What If Thorin Oakenshield Had Survived The Hobbit? | Middle-Earth Lore
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- Опубліковано 26 чер 2024
- Thorin Oakenshield was a great leader of the Dwarven race, but sadly he did not make it past the mission to reclaim Erebor from Smaug in The Hobbit. But what if he did? What if Thorin survived?
We look at what this may have meant and what it may have changed today!
Did you miss how Gimli didn't know about Moria video? Check it here - • Why Didn't Gimli Know ...
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Timecodes:
00:00 - Intro
02:50 - Thorin’s Background and Development
05:16 - What Might Have Gone Different?
10:55 - Conclusion.
12:38 - QotD & Thank you’s.
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Thumbnail Art:
Thorin Oakenshield - Tira-Owl
Art in order of first appearance:
The Hobbit Trilogy - New Line Cinema
Thorin Oakenshield ('Speedpaint') - FrerinHagsolb
Thorin Oakenshield - Aloesowsa
Dwarves - Windmaker
Moria - Pavasara-Dvesma
Balin We Will See It Done - InDeepBlue
The Council of Elrond - Mysilvergreen
Battle of Azanulbizar - x-Celebril-x
Thorin Oakenshield - x-Celebril-x
Thrain the Second, son of Thror - Fabio Leone
Thror Concept Art - WetaWorkshop
Thorin and the Blue Mountains - megatruth
Bridge of Khazad-dum - CKGoksoy
Thrain - Concept-Art-House
Dol Guldur - TitusLunter
Gandalf - Fabio Leone
Thorin sketch - Sceith-A
Thorin - Concept-Art-House
Tolkien - Roger Magrini
Thorin Oakenshield - Dat Phan
The Battle of the Five Armies - Ozakuya
Thorin and Roac - BrokenMachine86
Thorin Oakenshield - grzegoszwu
Norse Mythology - MarcSimonetti
The Last Stand of Thorin Oakenshield - Lucas Graciano
Gandalf - Dan Pilla
King - lights510
Dain Ironfoot - Samarskiy
Rivendell - Ivan Cavini
Thorin Prince of Erebor - DarqueJackal
Legolas and Gimli - Sebastian Giacobino
Moria Mines Theme - coccoluto
Across Middle-Earth - Khazad-Dum - ralphdamiani
Thorin Oakenshield - Tira-Owl
The Aftermath - Fabio Leone
The King Under The Mountain - John Howe
Hobbit Thorin and Bilbo - daekazu
One King to Another - JustaBlink
Dain Ironfoot - CK Goksoy
Thorin Moria Battle Concept Art - WetaWorkshop
Thorin Oakenshield - NaSyu
Thorin - narrator366
Thorin, King Under the Mountain - gravity-zero
Thorin - frene
We Will Get It Back - Charles Burggraf
Thorin and the Raven - SeraphimCrystal
Thorin Oakenshield - TurnerMohan
Thorin Oakenshield - Maelstromarts
King under the Mountain - x-celebril-x
Middle earth - Klaradox
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#LordoftheRings #Thorin #ThorinOakenshield - Розваги
Richard Armitage was great as Thorin in the films. Definitely did the character justice.
They should have given him a longer beard, him and Fili and Kili
If he survived then he would've been invited to second breakfast :*(
What about elevensies?
@@Stark3Mad Luncheon?
@@vindertechboy9195 Afternoon tea?
@@Stark3Mad DInner?
@@vaingloriant Supper?
King Thorin was the ARAGORN to the Dwarvens
If Thorin lived, then I could see Thorin hanging out with Bilbo as they plant trees and read books together. In fact, Thorin would bring his company to visit Bilbo as well.
Ngl a meeting between Aragorn and Thorin in Rivendell would have been an interesting scene.
Thorin was, hands down, the most smokin hot dwarf in any film ever.
If Thorin survived Erebor would have run out of L’oréal shampoo.
An interesting further question, what if Fili and Kili had also survived? If that were the case, it would potentially change a few things. Dain, of course, would never have become king, as Fili would have been next in line to succeed Thorin. One or both of them may have ended up joining the fellowship instead of Gimli, particularly if, as you suggested, Thorin took a more 'hands-on' approach to things than Dain would have.
That is definitely an interesting thing to think about 🤔😁
I feel like this would have been likely in this scenario because if I’m remembering correctly I think they both fell defending thorin when he was mortally wounded
What about Fili, Theodred and Elendur are survived change the Middle Earth
Very good point duffdawg64
As I watched, I was thinking exactly the same thing!
If Thoron had survived, Bilbo would have been richer than most kings. Thorn would have made the Hobbit take his rightful share of the treasure. His king's pride would have accepted no less.
If Thorin lived longer, Balin might have delayed going to Moria, and while it's unlikely he would have delayed long enough for there to still be a remnant of dwarves in Moria, It's possible the pool at the west gate would have been higher.
Why would the pool be higher?
@@forfun6273 The reason the pool had been high when Oín tried to escape Moria via the west gate was that the Orcs had dammed up the outlets to cause it to rise and block that route. If Balin is delayed in going to Moria, then the damming happens later and enough of the dam might still have been in place when the Fellowship tries to enter via the west gate to have the pool be higher.
@@ernestcline2868 ah ok. I knew it was high but I didn’t know the specific reason for it being high. I thought it was just bad luck.
Make a video about what if Fili and Kili survived The Hobbit.
If Thorin had been king when the messenger from Mordor came looking for Bilbo, Thorin wouldn't have asked for time to think. He would've immediately shot the offer down and possibly killed the messenger on the spot, to protect his friend. But he still would've sent Gloin (and probably Gimli) to warn Bilbo.
I'd say he'll go there along with Gloin and Gimli, just to find out what exactly is going on. Thorin, I doubt, would want a repeat of the Battle of the Five Armies where the forces of Sauron caught them completely off-guard.
The forces of sauron wasn't at the battle of five armies; and the messenger of mordor was a ringwraith and Thorin could not have killed it.
Warning, this is long!
Dwalin lived to be 340! Why couldn't Thorin live that long as kings tent to live longer that more distant kin, and Dwalin was of the House of Durin.
Thorin would have invited the messenger inside so they could talk and he would have had him captured and sent Gloin and some others to Rivendell and Legolas would see them and escort them through the forest and go to Rivendell to see it. One of the Beornings would escort them over the mountain pass, and hearing that Bilbo was in trouble would go with them to Rivendell. Bilbo would say the ring was with Frodo in The Shire. Gloin would lead the dwarves to Bag End and tell Frodo and Sam that Bilbo was sending for him at once and they would pack quickly and tell Gaffer that they were leaving for a while, but would be back and to make sure Frodo's things are safe.
When Frodo and Sam arrived Gloin and Bilbo would explain everything and Elrond would send for Aragorn and Gloin would send the other dwarves back to inform Thorin of what was going on, but some would stay. Gandalf would arrive the same day as Aragorn, as he went to see Frodo and learnt that Bilbo had sent for him at once.
Once everyone knew what was going on Gloin and the dwarves would agree to join the new Fellowship, as would Legolas, the Beorning, Aragorn, Gandalf, Sam and Frodo. Elrond had already sent word to Saruman who had set off to Rivendell before the Fellowship left, and Saruman met them in Hollin, which was not what he wanted, so he asked them to come back to Isengard where they could talk, but Aragorn and Gloin said they should talk now so to save wasting time. Saruman said such talk in the open was dangerous, but Gloin said time wasting was dangerous. Gandalf began to notice that Saruman was getting cross with Gloin as he was using logic and he soon realised that Saruman had his own plans! That night he spoke to the others and Gloin killed Saruman at once!
Prince Theodred does not die!
They get to Rohan and are sent away, and Aragorn says they saw Saruman's dead body on the road. They go to Minas Tirith and say they know how to destroy Sauron and need to get into Mordor and are joined by four guards. In Ithilien they are joined by five rangers and catch Gollum and Frodo decides to trust him and Gollum leads them to Cirith Ungol and says he will guide them through. Sam and Gloin stay with Frodo. At the same time Sauron attacks Osgiliath and after escaping Gollum and the spider, they come to a largely empty Mordor. Legolas kills some orcs and they wear their clothes as costumes and manage to reach Mount Doom, but are attacked by one hundred orcs and all save Sam, Gandalf, Gloin and Frodo attack the orcs as they run up to destroy the One Ring, but in the final moment Frodo can't destroy the Ring so Gloin runs forward, knocks Frodo out and jumps off the end! Sam picks up Frodo and drags him to the entrance and the orcs Gandalf was fighting run off and Gandalf carried Frodo as they ran, but were saved by Radagast and the eagls who said the others were dead! Sauron is gone! Peace is restored to Middle-Earth! Prince Theodred lives! The Shire is not ruined!
The king does not return!
The one sad thing in this timeline! Arwen leaves for Valinor at once.
The Keepers of the Three Rings leave Middle-Earth almost at once.
Bilbo returns to Bag End for two years before leaving for Valinor with Frodo.
The Fourth Age of Middle-Earth begins!
If Erebor or the kingdom of Dale was attacked Thorin would lead the attack and would die like Dain II did in the canon timeline.
Dáin II Ironfoot was indeed a great king, played an important role in the Lord of the Rings at the Battle of Dale, the decisive battle in the northern theater of the War of the Ring.
If nothing else I would love for him to go to the undying lands with Bilbo.
I suspect Balin would not have gone to Moria if Thorin were alive. It's very possible that Dain's politics were vastly different than Thorin's and an Erebor without Thorin was what prompted Balin to take up such an endeavor. He would have had a lot of time to think on the walk back to Blue Mountains to summon the Durinfolk and maybe came to the realization that Dain, who did not come to Thorin's initial call, was not his king. Balin was the second oldest after all and I cannot imagine after having such a difficult victory reclaiming Lonely Mountain where he was born, he would truly wish to leave if his king were alive. I honestly can't imagine Thorin taking up that task either. The rebuilding and securing of Erebor would have been more critical and by the time it was accomplished he would have been a very old Dwarf indeed.
However, if his nephews survived as well, Thorin might have sent one of them to lead a group in reclaiming Khazad-dum once Erebor's restoration was well underway. Or he might have foolishly sent both. I never understood why he took both of his potential heirs to Lonely Mountain. Certainly they were adults and old enough to decide for themselves and he needed every Dwarf he could get, but there should have been some consideration for the future of the Dwarves they left in the Blue Mountains should they not succeed in their quest. He could have ordered one to remain behind. But had they lived and he sent one or both of them, it is likely Gimli would have accompanied them to Moria in search of his own adventure and likely wanting to join his older cousins whom he no doubt must have admired. And should those three have gone, they might have inspired many of the younger Dwarves and the Durinfolk would have lost most of an entire generation in Khazad-dum.
If you ask me, then Dain would still be leading dwarves in the east. Thus there would be two strong dwarven centers there, which would make it most unlikely THAT region would have been attacked in the LOTR wars. Thus Sauron would have more men in the south, which might have led to their strike in Rohan instead. So, no rohirrim riding to help, so Sauron wins...
Sauron would still have made War in the North. In your scenario the strength of the Dwarves would be divided, making an attack on Dale even more likely.
Just looking at 6000 years of how Sauron wages war.
I think the biggest what if, is does Dain stay as lord over the Iron Hills, whit him potentially staying there both the Iron Hills and Lonely Mountain would have grown and might have been mightier during the War of The Ring
Given that Thorin Oakenshield had kept himself in decent physical health it is possible that he could have lived longer than a Dwarf that choose to live a less active lifestyle.
Thorin seems to have developed a specific lifestyle which did not include sitting on a throne and eating his weight in food daily.
Thorin seems to be more of the warrior Dwarf. He would likely be in the mines with the miners or inspecting his troops or training with his weapons as king. All of which are activities that would have contributed to his health.
The longest living Dwarf was Dwalin who lived to become 340 years old.
So the lifespan of a dwarf depends on the dwarf. Just like some humans in real life reach the more than 100 years old. While the average human life expectancy is 72.6 years globally.
This means Thorin could have still been around into his early 300's. And despite the passage of time having it's effects on him. He could have still been a capable king. Though he wouldn't have been going on the quest in the fellowship of the ring himself.
Gimli wasn't in Thorin's company nor at the battle of the five armies because at 62 Gimli was seen as too young for the fight.
Yeah when your species lives to be over 200 years old you kind of see your 62 years old son as a child.
I think he would still be alive and well since people of importance seem to get long lives I feel that he would probably die in the War Of The Ring or shortly after from old age most likely after reclaiming Moria which would be an interesting twist. The one thing I think would have happened is he would have visited the Shire on Bilbo's 111th birthday.
I never read the Hobbit, only saw the films. But I remember leaving the film saying his death, an the boy's for that matter...didn't make any sense to me. Everything in the films made him out to be this near perfect warrior, a skilled tactician and strategist, and he was able to overcome all problems no matter what. And then...that. It didn't make any sense and felt too forced to me. I mean his choice of battlefield, his lack of ability to defeat one Orc when he took down 10x that before him without breaking a sweat, the fact that he fell for the old "I dead, trust me" gag.....seriously? The fact the Orc wasn't dead in the first place and could do what he did. It's all too forced for me. I am just saying Thorin shouldn't have died.
Don't you think if Thorin survives he eventually gets married at some point? Once he reclaims the lonely mountain it seems like there would be a definite motivation to have his own heir.
Judging by the way he’s looking at Bilbo, I think I know who his consort would be…
Here´s a what if.
What if Dáin Ironfoot hadn´t seen Durins bane during the Battle of Azanulbizar.
And for all intense and purpose the mines of moria had seemed liberated from the orks.
What then?
Would the dwarves have moved in and what would have happened then?
If he survived I'm sure 8 track tapes might have been invented
Thanks m8tty, I laughed out loud reading your post.
Very nice video! Maybe a "What if Gandalf realized Bilbo had the One Ring earlier" or "What if Saruman never turned evil"
I'd like to know how Thorin would react to learning that Sauron had imprisoned his father that led to his death.... Could that have delayed the Quest of Erebor to take part in the Battle of Dul Guldor? It's pretty personal for him.
If he *did* delay the quest for Erebor to save his father, it would have delayed the quest for an entire year, at the least. Getting into the mountain had a time limit - Durin's Day. Missing that day would mean waiting until the next year to try again.
They'd have fo trek all the way back home and prepare for yet another risky journey of retracing their year old steps. But they absolutely don't want to do that because they believe the dragon might be dead, and if the dragon is dead then that means Erebor (and its treasures) are vulnerable to thieves. They don't want to risk another Moria situation.
So, if Thorin *did* choose his father over Erebor, there's potential that it would cause more problems than good...
If he had lived to reclaim Moria, him and his folk would still have been f*cked up by Durin's Bane
Thank you for sharing this, we can say there would be a lot of intriguing theories of 'what if' Thorin lived and what would shape the upcoming LoTR.
And I wonder if you could do the 'what if' Fili lived/survived and becomes King and how this would shape the future before the events of LoTR, or what if neither Fili nor Thorin lived/survived, and Kili somehow survived the Battle of Five Armies, would he be King Under the Mountain and how this would shape the events before LOTR? I hope that you can do these next.
Great video
Great video💪next time, what if fili and kili survived ?..❤️❤️
Interesting fanon, thanks for sharing.
If Thorin survived, I hear he had some business to settle with Dracula 😂
What if Thorin was givin the Arkenstone by Bilbo? Would he ever have escaped his dragon sickness and fight?
@The Broken Sword interesting theory. It kinda sounds similar to the one made by @Men of the west if anyone hadn’t heard that one I highly recommend it. Personally I always thought a theory on if Thorin and his nephews had lived would’ve been just as interesting.
What Thorin (or Fili/Kili) was still alive and was king when Sauran sent the Nazgul to parlay with Erebor? Could that exchange had gone differently if the Nazgul knew he was parlaying directly with a member of the company? Not that Thorin would willingly give Bilbo up, but maybe a better likelihood that the Nazgul attempt to torture it out of him. Then Sauron learns the location of The Shire almost a year earlier.
"Amazing updates coming soon", haven't they been saying that for over a year now?
IF some characters survived and change the Middle Earth
GILGALAD last king Noldor
Fili prince of Erebor
Theodred son of king Theoden
Elendur survived and take throne of Arnor
Anarion return Gondor and retake Ithilien
Had Thorin survived, his nephews Fili and Kili would have also survived. So one of them might have inherited as King under the Mountain instead of Dain Ironfoot.
Thorin could gather a big number of dwarves and retake Moria resulting in Gandalf remain grey, the fellowship never break who knows what else Sauron might have won are might have been destroyed even easier.
the real true question is.... what if the ring was forever lost and the elves had already left middle earth centuries after bilbo? did sauron actually need the ring at all? or is the ring just there to make it all go away in one pouff?! so to put it in simple words, the me of the west nuclear option.
Thorin might have still been alive and kicking at the time of the War of the Ring. Didn’t Dwalin live to be over 320?
Dwarves in Durin's Line tended to live longer than other dwarves. King Dain at 250 years old fought valiantly in the Battle of Dale standing over King Brand's body until the darkness fell.
As the child of a ringbearer (Thrain II), I wonder if any of the ring's powers to grant longevity could have been passed to him? I don't think I've ever seen analysis of what happens if a ringbearer has a child? The only possible examples are Elrond's children and Thrain II, and I'm not sure if either of them had possession of a ring of power before conceving children.
The dwarfs did not set out to retake Moria when they killed Azog it was only mentioned as an option after the victory. I dont see much changing if Thorin survived, Dain who seen the balrog could NOT stop Balin going to Moria so cant see Thorin doing it. So what would be different? Your realy stretching it thiiiiiiiin.
In front of a burning fire 😢I have a new radiator that’s good enough 😂
7:17
8:48
Fili and Kili would have to've died too to make Dain heir as - as Thorin's nephews - they were his primary heirs.
It was the deaths of three potential Kings, not one, that gave Dain the crown.
Do we know, then, other names that Tolkien considered for Gandalf?
2 mega thumbs up
Me:
Spoil the ending of The Hobbit without spoiling the ending of The Hobbit.
The title:
..so if something different happened, then something different would have happened
disagree with Thorin going to rivendeel ect. thorin really disliked the elves maybe even more so then the average dwarf
But he owes Elrond a favor after reading the moon-runes to find where the hidden entrance to Erebor was. He'd go there as a courtesy to the Elf who helped him enter his home. That, and the messenger from Mordor might have made him consider going to Rivendell to find out what exactly is going on.
Just in the movie. In the book he was fine with the elves, just a little distant.
dwarves do not like elves in the LOTR this was stated in the books aswell given that gimli was an exception with his friendschip with an elf. @@k-dogg9086
The amount of time he says “do not speak to me of…” made me really not like the character at all in the movie
Theres no real confusion with Thorin's name between the book and the films. Not like that guy who voiced Smaug......Benadryl Cucumberpatch !
An odd actor for sure at times.
Geez thanks for the spoiler 😂
😂😂 sorry 😂😂
If he had survived could he have had a son?
I wonder why he never married in the Blue Mountains.
Video 249
3rd
of course Thorin survived. and he ran off with Bilbo....
Man i love Tolkien but i was so god damn happy when Thorin died.
What an unbearable character to watch and listen😒
Good video thou🙏
Yeah, he was a jerk
What if you got an education and a real job.????
Haha, low blow there.
It's not so bad a channel as UA-cam uni goes.
Real job?
A job is a job and he does not a bad job at that so if it puts food on the table etc.
Blank the channel if you don't like his line of work. 😉😁
It will be amazing if you make a video about what would happen if azog's armies won battle of the five armies
What is Thorin found out that Bilbo had the ring? He would've killed him and taken it.