Winchester went down to Utah He was looking for a design to buy He was in a bind, the 1873 was way behind He was looking to make a deal When he came across a man Filing on a levergun frame and filing it hot And Winchester jumped up on a hickory stump and said, "Boy let me tell you what: I guess you didn´t know it, but I'm a gun maker too, And if you'd care to take a dare, I'll make a bet with you Now you make a pretty good levergun, Boy, but give Winchester his due I bet a mountain of cash against your gat 'Cause I think I'm better than you" The man said, "My name's John and it might be a sin, But I'll take your bet, you're gonna regret, 'Cause I'm the best there's ever been"
Even though it is a scaled down version, making a prototype in 2 weeks is still really impressive. When you consider the machining equipment they had in those days even more so.
The fact his biggest buyer routinely visited him offering large sums of money for even unusable patents shows that they valued Browning, and Browning knew that.
Maverick44 they eventually did though. Winchester’s biggest mistake. When browning made a pump action .22 he told Winchester he want royalties on every one sold. Browning ended up getting his deal with another manufacturer and that little gun became the most popular .22 in the world. Had Winchester taken that deal we would probably still have pump action .22 rifles to this day. Though it did free browning up for handgun market so we would probably never have the 1911 had Winchester taken the deal
"Well, I am the newest employee at this here Winchester company, anything I need to know before I start working here." "Well, you see, we have a company policy: When in doubt, throw a wad of cash as John Moses Browning." "Uhm... that sounds totally insane." "Indeed it does, do you want to know what the wierest part of it is?" "Heavens, it get's worse?" "It TOTALLY WORKS. We are doing GREAT." *Browning shows up, senior employee promply chucks a pack of dollar bills in his face, giving him a black eye. Sales increase.* "See?"
Since Ian started with the Henry Rifle a few days ago, I have been waiting for this one. May not be the best rifle ever made, but it's my favorite. Thanks Ian and keep up the excellent work.
The rifle arrived today and I dialed in the scope just a couple hours ago ua-cam.com/users/postUgkxQt2uORDRfFOVSrO4idv4B90ThT6EOnEL . I haven’t shot with a scope in probably 25 years. The X on the left was my target. (the shot almost in the bullseye on the right X was my father in laws first shot after I made adjustments) The two shots circled are my first 2 shots. Then I brought it down - shot once. Then brought it over to the left. From there zeroed it in to dead center. This all was from 25 yards out. Follow instructions carefully when mounting the scope. So far I'm very happy with the purchase.
They would sell them in Siam, They would sell them in Miam', They would sell them to the Brits, They would sell them where they eat grits, They would sell them overseas, They would sell them where they make cheese, They would sell them modified, They would sell them to a guide, They would sell them the world around, And still we see they do abound.
My grandfather ended up with an old 1892 Winchester in the 1920's because he was owed $20, that the man couldn't pay. I now have that gun and have researched it and it is first year of manufacture, 44/40 octagonal barrel and in excellent condition. Still shoots very well too. Love Grandpa's old gun.
@@joevalicenti2722 Not a Carbine. 24" barrel and holds 13 rounds. Each round is a little over 1.5" and I would have a hard time believing you could get more than 10 rounds in a carbine as that would be over 4.5" into a barrel only 4 " longer.
@@R182video That's the issue. If you ask folks they say the 24" Rifle holds 12 but I also have documented proof that it holds and fires 13 from the magazine tube. Still trying to verify the Carbine.
@@R182video Found the answer! Per The history of Winchester firearms, 1866-1966 Hardcover - January 1, 1966 by George R Watrous (Author) the Winchester Model 1892 in caliber .44-40 magazine capacities are as follows: Standard 24" Rifle - 13 Standard 20" Carbine - 11
Iconic rifle and a great backstory. I'm pretty sure JMB had the prototype nearly done or he would not have made that bet. He was probably just figuring out a few final dimensions. It would have been logical at the time to downsize the 86 to the shorter cartridges, since many people preferred them and the 73 had been so popular. Great video as always. Thank you
I love these series detailing a specific type of guns development, Ian. Definitely keep up the good work Are you gonna do a video at the end detailing the changes made to the current reproductions?
I have a usable M92 carbine clone. Great in thick woods. Whenever you see a picture of John Wayne with a rifle it was a M92 carbine. He was very particular I have heard to use the same gear in every movie right down to his vest. Those props were reserved for him. There was a big sweat on a wardrobe department one time when they couldn't find his vest. Armorer wasn't as dumb. He knew exactly what Wayne wanted and had it there.
Steyr guns can get on forgotten weapons even when still in production due to Steyr's ingenious marketing program: If we make good guns then people will buy lots of them, right? And if we make them good enough, we don't need to waste money on advertising!
A few years later Winchester severed its relationship with JMB...declaring that nothing new could possibly be invented by him...JMB went to Belgium and continued to prove Winchester wrong until his death in 1926...
Thank you for all the information I just gleaned from your video. I have a model 1892, a family heirloom that was handed to me by my dad. I have no idea where or when he got it but if came into the family via him. Mine is chambered in 3220, which is expensive as gold to buy but I still love this gun.
Hello Ian, You comment that the 44 WCF caliber configuration makes up 80% of the total Model 1892 production. I can assure you that this is far from being correct. In an effort to answer jsut these sort of questions precisely I have been conducting a research survey of the Model 1892 rifles for over 6 years now and have cataloged just over 10,200 individual rifles. Based on this data set it is apparent that the 44 WCF in fact makes up approximately 22% of the total number of rifles sampled. It would be almost impossible that the other three caliber choices are dramatically over represented in the market place to skew the numbers that dramatically. Sincerely Michael
Mr. McCollum, you and your channel are in a class by yourself! About the '92's: I learned some years ago that the 1892 was John Wayne's favorite-- but I don't recall why. Personally, Winchesters (other than the '94) have always been out of my reach financially, and frankly I have always preferred the Marlin 336 (it just FITS me).
Hi Ian, at what point did the Winchester rifle designs change to accept smokeless powder cartridges? I realize smoke less powder existed at the time of the 1892s development. Were early models black powder and later ones smokeless?
Basically yes (it depends on what you mean by model). Later versions of this rifle, especially in the "varmint" calibers all used smokeless loads. The action was strong enough so later ammunition used smokeless powder. There was even a smokeless powder designated "Bulk" which could (at least theoretically) be loaded volume for volume into black powder cases. The pressure curves weren't identical, however, so there was some risk involved when using it in older guns. There was also some tradition involved in cartridge nomenclature, where the first number was caliber, the second the weight of the charge of black powder, and the third (if used) was the bullet weight. The 30 30 Winchester kept the designation even though it was a smokeless design from the beginning. There was even the 32 Winchester special, a smokeless powder cartridge that was designed to be reloaded with black powder if the shooter desired.
smokeless powder cartridges are designed to higher pressures, but black powder cartridges are still loaded to lower pressures, even with smokeless in factory loadings.
Thanks for this series. Very interesting, especially since I grew up with the Cowboy movies and TV shows of the '50's and '60's and the Winchester was pretty much an icon.
My favorite. The 1892 is a strong action, can take modern magnum calibers. Winchester offered a load "WHV" for "Winchester High Velocity" cartridges that out performed 357 / 44 Mag. Too dangerous because the load cold destroy the 1873 Winchester rifle. I have a FMOBR 92 in 38-40, plus a repo Rossi 92 in 357 Mag. Ian didn't mention that the 92 action is smooth as butter, so fine.
Ian when did they get rid of the safety on the loading lever? what did they replace it with? is there a half cock notch or something. I know you mentioned an out of battery safety is that it?
The loop lever gimmick was first used by John Wayne in the 1939 John Ford movie "Stagecoach" Reportedly, it was cooked up by stuntman Yakima Canute, Ford and Wayne as a memorable introduction for Wayne's character in the movie. He's stranded in the desert after his horse went down. He hails the coach by spin cocking the rifle. Even though Wayne was over 6 feet tall, they still had to cut the barrel down to clear his armpit for the spin. He used it in numerous movies over the years like Rio Bravo and even in the final shoot out of True Grit. Of course the model 92 hadn't been invented until decades after the time frame of most Hollywood westerns, but they were cheap and plentiful at the time, so they were used from the 30's and on until Italian replicas began to appear in the 1970's
Enjoying this series, but the Winchester story is fairly well known. Please do a series on the Marlin lever guns. All I really know is 1894, 1895, and 1893 (which I've rarely seen). No idea where the 336 and some of the others fit in.
I know you've already dedicated a video to it, but are you going to make a new one for the 1895? It's my favorite of the line, and sorely under-appreciated.
Speaking of Hollywood uses, '92s played '73s in a lot of classic Westerns set before 1892, because they were sturdier and also cheaper for prop departments to acquire (since still in production when those Westerns were being made).
Point of curiosity. A friend of mine with a winchester collection has a 92 with the half tube chambered in 25-20 and it was issued to a British armed merchant shipping crew to fend off against Uboats in ww1
I seem to recall reading that there was a lot of hoopla about how much stronger the 92 was than the 1873 because of the vertical locking lugs. One of the gunsmith/writers of the time (P.O. ACKLEY?) proved this wasn't so by removing the lugs and firing it without incident.
The '73 was handling handgun cartridges just fine, the lugs were a big help when using rifle rounds (thus the '86). Putting the same system into the '92 was mere overbuild. Kind of like installing duallys into a station wagon: sure, they may have a place and purpose in a heavy-duty pickup, but on a _station wagon?_ Not so much.
Awesome! I learned a lot about a gun I own but didn't know much about. Interesting thing here, mine is marked "Model 1892 Winchester Trade Mark Reg. in U.S. Pat. Off." so it's a mix between the two you have here. Im assuming this is in between switching from 1892 to Model 92. Serial Number on mine is 504xxx. Must be middle of the batch. Thanks for the info!
I have a Winchester 1892 Ser # 32XXX. Looking at Winchester Dates of Mfg. it was made in 1893. What is your thought on firing this old gun? I have some modern smokeless cartridges 38-40. Thank you.
If your dating is correct then Blackpowder only. I believe that an 1895 manufacture date is generally accepted as the ealiest that you can expect guns to be proofed for smokeless but I have never seen any factory sourced documents to prove it. For my own guns I use 1900 as the cut off especially with ones not made by mainstream manufacturers. Had an acquaintance with a BEAUTIFUL 1875 Remmy, fantastic condition dated to 1894. He wouldn't heed the warnings and after about 3 cylinders full of factory 44 40 ammo the cylinder cracked. Luckily it stayed together and no one was hurt but a lot of money leaked out of the gun at that moment. Also, there was a story circulating around the cowboy action crowd about 25 years ago concerning someone insisting on shooting smokeless out of a clearly presmokless Win 73. When the gun came apart the little cross pin, that holds the old style one piece firing pin into the bolt, sheared sending the firing pin backwards through his safety glasses into his eye. I might want to avoid that scenerio if possible. Good luck!
I know an elderly chap with a rifle chambered in .22 WRF. Is there a video on this calibre in the vault? If not, I sure would like to see one. I'm not sure what model his is other than it's a lever gun with an octagon bbl. < I think. I just got a quick peek years ago.
I have a model 1892 in 38-40. Serial #168. It has NEVER had a round fired through it.............. Belonged to my wife's great uncle who was an illustrator back in the day.
The lever on a 15 1/2 inch barreled Winchester 92 was modified by famed stunt man Yakima Canutt for his friend John Wayne to use in the movie Stagecoach. I think that was the first film use of the large loop Winchester 92
The gun that didn’t win the West, was hardly even present, yet dominates every movie or tv series on the West. To some degree, an after effect of Stagecoach combined with the fact that you have a handy carbine that fires 5 in 1 blanks. You would be surprised at the number of gun owners who believe they are seeing a Model 1894 and don’t even know the 92 existed!
4 роки тому
Have a 92 serial 343,### circa 1906 with a Lyman (I think that's the name) flip up rear sight, no buck horn sight but the dove tail to mount one is in the barrel...is that an original option?
Mine loooks like it hex barrel nickel rec,but short mag tube right at the end of fore end also peep sight says 94 on it but what model its also in 30wcf so any ideas
I own a Sear-Roebuck Ted Williams Model 100 chambered in .30-.30. I believe its from the 1970s and is a direct copy of the Winchester Model 94. Am I correct? Also its my understanding that Winchester made the gun, but was sold under the Sears name. Great video man! I love lever guns! I also own a "Henry" .22 lever gun thats a tack driver!!
Brandon Cox - 1950's or early 60's i think. Store brand guns were cimmon back then. Sears, Western Auto, Montgomery Ward/Western Field, Sterling (hardware chain), etc. The big manufacturers were Winchester, Marlin, Stevens, and Mossberg. I think the gun will say somewhere in it who the manufacturer is. As far as i know, the Sears Ted Williams line was made by Winchester. I don't kbow if GCA '68 affected store branding of guns, but it seemed to peter out after that. But i do remember seeing a few Western Field shotguns in Montgomery Ward in the 80's
I started this series of videos saying "cool, I want a Henry." Every single video after I said "Well, maybe not that last gun, this one is the same thing but better! This is definitely the gun for me."Of course that changes once I watch the next video. It would be cool to add an original, reproduction, or off-brand (like a Rossi) 1892 to my collection.
I know that this is a old video but I just want to say....I LOVE lever action rifles, especially WINCHESTER!! Too bad they aren't made in the USA anymore. I'll keep my pre-64 model 94 until they pry it from my dead cold hands.
Actually both John M and his brother Matthew S Browning co-patented the 1886 and the 1892 as well as the 1887, 1890, 1893, 1897 and colt 1895 MG. Their half-brother Edmund would have made the prototypes as he was the best machinist.
The Rogue Wolf If anything, I would argue that a round barrel would have better harmonics than an octogonal barrel; leading to better accuracy. then again, for a lever action workhorse of a gun back then; it is more than likely octogonal vs round was more of astetic preference and manufacturing much over barrel harmonics.
Timothy Soen I believe you are right on the money. As I had previously stated before, it would not make any sense for one at the time to have a round barrel on a lever action due to the fact that that the proposed theory of barrel harmonics would be completely deemed useless for the tube magizine and the front barrel band holding the front sight and the front of the tube mag. It would then make sense that an polygonal/ octogonal barrel was the result of machining practices without a lathe AND creating a heat absorbing mass on the barrel, essentially; a precursor to bull/ heavy barrels.
I’ve watched this whole series trying to decide which one I want. I already have a 94. Now I’m stuck between 1883 and 1892 or perhaps an 1866. But the knowing there’s an 86 and an 89 I might want more power I just don’t know
I know, but I am still wondering what happend back then. I remember you replying to a comment on a video (where people were shooting in funny costumes) that you will make a video on the gun used by a guy in that video. Did something interfere?
On thinking about why Winchester would pay John M Browning to develop what is now the 92, it makes sense that Browning was their "R &D" branch, though not exactly in house. It was easier for Browning to create the prototype than to do it in house, it seems to me
8:05 ahh this flipping was also used in famous Terminator 2 scene where Schwarzernegger was riding with Harley Davidson and swing-cocked lever action shotgun Winchester M1887 to shoot the bad guy :D .
Some winchesters don't have the bottom tube all the way out to the muzzle but limited to within the stock, is there any specific name/model designation for those?
Found the answer! Per The history of Winchester firearms, 1866-1966 Hardcover - January 1, 1966 by George R Watrous (Author) the Winchester Model 1892 in caliber .44-40 magazine capacities are as follows: Standard 24" Rifle - 13 Standard 20" Carbine - 11
Winchester went down to Utah
He was looking for a design to buy
He was in a bind, the 1873 was way behind
He was looking to make a deal
When he came across a man
Filing on a levergun frame and filing it hot
And Winchester jumped up on a hickory stump and said,
"Boy let me tell you what:
I guess you didn´t know it, but I'm a gun maker too,
And if you'd care to take a dare,
I'll make a bet with you
Now you make a pretty good levergun,
Boy, but give Winchester his due
I bet a mountain of cash against your gat
'Cause I think I'm better than you"
The man said, "My name's John and it might be a sin,
But I'll take your bet, you're gonna regret,
'Cause I'm the best there's ever been"
Sean Heihn UA-cam comment of the day! Fine work Sir!
Reposted to the Facebook page. :)
That was my laugh for the day. Bravo!
Ha, that is great. I sung that in my head.
Excellent!
Even though it is a scaled down version, making a prototype in 2 weeks is still really impressive. When you consider the machining equipment they had in those days even more so.
John Brownimg deserves a video dedicated to him !
I somehow doubt that one video wold be enough.
One video would be enough. It'd be a damn long one though :D
Giloup92 yes!
I still watch the "J.M. Browning" Tales of the Gun episode from time to time. Love it.
By "video," you mean mini-series, right? :)
Browning was a pretty baller dude, haggling with Winchester like that. Then again, he's probably the only guy who could get away with it...
The fact his biggest buyer routinely visited him offering large sums of money for even unusable patents shows that they valued Browning, and Browning knew that.
Hard to say no to the best gun designer in history
Maverick44 they eventually did though. Winchester’s biggest mistake. When browning made a pump action .22 he told Winchester he want royalties on every one sold. Browning ended up getting his deal with another manufacturer and that little gun became the most popular .22 in the world. Had Winchester taken that deal we would probably still have pump action .22 rifles to this day. Though it did free browning up for handgun market so we would probably never have the 1911 had Winchester taken the deal
@@redneckwithajeep5001 which 22?
@@redneckwithajeep5001 that particular kerfuffle was over the auto 5 not the Remington 22 pump guns
browning really was a genius engineer, the US military still uses his designs today, a la the m2 hmg.
that serial number puts it's production date at late 1918
It's hard to find a modern pistol that doesn't have some ties to Browning.
holy shit "aint nobody got time for dat." that's a long ass comment, friend.
Taolan8472 Bwahaha nice! Hope he learned the error of his ways...
How do you mess up one of the simplest guns ever made?
i like how he admits mistakes amd corrects them. keep up the awsome videos.
"amd".... I see what you did there.
@@michaelbrooker1433 also "awsome"
"Well, I am the newest employee at this here Winchester company, anything I need to know before I start working here."
"Well, you see, we have a company policy: When in doubt, throw a wad of cash as John Moses Browning."
"Uhm... that sounds totally insane."
"Indeed it does, do you want to know what the wierest part of it is?"
"Heavens, it get's worse?"
"It TOTALLY WORKS. We are doing GREAT."
*Browning shows up, senior employee promply chucks a pack of dollar bills in his face, giving him a black eye. Sales increase.*
"See?"
Since Ian started with the Henry Rifle a few days ago, I have been waiting for this one. May not be the best rifle ever made, but it's my favorite.
Thanks Ian and keep up the excellent work.
The rifle arrived today and I dialed in the scope just a couple hours ago ua-cam.com/users/postUgkxQt2uORDRfFOVSrO4idv4B90ThT6EOnEL . I haven’t shot with a scope in probably 25 years. The X on the left was my target. (the shot almost in the bullseye on the right X was my father in laws first shot after I made adjustments) The two shots circled are my first 2 shots. Then I brought it down - shot once. Then brought it over to the left. From there zeroed it in to dead center. This all was from 25 yards out. Follow instructions carefully when mounting the scope. So far I'm very happy with the purchase.
Love this series, never knew the big loop lever was a modern add but it makes sense, it just made Chuck Conners and John Wayne look that much cooler!
Have a '92 Trapper. Love it, favorite of my lever guns. Nice and compact. That small receiver lends itself nicely to an overall short carbine.
They would sell them in Siam,
They would sell them in Miam',
They would sell them to the Brits,
They would sell them where they eat grits,
They would sell them overseas,
They would sell them where they make cheese,
They would sell them modified,
They would sell them to a guide,
They would sell them the world around,
And still we see they do abound.
You could buy one in Qatar,
And lean it up on your guitar.
yeah..or in ur asses!!?? :D
These were the fully lever automated actions of automatic fire of their day ah yes the AR-1892 what a gun
my modern production 1892 is one of my favorite rifles to shoot. just an amazingly nice handling and shoot able rifle
My grandfather ended up with an old 1892 Winchester in the 1920's because he was owed $20, that the man couldn't pay. I now have that gun and have researched it and it is first year of manufacture, 44/40 octagonal barrel and in excellent condition. Still shoots very well too. Love Grandpa's old gun.
If it is a 20" barrel Carbine, would you kindly verify for me how many cartridges it will hold in the magazine, 10 or 11 ?
@@joevalicenti2722 Not a Carbine. 24" barrel and holds 13 rounds. Each round is a little over 1.5" and I would have a hard time believing you could get more than 10 rounds in a carbine as that would be over 4.5" into a barrel only 4 " longer.
@@R182video That's the issue. If you ask folks they say the 24" Rifle holds 12 but I also have documented proof that it holds and fires 13 from the magazine tube. Still trying to verify the Carbine.
@@R182video Found the answer! Per The history of Winchester firearms, 1866-1966 Hardcover - January 1, 1966 by George R Watrous (Author) the Winchester Model
1892 in caliber .44-40 magazine capacities are as follows:
Standard 24" Rifle - 13
Standard 20" Carbine - 11
@@joevalicenti2722 Great... I will say i could get 13- 3/4 bullets in my gun, so I can see how 11 can go in a carbine.
I really appreciate your work. Enough details to make the delivery very entertaining and informative. Keep up the good work.
Great series. Now please do the same with Marlin lever rifles.
bibbyman2 nowadaze Marlin makes a better gun but, back the Winchester was the sizzle
I would like to see that as well as compare and contrast the 2 systems. watching the evolution. is fascinating!!! way to go Ian!!
Iconic rifle and a great backstory. I'm pretty sure JMB had the prototype nearly done or he would not have made that bet. He was probably just figuring out a few final dimensions. It would have been logical at the time to downsize the 86 to the shorter cartridges, since many people preferred them and the 73 had been so popular. Great video as always. Thank you
Rolling block remington
The prototype was the 1886 lever. The 92 is basically a scaled down version of it
I love these series detailing a specific type of guns development, Ian. Definitely keep up the good work
Are you gonna do a video at the end detailing the changes made to the current reproductions?
Definitely one of my favorites series Ian, looking forward to the next one
The '92 gun is from 1918, according to winchester
I have an 1892 pattern rifle, a Rossi in .45 Colt. It is my favorite lever gun.
Wonderful presentation, thank you for your time posting this excellent information.
I have a usable M92 carbine clone. Great in thick woods. Whenever you see a picture of John Wayne with a rifle it was a M92 carbine. He was very particular I have heard to use the same gear in every movie right down to his vest. Those props were reserved for him. There was a big sweat on a wardrobe department one time when they couldn't find his vest. Armorer wasn't as dumb. He knew exactly what Wayne wanted and had it there.
Least forgotten Forgotten Weapon
Steyr guns can get on forgotten weapons even when still in production due to Steyr's ingenious marketing program: If we make good guns then people will buy lots of them, right? And if we make them good enough, we don't need to waste money on advertising!
Really enjoying this series Ian. Top work.
A few years later Winchester severed its relationship with JMB...declaring that nothing new could possibly be invented by him...JMB went to Belgium and continued to prove Winchester wrong until his death in 1926...
Is it possible to take an 1886 apart? It'd be nice to see how it works inside.
"In Ravenholm you do well... To be vigilant." - Father Grigori
" "
-Gordon Freeman
Thank you for all the information I just gleaned from your video. I have a model 1892, a family heirloom that was handed to me by my dad. I have no idea where or when he got it but if came into the family via him. Mine is chambered in 3220, which is expensive as gold to buy but I still love this gun.
When I was a kid I used to think the west’s only guns were Winchester 1892s and Colt peacemaker’s thanks to Hollywood.
I had a Mattel Winchester '92...with operating lever, loading gate, tubular magazine, elevator and "shell" ejecting...must've been ca. 1959 or so...
Hello Ian,
You comment that the 44 WCF caliber configuration makes up 80% of the total Model 1892 production. I can assure you that this is far from being correct. In an effort to answer jsut these sort of questions precisely I have been conducting a research survey of the Model 1892 rifles for over 6 years now and have cataloged just over 10,200 individual rifles. Based on this data set it is apparent that the 44 WCF in fact makes up approximately 22% of the total number of rifles sampled. It would be almost impossible that the other three caliber choices are dramatically over represented in the market place to skew the numbers that dramatically.
Sincerely
Michael
Mr. McCollum, you and your channel are in a class by yourself!
About the '92's: I learned some years ago that the 1892 was John Wayne's favorite-- but I don't recall why.
Personally, Winchesters (other than the '94) have always been out of my reach financially, and frankly I have always preferred the Marlin 336 (it just FITS me).
Thanks for the informative video! I just inherited a Model 1892 marked 25-20
Crazy that the model B92 carbine (.357Mag) that my grandfather passed on to me is almost exactly the same as the carbine here
Hi Ian, at what point did the Winchester rifle designs change to accept smokeless powder cartridges? I realize smoke less powder existed at the time of the 1892s development. Were early models black powder and later ones smokeless?
That started with the Model 1894 and the Model 1895 which should be the next two rifles in the series
Brett Hutchison , does that mean that all model 92 rifles, even those made after 1900 are still black powder?
hallman244 Yes
Basically yes (it depends on what you mean by model). Later versions of this rifle, especially in the "varmint" calibers all used smokeless loads. The action was strong enough so later ammunition used smokeless powder. There was even a smokeless powder designated "Bulk" which could (at least theoretically) be loaded volume for volume into black powder cases. The pressure curves weren't identical, however, so there was some risk involved when using it in older guns.
There was also some tradition involved in cartridge nomenclature, where the first number was caliber, the second the weight of the charge of black powder, and the third (if used) was the bullet weight. The 30 30 Winchester kept the designation even though it was a smokeless design from the beginning. There was even the 32 Winchester special, a smokeless powder cartridge that was designed to be reloaded with black powder if the shooter desired.
smokeless powder cartridges are designed to higher pressures, but black powder cartridges are still loaded to lower pressures, even with smokeless in factory loadings.
Thanks for this series. Very interesting, especially since I grew up with the Cowboy movies and TV shows of the '50's and '60's and the Winchester was pretty much an icon.
My favorite. The 1892 is a strong action, can take modern magnum calibers. Winchester offered a load "WHV" for "Winchester High Velocity" cartridges that out performed 357 / 44 Mag. Too dangerous because the load cold destroy the 1873 Winchester rifle. I have a FMOBR 92 in 38-40, plus a repo Rossi 92 in 357 Mag. Ian didn't mention that the 92 action is smooth as butter, so fine.
Ian when did they get rid of the safety on the loading lever? what did they replace it with? is there a half cock notch or something. I know you mentioned an out of battery safety is that it?
My first gun after air rifle was a 94/22, simply elegant and functional guns.
My bro Rusty had 1..rip
Ian are you going to do a 7.62x54r 1895 in this series?
nutin2new he already has a while back :)
He's already done a very comprehensive one about the russian military contract 1895, maybe he'll make one about the regular comercial 1895.
He said two more, so that would be the '94 and the '95.
The loop lever gimmick was first used by John Wayne in the 1939 John Ford movie "Stagecoach" Reportedly, it was cooked up by stuntman Yakima Canute, Ford and Wayne as a memorable introduction for Wayne's character in the movie. He's stranded in the desert after his horse went down. He hails the coach by spin cocking the rifle. Even though Wayne was over 6 feet tall, they still had to cut the barrel down to clear his armpit for the spin. He used it in numerous movies over the years like Rio Bravo and even in the final shoot out of True Grit. Of course the model 92 hadn't been invented until decades after the time frame of most Hollywood westerns, but they were cheap and plentiful at the time, so they were used from the 30's and on until Italian replicas began to appear in the 1970's
What a fine piece of equipment.
Imagine the 1915 Howell Conversion outfitted for a lever action
Hurry up Ian - I have an 1894 model - needs to know more about it! Great series btw, really enjoying it.
Enjoying this series, but the Winchester story is fairly well known. Please do a series on the Marlin lever guns. All I really know is 1894, 1895, and 1893 (which I've rarely seen). No idea where the 336 and some of the others fit in.
Keep up the great work, best gun show
ever made.
first centerfire rifle i ever fired was a model 92 in .25-20...good times
I know you've already dedicated a video to it, but are you going to make a new one for the 1895? It's my favorite of the line, and sorely under-appreciated.
Speaking of Hollywood uses, '92s played '73s in a lot of classic Westerns set before 1892, because they were sturdier and also cheaper for prop departments to acquire (since still in production when those Westerns were being made).
Point of curiosity. A friend of mine with a winchester collection has a 92 with the half tube chambered in 25-20 and it was issued to a British armed merchant shipping crew to fend off against Uboats in ww1
like "Terminator 2" reload?
Ian, would You and Carl do a mud test on any Browning-Winchester gun?
still loving this series
My uncle, had the 1892 Winchester 44-40Carbine. He bought it in about 1920.
I used to do the one hand flip cycling with a 336 Marlin in 30-30 as a kid.
There are some propositions that you ALWAYS say yes to. A chance at a free design by Browning, regardless of the odds, is certainly one of them.
I seem to recall reading that there was a lot of hoopla about how much stronger the 92 was than the 1873 because of the vertical locking lugs. One of the gunsmith/writers of the time (P.O. ACKLEY?) proved this wasn't so by removing the lugs and firing it without incident.
The '73 was handling handgun cartridges just fine, the lugs were a big help when using rifle rounds (thus the '86). Putting the same system into the '92 was mere overbuild. Kind of like installing duallys into a station wagon: sure, they may have a place and purpose in a heavy-duty pickup, but on a _station wagon?_ Not so much.
Here it is near the end of 2021 and I am about to become the owner of a brand new Model 92.
Awesome! I learned a lot about a gun I own but didn't know much about. Interesting thing here, mine is marked "Model 1892 Winchester Trade Mark Reg. in U.S. Pat. Off." so it's a mix between the two you have here. Im assuming this is in between switching from 1892 to Model 92. Serial Number on mine is 504xxx. Must be middle of the batch. Thanks for the info!
I have a Winchester 1892 Ser # 32XXX. Looking at Winchester Dates of Mfg. it was made in 1893. What is your thought on firing this old gun? I have some modern smokeless cartridges 38-40. Thank you.
If your dating is correct then Blackpowder only. I believe that an 1895 manufacture date is generally accepted as the ealiest that you can expect guns to be proofed for smokeless but I have never seen any factory sourced documents to prove it. For my own guns I use 1900 as the cut off especially with ones not made by mainstream manufacturers. Had an acquaintance with a BEAUTIFUL 1875 Remmy, fantastic condition dated to 1894. He wouldn't heed the warnings and after about 3 cylinders full of factory 44 40 ammo the cylinder cracked. Luckily it stayed together and no one was hurt but a lot of money leaked out of the gun at that moment. Also, there was a story circulating around the cowboy action crowd about 25 years ago concerning someone insisting on shooting smokeless out of a clearly presmokless Win 73. When the gun came apart the little cross pin, that holds the old style one piece firing pin into the bolt, sheared sending the firing pin backwards through his safety glasses into his eye. I might want to avoid that scenerio if possible. Good luck!
I hope that we get one or two of these on Winchester lever action shotguns...
Really interesting video, thanks!!!
I know an elderly chap with a rifle chambered in .22 WRF. Is there a video on this calibre in the vault? If not, I sure would like to see one. I'm not sure what model his is other than it's a lever gun with an octagon bbl. < I think. I just got a quick peek years ago.
I have a model 1892 in 38-40. Serial #168. It has NEVER had a round fired through it.............. Belonged to my wife's great uncle who was an illustrator back in the day.
Really loving this series.
When did the tang safety switch get added? I don't see it on these early models.
The lever on a 15 1/2 inch barreled Winchester 92 was modified by famed stunt man Yakima Canutt for his friend John Wayne to use in the movie Stagecoach. I think that was the first film use of the large loop Winchester 92
The gun that didn’t win the West, was hardly even present, yet dominates every movie or tv series on the West. To some degree, an after effect of Stagecoach combined with the fact that you have a handy carbine that fires 5 in 1 blanks. You would be surprised at the number of gun owners who believe they are seeing a Model 1894 and don’t even know the 92 existed!
Have a 92 serial 343,### circa 1906 with a Lyman (I think that's the name) flip up rear sight, no buck horn sight but the dove tail to mount one is in the barrel...is that an original option?
Awesome and informative series!
Thanks for the video, it was very interesting. Question: Does Winchester 92 and 1873 have smooth or rifled bore?
Rifled origionly untill worn out then semi sooth bore due to corrosive primers and black powder or high flame temperatures of early smokeless powder.
Ian, I wonder why Winchester did not offer the 1892 in 44 special once that cartridge was on the market ?
Mine loooks like it hex barrel nickel rec,but short mag tube right at the end of fore end also peep sight says 94 on it but what model its also in 30wcf so any ideas
I own a Sear-Roebuck Ted Williams Model 100 chambered in .30-.30. I believe its from the 1970s and is a direct copy of the Winchester Model 94. Am I correct? Also its my understanding that Winchester made the gun, but was sold under the Sears name. Great video man! I love lever guns! I also own a "Henry" .22 lever gun thats a tack driver!!
Brandon Cox - 1950's or early 60's i think. Store brand guns were cimmon back then. Sears, Western Auto, Montgomery Ward/Western Field, Sterling (hardware chain), etc. The big manufacturers were Winchester, Marlin, Stevens, and Mossberg. I think the gun will say somewhere in it who the manufacturer is. As far as i know, the Sears Ted Williams line was made by Winchester. I don't kbow if GCA '68 affected store branding of guns, but it seemed to peter out after that. But i do remember seeing a few Western Field shotguns in Montgomery Ward in the 80's
John Brown was a gunsmith that not only knew his art, but also how to deal with businessmen!
I started this series of videos saying "cool, I want a Henry." Every single video after I said "Well, maybe not that last gun, this one is the same thing but better! This is definitely the gun for me."Of course that changes once I watch the next video. It would be cool to add an original, reproduction, or off-brand (like a Rossi) 1892 to my collection.
Browning was a master.
I know that this is a old video but I just want to say....I LOVE lever action rifles, especially WINCHESTER!! Too bad they aren't made in the USA anymore. I'll keep my pre-64 model 94 until they pry it from my dead cold hands.
Can anyone tell me if you can just buy a leather stock cover for any Winchester 1800 series or does it need to be 1892 specific?
Actually both John M and his brother Matthew S Browning co-patented the 1886 and the 1892 as well as the 1887, 1890, 1893, 1897 and colt 1895 MG. Their half-brother Edmund would have made the prototypes as he was the best machinist.
Skull Face's rifle in MGS5 is based on this gun.
Nice to see, great video
So, I've been wondering a while... aside from aesthetics, are there any significant differences between a polygonal barrel and a round one?
The Rogue Wolf
If anything, I would argue that a round barrel would have better harmonics than an octogonal barrel; leading to better accuracy. then again, for a lever action workhorse of a gun back then; it is more than likely octogonal vs round was more of astetic preference and manufacturing much over barrel harmonics.
Octagonal barrels being thicker tended to have better accuracy and less potential wander.
Timothy Soen
I believe you are right on the money. As I had previously stated before, it would not make any sense for one at the time to have a round barrel on a lever action due to the fact that that the proposed theory of barrel harmonics would be completely deemed useless for the tube magizine and the front barrel band holding the front sight and the front of the tube mag. It would then make sense that an polygonal/ octogonal barrel was the result of machining practices without a lathe AND creating a heat absorbing mass on the barrel, essentially; a precursor to bull/ heavy barrels.
I’ve watched this whole series trying to decide which one I want. I already have a 94. Now I’m stuck between 1883 and 1892 or perhaps an 1866. But the knowing there’s an 86 and an 89 I might want more power I just don’t know
Hi Ian,
what happend to the video about the 1887? That you spoke about a long time ago?
I am still eagerly waiting for it...
This series is just on the rifles.
I know, but I am still wondering what happend back then. I remember you replying to a comment on a video (where people were shooting in funny costumes) that you will make a video on the gun used by a guy in that video.
Did something interfere?
Just haven't had a chance to coordinate filming with the guy who had that one. I do plan to make that video, but I don't know when it will happen.
many don't know it but John Browning was a genius because he's actually an alien from space
Ian' kinda cool right?
like always throwin down on sweet vids. And this Winchester series is just the tops man!
aw man leavin me in suspense.
On thinking about why Winchester would pay John M Browning to develop what is now the 92, it makes sense that Browning was their "R &D" branch, though not exactly in house. It was easier for Browning to create the prototype than to do it in house, it seems to me
Browning remains the coolest guy to ever be
Did any gun-makers try to make a side-by-side 2x barrel and action operated by a single lever? (Rifle or Shotgun)
One lever to rule them all!
or did anyone ever make a left-handed leveraction?
Ian I love your videos! Can you put these history of the winchester leveraction in a playlist please
Yes, I already did.
i found it thanks Ian! ima grab a beer and watch these like a documentary. i waited until they were all out so i could watch em straight through!
8:05 ahh this flipping was also used in famous Terminator 2 scene where Schwarzernegger was riding with Harley Davidson and swing-cocked lever action shotgun Winchester M1887 to shoot the bad guy :D .
Some winchesters don't have the bottom tube all the way out to the muzzle but limited to within the stock, is there any specific name/model designation for those?
NaCI Sigma They were called Sporting rifle or Sporting carbine.
Ian, do you have a favorite among the Winchester lever gun designs?
i'm not sure if they were gunsmith customs, but i have seen at least two non-reproduction 92's with shorter than 14" barrels.
(probably 12")
Would you consider a similar series focused on Marlin?
How many cartridges does an ORIGINAL Model 1892 20" Carbine hold in 44WCF (44-40) ?
Found the answer! Per The history of Winchester firearms, 1866-1966 Hardcover - January 1, 1966 by George R Watrous (Author) the Winchester Model
1892 in caliber .44-40 magazine capacities are as follows:
Standard 24" Rifle - 13
Standard 20" Carbine - 11
I think 99% of the rifles used in western movies were ‘92s, regardless of what period the film was set in.
Can't wait to see the 94 and 95!
Those two don't really get seen that often. Certainly not in the UK, anyhow.
Theirs 1894s everywhere in the USA everyone i know owns one most in 30 30
Thanks for the vid sir.
My great grandmother was Born when this rifle was made...met her Long ago.