Primaris Marines: A Good Idea Executed Poorly (In The Lore)
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- Опубліковано 11 вер 2024
- Let's give it one more crack. Primaris Marines, why their fluff doesn't work.
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I don't understand why they didn't just say "this is a new set of armour. We rediscovered an STC. It's bigger and it makes them stronger."
TheRhamiel I can buy that. Welcome aboard GW as chief of lore lol.
that is quite a good idea you have there
Miguel Álvarez hahaha
Yep and then you can slowly expand the range like with the smaller marines and add older armour marks at a bigger scale and voila you have a fully realised range of awesomely proportioned Space Marines.
A trick: you can watch series on flixzone. Been using it for watching all kinds of movies lately.
I don't like the idea of a bunch of fresh new marines turning up and being much better than the old guard.
Maybe Primaris could be veterans who receive new mutations that only older marines are viable for, they then get the new gear.
Naturally these new developments were developed by big E , but they were never implemented and have been forgotten for millennia.
Just spitballin.
good idea
I heard a good handful of the primaris are veterans from the Horus heresy
Nothing could have ruined 40k more than adding "new"marines. It is lore breaking, and more importantly, it is Atmosphere breaking. There aren't supposed to be improvements. I always loved how technologies were lost and the whole Imperium of Ignorance as a choice was such a cool, unique feel. Now its just more starship troopers vs bugs. Find that anywhere.
One big problem is Cawl isn't that he just made the Marines, its that he solved everything. As you pointed out. it breaks immersion. Its not like a secret cabal, or a group, just one guy, does everything that is needed.
The ideas are good, but the issue is they address how it "should" have been and not how to fix the lore that's already rolled out.
Given how bad Gw is at remembering their own lore, it wouldnt surprise me if they just forgot about bile.
One way they could of introduced the Primaris Marines better would of been if Corax was the first primach returned and he made the Primaris Marines in small numbers, perfecting what he tried the first time without the Alpha Legion screwing it up.
Another would of been to have Omegon return with half the Alpha Legion to help the Imperium and with them could of been the Primaris Marines having spent 10,000 years perfecting what they stole from the Raven Guard.
(Personally I hate the Primaris Marines would never have introduced them period)
Funny you say that, just finished painting my first squad of Primaris in Alpha Legion colours. planning on doing a compaign around them with a couple of friends.
I think a great option would be to have a major down side. i.e. Chaos can use them to make more Chaos Marines (which they struggle with regular SMs)
Then it could be said, sure the Emperor COULD HAVE made them but he DIDN'T for that (or w/e) reason.
I agree, something along these lines would have been better. As you say, either Corax being the returning Primarch and renewing his work, or perhaps Guilleman coming back still and deciding to imitate what Corax did with his own geneseed with Cawl's assistance. Also, I would prefer it if there was greater emphasis on the Primaris being made by enhancing and upgrading existing marines first rather than making entirely new Primaris from scratch. Not only would this make more sense from a lore perspective, but would also provide a lore reason, as well as a nudge-nudge-wink-wink warning, for eventually Primaris marines superseding regular marines so that we don't have this side-by-side Big 'N Little marines nonsense permanently. I like the new models as true-scale marines, I think a lot of people do too. I get why GW didn't want to make people's existing collections redundant overnight, but damn, if they could have set us up for an obvious long game to allow people to start switching to Primaris NOW and phase their old marines out slowly over a period of years, that would have been great.
My main issue woth primaris marines are their bland boring appearance, compare death company primaris (basically just primaris painted black) to the gorgeous ornate forstborn death company
Just bite the bullet and make true scale space marines... you could upgrade the whole range and still have some contingency in place with Guilliman returning. Maybe a few upgrades and improvements to the Astartes and a new founding. Break through the 1000 chapters of 1000 marines nonsense. But instead we get a weird marvel-esque upgrade of Astartes to be more generic than ever.
They should have just released them as new marines in mark 10 armor. No fluff. No story. Just new models. I would have been fine with that.
Or just a new tactical marine kit with true scale. Then update the entire line of Space Marine to fit the new scale. Terminators, all the Veteran kits and then you could add new units and new armour.
this is all leading up to another ''thunderwarriors style heresy thing'' in this case primaris against marines.
girlyman wants a new path, dorn wakes up dorn is oldschool and not the best of brothers with girlyman dating back to after heresy codex astartes debacle.
dorn defends terra as this is where his father is, and wants his marines the way they are.
girlyman has his own throneworld ultramar and left his father starting a new path, using up his marines and replacing them with primaris.
primaris are already infiltrated in the ranks of the chapters, ''being everything twice a marine is'' they are suited to overtake the chapter in sufficient numbers when the call comes.
etc etc etc. i can go on for hours on how brutal it can be.
and how much money it will make geedubs.'
if some other chaptermaster wonders why my chaptermaster carries a ''nuclear football button'' on his belt well thats the failsafe button to liquify my primaris if needed.(if and when i get send some)
girlyman is a traitor with a god complex.
corrupted by a eldar god.(anathema all over again).
there will be ONLY WAR.
just my thoughts ;-)
We do have the 21st (cursed) founding that has kind of been alluded to being a precursor run of primaris. So its not like someone wasn't already dabbling with the geneseeds of Astartes. And the high lords of terra were certainly doing SOMETHING with the geneseed tithes that chapters would send to them. Though I will agree that plopping Cawl into the lore and unloading the primaris wholesale onto us without giving us much supporting evidence to warrant its sudden appearance. But giving Chaos Primaris first (when they already have EVERYTHING marines have, plus spikey bits and daemon princes and such) and also destroying Cadia and causing the Cicatrix Maledictum, assaulting Terra, assaulting Ultramar and we already have multiple Daemon Primarchs wrecking everyone's shit, then suddenly giving Astartes the Primaris upgrade out of the blue would have been JUST AS BAD, IF NOT WORSE than what they did to launch Primaris in the first place.
And the Emperor ALREADY improved upon the space marines when he created the Grey Knights AND the Custodes. Which both are superior to space marines in every way. So while Cawl may not have had access to all the resources the Emperor had, what Cawl did have was time. Having ten thousand years to work on a problem that the Emperor only had a few centuries to figure out. And dont forget SOMEONE had to help rebuild the Custodes after they all got wiped out during the siege of terra. So possibly Cawl took some idea's and plans from the Custodes rebuilding project when he started on his upgrade project to make Primaris. Primaris having access to anti-grav tech that has pretty much been limited to only custodes and Dark Angels is certainly something to consider. The Imperium can barely make Land Speeders, and suddenly Primaris have anti-grav land raiders and super-heavy tanks.
We do know that Primaris Redemptor Dreadnoughts 'burn out' the pilots after a short period of time. While Astartes Dreads can last for millennia (by putting the pilot into a stasis shut down until they are needed). The Redemptors seem to burn out the pilot in less the a century (if the pilot even lasts that long). As for how long Primaris can live, we dont know yet as they have only been fighting for a little over a century. Considering some space marines can live a few centuries (or millennia depending on circumstance) its not unreasonable to think that Primaris could live either longer or shorter. They can survive deadlier wounds, but how long does their body last working at a higher rate than space marine bodies? That will remain to be seen.
I will agree with you that the way the Primaris were just thrown at us left much to be desired. And that they could have done a better job leading up to the launch of the Primaris. But I do not agree with the idea of giving chaos Primaris equivalent chaos first and then the imperium reacting to that. We have already seen that the Imperium is technologically stagnant, with the loss of so much technology, more alien and chaos threats to deal with and too many planets under siege or destroyed, how in the hell would the imperium just out of the blue 'develop' stronger marines when not even Guillimen himself didn't have the scematics/plans/details on the creation of marines. Even with Guillimen being a latent psyker, there is no way he could have pioneered the creation of new organs and such to create the primaris. He didnt make them after the heresy, and didnt make the war machines that have been lost for over 8k years standard STC. Dammit Jim, Guillimen is a statesman, not a doctor! (or a scientist).
I did a pair of videos a little while back pointing out how both chaos is not a threat, and neither is the Cicatrix Maledictum. I know it sounds crazy, but honestly, chaos having spikes and the odd daemon prince isn't enough simply because they aren't effective. Cadia is literally the only world "lost" to chaos that people give a crap about in the entire history of the game. That's not a threat, it's one planet and they barely achieved even that lowly task. As for the Grey Knights and Custodes, the Custodes came before the Legions, and the Grey Knights were made with the Emperors assistance. Cawl may have time, but time isn't enough, it's been shown that the Emperor had tens of thousands of years to learn he had the greatest minds of hundreds of generations to draw from, including his own vast intellect, and it took even him many attempts to create the Thunder Warriors, Legions and Custodes.
As for the Primaris Vehicles, that's another topic altogether and hence I stayed away from it this video.
When Terra heard about Cadia, their frontier stronghold being lost, they lost their shit. Humanity as a whole is in jeopardy when every force in the galaxy is bearing down on their systems. Don't forget that most daemon forces are only a myth to those in the Imperium. The Primaris was a response to all Xeno threats in the 42 millennium(and to introduce new models to sell by a company).
It's such a broad topic to approach if I start talking about the warp, the overall campaign, the indomitus crusade etc.
I think the trick is to break it down into smaller videos. I tried to cover too much in one video in the past, and it just muddles my point. All people take out of the videos is my swearing, and it's a shame.
The Cicatrix is scary not because more of the warp is now in real space, the Cicatrix is scary because that means that chaos daemons and chaos marines can freely attack nearly the entire galaxy and can have nearly unlimited support, and the fact that so much of the imperium is cut off and chaos is in control of the choke points where people can safely cross.
Before cadia fell, the forces of chaos were contained or at least limited in their scope of attack and their supply chains were limited. With the Cicatrix open chaos can resupply, conduct raids, and attack nearly any and all planets along the imperium and the imperium cant chase them back without getting lost or destroyed in the warp. To us, looking at this from a scifi tabletop game its not all that scary, but in the universe, where the 'dangerous' parts of space was limited to dangerous pockets has now been expanded to the entire known galaxy and even blot out the psychic beacon of the god emperor and render warp travel nearly impossible for months where whole worlds starved to death because agri worlds were cut off, yeah thats pretty damn dangerous. With the resurgence of chaos (getting all kinds of new models and rules too xp), more deamons springing across the universe to fight against when the imperium is already stretched thin fighting awakening necron armies, more tyranid tendril fleets coming in, ork warbands not kept in check, pirates (eldar, ork and human) attacking everywhere, and even genestealer and chaos cults attacking from within, its a dangerous time to be alive.
And also, the Emperor of Mankind has been known to fail, A LOT. Look at how terrible the Thunder Warriors turned out, he couldnt even get them all killed. Look at the Primarchs, he had to exterminate 2 legions, and the other half turned to chaos. Take a look at his space marine legions, they certainly werent perfect and were a crude and blunt tool at best to conquer the galaxy. Nearly every single thing the Emperor tried to do turned out to be a failure (oh hey, remember that webway project, everything will turn out fine). The Emperor was powerful and smart, but he was not perfect. And one thing the Emperor did not have a lot of was time. If he had all the time in the world and the resources, he never would have needed to wipe out the thunder warriors, only 'fix' them. But either it would take too much time or it would be easier/better to start fresh with the Astartes project.
The Grey Knights are already superior to Space Marines (being incorruptible and all psykers), and the Custodes were nearly on par with Primarchs, and were already vastly superior to Astartes (and so far of what little lore we have on them, havent been corrupted either). And someone has to know how too keep making them, replacing their lost equipment, and all that jazz. While the GK's are on Titan, partially phased out of the universe and manufacturing most of their specialized equipment there. The Custodes was wiped out to the man in the siege of Terra and had to be rebuilt completely from the ground up. Someone had to know how to make new Custodes, and someone had to know how to build all their superior equipment and maintain it. Cawl could have been one of those guys responsible for it. And possibly assigned to rework the space marines by order of Guillimen as the galaxy still burned.
I am not saying they did a good job of ret-conning the Primaris into existence as a massive Dues Ex Machina to save the galaxy by Cawl. But that is the lore we are given and thats the lore we have to work around to do this.
Now if have a raging hard on for giving Chaos Primaris equivalents, I would go the route of having Fabius Bile learn flesh shaping magic from Fulgrim (the Daemon Primarch that is a master of flesh magic and turned himself into a scalie, because russ being a furry wasnt bad enough), and have Fabius Bile use flesh magic to merge deamons with marines (and not just posses them or have the marine ascend to daemon prince) so that you could have the toughness (and 5+ save) of a daemon, but the 2 attacks, 2 wounds and intelligence that Primaris have. Give them a silly name like "FLESHBORNE". Thats how I would go about it. But I really, REALLY dont want chaos to get Primaris. Chaos Literally have everything the imperium has, but with spikes and cool rules. The imperium doesnt have an equivalent to Daemon Princes, Chaos already has more Daemon Primarchs out right now. Chaos not only have dreads/hellbrutes and the like, but they also have other vehicles marines dont have. Other than Primaris, Chaos already has everything else the imperium has, and for a faction WHO LITERALLY WANTS TO DESTROY THE IMPERIUM, THEY SURE LIKE USING ALL OF THEIR TOYS. Because chaos is only parasitic in nature, its not symbiotic, you only exist to feed the chaos gods and as soon as you fall out of favor you will get destroyed.
Well, so I don't have to cover off on the same things again, here are the problems with the Cicatrix Maledictum.
ua-cam.com/video/sHJ28gZRN-E/v-deo.html
As for the Grey Knights, the story behind them is more complex than you think, if you haven't read Last Son of Prospero you may want to read that before citing them as an example, I won't spoil it here for you. It's only a short story, so I'm fully confident you will read it.
The Thunder Warrriors were deliberately flawed, they were not what he needed to conquer the galaxy, they were quick and nasty, designed to steamroll the nastiest things his enemies on Old Terra could muster. I do agree tho, that the Emperor is highly flawed, but his flaws are based on a lack of understanding emotion, need and desire, aka psychological traits. When he designed tech or crafted flesh, he knew his stuff, and even then, took a long time to succeed.
On point, Macca, on point.
How about these are true scale marines and we’ve going to phase out the old models just like we did with the second ed. sculpts and so on. They are the same dudes but with more modern look. Oh wait a person having 40 -70 regular marines won’t buy 5 - 10 boxes of the new dudes just to get their forces look up to date, unless they are a brand new thing. Tim - you’re having your smoke break. Be a good slave and write some fluff for the new marines; you have 15 minutes. Chop-chop.
I wish they'd done this, but they could have planned it long term to make it bearable for people. If they'd written in the lore that the main plan with Primaris was to upgrade existing marines with say Guilleman's geneseed it would give a good reason to have chapters having some regular marines and some Primaris for a few years while people upgrade their armies at a comfortable pace. Then when it's fairly normal to see mostly Primaris armies, the old marine model line gets the chop. If they'd done this it would have been good to keep the Primaris running Tac, Assault, Termie, Scout squads rather than all this Intercessor/Aggressor nonsense with brand new bespoke unit types.
Fabius Bile would absolutely fit and make sense for the introduction of new marines. Something to keep in mind however is that he hates Abaddon and would never work alongside him. That wouldn't fit with the Abaddon succeeding in his 13th black crusade narrative if he wouldn't have access to these soldiers.
"I'll give you these marines Abaddon, but I want X in return" is how it goes. Just like how the Daemon Primarchs assist him. They don't even need to be Primaris, just "enhanced" marines.
My biggest problem is, they came close in time with the custodes, and that make the primaris in my opinion slightly obsolete
Dude, at least as far as Primogenitor was concerned he is interested in creating a new humanity, not a new super soldier.
One small problem with this; Super _Super_ *Super* Soldiers..
Proceeds to laugh uncontrollably*
Well that is part of the problem. It's a moving goal post, but how can you have a 'peak soldier' and then keep pushing beyond that?
Well if Custodes is your goal why not. Push SM until they are as close as possible to the golden boyz while keeping Primarch characteristics/flaw. My problems are mainly: 1) why by the Adeptus Mechanicus, apothecary doesn't have contact with them so I presume their is a Biologist branch of scientist somewhere in Terra or away; 2) you size increase SM then you try to find a lore to match this, they should have just say they are improved an we move partially the miniature size to reflect more the 2.5m guy.
We already have soldiers who are more elite than Custodes. They are called Myrmidons. :)
Ya but it devalues the SPACE MARINE. They are the Emperors finest. The Emperor made them, with herculean effort & even likely collusion with the Chaos Gods. They are the peak of what humanity is capable of mustering. I have no problem with Super Space Marines BECAUSE of training & veterancy.. but not.. this.. with every new Super soldier variant it just kind of gets bland & almost devalues them..
There is a big difference. The Emperor innovated. Cawl simply iterated. He made what was there better by strapping bits in that were also already there. He made nothing new. The Emperor made life from nothing, and made human into transhuman. Cawl just iterated upon that concept. As for the technology; that's always been there, the Mechanicum simply forbids itself from using it.
Cawl is the avatar of malal. Pass it on
Better ideas for the Primaris:
1) Perfected Thunder Warriors
2) Larger armor suits
3) Upgraded veteran marines with experimental organs and weapons
I actually like the "perfected thunder warriors" idea, as it was already my headcanon lol
If GW haven't got some sort of dirty little secret for the primaris and Cawl then they are truly stupid.
Has Cawl found a stash of stuff that he claims to have created (but he doesn't understand it fully)
Is he acting on behalf of some other power?
I think that when we try to analyze the problems with the Primaris Marines we forget the one key factor that led to their creation: Selling miniatures. GW wanted to increase sells, so they made new "improved" versions of their best selling miniatures. From a technical point of view the Primaris are fantastic. The one good thing I can find about them is that looking at the models and the official art you can tell that these guys are super soldiers. To give some examples, their legs are like tree trunks, their chest and shoulder area gives the impression of power and their miniatures are significantly larger that the normal human miniatures. On the other hand they are too clean and not "40k enough".
Aesthetics aside, the introduction of the Primaris was rushed, had no established lore behind it and caued a chain reaction that damaged the whole story significantly. 40K, a setting notorious for it's complexity and attention to detail threw a new, undecooked element front and center in the story. Then there is the super space marine problem. The Space Marines are a force that spearheaded the conquest of the galaxy in armies that averaged 100K marines at the peak of their strenght. On a galactic scale these numbers are insignificant. People forget how powerful the Space Marines are because it doesn't show on the tabletop. And now, GW throws some even stronger guys en masse. Every SM from the Great Crusade to the 42nd Millennium is weaker than these special snowflakes. A Primaris is physically better than Dante, Azrael, Sicarius, Kharn, Abaddon! Not to mention that your average Primaris looks down on every pre-existing SM. The very existence of the Primaris is a giant middle finger to the Space Marines. And there is no catch. They don't have any flaws. The Blood Angels primaris have no Red Thirst, nor Black Rage. the Space Wolves ones do not mutate into the Wulfen. The Dark Angels don't bear the shame for the Fallen etc. They are Noble Bright in a Grim Dark setting and they feel so out of place.
And they were unecessary. The fluff could simply say that Guilliman kept emergency reserves from every legion in the case of the next catastrophic Chaos invasion. These guys would be kept in stasis while their numbers increased for as long as Guilliman was still kicking. With his "death" the project stopped and with the passing of the next 9-10 millennia it was forgotten to imperial incompedence. Cawl, a radical archmagos of the Mechanicum is watching over these reserves until Guilliman returns. At that time he creates multiple new weapons, armors and vehicles for these guys in secret as to not be condemmed for techno heresy. With Guilliman's return he has the protection, backing and resources to mass produce his inventions and arm the reserves with them.
Here you go. New models that don't rape the fluff, Space Marines that are "true scale" and new weapons and vehicles that can be used by all Marines.
GW is screwing the lore, plain and simple. All that explaning of the Horus Heresy and the new fluff just kill the mystery that made 40k great.
The Emperor made a deal with Chaos for the PRIMARCHS, not the marines themselves. Also, the vault for the data was unlocked and Guiliman gave Cawl access. Corvus’s guys were also bigger, stronger and tougher. Durring the Heresy marines were bigger and stronger as said in one of the tories. I forget which one, where two marines were talking and one says “We were stronger once, but we have degraded,” and it was nearly to the Heresy. So even during 30th millennium, you see that everything is different. Primaris marines are an extention of existing lore .
They went from having a distinct visual culture to looking like a generic moma character that "leveled up" too many times.
In all due honesty, I not only dislike the primaris marines, but also their aesthetics, They're cool, but they lack that superstitious stuff like togas, robes, crests and so on, I can't look at them and imagine them roaring "For the emperor," though that's partially because of their helmets, the MK IV-esque helmet lacks that 'angry maw,' of the older mark (V? VI? I forgot which) that's a nit-pick though.
My final verdict would be: They're too good, despite the *real* emperors angels' abilities, they weren't flawless, things like the wulfen and black rage/red thirst comes to mind, I don't like how the black rage is cured, neither how the red ultrasmurfs- sorry, primaris blood angels, restrain the red thirst better.
Normal tactical squad doesn't either. Thats why these exist www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Black-Templars-Chapter-Upgrade. Other thing is that fluff wise this would be like the only thing that made sense considering they were designed 10,000 years ago around when the empire wasn't a mental theocracy.
Chewie260 Yes, I'm aware that normal tactical squads doesn't, but seargents and lieutenants should, but in my opinion, if the primaris have to exist, then do it Macca's way, that one I could actually see happen.
Karl Gustav XII Adolf www.games-workshop.com/en-WW/Space-Marine-Tactical-Squad-2017 wow much emperor very ornamentation. 2010 memes aside only ornamentation on him that intercessor sergant dosn't have is the cloth and the banner which is instead much bigger and fancier carried by the ancient.
Chewie260 Well there still is the regular chapter ancient with a -Granted less fancy- banner, I would have preferred that the sergeant have the cloth and banner, but hey, kitbashing is still an option.
Chewie260 There are actually, but hey, I can kit-bash those too www.google.se/search?q=warhammer+40k+primaris+lieutenant&client=ms-android-samsung&prmd=inv&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiWnP690pLZAhUI2SwKHXu3D_EQ_AUIESgB&biw=360&bih=560#imgrc=CxfJ-z613XQgLM:
I feel like making it so most Space Marines initially didn’t accept Primaris Marines (as in disliked them despite still working with them) would also help. Since people tend to better relate to the underdog most of the time. Seeing the Primaris Marines were greatly disliked to the point of being seen as nearly heresy while they’re just trying to help their brothers and the imperium would give a certain coolness to them.
Fabulous Bob would have been a much better choice, but like you said, he is a Chaos character. Can't give Chaos anything good now, can we? This is like when Grav weapons returned and Chaos players were asking when we'd get OUR crazy guns and we didn't. They could have at least given us Volkite weapons in 40k.
While i do still have my doubts for alot of it, i can see how Cawl could have done this over ten thousand years. You mentioned that Cawl cloned his mind, he could have created proxies to go throughout the galaxy in order to gather information and technology in order to create the Primaris. Maybe the Cawl we see in 40k is not the original Cawl Papa Smurf asked to make the Snowflake Marines. Just his mind in a new body.
Corax managed to create his upgraded geneseed in a matter of weeks/months, in secret, with only 1 Magos and an inexperienced Apocothary. Yes he had original Primarch Soup, who is to say Cawl couldnt use some of this, even the corrupted version.
The thing is we haven't been given alot of fluff to go on. One novel and a few articles. But my main thing pissing me off is that there was no build up. Nothing scattered through the lore or hints dropped. Essentially, Cawl wakes up Pappa Smurf Girly-man and he say 'Right where are those Super Duper Flooper Soldier you promised' Dude seriously? WTF did that come from?
Corax was granted the entirety of the Emperors knowledge directly by the Emperor beamed into his brain, he simply had to allocate the resources. Cawl doesn't have said knowledge, nor does he have the same genetic goop that was given to Corax.
The Outer Circle true. I forgot about that. Thank you.
Well actually Fabius had already created better marines during the Horus Heresy. They were called the 'New Men' or something like that. 3 of these new men were nearly able to kill Corvus Corax.
Yes, and he found Imperial Fists geneseed didn't go crazy when he mutated it like the other legions, they kept their sanity.
The Outer Circle Yup that too, if anyone was ever going to make a better super soldier it would have been him. Great vid mate keep up the good work!
It doesn't, the point is that Fabius works really well and takes almost no effort to make this story work.
Anzu Wyliei It doesn't JUST have to be Fabius but it would be more plausible if he were involved in some shape or form during their creation because of his vast knowledge of the Primarchs and Astartes.
I agree with everything said, with one exception. Those things are fucking hideous! Marine left is angry, his scowling snarling vox grill is screaming righteous fury across the battlefield. Primaris right looks like a sad cat MegaMan or something.
Really enjoyed this video and i think you make some very good points, keep them coming, all the best Garry
Thing is, they didn't even have to make up the lore for the models. They could have just said "We will be slowly replacing the marine range with models that are taller (closer to the lore) and give them better rules (again closer to the lore)". That's it! The whole Primaris bullshit was not needed to sell the new models!
2:10 this particular point of criticism of Cawl makes the least sense though. Any scientist can tell you that itterative work based on an initial breakthrough is always easier than the initial breakthrough itself. Discovering fire took our species several thousands of years, the development of nuclear Power happened over a timeframe of less than 70 years.
Short answer, He's a friggin' nerd! heeheheheheee.
I was basing up my first Primaris squad while I listened to this.... very topical.
Oh, Autek Mor is a Thunder Warrior 😁
1 point I disagree with you on, is the the regular Marines aren’t going to get squated. I’m gonna call it. GW will never make a new regular Marine for the base game. Primaris has already replaced the older one. Just look at the side by side. The mini marines look laughable next to the new models
I've said all along that I believe that they're thunder warriors.
Let's be honest here. Fabulous Bill could probably cook up some Chaos Primaris if he really wanted to. He did after all clone Ferrus Manus, a bunch, and Horus Lupercal. He obviously knows how to create Primarch quality clones. Maybe with less warp shenanigans than Emps could have. But Cawl just rolls up and is like, "Hey guys, got some new toys, and like, a gajillion super Space Marines, cuz, f*** regular ones, right?" I agree, Chaos could have gotten some super scary badasses ripping Guardsmen and Space Marines up, and then the Imperium is like oh no.
I am an Alpha Legion fan however, and knowing that the Alpha Legion are the only ones with 100% pure data and samples of Primarch project stuff, why not have them do a very Alpha Legion thing and just plot twist the whole damn thing. So, I am Alpharius? And maybe the guy in the back, yes we're looking at you. No, hiding behind your taller friend isn't working. You too, over there in the corner, yes you. Probably whoever is reading this too, you crafty bugger, trying to hide where you think we won't see you.
Hydra Dominatus
tbf, the primarch project took centuries, the astartes project would have taken a fraction of that time, because he was just working backwards. Cawl may have had access to the unadulterated primarch data
They should have held off on the Primaris idea with Cawl and worked him into the HH Black Books and novels and then they could have introduced the primaris project and it would have made a whole lot more sense with fewer plot holes. But it all comes down too GW needing something big for 30 years of the hobby and new marines are the obvious choice.
This is how I justify Primaris Marines: In my headcannon they're essentially Thunder Warriors who have being refined to be far more physically and mentally stable, and actually useful on a galactic scale.
Loved the video but disagree on a few things. You had many compelling arguments and if like me you have been playing for 30 years you have a great deal of information. I do know lore changes so keep in mind that I was a rogue trader player to start from and alot of the information may have been retconned. I really hope you are able to reply to this I am interested to see what you think.
Ok so Caul was tasked 10,000 years ago with improving on spacemarines. Roboute Guilliman could have easily given him several different marine geneseeds, since he was very favored by most other primarchs. He was tasked with reordering the chapters and setting them up, thus the ultramarine way of doing things. Caul could have easily have had a cryo freezed thunder warrior that he took samples from to add to the spacemarine geneseed. Caul is at least ten thousand years old and leader of a large portion of the adeptus mechanicus. He had access to a good deal of "lost" technology. I think ten thousand years would allow him to make the Primaris and their technology.
It is known that Caul cloned himself and used cybernetics to enhancement himself, sound familiar? Also there are spacemarines that are 10,000 years old, at least one was put into a dreadnought. The reason Caul had not shared this technology is easy. He was likely told to keep the project top secret for Roboute Guilliman's eyes only. Also there is a ton of red tape he could not just cut trough himself. Roboute Guilliman on the other hand would not have this problem (we hope)....
I hate the primaris.
I know it doesn't really matter; but I've never been the biggest fan of Space Marines in the first place and despite that, I like Primaris Marines on the tabletop because they're basically a tabletop representation of the traditional marines in the fluff, and are even scaled properly with the regular humans of the guard I play. I more or less ignore Primaris fluff altogether the same way any regular guardsman or citizen of the imperium would ignore any specifics of the Astartes (often down to the chapters names and composition if fluff is to be believed). When I fight against Primaris I'm playing against truscale marines and I'm more than happy with that!
good suggestions to work within the current story but all of it is still just a fluff excuse for a crunch upgrade. no need to explain the difference between rtb1 and the current marines = no reason needed to explain the dif between current marines and primaris.
I do see one VERY interesting posibility of the Primaris marines, a catalyst to a new Heracy. Correct me if Im wrong, but I belive Primaries Marines are free of mutation flaws right? I can see this creating quite a lot of fear, paranoia and recentment in chapters with rather obvious mutarions or deviations, like the Iron hands, Blood angles and Space wolves. Keep in mind, Space marine chapters are basicly warior cults, and exreamly paranoid about outsiders, so I can see the Primaris being a bomb waiting to go off.
with the repulsor it had a precedent in the lore in the form of grav land raiders and likely is a lost stc. as for the other primaris stuff it seems to lack a lore precedent
Primarchs required chaos. Astartes didn't. Astartes are inferior to Custodes and Primaris are also inferior to Custodes. The Astartes weren't the peak of the Emperor's abilities, not even close.
The thunder warriors that survived, should have become Fabius Bile’s new “Primaris” Chaos Marines... feeling betrayed and obsolete by the creation of the astartes, they have turned to a new cause and a reason to exist, and to destroy those who replaced them
Fabius Bile would be really easy to integrate into the story as it is while moving it forward. For example: maybe it turns out that Primaris Marines were originally Bile's idea and design but Belisarius somehow stole this knowledge from them and was able to add the final pieces to the puzzle (without having the core knowledge of how it actually works, potentially leading to other cool plot elements like new genetic flaws or stuff Bile put into the genetic code that nobody else would know about) to make their own version of primaris marines before Bile manages to within the warp.
I think that'd be a cool way to integrate this kind of story arc into the shit that's already there, (key word being shit) and there's lots of directions they could take that; maybe Bile finishes his marines and pitches an assault on Mars to stop the Imperiums Primaris production, or maybe some ultra-badass Alpha Legion bros (Hail Hydra) could infiltrate and fuck with their Primaris geneseed like they did to the Raven Guard, except because they were designed by Fabius Bile maybe they have sleeper cell switches built into their genetic code; something Belisarius couldn't have known about/recognized if he stole the core work from Fabius. I'd love to hear your opinion on this Macca, I've thought about it alot.
Corax ALREADY had the means the make improved marines don't forget. It was only saboteurs that caused them to mutate, and seeing as the saboteurs were uncovered at the end of the story you would have thought the Raven Guard would have put two and two together and realised that, also there was a Blood Angels story where they were going to use the knowledge, so this knowledge is clearly still about.
The thing here I think is that Space Marines are the Supreme Warriors. 30-years trained of the 50-60 best teenager heroes of a given planet. Knights, paladines, heroes all of them. A space marine in 40k is more than just the personality-less supersoldier that Primaris are. And no, the argument "A magus did it" does not convince me at all, as it totally crushes the Space Marine romantic concept of the monk-knight-hero that we all love.
thats actually a really interesting alternative, the whole thunder warriors idea i mean, i never really thought about it. but if they get rid of the normal marines fully (and theres still no sisters of battle) i will 100% stop buying and playing 40k, i bearly have an interest in the normal marines and other stuff they have now.
Well put, great video
Gotta say, I'd prefer the notion of the Primaris Marines to be upgraded Thunder Warriors. Probably make them easy to create and still damn near Custodes levels of OP, but with the issue of shorter lifespans and being as aggressive as their pre 30k ancestors. And while we're at it, why not also only have certain chapters utilize them like the Space Wolves and Blood Angels due to their relativity low numbers and the fact their worlds have had their asses handed to them on a silver platter with whipped butter on the side. Maybe the Mk. 10 PA could a result of years of the Ad Mech filching designs from the Salamanders and Iron Hands, same for some of the weaponry upgrades, but make the stuff about as rare Terminator armor, with maybe the Iron Hands getting more of them due to their friendship with the weirdos from Mars. And while I'm wishing, let the Dark Angels get the Grav Tech along with a few other First Founding chapters. I mean, that stuff could work great for chapters like the Raven Guard and White Scars.
Basically why not break down alot of that Primaris stuff and give it out to other chapters, thus giving everyone upgrades and maybe a couple of new gimmicks or flaws.
I got my own idea for a choas primaris custode primarch sigmarine. Its called a GANGORER. Ask me what it is.
We all want bigger models that are more detailed, I like the primaries marines look and I'm working on an army of exorcist chapter, but I do think there could have been better lore
Eh, they always retcon it to have belisarius borrowing from the research of bile; or for a more fun alternative, a full blown chaotic conspiracy.
U said it right, Great looks, POOR LORE
Primeris marines aren't grim dark and don't have any flaws that make them interesting i think thunder worriers would have been better. It's just shit that they come out of nowhere and refill all the chapters, it takes away from the sense of decline and there is no cost. They are just to perfect
I think GW was poised to capitalize on the demand for “truescale” marines, and accidentally did the worst possible thing imaginable. Instead of releasing a truescale line slightly better scaled to other armies and passing by as a fun move into modern modeling, they tinkered with lore in ways that would make the old nerd cringe.. I’m really let down, I love space marines.. this sh*t is heresy. Also WTF happened to Fantasy??
The primarus are a crutch, a reward for lazy tactics and band wagon mentality
After reading the great work, I kind of like crawl should of built him up rather than just dropping him in.
I don’t think GW gave a shit about the law or history. Primaris Marines were made for finical reason only. And it’s worked their share price has gone up so the Primaris are doing their job well.
It would have been cool if they were just supercharged marines. Bigger, stronger, but more unstable, and with a shorter life expectancy. Kinda like Thunder warriors, but with an updated style, and SOME of the kinks worked out. Used as frontline shock troops, with a focus on close combat. Shotguns, bayonets, and swords.
And make it a really 40k solution to. "Oh, we just made them by putting in twice as many of this organ, and they got bigger!" instead of some perfect super soldier treatment.
plus belly's model is an eyesore. look at that thing! you can't tell what you're looking at!
(*👾*💠* "MAC: *_Clear-The-Area, No-Traces, Get-The-Men-Ready To MOOVE")_*
_("How Do I Get Out Of _*_This 🐔💩 Outfit!?!?")_*
I agree with everything you said apart from how you pronounced abaddon 6:42
What if belisarius secretly worked on the primaris project with perturabo and fabius bile, And what if belisarius is secretly a heretic... probably not
It's sour to me because it retcons or completely disregards precedence set before scientifically and with the Emperor. It's one more piece of a new puzzle that makes the Emperor not necessary. I agree, Fabias Bile could have unlocked something and RG and Cawl could have refined it. I'm with those saying they shouldn't embody full armies, but small elite supplements, like 1:4 or 1:6 or something.
Could even be something that the Emperor himself hadn't finished before he pulled a sickie.
Maybe there was a vault and Cawl wasn't to unleash it's contents until Gulliman (or another suitable leader) was available to oversee their use.
They could've had big e give guillimen the knowledge to make primus marines when they had thier chat
I thought the Alpha Legion gave Bile incomplete data for the raptors?
Full data but they gave him a corrupted sample of the genetic goo, whilst they kept the pure samples for their own legion.
I feel that Primaris Marines should be kept as elites. Primaris are fine, but they should be kept in very small numbers. Primaris should be an elite new warrior, not a new, better in every way, basic Marine.
I hear your views from a plot line point of view may not make sense how the new Primaris marines are explained.. GW could of come up with a better story line.. bottom line they needed to upgrade the models so they could sell more boxes. And I do think the look pretty good, the models are nice, but that is a mater of personal taste. Interesting video.
You should write a book about this happening but not chaos just genius insanity and desperation ...oh It's been done it's called" Halo." Secret lab = "The reach" The tadpole=6year old .....enternating Video but with every story is follow the money...sad move GW BUT it takes a little pressure of forge world's problem...give me the money !
It is a bit silly - there was no lore to cover any other changes in style of GW minis over time.. Look at those old Rogue Trader models, the plastic beakys for example - do those tiny little things look the same as more modern minis? No, yet there was no need to write up fluff to cover this (dramatic) change in looks. The truescale should just have been introduced and Primaris not been a thing at all, the older scale will just be phased out eventually. Until then people ARE able suspend their disbelief - they are playing wargames with mini's ffs!
why not have it so its the same as before but insted of 1 gie making all this stuff they have 1000 000 techpriests working on an uprgrade that the emperor was working on but decided it was unnecessary at the time belasarius plus 999999 other techpriests then completed the half-done work on the orders of a primarch (but Corax instead) by getting all the notes on space marines and Coorax's project aswell as custodes. it theen took them 10 000 years tomake them and all though they claim they are perfect there are hints at notbeing so. as for the actual primaris they can be basically the same but with a 2 part developement where they get a safer but alternately less powerful gene seed turning them into less powerful space marines then after they have matured (and proved them selves) they get a second seed that upgrages them to a primaris marine. this way we could have the old space marine heros also being upgraded aswell has have a second type of new space marines which are slighly worse. As for Bile he could then apear with his uber marines 1st but the imperial primarch is awakened and the primaris along with the other ones rush in and come in and we have the indomius crusade
This video was recommended to me again and I'll gladly watch it again. Still can't stand Primaris.
While I can't deny that Fabius Bile would had made sense it would had went against idea of Primaris Marines being that ray of hope for Imperium that it needs during desperate times and what wouldn't had helped would had been giving Chaos even more powerful traitor marines. At end of day Chaos has been made in lore far too powerful already to get even more powerful traitor marines because there is no way Imperium could realistically survive after that and Imperium is needed in order to that Imperium vs Chaos conflict go on that's core of 40k at cost of Xenos factions getting less attention from GW. When Imperium's enemies get stronger they also need to get stronger in order to survive so while I don't like how Primaris Marines have been handled including copy paste of lore bringing them to different chapters I accept it as needed evil to justify why Imperium has these even better Space Marines that they needed.
They just tried to make marines so on TT they will be like real marines couse regular marine is just a bit better than guardsman. I love most of primaris minis (excluding inceptors) but still I hate them... Once I added some of them to my army they made all their older brothers looks like weaklings.
Lorewise the way they were intorduced was a pure garbage. I don`t know... couldn`t they just keep them at the same size and give them the same look simple explaining that Imperium developed new generation of weapons and equipment? During HH and after it astertes got new armour marks even if Emperor wasn`t helping creating them.
And what with geneseed? New BA codex tells that once Guilliman came to Baal he had Blood angels primaris ready for them. What about blood drinking rituals?
And why Blood angels chapter failed to find the cure for a black rage for thousands years but somehow primaris marines seems to be immune to it (no death company)?
Imo whole this story is full of nonsenses.
Archmagos Dominus Belisarius Cawl was/is one of the foremost genetic specialists of his time "much of Cawl’s biocraft was learned by assisting the greatest geneticist that Mankind has ever known, the Emperor, in the development of the black carapace membrane implanted into Space Marines. At that time, Cawl’s body was still largely flesh." [Codex: Adeptus Mechanicus]
The reason Gulliman entrusted the Sangprimus Portum - a device containing genetic
material harvested from the Primarchs that went beyond even gene-seed in its potency.
[8th editon rulebook]
To Cawl is because he was responsible in part for the creation of the Astartes. The device along with all the Emperors notes were entrusted to him.
Bile on the other hand was/is largely self taught and while he can replicate geneseed and clone primarchs he doesn't have the skill/knowledge to create enhanced geneseed.
So there's some retcon going on here, first, the Sangprimus was taken by Corax in the Horus Heres from beneath the Himalayas where it had resided since the Unification Wars.
Second, why Belisarius when there were so many more important people at the time, such as the gene technicians of Luna, or the Biologis division of Mars? Why is Belisarius Cawl responsible for biological research and yet creating tanks, armour and guns later on? It's like a Doctor who designs tanks in his spare time between patients.
Third, Cawl understands the Black Carapace. Fabius Bile was taught things by Fulgrim, had ALL of Corax's research on his marines which was directly transferred into his mind by the Emperor himself. He also had the genetic stock that Corax used, however, it was tainted. Oh, he also has raw blood and other fluids from the Primarchs and could flawlessly clone them and even clone them with memories intact.
Are you sure the SangPrimus Portum was taken by Corax from under the Himalayas?? Everything I've read said that Corax turned up on Terra after The Dropsite Massacre and had a telepathic chat with The Emperor who gave him the info/passcodes to access the sealed Gene-labs on Luna to retrieve to samples and info he required to rapidly restore the Raven Guard.
The Gene-Techs on Luna where required by the Emperor to mass produce the Geneseed to rapidly grow the at the time small legions that were active, like the Luna Wolves who captured the moon for the Emperor.
For Cawl "he remains a tech-savant, a genius at the forefront of whatever field to which he turns his mind. Even amongst the ranks of the Adeptus Mechanicus - where artificial devices increase brain capacity and extend life beyond measure - such an accumulation of knowledge in multiple disciplines is exceedingly rare. The Priesthood of Mars title such beings as Prime Conduits of the Omnissiah, or as Dominatus Dominus - Master of Masters - and of those few that still survive, Cawl is by far the most active."
[8th Edition Codex: Adeptus Machanicus]
Cawl to me was on the Emperor's "Design team" for the Astartes and probably the only 1 to survive the Heresy. I would trust him like Gulliman to improve upon the work the team did. Bile is but a "mechanic" trained to maintain and fix what the "Design team" created in the field. He might have gleamed some of the secrets of the creation of the Astartes but his knowledge/experience/resources pale in comparison to Cawl has "city-sized laboratories housed in Mars’ extensive underground complexes"
[8th Edition Codex: Adeptus Machanicus]
Sangprimus isn't the name given to what Corax took, you are correct. I re-read to be sure, but Deliverance Lost is a novel that comes from before they force-inserted names into the lore. "Guilliman slashed about himself with the Gladius Incandor. The Gladius Incandor cut this way and that before the Gladius Incandor was buried in the throat of a marine in MK IV armour with the Word Bearer Legion upgrade kit and decals" ~Ruinstorm
Joking aside, all the genetic samples that existed were in a single storage vessel and Corax took the lot. The 'tech savant' is a BS term made up to justify Mary Sue Cawl.
Just like everything else in the 8th ed lore. Such a huge amount of potential but everything shoe horned in, no effort to make it fit the law, no intrigue, gradually killing the grimdark. It's like they went into the nearest GW store, found the 1st 12 year old and told him to write the law for the next edition. So immature, so lazy.
I don't dislike the lore as it is but I must admit that your idea would have been better.
The problems that you have with this potential storyline are number one that Fabius bile is not in good graces with any leadership and chaos number to every time he sets up a new lab it gets destroyed by everybody around him number three gullimamn is a tech guy and not a biology guy. I hate crull. They would have been best served by saying that the Primus are nothing more than a new type of battle armor. After all they show all the different marks of armor including one designed by goloman himself. Sorry if all this is misspelled I'm voice texting
All good! Yes, you are right about Fabius being on the out, but he's a useful tool, especially if he creates superior marines, and a lot of chaos lords would exploit that, maybe Huron Blackheart takes him under his wing and tries to oust Abaddon. There's so many potential story threads here.
Cawl is not a techmarine :D bang
Indeed, hes a KillaKan
Me i use them, i love them , They're very good at long range combat wich is what 40k is about in my opinion. In my opinion if you don't like them , don't use them. And if your opponent does , bite your tongue and don't complain about it.
good video
Lore fine, just 40k not for you.
100% agree
I stopped caring about the lore when abaddons arms fell off.
They actually look like the modern body builder versus the older style (Schwarzenegger etc.). Schwarzenegger himself has described the modern body building look (with the protruding belly due to female growth hormones) as looking like the old style glass Coke bottle. That's what I think of with these. Kye Green vs. Arnold Schwarzenegger. Damn ugly, in other words.
Arnold sculpted his physique, he wanted everything in proportion, not just huge. His body was masterful.
Yeah, they have though pot bellies that the modern modern body builder has. Don't like it. But, that's me.
The Astartes, the EMPORER'S FINEST, are not. All other lore aside that's the problem, it's a problem that's been growing for a while *cough*Grey Knights*cough* but there was always the proviso that the supers special snowflake auxiliary forces were just that, auxiliaries, specialists in their particular field of combat, not a replacement for but merely an addition to the space marine ranks. But now we've got the bigger, badder, altogether better primaris marines, in ultramarine blue no less as if there was any doubt that they're supposed to be anything but space marines version 2.0, frankly it's an insult to the existing space marines, the final nail in their shit filled coffins after having been shat on by GW for so long.
THE MODELS HAVE LEGS THAT AREN'T SHRIMPY. REPLACE ALLLLLLL THE REGULARS WITH THEM BUT LOSE THE BOLT RIFLE.
I dunno. Chaos have enough souped up Marines already? Plague Marines, Berzerkers etc.. Let the Loyalists have some glory.. it can be almost depressing having the Imperium always being on the backfoot, fucked over and attacked from all directions. I LIKE seeing them being GOOD and taking the initiative now and then..