Nice video, I had forgotten how great the old horrors were. I'm curious, did you get Book 8, Macca? The EOH crew seemed to say that you're pretty salty about it. I would love a review from you though.
I am actually ok with book 8, I just see problems and I'm not letting the new book bullshit hype direct me. Would you like more information? Firstly, simple things like wargear selection: brass collars give adamantium will and a 3+ save... and cost the same as a 3+ save. Derp. Posessed troops are total dogshit, not worth the points, IMO it seems good, but no transport, so starting on your board edge, and get no army-wide benefits. If you have a pair of meltaguns on them, and the enemy drives into your deployment zone, uh, great. Also they are a support unit, so not even good as cheap chaff in ZM and characters can't join them they lack armour, have no invul so what exactly are they bringing to the team here? A unit with 4 meltaguns that is cheap I guess? 160 points for 20 boys with 4 meltaguns starting every game 24"+ distance away they have 5+ saves, and get no benefits from any of your army rules. Pass. So I have decided that if you want to be in any way capable of winning a game your list becomes extremely limited. It's basically daemon beasts, shrikes, behemoths and greater beasts and your HQ's. The daemon brutes are the worst, especially the ones on the HQ as he has wings, and is a flying monstrous creature... he loses the ability for a squad to join him. So unless you use one of your two upgrades to give a unit of brutes wings, they are a slow as fuck unit. Further, if you do that, the only upgrade left worth taking is brass collars or else you'll end up with no save! as you move across the table towards your rifts. Sorta limits you to a daemon lord on foot then with no possibility of taking the wings, which means 6" footslogging for your unit across an open table. Psychic power wise, things like the power possession removes the model from play and replaces him with a greater daemon... but then you can't roll a perils because he's no longer in play... so therefore just throw a heap of dice at it? Free Greater daemon for the cost of some shitty basic bitch horror of Tzeentch pls. You're only gonna have limited wizards, and they are a) huge fucking targets and b) the spells are fucking awful except for summoning really really shitty daemons with zero wargear, and even then will use every dice you generate on average just to cast, so the thing is you are really hamstrung if you try and play psyker heavy. Take the power 'sacrifice' you can cause one instant wound to a friendly model, and you summon a Daemon Chosen... basically a naked Ogryn with WS5 and zero upgrades (but pref enemy) for warp charge 1, so in theory you could just take a shitload of chaff psykers and replace all your lesser daemons with that, but what a nightmare. In a marine list, Maelefic daemonology is handy because you can create daemon chaff units, in a Daemon list you.... can't really buff the big daemons, and you can only make little daemons (but even weaker as they have no upgrades, they aren't even bloodletters with powers swords that can kill marines). So, this is my fear, daemon players rock up, they sink all their points into Shrikes with 'shred' and brass collars, and Greater Daemon Beasts in units of 3 with the same upgrades, 6 units of 5 basic bitch scoring troops for the low low price of 240 points combined, zero upgrades, because fuck it. The cherry on top is an Arch Daemon and maybe Samus or Corbax. You'll face a pathetic 60 scoring units, but on the table opposite will be 15 monstrous creatures with S and T of 7-8 and 6 wounds each with rerolling failed wounds in close combat which don't allow armour saves, and half of which are flying MC's which will be on you in turn 2. How. Fucking. Fun. If you decide to take those lesser daemons as psykers, you can potentially swap them out for greater daemons by throwing dice at Number 6 on daemonology, but still, it's risky. They also need to errata the rifts, 3 x 5” impassable hemispheres in ZM is gonna be a problem, just block the doors with your rifts! Lastly, daemon shooting is shit. It just lacks the AP or volume or both, with nothing is better than ap4, most is ap5, and most of it is small templates or low shots. Flaming ichor, 12", small blast, strength user, ap5 Spine volley, 12", assault 2, strength user +1, ap5 Bone shard harpoon, range 12", strength user, ap4 assault 1, pinning I will give it to them, on the right unit, it will have a high strength, but that's it, plus on ichor it's 1 in 3 models that can fire, so you have to pay for every single model to take it, but only 1 in 3 can use it and you use up your precious upgrade slot! Ok, so what about spine volley, assuming you arrive, in range of an enemy, turn 1, with lesser daemons, you get (on a unit of 10) 20 shots, hitting on 3's, wounding on 4's. Congrats on your rapid fire boltguns which you paid 3 points per model for and that's on your 5+ invul only units which are 14 points a model that's rough and you're going to need your rifts all within 12" of the enemy to pull it off. Yeah a ton has to go right for you to have a unit which does marine tactical squad equivalent shooting, and that's only in turns 1 and 2 before they turn into lasguns whilst late game those lesser daemons with spine harpoons will be firing strength 2 shots... ehhhhh...... and if it's turn 7, strength 1. How formidable. So is that enough of a rundown of my problems with the daemons list?
@@TheOuterCircle Thank you for taking the time to answer in detail. Interesting. Sounds like an army for either WAAC people or people who don't care about losing that much. Do you think that they were afraid of getting the same backlash as with non-Marines armies that can be pretty OP such as Legio Custodes, Mechanicum and Solar Auxilia? The Scars and Blood Angels are pretty good though aren't they? Tbh I don't really play the Heresy, don't know anyone in my region, I care more about the collecting/painting aspect of the hobby. That's why I went with Emperor's Children (thanks to you and Leakycheese). I ordered the book to see in what direction they're going now. And the fluff is always pretty great in those books.
@@TheOuterCircle Hey about Massacre I was wondering how do the Daemons transfer over I have a Tzeentch daemon army and was wondering if they had rules because I know the Signus Campaign only mentions Slannesh and Khorne being present as far as I know.
It's pronounced zEEntch not Zentch like peep or deep or beep or seen not zen, if you can't figure how read & properly pronounce words you probably shouldn't make explaination videos man
As to how I would represent Tzeentch based on old lore and representations mixed with how to make sense of geedub’s bullshittery: (For the record: I started warhammer when I was a kid, with 3rd edition (40k), CSM was my first faction, Tzeentch and Nurgle my favourite gods, and Ahriman my favourite character. I can’t talk much about the 80s and 90s because I was born in 95, but I grew up with Tzeentch and I loved him and specially his forced. Tzeentch in many of the old short stories was represented as some kind of maddening amalgamation of shapes, faces and voices, many of which disagreed with each other. Kinda like a massive technicolored and more eldritch version of the horrors. And after all he is partially a living representation of fate, so I think his partially self defeating nature could be explained without resorting to nth dimensional chess moves and pure asspuls: What if he basically wasn’t really a single entity. That is to say, what if he was the literal amalgamation of every possible future. And every one of those faces, and every one of those voices, was basically a different timeline. How this would work is that since he’s the lord of change he would basically be a reverse of the probability: the strongest voices inside of him are those plotting to change the most likely course of history. Essentially, he would be the eternal underdog because by his very nature he would always inevitably side with the underdog. This could explain why he keeps betraying his followers. Quite simply if his followers get strong enough they become the most likely future and so he invariably changes his plans to screw them over, his allegiance would be invariably temporary. That is not to say that he would betray his own plans at the last minute, he’d only do so after they become the mainstream (after they succeed), but this would also mean a more important facet, namely why he keeps lying to his followers, even the ones that would need to know the truth, like the oracle. For those that don’t know the oracle: he has two heads, one tells the truth one lies, both can see the future. Well, the question becomes: why hasn’t the oracle succeeded at anything ever (seriously!) if he knows the future: well what if he doesn’t know what head is what? If Tzeentch is the one from whom this information comes, maybe there is no way to tell which head will lie or tell the truth, not even for the oracle himself, because they both see polar opposite results because one sees the truth and the other lies. This begs the question of why is Tzeentch fucking with this guy, well, what if Tzeentch also has no fucking clue what version is true because, since he’s an amalgamation of futures, all he knows is that two futures have been seen, not which is the real one. See where I’m going with this? Now as to how this could affect how he moves on: you’re right, he should be more efficient. Sure he’s self defeating but wherever there is a stable probable outcome he should be there fucking it. And when he finally fucks something up it could be interesting to see him deal with his followers having established solid ownership of a planet (and therefore becoming his enemies unknowingly) like that could be such a cool fucking storyline. As to why his opponents win, well you’re right too. I’m sick of the just as planned bullshit. It would be so much easier to simply say that since he is ever changing while his starting plans are as solid as they can get the stronger his followers get the more it’ll depend on said followers (who are fallible) to keep them on as the god looses control of his own mind. Transitioning to the point where said followers aren’t underdogs anymore. THAT explains how this being that supposedly knows the future keeps fucking up without resorting to asspulls.
Fools. And if Tzeentch did not bother to win, but keep the game running? If someone wins it's game over.. papa Nurgle wins by stagnation, by the end in itself. Making the unpredictable happening, the weak have motivation to defy their fate, to overcome the strong. The winner wants to keep winning, boring ones trolled by Tzeentch.
@@chronocepter exactly what happens in AoS actually. Chaos is running the show, and sooooomebody felt like telling Teclis and Friends where Slannesh was sleeping off his hangover. Suddenly Khornes folks are turning around and smashing the retreating slaaneshi
The daemons sculpted by Juan Diaz are definitely and by far the best versions, would have to say the forge world Thirster and lord of change are the best greater daemons imo.
A few years ago I was really happy that the Thousand Sons were turned into their own army with new superb plastic models. But I do agree in that I think last generations chaos demons were something special and, as someone who grew up first playing Fantasy in school, have a massive nostalgia factor. Also, just off topic but what was that thematic music playing in the background of your video?
The second iteration of the Flamers of Tzeentch were actually the first models I ever bought and painted - at like age 11 or 12. I remember I somehow managed to pull off this blue into orange transition that I have no idea how I even figured it out at that age. I didn't do much more than that for a few years, but that was really a beginning for me. I just loved the bird-meets monster mushroom idea. So crazy.
What Broke the Fans is history, problems and fixes. Overall the history is there, the problems are few and the fixes are minor if even at all required. Overall it wouldn't be a fair shakedown for me to treat it any other way.
Now to be honest, the audio in the beginning in the video was painful. That is all of the critique i can give. I love Tzeentch and his style, and this video is a treasure for me. Thank you, keep it up.
The channel makes me sad because you’re the perfect voice for everyone that had some much passion for the hobby but slowly became disillusioned by GW’s lacklustre modern direction
Glad you showed some stuff of Warhammer Fantasy. So many people forget that Warhammer was a fantasy first. P.S I agree with you about the models. The Lord of Change models is just beautiful.
6th ed WHFB and 3.5 40k left some huge shoes to fill, I'm not surprised it's still the high water mark of Chaos. And other things too. Also; audio is perfect for this one.
as a Nurglite, what i'd like to see in a great unclean one is drawing from other aspects of Nurgle than just 'bloated rotten thing'. he's got a few bits of iconography and symbols that could be used more effectively. for example: Nurgle has gardens, his whole domain being one big giant, pus-spewing, plague-infested garden, why not have a Great unclean one look like Tree-beard with a nasty rot affliction, rooted tendrils for feet, a staff of festering bark, horns of twisted branches, and moss spilling out of the gut. or take advantage of Nurgle's insectoid affiliation, and have a GUO be a massive bug. i'd just like something other than fat-rotten-flesh-bag, as it's hard to imagine that being the nastiest thing Papa Nurgle has under his command.
Oooh, now I want to model a Great Unclean One modeled after a typhoid or tuberculosis victim/carrier. All pasty sallow flesh with a jaundiced sheen and bloodshot eyes. Maybe long oversized arms ending in claws and shelf-like fungal growths on the back and shoulders with nurglings perched on them.
The avian headed Demons always remind my of the Japanese Tengu or more often the Skeksies from the Dark Crystal. But as a Lovecraft fan, a Shoggoth would be perfect for a Tzeentchean choas spawn. Either that or John Carpenter's The Thing. TBH though, I prefer the Loveracftian style and the "Innsmouth look" for Genestealer Cults. I tend to see the the chaos gods as Morecockian rather than Lovecraftan since they usually seem to be missing a sense of true menace in the now more child friendly 40k setting.
I think they are definitely an amalgamation of Moorcock and Lovecraft and honestly I doubt any of the guys writing fluff for GW prime have ever opened a Moorcock novel, do you like Michael Moorcock should be the first question on the application for the design team.
@@mrspeigel3593 Showing my age now ;) But I'm certain the Lost and the Damned and Slaves to Darkness had a strong Moorcock influence way back in the day, although there probably is some Lovecraft that I just haven't spotted. Sadly, I think you are right about GW of today though. I'm skeptical the design team even know what a paperback looks like. Interestingly in the old White Dwarf the illustrator Carl Critchlow, who drew Thrud the Barbarian, featured as one story, "The Tweleve Tasks of Thrud" where the titular pin headed barbarian had to retrieve the famous black sword from the warrior "Eric of Bonemaloney". I always thought Elric was homaged a little too in the person of Eldrad. Have fun & roll hot.
@Leo Nidas Oh but imagine some Nightlords specific possessed Marines meant to look like human-gargoyle or human-fury amalgams. Maybe the wings and claws are wreathed in warp lightening.
For me, the evolution in most of the Chaos factions goes from whimsical to menacing. I'm not super informed about the current range, but the last time I checked it out, I found a bit too many echoes left of the whimsical left in the Daemon models. That may have changed by now, but I know that that is the issue of them, the continuity of the menacing aesthetic.
Something I will say, which I feel you overlooked, to me the most recent lord of change update is actually quite a change in thematics for the model. Gone is the frail, elderly sorcererbird who masterminds the operation from behind the scenes, wrapped in robes and jewellery, and instead we are presented with a towering shirtless screaming monster who looks more like they're going to tear you limb from limb in a bloodied frenzy rather than use their mind to win the battle. Don't get me wrong, I like the model, but I feel it's lost the sinister intelligence of the previous, and that hits me pretty hard as a Tzeentch fan. Kairos' old model compared to the new is an even more drastic shift in character than the standard lord, omitting the tired old sagelike appearance of one who has perhaps seen far too much than they had ever wished, in favor for the same shrieking birdmonster aesthetic. I always saw the lords as the method behind the madness that is the rest of the Tzeentch daemonic army, and their relatively ordered forms were a reflection of that.
11:38 oh I knew so badly we were getting into the new horrors. Fuck those sculpts so bad, the old horrors were so much cooler. Fucking called it so much.
I loved the intro into Tzeentch in this video. Tzeentch is the strangest of all the chaos gods, change and mutation for the sake of change. A very peculiar god.
This was a really good video. Everything was really thought out, nothing was quietly skipped or justified in a one sided way. Negative criticism was fair and well explained while not being strongly dismissive of other people's views, a difficult problem to handle and one that this content has ended up on the wrong side of sometimes. In fact I think people who do have a problem with this channels content has more to do with the dismissiveness or the "your just wrong" mentality, the Shadowspear coverage was a good example of this. Sure some people will fly off the handle no matter what you do, but if you put yourself in a superior category in terms of views and opinions it tends to make people defensive. This may have started to sound negative but as I said I think this video was done very well and had no weak justification or bad analogies to the car industry that make no sense. All round a much more superior piece of content, very much enjoyed. Hopefully future content will continue to grow in strength, including the more critical pieces.
Holy shit, you like some AoS models... But yeah the acolytes are a pretty badass sculpt tbh. It would be nice to see Tzeentch get something like endless spells in 40K. Just to show he's the master of magic, just treat them like a unit you pay for, and move around, none of the turn swapping stuff. TBH I do sorta miss the old lord of change mini, the one before the latest, it just had some nice detail to it.
Im not a huge fan of the avian theme for tzeench, i'd like to see tzeench take on a more lovecraft mythos demon look, like the faceless ones in wow that serve the old gods, but lookin at 40k you kinda see some cthulu influence in the tyranid models
Seems a bit biased. That faceless Tzeentch Sorcerer seemed pretty interesting, and not as hideous as you made him out to be. One thing of note is that after what I call "The Big Change", followers of Chaos ironically and antithesis became more uniform in appearance, dress and style.
It also helps that's probably the best one you'll ever see, but it was more the fact it basically was a head swap for a standard body, compared to the flowing robes of later wizards who really stood apart.
Sort of off topic, but; I always had a problem with chaos daemons that I couldn't put my finger on for a while, but I thought about it recently and here is as good a place to say it as anywhere. My problem with chaos daemons is that they were made in such a formulaic way. For example you have four gods and each good has it's hq, it's troop, it's fast attack etc. Each gods domain has it's own wildlife with seekers of slaanesh, rot flies of nurgle, hounds of khorne, (tzeench probably has something also I dunno flamers?) The problem is however that their realms altogether seem unfinished. Imagine if life evolved in a similar fashion; this is mammal lion, this is bird lion, this is lizard lion, this is amphibian lion, this is mammal T-Rex, this is bird T-Rex, this is lizard T-Rex, this is amphibian T-Rex, crocodile eyc. They each seem rather uninteresting and incomplete by themselves. It's like Skyrim spells where you have flame thrower, chain thrower, ice thrower, flame bolt, lightning bolt, ice bolt, obviously given different names but that's besides the point. If the gods were given a bit more character it would be interesting. I do have an attacthment to a lot of the designs but regardless I think it would be more interesting if Nurgle, for example, had bulkier units, if each god needed a troop, Nurgles would be bulkier. More than merely 4 toughness, how about slow, 2 wounds, 5 toughness 5 man squad. Though I do think it does get boring fitting many different gods into the binary hq, fast attack, heavy support system GW uses. I don't think it fits such a divergent faction. Maybe Nurgle could specialise in heavy support, Khorne specialise in elites, slaanesh specialise in fast attack, tzeench specialise in Hq, with imps for something general being standard troops. I don't mean to say that there should be no Khorne troops or Hq, there should, and you should be able to make themed armies for specific gods. However, I feel tzeench is more psychics and wouldn't appear in large numbers like Khorne would. Shoe-horning in tzeench troops doesn't fit for me. If a tzeench themed army used general chaos units like my imp placeholder(to expand: imps would serve like a troop version of chaos furies), but had spells that buffed them etc. The point is that different armies from different gods would play differently from each other. Rather than a pure biker army with orks or space Marines you go pure slaanesh. Obviously you could mix and match and make a general chaos army also. The big problem with chaos daemons in my view is that you have four different gods in one faction that is effectively four quarter armies rather than one united army. This is also partly born from the problem that chaos daemons were never supposed to be their own faction and originally only added flavour to chaos space Marines. Still, I think the problem can be solved by what I suggest.
Bloodcrushers were the heavy cavalry, seekers were the light fast cav, screamers harassed units, the horrors were chaff, the plaguebearers could take punishment, the bloodletters were killers, but the daemonettes were less-killy but faster to do it. Everything had a place and a function, but by giving each force a balanced 'force org chart' it took some of that away, they forced models to fit the rules, not rules to fit the models.
I don't think your saying it correctly? I think the "z" should be spoken in the American way not the British way. Yes I'm aware GW is British but I think they use the American "z" to say it?
I will say this much, for 20 years I've said Tzen-t-ch, and I'm not about to stop now, just like how Americans call Aluminium "A-lumin-um" as in it illuminates and is the glowing metal.
I love Tzeentch ever sense the I read the fluff behind Hellbrass in the 5th edition Realm of Chaos Set from WFB. When 6th came out i began to build a Tzeentch themed army. Loved how Tzeentch was the kind of sorcery. Also when i did not play my Alpha Legion back with the 3.5 I played an Tzeentch based warband with my chaos marines. I loved how the spells and the theme was there. But as time went on it for me because harder and harder to play that king of sorcery vibe. I still have my WFB Warriors of Chaos of Tzeentch and did enjoy playing them in 8th edition but my Nurgle forces grow bcause in part the spells where better and I got annoyed with how they made Tzeentch a joke. I feel like this has both happened to Tzeentch and the Alpha Legion which made me almost walk away from GW as a whole. 30k honestly is all the keeps me in the community now.
Those 6th Edition Khorne Daemons were terrible though. They all looked slow and stupid and the Fleshounds turned into dumb looking Lions for some reason. Personally, though, I would enjoy seeing the 6th Edition Bloodletter return as a new type of Daemon. Personally I think they would have made good Heralds of Khorne.
You know I always wonder why they changed so much with the other gods. Clearly the best way to go is just make small touch up here and there like they done with tzeentch.
good video. one thing id say tho, we want them to do some real damage, serious victories? Didnt they destroy the whole planet of warhammer fantasy battle, before breaking down the 4th wall, reaching through into our reality and completely wiping the entire warhammer fantasy battle game from existence? I feel like thats a lot of damage xD
Tzeentch as a whole is okay, but the TSons model line is atrocious. Tzaangors are ported from AoS with little to no modifications (bows in 40k!) and there is a notable lack of Daemon Engines. Somehow despite serving the god of knowledge, the Thousand Sons still cannot design and engineer vehicles of their own and have to use animals instead.
Honestly, many many things. I guess I should start with how I got into this: when I was a kid (I was born in 95) I got the black Templar’s vs dark eldar starter box with a lot of accumulated money from my pay, I was saving money forever just to get that. My first codex was chaos space marines. Not joking: I got it because I thought the black Templars were chaos because they wore black armor. In my defense I was never the sharpest tool in the shed. I grew up with chaos, Ahriman was my first childhood hero and I loved the forces of Tzeentch and Nurgle. Since I didn’t have much money most of my time in the hobby was number crunching, I always loved seeing how I could customize stuff, you can see where this is going. So then the new codex came out and it SUCKED. It was dragons: the codex. The demons had been all but erased and indeed so were most options, fuck whoever made that piece of... *sigh* but I tried to stay positive. Also the new demon miniatures SUCKED ARSE and SPECIALLY the fucking horrors as they lost all their character and of fucking course they were given instruments and bloody banners just what the fuck that should NOT have happened the horrors are a tidal wave of ever changing faces they should not be as defined as their new minis and they should not be caring about fucking banners. Then age of Sigmar came... Do I need to explain that one? By that point I was also into skaven so yeah... that hit me. But it was 8th that was the point at which I realized I would be actively against geedubs. 8th broke me beyond repair. Just fucking look at the thousand sons codex. WHAT IS THAT PIECE OF SHIT?! In the past codexes were beautifully illustrated long books with extremely detailed army lists filled with options. Welp fuck all of that. Most of the “illustrations” were photos of the minis, the lore sucked, the new miniatures almost directly contradicted past lore, it was short as shit, almost barren of customization, with a ridiculous lack of actual units that should be expected and hell the ones that were there were actually inexplicable! How the thousand sons codex should’ve worked is there should’ve been extensive lists for Tzeentch-Mark bearing CSM that weren’t actually part of the original thousand sons (and therefore didn’t have their curse), alongside other lost and the damned, rules for the vehicles even if they have no mini so they can at least be converted, and heavy customization based on their psykers. What we got is practically no renegades, no non-rubric marines, every spellcaster is now a mutant even tho the rubric should’ve stopped that, most of the units are fucking TZAANGORS that suck seven kinds of arse and look and feel ridiculous! And the rubric marines now exhibit an honestly astounding amount of specialization and individuality. Since when can they comprehend complex squad structure and specialized roles? I would understand if all their heavy weapons were in rubric devastador squads but unless the Psyker is micromanaging the hell out of them they really should just not have different weapons in the same squad. Also yet again fuck the stupid ass forced musical instruments and banners, NOT EVEN THE MINDLESS AUTOMATONS ARE SAFE FROM GEEDUBS’ OBSESSION WITH THAT TROPE! YAY! And we still don’t have fucking assault marines or bikers because of fucking course we don’t... hell having an attack bike with a Psyker and a rubric would be amazing but of course chaos never understood having 3 wheels apparently! I got into this because of the stories, the lists and the lore. The stories since gathering storm suck the lore has been assraped and not only does the list building suck nowadays, being essentially like Privateerpress’ stat cards but even what little options we get make no fucking sense! WHAT DIDN’T THEY FUCK?! So these days I just use old miniatures, conversion and recast for collecting purposes and don’t even bother with the new stuff. Fuck geedubs, as far as I’m concerned gathering storm and everything after it never happened and 8th edition doesn’t exist.
Late 7th edition chaos rules were probably the best Daemons will ever get, fun warp storm mechanics, better summoning then we have in 8th (it was also broken and un fun but hey) and great rules for most of the models. Tzeentch still had the absolute worst lore of magic though which is outrageous.
@UCqxdEBIQx8wv6pJ1YQHCAXQ That 30 power dice army you mention is not from 6th its at the beginning of 7th, 12-14 power dice was insanely high numbers in 6th. This is a time when GW did not want to do a new ravening hordes type list for all armies and just told you to play with what ever list they had in 6th. I played ogres at this time and that army went from just ok to unplayable, 2000 pts maxed for ogre magic resistance gave you 6 dispel dice similar to the numbers for dwarf armies as well. It was a time when non magic heavy armies could not compete. Its fun to believe that it was all so thematic but the games were incredibly one sided if that is what is fun for you then you would have had a great time against dwarves. your friend probably found the gamed incredibly dull.
Would be better if you could pronounce Tzeentch correct.. its not Zench. Seriously go to a "how to pronounce site" or even the GW youtube painting Tzeentch stuff.
God 8th edition sucks so bad, i'm so desperately disappointed with it. It lacks all depth and cool special rules even when compared to 7th edition, everything is a modifier.. a re-roll this a +1 that and it's bullshit. There will never be any more cool rules or powers for Tzeentch ever again, just the same as we will never see rules where an ork fighter jet crashes into the target simply because the ork pilot forgot to pull up. All the charm and 40k-ness is gone and so long as the sales are good and casual players who don't really care about it keep buying it, then we will never see the great days of 40k or Fantasy for that matter return. The casual players will prop it up and we will never get what we want from the hobby ever again, they don't even care about these games and their universes they just want something while they wait for the next call of duty to come out. I'm 34 now and I started when I was 10, it's been a part of my whole adult and adolescence life from as far back as I can remember, now however I think I have to say goodbye forever because I can't take these over simplified rules. Fuck it's grim!
Nice video, I had forgotten how great the old horrors were. I'm curious, did you get Book 8, Macca? The EOH crew seemed to say that you're pretty salty about it. I would love a review from you though.
I am actually ok with book 8, I just see problems and I'm not letting the new book bullshit hype direct me. Would you like more information?
Firstly, simple things like wargear selection: brass collars give adamantium will and a 3+ save... and cost the same as a 3+ save.
Derp.
Posessed troops are total dogshit, not worth the points, IMO it seems good, but no transport, so starting on your board edge, and get no army-wide benefits. If you have a pair of meltaguns on them, and the enemy drives into your deployment zone, uh, great. Also they are a support unit, so not even good as cheap chaff in ZM and characters can't join them they lack armour, have no invul so what exactly are they bringing to the team here? A unit with 4 meltaguns that is cheap I guess? 160 points for 20 boys with 4 meltaguns starting every game 24"+ distance away
they have 5+ saves, and get no benefits from any of your army rules. Pass.
So I have decided that if you want to be in any way capable of winning a game your list becomes extremely limited. It's basically daemon beasts, shrikes, behemoths and greater beasts and your HQ's. The daemon brutes are the worst, especially the ones on the HQ as he has wings, and is a flying monstrous creature... he loses the ability for a squad to join him. So unless you use one of your two upgrades to give a unit of brutes wings, they are a slow as fuck unit. Further, if you do that, the only upgrade left worth taking is brass collars or else you'll end up with no save! as you move across the table towards your rifts. Sorta limits you to a daemon lord on foot then with no possibility of taking the wings, which means 6" footslogging for your unit across an open table.
Psychic power wise, things like the power possession removes the model from play and replaces him with a greater daemon... but then you can't roll a perils because he's no longer in play... so therefore just throw a heap of dice at it? Free Greater daemon for the cost of some shitty basic bitch horror of Tzeentch pls. You're only gonna have limited wizards, and they are a) huge fucking targets and b) the spells are fucking awful except for summoning really really shitty daemons with zero wargear, and even then will use every dice you generate on average just to cast, so the thing is you are really hamstrung if you try and play psyker heavy.
Take the power 'sacrifice' you can cause one instant wound to a friendly model, and you summon a Daemon Chosen... basically a naked Ogryn with WS5 and zero upgrades (but pref enemy) for warp charge 1, so in theory you could just take a shitload of chaff psykers and replace all your lesser daemons with that, but what a nightmare.
In a marine list, Maelefic daemonology is handy because you can create daemon chaff units, in a Daemon list you.... can't really buff the big daemons, and you can only make little daemons (but even weaker as they have no upgrades, they aren't even bloodletters with powers swords that can kill marines). So, this is my fear, daemon players rock up, they sink all their points into Shrikes with 'shred' and brass collars, and Greater Daemon Beasts in units of 3 with the same upgrades, 6 units of 5 basic bitch scoring troops for the low low price of 240 points combined, zero upgrades, because fuck it. The cherry on top is an Arch Daemon and maybe Samus or Corbax.
You'll face a pathetic 60 scoring units, but on the table opposite will be 15 monstrous creatures with S and T of 7-8 and 6 wounds each with rerolling failed wounds in close combat which don't allow armour saves, and half of which are flying MC's which will be on you in turn 2.
How. Fucking. Fun.
If you decide to take those lesser daemons as psykers, you can potentially swap them out for greater daemons by throwing dice at Number 6 on daemonology, but still, it's risky.
They also need to errata the rifts, 3 x 5” impassable hemispheres in ZM is gonna be a problem, just block the doors with your rifts!
Lastly, daemon shooting is shit. It just lacks the AP or volume or both, with nothing is better than ap4, most is ap5, and most of it is small templates or low shots.
Flaming ichor, 12", small blast, strength user, ap5
Spine volley, 12", assault 2, strength user +1, ap5
Bone shard harpoon, range 12", strength user, ap4 assault 1, pinning
I will give it to them, on the right unit, it will have a high strength, but that's it, plus on ichor it's 1 in 3 models that can fire, so you have to pay for every single model to take it, but only 1 in 3 can use it and you use up your precious upgrade slot!
Ok, so what about spine volley, assuming you arrive, in range of an enemy, turn 1, with lesser daemons, you get (on a unit of 10) 20 shots, hitting on 3's, wounding on 4's.
Congrats on your rapid fire boltguns which you paid 3 points per model for and that's on your 5+ invul only units which are 14 points a model
that's rough and you're going to need your rifts all within 12" of the enemy to pull it off. Yeah a ton has to go right for you to have a unit which does marine tactical squad equivalent shooting, and that's only in turns 1 and 2 before they turn into lasguns whilst late game those lesser daemons with spine harpoons will be firing strength 2 shots... ehhhhh...... and if it's turn 7, strength 1. How formidable.
So is that enough of a rundown of my problems with the daemons list?
@@TheOuterCircle Thank you for taking the time to answer in detail.
Interesting. Sounds like an army for either WAAC people or people who don't care about losing that much. Do you think that they were afraid of getting the same backlash as with non-Marines armies that can be pretty OP such as Legio Custodes, Mechanicum and Solar Auxilia?
The Scars and Blood Angels are pretty good though aren't they?
Tbh I don't really play the Heresy, don't know anyone in my region, I care more about the collecting/painting aspect of the hobby. That's why I went with Emperor's Children (thanks to you and Leakycheese). I ordered the book to see in what direction they're going now. And the fluff is always pretty great in those books.
@@TheOuterCircle Hey about Massacre I was wondering how do the Daemons transfer over I have a Tzeentch daemon army and was wondering if they had rules because I know the Signus Campaign only mentions Slannesh and Khorne being present as far as I know.
It's pronounced zEEntch not Zentch like peep or deep or beep or seen not zen, if you can't figure how read & properly pronounce words you probably shouldn't make explaination videos man
>people getting mad about him pronouncing the name a certain way
Nah
>Tzeentch would prefer his name being pronounced a billion different ways
Ye
Lemmy S. Kelton
You, a true intellectual
All hail Tsien-Tsin, Lord of the Thousand-Tiered Pagoda!
@@eruantien9932 Damn that's OG Warhammer.
It’s still mildly annoying but I understand that
I used to think it was pronounced Tweezinch
You could say what CHANGED the fans!
CuddlesWorth but that does not fit the hater narrative.
@@craigjones7343 come on mate
Eeeyyyyy.
ouch that fucking hurt me as a tzeentch player
Ironic that the god of change has changed the least
Like they say. The only constant is change
@@Monkeyman12534 shiiiiiet
@@Monkeyman12534 underrated comment
Well you know what they say, the more things that change, the more things that stay the same!
@@diegodankquixote-wry3242 ayyyyyy (finger bolters)
Out of all the Chaos gods, Tzeentch has definitely stuck to its roots and aged the best
Ultimate irony
It is all part of his plan.
Kinda makes me want to be a tzeench fan even more! He is very interesting.
Those Horrors within horrors were so good. I've just gotten back into 40k and Chaos and was dismayed to see them gone.
It is irony that, in 40k, change does not matter. An event will "change everything", but the status quo stays the same
So Tzeentch runs GW. Well that explains it!
Ironic, the chaos god of change is the one who's changed the least...
JUST AS PLANNED! NYEHEHEHE!
There's two E's in it mate
As to how I would represent Tzeentch based on old lore and representations mixed with how to make sense of geedub’s bullshittery:
(For the record: I started warhammer when I was a kid, with 3rd edition (40k), CSM was my first faction, Tzeentch and Nurgle my favourite gods, and Ahriman my favourite character. I can’t talk much about the 80s and 90s because I was born in 95, but I grew up with Tzeentch and I loved him and specially his forced.
Tzeentch in many of the old short stories was represented as some kind of maddening amalgamation of shapes, faces and voices, many of which disagreed with each other. Kinda like a massive technicolored and more eldritch version of the horrors. And after all he is partially a living representation of fate, so I think his partially self defeating nature could be explained without resorting to nth dimensional chess moves and pure asspuls:
What if he basically wasn’t really a single entity. That is to say, what if he was the literal amalgamation of every possible future. And every one of those faces, and every one of those voices, was basically a different timeline.
How this would work is that since he’s the lord of change he would basically be a reverse of the probability: the strongest voices inside of him are those plotting to change the most likely course of history. Essentially, he would be the eternal underdog because by his very nature he would always inevitably side with the underdog.
This could explain why he keeps betraying his followers. Quite simply if his followers get strong enough they become the most likely future and so he invariably changes his plans to screw them over, his allegiance would be invariably temporary.
That is not to say that he would betray his own plans at the last minute, he’d only do so after they become the mainstream (after they succeed), but this would also mean a more important facet, namely why he keeps lying to his followers, even the ones that would need to know the truth, like the oracle.
For those that don’t know the oracle: he has two heads, one tells the truth one lies, both can see the future. Well, the question becomes: why hasn’t the oracle succeeded at anything ever (seriously!) if he knows the future: well what if he doesn’t know what head is what? If Tzeentch is the one from whom this information comes, maybe there is no way to tell which head will lie or tell the truth, not even for the oracle himself, because they both see polar opposite results because one sees the truth and the other lies. This begs the question of why is Tzeentch fucking with this guy, well, what if Tzeentch also has no fucking clue what version is true because, since he’s an amalgamation of futures, all he knows is that two futures have been seen, not which is the real one.
See where I’m going with this? Now as to how this could affect how he moves on: you’re right, he should be more efficient. Sure he’s self defeating but wherever there is a stable probable outcome he should be there fucking it. And when he finally fucks something up it could be interesting to see him deal with his followers having established solid ownership of a planet (and therefore becoming his enemies unknowingly) like that could be such a cool fucking storyline. As to why his opponents win, well you’re right too. I’m sick of the just as planned bullshit. It would be so much easier to simply say that since he is ever changing while his starting plans are as solid as they can get the stronger his followers get the more it’ll depend on said followers (who are fallible) to keep them on as the god looses control of his own mind. Transitioning to the point where said followers aren’t underdogs anymore. THAT explains how this being that supposedly knows the future keeps fucking up without resorting to asspulls.
I didn't expect that, lol
Nice. This is now head cannon.
Fools. And if Tzeentch did not bother to win, but keep the game running? If someone wins it's game over.. papa Nurgle wins by stagnation, by the end in itself. Making the unpredictable happening, the weak have motivation to defy their fate, to overcome the strong. The winner wants to keep winning, boring ones trolled by Tzeentch.
@@chronocepter exactly what happens in AoS actually. Chaos is running the show, and sooooomebody felt like telling Teclis and Friends where Slannesh was sleeping off his hangover. Suddenly Khornes folks are turning around and smashing the retreating slaaneshi
FYI the audio level in this video was perfect!
6:09 Moonman?
The daemons sculpted by Juan Diaz are definitely and by far the best versions, would have to say the forge world Thirster and lord of change are the best greater daemons imo.
I dunno... That new Keeper of Secrets spoiler was psychotically good, damn near perfect, if you ask me.
A few years ago I was really happy that the Thousand Sons were turned into their own army with new superb plastic models. But I do agree in that I think last generations chaos demons were something special and, as someone who grew up first playing Fantasy in school, have a massive nostalgia factor.
Also, just off topic but what was that thematic music playing in the background of your video?
Uncle Tzeentch has already won the Great Game, now he plays for fun. And not just in the 40K universe, ours as well...
The second iteration of the Flamers of Tzeentch were actually the first models I ever bought and painted - at like age 11 or 12. I remember I somehow managed to pull off this blue into orange transition that I have no idea how I even figured it out at that age. I didn't do much more than that for a few years, but that was really a beginning for me. I just loved the bird-meets monster mushroom idea. So crazy.
This was less a "Tzeentch: what broke the fans" and more a "Tzeentch: a love letter"
Great video as per usual though, Macca :)
What Broke the Fans is history, problems and fixes. Overall the history is there, the problems are few and the fixes are minor if even at all required. Overall it wouldn't be a fair shakedown for me to treat it any other way.
Now to be honest, the audio in the beginning in the video was painful. That is all of the critique i can give.
I love Tzeentch and his style, and this video is a treasure for me. Thank you, keep it up.
Another great video from Macca, will you do an update for the "Getting started in the Horus Heresy"?
Great vid maaan ! 👍💎
The channel makes me sad because you’re the perfect voice for everyone that had some much passion for the hobby but slowly became disillusioned by GW’s lacklustre modern direction
the weird thing is that Skaarbrand is not an alternative build for the kit. He's his own kit for some reason.
Glad you showed some stuff of Warhammer Fantasy. So many people forget that Warhammer was a fantasy first.
P.S I agree with you about the models. The Lord of Change models is just beautiful.
Vrey nice look at Tzeentch, have subscribed, all the best Garry
6th ed WHFB and 3.5 40k left some huge shoes to fill, I'm not surprised it's still the high water mark of Chaos. And other things too.
Also; audio is perfect for this one.
as a Nurglite, what i'd like to see in a great unclean one is drawing from other aspects of Nurgle than just 'bloated rotten thing'. he's got a few bits of iconography and symbols that could be used more effectively. for example: Nurgle has gardens, his whole domain being one big giant, pus-spewing, plague-infested garden, why not have a Great unclean one look like Tree-beard with a nasty rot affliction, rooted tendrils for feet, a staff of festering bark, horns of twisted branches, and moss spilling out of the gut. or take advantage of Nurgle's insectoid affiliation, and have a GUO be a massive bug. i'd just like something other than fat-rotten-flesh-bag, as it's hard to imagine that being the nastiest thing Papa Nurgle has under his command.
Oooh, now I want to model a Great Unclean One modeled after a typhoid or tuberculosis victim/carrier. All pasty sallow flesh with a jaundiced sheen and bloodshot eyes. Maybe long oversized arms ending in claws and shelf-like fungal growths on the back and shoulders with nurglings perched on them.
Im a Slaanesh fan but have to admit most of my favourite 40k stories involve Tzeench in them.
The avian headed Demons always remind my of the Japanese Tengu or more often the Skeksies from the Dark Crystal. But as a Lovecraft fan, a Shoggoth would be perfect for a Tzeentchean choas spawn. Either that or John Carpenter's The Thing. TBH though, I prefer the Loveracftian style and the "Innsmouth look" for Genestealer Cults. I tend to see the the chaos gods as Morecockian rather than Lovecraftan since they usually seem to be missing a sense of true menace in the now more child friendly 40k setting.
I think they are definitely an amalgamation of Moorcock and Lovecraft and honestly I doubt any of the guys writing fluff for GW prime have ever opened a Moorcock novel, do you like Michael Moorcock should be the first question on the application for the design team.
@@mrspeigel3593 Showing my age now ;) But I'm certain the Lost and the Damned and Slaves to Darkness had a strong Moorcock influence way back in the day, although there probably is some Lovecraft that I just haven't spotted. Sadly, I think you are right about GW of today though. I'm skeptical the design team even know what a paperback looks like.
Interestingly in the old White Dwarf the illustrator Carl Critchlow, who drew Thrud the Barbarian, featured as one story, "The Tweleve Tasks of Thrud" where the titular pin headed barbarian had to retrieve the famous black sword from the warrior "Eric of Bonemaloney". I always thought Elric was homaged a little too in the person of Eldrad.
Have fun & roll hot.
the new keeper of secrets really draws a lot of inspiration from Del Toros creatures then anything else, and i really like it.
I just want new night lords models
@Leo Nidas Oh but imagine some Nightlords specific possessed Marines meant to look like human-gargoyle or human-fury amalgams. Maybe the wings and claws are wreathed in warp lightening.
I as an iron warriors player can empathise with you on that one.
Even if everything in MK3 is tactically an iron warrior...
God damn those 6E horrors were fantastic.
For me, the evolution in most of the Chaos factions goes from whimsical to menacing. I'm not super informed about the current range, but the last time I checked it out, I found a bit too many echoes left of the whimsical left in the Daemon models. That may have changed by now, but I know that that is the issue of them, the continuity of the menacing aesthetic.
ooh i want one lord of changes... please release it on the philippines
6 Edition Bloodletters look like what I’ve always assumed Fantasy Khorngors would appear as (maybe with more armor added).
[Incert a comment stating that we aren't broken we just changed here.]
great work, again ! Have any thoughts on The Old World Dark Elves? It's amazing seeing the Druchii rise and fall and now in aos be next to nothing.
Something I will say, which I feel you overlooked, to me the most recent lord of change update is actually quite a change in thematics for the model. Gone is the frail, elderly sorcererbird who masterminds the operation from behind the scenes, wrapped in robes and jewellery, and instead we are presented with a towering shirtless screaming monster who looks more like they're going to tear you limb from limb in a bloodied frenzy rather than use their mind to win the battle.
Don't get me wrong, I like the model, but I feel it's lost the sinister intelligence of the previous, and that hits me pretty hard as a Tzeentch fan. Kairos' old model compared to the new is an even more drastic shift in character than the standard lord, omitting the tired old sagelike appearance of one who has perhaps seen far too much than they had ever wished, in favor for the same shrieking birdmonster aesthetic.
I always saw the lords as the method behind the madness that is the rest of the Tzeentch daemonic army, and their relatively ordered forms were a reflection of that.
could you do an update for the rules and cults released in the ritual of the damned
11:38 oh I knew so badly we were getting into the new horrors. Fuck those sculpts so bad, the old horrors were so much cooler. Fucking called it so much.
I loved the intro into Tzeentch in this video. Tzeentch is the strangest of all the chaos gods, change and mutation for the sake of change. A very peculiar god.
HEY HEY PEOPLE
Tzantach here
This was a really good video. Everything was really thought out, nothing was quietly skipped or justified in a one sided way. Negative criticism was fair and well explained while not being strongly dismissive of other people's views, a difficult problem to handle and one that this content has ended up on the wrong side of sometimes. In fact I think people who do have a problem with this channels content has more to do with the dismissiveness or the "your just wrong" mentality, the Shadowspear coverage was a good example of this. Sure some people will fly off the handle no matter what you do, but if you put yourself in a superior category in terms of views and opinions it tends to make people defensive.
This may have started to sound negative but as I said I think this video was done very well and had no weak justification or bad analogies to the car industry that make no sense. All round a much more superior piece of content, very much enjoyed. Hopefully future content will continue to grow in strength, including the more critical pieces.
Holy shit, you like some AoS models... But yeah the acolytes are a pretty badass sculpt tbh. It would be nice to see Tzeentch get something like endless spells in 40K. Just to show he's the master of magic, just treat them like a unit you pay for, and move around, none of the turn swapping stuff. TBH I do sorta miss the old lord of change mini, the one before the latest, it just had some nice detail to it.
What I want to see is Tzeentch vehicles and more daemon special characters.
The new KoS is the best one ever imo
Im not a huge fan of the avian theme for tzeench, i'd like to see tzeench take on a more lovecraft mythos demon look, like the faceless ones in wow that serve the old gods, but lookin at 40k you kinda see some cthulu influence in the tyranid models
It would fit in nicely with Hastur The Yellow Kings mythos
I like how modern horrors are just magic demon squigs lmao
Just me who really loves the third gen pink horrors
When do we get Binchickens of Tzeentch?
Change, change broke the fans...
Seems a bit biased. That faceless Tzeentch Sorcerer seemed pretty interesting, and not as hideous as you made him out to be. One thing of note is that after what I call "The Big Change", followers of Chaos ironically and antithesis became more uniform in appearance, dress and style.
It also helps that's probably the best one you'll ever see, but it was more the fact it basically was a head swap for a standard body, compared to the flowing robes of later wizards who really stood apart.
What audio track is in the background?
guess that pronunciation is an Aussie thing cause that's how I've almost always heard it pronounced as well
I think there was one earlier horror that came in pairs and looked like frying pans.
Sort of off topic, but; I always had a problem with chaos daemons that I couldn't put my finger on for a while, but I thought about it recently and here is as good a place to say it as anywhere.
My problem with chaos daemons is that they were made in such a formulaic way. For example you have four gods and each good has it's hq, it's troop, it's fast attack etc. Each gods domain has it's own wildlife with seekers of slaanesh, rot flies of nurgle, hounds of khorne, (tzeench probably has something also I dunno flamers?) The problem is however that their realms altogether seem unfinished. Imagine if life evolved in a similar fashion; this is mammal lion, this is bird lion, this is lizard lion, this is amphibian lion, this is mammal T-Rex, this is bird T-Rex, this is lizard T-Rex, this is amphibian T-Rex, crocodile eyc. They each seem rather uninteresting and incomplete by themselves. It's like Skyrim spells where you have flame thrower, chain thrower, ice thrower, flame bolt, lightning bolt, ice bolt, obviously given different names but that's besides the point. If the gods were given a bit more character it would be interesting. I do have an attacthment to a lot of the designs but regardless I think it would be more interesting if Nurgle, for example, had bulkier units, if each god needed a troop, Nurgles would be bulkier. More than merely 4 toughness, how about slow, 2 wounds, 5 toughness 5 man squad.
Though I do think it does get boring fitting many different gods into the binary hq, fast attack, heavy support system GW uses. I don't think it fits such a divergent faction. Maybe Nurgle could specialise in heavy support, Khorne specialise in elites, slaanesh specialise in fast attack, tzeench specialise in Hq, with imps for something general being standard troops. I don't mean to say that there should be no Khorne troops or Hq, there should, and you should be able to make themed armies for specific gods. However, I feel tzeench is more psychics and wouldn't appear in large numbers like Khorne would. Shoe-horning in tzeench troops doesn't fit for me. If a tzeench themed army used general chaos units like my imp placeholder(to expand: imps would serve like a troop version of chaos furies), but had spells that buffed them etc. The point is that different armies from different gods would play differently from each other. Rather than a pure biker army with orks or space Marines you go pure slaanesh. Obviously you could mix and match and make a general chaos army also.
The big problem with chaos daemons in my view is that you have four different gods in one faction that is effectively four quarter armies rather than one united army. This is also partly born from the problem that chaos daemons were never supposed to be their own faction and originally only added flavour to chaos space Marines. Still, I think the problem can be solved by what I suggest.
Bloodcrushers were the heavy cavalry, seekers were the light fast cav, screamers harassed units, the horrors were chaff, the plaguebearers could take punishment, the bloodletters were killers, but the daemonettes were less-killy but faster to do it.
Everything had a place and a function, but by giving each force a balanced 'force org chart' it took some of that away, they forced models to fit the rules, not rules to fit the models.
The T on the front of Tzeentch is specifically there to prevent it being pronounced zentch.
Isn't the Z Silent?
Very funny.
I want to play Tzeentch, but it sucks so much I just don't want to start it anyway.
Didn’t the Thousand Sons, take out Mordian?
Can you make grey knights what broke the fans
What is to the left of Changeling @12:50
Curseling
I don't think your saying it correctly? I think the "z" should be spoken in the American way not the British way. Yes I'm aware GW is British but I think they use the American "z" to say it?
There is no right way to say tzeentch. He is the god of change after all
Could be worse, for the longest time I thought it was pronounced tzeen-tek for some reason. (which does sound way cooler, fite me)
it's nothing to do with the Z being american or English, it's a double E that he's getting wrong.
@@Magnanimoose I'm glad I'm not the only one. That's exactly how I head pronounced it when I first read it many many moons ago.
I will say this much, for 20 years I've said Tzen-t-ch, and I'm not about to stop now, just like how Americans call Aluminium "A-lumin-um" as in it illuminates and is the glowing metal.
That new Slannesh model...
Zench
I love Tzeentch ever sense the I read the fluff behind Hellbrass in the 5th edition Realm of Chaos Set from WFB. When 6th came out i began to build a Tzeentch themed army. Loved how Tzeentch was the kind of sorcery. Also when i did not play my Alpha Legion back with the 3.5 I played an Tzeentch based warband with my chaos marines. I loved how the spells and the theme was there. But as time went on it for me because harder and harder to play that king of sorcery vibe. I still have my WFB Warriors of Chaos of Tzeentch and did enjoy playing them in 8th edition but my Nurgle forces grow bcause in part the spells where better and I got annoyed with how they made Tzeentch a joke. I feel like this has both happened to Tzeentch and the Alpha Legion which made me almost walk away from GW as a whole. 30k honestly is all the keeps me in the community now.
Those 6th Edition Khorne Daemons were terrible though. They all looked slow and stupid and the Fleshounds turned into dumb looking Lions for some reason. Personally, though, I would enjoy seeing the 6th Edition Bloodletter return as a new type of Daemon. Personally I think they would have made good Heralds of Khorne.
Could have shown 40k Lion as a joke ;]
You know I always wonder why they changed so much with the other gods. Clearly the best way to go is just make small touch up here and there like they done with tzeentch.
I do like the older WFB Tzeentch characters (Humanish)
RIP Warmaster
looks like The Dark Crystal
I wish the Tzeentch Demonprince wouldn't be so fed up on testosterone. Arnold is just not what comes to my mind when thinking of Tzeentch.
Zench.
The 6th edition demons look the best
good video. one thing id say tho, we want them to do some real damage, serious victories? Didnt they destroy the whole planet of warhammer fantasy battle, before breaking down the 4th wall, reaching through into our reality and completely wiping the entire warhammer fantasy battle game from existence?
I feel like thats a lot of damage xD
Tzeentch as a whole is okay, but the TSons model line is atrocious. Tzaangors are ported from AoS with little to no modifications (bows in 40k!) and there is a notable lack of Daemon Engines. Somehow despite serving the god of knowledge, the Thousand Sons still cannot design and engineer vehicles of their own and have to use animals instead.
The later metal horrors were so damn cool. The new ones just look weird.
I don’t really think the fans were broken tbh
I was a fan and I was broken.
The Spanish Inquisition what broke u
@@sembowden2893
And was it the planet that broke first?
Honestly, many many things. I guess I should start with how I got into this: when I was a kid (I was born in 95) I got the black Templar’s vs dark eldar starter box with a lot of accumulated money from my pay, I was saving money forever just to get that. My first codex was chaos space marines. Not joking: I got it because I thought the black Templars were chaos because they wore black armor. In my defense I was never the sharpest tool in the shed. I grew up with chaos, Ahriman was my first childhood hero and I loved the forces of Tzeentch and Nurgle. Since I didn’t have much money most of my time in the hobby was number crunching, I always loved seeing how I could customize stuff, you can see where this is going.
So then the new codex came out and it SUCKED. It was dragons: the codex. The demons had been all but erased and indeed so were most options, fuck whoever made that piece of... *sigh* but I tried to stay positive. Also the new demon miniatures SUCKED ARSE and SPECIALLY the fucking horrors as they lost all their character and of fucking course they were given instruments and bloody banners just what the fuck that should NOT have happened the horrors are a tidal wave of ever changing faces they should not be as defined as their new minis and they should not be caring about fucking banners.
Then age of Sigmar came... Do I need to explain that one? By that point I was also into skaven so yeah... that hit me.
But it was 8th that was the point at which I realized I would be actively against geedubs. 8th broke me beyond repair. Just fucking look at the thousand sons codex. WHAT IS THAT PIECE OF SHIT?! In the past codexes were beautifully illustrated long books with extremely detailed army lists filled with options. Welp fuck all of that. Most of the “illustrations” were photos of the minis, the lore sucked, the new miniatures almost directly contradicted past lore, it was short as shit, almost barren of customization, with a ridiculous lack of actual units that should be expected and hell the ones that were there were actually inexplicable!
How the thousand sons codex should’ve worked is there should’ve been extensive lists for Tzeentch-Mark bearing CSM that weren’t actually part of the original thousand sons (and therefore didn’t have their curse), alongside other lost and the damned, rules for the vehicles even if they have no mini so they can at least be converted, and heavy customization based on their psykers.
What we got is practically no renegades, no non-rubric marines, every spellcaster is now a mutant even tho the rubric should’ve stopped that, most of the units are fucking TZAANGORS that suck seven kinds of arse and look and feel ridiculous! And the rubric marines now exhibit an honestly astounding amount of specialization and individuality. Since when can they comprehend complex squad structure and specialized roles? I would understand if all their heavy weapons were in rubric devastador squads but unless the Psyker is micromanaging the hell out of them they really should just not have different weapons in the same squad. Also yet again fuck the stupid ass forced musical instruments and banners, NOT EVEN THE MINDLESS AUTOMATONS ARE SAFE FROM GEEDUBS’ OBSESSION WITH THAT TROPE! YAY! And we still don’t have fucking assault marines or bikers because of fucking course we don’t... hell having an attack bike with a Psyker and a rubric would be amazing but of course chaos never understood having 3 wheels apparently!
I got into this because of the stories, the lists and the lore. The stories since gathering storm suck the lore has been assraped and not only does the list building suck nowadays, being essentially like Privateerpress’ stat cards but even what little options we get make no fucking sense! WHAT DIDN’T THEY FUCK?! So these days I just use old miniatures, conversion and recast for collecting purposes and don’t even bother with the new stuff. Fuck geedubs, as far as I’m concerned gathering storm and everything after it never happened and 8th edition doesn’t exist.
The Spanish Inquisition fair enough
What broke the fans? Absolutely nothing, we stand still in love with our models and god, tho...that might change.
CREEEEEEEED
Surprise twist. The fans have never been broken. Just crusty old elitist neck beards are broken.
The nerd god
Late 7th edition chaos rules were probably the best Daemons will ever get, fun warp storm mechanics, better summoning then we have in 8th (it was also broken and un fun but hey) and great rules for most of the models. Tzeentch still had the absolute worst lore of magic though which is outrageous.
Yeah T man needs losses due to timing and plots that play out like rock paper scissors, easy mistakes but also wins that are just as spectacular.
I pronounce it "siinsch"
Where r u Macca???? Did GW finally put a hit out on you for not being a shill? But for real hope you are doing well.
zen? zeen as in seen.
The FW GUO is so good its still better than the gw one.
@UCqxdEBIQx8wv6pJ1YQHCAXQ That 30 power dice army you mention is not from 6th its at the beginning of 7th, 12-14 power dice was insanely high numbers in 6th. This is a time when GW did not want to do a new ravening hordes type list for all armies and just told you to play with what ever list they had in 6th. I played ogres at this time and that army went from just ok to unplayable, 2000 pts maxed for ogre magic resistance gave you 6 dispel dice similar to the numbers for dwarf armies as well. It was a time when non magic heavy armies could not compete. Its fun to believe that it was all so thematic but the games were incredibly one sided if that is what is fun for you then you would have had a great time against dwarves. your friend probably found the gamed incredibly dull.
Honestly I'm really not a fan of how he's being flanderized into the "bird" god Those older pink horrors were perfect.
This. Imagine if nurgle was nothing but bug heads.
I like zench's birdsthetic
It's an imaginary name, attributed to an imaginary character. Relax people...
its pronounced zee-nch
Tzentch not tzANTCH
deamonettes have gone down hill since GW is scared of the woke crowd (funny thing to take from your video)
Would be better if you could pronounce Tzeentch correct.. its not Zench.
Seriously go to a "how to pronounce site" or even the GW youtube painting Tzeentch stuff.
God 8th edition sucks so bad, i'm so desperately disappointed with it.
It lacks all depth and cool special rules even when compared to 7th edition, everything is a modifier.. a re-roll this a +1 that and it's bullshit.
There will never be any more cool rules or powers for Tzeentch ever again, just the same as we will never see rules where an ork fighter jet crashes into the target simply because the ork pilot forgot to pull up.
All the charm and 40k-ness is gone and so long as the sales are good and casual players who don't really care about it keep buying it, then we will never see the great days of 40k or Fantasy for that matter return.
The casual players will prop it up and we will never get what we want from the hobby ever again, they don't even care about these games and their universes they just want something while they wait for the next call of duty to come out.
I'm 34 now and I started when I was 10, it's been a part of my whole adult and adolescence life from as far back as I can remember, now however I think I have to say goodbye forever because I can't take these over simplified rules.
Fuck it's grim!
bruh its pronounced 'tez-neech'. get with the plan
what broke the fans? mispronouncing characters names, as soon as you started speaking I knew I couldn't watch this one, and lack of pop blocker
this dude aint a fan. just a wiki reader.
zench lol.
Zench