As a joke, I have chosen to create a background I think really suits the current game. I couldn't decide on any visual them which really suited the video, other than perhaps images of the rulebooks over the years, but honestly it's not worth it. This is a listening episode, not a watching episode, and hopefully you all enjoy it.
I can tolerate game imbalance. The game can be artificially rebalanced once powergamers are taken out of the equation. What makes my blood boil is when the lore butchering makes it's way to tabletop. After seeing the new Incursors and the shoehorning of vanilla Agressors into the Deathwing I'm crossing fingers for GW to stop with primaris. Maybe not now, maybe not tomorrow, maybe not in a decade, but Emperor I do hope someday we will get to escape from MKX spec-ops look back into the classic aesthetic of MKVII _equila_-pattern marines. The look where almost every battle-brother could be unique if you took the time to customize his markings, armor pattern and weaponry. Where the history of the chapter was visible on the models themselves in the form of Heresy-era armor patterns and relic vehicles such as FW Deimos pattern predators and MKIV dreadnoughts, not just a different paintjob. They should've done what they did with chaos: update the models. Not replace them with a version that lacks the baroque asthetic and sometimes even the lore of the originals. They could've done with the ressources they commited to the Numarines. But GW has spend waay to much in the new dudes, and it will keep shifting away from knightly gothic in favour of tacticool as time progresses. We can only hope their unique charm will be given back to them someday. The Emperor Protects.
The two things that got me in 40k is admech amd primaris marines. Rule of cool. Alot of the other things look hideous. I love battletech but the models look awful. The lore means little to me bc 40k lore is a hob cob of others work and isnt very thought out in a lore bible lile other IPs and books use. The primaris creation is much better then the Emps creation stories. Btw I dont like GW. I dont buy or go to there stores. I just think primairs and admech look better and I am happy they are better than the mini marines.
@The Martial Lord of Loyalty Im not telling anyone to like it. Im not a fanboy. If I stop liking something I just go somewhere else. Star wars and marvel comics come to mind. Many video games. I did some research and GW has never been a good company to the consumers. I think its bc its a UK company. That and the fans of such hobbys usually have no spine. I could live without primaris but I wouldnt have ever got in it without that and kill team. I have a army background and so they appeal to me. Dark Angels are my favorite and I can kitbash candles and capes.
1st edition is good if you have a 3rd party set up the game, think of it like a GM, 2nd edition really just needs a point cap on Hero's, no assassins, no vortex grenades... not played much beyond 3rd edition though. Warbands from the first edition chaos books can be fun with or without cheese. Wish they would do an edition where they just tweaked the previous edition though, but that does not sell new products I guess. Still a toss up between first and second for me, no other edition has even inspired me to play.
I'm still salty over the Squats and Dogs of War armies no longer being supported. GW: ''Cheers for your money, but we're not going to support them anymore, see ya!'' Bastards.
The 3rd to 4th transitions were pretty well done, and over quite some time. They first released an expansion called "Codex: City Fight" (2001) which made the case for why you might use more abstracted rules. Templates were done away with close combat was simplified and a number of other changes were made. Unfortunately cityfight melees devolved into ablative wounds on powerfist characters. They then released 'trial' rules for close combat which still had many of the optimisations, but meant that more builds for melee units would be viable, which went on to be the basis for 4th edition. A number of the (dumped) ideas that were raised during this phase of experimentation through Chapter Approved, resurfaced later. Including running, not using templates at all, and various different line of sight and wound allocation tweaks. In fact, overall you'll find that wound allocation is probably the area that 40k has struggled with the most (it's had the most changes over editions, including reversing previous decisions). As a long-time chaos player, it's interesting/frustrating to see some of the longer phase changes to how marines worked. In late 2nd and 3rd they were very distinct forces. One force had newer technology, less randomness, and a lot less flexibility (space marines). Plasma would go on cool-down after firing, your unit sizes were generally fixed/limited, but you had anti-grav, assault marines, etc. Chaos in contrast always had variable unit sizes, it's plasma weapons were more dangerous but fired every round, and the characters had better access to weird daemon stuff and psyker abilities. You could also bolster your forces with daemons. Fast forward to the later editions and marines gradually absorbed all the benefits of being chaos. Grey hunters were basically better chaos marines for cheaper, daemons got moved to their own codex, and champions of chaos were just evil versions of space marine heroes, usually with worse rules. The entire "chapters with specialities" rulesets were built for chaos, then given to marines and withheld from chaos. Rules that were developed for chaos (hit and run for example), were removed from chaos units and given for free to marines. Overally, I think the designers struggle to decide what Chaos is now, in 40k. If they are legions, then make them legions. If they are daemonic, give them cool daemon powers and better psykers. If they are renegade marines, then just make them mirror-match marines.
One thing wrong here, the 'Chapters with specialities' idea wasn't built for Chaos. It started with Index Astartes, back before the 3.5 Chaos Dex, where both Chaos Legions and Codex-less 1st Founding Chapters getting special rules. While Chaos have overall been hard done by (most critically in 6th), it's not as unrelentingly negative as you make it appear. Rules migrate all over the place across the edition, from most of the old IA rules for Scars just becoming the normal rules for bikers, to fleet starting out as an Eldar exclusive USR, it's just the way of things. What really hurt Chaos was not getting a 5th edition book, and being early in 6th, before the paradigm shift of that edition. The 4th edition Chaos book was far from bad (although the loss of customisation was unfortunate), and was very well received at release (at least among my playing groups at the time) and opinion only turned when 5th rolled out the Ward Dexes (which still had far, far less Chapter Customisation than the 4th ed Marine book).
@@efffvss Sorry, you are correct. When I said "Chapters with Specialties", I meant "build your own chapters". The idea of allowing users to select bonuses and advantages. The 3.5 codex allowed this through veteran skills, with various limitations, and this was probably the last time that regular chaos space marines were an effective troops choice. The 4th edition codex was good for one reason, it gave chaos a 1 point discount to chaos space marines while retaining CCW and BPs, and Bolters. However the tradeoff was the loss of all useful daemons from the codex (replaced by a useless 'generic' daemon entry), the loss of scalability on characters, the loss of rules representing legions, and the loss of all veteran abilities. In effect, chaos traded some marginal benefits to overall efficiency at the expense of all the flavour, nuance, and most of the differentiating factors. I agree, chaos has been hurt by going early. GW has not managed power creep well, and Chaos has had fairly early 4th/5th, 6th/7th, and 8th books.
I have to say that I liked the grimdark theme better back in the day when it was less cliched, and less self aware. The fact that the Warhammer community team are now saying things like ‘that’s so grimdark’ makes me feel like the setting has kind of become a parody of itself.
It very much has become a parody of itself. Sad, but true. They started taking themselves too serious, forgetting that the core of the setting was a rip-off of eighties pop culture with a healthy dose of British humour mixed in.
we still use the phrases: Deep Strike, Feel No Pain, Look Out SIr etc. in our 8ed games with friends, despite the fact there are no such phrases in official rulebook.
40k 8th: Re-Roll edition 40k 8th: Everything has a bazillion wounds because everything dies so quickly Edition 40k 8th: RNG card game Edition I miss 40k tbh.
@@dominionwargaming8638 9th Ed is so wildly over the top, as you alluded to. I got out in 8th. Got back in for 9th after hearing how balanced it was. I'm making my exit again 6 months back and gonna do HH now that its gonna be affordable. 9th is so wild that a unit with a 2+/4+ and 5 wounds is relatively weak. You need to supplement with strategems and relics to even survive a character to turn 3.
As well as the (important) gameplay changes that you mentioned, GW just stopped caring about the background material (mostly excluding novels/stories). Examples of this include renaming armies, the new background writers not being familiar with the 40K background and so breaking 40K background rules, putting the bare minimum of material in codexes introducing silly troops or armies (cough, Primaris Marines, Sisters of Silence & Adeptus Mechanicus, all breaking the background rules).... Honestly if the people paid to do so won't care about 40K why should we? A franchise differs with time and it seems that all the best creators/maintainers of 40K lived on Cadia.
@@J_Warral Sure, if there is any confusion then please let me know. The Emperor gave important laws to the Mechanicus, one is "do not use A.I" (so don't use robots). Servitors were created/used for this very reason (to avoid robots). Servitors are pretty much living, cybernetic creatures so no A.I, merely creatures (humans usually) who have had their brains manipulated with & then any needed devices placed into the body. Most/All things with A.I are enemies to the Imperium but guess what? Mechanicus are now using robots and the A.I. that accompanies them. Also the tech-priest leader Belisarius Cawl has out shined the genius Emperor by creating better versions of his (arguably) greatest creations, the space marines. Also I'm pretty sure that altering space marine genes is forbidden (but I could be wrong about that), space marines would kill most people who tried it. Cawl broke the other Mechanicus laws to do so such as "do not create new technology" and "do not use alien/foreign technology." Honestly, Cawl would of been killed for his actions (or turned into a servitor) by the old staff but this was ignored so Primaris Marines could exist. Anyway, (nitpick now) Mechanicus are allowed to have armies however Mechanicus was mainly supposed to rely on Astra Militarum (Imperial Guard/Imperial Navy) to protect them. Other factions of the Imperium has been attacked for having too large a military force. So we have Mechanicus using A.I. (illegal) and an unpunished tech-priest leader who created new technology (illegal), used alien technology (illegal), used very old, unknown technology (illegal) and altered space marines genes (illegal probably). Cawl is also smarter than the Emperor it seems... Regarding Sisters of Silence, they are all "blanks" in the Imperium, creatures who drain psychic power from their environment. Blanks are so rare that more than one small, single army could never exist. Blanks are really, really rare. There are more than trillions of psykers for every blank, and there are billions of normal people for every psyker. (Those aren't the exact number but I'm sure that you get the point) To be a Sister of Silence, one has to be female so the tiny number of blanks-to-be-sisters is then halved. At the end of the day, the sisters don't have the numbers to be armies Also mentioned earlier the Sisters of Silence drain psychic power from their environment however the Sisters of Silence live near the Emperor. That Emperor who is reliant on psychic power to survive. I don't know how writers didn't notice this but in the background, the sisters who "help protect" the Emperor are reducing his growth and protection. So there are not enough Sisters for armies and they are poorly placed/located. Their bodies doing more to kill the Emperor than help him. (Sidenote: The Sisters of Silence occupy, control and guard the Black Ships (which pick up and hold illegal psykers) however before the Sisters of Silence were created by GW, it was the Sisters of Battle (Adepta Sororitas) who did this) I hope that helps, that's just from the top of my head so I might have forgotten something.
@@blindlobster you are kinda wrong and right about Mechanicus, and TOTALLY wrong about Silent Sisterhood. - First of all, Emperor is not some kind of overblown rule-jerk who follows the rules himself. Yes, he made rules for common men... and then broke those rules. He dealt with xenos, dealt with AIs, maybe dealt with Chaos Gods. Emperor is a man who gets things done - everything is just an instrument and a means to an end. Custodes wielded forbidden technology, First Legion (Dark Angels) wielded forbidden technology, pre-Heresy Mechanicum wielded pretty much AIs and used tons of "forbidden" technology, Emperor was a close ally of "heretical" Terrawat Clan (go google Leviathan dreds and Sicaran Arcus). Because for the Emperor, EVERYTHING is but a means to an end. Anything is justified, as long as it serves mankind. Also, Cawl was on the original team of the researchers who worked on Astartes project with the Emperor, he had records from Emperor's own facilities. Remember, Emperor didn't make the most perfect soldiers ever - he made the most cost-efficient solution, the Astartes. The Primaris, we know, are not cost-efficient as soldiers, so hence why maybe Emperor did not push them into production and development? So yes, whilst rules apply to the common man... we all know, how for men of power in Imperium, rules aren't exactly written in unbreakable stone. The only issue I see with the Cawl is that he came out of nowhere - they might've given us some more background, built up the rumors over the years about some secret project going on with clearance above even High Lords of Terra and etc. - Now, onto Silent Sisterhood. If you read Horus Heresy: Inferno, Silent Sisterhood ALWAYS could wield small army-sized formations (well, elite-40K kind of armies, hundreds or few thousands). In the history of the Silent Sisterhood, there is given an example of an entire planet that was inhabited by the Blanks. It was found in a random accident, when an all-female regiment had to quell psykers uprising and out of all forces involved, those women stood untouched by Warp's power. Adepta Sororitas never were involved with the Black Ships - it was Inquisition. Also, Silent Sisterhood does not live near the Emperor. Even if they did, it is not a problem - Blanks have a limited range of their abilities and even the most powerful of them affect no more than a hundred meters in a bubble. So as long as you keep them a few hundred meters away from the Emperor at least, it is fine. But it's not even a problem since Silent Sisterhood operated out of Citadel Somnus on Luna before Horus Heresy and was scattered all over the galaxy after the Heresy. Though they're allowed to be present in the Imperial Palace, they do not reside there permanently. Also, you're talking suspiciously like you think, that GW invented Silent Sisterhood only recently? Aren't you a newfag yourself, by any chance? Because Sisters of Silence were there like... since f*cking 90s? When the whole Custodes and Emperor/Horus duel and Heresy stuff was established, we had Silent Sisterhood. In fact, they're a force MASSIVELY present on the famous picture where line of Talons of the Emperor stands (with The Man in the middle).
I don´t know about the sisters but I do about the admech. First of all impovenemt / making of new technolgie is not outright illegal. It is just that many tech priests think that all technology is holy and therefore tinkering with it is heresy. There are forgeworlds, like ryza, who believe improving technolgy, though. Second of all I never heard of the mechanicus using A.I on any large scale. Are you refering to kastelans? They are basically automatons with a slot for a floppy disc that the datasmith changes to choose the protocols. And while they come close to A.I they are far to simple for indipendant thinking and actually have "fleshy- bits" It is true however that Cawl is just great at everything. He was mentioned in the "old lore" as a tech priest who spends his time trying to improve plasma weaponry and make it more compact. And btw he is Arch-Dominus and not fabricator general so he isn´t even the leader of the mechanicus
@@J_Warral While the Emperor was standing he could be flexible with the rules, however once he was stuck on the Golden Throne... those rules became written in unbreakable stone. I'm sorry but I haven't read Horus Heresy: Inferno about the Blank planet. But at the Emperor;s state, it is foolish to risk the Emperor with a fan, let alone things that can affect a planet. Why be uncomfortable when there are other forces that can do the job just as well as SOS. If I threw a grenade with the pin still connected, would you be happy while it happened. It's not worth the risk... Anyway, I wasn't aware that the Sisters of Silence were around since the 90's. Their codex came out in 2017, what else have they been in? I tend to avoid Horus Heresy, I'm not really a space marine guy. Yes, Adepta Sororitas were involved with the Black Ships when they worked for/with the Inquisition, (usually Ordo Hereticus) It has been mentioned in the "Witch Hunters" codex and the Sisters of Battle omnibus (and the 3rd ed rulebook I think) Regarding the tech-priests, remember that Mechanicum and Mechanicus are not the same. Yes, one turned into the other but their opinions changed over time. Once the Emperor/Omnissah was sitting, the Imperium became less forgiving. I'm not new myself (3rd ed) however as the new (lesser) material has been appearing the 40K background, this material has been slightly pushing me away. The novels have mainly stopped me from leaving.
I really do think the consumer shares part of the blame. So many 40k players are willing to buy models they don't like just so they can use them in a stronger list to win games. It's so bad that many players don't even bother to paint their armies before using them in games. I would rather these players buy and use chess pieces to proxy their armies, so at least they are more true to what they are doing and not buying permission to play a tabletop game. Something feels very lame about fielding grey plastic, that you don't even care enough to paint, just so you can see your power creep fantasy play out. Any profit seeking company can see a clear path to revenue from here. Overpowered units sell unfortunately. I was proud to see the overwhelming resistance to Guilliman though.
100% I think people are trying to blame it all on GW . I undertsand why though , if youre spending $100 on a couple of OP models why should you be at fault ?
Why would you say 3rd was where the true fluff/background was set? 3rd codexes didn't give a stuff about background, being little more than pamphlet sized rules lists. It should be 2nd. One thing that stands out comparing for example Orks 2nd to Orks 8th is that the old one was obviously written by history nerds, while in 8th there's no understanding of the depth of time, or even really how a time-line entry works. Seriously it devolves into a mini novel in the middle of the time line. Only thing 3rd had over 2nd was the addition of Tau and Necrons
To me, 2. edition was the best version. Yes, it could get clunky when you played 3000+ points, but come on... This is a skirmish game, not a mass combat game. It also had by far the best fluff. The craziness of 1. edition had been toned down, but there was still a very clear eighties vibe of 2000AD mixed with Doctor Who mixed with Lord of the Rings mixed with a healthy doze of Monty Python. It was grim. It was dark. But there was a bit of humour there, preventing it from getting too much. Later on they started taking themselves way too serious (essentially forgetting that 40K was originally a tongue-in-cheek rip-off of a lot of eighties pop culture) and we got the grimdark-with-skulls mess we have now. 3. edition and onwards never really caught my interested, and I found myself playing less and less as the years went by. But what broke me in the end wasn't the rules, it was the price. It became more and more obvious that the sales department had taken over, and with constant price hikes and an ever increasing army size, I simply reached a point where the game was no longer worth the time and money I had to spend on it. Modern 40K simply doesn't interest me. The game is way too big to be played in 28 mm... The models themselves are way to be to be called 28 mm... There is no regard for previous fluff... Black Library is churning out tons of bad sci-fi pulp fiction, written by authors who don't understand the setting, and don't seem to care much about it anyway... I certainly won't call 2. edition a good game (Games Workshop has made very few good games, rule-wise...), but at least the company cared back then. Sadly, that time is long gone now.
What broke both games: the introduction of Magic The Gathering in the early nineties, the introduction of World of Warcraft in 2004. Corporatist driven decisions were always a massive problem too, with the strange idea to have GW shops in every city- competing locally with mixed toy and fantasyshops.
Nice history stroll, mate. 👍 I started playing 40k with 2nd ed way back in the 90s myself. Oh, the nostalgia! I have to say I actually really like 7th ed and never even bothered with starting 8th. BUT we don't use the tactical objectives crap and are a group of friendly fun players with some sense of moderation, so for us it works just fine.
Love the content! Keep up the good work maca! One thing have you ever heard of chapter master Valrack (Hopefully I spelt it right). If hadn't just think fortnut crowd but amped up to 11. I think you'd get a kick from his channel.
I first started playing right at the start of 4th and stopped before 5th before coming back as an adult a year into 8th and it didnt even feel like the same game... This is why Im basically just a specialist games player now, and also AoS feels a lot more accessible than [I think it was] 6th ed fantasy! And I really missed the metal models when I got back into the hobby
Wow it turns out I got into and out of 40K at the perfect times. Started playing when 3rd edition was a little 2 months old and stopped playing literally 3 days before the announcement of 5th edition.
I started playing with 2nd edition...then left for many years. I came back for 7th edition...GAH!! Luckily I was a Marine player, eh? So moving to 8th was a genuine breath of fresh air. Maybe this is why I don't crap on the latest edition as much as others...I never got to play the HOLY 5th edition. It sounded great. My point is, 8th is not as bad as everyone makes out. I don't compare it to an edition that is so loved by all. The rule set of 8th (of course in my opinion) is stunningly efficient. At first, I was really worried that the rules would simplify...I liked the complexity of 7th making it a hard game to master...and memorise! :D 8th continues to surprise me with it's depth. Yes, power creep will always be a thing as it sells models...as you say...but then, it keeps things exciting...I don't see this as frustrating. It's constantly mixing up the armies. It's only an amount of time before it's time for your army to get a load of love...and then nerfed a few weeks later (hehe)...but I think that's fun. My lists have evolved with the rules and updates. Compared to the RIDICULOUS creep in 7th...I think this edition is doing a fine job at keeping the armies relatively balanced.
Gotta love how they hiked the price on the Black Reach box after people bought a lot of it. It went from $75US to over $110. Maybe more. Don't remember. Probably their best idea, cheap, snap models that you and a buddy could get, split both boxes and buy a few extra hq models for a playable beginner army. Nope, GW wasn't having that. You will NOT get a playable army of over 250points for less then $150 for EACH person, and definitely without the rules, that cost extra.
Primaris marines have broken it. I kind of feel that despite the primaris marines looking great and all that they are the thin end of the obsolecence wedge. I enjoy redoing my old RTB01 models etc etc but how long will it be until they just redo armies so nobody can use their old collection for anything?
It doesn't bother me if they update the models. The new CSM were great, as mediocre as the release was. What makes my blood boil is the lore butchering. After seeing the new Incursors and the shoehorning of vanilla Agressors into the Deathwing I'm crossing fingers for GW to stop with primaris. Maybe not now, maybe not tomorrow, maybe not in a decade, but Emperor I do hope someday we will get to escape from MKX spec-ops look back into the classic aesthetic of MKVII _equila_-pattern marines. The look where almost every battle-brother could be unique if you took the time to customize his markings, armor pattern and weaponry. Where the history of the chapter was visible on the models themselves in the form of Heresy-era armor patterns and relic vehicles such as FW Deimos pattern predators and MKIV dreadnoughts, not just a different paintjob. They should've done what they did with chaos: update the models. Not replace them with a version that lacks the baroque asthetic and sometimes even the lore of the originals. But GW has spend waay to much in the new dudes, and it will keep shifting away from knightly gothic in favour of tacticool as time progresses. We can only hope their unique charm will be given back to them someday. The Emperor Protects.
@@wyattarthur5275 Plastic sisters happened though. And GW doubled down on aesthetics with them, so there is still ppl at Geedubs with a minimum of taste. Everything is possible if we mantain the long vigil. One can only hope that the obsolecence will do the hobby a favour for a change, once the Primaris have come full circle.
That's started already with them pushing some units into the "legends" category and not being able to use them in tournaments...and no I'm not a touney player
Having played 1st edition endlessly as a kid, I'm amazed to watch recent battle reports and discover that the clunkiest core game mechanics of WFB / WH40K are *still* there and have actually gotten worse - namely 'buckets of dice' and the rigid alternating turns. As a teenager it was a revelation when I got into 20mm WW2 and acquired a set of rules in which one side moved *while* the other side shot at them. The loss of blast templates in 8th edition is truly egregious, giving characters effective immunity from artillery fire and encouraging units to bunch up in the most ludicrous fashion. Allowing the target player to allocate hits to members of units as he sees fit (rather than randomly or based on who falls under the blast template) is also a recipe for absurdity. If and when I get the Emperor's Children force on my desktop painted up, I hope I can find an opponent who is willing to do what historical wargamers have always done - adapt the ruleset so that it a.) rewards 'realistic' tactics and b.) makes for a fun and reasonably balanced game.
This is why I've stopped buying codexes until I have enough of the models I think look cool and are enjoyable to build and paint ready to put together a list with. I work very slowly, so odds are the next rule book/codex will come out before I've got my army together, so I just wasted money.
Have to disagree with your point that 3rd ed. was where the fluff "hardened". At the beginning of 3rd ed. you had codices with little to no fluff whatsoever. The universe building was completed during 2nd ed.
And that is why I ran screaming from 40k to AoS. Honestly, there's far less creep in AoS, the community is much more mellow, and it's an environment where going 3-2 at a tournament is a fine goal to aim for.
A fellow refuge :3, also to add i feel the money is less needed, well its hard to state but less units means less things to buy...but i fear units will get cheaper and people will have to spend moar money
@@Gilean80 FEC used to be garbo tier, so them being great doesn't bother me. As for Skaven, it's Skaven. Half the time they kill themselves as much as your boys do. And yes, fewer models. Unless you're me and building Legions of Nagash. 80 Skeletons and 30 Grave Guard plus leaders.
Aaaaand the pattern of codex creep continues into 9th. We had a handful of balanced codices in the beginning and now they're increasingly OP. If you can beat Tau with Space Marines, it's because your list is tight as a drum.
Yeah so listened for fun because I have already given up on Codeices. May consider buying rules when they make them e-subscription. Fed up of paying for books which tear up lore and make playing so little fun. Using 40k armies with modified historical rules for action games - not a tournament player, who I actually feel sorry for.
476 Anno Domini all of the Armies were from reddit. Just the most absurd OP armies. The worst is everyone doesn’t paint there models. Just there to smash
You didn't HAVE to pick Warlord Traits randomly. I still don't. It's Iron Resolve all the way. And I think part of the post-fifth downfall is partly due to the disregard for standard "Troops" choices. They don't really have a purpose anymore, but they should be the mainstay of armies! Marines with Tactical Squads, Eldar without Guardians. Other than Orks and Guard, I never see basic troops. It's a shame.
I think the fatal flaw of 5th was how non-5th edition armies suffered compared to 5th ed armies. That said too, there were serious problems with the codexes towards the end with the writers really killing the game.
Not to mention if you like Wolves, Blood Angels, other specialist/melee focused chapters, then you can just go fuck yourself since primaris don't play that way.
It's also more sad that if you bring up grimdark or if you want to preserve the grimdarkness, some people will scoff and laugh at you for being silly about it.
Maybe the tabletop aspect is in a bad state; I wouldn't know... because having nobody in my general area to play anything cool and slightly intellectually challenging makes actually playing those kinds of games pretty much impossible... LoL. Sadly, Bum Fucked Egypt, Arkansas isn't exactly a place that's well known for it's hip/smart people ya know... LoL. So the "gaming" aspect may well be screwed up, it does sound like it is from this video's narrative... BUT, the Black Library 40K novels, & 30K Horus Heresy novels... Man they are mostly all really good. I have been able to enjoy, & truly appreciate, Warhammer 40K "content" and it's constantly expanding lore more than any other current fictional universe setting out there! I find the "lore" community is fun, people enjoy just having discussion about everything, and there is SO MUCH, in 40K's lore. So I hope that GW get their shit together on the tabletop game, because 40K is a legitimately legendary property that needs to be handled with respect and appreciation by it's creators.
I don't mind 8th that much to be honest, but I can see where you are coming from. Tanks die too easily, re rolls are too stronk and Xenos still need work after all these years. Even though I have not been playing warhammer for that long, I can with a straight face say that 7th was a complete mess.
I started in 5th and I've seen the game do nothing but go downhill. I still play because I love the models and the lore but I still stand by 5th being the best edition, if you could exclude the unkillable vehicles as you pointed out. I lost count the number of games where I did nothing but stun or shake a vehicle for the entire match while mine blew up like fireworks. Also before it was introduced in 6th ed, it didn't even cross my mind in games to ally forces with each other, you just used that army. 6th ed really opened the can of worms with that one, I admit I do enjoy allying armies on the odd occasions but the amount of cheese from soup lists isn't worth it being an option. Save them for friendly narrative games.
RT is the only edition to have an equal points build system! every edition after have had "vague" points that sometimes didnt match up! it also had the freedom to allow you to do what ever you wanted with your coin, not what GW want you to do with your purchase
2nd edition was a great game. I guess anything with more than 2 pages of rules is considered clunky by people suffered through a modern education system.
Great video, I agree on tour points, but I do think the game is in its best state now and moving forward into 9th excites me more than when we moved to 6th. 💪👍
Hey Macca, love ur videos. And Agreed but honestly gameplay wise, 7th and 8th are my favorite. 20 years old been playing since I was 11 when I got into late 5th edition early 6th edition. Honestly, I think that they need to bring back psychic powers and yeah primaris marines are cool, but I miss tax marines and the way the old space marines chapter used to work. They should also make daemons a non horde army and incorporate them into the CSM like back in 3.5 edition. Update the Xenos range, redo the entire Ork range, they need to also darken the lore a significant amount again. Have a xenos and chaos mixed apocalypse, a lot of lore changed. This is Literally my favorite game ever, as such I feel like I need to point out some stuff. Also like yourself, I love the Horus heresy and been playing that since 2012. Have a sons of Horus and word bearers army. In 8th, honestly Everything currently is pretty points cost effective, WAYYY more so than any other edition. The high wounds and way the weapons work I’m fine with, especially the high wounds, that should never change. Tanks and walkers/ vehicles should have HP again or just wounds without the damage table. In my opinion, some changed I would have personally made. Also whenever me and my buddies play with our CSM armies, we give all CSM units (marines, bezerkerz, raptors, etc) 2 wound 2 attack models. A lot more fun to play when all *SPACE MARINE, (power armored) units 2 or more wounds. Games last longer and is a lot more balanced and fluffier. Could go on but just gonna leave this here lol
The worst part of 8th edition is just the simplification of options and units. I want to be able to make my daemon prince a more powerful psyker by buying psyker levels. I want to be able to take sorcerers and chaos lords with my death guard - but some fucking idiot decided that it’d be a good idea not to give them toughness 5 or disgustingly resilient. Why would the death guard have just a normal dude lead them?
*Some stuff takes a lot to kill. That's important to remember, because one moment your guys will be around for an entire game, but then you play against Inquisition/Tyranids/Harlequins and your dudes drop like flies and you're tabled before an hour passes. Tyranids were especially egregious in this regard.
@@paulyg405 Tyranids in 2nd edition were pretty broken, their monsters were absurdly strong and durable, and their special rules, such as "Jones is acting Strangely" could wipe out enemy squads easily. I say they were especially egregious because that rule could kill anything you had to deal with their Carnifex, and then it would solo your army.
@@paulyg405 Yeah, that's exactly what I was getting at in my original comment. Tyranids weren't the only ones who could wipe out the enemy very easily, they just had more ways of doing it.
I have commented on price in numerous videos, hence why I didn't want to cover it in this particular one. Further, I feel that price isn't a factor in the editions themselves transitioning, unlike in Warhammer Fantasy Battles where it directly correlates with the 8th to AOS change. If you are interested in price comparisons, there's a whole playlist on this channel labelled "Informative" where I go into the minutia, right down to shipping costs and taxes.
Necrons were the last codex of 5th (I believe 6th was released just a month later). One of the biggest offenders of that codex, Catacomb Command Barge. Here's an A13 vehicle, transporting a warscythe wielding overlord, that your opponent chooses where your hits land (the character or the vehicle), and it has chariot rules (can fight in CC, gets 3 free swings by just flying over you) before the Chariot vehicle type was given to anyone else. Should you bring down the vehicle, you still have to deal with the angry Overlord and his massive can-opener.
Pop it with a melta and even if you don't kill it, the thing goes down to AV 11, making it much easier to handle. The Command Barge was never much of a problem in my book, just remember to hit it with at least on heavy weapon so your autocannons (and similar, assault cannons and missile launchers work too) can finish it off with little issue.
@@lich109 yes, though that really only applied to the 3 weeks the codex played in 5th. With 6th edition (and the release of the chariot type and its rules) the general rule was that heavy arms gets directed at the embarked overlord (since he'd only take 1 wound and has an invul, unless you hit him with S10) while the small arms goes to the barge.
@@lich109 in 6th they let the target decide where each weapon hit a chariot. This usually meant 7 and lower were usually placed on the ride, 8 and 9 to the overlord, and 10 went to the ride again (no sense losing an overlord to instant death). Chariots were weird and this interaction was one of the primary complaints. The other being that only 3 armies had access to them. 1 being a named character, 2 being daemons that either weren't played (slanesh) or had better things to spend points on (tzeench). Sorry if the original post was worded badly. Was taking it from the perspective of you targeting the barge (and the necron player being "your opponent" chooses where the hits go).
@@Shippo89 I'll admit I needed to bring out my book since it's been a while, but whoever you were playing against was a filthy liar, here's the direct quote from the book: "Shooting at Chariots: Chariots re shot at in exactly the sameway as other vehicles - the rider cannot be targeted separately from his Chariot. *Shooting attacks must always be resolved against the chariot.* " I've put in bold the important part at the end, the target doesn't have a choice on whether or not it's the chariot or character who gets shot, you always had to shoot and destroy the chariot before you could even try to harm the character.
The reason why each army has a special name for their USR because it means balancing becomes more of a scalpel process where there might be a specific problem with how one faction interacts with a rule and not another. 8th edition has some issues, mainly with a lack of in depth terrain rules, and sometimes there have been really dominant lists, but by far it's the most balanced 40k has ever been.
Sounds like the game got Ward-rolled ....sadly I had high hopes for the 8th edition, even got some friends back in the game and some others start collecting miniatures... Then it got more and more like a TCG, where only wombocombos mattered. So we got back to 6th-ed-Whfb
The game has certainly never been perfect but within a few weeks of 8th edition releasing I said to my friend, someone who I've been playing Warhammer with for the last 15 years: "I can't wait for 9th edition." Before it released a lot of people I know we're saying things like "As long as they don't AOS 40k (i.e. dumb it right down) I'll be happy with 8th" and quite a few of them were happy with it... but the other day I bought Wrath and Rapture, which comes with the AOS rules and the 40k rules... The AOS rulebook has got to be like 4 times *longer* than the 40k rulebook. And somehow those same people won't admit to me that it was AOS'd. And to top it off the things they cite as improvements (e.g. simplification and play-ability)' have been absolutely ruined by the constant releases and updates to the rules. Assuming you even agree that adding die roll modifiers back into the system and abandoning USRs is a simplification in the first place.
Nice video and no there is no mistakes in what you say. You could have push more on the 8th and the stratagem plague. I like the 8th core rules but less is not always the best. Players tend to do a lot of it`s not stated that I can't in the rules. And 2 years after we have so much rules every where it's insane. If I'm not mistaken on the edition, in the 4th, all Space marines founding chapters had special rules/units like the Iron Hands tactical sergeant could put a terminator armor. It was quite nice at the time especially outside tournament. IMO It's more legion specific than the 8th codex supplement with just one data sheet.
@Evan Rogers Buffs doesn't bother me so much. Each armies has the same kind of buff. It's really the stratagem that are annoying because there is too much of them nearly 200 for the spaces marines and with 15-20 for each armies for 23 factions it's 400-450 more. With nearly 40 codices or factions supplement in 2 years nobody can keep up with that and it looks like it will be on a 2 years renewal ... it's nearly 3k $ of books. That is why we are turning to the Horus Heresy, 5 book at 300$ if you don't want the fluff and you are all good. During 2d edition some character were so over powered it was insane. I don't think I've tasted them all but Ragnar Blackmane was one of them, and I recall one that could fly or teleport himself to whip out an entire army. In the 3rd edition the problem was the Dark Eldar general with the 2+ save and combat drogue that decimated all armies. In the 8th only the Custodes shield captain on jet bike is a plague with all the re-roll ... is nearly unkillable. And there is enough, IMO, weapon that can target characters in the game.
Sorry 4th Edition is so much better than 5th, but in general agree with your comments, just disagree with the breaking point. 5th lacked the terrain rules that made the game a war game. 4th was a still a "company" game, 5th turned every game to Apocalypse. Flyers were stupid additions outside of Apoc, period. True LOS was a joke and helped to ruin what little terrain rules there were. Regardless, 5th was my own personal break with the game.
4th is the best edition hands done. True line of sight was the biggest travesty, there is a reason why most other game systems don't use it and make use of abstract area terrain. Also balance flew out the window with 5th.
I'm a huge fan of 3rd and 4th, but 5th had the greater diversity of factions and such, it's just a shame about Matt Ward and Phil Kelly running a train on it.
Its not rocket science, lol, more kids with more money, more adult nerds also with more money. ;[] *SLAANESH* FREE *SLAANESH* MASSAGE *SLAANESH* ... and more pervs with more money.
Because the game is in the best state it's ever been and the support GW are giving to the game with FAQs etc is fantastic. People just struggle with change I think
Ooooooooh what broke 40k? Now I feel like Aslan telling the Witch about how not to recite the words to me for I was there when it was written hahahahahahahahaha! Started in 2007, a month after the 4th ed. CSM book was released on the dying months of 4th ed. My main edition was 5th and it wasn't the edition itself that hurt the players but more the external balance that did it. I agree with that point. I disagree with the 'unkillable tank' problem Tanks were harder but there was always a way to get them blown up like MC's* or Meltaguns. They were highly rated back then. The issue was external balance. It was clear with Draigowing and Dark Eldar that the dev's never really spoke to eachother to playtest the game. You also miss out Cruddace with the Leaf blower lists of 9 Vendettas and such that packed all the Lascannons that butchers most games they entered. Ward was most prolific who had hurt the game with the clear favoritism but this was not uncommon with rest of them who showed clear favouritism with certain armies like Cruddace with guard and Kelly with Dark Eldar. If someone were to homebrew and re-balance all these and also made CSM more flavorsome then that would be the edition that people would be satisfied with. Only thing I majorly disagree in this video was the Necrons, yes they were tough but the only real thing they had for them was the Waithspam list and Mindshackle Scarabs (which I never mention as that was just so thought-provokingly bad I still feel my blood boil over that item of wargear). 6th was as you descried was ok. I personally didn't enjoy the random charge range and Overwatch. Flyers and Invis was also a pain and not worth making specific rules for, but i feel this is where the tone of the game shifted. No longer was a game meant to simulate the heart and climax of a long battle or war where warlords duelled to decide the fate of a world but instead they crammed in every genre of TT Wargame to simulate an entire war in one game, from challenges to Titans.The power spikes still went up and this is when players really became bitter. 7th was a death knell. At least in my area this is when people just stopped playing the game because it just caused too arguments with the power spikes, Half of our player base were Craftworld Eldar and from there the playerbase collapsed in on itself because no one who didn't play them damn elves wanted to fight against Invisible Waithknights and the Eldar players were bored of playing against the same lists over and over again, because their lists would be idetic with a different paintjob. Only satifiaction I got out of that ediution was FW's Lost and teh Damnned book and the Trator Legions Supplement. At last my Night lords could have something to shout about, even if it couldn't still compare to the Craftworlds, I could still feel that flavor return to my army. I personally enjoy 8th, but I'm worn out and bitter from the competitive side of things. The flavor for my Legion that I had in 7th is lost now, gone to a trait that has about 2% effect in a semi-competitive game. Competitively-wise I feel as though my night Lords are right back at square one with the 4th ed. codex, so I don't bother anymore. I just paint and play the odd game with very like-minded friends who are also not interested in playing the game competitively, but who just wanna play rule of cool and I'm a lot happier for it. I used to be a right miserable bastard in previous editions (and you can tell in my earlier videos too) and used to go on crusades on Dakka Dakka on why my CSM are just shite. The game was horrible to me when I felt I had to compete and 'keep up' with friends when all i really wanted to do was to just play the models I liked. *Monstrous Creatures (Personally I loved Walkers in that edition. I loved dreadnoughts as they were one of the main things keeping me in 40k. War Coffins are cool!).
Age of Sigmar killed the points system in 2015 but eventually brought points back. Age of Sigmar killed Gotrek Gurnisson along with the Old World in 2015 but eventually they brought Gotrek back. Age of Sigmar banished Slaanesh in 2015 but eventually brought Slaanesh back. Age of Sigmar abandonned classic armies like Dwarfs, High Elves and Imperium in 2015 but eventually they brought those armies back with CIties of Sigmar. The less Age of Sigmar you get in Age of Sigmar, the better the game gets.
@@jj_see_film Cities of Sigmar also has great artwork on the cover. It shows how much better the AoS artwork is now compared to the old Stormcast Eternals battletome cover: whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Battletome:_Stormcast_Eternals_(2017) Fantasy always had awesome artwork. In the beginning AoS art was abysmally bad.
Ah, the wonderful 1st edition Rulebook, where the God Emperor of Mankind just worked himself to death...Yup, no Horus Heresy, No epic duels on the bridge of the Vengeful Spirit, He just worked until his body gave out on him...
*"We can pick and chose what to play.. and we can create our own armies.. our own worlds.. our own WARS.. or we can live in the past."* - Diar, aspiring chaos champion. ---------------------------------------- I've been around since before *Rogue Trader* , over the decades we ignore whatever GW decides to do thats stupid. :) Nothing new, but 'corporate' GW is a different beast. I wonder what is next. Anyways modern edition 40K rules can't handle my 4 army chaos warband because its NOT children friendly. Ooops. Good thing i don't play with GW... lol
Of course I get into 40k just as everything that made it cool dies. It seems I’m cursed to always be late to the party, or maybe my curse is to always find things I enjoy, only to have them go to shit shortly after. At least there’s 30k ( for now)
Massive disappointment. The more I find out about how the game used to be I wonder if there is even any point in following it. If the aesthetics were still the same I probably would have stayed interested and ignored the new fluff. Found out about 30k a good while ago. Had me super excited. The stuff looked insanely good to be. This was right before the currency change/price hike and the last chance to buy. I kept on going back to look but so much was gone and I couldn’t justify the price.
I disagree about 8th being a poor version of the game. It's the most balanced system they've made so far and that's not my opinion. It's based on stats from the competitive meta. I enjoy the stratagem system as well. I can understand the USR gripe and theres no need to do it, and many of the abilities have been standardised but if you want a more balanced system then you need more standard abilities and stats. The factions have still kept some individuality without one faction being majorly OP. Having said that It'll be interesting to see how all the psychic awakening plays, which I think is basically edition 8.2
I will talk about my reasoning behind why I think 8th is highly flawed at a later date, and do remember, I still think 3rd ed was the best for balance, so I'm biased in that leaning.
"[8th Ed. is the most balanced.] That's not my opinion. It's based on stats from the competitive meta." I'm sorry but that's bullshit. The competitive meta has included lists like the unbeatable Forgeworld lists, that only became beatable when new unbeatable lists came out, and any armies not attached to these lists just get shafted.
@@lich109 the key point you have made is 'has included'. many ITC or GT events don't include forge world units. Forge world is also only really used if your opponent agrees to it (GW events will normally allow forge world). I'm just talking bog standard 40k. The stuff that gets assessed and points adjusted. You should watch some of the almost pro gaming stuff he has video of statistics that shows how balanced the game was (I say was because of the new marine meta).
@@jamesclarke5331 If we're looking at the meta while ignoring part of the game then we're not given an accurate picture of the meta as a whole. Anything can look balanced and fair if you just ignore the parts you don't like, even though those parts are entirely legal to use and play according to GW.
Nothing! More popular than ever, 8th edition is one of the best because GW have been tweaking the rules to suit evryone. There will always be people who could find a problem but overall players say they are happy with the lore/ the rules/ the models! If there is anything that broke the fans its the price of hobby!!!
Popularity of the hobby is a hard thing to quantify. It probably has more players than ever, true. However, it's also not a niche hobby anymore, in fact all tabletop has undergone massive growth, so it's hard to attribute it solely to 8th edition. On top of that, the population in general has gone up how much over the 32 years 40k has existed? Just by that sheer percentage alone it will be higher. Lastly, the passion the consumer has for the product may or may not be higher than in the past.
I find with more people involved it makes for more active and more intresting community! I speak frequently to all sorts of people new and old members of the 40k community and find most people (fans) enjoy all aspects of the hobby, modelling/painting, the lore, playing the game itself both narrative or competitive. I guess my point is even though a small % of people call it broken and bitch about rule changes or how each edition played overall 40k is on the up and up!!!
@@Duppyman695 In media, you're not just competing with other model companies. You're competing with everything else: movies, video games, action figures, comic books-in essence, GW has to engage the customer more than any of these other things if they want 40K or AoS to succeed. They don't even try. Their models are too expensive for kids today, most of whom would rather buy toys or video games. They barely have a toe-hold on action video games, they have some good RTS games, and they have a grand total of..........one movie. Sure, there's an entire library of novels, but most sci-fi series have that too. That, and they have more games, comics, and even films. Even Halo has movies now. Movies-as in plural. Oh, and the comic company they've contracted to make 40K comic books? SJW-led Marvel, the bane of comic readers everywhere.
Totally agree on price, way to expensive! Dont agree with anything else GW is naw one of the U.K biggest exports, making ridiculous amounts of money in models and books alone! They have been offered to do live action movies/series but if its bad it could effect sales of the models, only naw 10 years on is there going to be a live action TV series.
Ah, so is THIS is where are the haters go to talk about how much they hate a game that they "stopped playing years ago" but still actively seek out content? The comments on your channel are HILARIOUS. I could season my steaks for life with all the salt. Boiling rose coloured fanboy tears are wonderful for making pasta, as well!
![[UA] Team Vitality проти NAVI | IEM Cologne 2024](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/wttO1zVRTC0/mqdefault.jpg)
As a joke, I have chosen to create a background I think really suits the current game. I couldn't decide on any visual them which really suited the video, other than perhaps images of the rulebooks over the years, but honestly it's not worth it. This is a listening episode, not a watching episode, and hopefully you all enjoy it.
I can tolerate game imbalance. The game can be artificially rebalanced once powergamers are taken out of the equation. What makes my blood boil is when the lore butchering makes it's way to tabletop.
After seeing the new Incursors and the shoehorning of vanilla Agressors into the Deathwing I'm crossing fingers for GW to stop with primaris. Maybe not now, maybe not tomorrow, maybe not in a decade, but Emperor I do hope someday we will get to escape from MKX spec-ops look back into the classic aesthetic of MKVII _equila_-pattern marines.
The look where almost every battle-brother could be unique if you took the time to customize his markings, armor pattern and weaponry. Where the history of the chapter was visible on the models themselves in the form of Heresy-era armor patterns and relic vehicles such as FW Deimos pattern predators and MKIV dreadnoughts, not just a different paintjob.
They should've done what they did with chaos: update the models. Not replace them with a version that lacks the baroque asthetic and sometimes even the lore of the originals. They could've done with the ressources they commited to the Numarines.
But GW has spend waay to much in the new dudes, and it will keep shifting away from knightly gothic in favour of tacticool as time progresses. We can only hope their unique charm will be given back to them someday.
The Emperor Protects.
The two things that got me in 40k is admech amd primaris marines. Rule of cool. Alot of the other things look hideous. I love battletech but the models look awful. The lore means little to me bc 40k lore is a hob cob of others work and isnt very thought out in a lore bible lile other IPs and books use. The primaris creation is much better then the Emps creation stories. Btw I dont like GW. I dont buy or go to there stores. I just think primairs and admech look better and I am happy they are better than the mini marines.
@The Martial Lord of Loyalty Im not telling anyone to like it. Im not a fanboy. If I stop liking something I just go somewhere else. Star wars and marvel comics come to mind. Many video games. I did some research and GW has never been a good company to the consumers. I think its bc its a UK company. That and the fans of such hobbys usually have no spine. I could live without primaris but I wouldnt have ever got in it without that and kill team. I have a army background and so they appeal to me. Dark Angels are my favorite and I can kitbash candles and capes.
1st edition is good if you have a 3rd party set up the game, think of it like a GM, 2nd edition really just needs a point cap on Hero's, no assassins, no vortex grenades... not played much beyond 3rd edition though. Warbands from the first edition chaos books can be fun with or without cheese. Wish they would do an edition where they just tweaked the previous edition though, but that does not sell new products I guess. Still a toss up between first and second for me, no other edition has even inspired me to play.
Still play 5th core rules, 6th actually killed the game in my area, index 8th makes a fine engine for play epic just by halving all the ranges.
I'm still salty over the Squats and Dogs of War armies no longer being supported.
GW: ''Cheers for your money, but we're not going to support them anymore, see ya!'' Bastards.
Dogs of war were so cool...
@Sassy Saddles They REALLY aren't. Those are Ratlings. Squats are space dwarves.
The 3rd to 4th transitions were pretty well done, and over quite some time. They first released an expansion called "Codex: City Fight" (2001) which made the case for why you might use more abstracted rules. Templates were done away with close combat was simplified and a number of other changes were made. Unfortunately cityfight melees devolved into ablative wounds on powerfist characters. They then released 'trial' rules for close combat which still had many of the optimisations, but meant that more builds for melee units would be viable, which went on to be the basis for 4th edition. A number of the (dumped) ideas that were raised during this phase of experimentation through Chapter Approved, resurfaced later. Including running, not using templates at all, and various different line of sight and wound allocation tweaks. In fact, overall you'll find that wound allocation is probably the area that 40k has struggled with the most (it's had the most changes over editions, including reversing previous decisions). As a long-time chaos player, it's interesting/frustrating to see some of the longer phase changes to how marines worked. In late 2nd and 3rd they were very distinct forces. One force had newer technology, less randomness, and a lot less flexibility (space marines). Plasma would go on cool-down after firing, your unit sizes were generally fixed/limited, but you had anti-grav, assault marines, etc. Chaos in contrast always had variable unit sizes, it's plasma weapons were more dangerous but fired every round, and the characters had better access to weird daemon stuff and psyker abilities. You could also bolster your forces with daemons. Fast forward to the later editions and marines gradually absorbed all the benefits of being chaos. Grey hunters were basically better chaos marines for cheaper, daemons got moved to their own codex, and champions of chaos were just evil versions of space marine heroes, usually with worse rules. The entire "chapters with specialities" rulesets were built for chaos, then given to marines and withheld from chaos. Rules that were developed for chaos (hit and run for example), were removed from chaos units and given for free to marines. Overally, I think the designers struggle to decide what Chaos is now, in 40k. If they are legions, then make them legions. If they are daemonic, give them cool daemon powers and better psykers. If they are renegade marines, then just make them mirror-match marines.
Damn good job, I could NOT have explained this so succinctly. +1
One thing wrong here, the 'Chapters with specialities' idea wasn't built for Chaos. It started with Index Astartes, back before the 3.5 Chaos Dex, where both Chaos Legions and Codex-less 1st Founding Chapters getting special rules.
While Chaos have overall been hard done by (most critically in 6th), it's not as unrelentingly negative as you make it appear. Rules migrate all over the place across the edition, from most of the old IA rules for Scars just becoming the normal rules for bikers, to fleet starting out as an Eldar exclusive USR, it's just the way of things. What really hurt Chaos was not getting a 5th edition book, and being early in 6th, before the paradigm shift of that edition. The 4th edition Chaos book was far from bad (although the loss of customisation was unfortunate), and was very well received at release (at least among my playing groups at the time) and opinion only turned when 5th rolled out the Ward Dexes (which still had far, far less Chapter Customisation than the 4th ed Marine book).
@@efffvss Sorry, you are correct. When I said "Chapters with Specialties", I meant "build your own chapters". The idea of allowing users to select bonuses and advantages. The 3.5 codex allowed this through veteran skills, with various limitations, and this was probably the last time that regular chaos space marines were an effective troops choice. The 4th edition codex was good for one reason, it gave chaos a 1 point discount to chaos space marines while retaining CCW and BPs, and Bolters. However the tradeoff was the loss of all useful daemons from the codex (replaced by a useless 'generic' daemon entry), the loss of scalability on characters, the loss of rules representing legions, and the loss of all veteran abilities. In effect, chaos traded some marginal benefits to overall efficiency at the expense of all the flavour, nuance, and most of the differentiating factors. I agree, chaos has been hurt by going early. GW has not managed power creep well, and Chaos has had fairly early 4th/5th, 6th/7th, and 8th books.
I have to say that I liked the grimdark theme better back in the day when it was less cliched, and less self aware. The fact that the Warhammer community team are now saying things like ‘that’s so grimdark’ makes me feel like the setting has kind of become a parody of itself.
It very much has become a parody of itself. Sad, but true.
They started taking themselves too serious, forgetting that the core of the setting was a rip-off of eighties pop culture with a healthy dose of British humour mixed in.
I too think that it has become too serious and more sanitized. I like my Warhammer (both versions) ugly, gonzo and grim
Rose colored glasses.
Philip Yeah, because I guess being cliched and overly self aware is far better than the creative and organic approaches of the past...
It's more so stalemate predictable because grimdark has to mean hopeless for everybody at all times apparently.
The fact they removed USR's and have hundreds of names for the same rule is absolute cancer
we still use the phrases: Deep Strike, Feel No Pain, Look Out SIr etc. in our 8ed games with friends, despite the fact there are no such phrases in official rulebook.
@@skywatcheradept This actually happens in my area too. Everyone just deepstrikes, has a fnp of +x or lookouts their commanders.
Oh shit.... they did in 8th!? WTF dumb idea
Come join Heresy (if you aren't already)
False. The whole point of special rules is to make your unit/faction feel special. USRs are the complete opposite of this.
40k 8th: Re-Roll edition
40k 8th: Everything has a bazillion wounds because everything dies so quickly Edition
40k 8th: RNG card game Edition
I miss 40k tbh.
It's so bad for that shit! It's all about maximising re-rolls in the competitive meta!
8th edition is the best
@@DownUnderWarboss it was certainly better than 9th.
9th: "Every unit has - 1 to hit, - 1 damage -, rerolls to hit, double shots, free transhuman physiology ITC normie lowtest" Edition
@@dominionwargaming8638 9th Ed is so wildly over the top, as you alluded to. I got out in 8th. Got back in for 9th after hearing how balanced it was. I'm making my exit again 6 months back and gonna do HH now that its gonna be affordable. 9th is so wild that a unit with a 2+/4+ and 5 wounds is relatively weak. You need to supplement with strategems and relics to even survive a character to turn 3.
As well as the (important) gameplay changes that you mentioned, GW just stopped caring about the background material (mostly excluding novels/stories). Examples of this include renaming armies, the new background writers not being familiar with the 40K background and so breaking 40K background rules, putting the bare minimum of material in codexes introducing silly troops or armies (cough, Primaris Marines, Sisters of Silence & Adeptus Mechanicus, all breaking the background rules).... Honestly if the people paid to do so won't care about 40K why should we? A franchise differs with time and it seems that all the best creators/maintainers of 40K lived on Cadia.
I am just curious, what lore-breaking do you find in Sisters of Silence and Mechanicus?
@@J_Warral Sure, if there is any confusion then please let me know. The Emperor gave important laws to the Mechanicus, one is "do not use A.I" (so don't use robots). Servitors were created/used for this very reason (to avoid robots). Servitors are pretty much living, cybernetic creatures so no A.I, merely creatures (humans usually) who have had their brains manipulated with & then any needed devices placed into the body. Most/All things with A.I are enemies to the Imperium but guess what? Mechanicus are now using robots and the A.I. that accompanies them. Also the tech-priest leader Belisarius Cawl has out shined the genius Emperor by creating better versions of his (arguably) greatest creations, the space marines. Also I'm pretty sure that altering space marine genes is forbidden (but I could be wrong about that), space marines would kill most people who tried it. Cawl broke the other Mechanicus laws to do so such as "do not create new technology" and "do not use alien/foreign technology." Honestly, Cawl would of been killed for his actions (or turned into a servitor) by the old staff but this was ignored so Primaris Marines could exist. Anyway, (nitpick now) Mechanicus are allowed to have armies however Mechanicus was mainly supposed to rely on Astra Militarum (Imperial Guard/Imperial Navy) to protect them. Other factions of the Imperium has been attacked for having too large a military force.
So we have Mechanicus using A.I. (illegal) and an unpunished tech-priest leader who created new technology (illegal), used alien technology (illegal), used very old, unknown technology (illegal) and altered space marines genes (illegal probably). Cawl is also smarter than the Emperor it seems...
Regarding Sisters of Silence, they are all "blanks" in the Imperium, creatures who drain psychic power from their environment. Blanks are so rare that more than one small, single army could never exist. Blanks are really, really rare. There are more than trillions of psykers for every blank, and there are billions of normal people for every psyker. (Those aren't the exact number but I'm sure that you get the point) To be a Sister of Silence, one has to be female so the tiny number of blanks-to-be-sisters is then halved. At the end of the day, the sisters don't have the numbers to be armies Also mentioned earlier the Sisters of Silence drain psychic power from their environment however the Sisters of Silence live near the Emperor. That Emperor who is reliant on psychic power to survive. I don't know how writers didn't notice this but in the background, the sisters who "help protect" the Emperor are reducing his growth and protection.
So there are not enough Sisters for armies and they are poorly placed/located. Their bodies doing more to kill the Emperor than help him.
(Sidenote: The Sisters of Silence occupy, control and guard the Black Ships (which pick up and hold illegal psykers) however before the Sisters of Silence were created by GW, it was the Sisters of Battle (Adepta Sororitas) who did this)
I hope that helps, that's just from the top of my head so I might have forgotten something.
@@blindlobster you are kinda wrong and right about Mechanicus, and TOTALLY wrong about Silent Sisterhood.
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First of all, Emperor is not some kind of overblown rule-jerk who follows the rules himself. Yes, he made rules for common men... and then broke those rules. He dealt with xenos, dealt with AIs, maybe dealt with Chaos Gods. Emperor is a man who gets things done - everything is just an instrument and a means to an end. Custodes wielded forbidden technology, First Legion (Dark Angels) wielded forbidden technology, pre-Heresy Mechanicum wielded pretty much AIs and used tons of "forbidden" technology, Emperor was a close ally of "heretical" Terrawat Clan (go google Leviathan dreds and Sicaran Arcus).
Because for the Emperor, EVERYTHING is but a means to an end. Anything is justified, as long as it serves mankind. Also, Cawl was on the original team of the researchers who worked on Astartes project with the Emperor, he had records from Emperor's own facilities. Remember, Emperor didn't make the most perfect soldiers ever - he made the most cost-efficient solution, the Astartes. The Primaris, we know, are not cost-efficient as soldiers, so hence why maybe Emperor did not push them into production and development?
So yes, whilst rules apply to the common man... we all know, how for men of power in Imperium, rules aren't exactly written in unbreakable stone. The only issue I see with the Cawl is that he came out of nowhere - they might've given us some more background, built up the rumors over the years about some secret project going on with clearance above even High Lords of Terra and etc.
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Now, onto Silent Sisterhood. If you read Horus Heresy: Inferno, Silent Sisterhood ALWAYS could wield small army-sized formations (well, elite-40K kind of armies, hundreds or few thousands). In the history of the Silent Sisterhood, there is given an example of an entire planet that was inhabited by the Blanks. It was found in a random accident, when an all-female regiment had to quell psykers uprising and out of all forces involved, those women stood untouched by Warp's power. Adepta Sororitas never were involved with the Black Ships - it was Inquisition.
Also, Silent Sisterhood does not live near the Emperor. Even if they did, it is not a problem - Blanks have a limited range of their abilities and even the most powerful of them affect no more than a hundred meters in a bubble. So as long as you keep them a few hundred meters away from the Emperor at least, it is fine. But it's not even a problem since Silent Sisterhood operated out of Citadel Somnus on Luna before Horus Heresy and was scattered all over the galaxy after the Heresy. Though they're allowed to be present in the Imperial Palace, they do not reside there permanently.
Also, you're talking suspiciously like you think, that GW invented Silent Sisterhood only recently? Aren't you a newfag yourself, by any chance? Because Sisters of Silence were there like... since f*cking 90s? When the whole Custodes and Emperor/Horus duel and Heresy stuff was established, we had Silent Sisterhood. In fact, they're a force MASSIVELY present on the famous picture where line of Talons of the Emperor stands (with The Man in the middle).
I don´t know about the sisters but I do about the admech.
First of all impovenemt / making of new technolgie is not outright illegal. It is just that many tech priests think that all technology is holy and therefore tinkering with it is heresy.
There are forgeworlds, like ryza, who believe improving technolgy, though.
Second of all I never heard of the mechanicus using A.I on any large scale.
Are you refering to kastelans?
They are basically automatons with a slot for a floppy disc that the datasmith changes to choose the protocols. And while they come close to A.I they are far to simple for indipendant thinking and actually have "fleshy- bits"
It is true however that Cawl is just great at everything.
He was mentioned in the "old lore" as a tech priest who spends his time trying to improve plasma weaponry and make it more compact.
And btw he is Arch-Dominus and not fabricator general so he isn´t even the leader of the mechanicus
@@J_Warral While the Emperor was standing he could be flexible with the rules, however once he was stuck on the Golden Throne... those rules became written in unbreakable stone.
I'm sorry but I haven't read Horus Heresy: Inferno about the Blank planet. But at the Emperor;s state, it is foolish to risk the Emperor with a fan, let alone things that can affect a planet. Why be uncomfortable when there are other forces that can do the job just as well as SOS. If I threw a grenade with the pin still connected, would you be happy while it happened. It's not worth the risk...
Anyway, I wasn't aware that the Sisters of Silence were around since the 90's. Their codex came out in 2017, what else have they been in? I tend to avoid Horus Heresy, I'm not really a space marine guy.
Yes, Adepta Sororitas were involved with the Black Ships when they worked for/with the Inquisition, (usually Ordo Hereticus) It has been mentioned in the "Witch Hunters" codex and the Sisters of Battle omnibus (and the 3rd ed rulebook I think)
Regarding the tech-priests, remember that Mechanicum and Mechanicus are not the same. Yes, one turned into the other but their opinions changed over time. Once the Emperor/Omnissah was sitting, the Imperium became less forgiving.
I'm not new myself (3rd ed) however as the new (lesser) material has been appearing the 40K background, this material has been slightly pushing me away. The novels have mainly stopped me from leaving.
I really do think the consumer shares part of the blame. So many 40k players are willing to buy models they don't like just so they can use them in a stronger list to win games. It's so bad that many players don't even bother to paint their armies before using them in games. I would rather these players buy and use chess pieces to proxy their armies, so at least they are more true to what they are doing and not buying permission to play a tabletop game. Something feels very lame about fielding grey plastic, that you don't even care enough to paint, just so you can see your power creep fantasy play out. Any profit seeking company can see a clear path to revenue from here. Overpowered units sell unfortunately. I was proud to see the overwhelming resistance to Guilliman though.
100% I think people are trying to blame it all on GW . I undertsand why though , if youre spending $100 on a couple of OP models why should you be at fault ?
Why would you say 3rd was where the true fluff/background was set? 3rd codexes didn't give a stuff about background, being little more than pamphlet sized rules lists. It should be 2nd. One thing that stands out comparing for example Orks 2nd to Orks 8th is that the old one was obviously written by history nerds, while in 8th there's no understanding of the depth of time, or even really how a time-line entry works. Seriously it devolves into a mini novel in the middle of the time line.
Only thing 3rd had over 2nd was the addition of Tau and Necrons
To me, 2. edition was the best version. Yes, it could get clunky when you played 3000+ points, but come on... This is a skirmish game, not a mass combat game.
It also had by far the best fluff. The craziness of 1. edition had been toned down, but there was still a very clear eighties vibe of 2000AD mixed with Doctor Who mixed with Lord of the Rings mixed with a healthy doze of Monty Python. It was grim. It was dark. But there was a bit of humour there, preventing it from getting too much. Later on they started taking themselves way too serious (essentially forgetting that 40K was originally a tongue-in-cheek rip-off of a lot of eighties pop culture) and we got the grimdark-with-skulls mess we have now.
3. edition and onwards never really caught my interested, and I found myself playing less and less as the years went by. But what broke me in the end wasn't the rules, it was the price. It became more and more obvious that the sales department had taken over, and with constant price hikes and an ever increasing army size, I simply reached a point where the game was no longer worth the time and money I had to spend on it.
Modern 40K simply doesn't interest me. The game is way too big to be played in 28 mm... The models themselves are way to be to be called 28 mm... There is no regard for previous fluff... Black Library is churning out tons of bad sci-fi pulp fiction, written by authors who don't understand the setting, and don't seem to care much about it anyway...
I certainly won't call 2. edition a good game (Games Workshop has made very few good games, rule-wise...), but at least the company cared back then. Sadly, that time is long gone now.
i prefure the more serious 40k. tongue-in-cheak is fun, but i find it gets old much faster then grimdark.
So many truths are spoken in this video, well done. And thank you for speaking up.
What broke both games: the introduction of Magic The Gathering in the early nineties, the introduction of World of Warcraft in 2004. Corporatist driven decisions were always a massive problem too, with the strange idea to have GW shops in every city- competing locally with mixed toy and fantasyshops.
8th edition has taken 40k to an all new level.
Nice history stroll, mate. 👍
I started playing 40k with 2nd ed way back in the 90s myself. Oh, the nostalgia!
I have to say I actually really like 7th ed and never even bothered with starting 8th.
BUT we don't use the tactical objectives crap and are a group of friendly fun players with some sense of moderation, so for us it works just fine.
Love the content! Keep up the good work maca! One thing have you ever heard of chapter master Valrack (Hopefully I spelt it right). If hadn't just think fortnut crowd but amped up to 11. I think you'd get a kick from his channel.
Marshall McCann or maybe leave him to state his opinions and us to state ours
Valrak is the personification of youtube cancer. I just wish it was possible to unsubscribe from a channel more than once
@@danwilkinson5239 I 100% agree, there is literally no better way of stating that.
@@danwilkinson5239 I mean nobody is forcing you to watch him
I first started playing right at the start of 4th and stopped before 5th before coming back as an adult a year into 8th and it didnt even feel like the same game...
This is why Im basically just a specialist games player now, and also AoS feels a lot more accessible than [I think it was] 6th ed fantasy!
And I really missed the metal models when I got back into the hobby
Wow it turns out I got into and out of 40K at the perfect times. Started playing when 3rd edition was a little 2 months old and stopped playing literally 3 days before the announcement of 5th edition.
I started playing with 2nd edition...then left for many years. I came back for 7th edition...GAH!! Luckily I was a Marine player, eh? So moving to 8th was a genuine breath of fresh air. Maybe this is why I don't crap on the latest edition as much as others...I never got to play the HOLY 5th edition. It sounded great. My point is, 8th is not as bad as everyone makes out. I don't compare it to an edition that is so loved by all. The rule set of 8th (of course in my opinion) is stunningly efficient. At first, I was really worried that the rules would simplify...I liked the complexity of 7th making it a hard game to master...and memorise! :D 8th continues to surprise me with it's depth. Yes, power creep will always be a thing as it sells models...as you say...but then, it keeps things exciting...I don't see this as frustrating. It's constantly mixing up the armies. It's only an amount of time before it's time for your army to get a load of love...and then nerfed a few weeks later (hehe)...but I think that's fun. My lists have evolved with the rules and updates. Compared to the RIDICULOUS creep in 7th...I think this edition is doing a fine job at keeping the armies relatively balanced.
"Because Fyou that's why", never laughed so hard. I feel that pain!
50 % Sigmar
20% Texting and driving
15% Imperial soup
10% Salt
5% Pay to win
Gotta love how they hiked the price on the Black Reach box after people bought a lot of it. It went from $75US to over $110. Maybe more. Don't remember. Probably their best idea, cheap, snap models that you and a buddy could get, split both boxes and buy a few extra hq models for a playable beginner army. Nope, GW wasn't having that. You will NOT get a playable army of over 250points for less then $150 for EACH person, and definitely without the rules, that cost extra.
Primaris marines have broken it. I kind of feel that despite the primaris marines looking great and all that they are the thin end of the obsolecence wedge. I enjoy redoing my old RTB01 models etc etc but how long will it be until they just redo armies so nobody can use their old collection for anything?
It doesn't bother me if they update the models. The new CSM were great, as mediocre as the release was.
What makes my blood boil is the lore butchering.
After seeing the new Incursors and the shoehorning of vanilla Agressors into the Deathwing I'm crossing fingers for GW to stop with primaris. Maybe not now, maybe not tomorrow, maybe not in a decade, but Emperor I do hope someday we will get to escape from MKX spec-ops look back into the classic aesthetic of MKVII _equila_-pattern marines.
The look where almost every battle-brother could be unique if you took the time to customize his markings, armor pattern and weaponry. Where the history of the chapter was visible on the models themselves in the form of Heresy-era armor patterns and relic vehicles such as FW Deimos pattern predators and MKIV dreadnoughts, not just a different paintjob.
They should've done what they did with chaos: update the models. Not replace them with a version that lacks the baroque asthetic and sometimes even the lore of the originals.
But GW has spend waay to much in the new dudes, and it will keep shifting away from knightly gothic in favour of tacticool as time progresses. We can only hope their unique charm will be given back to them someday.
The Emperor Protects.
@@fernandorivera4719 Its not coming back
@@wyattarthur5275 Plastic sisters happened though. And GW doubled down on aesthetics with them, so there is still ppl at Geedubs with a minimum of taste. Everything is possible if we mantain the long vigil.
One can only hope that the obsolecence will do the hobby a favour for a change, once the Primaris have come full circle.
That's started already with them pushing some units into the "legends" category and not being able to use them in tournaments...and no I'm not a touney player
Having played 1st edition endlessly as a kid, I'm amazed to watch recent battle reports and discover that the clunkiest core game mechanics of WFB / WH40K are *still* there and have actually gotten worse - namely 'buckets of dice' and the rigid alternating turns. As a teenager it was a revelation when I got into 20mm WW2 and acquired a set of rules in which one side moved *while* the other side shot at them.
The loss of blast templates in 8th edition is truly egregious, giving characters effective immunity from artillery fire and encouraging units to bunch up in the most ludicrous fashion. Allowing the target player to allocate hits to members of units as he sees fit (rather than randomly or based on who falls under the blast template) is also a recipe for absurdity.
If and when I get the Emperor's Children force on my desktop painted up, I hope I can find an opponent who is willing to do what historical wargamers have always done - adapt the ruleset so that it a.) rewards 'realistic' tactics and b.) makes for a fun and reasonably balanced game.
Yeah, it's a massive problem, and they bizarrely modify the rules for the sections that worked best, whilst leaving others a clunky mess.
If you haven't played with them yet, emperors Children are a real treat to play in 8th!
I couldn't figure out what was wrong, clearly something, with the thumbnail until you mentioned it.
This is why I've stopped buying codexes until I have enough of the models I think look cool and are enjoyable to build and paint ready to put together a list with. I work very slowly, so odds are the next rule book/codex will come out before I've got my army together, so I just wasted money.
10:04 Ah Battle for Macragge I still got that one box set,mostly unpainetd got it while i didnt even know what 40k is.
Interested in a video on 8th edition especially after some time for it to settle and your thoughts.
The thoughts are honestly not nice.
@@TheOuterCircle that's fine it's why we love you.
6th ed minus allies is the best ruleset. Also pancake edition is great but I can’t find the PDF anymore.
I wish Heresy stayed in 6th, but it HAD to move to 7th for some very vague reason, even tho the production of a heresy rulebook proves otherwise.
Have to disagree with your point that 3rd ed. was where the fluff "hardened". At the beginning of 3rd ed. you had codices with little to no fluff whatsoever. The universe building was completed during 2nd ed.
And that is why I ran screaming from 40k to AoS. Honestly, there's far less creep in AoS, the community is much more mellow, and it's an environment where going 3-2 at a tournament is a fine goal to aim for.
A fellow refuge :3, also to add i feel the money is less needed, well its hard to state but less units means less things to buy...but i fear units will get cheaper and people will have to spend moar money
Skaven and FEC would like to speak with you.
@@Gilean80 fun fact if you bought the sc box for fec you probably only had to buy one more unit
@@Gilean80 FEC used to be garbo tier, so them being great doesn't bother me. As for Skaven, it's Skaven. Half the time they kill themselves as much as your boys do.
And yes, fewer models. Unless you're me and building Legions of Nagash. 80 Skeletons and 30 Grave Guard plus leaders.
I just avoided both, having fled Warhammer Fantasy to Horus Heresy
2nd edition also had all of the faction rules in the original rule book.
I really loved playing 5th ed and would really love to go back then despite owning a grey knight army but i refused to use the dreaigowing
Aaaaand the pattern of codex creep continues into 9th. We had a handful of balanced codices in the beginning and now they're increasingly OP. If you can beat Tau with Space Marines, it's because your list is tight as a drum.
Stopped playing after two games of 6th. So I think you're spot on
Yeah so listened for fun because I have already given up on Codeices. May consider buying rules when they make them e-subscription. Fed up of paying for books which tear up lore and make playing so little fun. Using 40k armies with modified historical rules for action games - not a tournament player, who I actually feel sorry for.
In 8th edition i once faced a baneblade and a leman russ in a 750 point game. Needless to say i got crushed.
I can’t stand the players in my city. All tournament players.
Daniel Miles obsessed with winning?
476 Anno Domini all of the Armies were from reddit. Just the most absurd OP armies. The worst is everyone doesn’t paint there models. Just there to smash
You didn't HAVE to pick Warlord Traits randomly. I still don't. It's Iron Resolve all the way.
And I think part of the post-fifth downfall is partly due to the disregard for standard "Troops" choices. They don't really have a purpose anymore, but they should be the mainstay of armies! Marines with Tactical Squads, Eldar without Guardians. Other than Orks and Guard, I never see basic troops. It's a shame.
Texting driver steering off a cliff... Classic. LOL
I think the fatal flaw of 5th was how non-5th edition armies suffered compared to 5th ed armies. That said too, there were serious problems with the codexes towards the end with the writers really killing the game.
Primaris did.People don't have the money to rebuy their whole SM army , just cause GeeDubs wants more more money
Not to mention if you like Wolves, Blood Angels, other specialist/melee focused chapters, then you can just go fuck yourself since primaris don't play that way.
What happened to the grim dark? When I was a bright eyed 13 year old. Oh... real life is worse than the grim dark :(
It's also more sad that if you bring up grimdark or if you want to preserve the grimdarkness, some people will scoff and laugh at you for being silly about it.
Maybe the tabletop aspect is in a bad state; I wouldn't know... because having nobody in my general area to play anything cool and slightly intellectually challenging makes actually playing those kinds of games pretty much impossible... LoL.
Sadly, Bum Fucked Egypt, Arkansas isn't exactly a place that's well known for it's hip/smart people ya know... LoL.
So the "gaming" aspect may well be screwed up, it does sound like it is from this video's narrative... BUT, the Black Library 40K novels, & 30K Horus Heresy novels... Man they are mostly all really good. I have been able to enjoy, & truly appreciate, Warhammer 40K "content" and it's constantly expanding lore more than any other current fictional universe setting out there!
I find the "lore" community is fun, people enjoy just having discussion about everything, and there is SO MUCH, in 40K's lore. So I hope that GW get their shit together on the tabletop game, because 40K is a legitimately legendary property that needs to be handled with respect and appreciation by it's creators.
Black Library is pretty much the last bastion of worth a shit in GW.
Having said all this, Age of Sigmar is on the up for popularity but at the outset it was in a bad state.
I don't mind 8th that much to be honest, but I can see where you are coming from.
Tanks die too easily, re rolls are too stronk and Xenos still need work after all these years.
Even though I have not been playing warhammer for that long, I can with a straight face say that 7th was a complete mess.
I started in 5th and I've seen the game do nothing but go downhill. I still play because I love the models and the lore but I still stand by 5th being the best edition, if you could exclude the unkillable vehicles as you pointed out. I lost count the number of games where I did nothing but stun or shake a vehicle for the entire match while mine blew up like fireworks.
Also before it was introduced in 6th ed, it didn't even cross my mind in games to ally forces with each other, you just used that army. 6th ed really opened the can of worms with that one, I admit I do enjoy allying armies on the odd occasions but the amount of cheese from soup lists isn't worth it being an option. Save them for friendly narrative games.
Looks like a prototype bladeguard ancient banner on da left.
RT is the only edition to have an equal points build system! every edition after have had "vague" points that sometimes didnt match up! it also had the freedom to allow you to do what ever you wanted with your coin, not what GW want you to do with your purchase
2nd edition was a great game. I guess anything with more than 2 pages of rules is considered clunky by people suffered through a modern education system.
So the 9th edition should be right around the corner after this iron hand release?
Great video, I agree on tour points, but I do think the game is in its best state now and moving forward into 9th excites me more than when we moved to 6th. 💪👍
Hey Macca, love ur videos. And Agreed but honestly gameplay wise, 7th and 8th are my favorite. 20 years old been playing since I was 11 when I got into late 5th edition early 6th edition. Honestly, I think that they need to bring back psychic powers and yeah primaris marines are cool, but I miss tax marines and the way the old space marines chapter used to work. They should also make daemons a non horde army and incorporate them into the CSM like back in 3.5 edition. Update the Xenos range, redo the entire Ork range, they need to also darken the lore a significant amount again. Have a xenos and chaos mixed apocalypse, a lot of lore changed. This is Literally my favorite game ever, as such I feel like I need to point out some stuff. Also like yourself, I love the Horus heresy and been playing that since 2012. Have a sons of Horus and word bearers army. In 8th, honestly Everything currently is pretty points cost effective, WAYYY more so than any other edition. The high wounds and way the weapons work I’m fine with, especially the high wounds, that should never change. Tanks and walkers/ vehicles should have HP again or just wounds without the damage table. In my opinion, some changed I would have personally made. Also whenever me and my buddies play with our CSM armies, we give all CSM units (marines, bezerkerz, raptors, etc) 2 wound 2 attack models. A lot more fun to play when all *SPACE MARINE, (power armored) units 2 or more wounds. Games last longer and is a lot more balanced and fluffier. Could go on but just gonna leave this here lol
The worst part of 8th edition is just the simplification of options and units. I want to be able to make my daemon prince a more powerful psyker by buying psyker levels. I want to be able to take sorcerers and chaos lords with my death guard - but some fucking idiot decided that it’d be a good idea not to give them toughness 5 or disgustingly resilient. Why would the death guard have just a normal dude lead them?
I know I’m late to the party, but did anyone lose their job over the stuff ups?
Sisters, Inquisition all appeared in RT! and are not a 2nd thing
Second edition sounds great to me. Stuff takes a lot to kill so creates battle of attrition and characters are really good.
*Some stuff takes a lot to kill. That's important to remember, because one moment your guys will be around for an entire game, but then you play against Inquisition/Tyranids/Harlequins and your dudes drop like flies and you're tabled before an hour passes. Tyranids were especially egregious in this regard.
@@paulyg405 Tyranids in 2nd edition were pretty broken, their monsters were absurdly strong and durable, and their special rules, such as "Jones is acting Strangely" could wipe out enemy squads easily. I say they were especially egregious because that rule could kill anything you had to deal with their Carnifex, and then it would solo your army.
@@paulyg405 Yeah, that's exactly what I was getting at in my original comment. Tyranids weren't the only ones who could wipe out the enemy very easily, they just had more ways of doing it.
Playing against my friend's riptides
40k’s biggest problem is the price of its models.
Which he didn't mention in a video about what broke the fans (THE PRICE)!!!
I have commented on price in numerous videos, hence why I didn't want to cover it in this particular one. Further, I feel that price isn't a factor in the editions themselves transitioning, unlike in Warhammer Fantasy Battles where it directly correlates with the 8th to AOS change. If you are interested in price comparisons, there's a whole playlist on this channel labelled "Informative" where I go into the minutia, right down to shipping costs and taxes.
Necrons were the last codex of 5th (I believe 6th was released just a month later). One of the biggest offenders of that codex, Catacomb Command Barge. Here's an A13 vehicle, transporting a warscythe wielding overlord, that your opponent chooses where your hits land (the character or the vehicle), and it has chariot rules (can fight in CC, gets 3 free swings by just flying over you) before the Chariot vehicle type was given to anyone else. Should you bring down the vehicle, you still have to deal with the angry Overlord and his massive can-opener.
Pop it with a melta and even if you don't kill it, the thing goes down to AV 11, making it much easier to handle. The Command Barge was never much of a problem in my book, just remember to hit it with at least on heavy weapon so your autocannons (and similar, assault cannons and missile launchers work too) can finish it off with little issue.
@@lich109 yes, though that really only applied to the 3 weeks the codex played in 5th. With 6th edition (and the release of the chariot type and its rules) the general rule was that heavy arms gets directed at the embarked overlord (since he'd only take 1 wound and has an invul, unless you hit him with S10) while the small arms goes to the barge.
@@Shippo89 Why wouldn't you pop his chariot and leave him walking in 6th?
@@lich109 in 6th they let the target decide where each weapon hit a chariot. This usually meant 7 and lower were usually placed on the ride, 8 and 9 to the overlord, and 10 went to the ride again (no sense losing an overlord to instant death).
Chariots were weird and this interaction was one of the primary complaints. The other being that only 3 armies had access to them. 1 being a named character, 2 being daemons that either weren't played (slanesh) or had better things to spend points on (tzeench).
Sorry if the original post was worded badly. Was taking it from the perspective of you targeting the barge (and the necron player being "your opponent" chooses where the hits go).
@@Shippo89 I'll admit I needed to bring out my book since it's been a while, but whoever you were playing against was a filthy liar, here's the direct quote from the book:
"Shooting at Chariots: Chariots re shot at in exactly the sameway as other vehicles - the rider cannot be targeted separately from his Chariot. *Shooting attacks must always be resolved against the chariot.* "
I've put in bold the important part at the end, the target doesn't have a choice on whether or not it's the chariot or character who gets shot, you always had to shoot and destroy the chariot before you could even try to harm the character.
The reason why each army has a special name for their USR because it means balancing becomes more of a scalpel process where there might be a specific problem with how one faction interacts with a rule and not another. 8th edition has some issues, mainly with a lack of in depth terrain rules, and sometimes there have been really dominant lists, but by far it's the most balanced 40k has ever been.
Most balanced 40k has ever been? Third ed called and it's not happy with you.
Sounds like the game got Ward-rolled
....sadly
I had high hopes for the 8th edition, even got some friends back in the game and some others start collecting miniatures... Then it got more and more like a TCG, where only wombocombos mattered.
So we got back to 6th-ed-Whfb
The game has certainly never been perfect but within a few weeks of 8th edition releasing I said to my friend, someone who I've been playing Warhammer with for the last 15 years: "I can't wait for 9th edition." Before it released a lot of people I know we're saying things like "As long as they don't AOS 40k (i.e. dumb it right down) I'll be happy with 8th" and quite a few of them were happy with it... but the other day I bought Wrath and Rapture, which comes with the AOS rules and the 40k rules... The AOS rulebook has got to be like 4 times *longer* than the 40k rulebook. And somehow those same people won't admit to me that it was AOS'd. And to top it off the things they cite as improvements (e.g. simplification and play-ability)' have been absolutely ruined by the constant releases and updates to the rules. Assuming you even agree that adding die roll modifiers back into the system and abandoning USRs is a simplification in the first place.
Nice video and no there is no mistakes in what you say. You could have push more on the 8th and the stratagem plague. I like the 8th core rules but less is not always the best. Players tend to do a lot of it`s not stated that I can't in the rules. And 2 years after we have so much rules every where it's insane.
If I'm not mistaken on the edition, in the 4th, all Space marines founding chapters had special rules/units like the Iron Hands tactical sergeant could put a terminator armor. It was quite nice at the time especially outside tournament. IMO It's more legion specific than the 8th codex supplement with just one data sheet.
8th core rules are great. But the increasing supplements and codex creep have made it bloated all over again.
3.5/4th is pretty much the golden age.
@Evan Rogers You are right, the 40k Magic the Gathering style is a plague. I'm too old for that.
@Evan Rogers Buffs doesn't bother me so much. Each armies has the same kind of buff. It's really the stratagem that are annoying because there is too much of them nearly 200 for the spaces marines and with 15-20 for each armies for 23 factions it's 400-450 more. With nearly 40 codices or factions supplement in 2 years nobody can keep up with that and it looks like it will be on a 2 years renewal ... it's nearly 3k $ of books.
That is why we are turning to the Horus Heresy, 5 book at 300$ if you don't want the fluff and you are all good.
During 2d edition some character were so over powered it was insane. I don't think I've tasted them all but Ragnar Blackmane was one of them, and I recall one that could fly or teleport himself to whip out an entire army. In the 3rd edition the problem was the Dark Eldar general with the 2+ save and combat drogue that decimated all armies. In the 8th only the Custodes shield captain on jet bike is a plague with all the re-roll ... is nearly unkillable. And there is enough, IMO, weapon that can target characters in the game.
Eeeerm. Have we seen the new Space Marine Codexes yet? The creep hasn't finished yet.
Sorry 4th Edition is so much better than 5th, but in general agree with your comments, just disagree with the breaking point. 5th lacked the terrain rules that made the game a war game. 4th was a still a "company" game, 5th turned every game to Apocalypse. Flyers were stupid additions outside of Apoc, period. True LOS was a joke and helped to ruin what little terrain rules there were. Regardless, 5th was my own personal break with the game.
4th is the best edition hands done. True line of sight was the biggest travesty, there is a reason why most other game systems don't use it and make use of abstract area terrain. Also balance flew out the window with 5th.
I'm a huge fan of 3rd and 4th, but 5th had the greater diversity of factions and such, it's just a shame about Matt Ward and Phil Kelly running a train on it.
Whats with this age of sigmar picture? Am I missing something?
He's implying that Age of Sigmar looks like 40k, and that warhammer "fantasy" has lost its look
And still warhammer 40k never been this popular with SO many players as currently :O
Its not rocket science, lol, more kids with more money, more adult nerds also with more money. ;[]
*SLAANESH* FREE *SLAANESH* MASSAGE *SLAANESH* ... and more pervs with more money.
@Thedwarvenpower welp, your a troll. LoL. Glad i don't "play" with you.
@Thedwarvenpower Yarp, trolling again. Your very angry. Do you need help?
@Thedwarvenpower OH NO!. More direct insults .. is your manhood that small? Why are you so defensive? Big hugs little man.
Because the game is in the best state it's ever been and the support GW are giving to the game with FAQs etc is fantastic.
People just struggle with change I think
Ooooooooh what broke 40k? Now I feel like Aslan telling the Witch about how not to recite the words to me for I was there when it was written hahahahahahahahaha!
Started in 2007, a month after the 4th ed. CSM book was released on the dying months of 4th ed. My main edition was 5th and it wasn't the edition itself that hurt the players but more the external balance that did it. I agree with that point. I disagree with the 'unkillable tank' problem Tanks were harder but there was always a way to get them blown up like MC's* or Meltaguns. They were highly rated back then. The issue was external balance. It was clear with Draigowing and Dark Eldar that the dev's never really spoke to eachother to playtest the game. You also miss out Cruddace with the Leaf blower lists of 9 Vendettas and such that packed all the Lascannons that butchers most games they entered. Ward was most prolific who had hurt the game with the clear favoritism but this was not uncommon with rest of them who showed clear favouritism with certain armies like Cruddace with guard and Kelly with Dark Eldar. If someone were to homebrew and re-balance all these and also made CSM more flavorsome then that would be the edition that people would be satisfied with.
Only thing I majorly disagree in this video was the Necrons, yes they were tough but the only real thing they had for them was the Waithspam list and Mindshackle Scarabs (which I never mention as that was just so thought-provokingly bad I still feel my blood boil over that item of wargear).
6th was as you descried was ok. I personally didn't enjoy the random charge range and Overwatch. Flyers and Invis was also a pain and not worth making specific rules for, but i feel this is where the tone of the game shifted. No longer was a game meant to simulate the heart and climax of a long battle or war where warlords duelled to decide the fate of a world but instead they crammed in every genre of TT Wargame to simulate an entire war in one game, from challenges to Titans.The power spikes still went up and this is when players really became bitter.
7th was a death knell. At least in my area this is when people just stopped playing the game because it just caused too arguments with the power spikes, Half of our player base were Craftworld Eldar and from there the playerbase collapsed in on itself because no one who didn't play them damn elves wanted to fight against Invisible Waithknights and the Eldar players were bored of playing against the same lists over and over again, because their lists would be idetic with a different paintjob. Only satifiaction I got out of that ediution was FW's Lost and teh Damnned book and the Trator Legions Supplement. At last my Night lords could have something to shout about, even if it couldn't still compare to the Craftworlds, I could still feel that flavor return to my army.
I personally enjoy 8th, but I'm worn out and bitter from the competitive side of things. The flavor for my Legion that I had in 7th is lost now, gone to a trait that has about 2% effect in a semi-competitive game. Competitively-wise I feel as though my night Lords are right back at square one with the 4th ed. codex, so I don't bother anymore. I just paint and play the odd game with very like-minded friends who are also not interested in playing the game competitively, but who just wanna play rule of cool and I'm a lot happier for it. I used to be a right miserable bastard in previous editions (and you can tell in my earlier videos too) and used to go on crusades on Dakka Dakka on why my CSM are just shite. The game was horrible to me when I felt I had to compete and 'keep up' with friends when all i really wanted to do was to just play the models I liked.
*Monstrous Creatures (Personally I loved Walkers in that edition. I loved dreadnoughts as they were one of the main things keeping me in 40k. War Coffins are cool!).
I am the one who likes random rolls
How is Age of Sigmar doing by contrast?
Alright? I'm a fan but i don't have enough confidence in my opinion
It started off terrible but became a great game
Age of Sigmar killed the points system in 2015 but eventually brought points back.
Age of Sigmar killed Gotrek Gurnisson along with the Old World in 2015 but eventually they brought Gotrek back.
Age of Sigmar banished Slaanesh in 2015 but eventually brought Slaanesh back.
Age of Sigmar abandonned classic armies like Dwarfs, High Elves and Imperium in 2015 but eventually they brought those armies back with CIties of Sigmar.
The less Age of Sigmar you get in Age of Sigmar, the better the game gets.
@@skywatcheradept never thought aboyr it that way, but maggotkin and CoS are my fave armies
@@jj_see_film Cities of Sigmar also has great artwork on the cover. It shows how much better the AoS artwork is now compared to the old Stormcast Eternals battletome cover: whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Battletome:_Stormcast_Eternals_(2017)
Fantasy always had awesome artwork. In the beginning AoS art was abysmally bad.
I won so many games playing DE in 5th that I stopped playing because it got boring
Ah, the wonderful 1st edition Rulebook, where the God Emperor of Mankind just worked himself to death...Yup, no Horus Heresy, No epic duels on the bridge of the Vengeful Spirit, He just worked until his body gave out on him...
*"We can pick and chose what to play.. and we can create our own armies.. our own worlds.. our own WARS.. or we can live in the past."*
- Diar, aspiring chaos champion.
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I've been around since before *Rogue Trader* , over the decades we ignore whatever GW decides to do thats stupid. :) Nothing new, but 'corporate' GW is a different beast. I wonder what is next. Anyways modern edition 40K rules can't handle my 4 army chaos warband because its NOT children friendly. Ooops. Good thing i don't play with GW... lol
What you talking about the primaris are awesome and the best thing added to the game in years
We needed an army of Primaris Lieutenants last year.
@@MalcadorTheSigilite Still not enough, I won't be happy til they sell Lieutenants in boxes of 10 xD
Gr8 b8 m8
He doesn’t know that 4 Primaris marines managed to kill an Iron Warriors Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour with Knives!
Damn, cannot tell if sarcasm.
Of course I get into 40k just as everything that made it cool dies.
It seems I’m cursed to always be late to the party, or maybe my curse is to always find things I enjoy, only to have them go to shit shortly after.
At least there’s 30k ( for now)
Massive disappointment. The more I find out about how the game used to be I wonder if there is even any point in following it. If the aesthetics were still the same I probably would have stayed interested and ignored the new fluff.
Found out about 30k a good while ago. Had me super excited. The stuff looked insanely good to be. This was right before the currency change/price hike and the last chance to buy. I kept on going back to look but so much was gone and I couldn’t justify the price.
Fuck Warhammer, but hey at least their models look nice...$$$
I'm wondering if its really the fanboys fault that the game is such crappy now because they insist on buying GWs stuff, even when its crap?
Nothing broke the fans. It’s never been so successful. Can’t please everyone I suppose
It's not about breaking the fans, I literally say that in the video opening?
Broke the fans? Lulz
I disagree about 8th being a poor version of the game. It's the most balanced system they've made so far and that's not my opinion. It's based on stats from the competitive meta. I enjoy the stratagem system as well. I can understand the USR gripe and theres no need to do it, and many of the abilities have been standardised but if you want a more balanced system then you need more standard abilities and stats. The factions have still kept some individuality without one faction being majorly OP. Having said that It'll be interesting to see how all the psychic awakening plays, which I think is basically edition 8.2
I will talk about my reasoning behind why I think 8th is highly flawed at a later date, and do remember, I still think 3rd ed was the best for balance, so I'm biased in that leaning.
@@TheOuterCircle I'm looking forward to it 😊
"[8th Ed. is the most balanced.] That's not my opinion. It's based on stats from the competitive meta."
I'm sorry but that's bullshit. The competitive meta has included lists like the unbeatable Forgeworld lists, that only became beatable when new unbeatable lists came out, and any armies not attached to these lists just get shafted.
@@lich109 the key point you have made is 'has included'. many ITC or GT events don't include forge world units. Forge world is also only really used if your opponent agrees to it (GW events will normally allow forge world). I'm just talking bog standard 40k. The stuff that gets assessed and points adjusted. You should watch some of the almost pro gaming stuff he has video of statistics that shows how balanced the game was (I say was because of the new marine meta).
@@jamesclarke5331 If we're looking at the meta while ignoring part of the game then we're not given an accurate picture of the meta as a whole. Anything can look balanced and fair if you just ignore the parts you don't like, even though those parts are entirely legal to use and play according to GW.
You would think warhammer was never good or worth playing the way this guy talks
Nothing! More popular than ever, 8th edition is one of the best because GW have been tweaking the rules to suit evryone. There will always be people who could find a problem but overall players say they are happy with the lore/ the rules/ the models! If there is anything that broke the fans its the price of hobby!!!
Popularity of the hobby is a hard thing to quantify. It probably has more players than ever, true. However, it's also not a niche hobby anymore, in fact all tabletop has undergone massive growth, so it's hard to attribute it solely to 8th edition. On top of that, the population in general has gone up how much over the 32 years 40k has existed? Just by that sheer percentage alone it will be higher. Lastly, the passion the consumer has for the product may or may not be higher than in the past.
I find with more people involved it makes for more active and more intresting community! I speak frequently to all sorts of people new and old members of the 40k community and find most people (fans) enjoy all aspects of the hobby, modelling/painting, the lore, playing the game itself both narrative or competitive. I guess my point is even though a small % of people call it broken and bitch about rule changes or how each edition played overall 40k is on the up and up!!!
@@Duppyman695 In media, you're not just competing with other model companies. You're competing with everything else: movies, video games, action figures, comic books-in essence, GW has to engage the customer more than any of these other things if they want 40K or AoS to succeed. They don't even try. Their models are too expensive for kids today, most of whom would rather buy toys or video games. They barely have a toe-hold on action video games, they have some good RTS games, and they have a grand total of..........one movie. Sure, there's an entire library of novels, but most sci-fi series have that too. That, and they have more games, comics, and even films. Even Halo has movies now. Movies-as in plural. Oh, and the comic company they've contracted to make 40K comic books? SJW-led Marvel, the bane of comic readers everywhere.
Totally agree on price, way to expensive! Dont agree with anything else GW is naw one of the U.K biggest exports, making ridiculous amounts of money in models and books alone! They have been offered to do live action movies/series but if its bad it could effect sales of the models, only naw 10 years on is there going to be a live action TV series.
Time to let 40k and AoS die, there are loads of better games out there.
You read my mind. Heck, SW tabletop games are far cheaper and easier to play.
Another video where an Australian/Kiwi (can't tell the difference by sound) complains about gw. Add it to the other ten thousand.
I assume you didn't watch the video or watch the series.
I did, yes. However, this was on my recommended queue, so I would not have watched the entire series.
Ah, so is THIS is where are the haters go to talk about how much they hate a game that they "stopped playing years ago" but still actively seek out content?
The comments on your channel are HILARIOUS. I could season my steaks for life with all the salt. Boiling rose coloured fanboy tears are wonderful for making pasta, as well!
Having just gone through these comments, I don't have a clue what you're talking about. You seem to be imagining something that isn't there.