Jordan Peterson: Where Carl Jung was Wrong!
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- Опубліковано 1 тра 2021
- Jordan Peterson frequently draws on the insights of psychologist Carl Jung be it on psychology and on mythology. But on which views of Jung does Peterson disagree? This was part of his Q&A 05-01-2021.
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Reading the red book currently and it’s been a trip. His thoughts are so complex that I often have to take breaks, go back to the book and reread an entire chapter. And I find that there are layers of meaning one can derive from his work.
“You must know one thing above all: a succession of words does not have only one meaning. But men strive to assign only a single meaning to a sequence of words, in order to have an unambiguous language. [..] Mankind is a slave to his own words. Words should not become Gods.”
- Carl Jung, The Red Book - Chapter IV: the Anchorite (day 1)
That's because his red book was made for him, not you. You have to make your own "red book", have you tried applying the technique that Jung said?
The mark of intelligence is the ability to communicate complex ideas in a simple framework. Safe to say, Jordan is simply "above average", respectfully. "Maps of Meaning" isn't a tome...it's an anthology lol.
The levels of conciousness or unconscious to be able to think thoughts like Jung’s is hair raising
@@analisandohistorias not all of us want to take several years out of our lives directly experiencing the unconscious self. for a lot of people who repeat that experiment in some capacity it tends to end in disaster and bitterness.
never read the red book. i drew this conclusion years ago in principle, but it came into sharper focus in listening to some stuff by an avid appreciator of jung. makes me wonder how much this is intuitive to certain kinds of people, and how much certain big universities had access to this long before it was published. speech is layered, often manifesting several meanings within it, with the author frequently unconscious (sometimes wilfully) of the extent to which he is expressing inner matters.
Jung was rushing. He rushed because he was the only one doing all the heavy lifting within his psychology. And he needed to prove something.
If you had to create a new psychology, do you move down a path that shows evidence at a faster pace???
Or
Do you go down a path that may show evidence but you need more time?
Jung needed more time and more modern science. But I will say this, Jung, over time, will prove himself.
You are quite correct sir, it's interesting that you thought of that.
Working hard does not mean rush. Nobody can chase Jung but that does not mean he was rushing ahead of somebody. Investigation is not a sportlike.
@@5xing8gua I think OP meant rushing to make evidence in his own mortal lifetime
i dont think he rushed at all
@@funkyboodah i think what he means is that one lifetime is not enough time for one man to create a complete psychological model from scratch. his theories were muddled and vague, but it was the best he could do at the time. jung was a pioneer of the field. lobotomy and shock therapy were common practice back then and thought to be the best legitimate treatments for mental disorders we didn't fully understand. and we barely understand them even nowadays. prescription medication is basically a form of chemical lobotomy, and the only alternatives we have are wishy washy "new age" stuff like somatic therapy or holistic medicine. psychology is still a very new science. Jung was eons ahead of his time. in a similar way as Nikola Tesla. but very few were willing to back either of them. for that reason their work never came to full fruition, and now all we have is bits and pieces of an unfinished puzzle we can take from and try to work with. Jung may not have been able to make any sort of real-world impact with his work but at least he offered a way for some people to get a grasp on reality without having to go through such invasive medical procedures, or getting roped into some cult.
To those questions at the end, 10 years ago, the answers would have been "no, no, no, no" I'm genuinely surprised by how many of those questions I can answer "yes" to, today. This man saved my life, and, for that, I'm eternally grateful.
You saved your life too. The power of the individual.
I say the same thing about Jung. I gained so much perspective on the nature of my inner experience, and what it all represents, that it put me in the driver's for the first time. I do recognize the importance of the questions you referenced, but those questions just didn't mean anything to my personal experience, so it's like the psychology that speaks to us the most will reflect our personal dispositions, and without a doubt for me that's Jung. For some, Adler will be preferred, and so on. So really, the title is misleading. It should be something like, "where Jung was biased", or, "Jung's blind spot". Point being, it's much more nuanced the binary thinking of right and wrong.
Me too
As a professor emerita, I respect JP’s logic and discipline. As a psychotherapist, parent, and an INFJ, Carl Jung’s work has enlightened me the most.
And JPs made you want to die more than ever lmao
Hmm a professor and psychotherapist using Myers Briggs categorisation? Interesting.
@@dragster9070 I rly had the same thought lmao
Jung enlighten you? He thought personality was part of the collective unconscious. When a patient is having some neurosis, do you get a ouji board out like he did? Or do you prefer tarot reading his other tool. You believers in Jung are a bunch of fruit cakes. Psychotherapist are into Jung and psychiatrist are into drugs. No wonder the mental health field needs an overhaul. Forty percent of teens are on some kind of pill, therapy, or considered to have some mental health issue by you folks. That's outrageous. You folks are the ones with the problem.
INFJ is what?
I think Jung was, as mentioned, an archaeologist of the psyche (very intelligent remark). If you do his work in a sacred context, it will reveal treasures to you and heal you.
And no coincidence, Jung had wanted to go into archeology as a profession, but family finances forced him into medicine.
💚🧚♀️
One doesn't simply point out that Jung is wrong!
To a degree, I agree. I'd bet odds are like 1000 to 1,,,that Mr. Peterson would approve (at all) of the chosen Title of this clip. Mr. Peterson says many sensible Good things yet he clearly is not without prejudices and they are obvious to those who analyze his concepts. He has too much certainty as do most. As Samuel Jackson would say, ""Nowadays M'fkers KNOW". lololol
Certainly not a PC of trash like jp
I see what you did there 😆
Jung was wrong. There ... I said it.
@@joshgraham4399 Wait, is this psychology class or did I accidentally walk into the wrong class room and we are studying philosophy. And Jung got himself confused. Yes, he did. Too much opium - the Marijuana of his day. You sound like my 13 year old friend after pot and watching the 1970s star wars movie. Say, how is Yoda.
Cannot imagine my life without Jung's exploration and explication of the interior world, and subsequent impact on so many disciplines and people! 🙏😎
I actually think that exactly that’s the reason why Jung was right. People living „external lives“ like Peterson calls it never get to the point of self Individuation in Jungs sense. That’s actually funny since it is related to today’s climate: In COVID-19 Lockdowns most people were somehow suffering. But the people most suffering on an interpersonal way were the external „carrier“ type guys who never thought of themselves in a sense a highly „creative“ self critical person would do about the often arbitrary structure of the own ego, morals and values.
They work since being pragmatic is the best thing they can do and it’s a comfortable ground state for them. But that’s as far from self Individuation as you can be.
Exactly. What I've observed, after watching a bunch of Peterson videos, is that he is extremely "outward" oriented which is just insane considering the fact that he is not a motivation guru or influencer, but a psychologist. His job isn't to tell a person to fix themselves from the outside-in, but to help fix themselves from the inside out. Until and unless you're sorted out on the inside, you can't be a properly sorted out person.
Even with the nihilistic tendencies question, his answer, while obviously was helpful, seemed too simple to me...imagine you start chasing relationships and job and all to deal with nihilistic patterns, and say you even start feeling better...but what if your friend betrays you, or your partner cheats on you, or you are fired...you'd crash face first into the darkness again. Because you didn't try to locate or fix the root cause, you just fixed up the branches.
Exactly.
@@Sunshine-yk2eg Inside - out and outside - in are two sides of the same coin. Building habits has an arguably bigger impact on your psyche consciously and subconsciously than thinking through the hypothetical trauma. If a person is so terrified by his own psyche often the only thing one can do to stabilize their life is start with building healthy ways of behaviour that shortly after lead to a new way of thinking since often people become so stuck, that they can't even imagine ever doing something productive.
What I want to say is: You can't have one without the other and that goes both ways
Persona or Ego indeed is a product of mind (as play of memory and imagination which is commonly called as thought process). Therefore sanity can not be evaluated by comparing personal with social which proves Jung is right and Peterson is stuck in his insane imagination...
@@Sunshine-yk2eg He makes the point that Jung viewed things from the perspective of an open introvert. Do you think Peterson is an introvert? I don't. I believe he is limited in the same way that Jung was. As an extrovert, his answer to the the question of fending off nihilism was spot on. These things are likely more important in developing personal satisfaction and meaning than focusing solely on self reflection.
If I had the choice of Peterson or Jung for a councillor I would take Jung. Jordan has done a great deal to bring Jung back in to the wider world and that's marvellous, but Jung has a capacity to engage the patient student with a road map to living that is vital because it is subtle.
In the case of Jordan Peterson, prepare to spend around 100 000 dollars... In the case of Jung, he usually managed to have "contributions" from his clients which hormally became his acolytes, int the million dollar range
@@r.e.campos8857
I never had a personal session with Jung or any Jungian counsellor but his books are a cheap gold mine of priceless practical grounded wisdom.
I owe him a huge debt of gratitude.
You couldn't have had a session with Jung, he died in 1961. His Red Book is not that cheap and when issued cost almost 150 US dollars.
Having been helped by reading him and recognizing it is more an indication of what a good person you are than Jung's person.
When reading the Red Book, beware because Jung actually deep down presents himself as a prophet revealing a new, unusual and revolutionary face to God, which is the contents of the red book and the black book quite contrary to the established idea of God.
@@r.e.campos8857
Dude, you are just talking shit.
I would choose both
peeling The Onion ..
So basically he takes jungs own criticism of himself and tries to make it sound like he figured it out. Jung himself said the first half of his life was introverted and then came the more extroverted part of his life where he participated in society, marriage, and all sorts of social things. Carl jung was able to look at his weakness and know how to fix it.
Introversion is not a weakness. Introversion just means your energy is recharged when one spends time alone vs. extroversion means one is recharged from time with others.
@@magee2161 by weakness i meant overdoing the introverted lifestyle. Even if you are naturally something you need to put some effort into the other direction. You dont have to be fully extroverted.
@@kernalfleak Ah I see, that makes sense
He said Jung thought with the mind of an introvert. Getting married and going to parties doesn't mean Jung gained the ability to think as an extrovert would.
@Richard Allen To add to your last sentence, JP very often gives credit to other people's ideas and discoveries, so OP just sounds a bit like a hater imo. He even gives credit to not just people but to papers they've written or studies he's read.
Although Jung may have never explicitly noted what JP talks about in terms of neuroticism (ie the tendency to be able to resist negative emotion), I believe that he implied it in his theraputic instructions:
"one can never be too sure that the weak state of the
patient’s conscious mind will prove equal to the subsequent assault of the
unconscious. In fact, one must go on supporting his conscious (or, as Freud
thinks, “repressive”) attitude until the patient can let the “repressed”
contents rise up spontaneously. Should there by any chance be a latent
psychosis which cannot be detected beforehand, this cautious procedure
may prevent the devastating invasion of the unconscious or at least catch it
in time."
Great quote.
Brilliant comment, thank you.
Wish I saw this much earlier in my life.
Psychopaths have very very low Neurotism, they dont experience negative emotion at all. And yet, psychopaths are worst kind of mentally ill.
The title is misleading. J.P. talk about the limitations of Jung Psychology, and not anything wrong at all!
Right. There's a reason psychology has so many fields. Analytic, neuro, developmental, cognitive/behavioral. The human psyche is multi-layered and there's no one size fits all. If you're open minded, creative and whimsical then just cleaning your room and getting a girlfriend isn't gonna cut it for long. Equally, telling an obsessive and ambitious workaholic to write down their dreams and feelings probably won't resonate that much.
I would say that in „Psychological Types” Jung recognises this, comparing his psychology to that of Adler’s and Freud’s, saying the differences in theories come from personal psychology.
Not just that.
I love how he says this all with a slightly discomfort expression on his face.
I really like JP's mannerisms 😀
He’s a very neurotic individual himself.
May just be his natural face
I think with the nihilism question he's repeated these obvious answers of how our behavioral patterns effect our psyche ad nauseum. Probably gets a bit old answering the same question lol.
I think he does it more so to boost the audience's attention, rather than having a blank face. And he is trying to critique... So he will appear more neurotic because of the latter. In this one.
The statement that the tendency to highly experience negative emotions seems lie at the heart of psychopathology I found interesting. I think of it more in terms of whole object relations. Perhaps he understands the former impacts the latter.
Dr. Peterson, may I ask about your saying (timestamp [03:15]) that the social & internal organizations mirror one another: how does it relate with the /compensating role of the unconscious/? I.e. what do you mean by "internal", conscious (ego-level) or unconscious (superego, persona, anim-a/us, ..., Self)? If the unconscious has a compensating function, does it correlate positively with the social compensation one seeks? Thanks.
Always enlightening listening to Jordan. I wish he would dedicate a session on how to get the most out of the Big Five Aspects Scale - which he frequently alludes to in his talks - for those of us who have taken the ‘assessment’ and want to get more utility from the data it provides.
Search for jobs and people that suit your temperament, at the same time work on your weaknesses. So if you are disagreeable, try and focus more on doing things for others. That's a good start, JP has a few videos on it.
@@Zoney06 Great! Thx.
He's not as emotionally stable to handle his own damn gift Carl Jung knew how to channel his gifts ito a positive light or experience. "Genius syndrome ".
Peace Pilgrim said that one can have a very common job or profession as one of their life's calling. I think that she felt that using the calling to be of service would make a big difference in finding inner peace. She also said that relationships such as in a family would be a great way to learn and grow together, learning about sharing, working to be of service with each other etc...
To the degree one is "integrated" with our sick society, which is accelerating towards near term extinction, is the extent to which one is mentally ill and unevolved spiritually. Jung was a highly evolved individual. Highly evolved people tend to be introverts and gravitate towards spirituality and psychology and the inner life in general. Jung was well aware of and wrote extensively about extroverts and their fascination with shallow, outer things. Jung mapped the 4 functions of consciousness meticulously and gave equal credence and attention to extroverts and sensates.
Jung was more an archaeologist of the psyche. He wanted to know how and why our common impulses came to be found within the vast array of human cultures and experiences.
“Something“ was there. And he chipped away at it, not through his own preconceived notion‘s, but with the very stories we continuously recycle amongst ourselves. What a fascinating approach it was.
I can’t imagine a world today not defined by his discovery of archetypes.
In this regard, Jung discovered more gears of the human experience than any other.
Between, the heroes journey, the shadow and archetypes, the breadth of vision tying it all together is astonishing.
He was a cultural relativist anti-realist . A "noble savage" follower of Rousseau. A "past worshipper."
Jung predicted the advent of totalitarianism when the conscious mind moves away from the self. Seems like thats whats happening right now.
@@alanvinayak9685 I would agree. Look at the surge of christian nationalism we are now witnessing in the U.S. We see countless conversations of these people expressing contradictions as though rational. It's clear they are out of touch with 'the self'. But we've seen this before. Fascism and nationalism, will always be with us. The author Norman Mailer once declared that totalitarian governments were more in alignment with the human condition because of its simplistic appeal- namely a parent or authority figure making things easier. "Yes... no... do this... don't do that!" Democracy really does take more effort and maturity of emotion as it requires concessions. And thus... knowing 'the self'.
Jung new exactly that if he didn’t socialize enough he would lose his mind, that’s why he would purposefully go out with people and spend time with his family event if it wasn’t what he would rather do, he still did it. It was probably in the book called dreams memories and reflections where he said this.
Correct. He mentioned in M,D,T that it was both his work with his patients and the time he dedicated to his family that kept him grounded in reality as he explored the unconscious
Every time Jordan Peterson quotes Jung, in the back of my mind I hear Jung muttering, " God defend me from my friends - my enemies I can deal with myself " !
So, is there any posibility that a person realises that is damaged from some experineces and that it will leave concquences how ever you deal with that situations or relations where you or someone else did the wrong thing. Is it possible that something that was negative leads you to some phases in your life and situations where you should be at that time to maybe help to someone and yourself to overcome similar situations in a better way. Should you judge yourself and try to be rational all the time? Who has the wright to claim that there's not something significant in every experience that happen in life. Even if it seems nihilistic sometimes we all have to except the fact that in some parts of our lives we did the best we could even if it wasn't enough to satisfy our moral norms from the past or other people expectations and needs. Is it possible that sometimes life puts us where we need to be beacuase we overseen our mistakes. Maybe there is something that is out of our knowledge. A force that will show us that we are not the only ones that will decide is the logical thing the best thing that we could learn or do in some situations. Maybe there are some people that are not psychopats but they only think and feel different because they didn't have the chance to develop "normal" relations and mindset that would give them a possibility to be perfectly engaged in their enviroment but they have a healthy mind and they are trying to find their role or pourpose in a field they can give their best what ever that is. Maybe.....there is God, i don't know.
Jung also wrote about geo politics, religions and quantum science. Great fun of what little I have read
Basically Jordan Peterson here is describing Jung's take on typology.
What he fails to say is that Jung doesn't really spoke that much about the hero's journey, though he infers it in his writings.
However Jung does say that different typologies have different roads. My take is that, seen or unsees, regardless of typologies, we all take the heroe's journey. If we see it we are fortunate, of we don's see it then we are doomed and life will do it for us. Then we call it fate.
As for Jung not talking about neuroticism as a personality trait I disagree as well because neuroticism is an aspect of both the extraverted and introverted with all their respective aspects (thinking, feeling, sensation, intuitive). An extraverted thinker can be just as neurotic as a introverted intuitive.
He wrote much about the nigredo state of alchemy from a psychological point of view and as being indespensable to change.
Jung was a psychiatrist himself and he noticed how people getting stuck in the nigredo phase can suffer devastating effects.
He also spoke of the dangers of allowing too much of the unconsious in when one is not ready.
That can destroy and shatter the ego to the point of schizophrenia.
Jung also said the following: "Thank God people have neurosis". That is the beginning of change, if done consciously.
Not very accurate but I see the point you’re trying to make, Good try!
that was a great question.
Psychologists and similar types always tend to drastically overcomplicate their concepts to the point they remain esoterically limited to consideration by scholastic minds only. (When in most cases the only thing they're doing is stating what should be obvious to most who posses even a shred of reflective ability.)
Regardless of how assumably Forward Thinking Jung was, in many respects he was still limited by the experiences, Events, and customs of his Time. ( All of which contributed to the shaping of his Personal World View.)
It's ok to be inspired by, and learn from nearly anyone..and some contribute more than others in that respect. But, nobody is right about everything, and Education doesn't end in the classroom for those genuinely trying to "individuate" as Jung termed it. (Though I prefer a more de-mystified version of that concept.)
I think where many err in that respect is when they Deify Their Idols and attempt to make nea
r Gods of Men.
yep, i can sum up jung w/out a phd or masters. go into plato's cave, your wildnerness, get feral with your grief, rescue your inner child, and gtfo and keep that child protected and raise her up to be the amazing person she is using mindfulness to invoke archetypes we all know and understand to some extent. that's all it is in a nutshell. now there are better and worse ways, but that's the gist of it.
@@opheliawild well stated ma'am. I think your inner child is quite safe and had grown into Her Greatness.
Good evening.
Desk
@@jeremyhennessee6604 You guys are both fools if you believe you can 'sum up' Jung. You can't compress Jung because given the way he writes, most of what he says is already in a compressed form. You unpack Jung, you don't summarize him. You're doing the opposite of reading him if you imagine that he can be compressed into some brief apothegm, let alone what ophelia wrote. Instead of reading him, you're reducing him, and I imagine you do that with most everything you read, judging by your attitude and your own statement to the effect that most psych. texts are "overcomplicated" and can be puked back out into a Twitter post. I don't think you could even explain what 'active imagination' or 'individuation' mean if I asked you to do so without GPT or google or something, that goes to both of you. Do you even know what an 'archetype' is? You think that's just about positive visualization and we all have automatic access to this world of archetypes?
An archetype is a vital form whereby the inner acts upon the outer and the outer acts upon the inner, a liminal reality between spirit and matter that normally unconsciously conditions the dialectical movement between the one and the other, between inner and outer, spirit and matter, self and other, (Hence it was through study of the alchemists and their symbolism of transformative processes that Jung really began to understand it) but can actually be made conscious through prolonged active imagination; (the fulfillment of alchemical gold, the 'philosopher's stone') where that dialectic normally works through simple enantiodromia, with mental states simply emerging from highly energized excitations and falling back into depleted moments of recovery, (this potential intensification or tension between excitation and depletion is what others like Klages call man's 'daemonic' potency) when it is made conscious one gains new agency over their own pathos: the archetypes fertilize and activate this patterning between the inner and outer worlds, which is what 'individuation' is. They exist both inside and out of man's head, which is why they are called collective by Jung; he doesn't mean they are a genetically ancestral reservoir we can plug back into like a hivemind. He calls them collective because they are objective realities that we discover, not invent, much like mathematics; they existed before humanity and will exist after humanity, and any alien conscious being that might exist out in the universe will 'discover' the same archetypal forms because they are simply the abstract forms whereby any dialectical mediation between the inner and outer can be maintained. The human being, without this process of individuation, is by default in a kind of self-servitude, a purely 'daemonic' being at the mercy of their own unconscious.
I'm really sorry to have to be blunt but it's just such arrogance, the worst kind of arrogance because it isn't even amusing, to sit there with the gall of saying you have the great genius to sum up someone like Jung in a paragraph- because his own writing? Nah he was just making it complicated to look smarter or something, and you know better than he did what he wanted to say, so you're going to say it for us. Bullshit. By the way, has the thought occurred to you that these theorists are not overcomplicating things for the fun of it, but that the subject in question really is itself that complicated? Because the subject is the latent and obscured machinery of the human mind actively working against the very analyst trying to decipher it. There's not any other more complicated subject.
I had this suspicion. Yung felt like the journey of a very specific psychology that includes me. I’m not in a position to say others are or aren’t on the heroes journey but it doesn’t look that way.
Never explained where Jung was wrong though hahah
Tum
is clickbait.
Thank you Docs, Jung and Peterson.
What JBP is referring to at the end is the theory of human needs; that we can fall into disrepair when at least one of our basic humans needs isn't meant, whether it be financial, physical, social, emotional, or mental.
Wow.
I am trying to figure out how mister Peterson propose to compatibilize the self imposed rules with the inner peace or the subconcious. the subconsious needs to go out and play and be messy right? This is a serious question, not just a comment. I thanks before hand to those who can guide me some light about this, since I am not specially brilliant.
So well said!
I think that JP, read into Jung too literally. Also the OCEAN model is useful for psychologist, but extremely static in nature and basically completely miss the temporal dimension. Jung was all about balance and finding the proper boundaries and increasing consciousness. I am not really fun of JPs static worldview. Even if you use the OCEAN model, you should strive to decrease your traits if they are too high and vice versa (the extremes are always bad). Other issues with JP is that he just talks about models and people - he is critiquing model and not the "vision" (I guess that JP does not really believe in the collective unconscious).
To add on i think even if you read Jung literally, you would be able to get a gist of what he is saying, i think jordan just skimmed through the books or relied too much on the modern academia knowlegde to interpret the books by Jung.
Additionally he has not read any of Jung's students works. Marie louise von franz is the greatest student of Jung and frankly give a much more simplified explanation of his work.
Shadow projections aside, I agree.
Because something has limitations does not mean it is wrong. The title to this video is disongenuous and does a great diservice to Dr Jung's work.
Q: How does one deal with Nihilism?
Jordan Peterson: Meet your needs and find fulfillment down other roads first, you may no longer feel the need to ask those questions
It's okay for the world to feel senseless and without meaning. Nihilism does not have to be something inherently negative for the individual. Berserk, a Japanese manga, offers a very Nihilistic, and also very hopeful perspective on finding purpose in a grim, senseless world.
I am no pro, but have loads of experience being neurotic. ;) I went to the grief instead of running from it. I find most are white-knuckling every way they can to avoid facing their jabberwocky of rage and grief. once we do, we learn to ride that mf'er. or at least, it begins to take some naps. you see grief leads to purging, feral like tragic grief processing, then comforting rains of acceptance, then we integrate the lesson and the soil is turned for rebirth and new growth.
Obvious bias for the 5 factor model. If I were looking for a profound misunderstanding of Jung I would say this is it.
Can you flesh this out? What do you think of the Myers Briggs model?
@@ewallt I use the Majors model (Majors PT Elements). Superior to Myers-Briggs statistically and in terms of getting a real-time read of the 8 Function-attitudes. 93% accuracy. Adheres to Jung’s thinking.
Can share more if desired.
Keep in mind Jung’s work was based on observation.
@@ctrchg or use the enneagram if you want to go a bit deeper
@@holycannoli64 I’ve been trying to find time to get into the E’gram. Great tool.
Is the 5 factor model wrong?
The limitations of Jung's thinking may actually be your limitations sir. I say that not as a contradictory reply but as an observation of the mirror analysis. There is a general understanding among us that there is duality in the world. However, that is just a concept our minds create due to individuation. The individual see him/herself as a separate entity from the society then the mind starts to ascertain that everything is fragmented and therefore a union with society is mandatory. While the community is necessary it is not essential in the practical sense. The community already acts unconsciously in the individual. When you become deeply aware of that and of all its complexities, you are the community, you are the world, within. For your life is essentially and psychologically the life of every other individual. Therefore there is no such real thing as loneliness which is one of the major sources of psychological suffering today.
Dr. Peterson, on your saying ([04:54]) Jung didn't notice the /Neuroticism/ dimension [of the Five-Traits personality model (FTPM)], please note that FTPM has been nowadays somehow superseded by the NERIS model, where there's no such /Neuroticism/ dimension. Seen from a math modelling perspective: one can use different base vectors such that the older base (FTPM) can be expressed as a linear combination of the new one. Such, I believe, was the case from going from Jung's original model, perhaps relayed by Myers-Briggs, to FTPM: a base change. As well as FTPM could be expressed in terms of NERIS as a base change. Ie. Jung did not align an entire dimension along /Neuroticism/ in his 4D model, but /N./ would have been a linear combination of Jung's dimensions. (Why linear? Let's start modelling from the simple.)
Plus, following your mentioning /N./ (see above), you mention /Neuroticism/ is the core feature at the base of all psychopathologies. Are you implying psychotic disorders (compulsion, schizophrenia, etc) have a core in /N./? I believe that's a wrong statement.
All respect to Dr. Peterson, but what I've read of Jung and seen materials of his, he is definitely NOT wrong. There might be some types of personalities or techniques that he has not pinpointed, but that is absolutely normal and expected, because as he said "We need more psychology and it should evolve", it's impossible one person to discover and document everything in a discipline. As he has quoted Bismarck in his famous interview - "God protect me from my friends, and my enemies I can deal myself alone".
As for the types of personalities, he has written that there are many ways of doing things and seeing the world around us, it all depends on the individual.
Carl Jung is the pinnacle of wisdom and intellect, not only in psychology but in understating of human being in general. As I'm going through his work, more and more I discovery how unappreciated and underrated he is. Such a treasure, glorious shining light, forever.
I want the same carpet in my room 😊
I don't think Peterson knows Jung well enough. Even highly social people will come to the limits of their conscious personality and then through crisis they might be able to get in touch with a higher authority that will take them further. Peterson even mentions this at 4:22 but then he leaves it at that. Another thing is that he doesn't seem to know much about psychological types instead he follows main stream Big 5.
If you go by Jung, it doesn’t mean we all are “creative religious mystics”, but we all have the ABILITY TO BE. And you can either be your Devine self or you can be silenced and suffocated by the collective unconscious/ the dark collective- the majority- the “elite”. And in order to become your Devine self, you must first be aware of your unconscious. You must realize that what you put out is what you get back. You must control your unconscious and be aware enough to keep your vibrations high and positive to affect those around you as well. “A smile is contagious”, “treat others how you want to be treated”, “one good deed can lead to others’ good deeds to others”. It’s not a coincidence that all of our “lessons” growing up are to put out positivity and you will receive the same in return.
Jung is highly visual, he is a design thinker. While other types of personality test can only see the surface, he went deeper thru his works. Super intelligent.
If you see a thumbnail like this, do yourself a favor and disregard everything the UA-camr is posting.
The title alone....Carl Jung and Jordan Peterson caught my attention. I have all books from both.
Same but I only understand 2 of them 🤣
By "have" do you mean "read", or just look good on the shelf?
@@mrchoon2010 have read. I have read these books
@@abcd-ur8fo that's awesome. There aren't many people like you in the world
Same here, (almost). I've read Maps of Meaning and 12 rules for life by JP, not sure yet whether I wanna dive into Beyond Order next.
I've read a couple of books by Jung when I was younger and recently reread them, currently finishing Man of Symbols. Still so fascinating but also overwhelming at times. 😳
I haven't dealt with the Red Book nor Aion yet,... I'm sure these two will be the most admirable ones.
Oh I'd love to meet people in real life who study such material as well!
It pains me to see how this encyclopedia of a man, so knowledgeable was so ill at this point in his life. I am so glad he recuperated well and got to see even more of him this past few years
Marcus Aurelius, the greatest emperor of all time and the founding pillar of Stoic philosophy, was an unrepentant life-long dopehead: opium, all day, every day. (His philosophy of non-reactivity, emotional distance, resignation, and letting things go makes a lot of sense when you know that about him, if you know anything about opioids. They are my own weakness.) Heroin before there was heroin. Everybody has a weakness, I was not surprised by JP's.
You serious? You think he’s behind Jung?
Bruv if you study psychology in university you’re 1000% going to study Jungian psychology, Mr Peters Son won’t be there.
I think we give people to much credit sometimes instead of ourselves and we make people famous for no apparent reason whilst we stay poor!
The heroes journey is also known as the left hand path.
This sounds like some shadow projection going on.
Exactly.
Exactly my take!
Wtf Uberboyo has an ad now haha
"They are normal not in what may be called the absolute sense of the word; they are normal only in relation to a profoundly abnormal society. Their perfect adjustment to that abnormal society is a measure of their mental sickness."
- Aldous Huxley
"Is society healthy, that an individual should return to it? Has not society itself helped to make the individual unhealthy? Of course, the unhealthy must be made healthy, that goes without saying; but why should the individual adjust himself to an unhealthy society? If he is healthy, he will not be a part of it. Without first questioning the health of society, what is the good of helping misfits to conform to society?"
- Jiddu Krishnamurti
It doesent matter how you describe it the mechanics of it doesent change!
Do you can be introverted and open?
A person needs to remember that whenever we look upon others or information our unconscious biases will determine what we deem as correct. Our brain will come up with any reasoning to either agree or disagree.
^THIS!
There is tragedy, happiness, opportunity, injustice, deprivation, ignorance, wisdom, social bonding, violence at many levels, despair and bliss in life…can anybody tell me (outside of fundamental survival and understanding) is life something that is ultimately…..Serious?
It’s strange that Jung wouldn’t formalize a concept of Neuroticism given his criticism of the doctrine of sin as the privation of good. Jung believed that evil was a phenomenon unto itself which would make me think he would put more emphasis on neuroticism in his personality mod.
its curious how after this amount of time, still a fair amount of people have taken on and still cite Jung's work in psychology and psychiatry. His organic first hand meeting of the mind is a contrast to many clinical psychology approaches which try to use theoretical logic and half-scientific or mathematical notions to describe and pin down the essence of the mind. The issue is that the mind of a person or creature is a living thing of nature, and not a simple machine (or wholly some analogy of a computer).
5:40 or try to question wether there could actually be meaning in your 'collective unconscious'.
Jung stayed religious because of that.
Jung is completing Nietzsche where Nietzsche was blind.
Nietzsche belonged in a mental institution along with Jung.
@@stephenwipf5224 Seems like you beat them to it tho 😂
@@aconfusedshoe6240 What do you know? your a confused shoe..........
@@stephenwipf5224 "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society."
@@Eminovici Where Nietzsche,is concerned it's also no measure of health to manipulate half of history to his lunatic idiosyncratic rantings either.
My main issue with his red book is that people don’t know what is in the head of Swiss look into craniotomy and how their skulls are different from ours
Why am I so incredible? That was the question I wanted you to ask yourself. Individuation is the lifelong endeavor. Blessings, good health and thank you for the insight.
Re “jobs” , read Job. What JP is describing are the various personalities types described by Steiner and Gurdjieff.
JP has coined his version of Jung's "types" (introvert, extrovert, etc). Interesting.
I just need your opinion on something that could possibly happen bad
Words get in the way watching tells the stories
Fum
Pretty accurate
I like this brand of looksmaxxing
One thing is the person as an individual with certain psychological characteristics, another thing are the theories and analyzes that he makes on certain psychological issues, if we do not understand the difference we are facing a fallacy, at hominen where the individual is judged, and not the argument presented.
this the sort of reaction you would get when you ask a friend about the negative qualities about an ex girlfriend which they were still in love with. ´ no no, she is not all bad......´ :P
Yes! Subtle snark. “Did the best he could but it wasn’t that good.”
“Man cannot live a meaningless life.” C.G. Jung Most of how you define life is based on the soil you were born on. It's that simple. Jung stressed to ask oneself if who I believe I am is how I am? Speak to the soul, know yourself, and recognize the ego, self, anima, and animus. Alchemy, from the spiritual point of view, plays a significant role. To study Jung, one must be drawn to it and find it on their own. Even Jung stressed it wasn't for everyone. No one person will ever have the power to please or interest everyone, and if that day ever comes, we're in for a considerable shite show..
I've noticed people who have experienced trauma, if guided, get better if they decide to study Jung. Not only his concepts but The Black Books and Alchemy.
Why did you never meet him?
Listening to you: no wonder you suffered depression. Feeling sorry for you and those alike. Before I heard two videos on the same subject of a couple young men whose attitude really impressed me.
There are some people in this world that comes with a mission .Jung was one of those. A chosen one. ✨.
Wow, what an amazing insight! You mean if you have a fulfilling romantic relationship, close friends and family and an active social life, a good diet and gainful employment and you’re not impoverished or sick or too injured to exercise and you don’t drink yourself into a stupor….If those conditions are met, then you won’t be prone to depression or nihilistic thoughts.
This guy is a FOR REALZ genius. I can’t believe he’s giving wisdom tid bits away for free when therapy costs like $200 / hr.
Very closed minded definition of creativity
agreed, the very best scientists are actually artists. michio kaku, carl sagan, einstein (he used active imagination to find e=mc2), copernicus...newton, list goes on and on. intuition --> discovery of things we cannot see physically, so we must feel them. just as anyone compensates for a loss of their senses by overcompensating in another. it's a gift. we all have it and can all get in touch with and develop it. including jordan here.
I agree
He just loves putting things according to his own intellect consciously, that's why he got the creativity wrong.
4:55 Neuroticism seems a bit redundant.
_”The capacity to experience negative emotion [...] seems to be the core feature of everything we regard as [...] psychological illness.”_
That seems pretty self-evident.
I do not know what you mean by redundant. Also, Where is your 'self-evident' line?
@@GRichter1996 _”the capacity to experience negative emotion seems to be the core feature of everything we regard as psychological illness”_
@@-John-Doe- Well It seems to me. It depends upon how an individual defines psychological illness. Please try to refrain from just ctrl c + v your responses it is very upsetting. I was asking a genuine question which at least deserves a genuine response don't you think?
Jung included a lot of untested ideas with his more certain knowledge. Thus, studying Jung is a minefield, because he often doesn't filter out that which might be false.
Tow
oh well i consider he did a great work whit it, of course there could be some fails, but let me tell you about his perspective on the theosophical society and how he made our way pretty clean in a lot of esoteric superstitious stuff there, even exposing the danger of the theosophical society trying to CREATE a "new religion" and the danger that it coul bring (all in a letter to SMITH, that you can read for example in chatgpt where i did at first. just ask about jung knowing the danger of the theosophical society trying to create a new religion, its pretty cool data.)
The man is a really non stoping rabbit hole when you discover his letters data.
Jung was NEVER wrong!
Jung would disagree.
Jung would certainly admit hes not without flaw, but Jordan Peterson has no footing to speak on the subject.
@@Alice-im2ek True
3:00 wait did he not do that by showing the relationships between myths over time and creating the collective unconscious? He spoke about introversion and extraversion and how both would need to go in the opposite direction of their general attitude in order to individuate. He brought Adler and Freud into with his Psychological Types. He used it as a way to present identity differentiation.
The Monomyth, can in fact be taken internal, but once you start digging deeper you get into he mess that I got into, where you tap into God, and all reality starts to warp. God being, you, your version, and all the individual components of your body, the Old Structures, start to wrestle you for control of your consciousness.
"Do you have a way of productively using your time outside of employment?"
Man, I hate this. It's no wonder people are clamoring for violent revolution. The alternative we're all doomed toward is more soul-crushing than a swift death by the sword could ever be.
We already spend the majority of our conscious hours working - the majority of us doing something we despise simply because we need it to survive. Needing to spend what little time we have remaining to ourselves doing something productive is crushing. If we're meant to pursue productive things of our own choosing with our time, then we shouldn't be spending such a majority of our total time doing unfulfilling work which does nothing to bring us closer to a better self.
If spending such a small fraction of our own time doing something wholly unproductive yet enjoyable leaves us still unfulfilled, then the system as we're compelled to live by it now is broken. We've witnessed and benefit from technological advancement beyond humanity's wildest dreams of times past, yet we're compelled to virtual slavery regardless.
Something needs to change, and cleaning our rooms isn't going to achieve that.
People actually ask it that way? That's such a strange way to ask that question. Sounds like a gotcha question. Productively using my time for what exactly?
Jordan does here at 6:46 , yeah.
Well stated, This is probably why Jung proposed firstly, individuation .Know thyself. What to do with that will become apparent.
When you intuit the "correct" (what one feels to be ) path , accumulate the capital to hunt it down and master it. ( psyxhology of the Daemon). Good comment btw ,best of fortune to ya.
It seems like you are attributing only negative emotions and stress to the pursuit of something productive outside of work, when, in reality, there is also great value in it for your fulfillment and happiness, if it is done well. Something productive outside of work does not have to make money for you, although that is an added bonus if you can. I would say that if you are absolutely miserable and working all the time, then you need to get another job and factor more time each day to the pursuit of the "productive" habit. If you are stuck on what to do, follow what brings beauty to your life and to others: writing, painting, playing and writing music, volunteering at non-profit organizations. Or, if you are more adventurous and enjoy living on the edge, then try your hand at entrepreneurship; start a company or an organization with a friend or family member. Go for it, and go as far as you can. Don't think you can't - believe in yourself and start with small goals that you can accomplish each day. Work your way up to bigger goals when you are confident you can meet your regular daily ones. Remember that any activity is particularly rewarding if you are able to do it with one or more people with whom you share common values, and who want your company. Lastly, if you are lonely, then the quality of the relationships in your life is low, and you should aim to fix that as soon as possible. It is absolutely vital for all people to be socially integrated so that they feel like they matter, otherwise their lives lose color, and they can experience anhedonia, the inability to experience pleasure. This is why depression is one of the worst illnesses, if not the worst. In a TedTalk which presented the factors affecting a person's longevity of life, the most important determinant was found to be social integration. This, in a phrase, is your value as a person in your community. To provide a concrete example, social integration is how you immerse yourself in the lives of others around you, so that people will immediately recognize you and reach out to you if you walk into a local coffee shop, for example. I think you can have many beautiful moments in your life, if you dedicate yourself to at least one of the axes provided above. When you feel unable to go on, remember that God is good, and God created us in his image to bring Heaven to Earth. I hope you have a wonderful adventure in this life, wherever it takes you. Good luck.
@@alborzdkia He shouldn't take your input for granted cause this is what he needs to do to be his best self.
agreed that a majority of men are social animals, and introverts are not very social, they tend to wander off and away from the mainstream. in addition, symbology is a form of magical mysticism that is favored by introvert philosophers and mystics. we know what we feel is caused by our environments, but when we feel guilt or shame, that is usually connected to a bad memory of having done something "wrong" and being punished by our parents or an authoritarian figure. our psyches are molded by both our environments and society--society usually claiming to be the highest authority above Mother Nature because she won't save you from the bullies in your life and often is a bully herself. so, we are left helpless and defenseless and wondering if now might be a good time to learn karate or to get a permit to carry a gun or mace or a Billy club, mace, and a gun if we decide becoming a police officer is the best way to feel safe. however, how a psychotherapist interprets our dreams can be equally interesting and thought-provoking, but people do tend to not have much time for theory overload. the simpler the theory the easier it will be for the patient to return to their daily routine. But Jung was a super-intellectual who loved to create elaborate theories and use complex symbology, which is the exact opposite of what an extrovert is interested in or has the time for. introverts prefer thoughts while extroverts prefer action. sometimes we are forced to become our own psychotherapists because we don't have any other available resources. and yes, some people don't believe in the supernatural either. so, psychoanalysis and psychotherapy and symbolism and mysticism can be difficult to prioritize. but let us not forget that Dr. Sigmund Freud also believed in hypnotism. which in itself is a very fascinating subject or object or entity. thankyou Dr. Peterson for your thought-provoking insights into Jungian analysis.
Jung was a visionary mind... But he is write, I experienced the journey, the synchronicity and all the process. There is a transcendental and spiritual transformation but is not an easy and comfortable process cause goes really really deep
Try the process before ! be able to speak about!
how
"hell is other people"
He is so much better when he talks about stuff like this, then when he is getting all political and anti-trans. He’s not the best psychologist or psychotherapist in the world by a very long margin, but he has a considerable platform and it is much more valuable when he uses it to give useful information that can really help people rather than stoking division and hatred.
Eye roll
Why should one be integrated in to society in order to be considered sane? Who decides what or which societies are sane?
The 5-factor OCEAN model is Freudian. Not a surprise to me they differ on neuroticism. I am a big fan.
Is JP saying some people don't need the transcendental function? Is JP turning into a Self-Help guru extraordinaire?
JP must read this" Neuroses like all illness are symptoms of maladjustment. Because of some obstacle- a constitutional weakness or defect, wrong education, bad experience, and unsuitable attitude etc.... ( C.W 13 par 473)..." Of course change the habits is much more easy way but that's not the depth of pyschology as Jung senses
Why not integrate all of those things and use creativity and logic as one? together.
am shocked.. actually agree a lot with JP here.
Difference in the ways of constructing a continuous epic for one's own life. Cool!
But I can't figure out mine. Maybe too smart or too conceptual, I only determine who I am by what I ponder upon and what I try to achieve just at the moment. Not really a continual form of self-conscious lol
Neuroticism was for Jung a part of undevelopped Feeling Function and he devoted much thought to this.
Isn't it still a story even if we don't recognize it as such?
3:07 This definitely strikes me as an intriguing assumption Jordan is making here. I think of that famous quote "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society". Why should we be integrated with this fallen system? Why should we play by these rules? I don't believe behaving like a robot "integrated" into the system is mentally healthy, unless you think automation is mental wellness. Some people likely do, to be honest.
People love to point out the flaws you could get 99 answers on s test right but everyone will scrutinize you for the one you got wrong stop the judgement just because someone’s thinking is different doesn’t mean you should judge them you should honor others differences and try to learn from any and everything you can from them
Lok
Imo intimate relationships are extremely difficult to get if you are in a nihilistic state