narrower. I also believe it’s the same or less rolling resistance for the same skin or radial pressure (I think it’s called) of the tyre. Road surface dependant as well. I do believe from a lot of TT testing that the narrower tyre starts to come back into its own over 45-50kmh again, more aero gain than RR gain. Someone can correct me if I am wrong on this one.
I don't think UAE are deliberately slowing themselves down because of sponsorship. They have a huge budget and can afford to choose. Tadej is as enthusiastic about his bike and components as anyone else, and it shows with the 'marginal gain' equipment he has on his bike. The tyres and wheels has the largest effect on the whole bike, so I very much doubt that he is going with 30mm to deliberately slow himself down.
Yeah the only teams that are limiting their performance due to sponsors are the poor one like the one mentioned here - cofidis. To think that Tadej would roll a slower setup due to sponsors is just pure craziness. This dude is all about marginal gains and UAE can buy whole enve company with their spare cash if they want.
@@davidlau2467 I suspect hookless and tubeless have more to do with the 30mm choice. Are other pro team ridind 26mm or so doing it to deliberately go slow?
he doesnt need wheels and tires to slow himself down, his riding style arguably lost him 2 tdf's. he raced much better this past year. the difference with his set up vs, the top tens is marginal and he still wins no matter what. why should he or the team care what they ride as long as theyre winning. this is why his strategy was so heavily criticized when it cost him big race wins, and so it was addressed. if a set up change meant winning or losing it would be addressed. also staying up right and not flatting is faster which is a huge advantage to bigger tires especially coming from the tt tires he had. on cobbles they all need to go wider for speed, so intention, knowing, and reality arent always harmonious.
I have been using 28c tires and sometimes wider, on my road bikes, for 40 years or more. I had to put up with less than educated comments about my choices. Now the dogma is all about wider tires. A faster tire has never been my objective when buying non competition Oriented rubber. This is what I want from the tires I chose for the road. Sufficient air volume. Lower air pressure will always be part of higher volume. Flexible casing that will deform to the road surface for less heat and lower rolling resistance. Along with maximizing grip and service life. The last thing on the list is Tan sidewalls! All black tires remind me of the garbage bikes that people brought into the shop. Huffy, Murry, free spirit. Resulting in me refusing mechanical service. Black sidewalls remind me of thin stamped sheet metal dropouts installed by smashing and spot welding. But on my track bike? About 23c pista tires with anywhere around 160 psi to over 220 psi depending on the event. If you want to test tires for rolling resistance? Go to your local velodrome with a power meter and try different tires at several inflation pressures. Rid at the same output and see how fast you are going. In my experience. Some tires are more than a mile per hour slower or faster than the mid range of efficiency. As a bicycle mechanic and racer. I was regularly disappointed about how much mythology, lack of common sense and factual knowledge reside in the bicycle pop culture sphere. But l must admit, it did make winning bicycle races easier.
One of the engineers of Newmen (Intermarche Wanty) shared the results of their experiments regarding this topic on a German forum. Here are the key takeaways: All different tire and rim width combinations are equally fast at the same comfort level (11w +/- 0.5). This means that compromises are made by considering the following points: - A 2mm increase in tire size adds about 20g per tire. - A 2mm increase in internal rim width results in approximately a 1mm increase in effective tire width. - The wider the tire/rim, the more comfort margin is available by reducing air pressure. - The wider the tire/rim, the lower the rolling resistance at the same air pressure. - Improved cornering and braking grip due to the changed tire contact area. - Better ride characteristics in the event of a puncture with low remaining pressure. - The wider the tire or rim, the lower the operating pressure, leading to the following advantages: - Less frequent inflation due to lower operating pressure. - Sealant can better close holes due to lower operating pressure. - Reduced risk of tires coming off the rim. It is important to note that a 2mm change in internal rim width corresponds to about a 1mm change in tire width. --> Almost all of these advantages can be achieved by increasing either the internal rim width or the tire width. +2mm tire width --> +1.6w +15mm rim height --> -1.5w
You pretty much made the case for wider tires. Depending on terrain and load, tire sizes and pressures could vary widely. 25C at 90PSi, for my weight, are ideal for riding on smooth tarmac. They're fast, nimble, and relatively flat resistant, but on dirt or gravel, their contact patch just isn't wide enough. I agree with Federico. Added weight is the caveat overlooked in bigger tires. ...
@@paulmcknight4137then buy a light tire. I roll on 28cm (31 wam) Michelin power cup clincher and they weight just 230g. That's as light as most 25c tires, many are even heavier. Never felt faster and more connected to the road. It gives more confidence and less body wear which makes me even faster the longer the ride.
@@fede1275 Aero resistance is the only drawback of wider tyres besides weight. For every 2mm increase in width, you have to add 15mm of rim height to compensate for aero drag. Picking the right tyre size and pressure has always been a compromise. Do the benefits of wider tyres (grip, cornering, braking, comfort margins, sealant working better, less blowouts) outweigh aero drag and weight penalty? Personally I would say that if performance (speed) is not your primary concern then it's very hard (or impossible) to argue against wider tyres. And with frames and rims getting optimized for wider tyres (pushed by the industry) they certainly won't get slower in the future ;)
This is interesting.. a couple years back i thought putting a 28 on the rear might help me get a better ride because I could drop pressure a little without hurting my wheel. It worked.. comfort was better, and my same rides average speeds was same or slight bit better. Still running a GP4000-25 up front, I have bought a couple extras so using them up. The plan is to go 28 out front eventually but the tires dont wear as fast out front so it might be a while, and honestly I kinda like this setup. So it was very cool to see they are spec' ing bikes with the 25 /28 combo... i had NO IDEA ! It's not quite as good a match for the carbon wheelset I am running, but not too bad. Front is perfect so at least I break the wind correctly... now to get myself more aero is the next hurdle.
Riding 28c now. Recently started doing much longer rides, so I’ll be going up to 32c. The added tire volume will add some much needed comfort, also even with inner tubes you can run lower pressures. It’s not hype at all.
Something that's been eating at me is the whole debate on tire width. Personally, I'm fine with either 28c, 25c, or 23c; however, I do prefer my bike that fits a 28c for routes that have harsher roads (e.g., commuting such as to the office) and my other bikes that fit 23c for my training routes that have smoother roads (e.g., training). As for the loss because of vibration, I've heard that the wider tire is preferred, which makes sense, but (honest question due to my lack of knowledge) couldn't I just lower the pressure in a tire that is 23c or 25c and still somewhat achieve the same result for dampening the vibration from rough roads rather than resorting to a wider tire like 28c or wider?
My point is the bigger the pressure the faster tire would be on the ideal asphalt. 23c just forces you to inflate that immense pressure so it becomes faster on comparison
On my wife bike she had 25c for over 2 years. I have changed her to 28mm . She is normally very good to ride feel on bike and car. She said it is faster and most importantly she have much more confidence on tight corners in the mountains .for her it was life changing experience. She was always loosing a lot of times on mountain descents on 25c -now she goes much faster.( in her head for sure) 😂
It’s really not that complicated. You’re bouncing over your terrain rather than your tyre conforming to it. Vibration losses alone that’s a huge factor to consider. Forget the comfort factor because everyone I’ve found still runs their pressure too high regardless of going to wider tyres. You’ve used Bullets as a comparison but not a single tube or profile on your bike follows such an aerodynamic profile. The only difference in aerodynamics would come from the tyre/rim transition and the difference in bulge between different sizes. This is negligible compared to the gain from a wider tyre in fatigue, cornering, rolling resistance, comfort, durability, ability to seal when running tubeless and so much more. Wide tyres perform the same on smooth terrain. Better on rough roads. Therefore better overall. I appreciate the open discussion and your opinions towards it. But data is data. You’re more than able to run these tests yourself. Perhaps try what you’re trying to argue against before giving your opinion. It’s just hearsay otherwise.
The bullet reference is to clarify the difference in overall volume between a 23 or 25mm set up vs 32 or 35mm. Even if you have the same good tyre/rim transition, you can't deny that the more volume would inherently have more aero drag. Also to mimic the same shape on a wider tyre and rim, you would have to increase the rim size and be more susceptible to sidewinds. All to say that yes, you can have more comfort and maybe similar speed. But not that wide are faster as a blank statement
@@fede1275 you are correct but the aero benefits don't come from the tip of the tire alone, you have to look at the whole package as it was and airplane nose, have you seen pointy , sharp airplane noses? because regardless how small the frontal area is and how it breaks the air, how it stays attached to the moving object( bike and rider) matters most , wider tires paired with wider rims do have few mm larger front impact but do a better job dealing with vibrations and integration with the rest of the modern frame. There is ZERO chance an old bike, round tubes, 25mm tires on Mavic alloy wheels is as fast as as a modern frame with wider tires on deep carbon wheels. Don't just take my word for it,data supports my claim
Just like you i have 25 years of experience and own several bikes, most of them are rim brake, i don't really care how fast they are vs modern , i have them all set up with the best that era had to offer and all ride beautifully but when i want performance my go to bike is Ritte Esprit , not even close. Fast, comfortable, versatile , i go mountain climbing, fast road, gravel or TT with the bike, have the Sram AXS groupset and can adjust the shifting and the gearing specifically to the ride i am about to do With 30mm deep wheels bike weight 6.8kg, with deep aero wheels about 7.1kg i can hand with anybody , i can install TT extensions with blips and do tt all day or squeeze 34mm gravel tire and gravel anywhere as long as is not too rough I adore bikes and appreciate the classics but i'm not naive or indoctrinated by no one , nothing can touch the Ritte Esprit for what it offers
@@ciprian7yes, I can get the airplane analogy. I just believe at the same modern aero shape and transition, a 25c tyre setup should be easier to cut the air than a 32c set up, only because of the volume
@@fede1275 How the air stays attached to the moving object is more important that where the air breaks, i am not trying to convince you of anything, there is plenty data and research out there . The only place where narrow, harder tires make sense is on the track where the rolling surface and variables are perfect and controlled . You ride what gives you joy but modern aero frame, wheels, tires make for superior performance when analyzed as a whole package
I think that the state of the road itself plays a huge role. If you have a perfect tarmac, there's no doubt that a narrower tire will be faster. However, if the road has bumps and cracks, and overall, it's not ideally smooth, the wider tire will do the job. I Ride specialized SL8, and recently switched from 26mm to 30mm tires. While they feel slower, numbers show that I'm going with very much the exact same speed, even faster, BUT, I live in the part of the world where roads are total crap, so wider tires eat a lot of cracks and bumps.
Even on top tier tarmac, 25mm and 28mm are the same speed, while 23mm tyres are slightly slower. You have to be riding on a super smooth Olympic velodrome surface for 23mm to make sense, and even then some track riders are using 25mm.
Yes, but I set up my bike to have fun and ride faster on the nice sections. That's where it gets competitive. I don't set myself up to ride fast on the rough patches.
If 5mm narrower tire went 0,5 km faster in real life you wouldn’t be able to measure it. And your partly placebo partly real sense of comfort gives the illusion that you ride faster on wider tire. While in reality narrower tire is always faster. Grip and safety is a different matter though.
@@tongotongo3143 It doesn't give an illusion that I ride faster; it actually feels slower, but the numbers show that it's faster. Again, where I live, roads are crap, and you constantly hit micro bumps/cracks, etc. Narrower tire bounces more out of them, due to hire pressure and smaller point of contact, while wider tire kind of eats them, and doesn't lose so much momentum.
Narrow tire with high pressure bounces over obstacles and still keeps lots of momentum forward while wider tire with lower pressure absorbs the movement stoping the momentum forward. Yes tire with higher pressure is less comfortable on your hands. That’s why even on the nastiest Roubaix cobble road cyclists still ride on narrow tires just very recently as a compromise trying 30 -32 mm tires, still very narrow for the nastiest road in the world. For regular average quality asphalt roads 23 -25 mm are the most optimal if speed is priority.
If you look at the rolling resistance test data, you'll see each individual tire has its own fastest width. For example, the fastest version of the Schwalbe Marathon are the 37mm clinchers. I envy those with the option of running 23mm racing tires--not a viable option where I live.
Apart from aero, some of the claims are that the lower pressures on wider tyres cause less fatigue and keep the rider a little bit fresher and stronger as the ride goes on. When I switched from 25s to 28s on my Canyon Ultimate, I didn't feel quite as beaten up after a 50+ miles ride. I will add that I'm a heavy rider, usually weighing in about 100kg, so the lower pressures for me would still seem high for other people. Your Canyon will take 28s - I've run 28mm Pirelli P Zero Race and Continental P4000s on my rim brake Ultimate. Why not fit a set and experiment on 28s for a few weeks?
Fred does not understand that because he just rolled around with his mates and slow down everytime he hits bad pavement. How is that not a slower setup lol.
I am right there with you on everything’s my you’ve said and covered. Granted I’m much older per now than when I did race but t I did race on 18’s to 21’s and was a hell lot faster a lot faster then than I am now. Not to say I’m any slouch but still I’m able to pull out a 36mph slower ring now and again. My take on this issue would f aerodynamics is they’ve widened the internal spacing a few the rims, with no real standard kind you, when the standard was 16mm. Now this dimension gave us a true tire dimension that was based on this standard where as now you put a 700*25cc tire on a rim with an internal measurement of 19mm and you get a 700*28cc tire. Not w the same goes towards the aerodynamic aspect when they’re trying to match the tire girth to the outer width of the rim. We had that with the narrow rims fitted with the narrow tires, they were just pumped to a higher pressure making them have a harsher ride, oh boo-boo!
I think for the general public wider tyres are a great idea not for speed but grip and soaking up some of the bumps of our terrible roads. If i could go bigger than a 28mm I'd definitely do it.
Hmmm... I find 25-28 mm about perfect in The Bay Area, California where steep hills are the norm. Comfort, for me, can be largely mitigated by frame selection, contact points (saddle, seatpost, handlebars) and a finely honed bike fit.
i have several bikes (all with rim brakes, only the MTB with disc brakes) to make my commuting more exciting, and the one with the 28 mm tires (only one has enough clearance) feels more grippy and comfortable
My personal, recent experience using Conti TT's, the 26mm felt snapier while the 28mm felt smoother once rolling. I don't race so I'm not stressing over marginal gains so like other posters here I agree with them and go with what you like based on your use case. Just go out and ride, don't get too caught up in the science, sometimes the old days were great were you had to work with what you had and know and manage your body and ride senses, not tech or science to ruin the time experience. Riders are faster now maybe because of the tech and science but I believe that it depersonalizes the riding experience.
25mm in the front/28mm or 30mm at the back …. (if u can squeeze it in on the old rim brakes calipers) middle diddle with some extra comfort while maintaining speed and acceptable time proven aero effects
Personally it dependends on your body weight, I have a Spanish cycling friend that can get away with 25's, but he is only 55kg and 5ft 2, I am 6ft 6 and 85kg, I've tried 25's & 28's but had loads of punctures with them. I'm now on 30 on the front and 32 on the rear with no problems.
23’s on my crit bike 2014 Cervelo S5, 25’s on my spare bike 2018 Bianchi Oltre XR3 and 28 tubeless on my everyday bike 2022 Ribble Ultra SLR, looks like the newer the bikes get the wider the tires get but they are more comfortable and that helps your performance.
Back then there was no carbon rims. 19-23 wide tires were standard, because there was a very narrow aluminium rim for these - 15 mm internal was perfect. When carbon showed up - if made at that width, no wheel could stand 3 weeks of TdF racing (or others), not to mention races via cobbles. So the rims had to become wider and wider to gain any reasonable strength and safety. pulling the tire business behind, for a perfect rolling resistance. Look ~10 years back, when carbon rims were pretty much an obvious choice for each race, many riders still aluminium wheels for Paris-Roubaix, just not to end up in a terrible crash/injuries somewhere on the way.😆
Heavy rider at 100kg riding 28mm tyres 77 psi front 81 psi rear Most importantly 22.5mm internal width rims I used to ignore the type pressure calculators like sram and overinflate the tyres due to my weight But with a wider internal rim I have found 28mm or 30mm tyres are definitely faster and more comfortable due to the fact they expand to a size bigger and allow much lower pressures on rough uk roads Which makes the ride much more comfortable and gives more confidence in cornering etc
Great discussion. Totally. The move to disc brakes and wider tyres was driven by marketing departments attempting to mitigate the market-limiting concerns of middle-aged customers in the US and northern Europe who came to road bikes from MTB, namely: comfort, puncture resistance, cornering. At the same time, roads in most western countries were getting worse and tyre companies were able to utilise lighter constructions and faster compounds. This 'perfect storm' led to wider tyres that were still quick, but with minimal weight gain and a significant increase in comfort and perceived reliability. But as you say, they are not faster in all conditions, especially w/r to aero and light weight, where they are simply, objectively sower. Also, ride quality was always poorly assessed (quite deliberately, by using inappropriate pressures) by the industry shill channels like GCN. I ride everything from 45mm tubeless gravel, 32mm tubeless all-road, 25/28mm clincher road,, 23mm clincher tt and 25/28mm tubular. The tubulars offer the best ride quality on rough or smooth roads - fact. Unfortunately, the same MTB refugees and newbies could never get their heads round gluing tyres and the available profit margins on 'weird Euro' tubulars were tiny. But what were the Dutch (and most) track teams riding at the Olympics? Tubulars.Teams on road and track have been desperately buying up tubulars from bust manufactures like Dugast for years. Because they're faster. What was Remco riding at the Olympics? Tubulars. Oh, and before the move to adapted 'twin pivot' callipers (when Shimano and Campag though discs might not take off and excellent twin pivot mounts might take over), Campag and Shimano callipers could easily take a 32mm (and more) tyre, so the tyre clearance argument of GCN etc was nonsense too. Even modern callipers easily take a 28mm. As for 'Pogacar is on the fastest bike possible...' haha, what a joke. The Giant-made Colnago is neither light nor aero and the ENVE wheels are dentist-bling specials. The Look/Corima/tubular setup is tried and true, unlimited by US marketing BS and probably the best bike in a peloton who now have to ride bikes that are less aero and slower on the flat then they were 10 years ago and heavier and slower uphill than Pantani was riding! Now gravel bikes have taken over the 'comfortable road bike pretending to be a hardcore race bike' market, road race bikes might return to being actually fast (light, aero, smooth), but as the market for actual race bikes is tiny, we may see them slowly disappear..!
I can only go 26mm on my bike but it is all good since my paths are fairly good most of the time in terms of smoothness. And I still like high pressure around 98psi. My other track bike could do 28mm which seems like the ideal size in my type of turf.
For what it's worth, I have found a wider rim, 25mm internal with 28mm tyres seems to be the fastest setup over 100k on road but I use 32mm tyres because the speed difference is minimal and gives increased comfort. Could just be a placebo effect? Are the 28s more aero over a longer distance? Consistency of the data? The ride environment permutations are endless, probably? What it means in the real world, who knows as my weight and fitness fluctuate wildly? *Statistics 101* the same data can tell a different story depending on how it's presented. What about the difference in weight between older (right back when thinner tyres became the norm) tyre sizes compared to the difference in weight between the sizes now?
Yes, interesting. For now I do prefer a lighter setup with 25c on the Canyon and 21mm internal rim width. Funny 25c was considered a wider option not that long ago
Here in Switzerland, Im running "low pressure" 28's and 30's (vittorias and GP5000s). In combination with aero rims, these are the fastest tyres/wheels Ive ever ridden - the comfort is simply a bonus. And Im riding on smooth tarmac. An additional bonus - I havent punctured in 4 years since going tubless, and no - to the commentator from Japan - they dont wear out faster. Perhaps you need to mention the "105%" rule, and how much research proves that vibration loses are greater than aero gains on narrower tyres. Its been known since the 60's, afterall...
105 rules definitely is needed for aero, but what would be faster between 25, 28, 30, 32 and so on when all are at the same ratio? If comfort is maintained the same, I believe narrower is faster. Or at least not slower.
@@fede1275 Change the word "comfort" to "vibration losses", and you'll get your answer. Typically the vibration loses of thinner tyres is greater than the aero advantages.
I totally agree with Mr Ciampella,I've been riding longer than most of these guys on GCN,and the rest of the choir,I used to ride 25's,now I'm using 28's,and I think it's the Best combination of speed and comfort,and I honestly believe its all selling points .So I say don't believe the Hype.,just ride what you can afford.😎
20-23 mm rims and 28 mm tyres seems to be standard on most road bikes today, so might 23 mm tyres be discontinued in a few years? The road surface has worsened the last years where I ride, and I swapped ro 28 mm tyres when the old ones wae worn out this year. I am wery happy with this, and have no issues. Even with a + 20 year old bike and rims. The aerodynamic has of course increased with 28 mm on my old and narrow rims. But it is more comfortable, and my 2002 Colnago is faster than ever. When or if I want 😀
when it comes to UAE's choice I always have the scene in mind which you show at 11:30, Pogacar clearly crashed there because of the hookless Enve rims - and, as you said, with these rims they could only solve the problem by using wider tires with lower pressure. On top of that, the tarmac in France is extremely rough, so it's the area where narrower tires and higher pressure don't show their qualities anyways. I use 25mm or 25 front and 28 back most of the time and I think that is the maximum making sense where I live. ...btw, for Alpine tours I still like to use my Bora's with tubulars because of the superior safety - though they are slower than modern clinchers with latex tubes (what I believe is the case not because tubulars are always slower but because clinchers and tubeless are developed further and further, while the tubulars, Conti Competition Pro Ltd or Podium TT in my case, are still the same as 20 years ago)
Love the channel keep up the good work! Wider tyres were introduced to increase the contact patch required for the bite of disc brakes (also far more crashes in pro cycling), manufacturer's increased wheel width also to support the tyre to rim transition (for aerodynamics - see reserve wheels as an example). However, for rim brakes with a 19mm internal wheel (25mm tyres) are perfect! for anything above this, i.e. 21mm > 24mm internal rim width (28mm tyres) are best. If you want the best blend for speed and comfort, the compromise which I have found to be the fastest for rim brake bikes is: 21mm internal rims paired with a 28mm tyre on the rear and a 25mm on the front (lightweight too). My tyre of choice: GP 5000 TT TR - check out rolling resistance, less watts to achieve higher speeds = fast! #rim4roaddisc4dirt
25mm tyres on both my Canyon ultimate cf slx rim & Specialized sl5 s-w rim. 7 bar front , 7.8 bar rear. Works perfect (for me 80kg) . 32mm only on my Canyon commuter bike :).
I have found a work around here by having a lot of bikes with a lot of tire and wheel combinations. I would like to find a rim brake road wheel that is at least semi aero and 20-21mm wide internally but havent’ found that yet. I am still not interested in any tire for road that is larger than 30mm. For my old tubular wheels I could put 28’s on them but I’m sure the profile would not be great and the tire width would measure more like 26
I think its good to be sceptical when the premium for a certain product is outsized to the difference in manufacturing inputs. We routinely (in Aus anyhow) fork out +30% for 30/32c tyres. Just because an athlete has an elite FTP does not mean they can design an experiment to optimize a multi variable system! The cumulative measurement errors alone would far exceed the reported margins of benefit.
I ride 23/25 the main reason I ride 23 at front is I like to look of a thin tyre on the front. I think wide tyres on front dull the responsiveness of the bike.
i used to ride 21 mm at 120 psi on my tt bike for some decent pr sub 1 hr 40km but it was painful to ride essentially on rocks probably can go faster as some of the roads were too bumpy and i had leave tt position. I can get the same result on 28s at 70psi and have a much smoother ride.
@@fede1275you're kind of missing the point a little. Wider is mostly faster but it's almost never slower. That was the point of the GCN video you quoted, even on the best surfaces a wider tyre does not cost you any time.
@@kpizzle1985 but then why there would be no aero loss on a wider tyre combo? Why few mm count so much on the frame and not on the tyre/wheel profile? A 23 or 25mm tyre on a 27mm wide aero wheel has to be faster than a 32c tyre on a 32mm wide wheel. It's just physics
@@fede1275 you make a frame as narrow as you can because being aero is it's main purpose. Comparing this to tyres is a false equivalence. Whilst making a tyre a few mm wider does incur a miniscule aero penalty (have a look at the Parcours white paper), that penalty is vastly overcome by the significantly improved rolling resistance. This is why TT riders use 28mm tyres, I know Remco uses 26 but he only weighs 60kg.
@@kpizzle1985 but RR is similar if we adjust the pressure to compensate for different width? Even bicycle rolling resistance say to go narrow if the comfort level is okay? Then Canyon must be crazy when they offered 23c and now 25c front tyres on the Aeroad. They could have done a simple test if it's so easy to measure. I believe there is no such a clear right or wrong argument. I am prepared to accept all the wide tyres benefits, but not at the expense of other traditional setups.
Intriguing video; I totally understand why you would be skeptical about the bike industry's push for aero, except when it comes to wheels. (I think aero factors can be safely ignored by almost all of us; unless you're doing a time trial, aero probably doesn't matter very much.) I agree that a lot of the marketing of wider tires has to do with the attempt to get people to accept hookless rims, which I don't think will be successful, because hookless rims on bicycles is an insane idea. And I agree that GCN videos cannot be trusted; the number of times they have arrived at a conclusion they didn't expect or like and then just dismissed the results is almost comical. (e.g., pedals, wheels, aero bikes, Lycra, tire width...) Personally, though, I do like wider tires; they are more comfortable, they are safer on the absolutely appalling paved roads of the United States, they allow me to make detours on unpaved roads once in a while, and, crucially, I believe they are much less prone to getting punctures. There's a lot of research out there at this point that suggests that running lower air pressures is actually faster, because of the effects of road imperfections on tires at higher pressures; and running lower pressures with narrower tires isn't a very good idea because of the low volume. I use clincher 32mm tires at 80-85 psi, with TPU tubes, on my own bike, and this works for me because I care a bit more about endurance than speed, but I think the sweet spot for most road bikes is probably 28mm. 28mm gives you all the benefits of wider tires, but beyond this width they start getting too heavy, without any additional benefit in comfort or rolling resistance.
This is a perfectly understandable analysis and I can only agree with it. My issues are mainly with the current language that it seems to be used in the industry: if wider tyres have some advantages, it does not mean other set up have become instantly slower. If disc brakes are now the preferred choice, it does not mean rim brakes are dangerous. It seems they can't prop up the new tech without discrediting the previous set ups.
i find "width as measured" to be the most important metric these days. for example, 23, 25 and 28c GP4000 tires measure completely differently to 23, 25 and 28c GP5000 tires. the GP5000's all measuring much more narrow than the equivalent size GP4000. either way, my preference for balance between speed and comfort is to have a tire that measures between 29-30mm.
Bullets traveling faster through air most likely has much more to do with momentum staying the same meaning there’s the potential for higher velocity, as opposed to reduced drag (or maybe both)
I tried 28, 30 and 32. I ended up liking 30 the best. They were the fastest. (Pirelli PZero Race). I do run slightly wider wheels, 30 mm external diameter. It will depend a little bit on how good the roads are that you ride on. There is a lot of chipseal and cracked pavement where I live. The other thing is that with those tires I feel like I can ride all day. 32 mm felt kind of bouncy to me. Last time I rode 26 mm they felt really awful. One other thing to keep in mind, there is feel and there is real. Thinner tires feel faster even when they aren't because more of the high frequency road vibrations reach your hands. Wider tires are superior in cornering and especially in wet conditions. Just try it and see.
IMHO, 28 mm is sweet spot, golden mean, i have use 25, 28 and now 30 mm. By narrow tire, like 23/25 mm, you must pump to higher pressure, and then you are slower on rough tarmac, not much, but noticeably.
28C is the current preference for speed, you tried 26 and 30, on either end of optimal, and got about the same result. seems about right. If you are going about the same speed, wider gets you better handling, comfort, and puncture protection.
Jan Heine proofed that wider means faster up to 25 mm. And from there up to 54 mm it's not clear trend on smooth roads. Jan recently rode a FKT on 54 mm - accidentally because his fast bike with narrow 42 mm tyres was in the workshop. Those big wheels didn't hold him back, did they?
Once the industry makes as much money as they can off fat tires, a new study will come along enabling them to make a lot of money off thin tires again.
Why? Its not like tyres dont get replaced a lot, and they wont increase market share - people will just replace old tyres, not add extra tyres to their bike. It wont increase sales or market size in any way.
28mm - 32mm is my sweet spot at the moment. More 28mm these days since removing myself from the British cobblestones. I don’t do hookless rims. I’ve got back to tubes.
I agree, cobbles in P-R wider tires, gravel the same, otherwise 25mm on crappy UK roads. Track riders use 19mm at 180 psi, they'd be 5 hours off the pace on 30-32mm at 80 psi. Baby smooth roads 23mm may be too large but they don't exist.
The argument for them being faster is that even the road you are riding on in this video isn't perfectly smooth. The test that Bicycle Rolling Resistance performs is on a perfectly smooth steel drum. Once you take it out to the road even a smoother roads have microbumps that have some effect and end up benefitting wider tires at lower pressures. How low and how wide seems to depend on how bumpy the surface is though. If I remember correctly it is due to higher psi tires bouncing off those bumps in the road. Small losses in speed occur when that happens. Switching from 23's to 26's and at a lower psi I noticed a difference in speed on my normal roads. Not massive but slightly faster and more comfortable is great.
I can understand the smoothness over the road imperfections, but it seems that aero differences in different volumes are not taken in consideration, while minimal frame alterations are hailed like speed revolutions
@@fede1275that's a false equivalence, they do not contradict each other. An aero frames purpose is to be aero and it will not suffer from being narrower. A tyres sole purpose is to role efficiently, increasing the width improves its rolling resistance far more than it suffers aerodynamicly. Have a read of the white paper published by Parcours on aerodynamics, it's on the Chrono wheels page.
I think it comes down to the difference between "feeling fast" and "being fast". Just as with aero - you can't feel it or see, but you can measure it. Harder tires, lighter weight feels faster, but the only way to tell if you actually are faster, is to look at the numbers. A good example for this is switching from basic alloy wheels to deep carbon wheels. Of course you feel the stiffness, but you can only tell that you're faster after checking your times on strava...
yes, but why no one ever tried lower pressures and wider tyres before? Could not a random cyclist have tried this in the 1950s and win over those old school guys on 19mm at 120psi?
@@fede1275 You need to take a look at bikes from the late 1800s. The tires were wide. It would help if you also considered the advances in road surfaces the increasing popularity of road cycling in the 70s - 90s with skinny high-pressure setups many fell in love with and the deterioration of those surfaces today. It's no wonder why a wider tire would be better on an older surface, yet difficult to comprehend because "I've always done it this way...". I've seen this same way of thinking firsthand in the tile and hard surfaces industry with new tech and many ruined installations.
@@fede1275 could a random cyclist really have tried this? All bike frames at the time were limiting tire width. Rim brakes, rims, everything that was available was set up for 19mm tubs. So you'd have to probably build your own wheels, frame and tires to be able to test this and also most importantly be willing to do so.
My guess is because 0 yaw aero gains are exaggerated while wider tyres and rim combo seems to perform better under real life environment. (More gains in >0 yaw)
@@fede1275 I'm also on the course of understanding this, it's to the point I've purchased some wide LB rim to test in person. Perhaps I'll update you when my wheels come.
@fede1275 Not necessarily, Dylan Johnson wind tunnel tested for Unbound and found that 2.2 inch Conti Race Kings were virtually the same as some narrower gravel tires. As Josh Portner always says about aero guesses, "It depends." In other words, nothing about aero can be "calculated" without wind tunnel testing.
@fede1275 seriously? We're talking about aero drag differences that are truly marginal gains. The real scientists who do wind tunnel testing know that conventional wisdom isn't useful.
Did wider tires become faster before or after weight doesn't matter aero bike set ups? I put a 28mm tire that measured 29.3mm inflated on a rim that measured 28.3mm wide. I couldn't sleep thinking about the aero loss. So I changed to a 25mm on the front (measures 26mm). Still waiting for the speed gain. Cycling News has some interesting articles on wheel aero benefits or lack off is more accurate. Bicycle rolling resistance has data comparing different size of same tire (GP5000) and how adjusted for pressure there isn't much difference. The best I can tell is your pumping out 300 watts trying to maintain 22-24 mph and these tire/wheel modifications are worth five watts if you can dial everything in. Good luck.
@@jonve1368 it seems that the ratio between the rim and the tyre is the most important aero factor, so rhe rim should be wider than the rim. Then in my opinion with the same ratio we can discuss what's faster or not
@@fede1275 agree narrow will beat wide in aero according to physics. Wind tunnel testing confirms this and can be shown with CFD. The only reason a wider tire on a wider rim can be made faster is to offset the aero losses with rolling resistance or traction or comfort related gains. Fast, smooth, dry roads like I ride don't require wide tires so 25/28 is the best combination.
I’m in your camp yes more comfortable but I don’t think faster I’m still riding a Rim brake Cervelo S5 and I’m not convinced there is anything to gain going for a newer bike . I’m on the edge of French Alps and go up and down mountains no issues I do training rides with pros and they are on wider tyres discs and I still manage except I’m little tired after because I’m an old guy like you 😂 anyway good content I like what you do
I don’t think it’s a conspiracy Federico, I’ve got a rim brake frame with 25s and disc with 28s and the 28s are faster everywhere BUT the 25s always feel faster for some reason. I’ve done my own test which was as controlled as I could make it and this again showed a considerable win for the wider tyres. When I started road cycling in 2017 I was on 25s and I think as the industry started to transition towards 28s and tubeless the pros were still using 25mm tubulars, now I would say the situation is the opposite, most cyclists are on 28mm tyres and the pros are moving towards wider for example Tadej Pogacar ran 30mm at the TDF and even 32mm on at least one stage. On a personal level I’ll take the fact that the increased comfort is worth it, the roads around Leicestershire aren’t the worst in the UK but they never get any better, I’m running my 28s at 58/68psi and have a set of 30mm to fit when these wear out.
I read a study sometime in the past that people relate increased vibration and some lost of stability as being 'fast', while smooth is 'slow'. This applies to cars, but the same can be said for bikes. So if you are on narrow tyres at higher pressure, the ride can be more jittery hence feels fast.
@@davidlau2467 however how come in all those years it seems no one found a better solution to narrow tyres and high pressures? And we are talking about racers that did literally everything to win and have an advantage on others
From about 1988 rode 23mm continental grand prix. Then around 1992 they were discontinued and something called "grand prix 4 season" replaced them. We're not as good but better puncture resistance I would say. Still cotton sidewalls. Roll forward to 2024 "grand prix 4 season " now have solid rubber sidewalls and very uncomfortable. Bring back cotton sidewalls.
The last 2 hour records have been set on 25mm tyres that measured 27.5mm, 25,mm tyres were used because they tested to be the fastest. If 25mm tyres are the fastest on a velodrome then they cannot be the fastest on the road.
Disagree. One of the disadvantages of thick tires is less favorable thickness-to-chord ratio. That is less of an issue if rim is very deep or if it is even a disc. On the velodrome thicker tire probably affects the whole system less.
@@jkk916 I'm not sure what or who you're disagreeing with. The team tested different tyres widths to see what was the fastest, 25s on the velodrome were the fastest.
@@jkk916 ok, so you think to go faster on the track you use wider tyres than you do on the road? Interesting. You're disagreeing with every professional cyclist that's existed in the last ~10 years 😅
Its actually really, really simple. The vibration loses from wider tyres is less than the aero gains from narrower tyres. And those vibration loses start on surfaces you would consider "smooth". The only way to minimise vibration loses is on the glass-smooth velodrome. On the road, vibration loses are greater than aero gains.
I am not sure it is that simple. Maybe it depends on the road surface. I also wonder if it is that simple why the finest minds did not find this out before and we could have had wider road tyres for much longer? We all slow down in rough patches, but I want to be fast when roads are good and everyone is pushing.
Personally in my experience on pretty good roads anyways, I ran several two size tires on SWORKS SL6, 26mm and 28mm Conti TT tires. While the 28's were more comfy, the 25mm were faster, after doing my 28mm test, when I put on the 26mm's I immediately could tell the defference, the 26mm's were faster to me and a better proformer, maybe different on rough roads but on good roads no contest, the 26mm were faster.
Pressure will make a big difference a wide tyre 25 or 28 mm with a high pressure will be faster on most rods than a thin 23 mm because it will have more or less the same amount on road surface but will absorb ruff surface more or flex easier every time a 23 mm hits a bump and jumps your speed is transferred up wards and not forward but the flex of 25 or 28 mm does not do that so much they still move forward.
it seems to be correct. I always had 700c wheels with narrow tyres - 23 or 25mm - but recently got a new bike with wider tyres (28mm) and suddenly I was setting PRs on my usual routes without trying (new bike is all road, old one is race, so new bike should be "slower"!)! Road surfaces are rough, which seems to be the deciding factor: narrower tyres on Spanish-perfect roads e.g. beats wider tyres.
I agree that it all depends on the condition of the roads where you ride.
For me I value speed and lightness on the smooth, I don't want to get the drawbacks of a set up for the rough roads
Spanish roads Spanish weather ❤☀️☀️☀️🙏
Intelligent comments not seen on some channels.
can't compare an old bike with a brand new one, literally invalid if it's not the same bike/model of the same year etc
I am perfectly comfortable on 25c on my carbon and thinner on my old steel. I have no doubt wider is better, but i actually enjoy the feeling of speed i get from riding a skinny tire with high pressure.
For me, comfort means less fatigue, which is nicer. Faster? Slower? Couldn't care less😊
Nothing wrong with that. I just don't understand how my setup is now considered slower
More comfort = faster
@@kubackjeee I'm 51 and I don't mind 150Km on 23c, I'll go wider when I will feel discomfort
@@fede1275 just the fact that you got used to something does not make it faster. It's just the only thing you know and are afraid of trying something new. Don't get me wrong I am also against marketing bullshit, hookles, road tubeless and all that shit. But wider tire does not cost more then narrow tire so not a big deal for companies here. But it is faster on longer rides, wears your body less - which in a result can help you recover faster, therefore train harder and more often. It's not just rolling resistance numbers bro, you have to look at the whole package and connect the dots.
I'm not arguing with these considerations at all. If these are your priorities, then wider tyres are perfect. I'm just prioritising performance over comfort in the sections I like to push hard with my friends. And in isolation I believe I'm faster with my lighter and more aero (same shape and less volume) wheels. I can accept to be slower on the rough patches, it's not my priority and I don't race so the overall time it's irrelevant
Ahhhhhh, another rant based in feelings, Federico is a class act and deserves respect for how he brings attention to the issues he cares about, Rim vs Disc, narrow vs Wider, Steel vs Carbon, ETC, these controversies are omnipresent in the bike communities around the world but believe me when i tell you , HE who can take all prejudice and bias out of the evaluation will be rewarded with the best performance,
Great demonstration and simple to understand - ultimately a bike fit will solve identify the best position for you and what you intend to do ion a bike. Plenty of good fitters out there
I agree with your considerations. I ride with Fulcrum Racing Zero Nite and 25 tyres and I think it's a good compromise for comfort speed and weight.
Just ride the tyres you're confident and comfortable with I'd say. Unless you are racing the gains or losses are too marginal
Conspiracy it may be, but a tiny bit different one I think. Changing entire ecosystem of frame clearance/rim/tyre is a good thing for a manufacturer because they don't really spend more to make it, but they can bump the prices up for "the latest and greatest" on all of those components. It doesn't mean it is eaither faster or slower though on an individual component level despite what marketologist say.
Tyre size alone is all to easy to test. You may not even need to buy a second set if one of your mates has the same tyre in a different width.
From my experience, I changed 25 grand sport to 28 gp5000 and got a bit faster. Is it because of width increase? I don't think so, probably just a better tyre. Half a year later my brother bought himself really cheap set of 32 gp5000 on sale for his rim brake bike and they didn't fit there but fit okay in my disc frame so we swapped the tyres. I didn't feel any difference in speed compared to 28 but the comfort level got to a different level. So my conclusion to this is if it doesn't slow me down I'd rather ride with more comfort albeit on a 50g heavier setup.
As has been said many times, biggest drag comes from the rider. As for tyre width: wider means more comfort for amateurs, and confidence for the pros during descending (as those pros reached out to 100kph) → remember Gino Mader & Remco’s early days → descending on S-bend at such speed.
Btw, Remco is still using 26 cmiiw (?)
I ride in Japan where roads are 95% perfect smooth tarmac. I have ridden 25c, 28c, 30c tires, both tubeless and clincher setup. Wider tires are pushed because of disc brakes. Tubeless and wider tires feels nice because of lower pressure, BUT, low pressure tires wear out so fast. Already flattening and visible wear after 300km or so. Grip etc? I aint feeling the difference. I only feel difference with regular side wall tires are the cotton walls (corsa g2, veloflex). 25c is the fastest for me where I set all my PRs on flats and climbs without proper training.
Don't ride Vitoria tyres, they don't last long independently of the width.
But they are very grippy and fast.
@@tongotongo3143 true.
@@laurenceraygatchalian6108 You got the point!
They need wider tyres because of disc brakes.For me 25 C tyres are the fastest
aren't the wider tubeless tires also easier to install. i imagine you still need to use steel levers.
I ran 28s on my Ultimate rim brake and preferred the feel over 25s, couldn’t detect a change in speed but noticeably better comfort and grip in corners. Maybe just put some 28s on and see how the feel of the bike changes?
@@randomname8442 maybe it's true I'm a Luddite 😂
He is to fixed in his thinking to do that
Just buy a single 28 for the rear and play around. Ignore the speed, but the comfort and grip should be noticeable
On my first road bike I used 25 mm tires. Then I switched to a new bike with 50 mm deep CF rims which were perfect for 23 mm tires width wise. So I began to use 23 mm tires and I use them ever since. I notice zero difference in comfort. They might be slightly less safe because pinch flats are more likely if I hit a rock on the road or something like that. Also, I feel huge difference on gravel. With 25 mm I can ride some for fun, on 23 mm it is best to avoid.
I think that if you can ride on desired tire pressure without being afraid of pinch flats you don't need a bigger tire. On reasonably good paved roads the only difference in comfort is caused by placebo effect.
The only thing you didn’t mention, is the ability to run slightly lower pressure and a voluminous tyre can conform and roll over slight inconsistencies in the road surface say 2-5 mm instead of you pushing and bumping off these inconsistencies as the tyre rolls over them.
This effect is even better with higher tpi tyres.
I discovered this as I was commuting back home with my 25mm tyres and I only had about 50psi of pressure. I was gliding across road seams and I was able to just smoothly pedal and focus my effort onto without having to manage bumps. I set my fastest segment record on that day which I still have to beat.
I run 80/85psi now because low pressure do increase rolling resistance still.
I will try a different approach with higher tpi tyres with slightly lower pressure and 28mm width Bontrager R4 tyre. I will try 80/85 psi too for reference.
@@Dmxravin now you need to keep riding low pressure to see if the faster times are consistent 😀
Ive recently returned to cycling after about 15 years and my head is bamboozled with all that has apparently changed. My 20 year old bike has 23s. Suprised im able to move at all 😅
As it goes for me. I have wide tires on my mountain bike and I own a really nice Panasonic from the 70s with narrow tires. I just couldn't pass it by. One owner, not a single scratch on it, brakes in perfect condition, no rust whatsoever, and I paid only $75.00. How can you go wrong? And to add, the chain when I bought it looked brand new.
Still ride my 25mm or 23mm tyres at 110psi I'm happy sod what the market thinks great content as usual Fredrico.
👍👍
YEP! especially on a smooth tarmac, they are very snippy. 28mm are very slow in aceleration but slaggy on maniobrality.
I have done my own testing. The 25c on front wheel and 28c on rear wheel is best solution for me on DT Swiss ARC 50 wheels. 28c on front wheel is slower and also gives me a dull riding feeling. I run Conti 5000 with plastic tubes 36 gram. I have no interest in hookless/tubelees/wide tires on my aero bike. Moving from 23c I have reduced tire pressure from 110 psi to 78 psi for most rides. It is working fine performance / comfort wise.
@@jrnlundsgaard5896 seems a great set up
I agree with you. I don't buy the whole "wider is faster" or "hookless is better". It's just so that the big brands can continue to push hookless wheels. I'm a fan of disc brakes and electric shifting.
But basic physics says that a narrow tire will be faster on acceleration, since it's lighter, AND faster at high speeds since it's more aero.
That being said, my favorite width has to be 28mm. I find 32mm noticeably slower. 30mm are good as well, I find them fast! I wouldn't go lower than 25mm since it would be too jarring for me.
Thanks for this, great video!
Make perfect sense!
Frederico, I love your 'rant'. I still ride 23c tires on both disc and rim brake bikes. Yes they are possibly harder on my butt, but they feel faster to me. And I always ride them pumped to over 100 psi. Fat tires for comfort, speed or fashion? I believe it's just for fashion. And more money. The teams run what they get paid to run.
I'm perfectly happy with my 23s and occasionally 25s, thank you😊
Federico, I still use 19mm tubulars!
maybe I can explain why comfort = speed in this case. The discomfort of smaller tires comes from the little bumbs in the ground, if the tire is small and the pressure high this will cause the bike to move upwards instead of moving forward. On a narrower tire the bike therefore has less of its momentum move in the desired direction. And that explains the higher loss in rolling resistance. With a wider tire you stay planted on the streets and more of your energy is put into moving forward. However less vibration gives you less of a feedback for the speed that you are riding. I always feel slower on wider tires because of that, but when I look at my power and speed I see that I'm faster. I just got 32mm wide rims for my road bike, same hubs and same tires. This change alone made me 0.5 km/h faster compared to the 28mm at a power of 200W on normal road surfaces. Yet they didn't feel as fast, but I break my PRs all the times since I have them.
I am not arguing with this theory, however is strange that it took almost 100 years of cycling to discover this? Has anyone ever tried in the previous years to see if actually wider tyres were faster? Or lower pressure in case? In cycling it seems that the law of physics suddenly change whenever it suits? Same for the argument of weight vs aero, when it is now seems to go back to weight?
@@fede1275 Well I think they have tested tires in the past, but not on real roads, instead they looked how tires performed on perfect velodrome surfaces and expected this to also be the optimum for bumpier real world surfaces as well. I can't blame them, when you have something that is already optimized you don't invest more money into new research in that field. However in the pursuit of more comfort, tire manufactures were analyzing the speed penalties of wider tires and found that there were none, especially on real roads. Sometimes advancements in engineering come from coincidences.
For me, in the uk a wide tyre is a must. When going abroad though I think you can get away with narrower.
I also believe it’s the same or less rolling resistance for the same skin or radial pressure (I think it’s called) of the tyre.
Road surface dependant as well.
I do believe from a lot of TT testing that the narrower tyre starts to come back into its own over 45-50kmh again, more aero gain than RR gain.
Someone can correct me if I am wrong on this one.
I see, makes sense
I don't think UAE are deliberately slowing themselves down because of sponsorship. They have a huge budget and can afford to choose. Tadej is as enthusiastic about his bike and components as anyone else, and it shows with the 'marginal gain' equipment he has on his bike. The tyres and wheels has the largest effect on the whole bike, so I very much doubt that he is going with 30mm to deliberately slow himself down.
Yeah the only teams that are limiting their performance due to sponsors are the poor one like the one mentioned here - cofidis. To think that Tadej would roll a slower setup due to sponsors is just pure craziness. This dude is all about marginal gains and UAE can buy whole enve company with their spare cash if they want.
@@davidlau2467 so Ineos were limiting themselves when they still used rim brakes?
@@fede1275 I didn't say rim brakes were slow. That's an entirely beast of a topic itself. I was referring specifically to Tadej's choice to use 30mm.
@@davidlau2467 I suspect hookless and tubeless have more to do with the 30mm choice. Are other pro team ridind 26mm or so doing it to deliberately go slow?
he doesnt need wheels and tires to slow himself down, his riding style arguably lost him 2 tdf's. he raced much better this past year. the difference with his set up vs, the top tens is marginal and he still wins no matter what. why should he or the team care what they ride as long as theyre winning. this is why his strategy was so heavily criticized when it cost him big race wins, and so it was addressed. if a set up change meant winning or losing it would be addressed. also staying up right and not flatting is faster which is a huge advantage to bigger tires especially coming from the tt tires he had. on cobbles they all need to go wider for speed, so intention, knowing, and reality arent always harmonious.
I love your perspectives. Tailwinds to all-yall
I have been using 28c tires and sometimes wider, on my road bikes, for 40 years or more.
I had to put up with less than educated comments about my choices.
Now the dogma is all about wider tires.
A faster tire has never been my objective when buying non competition
Oriented rubber.
This is what I want from the tires I chose for the road.
Sufficient air volume.
Lower air pressure will always be part of higher volume.
Flexible casing that will deform to the road surface for less heat and lower rolling resistance.
Along with maximizing grip and service life.
The last thing on the list is
Tan sidewalls!
All black tires remind me of the garbage bikes that people brought into the shop.
Huffy, Murry, free spirit.
Resulting in me refusing mechanical service.
Black sidewalls remind me of thin stamped sheet metal dropouts installed by smashing and
spot welding.
But on my track bike?
About 23c pista tires with anywhere around 160 psi to over 220 psi depending on the event.
If you want to test tires for rolling resistance?
Go to your local velodrome with a power meter and try different tires at several inflation pressures.
Rid at the same output and see how fast you are going.
In my experience.
Some tires are more than a mile per hour slower or faster than the mid range of efficiency.
As a bicycle mechanic and racer.
I was regularly disappointed about how much mythology, lack of common sense and factual knowledge reside in the bicycle pop culture sphere.
But l must admit, it did make winning bicycle races easier.
Love your rim brakes!
One of the engineers of Newmen (Intermarche Wanty) shared the results of their experiments regarding this topic on a German forum.
Here are the key takeaways:
All different tire and rim width combinations are equally fast at the same comfort level (11w +/- 0.5). This means that compromises are made by considering the following points:
- A 2mm increase in tire size adds about 20g per tire.
- A 2mm increase in internal rim width results in approximately a 1mm increase in effective tire width.
- The wider the tire/rim, the more comfort margin is available by reducing air pressure.
- The wider the tire/rim, the lower the rolling resistance at the same air pressure.
- Improved cornering and braking grip due to the changed tire contact area.
- Better ride characteristics in the event of a puncture with low remaining pressure.
- The wider the tire or rim, the lower the operating pressure, leading to the following advantages:
- Less frequent inflation due to lower operating pressure.
- Sealant can better close holes due to lower operating pressure.
- Reduced risk of tires coming off the rim.
It is important to note that a 2mm change in internal rim width corresponds to about a 1mm change in tire width.
--> Almost all of these advantages can be achieved by increasing either the internal rim width or the tire width.
+2mm tire width --> +1.6w
+15mm rim height --> -1.5w
Where would you include aero resistance? Why is so important for the frame and seems to be excluded from the tyres?
You pretty much made the case for wider tires. Depending on terrain and load, tire sizes and pressures could vary widely. 25C at 90PSi, for my weight, are ideal for riding on smooth tarmac. They're fast, nimble, and relatively flat resistant, but on dirt or gravel, their contact patch just isn't wide enough. I agree with Federico. Added weight is the caveat overlooked in bigger tires.
...
@@paulmcknight4137then buy a light tire. I roll on 28cm (31 wam) Michelin power cup clincher and they weight just 230g. That's as light as most 25c tires, many are even heavier. Never felt faster and more connected to the road. It gives more confidence and less body wear which makes me even faster the longer the ride.
@@fede1275 Aero resistance is the only drawback of wider tyres besides weight. For every 2mm increase in width, you have to add 15mm of rim height to compensate for aero drag. Picking the right tyre size and pressure has always been a compromise.
Do the benefits of wider tyres (grip, cornering, braking, comfort margins, sealant working better, less blowouts) outweigh aero drag and weight penalty?
Personally I would say that if performance (speed) is not your primary concern then it's very hard (or impossible) to argue against wider tyres.
And with frames and rims getting optimized for wider tyres (pushed by the industry) they certainly won't get slower in the future ;)
@@leg_snapper no issues with that. I am just as fast with my old set up though, not slower 😀
This is interesting.. a couple years back i thought putting a 28 on the rear might help me get a better ride because I could drop pressure a little without hurting my wheel. It worked.. comfort was better, and my same rides average speeds was same or slight bit better. Still running a GP4000-25 up front, I have bought a couple extras so using them up. The plan is to go 28 out front eventually but the tires dont wear as fast out front so it might be a while, and honestly I kinda like this setup. So it was very cool to see they are spec' ing bikes with the 25 /28 combo... i had NO IDEA ! It's not quite as good a match for the carbon wheelset I am running, but not too bad. Front is perfect so at least I break the wind correctly... now to get myself more aero is the next hurdle.
I like being able to take my road bike on dirt paths to avoid traffic in certain areas - this is made extremely easy on wider/lower pressure tires.
Riding 28c now. Recently started doing much longer rides, so I’ll be going up to 32c. The added tire volume will add some much needed comfort, also even with inner tubes you can run lower pressures. It’s not hype at all.
@@crypto_que I'm all good with increased comfort 👍
Something that's been eating at me is the whole debate on tire width. Personally, I'm fine with either 28c, 25c, or 23c; however, I do prefer my bike that fits a 28c for routes that have harsher roads (e.g., commuting such as to the office) and my other bikes that fit 23c for my training routes that have smoother roads (e.g., training). As for the loss because of vibration, I've heard that the wider tire is preferred, which makes sense, but (honest question due to my lack of knowledge) couldn't I just lower the pressure in a tire that is 23c or 25c and still somewhat achieve the same result for dampening the vibration from rough roads rather than resorting to a wider tire like 28c or wider?
Some say that lower pressures on skinny tyres could lead to more punctures, hence they prefer wider ones.
My point is the bigger the pressure the faster tire would be on the ideal asphalt. 23c just forces you to inflate that immense pressure so it becomes faster on comparison
On my wife bike she had 25c for over 2 years. I have changed her to 28mm . She is normally very good to ride feel on bike and car. She said it is faster and most importantly she have much more confidence on tight corners in the mountains .for her it was life changing experience. She was always loosing a lot of times on mountain descents on 25c -now she goes much faster.( in her head for sure) 😂
@@rowerazzzzzeee everything to make the wife happy!
@fede1275 all she knew was the tyres was new.but she felt difference imidietly
It’s really not that complicated. You’re bouncing over your terrain rather than your tyre conforming to it. Vibration losses alone that’s a huge factor to consider.
Forget the comfort factor because everyone I’ve found still runs their pressure too high regardless of going to wider tyres.
You’ve used Bullets as a comparison but not a single tube or profile on your bike follows such an aerodynamic profile. The only difference in aerodynamics would come from the tyre/rim transition and the difference in bulge between different sizes. This is negligible compared to the gain from a wider tyre in fatigue, cornering, rolling resistance, comfort, durability, ability to seal when running tubeless and so much more.
Wide tyres perform the same on smooth terrain. Better on rough roads. Therefore better overall.
I appreciate the open discussion and your opinions towards it. But data is data. You’re more than able to run these tests yourself.
Perhaps try what you’re trying to argue against before giving your opinion. It’s just hearsay otherwise.
The bullet reference is to clarify the difference in overall volume between a 23 or 25mm set up vs 32 or 35mm. Even if you have the same good tyre/rim transition, you can't deny that the more volume would inherently have more aero drag. Also to mimic the same shape on a wider tyre and rim, you would have to increase the rim size and be more susceptible to sidewinds. All to say that yes, you can have more comfort and maybe similar speed. But not that wide are faster as a blank statement
@@fede1275 you are correct but the aero benefits don't come from the tip of the tire alone, you have to look at the whole package as it was and airplane nose, have you seen pointy , sharp airplane noses? because regardless how small the frontal area is and how it breaks the air, how it stays attached to the moving object( bike and rider) matters most , wider tires paired with wider rims do have few mm larger front impact but do a better job dealing with vibrations and integration with the rest of the modern frame. There is ZERO chance an old bike, round tubes, 25mm tires on Mavic alloy wheels is as fast as as a modern frame with wider tires on deep carbon wheels. Don't just take my word for it,data supports my claim
Just like you i have 25 years of experience and own several bikes, most of them are rim brake, i don't really care how fast they are vs modern , i have them all set up with the best that era had to offer and all ride beautifully but when i want performance my go to bike is Ritte Esprit , not even close. Fast, comfortable, versatile , i go mountain climbing, fast road, gravel or TT with the bike, have the Sram AXS groupset and can adjust the shifting and the gearing specifically to the ride i am about to do With 30mm deep wheels bike weight 6.8kg, with deep aero wheels about 7.1kg i can hand with anybody , i can install TT extensions with blips and do tt all day or squeeze 34mm gravel tire and gravel anywhere as long as is not too rough I adore bikes and appreciate the classics but i'm not naive or indoctrinated by no one , nothing can touch the Ritte Esprit for what it offers
@@ciprian7yes, I can get the airplane analogy. I just believe at the same modern aero shape and transition, a 25c tyre setup should be easier to cut the air than a 32c set up, only because of the volume
@@fede1275 How the air stays attached to the moving object is more important that where the air breaks, i am not trying to convince you of anything, there is plenty data and research out there . The only place where narrow, harder tires make sense is on the track where the rolling surface and variables are perfect and controlled . You ride what gives you joy but modern aero frame, wheels, tires make for superior performance when analyzed as a whole package
I think that the state of the road itself plays a huge role. If you have a perfect tarmac, there's no doubt that a narrower tire will be faster. However, if the road has bumps and cracks, and overall, it's not ideally smooth, the wider tire will do the job. I Ride specialized SL8, and recently switched from 26mm to 30mm tires. While they feel slower, numbers show that I'm going with very much the exact same speed, even faster, BUT, I live in the part of the world where roads are total crap, so wider tires eat a lot of cracks and bumps.
Even on top tier tarmac, 25mm and 28mm are the same speed, while 23mm tyres are slightly slower. You have to be riding on a super smooth Olympic velodrome surface for 23mm to make sense, and even then some track riders are using 25mm.
Yes, but I set up my bike to have fun and ride faster on the nice sections. That's where it gets competitive. I don't set myself up to ride fast on the rough patches.
If 5mm narrower tire went 0,5 km faster in real life you wouldn’t be able to measure it. And your partly placebo partly real sense of comfort gives the illusion that you ride faster on wider tire. While in reality narrower tire is always faster. Grip and safety is a different matter though.
@@tongotongo3143 It doesn't give an illusion that I ride faster; it actually feels slower, but the numbers show that it's faster. Again, where I live, roads are crap, and you constantly hit micro bumps/cracks, etc. Narrower tire bounces more out of them, due to hire pressure and smaller point of contact, while wider tire kind of eats them, and doesn't lose so much momentum.
Narrow tire with high pressure bounces over obstacles and still keeps lots of momentum forward while wider tire with lower pressure absorbs the movement stoping the momentum forward. Yes tire with higher pressure is less comfortable on your hands. That’s why even on the nastiest Roubaix cobble road cyclists still ride on narrow tires just very recently as a compromise trying 30 -32 mm tires, still very narrow for the nastiest road in the world. For regular average quality asphalt roads 23 -25 mm are the most optimal if speed is priority.
If you look at the rolling resistance test data, you'll see each individual tire has its own fastest width. For example, the fastest version of the Schwalbe Marathon are the 37mm clinchers. I envy those with the option of running 23mm racing tires--not a viable option where I live.
Apart from aero, some of the claims are that the lower pressures on wider tyres cause less fatigue and keep the rider a little bit fresher and stronger as the ride goes on.
When I switched from 25s to 28s on my Canyon Ultimate, I didn't feel quite as beaten up after a 50+ miles ride.
I will add that I'm a heavy rider, usually weighing in about 100kg, so the lower pressures for me would still seem high for other people.
Your Canyon will take 28s - I've run 28mm Pirelli P Zero Race and Continental P4000s on my rim brake Ultimate. Why not fit a set and experiment on 28s for a few weeks?
Fred does not understand that because he just rolled around with his mates and slow down everytime he hits bad pavement. How is that not a slower setup lol.
I am right there with you on everything’s my you’ve said and covered.
Granted I’m much older per now than when I did race but t I did race on 18’s to 21’s and was a hell lot faster a lot faster then than I am now. Not to say I’m any slouch but still I’m able to pull out a 36mph slower ring now and again.
My take on this issue would f aerodynamics is they’ve widened the internal spacing a few the rims, with no real standard kind you, when the standard was 16mm. Now this dimension gave us a true tire dimension that was based on this standard where as now you put a 700*25cc tire on a rim with an internal measurement of 19mm and you get a 700*28cc tire. Not w the same goes towards the aerodynamic aspect when they’re trying to match the tire girth to the outer width of the rim. We had that with the narrow rims fitted with the narrow tires, they were just pumped to a higher pressure making them have a harsher ride, oh boo-boo!
I think for the general public wider tyres are a great idea not for speed but grip and soaking up some of the bumps of our terrible roads. If i could go bigger than a 28mm I'd definitely do it.
👍👍
Nice video to discuss the best tyres for type of riding one prefers.😊
Hmmm... I find 25-28 mm about perfect in The Bay Area, California where steep hills are the norm. Comfort, for me, can be largely mitigated by frame selection, contact points (saddle, seatpost, handlebars) and a finely honed bike fit.
Good point
i have several bikes (all with rim brakes, only the MTB with disc brakes) to make my commuting more exciting, and the one with the 28 mm tires (only one has enough clearance) feels more grippy and comfortable
My personal, recent experience using Conti TT's, the 26mm felt snapier while the 28mm felt smoother once rolling. I don't race so I'm not stressing over marginal gains so like other posters here I agree with them and go with what you like based on your use case. Just go out and ride, don't get too caught up in the science, sometimes the old days were great were you had to work with what you had and know and manage your body and ride senses, not tech or science to ruin the time experience. Riders are faster now maybe because of the tech and science but I believe that it depersonalizes the riding experience.
25mm in the front/28mm or 30mm at the back …. (if u can squeeze it in on the old rim brakes calipers) middle diddle with some extra comfort while maintaining speed and acceptable time proven aero effects
Personally it dependends on your body weight, I have a Spanish cycling friend that can get away with 25's, but he is only 55kg and 5ft 2, I am 6ft 6 and 85kg, I've tried 25's & 28's but had loads of punctures with them. I'm now on 30 on the front and 32 on the rear with no problems.
I am around 87Kg...
Very strange experience. My experience is different.
23’s on my crit bike 2014 Cervelo S5, 25’s on my spare bike 2018 Bianchi Oltre XR3 and 28 tubeless on my everyday bike 2022 Ribble Ultra SLR, looks like the newer the bikes get the wider the tires get but they are more comfortable and that helps your performance.
Back then there was no carbon rims. 19-23 wide tires were standard, because there was a very narrow aluminium rim for these - 15 mm internal was perfect.
When carbon showed up - if made at that width, no wheel could stand 3 weeks of TdF racing (or others), not to mention races via cobbles. So the rims had to become wider and wider to gain any reasonable strength and safety. pulling the tire business behind, for a perfect rolling resistance. Look ~10 years back, when carbon rims were pretty much an obvious choice for each race, many riders still aluminium wheels for Paris-Roubaix, just not to end up in a terrible crash/injuries somewhere on the way.😆
Great video! I can't fit wide tires on my rim brake Allez Sprint but I don't care. Happy with 25mm.
Heavy rider at 100kg riding 28mm tyres 77 psi front 81 psi rear
Most importantly 22.5mm internal width rims I used to ignore the type pressure calculators like sram and overinflate the tyres due to my weight
But with a wider internal rim I have found 28mm or 30mm tyres are definitely faster and more comfortable due to the fact they expand to a size bigger and allow much lower pressures on rough uk roads
Which makes the ride much more comfortable and gives more confidence in cornering etc
Great discussion. Totally. The move to disc brakes and wider tyres was driven by marketing departments attempting to mitigate the market-limiting concerns of middle-aged customers in the US and northern Europe who came to road bikes from MTB, namely: comfort, puncture resistance, cornering. At the same time, roads in most western countries were getting worse and tyre companies were able to utilise lighter constructions and faster compounds. This 'perfect storm' led to wider tyres that were still quick, but with minimal weight gain and a significant increase in comfort and perceived reliability.
But as you say, they are not faster in all conditions, especially w/r to aero and light weight, where they are simply, objectively sower. Also, ride quality was always poorly assessed (quite deliberately, by using inappropriate pressures) by the industry shill channels like GCN. I ride everything from 45mm tubeless gravel, 32mm tubeless all-road, 25/28mm clincher road,, 23mm clincher tt and 25/28mm tubular. The tubulars offer the best ride quality on rough or smooth roads - fact. Unfortunately, the same MTB refugees and newbies could never get their heads round gluing tyres and the available profit margins on 'weird Euro' tubulars were tiny.
But what were the Dutch (and most) track teams riding at the Olympics? Tubulars.Teams on road and track have been desperately buying up tubulars from bust manufactures like Dugast for years. Because they're faster. What was Remco riding at the Olympics? Tubulars. Oh, and before the move to adapted 'twin pivot' callipers (when Shimano and Campag though discs might not take off and excellent twin pivot mounts might take over), Campag and Shimano callipers could easily take a 32mm (and more) tyre, so the tyre clearance argument of GCN etc was nonsense too. Even modern callipers easily take a 28mm.
As for 'Pogacar is on the fastest bike possible...' haha, what a joke. The Giant-made Colnago is neither light nor aero and the ENVE wheels are dentist-bling specials. The Look/Corima/tubular setup is tried and true, unlimited by US marketing BS and probably the best bike in a peloton who now have to ride bikes that are less aero and slower on the flat then they were 10 years ago and heavier and slower uphill than Pantani was riding!
Now gravel bikes have taken over the 'comfortable road bike pretending to be a hardcore race bike' market, road race bikes might return to being actually fast (light, aero, smooth), but as the market for actual race bikes is tiny, we may see them slowly disappear..!
@@jameshoward9700 excellent summary!! Agree of course 😄
I can only go 26mm on my bike but it is all good since my paths are fairly good most of the time in terms of smoothness. And I still like high pressure around 98psi. My other track bike could do 28mm which seems like the ideal size in my type of turf.
For what it's worth, I have found a wider rim, 25mm internal with 28mm tyres seems to be the fastest setup over 100k on road but I use 32mm tyres because the speed difference is minimal and gives increased comfort. Could just be a placebo effect? Are the 28s more aero over a longer distance? Consistency of the data? The ride environment permutations are endless, probably?
What it means in the real world, who knows as my weight and fitness fluctuate wildly?
*Statistics 101* the same data can tell a different story depending on how it's presented.
What about the difference in weight between older (right back when thinner tyres became the norm) tyre sizes compared to the difference in weight between the sizes now?
Yes, interesting. For now I do prefer a lighter setup with 25c on the Canyon and 21mm internal rim width. Funny 25c was considered a wider option not that long ago
Keep up the good work Federico, really nice video :-)
Thanks a lot!
Here in Switzerland, Im running "low pressure" 28's and 30's (vittorias and GP5000s). In combination with aero rims, these are the fastest tyres/wheels Ive ever ridden - the comfort is simply a bonus. And Im riding on smooth tarmac. An additional bonus - I havent punctured in 4 years since going tubless, and no - to the commentator from Japan - they dont wear out faster.
Perhaps you need to mention the "105%" rule, and how much research proves that vibration loses are greater than aero gains on narrower tyres. Its been known since the 60's, afterall...
105 rules definitely is needed for aero, but what would be faster between 25, 28, 30, 32 and so on when all are at the same ratio? If comfort is maintained the same, I believe narrower is faster. Or at least not slower.
@@fede1275 Change the word "comfort" to "vibration losses", and you'll get your answer. Typically the vibration loses of thinner tyres is greater than the aero advantages.
30mm's running tubeless at 50-55psi for me, doing a 200k tomorrow - comfy & fast,
I totally agree with Mr Ciampella,I've been riding longer than most of these guys on GCN,and the rest of the choir,I used to ride 25's,now I'm using 28's,and I think it's the Best combination of speed and comfort,and I honestly believe its all selling points .So I say don't believe the Hype.,just ride what you can afford.😎
👍👍
28 mm is perfect
20-23 mm rims and 28 mm tyres seems to be standard on most road bikes today, so might 23 mm tyres be discontinued in a few years? The road surface has worsened the last years where I ride, and I swapped ro 28 mm tyres when the old ones wae worn out this year. I am wery happy with this, and have no issues. Even with a + 20 year old bike and rims. The aerodynamic has of course increased with 28 mm on my old and narrow rims. But it is more comfortable, and my 2002 Colnago is faster than ever. When or if I want 😀
when it comes to UAE's choice I always have the scene in mind which you show at 11:30, Pogacar clearly crashed there because of the hookless Enve rims - and, as you said, with these rims they could only solve the problem by using wider tires with lower pressure. On top of that, the tarmac in France is extremely rough, so it's the area where narrower tires and higher pressure don't show their qualities anyways.
I use 25mm or 25 front and 28 back most of the time and I think that is the maximum making sense where I live. ...btw, for Alpine tours I still like to use my Bora's with tubulars because of the superior safety - though they are slower than modern clinchers with latex tubes (what I believe is the case not because tubulars are always slower but because clinchers and tubeless are developed further and further, while the tubulars, Conti Competition Pro Ltd or Podium TT in my case, are still the same as 20 years ago)
Good points
Love my 25s and 23s simple as that.
Love the channel keep up the good work! Wider tyres were introduced to increase the contact patch required for the bite of disc brakes (also far more crashes in pro cycling), manufacturer's increased wheel width also to support the tyre to rim transition (for aerodynamics - see reserve wheels as an example). However, for rim brakes with a 19mm internal wheel (25mm tyres) are perfect! for anything above this, i.e. 21mm > 24mm internal rim width (28mm tyres) are best. If you want the best blend for speed and comfort, the compromise which I have found to be the fastest for rim brake bikes is: 21mm internal rims paired with a 28mm tyre on the rear and a 25mm on the front (lightweight too). My tyre of choice: GP 5000 TT TR - check out rolling resistance, less watts to achieve higher speeds = fast! #rim4roaddisc4dirt
@@chillipepper83 absolutely, agree 100%. Did not want to focus on rim vs discs, but you are right.
23C rocks my world, as always, for this old N. Italiano in SW FL, USA :-)
This has to be one of the best channels on youtube!
@@1rickqwert I agree 😀😂
25mm tyres on both my Canyon ultimate cf slx rim & Specialized sl5 s-w rim. 7 bar front , 7.8 bar rear. Works perfect (for me 80kg) . 32mm only on my Canyon commuter bike :).
Right on
I have found a work around here by having a lot of bikes with a lot of tire and wheel combinations. I would like to find a rim brake road wheel that is at least semi aero and 20-21mm wide internally but havent’ found that yet. I am still not interested in any tire for road that is larger than 30mm. For my old tubular wheels I could put 28’s on them but I’m sure the profile would not be great and the tire width would measure more like 26
The Winspace Lun Hyper 23 SE R45 I am using now are 21mm internal and I really like them
I think its good to be sceptical when the premium for a certain product is outsized to the difference in manufacturing inputs. We routinely (in Aus anyhow) fork out +30% for 30/32c tyres. Just because an athlete has an elite FTP does not mean they can design an experiment to optimize a multi variable system! The cumulative measurement errors alone would far exceed the reported margins of benefit.
I ride 23/25 the main reason I ride 23 at front is I like to look of a thin tyre on the front. I think wide tyres on front dull the responsiveness of the bike.
i used to ride 21 mm at 120 psi on my tt bike for some decent pr sub 1 hr 40km but it was painful to ride essentially on rocks probably can go faster as some of the roads were too bumpy and i had leave tt position. I can get the same result on 28s at 70psi and have a much smoother ride.
I can understand similar result, I am not happy with blanket statements that wide are always faster
@@fede1275you're kind of missing the point a little. Wider is mostly faster but it's almost never slower. That was the point of the GCN video you quoted, even on the best surfaces a wider tyre does not cost you any time.
@@kpizzle1985 but then why there would be no aero loss on a wider tyre combo? Why few mm count so much on the frame and not on the tyre/wheel profile? A 23 or 25mm tyre on a 27mm wide aero wheel has to be faster than a 32c tyre on a 32mm wide wheel. It's just physics
@@fede1275 you make a frame as narrow as you can because being aero is it's main purpose. Comparing this to tyres is a false equivalence.
Whilst making a tyre a few mm wider does incur a miniscule aero penalty (have a look at the Parcours white paper), that penalty is vastly overcome by the significantly improved rolling resistance.
This is why TT riders use 28mm tyres, I know Remco uses 26 but he only weighs 60kg.
@@kpizzle1985 but RR is similar if we adjust the pressure to compensate for different width? Even bicycle rolling resistance say to go narrow if the comfort level is okay? Then Canyon must be crazy when they offered 23c and now 25c front tyres on the Aeroad. They could have done a simple test if it's so easy to measure. I believe there is no such a clear right or wrong argument. I am prepared to accept all the wide tyres benefits, but not at the expense of other traditional setups.
Intriguing video; I totally understand why you would be skeptical about the bike industry's push for aero, except when it comes to wheels. (I think aero factors can be safely ignored by almost all of us; unless you're doing a time trial, aero probably doesn't matter very much.) I agree that a lot of the marketing of wider tires has to do with the attempt to get people to accept hookless rims, which I don't think will be successful, because hookless rims on bicycles is an insane idea. And I agree that GCN videos cannot be trusted; the number of times they have arrived at a conclusion they didn't expect or like and then just dismissed the results is almost comical. (e.g., pedals, wheels, aero bikes, Lycra, tire width...)
Personally, though, I do like wider tires; they are more comfortable, they are safer on the absolutely appalling paved roads of the United States, they allow me to make detours on unpaved roads once in a while, and, crucially, I believe they are much less prone to getting punctures. There's a lot of research out there at this point that suggests that running lower air pressures is actually faster, because of the effects of road imperfections on tires at higher pressures; and running lower pressures with narrower tires isn't a very good idea because of the low volume. I use clincher 32mm tires at 80-85 psi, with TPU tubes, on my own bike, and this works for me because I care a bit more about endurance than speed, but I think the sweet spot for most road bikes is probably 28mm. 28mm gives you all the benefits of wider tires, but beyond this width they start getting too heavy, without any additional benefit in comfort or rolling resistance.
This is a perfectly understandable analysis and I can only agree with it. My issues are mainly with the current language that it seems to be used in the industry: if wider tyres have some advantages, it does not mean other set up have become instantly slower. If disc brakes are now the preferred choice, it does not mean rim brakes are dangerous. It seems they can't prop up the new tech without discrediting the previous set ups.
i find "width as measured" to be the most important metric these days. for example, 23, 25 and 28c GP4000 tires measure completely differently to 23, 25 and 28c GP5000 tires. the GP5000's all measuring much more narrow than the equivalent size GP4000. either way, my preference for balance between speed and comfort is to have a tire that measures between 29-30mm.
Bullets traveling faster through air most likely has much more to do with momentum staying the same meaning there’s the potential for higher velocity, as opposed to reduced drag (or maybe both)
I tried 28, 30 and 32. I ended up liking 30 the best. They were the fastest. (Pirelli PZero Race). I do run slightly wider wheels, 30 mm external diameter. It will depend a little bit on how good the roads are that you ride on. There is a lot of chipseal and cracked pavement where I live. The other thing is that with those tires I feel like I can ride all day. 32 mm felt kind of bouncy to me. Last time I rode 26 mm they felt really awful. One other thing to keep in mind, there is feel and there is real. Thinner tires feel faster even when they aren't because more of the high frequency road vibrations reach your hands. Wider tires are superior in cornering and especially in wet conditions.
Just try it and see.
32 on rear 30 on front 🚀
Thanks for this video. I am also not sold yet on wider tyres for speed for road nikes🤔
When tyre/rim combo is optimal for 23mm in frontwheel then go for it. (steers better, more aero, lighter, cheaper)
25 at front and 28 at rear is perfect for me👌
IMHO, 28 mm is sweet spot, golden mean, i have use 25, 28 and now 30 mm. By narrow tire, like 23/25 mm, you must pump to higher pressure, and then you are slower on rough tarmac, not much, but noticeably.
Yes, a lighter tire, with less rolling resistance, and less aerodynamic drag, and a smaller contact patch is slower.
Makes total sense. Lol
@@Hoops176 .. testing has shown that the narrower tyres have a higher rolling resistance
Yes, 30 mm max
@@cannon1156 I have ridden everything from 25 to 34. 28 is the best all things considered. 34 is a pig
@tonyg3091 .. always a personal choice. I find the larger tyres quick
i went from 28 to 30 this season and its faster in every way according to my strava. everything else equal.
Must be giving you more confidence to push harder, can it be the rr alone?
28C is the current preference for speed, you tried 26 and 30, on either end of optimal, and got about the same result. seems about right. If you are going about the same speed, wider gets you better handling, comfort, and puncture protection.
Jan Heine proofed that wider means faster up to 25 mm. And from there up to 54 mm it's not clear trend on smooth roads. Jan recently rode a FKT on 54 mm - accidentally because his fast bike with narrow 42 mm tyres was in the workshop. Those big wheels didn't hold him back, did they?
My 23c on the Vision wheels actually is closer to 25mm, so we are both right 😀
Once the industry makes as much money as they can off fat tires, a new study will come along enabling them to make a lot of money off thin tires again.
Why? Its not like tyres dont get replaced a lot, and they wont increase market share - people will just replace old tyres, not add extra tyres to their bike. It wont increase sales or market size in any way.
28mm - 32mm is my sweet spot at the moment. More 28mm these days since removing myself from the British cobblestones.
I don’t do hookless rims. I’ve got back to tubes.
bravissimo discorso! u are absolutely ritght in my opinion. we let us influence by the industry and as we know… marketing works.
It's just a matter of being realistic with the advice for different gear for different situations
There has to be an optimum width for tyres based on certain conditions and setups-your video exemplifies this . . .
I agree, cobbles in P-R wider tires, gravel the same, otherwise 25mm on crappy UK roads. Track riders use 19mm at 180 psi, they'd be 5 hours off the pace on 30-32mm at 80 psi. Baby smooth roads 23mm may be too large but they don't exist.
Except the #1expert on marginal gains, Dan Bigham, set the hour record and said he's using on 30mm tires @ 85 psi before the Olympics.
@@kenmoum162 My keen eyes saw no 30mm on the track bikes in the Olympics.
Still in the 25mm camp....with my tubeless setup I can run at a lower psi combined with my weight...75 psi front and 80 psi on the rear.
You lost me at tubeless... 😀
@@fede1275 I have a set of Edco Prosport Albis 50mm wheels that are a coupled with IRC tubeless tyre's.
Grant from GC Performance had the same opinion and would talk about how narrow tyres with higher pressure were best. He now runs 32mm on his SL8 🙃
@@lukedebono maybe from a bike shop perspective you can understand it...
The argument for them being faster is that even the road you are riding on in this video isn't perfectly smooth. The test that Bicycle Rolling Resistance performs is on a perfectly smooth steel drum. Once you take it out to the road even a smoother roads have microbumps that have some effect and end up benefitting wider tires at lower pressures. How low and how wide seems to depend on how bumpy the surface is though. If I remember correctly it is due to higher psi tires bouncing off those bumps in the road. Small losses in speed occur when that happens. Switching from 23's to 26's and at a lower psi I noticed a difference in speed on my normal roads. Not massive but slightly faster and more comfortable is great.
I can understand the smoothness over the road imperfections, but it seems that aero differences in different volumes are not taken in consideration, while minimal frame alterations are hailed like speed revolutions
@@fede1275that's a false equivalence, they do not contradict each other. An aero frames purpose is to be aero and it will not suffer from being narrower. A tyres sole purpose is to role efficiently, increasing the width improves its rolling resistance far more than it suffers aerodynamicly.
Have a read of the white paper published by Parcours on aerodynamics, it's on the Chrono wheels page.
Micro bumps 😂😂😂😂😂😂
When I was a kid, 27” x 1-1/4” was standard (32 mm). The bike industry goes back and forth creating false trends to boost sales.
I think it comes down to the difference between "feeling fast" and "being fast". Just as with aero - you can't feel it or see, but you can measure it.
Harder tires, lighter weight feels faster, but the only way to tell if you actually are faster, is to look at the numbers.
A good example for this is switching from basic alloy wheels to deep carbon wheels. Of course you feel the stiffness, but you can only tell that you're faster after checking your times on strava...
yes, but why no one ever tried lower pressures and wider tyres before? Could not a random cyclist have tried this in the 1950s and win over those old school guys on 19mm at 120psi?
@@fede1275 You need to take a look at bikes from the late 1800s. The tires were wide. It would help if you also considered the advances in road surfaces the increasing popularity of road cycling in the 70s - 90s with skinny high-pressure setups many fell in love with and the deterioration of those surfaces today. It's no wonder why a wider tire would be better on an older surface, yet difficult to comprehend because "I've always done it this way...".
I've seen this same way of thinking firsthand in the tile and hard surfaces industry with new tech and many ruined installations.
Not the case here at all.
@@fede1275 could a random cyclist really have tried this? All bike frames at the time were limiting tire width. Rim brakes, rims, everything that was available was set up for 19mm tubs. So you'd have to probably build your own wheels, frame and tires to be able to test this and also most importantly be willing to do so.
@@tongotongo3143 would be nice if you could explain why you think that. I'm just putting my thoughts out there, I could be totally wrong.
My guess is because 0 yaw aero gains are exaggerated while wider tyres and rim combo seems to perform better under real life environment. (More gains in >0 yaw)
@@pskonejott2568 not sure about that, larger volume is always less aero with the same shape?
@@fede1275 I'm also on the course of understanding this, it's to the point I've purchased some wide LB rim to test in person. Perhaps I'll update you when my wheels come.
@fede1275 Not necessarily, Dylan Johnson wind tunnel tested for Unbound and found that 2.2 inch Conti Race Kings were virtually the same as some narrower gravel tires.
As Josh Portner always says about aero guesses, "It depends."
In other words, nothing about aero can be "calculated" without wind tunnel testing.
@@kenmoum162 for sure, yes. But some general statements can be very close too. People were flying planes or using sails before wind tunnels and CFD.
@fede1275 seriously? We're talking about aero drag differences that are truly marginal gains. The real scientists who do wind tunnel testing know that conventional wisdom isn't useful.
Aero beats rolling resistance, I ride 24 mm because the tyre-rim transition is smoother in my setup (and on tarmac).
Did wider tires become faster before or after weight doesn't matter aero bike set ups? I put a 28mm tire that measured 29.3mm inflated on a rim that measured 28.3mm wide. I couldn't sleep thinking about the aero loss. So I changed to a 25mm on the front (measures 26mm). Still waiting for the speed gain. Cycling News has some interesting articles on wheel aero benefits or lack off is more accurate. Bicycle rolling resistance has data comparing different size of same tire (GP5000) and how adjusted for pressure there isn't much difference. The best I can tell is your pumping out 300 watts trying to maintain 22-24 mph and these tire/wheel modifications are worth five watts if you can dial everything in. Good luck.
@@jonve1368 it seems that the ratio between the rim and the tyre is the most important aero factor, so rhe rim should be wider than the rim. Then in my opinion with the same ratio we can discuss what's faster or not
@@fede1275 agree narrow will beat wide in aero according to physics. Wind tunnel testing confirms this and can be shown with CFD. The only reason a wider tire on a wider rim can be made faster is to offset the aero losses with rolling resistance or traction or comfort related gains. Fast, smooth, dry roads like I ride don't require wide tires so 25/28 is the best combination.
I’m in your camp yes more comfortable but I don’t think faster I’m still riding a Rim brake Cervelo S5 and I’m not convinced there is anything to gain going for a newer bike . I’m on the edge of French Alps and go up and down mountains no issues I do training rides with pros and they are on wider tyres discs and I still manage except I’m little tired after because I’m an old guy like you 😂 anyway good content I like what you do
For 28 or 30 is the best. Good speed on bad roads, good resistance to puncture. Good comfort.
wonder what the sprinters prefer ?
I don’t think it’s a conspiracy Federico, I’ve got a rim brake frame with 25s and disc with 28s and the 28s are faster everywhere BUT the 25s always feel faster for some reason. I’ve done my own test which was as controlled as I could make it and this again showed a considerable win for the wider tyres.
When I started road cycling in 2017 I was on 25s and I think as the industry started to transition towards 28s and tubeless the pros were still using 25mm tubulars, now I would say the situation is the opposite, most cyclists are on 28mm tyres and the pros are moving towards wider for example Tadej Pogacar ran 30mm at the TDF and even 32mm on at least one stage.
On a personal level I’ll take the fact that the increased comfort is worth it, the roads around Leicestershire aren’t the worst in the UK but they never get any better, I’m running my 28s at 58/68psi and have a set of 30mm to fit when these wear out.
I read a study sometime in the past that people relate increased vibration and some lost of stability as being 'fast', while smooth is 'slow'. This applies to cars, but the same can be said for bikes. So if you are on narrow tyres at higher pressure, the ride can be more jittery hence feels fast.
@@davidlau2467Yes that would make a lot of sense 👍
@@davidlau2467 however how come in all those years it seems no one found a better solution to narrow tyres and high pressures? And we are talking about racers that did literally everything to win and have an advantage on others
No, actually smooth feels faster. And while narrower with “decreased” comfort still feels faster, it means they are bloody faster.
From about 1988 rode 23mm continental grand prix. Then around 1992 they were discontinued and something called "grand prix 4 season" replaced them. We're not as good but better puncture resistance I would say. Still cotton sidewalls. Roll forward to 2024 "grand prix 4 season " now have solid rubber sidewalls and very uncomfortable.
Bring back cotton sidewalls.
The last 2 hour records have been set on 25mm tyres that measured 27.5mm, 25,mm tyres were used because they tested to be the fastest. If 25mm tyres are the fastest on a velodrome then they cannot be the fastest on the road.
Disagree. One of the disadvantages of thick tires is less favorable thickness-to-chord ratio. That is less of an issue if rim is very deep or if it is even a disc. On the velodrome thicker tire probably affects the whole system less.
@@jkk916 I'm not sure what or who you're disagreeing with. The team tested different tyres widths to see what was the fastest, 25s on the velodrome were the fastest.
@@kpizzle1985 I disagree with whoever may say that 25 mm tires are generally faster than 23 mm tires on road. I see no basis for that potential claim.
@@jkk916 ok, so you think to go faster on the track you use wider tyres than you do on the road? Interesting.
You're disagreeing with every professional cyclist that's existed in the last ~10 years 😅
@kpizzle1985 you didn't get the "thickness-to-cord" bit.
Its actually really, really simple. The vibration loses from wider tyres is less than the aero gains from narrower tyres. And those vibration loses start on surfaces you would consider "smooth". The only way to minimise vibration loses is on the glass-smooth velodrome. On the road, vibration loses are greater than aero gains.
I am not sure it is that simple. Maybe it depends on the road surface. I also wonder if it is that simple why the finest minds did not find this out before and we could have had wider road tyres for much longer? We all slow down in rough patches, but I want to be fast when roads are good and everyone is pushing.
@ The finest minds have known about vibration loses since the 60’s…
@@silverburn55 Should have implemented those 32c tyres sooner then
Personally in my experience on pretty good roads anyways, I ran several two size tires on SWORKS SL6, 26mm and 28mm Conti TT tires.
While the 28's were more comfy, the 25mm were faster, after doing my 28mm test, when I put on the 26mm's I immediately could tell the defference, the 26mm's were faster to me and a better proformer, maybe different on rough roads but on good roads no contest, the 26mm were faster.
@@rtwktFam 👍👍
Pressure will make a big difference a wide tyre 25 or 28 mm with a high pressure will be faster on most rods than a thin 23 mm because it will have more or less the same amount on road surface but will absorb ruff surface more or flex easier every time a 23 mm hits a bump and jumps your speed is transferred up wards and not forward but the flex of 25 or 28 mm does not do that so much they still move forward.