Sideways: creates a well written and engaging theory that would hold up in any literary analysis class. Also Sideways: *immediately tries to disprove it.*
Totally off-topic, but just watching clips from this film. The stop-motion is gorgeous. It's not fluid enough to imply any computer enhancement (like later efforts such as _Corpse Bride_ ) and thus your consciousness of how much work and detail went into every frame, puppet, and movement.....is heightened. It is truly art on display. It's a simple story, with a solid colorful cast, amazing score, and fantastic visual effects. Sure, the story isn't extremely complex, but it is clear why this film still endures so strongly in our brains.
I would assume that since music moves us, literally, especially classic, whether we acknowledge it is doing that, is a huge factor. Wouldn’t you? I also love the stop motion. It makes it timeless.
A note on the stop motion. My professor at university was one of the original animators on this film. This film was made in the 90s before computer programs (namely dragon frame) were invented and before the digital camera boom. Therefore, this movie was shot on film and they often couldn’t see what they were shooting as they shot it. A lot of math went into every scene as it does in a lot of animation. The only thing that was partly digitized and computer generated was jacks ghost dog. It was one of their first forays into this digital landscape. (Specifically my professor animated the three little kids for the most part).
@@nikkisadanceingstar that's really awesome. I loved Lock, Shock & Barrel. You're lucky. And the stop motion is exactly why I went to see this as a kid. I knew it was painstaking, and it was the first feature length full stop motion (except for Zero) at the time. I was big into stuff like this at 13. My brother didn't want to go because he thought it was silent. But my parents MADE him accompany me. Boy, was he pleasantly surprised. He liked it as much as I did!
I agree about the artistry. It's strange that a Gothic love story about the perils of cultural appropriation and being humbled into redemption should be such a pop culture staple, but there it is!
As much as the musical breakdown is interesting, if you look at the behind the scenes interviews with Tim Burton he admits that he had a basic idea of story but no meat. As a result he told Elfman to just start writing music and so the script and story really developed from Elfman. So to me it strays from theory and makes total sense.
I always thought this film was basically a series of songs with only a few (non-musical number) scenes linking them together...that explains it! The film is literally Musical the Musical.
*Superultramegaa LastName* Those aren't his fault, as he is bound by the director and the studio to give them what they want and not what he thinks would be best for the movie.
Mark Boltz I'm aware, but even someone like Steve Jablonsky manages to create and develop memorable themes, even with Michael Bay breathing down his neck, and the editors cutting down his music. I'm just saying Elfman could do more with what he's given at times. Not that he isn't a master at his craft, and a genious. He absolutely is.
One of the neat things about having a birthday on the 30th is the chance you can get multiple cakes for playing at the cake walk at certain halloween events. My twin sister and I would basically get our own autumn themed cake most years.
Keep in mind Elfman has like no formal musical training and just makes stuff that sounds good to him. It's kind of what makes him sound so... Danny Elfman EDIT: Some people seems to have thought this was an insult, when in fact I was COMPLIMENTING him. In fact, my experiences at Uni kind of make me think that most people with "formal" training are pretentious assholes. Danny is basically an idol in my eyes.
This was plenty academic. You had an argument and you presented your evidence to establish it, including defining key terms for the sake of communicating your stance. But for the prolific use of the word "stank" (and honestly academia could use a less rigid vocabulary), you'd have a solid paper with this.
That feeling when you need to increase your word count: "Sally's song is minor. Specifically e minor, which means it's in a minor scale that begins on the note 'e.'"
The notes are the same but the rhythm is different, it's actually one of my favorite Christmas carols because it's joyous while having suspense through the melody's association with death. But that's a me thing.
Che mervana Right? This sounds “conspiratory” only when you try to explain it with words, but obviously when you’re listening to the music everything becomes obvious. Like DUH obvious. Man I adore music
This video is absolutely amazing! Also at 6:23 when Sally says "Jack, I know how you feel," the melody of "Sally's Song" is being played in the background which is super cool since she hasn't even sung it yet at this point in the film; its introduction is actually right before "Jack's Lament" when Jack's talking to the band then it shows Sally in the graveyard so it helps introduce her character and then lead into and out of Jack's sort of expositional/introductory song, thus setting them up together from the beginning of the movie.
Honestly, after a certain point, it doesn't MATTER if Elfman intended these connections or not. If death of the author is a concept that can be used in lit crit, why not extend it to death of the composer for musical analysis?
Witchfynder_Finder I agree. I think that and authorial intent in general apply to any creative medium. Once the people get, perception becomes reality no matter how subjective it is between different persons.
Elfman definitely meant these to exist, he did this all the time in the Boingo days. Also death of the author doesn’t translate too well into music theory.
Agree,but msot times composers don't just writte pieces that "sound good". Writting music,especially for characters in a musical movie, it's a long process and every ntoe has something to say.he obviously intended. That's the difference between those compositions and those pop balland type of shit we see in the last decades animation...
I'm pretty musically illiterate, but I've always been under the impression that Danny Elfman does put a lot of meaning behind his music. I wouldn't be surprised if he did all this on purpose. Also, Happy Birthday! Halloween is probably the best holiday to have your birthday near, because you'll still get presents for Christmas and you'll get double the sweets!
I don't know why you think that's so out there. Elfman has a history of using modules to express narrative things (i.e. The Simpsons opening theme uses the Lydian scale because the mix between the stability of the tonal major chord and the instability of the raised fourth triton relationship is a perfect musical encapsulation of the Simpsons themselves - a normal American blue collar family in a happy sitcom but with that bit of instability that never quite disappears). It sounds very reasonable to me that he thought about all of that here too. I'll go farther and postulate a different conclusion - Jack was bored with the minor key so he tried going major. However that wasn't what he needed. What he needed is to add some little spark to his mundanity. Instead of going a 180 from minor to major, he learns that what he needs is just a little variation, a minor key with a new element (the lowered 2nd), represented by Sally.
The Simpsons theme is Lydian with a flat seventh, a mode of the melodic minor scale. Associating the Lydian mode with comedy is one of the biggest cliches in movie and TV history. Other than the flat seventh, it's a perfectly mundane choice.
As a professional musician who majored in theory, I have to say this holds up. Superb analysis!! And you're right, even if Elfman may not have done this *consciously*, it's in there, and it validates his great instincts as a dramatic composer.
I do know a bit about music theory, and I love your analysis! I am a vocal instructor and a pianist, and one of the things that I teach my students is the need to find performance clues in the score. These are exactly the kinds of things I look for. I don't think it actually matters if these were intended by the composer. What matters is that they can help with character development and interpretation. Thank you for such a well-thought out theory. I will be using this when I next have students working on some of the music! Oh, and happy belated birthday!
10:00: "The Holiday Movies That Made Us" documentary on TNBC revealed that Danny Elfman composed the music first before the script was finished, and he literally made Jack Skellington's songs with himself in mind. The screenwriter was his then-girlfriend, Caroline Thompson, who actually brought in Sally Rags into the story as a deuteragonist, and she also put a lot of herself into the character. In a way, the two lovebirds wrote a love story together, whether they were consciously aware of it or not. Their relationship didn't last IRL, but it's an interesting production tidbit that backs up the musical theory.
Your channel is a marvel!! Why is there almost no other channel with this level of creativity, humor and actual academic insight about music!?! Could you do a video adressing what a musical play should bear? Or what's your favourite one? Come on, do something about musical plays as a whole, your views will be very interesting! Greetings from a fan in México :)
I actually used to be a music composition major and even though that is no longer my academic passion it's still a very dear personal hobby that I practice very frequently. As part of a film score in class I took we were actually taught how to incorporate musical themes to help emphasize plot elements, character emotion, relationships, tension, basically to just reinforce everything that's on the screen whether it's visible or not. So you're actually not making a stretch of it at all. And Major (heh.) kudos to you for picking up on it from that one phrygian recurrence. If you're interested in that kind of musical technique, look in to the OST of Undertale. It's done plentifully and masterfully there.
You've mentionned before how "Making Christmas" uses the melodic contour and rhythmic pattern of the first four notes of the Dies Irea; but have you noticed that the way this motif of four notes is repeated two or four times in a row, many times, evocates a completely different traditional song, the melody of which happens to have the exact same melodic countour as the first four notes of the Dies Irae, but with a different rhythm pattern: the Carol of the Bells (originally a traditional Ukrainian song called "Shchedryk": ua-cam.com/video/PvgSKnrj62g/v-deo.html)? Thus, "Making Christmas" melody is not just referencing death, it's also still referencing christmas - so maybe it's a song about killing christmas, *or*, maybe, it's a song about the denizens of the kingdom of the dead having a christmas celebration?
"Because what Jack really needed was to find someone who understood him for who he is in order for him to actually be happy." 😢yeah that sounds about right
my goodness this is a well out together video. You apply some of the things you pick up from music in the actual video. Like how in your video about superhero music you mentioned that certain themes only have an impact because they are continuously played with certain moments which integrates the tune into a certain thing, and here you ingrained that this special "stank note" is like the spongebob clip of him with his stanky breath. So then you display the clip when a character sings the note. It makes that association. This is awesome.
I think it’s really awesome that you got so excited and passionate about Nightmare Before Christmas to come up with this very specific analysis. I think it’s a perfectly valid analysis, you support your idea well, and I think it’s a valid lens through which to analyze the music even if it wasn’t part of the original intent of the composer.
Sally's song will always have a place in my heart. Its the song I'd always sing when I had an impossible crush. I even found a way to had it playing in my friendster profile YEARS! Ago
"Making Christmas" is perhaps more closely connected to the Carol of the Bells; sing the carol very slowly as regular eighth notes and you'll find the melody to Elfman's song (Hark, how the bells/Sweet silver bells = Making Christmas/Making Christmas).
Wow! I love both that song and this movie and when I read wmyour comment I immediately went to try and listen for myself! And I was not disappointed, the similarity is there to notice of you try! So thank you :)
I love how you geek out to this movie and its music, I'm glad to know I'm not alone ahaha. I've always been fascinated by how the music in this film sounded, "Jack's Lament", especially the part where he's coming down from the hill, always gave me the chills. Love the fact that "Making Christmas" melody is in fact a Dies Irae, I'm committed to this music theory rant - says a music student who failed terribly at composition xD
THIS IS SO BRILLIANT!!! Wow this is so wonderful, it makes me love this movie that much more. You're COMPLETELY RIGHT. In EVERY WAY. Thank you so much for sharing your analysis, I'm sure the creators of the film would be honored to know that someone understood the FULL depth of what they tried to convey, and released it in such a way that others can easily understand. Your video is excellently paced and well explained too!!! I was hooked the whole way!
Even if Elfman wrote the notes that way because it sounded good, I think there is still an argument to that unconscious narrative that drives all artists to compose, write, or paint in a way we can all recognize as circular and complete. (Your videos get my brain buzzing, thank you so much for them. As someone who knows shit all about a musical theory, I wish you would talk slower because it i feel like I'm barely holding on to a wayward train!! If your afraid musical theory will be too dry or borign if you slow down, i think your wrong ;) We will stay with you.
Just found this. Ready to put on my tin foil hat and add to this. So I think you are right but I'll take it a step further. Jack is only able to sing in major in Christmastown and when he tries to explain this to the town that Phyrgian Stank is the best way he can try and get the members of Halloweentown to understand the concept of Christmas as best as he can. We see Sally and Jack singing in Phyrgian Scales because they have the ability to think outside of their own experiences. Jack wants something more, Sally is an empath and psychic. Everyone else in the town is content with staying with the status quo. When it starts to snow in Halloween town, the people of Halloweentown finally experience a world outside of what they know which allows them the ability to sing in a major scale/feel something different.
I see Nightmare Before Christmas in the thumbnail *instantly clicks and likes* Nightmare was my love for the first six years of my life. I haven’t changed ;A; Love the video by the way!!
"Phrygian" is also the same as major "Ionian", and minor "aeolian " these are the harmonized modes of a Major Scale. It;s the third of the scale. Super clever composition with out having to do the impossible.
I just found your channel this month. The Nightmare Before Christmas is one of my family's favorite movies, too. Thank you for this analysis, especially the part about Jack's personal journey/growth. For me, the love story between him and Sally always seemed a little tacked on but if the entire movie is actually about Jack finding someone that truly understands him and finding that is his true source of happiness, it ties everything together nicely. As The Pumpkin King, Jack has the adoration and admiration of everyone in town but notice that nobody seems to connect with him personally. The admiration is based on his celebrity, not who he is as an individual. That also explains why he's so fed up with his life. I used to think he was just spoiled, so used to being treated like royalty that life had become boring to him. In reality, there was something very important missing in his life and he didn't even realize it. Sally is a new addition to the town, having been created by the mad scientist maybe just a few years before the events of the movie. So, it makes sense that they hadn't become a couple yet. Jack's been around for a very long time but Sally didn't even exist until recently. Spending time with her made him realize what he was missing in his life - a real connection.
When you start digging deeper into the music theory of Sally’s Song, it only gets even cooler. The “stank note” you are referring to is actually a full modulation in the orchestra to the major key up one half step. The following melodic line she sings has major tonality going up, but in the decent, Elfman adds accidentals leading to a modulation back to the original minor key. These overlapping major and minor scales create the Phrygian sound that you hear, which holds the tension between the two keys. But immediately after the resolution back down, the melody jumps up to the relative major key and the orchestra eventually follows. The song continues in the major key long enough to release the tension, but after a few descending lines, it stumbles back down to the minor key with just 4 descending notes and gets enforced by the repetitive final line (except for the very end with the Picardy third). So basically, the entire struggle shown throughout the movie between Halloween and Christmas, Minor and Major, and what happens when you combine the two worlds, is all displayed in just one verse of Sally’s Song. And it all ends with character development you can hear. Danny Elfman is an absolute genius.
10:03 was so satisfying, cut the music open. This video was great, as a child I watched this movie so many times I lost count, I would rewind my favorite parts. As an adult I found the soundtrack at a market (back then this movie wasn't so popular, I guess it was because it wasn't promoted by Disney? I remember the Touchstone logo at the beginning of my cassette version) and I pretty much know all the songs and the poems by heart. So I 200% enjoyed this video, thank you so much for sharing it!
Omgoodness I was NOT disappointed, I am so glad to have found your video, whether true or not thank you for giving yet more reasons to love this film!!!!!!!!!!! YES!
This is fantastic. I’ve also been having my own conspiracy theory that the unprepared modulations in a lot of the songs is a characterization of how frenetic and kooky the characters are. The only one whose song doesn’t modulate at all is sally. And santa says she’s the only one with any sense.
Great find! You identified the spiritual-emotional motivation in the music. I think it wouldn't be laughable to professional analysts at all! 1 This is not a conspiracy theory. It has nothing to do with 2 or more people making an agreement or being in agreement in secret or immorally. 2 This is an excellent analysis. It's perfectly logical but not a criminal conspiracy.
No one is saying so you need to know, these are SMART...the visuals, the banter, the nod to more educated viewers while still explaining concepts step by step...you have excellent, interesting videos, really. PBS eat your heart out.
i saw this for the first time in high school and i thought it was the most profound thing ive ever heard in my life. now im working on my music degree and im still with u on this. I need to make my friends watch this so we can talk about it without having to simplify our vocabulary lmao
There is no question that these connections are present. You gave evidence of that. The only question is whether these were conscious or sub-conscious decisions by the composer. It is the task of music theory to only answer the former question not the later. Great video.
I love this video so much. The passion that you have for analysis is amazing, and the comedy has really helped me get through some tough times. Keep doing what you like, dude, because chances are, you're going to make other people happy while doing it.
This was an amazing video! Also referring to the minor second in the phrygian mode as "phrygian stank" is so awesome I'm def gonna steal that. Thanks for the stellar content!
I WAS THINKING ABOUT THE MAJOR/MINOR CHRISTMAS/HALLOWEEN THING EARLIER WHEN I WAS LISTENING TO THE SOUNDTRACK AND IM SO GLAD I WASNT THE ONLY ONE THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR CONFIRMING THIS OMG
It sounds like Elfman intended all of this, he is an incredible composer and it strikes me as less of a theory and more of a subliminal fact the music reflects on the characters emotional state
I love the fact that you wrapped it up with instances that contradict your thesis. It's be cool if more people did that. Especially with how many film analysis videos there have been in the last 5 years, and they all present every film like the director had complete control of every tiny detail and are complete geniuses. But, the reality is, filming is chaotic, there's a million things that go wrong, they're contending with schedules and they occasionally film off gut. Some are meticulous and geniuses, some aren't but are very talented. I'd love to see more analysis that admitted it. That while, most of it might be thought out and planned, not all of it is and that's okay.
I love all of this and I'm glad I'm not the only one who obsessed over this movie lol. I totally appreciate that you're dissecting the plot through music theory, so brilliant because it IS like an operetta with a clear place for music to help move the story. I always thought of Sally's special "understanding" of Jack's feelings was a combination of things, 1) wanting to be something more than you are (she doesn't want her whole worth to be her existence as finkelstein's doll) and 2) having an instinct for recognizing beauty (she makes a butterfly potion for Jack while he "experiments" with Christmas stuff, etc). Thank you for posting, keep it up!
In other news, your videos are one of the first things I showed my boyfriend when we first started talking and I can't help but think that they gave a good segue to talk reallllly talking sooooooooooooooooo if we get married then maybe you're partly to blame.
Most music theories I've heard are extremely confusing, and don't make any sense. THIS right here makes PERFECT sense, and I really like the connections you've made. Good job.
I'm curious as to what you don't understand. There's zero music theory in this video other than there is a generic 'happy' scale, and a 'sad' one - then another scale that is one note different to the sad one. He uses the sad scale for the sad music, he uses the happy scale for the happy music, and he uses this other scale to contrast the sad one without being happy.
I'm absolutely addicted to these videos, as a music fan but not student. I am also not a Disney/musical fan, but these commentary videos are fantastic either way
So I came to this channel after OSP mentioned you when Red brought up the Dias Irae leitmotif, and I scrolled through your most recent videos, saw this, and now I'm subscribed. I thought I couldn't love this movie any more, and now I do.
Hey, this comment is so late, but I'm also born around Halloween and watch this almost every year for my birthday and I studied narrative analysis. Your musical analysis perfectly fits the story. Jack is fascinated by and obsessed with Christmas throughout the film, but if you look specifically at the things he loves about Christmas Town, it's that the citizens all get along, children are safely protected by their parents, there are couples kissing, etc: all of these forms of affection and love surround him there, but you can't see any of that in Halloween Town. If the story has subplots, the only two would be Sally's plot (i.e. having been made as a servant/implied wife to a man, not having choices or love) and "Oogie's boys" (i.e. Locke, Shock, & Barrel choosing to help Jack, but ultimately defecting back to Oogie out of fear - really listen to how much they emphasize how scary Oogie is). Both subplots deal with loveless perversions of different types of relationships Jack craves: romantic and parental/familial. In the original poem, Jack goes on to have a few skeleton kids, which always struck me as hugely irrelevant until I noticed this theming. All along, what Jack really craves is love, understanding, and a deep interpersonal connection with someone.
I love this theory a lot, especially since this is absolutely my favorite movie above all. I really love it when music theory that goes deeper than the surface is used to create things like this. It's such an incredible way to analyze a movie. In the E Phrygian, the scale contains the same notes as C major, but it starts on the 3rd (or Mi) of the scale. So it simply revolves around a different degree of the scale, while leaving full potential of being in major. I really appreciate this theory and it helps me see the movie in another light. Soundtracks are really incredible. Fantastic work!
"Phrygian Stank" is my new indie band
Amelia Hamerlynck do it
I’ve been smoking a lot of “Phrygian Stank”
If I had a band, it’ll probably be called stagefright. Ima make sure nobody’s gonna steal the idea.
Silver Addie Fun Pack! Uh... cool
How do I like a comment twice
Yes, my whole life I've been saying "I like when one note is like a flat one, but in tune" and now I know, I LIKE PHRYGIAN
That’s actually a great way to describe it!
And I like the constant use of that one sponge bob gif while saying one of the most academic videos I’ve ever seen
I love that phrygian sound anywhereeeeeee even if its just to enhance resolutions that motion is just so kooool to me
“Ok, so Bach...” made me lol pretty hard and iunno why
It's because he says Buck instead of Bach 🤣🤦♂️
I read that as "made me pretty hard" and I was thoroughly confused
Closed captioning: Bob
That lol technically makes sense but it doesn’t sit right with me
It made me laugh hard too people thought it was pronounced Bawk like a chicken
Sideways: creates a well written and engaging theory that would hold up in any literary analysis class.
Also Sideways: *immediately tries to disprove it.*
Totally off-topic, but just watching clips from this film. The stop-motion is gorgeous. It's not fluid enough to imply any computer enhancement (like later efforts such as _Corpse Bride_ ) and thus your consciousness of how much work and detail went into every frame, puppet, and movement.....is heightened. It is truly art on display. It's a simple story, with a solid colorful cast, amazing score, and fantastic visual effects. Sure, the story isn't extremely complex, but it is clear why this film still endures so strongly in our brains.
It's often the simple things that endure.
I would assume that since music moves us, literally, especially classic, whether we acknowledge it is doing that, is a huge factor. Wouldn’t you?
I also love the stop motion. It makes it timeless.
A note on the stop motion. My professor at university was one of the original animators on this film. This film was made in the 90s before computer programs (namely dragon frame) were invented and before the digital camera boom. Therefore, this movie was shot on film and they often couldn’t see what they were shooting as they shot it. A lot of math went into every scene as it does in a lot of animation. The only thing that was partly digitized and computer generated was jacks ghost dog. It was one of their first forays into this digital landscape. (Specifically my professor animated the three little kids for the most part).
@@nikkisadanceingstar that's really awesome. I loved Lock, Shock & Barrel. You're lucky. And the stop motion is exactly why I went to see this as a kid.
I knew it was painstaking, and it was the first feature length full stop motion (except for Zero) at the time. I was big into stuff like this at 13. My brother didn't want to go because he thought it was silent. But my parents MADE him accompany me. Boy, was he pleasantly surprised. He liked it as much as I did!
I agree about the artistry. It's strange that a Gothic love story about the perils of cultural appropriation and being humbled into redemption should be such a pop culture staple, but there it is!
As much as the musical breakdown is interesting, if you look at the behind the scenes interviews with Tim Burton he admits that he had a basic idea of story but no meat. As a result he told Elfman to just start writing music and so the script and story really developed from Elfman. So to me it strays from theory and makes total sense.
I always thought this film was basically a series of songs with only a few (non-musical number) scenes linking them together...that explains it! The film is literally Musical the Musical.
Henry Selick is the one who actually added "meat" to the story.
So, your point is.... that Danny Elfman is an amazing composer?
Eh... have you heard Alice in Wonderland or Avengers: Age of Ultron?
Yes, I've watched both movies and I am pretty aware that Danny is one of the greatest modern songwriters alive
Or something around those lines
Alexandre Rocha
Yeah, he is, just has some dud scores.
*Superultramegaa LastName* Those aren't his fault, as he is bound by the director and the studio to give them what they want and not what he thinks would be best for the movie.
Mark Boltz
I'm aware, but even someone like Steve Jablonsky manages to create and develop memorable themes, even with Michael Bay breathing down his neck, and the editors cutting down his music. I'm just saying Elfman could do more with what he's given at times. Not that he isn't a master at his craft, and a genious. He absolutely is.
One of the neat things about having a birthday on the 30th is the chance you can get multiple cakes for playing at the cake walk at certain halloween events. My twin sister and I would basically get our own autumn themed cake most years.
Mine is on the 31st!
But that's just a theory....a MUSIC theory!
I could get behind this!
Thanks for watching.
Get out😂
don't give matpat any ideas
Cam-a-cam-mal, Pria-toi, Gan delah.
Keep in mind Elfman has like no formal musical training and just makes stuff that sounds good to him. It's kind of what makes him sound so... Danny Elfman
EDIT:
Some people seems to have thought this was an insult, when in fact I was COMPLIMENTING him. In fact, my experiences at Uni kind of make me think that most people with "formal" training are pretentious assholes. Danny is basically an idol in my eyes.
Ruby the Guinea Pig a lot of great musicians, don’t have musical training.
TheGreatGeekDetective
I mean the Beatles couldn't read music
Yeah but... I mean.. Major and Minor, phrygian scale, do u really need real training in musical theory to understand that?
oingo boingo
Oingo Boingo 101
This was plenty academic. You had an argument and you presented your evidence to establish it, including defining key terms for the sake of communicating your stance. But for the prolific use of the word "stank" (and honestly academia could use a less rigid vocabulary), you'd have a solid paper with this.
That feeling when you need to increase your word count:
"Sally's song is minor. Specifically e minor, which means it's in a minor scale that begins on the note 'e.'"
@@potterfanz6780 "Sally's song is minor. Specifically 16, so you shouldn't be messing around with it!"
@@yoyohayli Omg XDDDD
The jazz department at my uni considers “stank” to be a relevant and essential academic music term. :v
@@yoyohayli Pssh! Sally's Song is old enough to drink and have a mortgage.
Real music conspiracy theory: Dies Irae and Carol of the Bells are the same tune.
*gasp*
You're a madman, Robert! A mAdmAn!
I can't handle this right now
The notes are the same but the rhythm is different, it's actually one of my favorite Christmas carols because it's joyous while having suspense through the melody's association with death. But that's a me thing.
I always thought Carol of the Bells sounded a lot more ominous than festive. This explains why.
Oh shit...oH SHIT
this isn't really a conspiracy theory, more just a analysis of the storytelling in the music. still a cool idea tho.
No comments? Really?
Well I'm the first comment.
1,1k likes
Į
Right, I feel like I was waiting for the big reveal and then.....nothing.
Che mervana Right? This sounds “conspiratory” only when you try to explain it with words, but obviously when you’re listening to the music everything becomes obvious. Like DUH obvious. Man I adore music
There is still a possibility the producers didn’t care or were going for something else so it isn’t purely factual making it a theory a music theory
This video is absolutely amazing! Also at 6:23 when Sally says "Jack, I know how you feel," the melody of "Sally's Song" is being played in the background which is super cool since she hasn't even sung it yet at this point in the film; its introduction is actually right before "Jack's Lament" when Jack's talking to the band then it shows Sally in the graveyard so it helps introduce her character and then lead into and out of Jack's sort of expositional/introductory song, thus setting them up together from the beginning of the movie.
Do you smell it? That smell. A kind of smelly smell. The smelly smell that smells... smelly.
Anchovies
*PHRYGIAN STANK*
It’s the Phrygian stank
"pay attention to the bass"
me, who had problems at music class and the school band because i cant hear bass notes: i will :)
oh noo
This video is in the godamn centre of the Venn diagram of my loves
I love how we often describe dissonance in music as "stank" and "spice" and other like adjectives
Honestly, after a certain point, it doesn't MATTER if Elfman intended these connections or not. If death of the author is a concept that can be used in lit crit, why not extend it to death of the composer for musical analysis?
Witchfynder_Finder I agree. I think that and authorial intent in general apply to any creative medium. Once the people get, perception becomes reality no matter how subjective it is between different persons.
"Lit crit" is a delightful turn of phrase. Also, I agree.
Elfman definitely meant these to exist, he did this all the time in the Boingo days. Also death of the author doesn’t translate too well into music theory.
Agree,but msot times composers don't just writte pieces that "sound good". Writting music,especially for characters in a musical movie, it's a long process and every ntoe has something to say.he obviously intended.
That's the difference between those compositions and those pop balland type of shit we see in the last decades animation...
Wow, this is an opera. As someone who has studied music theory for years, this still made sense.
I won't be able to watch this film again without thinking of FriGGiNg SpOngEBob
Stank
stank
Stank
stank
stank
Is phrydgian that "whiny" note I've always loved?
Gimme some examples and I can tell you
I'm going to make a guess here, and say that your "whiny" note is probably a flat 5. Play C, G, F#. Is that F# the note you're talking about?
No, i know what your talking about, like the clarinets in oogie boogie? no thats an octave i believe
phrygian is a mode of the major scale. it is not a note.
I'm pretty musically illiterate, but I've always been under the impression that Danny Elfman does put a lot of meaning behind his music. I wouldn't be surprised if he did all this on purpose. Also, Happy Birthday! Halloween is probably the best holiday to have your birthday near, because you'll still get presents for Christmas and you'll get double the sweets!
I was fully expecting a clip of Patrick yelling "yeah e minor yeah!".
I don't know why you think that's so out there. Elfman has a history of using modules to express narrative things (i.e. The Simpsons opening theme uses the Lydian scale because the mix between the stability of the tonal major chord and the instability of the raised fourth triton relationship is a perfect musical encapsulation of the Simpsons themselves - a normal American blue collar family in a happy sitcom but with that bit of instability that never quite disappears). It sounds very reasonable to me that he thought about all of that here too. I'll go farther and postulate a different conclusion - Jack was bored with the minor key so he tried going major. However that wasn't what he needed. What he needed is to add some little spark to his mundanity. Instead of going a 180 from minor to major, he learns that what he needs is just a little variation, a minor key with a new element (the lowered 2nd), represented by Sally.
Interesting, but I think The Simpsons theme's Lydian quality was intended to allude to The Jetsons.
Exactly
YES.
The Simpsons theme is Lydian with a flat seventh, a mode of the melodic minor scale. Associating the Lydian mode with comedy is one of the biggest cliches in movie and TV history. Other than the flat seventh, it's a perfectly mundane choice.
Great addition to the theory
But can we get an F for those whose birthdays are really close to Christmas
Ha, you silly
II'm always wearing an aluminum tinfoil hat
It does wonders for my skin tone
Shoutout to all the October babies who internalized Halloween so hard it became a personality trait *literally had a TNBC themed wedding*
That fucking Sponge-bob gif fucking cracked me up every god damn time.
"Phrygian stank note" is my new favorite phrase
Great content as alway Ethen, the additional editing flourishes are really working.
It's always weird to see a UA-camr I'm subscribed to comment on a video of another UA-camr I'm subscribed to.
As a professional musician who majored in theory, I have to say this holds up. Superb analysis!! And you're right, even if Elfman may not have done this *consciously*, it's in there, and it validates his great instincts as a dramatic composer.
I do know a bit about music theory, and I love your analysis! I am a vocal instructor and a pianist, and one of the things that I teach my students is the need to find performance clues in the score. These are exactly the kinds of things I look for. I don't think it actually matters if these were intended by the composer. What matters is that they can help with character development and interpretation. Thank you for such a well-thought out theory. I will be using this when I next have students working on some of the music! Oh, and happy belated birthday!
10:00: "The Holiday Movies That Made Us" documentary on TNBC revealed that Danny Elfman composed the music first before the script was finished, and he literally made Jack Skellington's songs with himself in mind. The screenwriter was his then-girlfriend, Caroline Thompson, who actually brought in Sally Rags into the story as a deuteragonist, and she also put a lot of herself into the character. In a way, the two lovebirds wrote a love story together, whether they were consciously aware of it or not. Their relationship didn't last IRL, but it's an interesting production tidbit that backs up the musical theory.
Your channel is a marvel!! Why is there almost no other channel with this level of creativity, humor and actual academic insight about music!?! Could you do a video adressing what a musical play should bear? Or what's your favourite one? Come on, do something about musical plays as a whole, your views will be very interesting! Greetings from a fan in México :)
I LOVE SIDEWAYS HE'S SO UPBEAT AND HAPPY AND EXCITED ABOUT THINGS AND AAAHHHH LOVE YOU
I actually used to be a music composition major and even though that is no longer my academic passion it's still a very dear personal hobby that I practice very frequently. As part of a film score in class I took we were actually taught how to incorporate musical themes to help emphasize plot elements, character emotion, relationships, tension, basically to just reinforce everything that's on the screen whether it's visible or not. So you're actually not making a stretch of it at all. And Major (heh.) kudos to you for picking up on it from that one phrygian recurrence. If you're interested in that kind of musical technique, look in to the OST of Undertale. It's done plentifully and masterfully there.
I CANT BELIEVE SOMEONE ELSE NOTICED!! I felt this in my bones but didn't know how to put it into words. Great video!!
You've mentionned before how "Making Christmas" uses the melodic contour and rhythmic pattern of the first four notes of the Dies Irea; but have you noticed that the way this motif of four notes is repeated two or four times in a row, many times, evocates a completely different traditional song, the melody of which happens to have the exact same melodic countour as the first four notes of the Dies Irae, but with a different rhythm pattern: the Carol of the Bells (originally a traditional Ukrainian song called "Shchedryk": ua-cam.com/video/PvgSKnrj62g/v-deo.html)?
Thus, "Making Christmas" melody is not just referencing death, it's also still referencing christmas - so maybe it's a song about killing christmas, *or*, maybe, it's a song about the denizens of the kingdom of the dead having a christmas celebration?
That's actually super interesting! very neat
Right--I was listening to "Making Christmas" once, and I thought "That sounds like an un-syncopated 'Carol of the Bells.'"
"Because what Jack really needed was to find someone who understood him for who he is in order for him to actually be happy."
😢yeah that sounds about right
I really loved this trip down the rabbit hole. The Nightmare before Christmas is one of my favourite movies too, so I really enjoyed the ride!
my goodness this is a well out together video. You apply some of the things you pick up from music in the actual video. Like how in your video about superhero music you mentioned that certain themes only have an impact because they are continuously played with certain moments which integrates the tune into a certain thing, and here you ingrained that this special "stank note" is like the spongebob clip of him with his stanky breath. So then you display the clip when a character sings the note. It makes that association.
This is awesome.
I really like this conspiracy
I think it’s really awesome that you got so excited and passionate about Nightmare Before Christmas to come up with this very specific analysis. I think it’s a perfectly valid analysis, you support your idea well, and I think it’s a valid lens through which to analyze the music even if it wasn’t part of the original intent of the composer.
HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!!
Sally's song will always have a place in my heart. Its the song I'd always sing when I had an impossible crush. I even found a way to had it playing in my friendster profile YEARS! Ago
"Making Christmas" is perhaps more closely connected to the Carol of the Bells; sing the carol very slowly as regular eighth notes and you'll find the melody to Elfman's song (Hark, how the bells/Sweet silver bells = Making Christmas/Making Christmas).
Wow! I love both that song and this movie and when I read wmyour comment I immediately went to try and listen for myself! And I was not disappointed, the similarity is there to notice of you try! So thank you :)
I love your enthusiasm for this movie
bruh no for sure i straight up almost wrote a paper in college about this EXACT concept
I love how you geek out to this movie and its music, I'm glad to know I'm not alone ahaha. I've always been fascinated by how the music in this film sounded, "Jack's Lament", especially the part where he's coming down from the hill, always gave me the chills. Love the fact that "Making Christmas" melody is in fact a Dies Irae, I'm committed to this music theory rant - says a music student who failed terribly at composition xD
Or do a video on the music in Over the Garden Wall
Kelly Randall I read that as Olive Garden and it really messed me up😂
THIS IS SO BRILLIANT!!! Wow this is so wonderful, it makes me love this movie that much more. You're COMPLETELY RIGHT. In EVERY WAY. Thank you so much for sharing your analysis, I'm sure the creators of the film would be honored to know that someone understood the FULL depth of what they tried to convey, and released it in such a way that others can easily understand. Your video is excellently paced and well explained too!!! I was hooked the whole way!
Even if Elfman wrote the notes that way because it sounded good, I think there is still an argument to that unconscious narrative that drives all artists to compose, write, or paint in a way we can all recognize as circular and complete. (Your videos get my brain buzzing, thank you so much for them. As someone who knows shit all about a musical theory, I wish you would talk slower because it i feel like I'm barely holding on to a wayward train!! If your afraid musical theory will be too dry or borign if you slow down, i think your wrong ;) We will stay with you.
Just found this. Ready to put on my tin foil hat and add to this. So I think you are right but I'll take it a step further. Jack is only able to sing in major in Christmastown and when he tries to explain this to the town that Phyrgian Stank is the best way he can try and get the members of Halloweentown to understand the concept of Christmas as best as he can. We see Sally and Jack singing in Phyrgian Scales because they have the ability to think outside of their own experiences. Jack wants something more, Sally is an empath and psychic. Everyone else in the town is content with staying with the status quo. When it starts to snow in Halloween town, the people of Halloweentown finally experience a world outside of what they know which allows them the ability to sing in a major scale/feel something different.
I see Nightmare Before Christmas in the thumbnail
*instantly clicks and likes*
Nightmare was my love for the first six years of my life. I haven’t changed ;A;
Love the video by the way!!
"Phrygian" is also the same as major "Ionian", and minor "aeolian " these are the harmonized modes of a Major Scale. It;s the third of the scale. Super clever composition with out having to do the impossible.
Well. "Death of the author". No matter what Danny Elfman intended, it's there, and it's awesome.
I just found your channel this month. The Nightmare Before Christmas is one of my family's favorite movies, too. Thank you for this analysis, especially the part about Jack's personal journey/growth. For me, the love story between him and Sally always seemed a little tacked on but if the entire movie is actually about Jack finding someone that truly understands him and finding that is his true source of happiness, it ties everything together nicely.
As The Pumpkin King, Jack has the adoration and admiration of everyone in town but notice that nobody seems to connect with him personally. The admiration is based on his celebrity, not who he is as an individual. That also explains why he's so fed up with his life. I used to think he was just spoiled, so used to being treated like royalty that life had become boring to him. In reality, there was something very important missing in his life and he didn't even realize it.
Sally is a new addition to the town, having been created by the mad scientist maybe just a few years before the events of the movie. So, it makes sense that they hadn't become a couple yet. Jack's been around for a very long time but Sally didn't even exist until recently. Spending time with her made him realize what he was missing in his life - a real connection.
When you start digging deeper into the music theory of Sally’s Song, it only gets even cooler. The “stank note” you are referring to is actually a full modulation in the orchestra to the major key up one half step. The following melodic line she sings has major tonality going up, but in the decent, Elfman adds accidentals leading to a modulation back to the original minor key. These overlapping major and minor scales create the Phrygian sound that you hear, which holds the tension between the two keys. But immediately after the resolution back down, the melody jumps up to the relative major key and the orchestra eventually follows. The song continues in the major key long enough to release the tension, but after a few descending lines, it stumbles back down to the minor key with just 4 descending notes and gets enforced by the repetitive final line (except for the very end with the Picardy third). So basically, the entire struggle shown throughout the movie between Halloween and Christmas, Minor and Major, and what happens when you combine the two worlds, is all displayed in just one verse of Sally’s Song. And it all ends with character development you can hear. Danny Elfman is an absolute genius.
10:03 was so satisfying, cut the music open. This video was great, as a child I watched this movie so many times I lost count, I would rewind my favorite parts. As an adult I found the soundtrack at a market (back then this movie wasn't so popular, I guess it was because it wasn't promoted by Disney? I remember the Touchstone logo at the beginning of my cassette version) and I pretty much know all the songs and the poems by heart. So I 200% enjoyed this video, thank you so much for sharing it!
I'VE LOVED THIS MOVIE MY WHOLE LIFE
This makes me love it EVEN MORE
(happy birthday!)
Omgoodness I was NOT disappointed, I am so glad to have found your video, whether true or not thank you for giving yet more reasons to love this film!!!!!!!!!!! YES!
Okay not to mention when Sally says "Jack, I know how you feel," it plays a little of sally's song!
Hahah, great video. The Nightmare Before Christmas is honestly my favorite film of all time.
This is fantastic. I’ve also been having my own conspiracy theory that the unprepared modulations in a lot of the songs is a characterization of how frenetic and kooky the characters are. The only one whose song doesn’t modulate at all is sally. And santa says she’s the only one with any sense.
Your channel is literally my favorite. Please never stop making videos.
Great find! You identified the spiritual-emotional motivation in the music. I think it wouldn't be laughable to professional analysts at all!
1 This is not a conspiracy theory. It has nothing to do with 2 or more people making an agreement or being in agreement in secret or immorally.
2 This is an excellent analysis. It's perfectly logical but not a criminal conspiracy.
I'm so glad I found your channel. You are a delight to listen to
This is the cutest movie theory I've ever heard ;-;
No one is saying so you need to know, these are SMART...the visuals, the banter, the nod to more educated viewers while still explaining concepts step by step...you have excellent, interesting videos, really. PBS eat your heart out.
MY DAD HAS THE SAME BIRTHDAY AS YOU. I don’t know why that’s so exciting.
i saw this for the first time in high school and i thought it was the most profound thing ive ever heard in my life. now im working on my music degree and im still with u on this. I need to make my friends watch this so we can talk about it without having to simplify our vocabulary lmao
Sweet video. But why not just ask Mr. Elfman himself?
Also happy b-day!
Just earned my subscription with your devotion to this movie. Really enjoyed this video, thank you for producing it.
There is no question that these connections are present. You gave evidence of that. The only question is whether these were conscious or sub-conscious decisions by the composer. It is the task of music theory to only answer the former question not the later. Great video.
YOU ARE SERIOUSLY AMAZING AND I LOVE THIS VIDEO SO MUCH!
happy late birthday my dude
I love this video so much. The passion that you have for analysis is amazing, and the comedy has really helped me get through some tough times. Keep doing what you like, dude, because chances are, you're going to make other people happy while doing it.
Not a conspiracy theory at all, just incredible scoring
This was an amazing video!
Also referring to the minor second in the phrygian mode as "phrygian stank" is so awesome I'm def gonna steal that.
Thanks for the stellar content!
eh, he's back!
You've changed the way a watch movies, thank you.
I WAS THINKING ABOUT THE MAJOR/MINOR CHRISTMAS/HALLOWEEN THING EARLIER WHEN I WAS LISTENING TO THE SOUNDTRACK AND IM SO GLAD I WASNT THE ONLY ONE THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR CONFIRMING THIS OMG
It sounds like Elfman intended all of this, he is an incredible composer and it strikes me as less of a theory and more of a subliminal fact the music reflects on the characters emotional state
This video made my start learning the piano again, as a way to pass quarantine.
So thanks for that x
*YEAH, E MINOR!*
I love it, dude. Great stuff. Very enjoyable content.
I would love to hear what you think of Lord of the Rings Soundtrack
I love the fact that you wrapped it up with instances that contradict your thesis. It's be cool if more people did that. Especially with how many film analysis videos there have been in the last 5 years, and they all present every film like the director had complete control of every tiny detail and are complete geniuses. But, the reality is, filming is chaotic, there's a million things that go wrong, they're contending with schedules and they occasionally film off gut. Some are meticulous and geniuses, some aren't but are very talented. I'd love to see more analysis that admitted it. That while, most of it might be thought out and planned, not all of it is and that's okay.
Nobody:
Sideways: D I E S I R A E
Yooooooo happy bday Mr sideways.
Huh, weird, just decided to watch this one today. Coincidences
My school's choir we had to sing dies irae it was pretty lit
I love all of this and I'm glad I'm not the only one who obsessed over this movie lol. I totally appreciate that you're dissecting the plot through music theory, so brilliant because it IS like an operetta with a clear place for music to help move the story. I always thought of Sally's special "understanding" of Jack's feelings was a combination of things, 1) wanting to be something more than you are (she doesn't want her whole worth to be her existence as finkelstein's doll) and 2) having an instinct for recognizing beauty (she makes a butterfly potion for Jack while he "experiments" with Christmas stuff, etc). Thank you for posting, keep it up!
In other news, your videos are one of the first things I showed my boyfriend when we first started talking and I can't help but think that they gave a good segue to talk reallllly talking sooooooooooooooooo if we get married then maybe you're partly to blame.
That sounds pretty cool lol :P
better invite him
Useless update: We broke up 😂 Still love this channel tho.
Aw I was excited about this specific comment lol
@@WarlikeWifee oh nooooo😭
Most music theories I've heard are extremely confusing, and don't make any sense. THIS right here makes PERFECT sense, and I really like the connections you've made. Good job.
Nice video. I don't understand it.
Everyone's first reaction to a musical analysis.
I watched every video on this channel, but this one is just above me. I also didn't watch the movie, so I don't have any context.
I'm curious as to what you don't understand.
There's zero music theory in this video other than there is a generic 'happy' scale, and a 'sad' one - then another scale that is one note different to the sad one.
He uses the sad scale for the sad music, he uses the happy scale for the happy music, and he uses this other scale to contrast the sad one without being happy.
@@nuberiffic yeah that everyone gets df. Just when he used examples of that stank scale thing some don't get
@@JohnMacclintoc Thats not true some get it some don't. Everyone learns and understand things differently than others :))
I'm absolutely addicted to these videos, as a music fan but not student. I am also not a Disney/musical fan, but these commentary videos are fantastic either way
I don't even play anything or listen to music frequently I just love this channel lmao
So I came to this channel after OSP mentioned you when Red brought up the Dias Irae leitmotif, and I scrolled through your most recent videos, saw this, and now I'm subscribed. I thought I couldn't love this movie any more, and now I do.
Hey, this comment is so late, but I'm also born around Halloween and watch this almost every year for my birthday and I studied narrative analysis. Your musical analysis perfectly fits the story. Jack is fascinated by and obsessed with Christmas throughout the film, but if you look specifically at the things he loves about Christmas Town, it's that the citizens all get along, children are safely protected by their parents, there are couples kissing, etc: all of these forms of affection and love surround him there, but you can't see any of that in Halloween Town. If the story has subplots, the only two would be Sally's plot (i.e. having been made as a servant/implied wife to a man, not having choices or love) and "Oogie's boys" (i.e. Locke, Shock, & Barrel choosing to help Jack, but ultimately defecting back to Oogie out of fear - really listen to how much they emphasize how scary Oogie is). Both subplots deal with loveless perversions of different types of relationships Jack craves: romantic and parental/familial. In the original poem, Jack goes on to have a few skeleton kids, which always struck me as hugely irrelevant until I noticed this theming. All along, what Jack really craves is love, understanding, and a deep interpersonal connection with someone.
I love this theory a lot, especially since this is absolutely my favorite movie above all. I really love it when music theory that goes deeper than the surface is used to create things like this. It's such an incredible way to analyze a movie. In the E Phrygian, the scale contains the same notes as C major, but it starts on the 3rd (or Mi) of the scale. So it simply revolves around a different degree of the scale, while leaving full potential of being in major. I really appreciate this theory and it helps me see the movie in another light. Soundtracks are really incredible. Fantastic work!