My take is: Lying is totally within the rules and you can't really be mad at it. However, it is a actually a low EV play in the long run if you intend to make deals in any future games. In the same way that I don't think people who do this should be slandered on a personal level, I believe it is totally acceptable to highlight these plays and players in the community to foster an environment where making deals actually makes sense. Think about it this way: If lying was actually accepted to be the best play in most of these types of situations, then quickly nobody would be making deals anymore. It wouldn't make sense. So if you feel like deals should exist in the game and that they are actually something enriching, you probably shouldn't break them. TLDR: Lying is fair game and should be expected, but also don't be surprised if people don't trust you in the future and even warn others about your style of play.
I agree. Personally, I'm not mad about him lying, but I don't want this to establish itself. I find it much weirder that he choses to apologize afterwards, instead of just accepting that he did something that's mostly frowned upon to get the win.
@@EisenherzMTGHow is it weirder that he apologized? It’s a normal function and if you listen to him it’s a backhanded apology because he has nothing to apologized for and just wants to continue through his win. Had he not had that potentially involuntary reaction, it could’ve led to hostilities.
Do you think that, by the community reacting the way it did, this will see a Streisand Effect? I think the format's credibility has been more eroded by the community reaction to this rather than the action itself tbh.
@@EisenherzMTGall these videos bullying and harassing him when he played within the rules is scummy. With regards to this, you’re the problem with the format.
Ngl, I wish you made a video about Kaos allowing an obvious cheater into top 16 and then DQ'ing them in top 16 for suspicious shuffling screwing someone out of a spot and invalidating online cedh once again. Seems much more important
I decided not to do a video on a cheating incident again, because I already covered that topic a few times and it's kind of exhausting. I don't think that's a situation we as players can learn anything from other that cheaters will cheat and the easier we make it for them the more they will do it. TOs obviously need to step up here and maybe players need to start boycotting events for a while.
@@EisenherzMTG yea fair I just feel like Kaos as a TO has consistently dropped the ball to an insane degree and id like them to address this. It kind of just got swept under the rug with this lying controversy going so viral. They let a guy who obviously cheated into top 16 and only DQed him because he continued to cheat.
Someone in the TO organization needs to put their foot down, make a statement and permanently ban people that are definitively caught cheating. If the different TO’s can do this across the format, we will see a sharp decline in these incidents and until then everyone that is less than honest feels like they have a get out of jail free card. You want to prevent cheating the best way possible? Make everyone understand that if they do, they will permanently lose this thing that they love.
I support this lying. no worse then the horrible politicking the top cEDH players make constantly. There needs to be a check to this where sometimes a bad deal you think is helping you can backfire. it will lower the amount of politicking in games which i think is a net positive.
I dont see how you can politic in cEDH. You are never more than a card away from winning? And on top of that, in a tournament? In a casual setting at a LGS I would argue its horrible. In a tournament setting playing nothing but 2 card combos? Saying "I don't have the win" seems fine to me
Honestly I think using social platforms to basically bully someone because they took a legal game action that the community (not even most of the community mind you, just some popular grinders and their followers) disagrees with is incredibly dangerous. I agree that the move was scummy but the way the community has gone about addressing it has been absolutely disgusting. There's a reason why the entire drama and the cedh community is being made fun of right now in groups like magic the circle jerking. I'd also like to point out that bullying / social pressure via social media is actually illegal according to tournament policy. All those clown emojis and what not aren't doing anyone any favors.
This is exactly what I was thinking too. There's no healthy way to police social interactions in games, so of course what the person did should remain legal and protected. Even if they didn't feign the "I didn't see the line thing." People should, in general, just be more careful when making deals than we currently are. When someone lies, just let their game credibility naturally erode. Clearly, public shaming is not the way to police stuff like that
It's a community - social interactions in a community are policed by the group - that's not a matter of opinion its a matter of reality. The questions is how much policing is ok and reasonable. This play was disgusting and some shame is warranted.
@@dreadgray78 Sure, nobody disagrees with you that it was a scummy move. What I, and likely the OP, are arguing is that there shouldn't be repercussions for this player outside of their loss of game credibility. The community backlash was far beyond that and the volatility of it further puts the format in a bad light. Next time, the other players should be less trusting when someone says "I need this Grand Abolisher before I interact." Listen to the whole VOD if you get a chance; the player who lied was scummy and the players they played against were way too gullible. Loss of game credibility isn't the same as public shaming and we collectively should try to be more reserved with the response.
Does winning matter? Do people do anything they can to win? As long as they dont cheat, deal with the fact that you placed your trust in a stranger and just move on. Keep your guard up and assume they want to win.
I'm not saying that lying is good or anything, and I agree with your overall point, that lying is legal but will in the end lower your trustworthiness. I think that this is something that most everyone understands and agrees with. I guess my stance is that lying is 100% ok, but if you lie, you have to be ready for the repercussions of that. My biggest issue from all of this is seeing people's responses to the scenario and saying/reacting in a way that I personally believe is either just near sighted or moral grand standing. I've seen people who, a few months ago, were saying that 'mana bullying' is just part of the game, but also saying that this type of lying isn't okay. I also believe that if you asked people "hey, there is a high likelihood that you can win hundreds of dollars and/or a card worth thousands of dollars, and in order to get that chance, you need to lie to this group of three other people, all of whom are also trying to win that prize," I guarantee that most of them would lie. I certainly would, and I'm not ashamed to admit that I would tell a lie (not break the rules) for a shot at potentially life changing money.
“Life changing money” isn’t a couple grand. Lying is lying whether it’s in a competition or not. The same person who would lie to win a competition would watch a $20 bill fall out of someone’s pocket, pick it up, and walk away….POS gonna POS I suppose..
@@rickinob no offense, but you're out of your mind if you don't think that winning a card priced at $4000 isn't life changing to a vast majority of people
I don't know LoL or LoL terminology, but here's my thought on never trusting opponents. (Maybe rewatch the video): Social games are pointless without social interaction and FFA formats lead to interdependency. So if you can NEVER trust your opponents you can never cut deals. There just has to be a (vague) baseline on what acceptable and whats not. It's a "problem" that occurs by trying to squeeze a social game into a competitive setting, but if we want to keep it going, we just have to find a solution and use these situation to assess what we as the players that make up the competitive scene want and what we don't want.
@@EisenherzMTG I think social interaction between enemies can still institute trust even if backstabbing exists. Deals don't just disappear entirely, I think it just adds more nuance? I think that lying when nobody else is lying is kind of a dick move, but I think if everybody instituted a play to win at all costs mindset, it wouldn't ruin the format. Players could deceive each other in game and if that's an element of the social contract, people could still be friends. I think it's a bit more nuanced than lying bad.
@@EisenherzMTG sure there are differences but both are social games where its beneficial to keep your hand hidden. also its just a game, i would not lie in real life like that but maybe in a game its my best play. you saying we should oust those players is cruel and salty imo. its not your friendly playgroup where it might hurt to get lied to, its a competition and you should not trust everything your opponents try to sell to you. it does not have to be toxic.
Opinion on lying aside, I dont like outright calling this guy a clown (Using the 🤡 emoji). That feels just as disrespectful, if not more than the lying.
@@Sajanis1 Yeah, definitely fine to disagree and have strong opinions or hot takes. Sadly, I’m on Twitter too and from what I could tell, opposing opinions aren’t generally treated the same..
Lol wut - the dude was acting like a clown by lying so blatantly , the clown emoji is used when a situation is so sad it's funny, which is basically what happened here.
I don’t like to lie in any situation. I personally enjoy the peace of trying to be honest as possible. That said, there are some people that take cEDH too seriously and try to politic all the time. I can hardly enjoy the game when I am playing with tryhards that are unable to stop asking questions and politicking every little advantage they can. I think at that point, lying to those people could be justified because if you tell the truth or remain quiet, they are getting an advantage over you. Maybe if we start lying more to those players, they would stop politicking so hard.
Politicking can be exhausting sometimes. That's why I always argue to be sparing with it. You don't want to get on peoples nerves. At the same time I think it's crucial in cEDH and it's a unique aspect of the format that defines it. I wouldn't want to completely dismiss it or react to it by lying, but I think we can use these kinds of situations to learn from and create a loose kind of code of conduct. Not a rule 0, but just a baseline of socially acceptable behavior.
@@EisenherzMTG Is really crucial though? For example, I am not an expert in poker, but I have never seeing a pro player ask an opponent for hidden information. The game values the ability of the players to infer the hidden information through the game actions and the board state of the players. They can bluff through game actions to attempt to distort the state awareness of their opponents. In cEDH if you insert politics, bluffing in politics means lying and in the end a lie is a lie. When we are continuously trying to downplay our own perceived treat level to other players we are “blatantly” lying. I we want to be honest, we should recognize this fact. Maybe politics don’t make the game better as some people may quickly asume. I personally would enjoy more bluffing through game actions than being force to lie to not lose in the politics game
Competition is just that. I see no difference in this vs a bluff or any misinformation conveyed. You play to win the game. This wasn't a casual pod, it was a cedh tourney and real money is on the line. Deception can win games, ever bluff you have a counter spell when you don't? Same same.
Not sure if this has been mentioned, but the video replay shown is cut and does not include the rest of the conversation and Cowboy Bob taking the time to find the line. It was a line that included multiple cards and needed the dockside to resolve with lots of treasures, so it was far from a routine line of play.
Frankly, that player gave due diligence. He told his opponents "You can believe me if y'all want to". And they chose to believe him. He laid out his opponent's options, and then they made a decision. Assuming there was something that could be done by his opponents, this was a misplay on their parts. Don't hate the player, hate the game.
I disagree. This is not a way the most successful and reputable cEDH players play the game. It is a choice he made, but the way he did it was deceitful and dishonest. The biggest issue here being that not only does he "lie" or "bluff", but he pretends to be sorry about if afterwards. So either do it and stand by your decision to "lie" / "bluff" or don't do it at all. If he went "Of course I was going for the win." afterwards it would have certainly be interpreted in a different way, but he didn't, which makes him look more like a liar than a bluffer.
I don't think him being sorry makes it worse. If someone steals 500$ and says "I am sorry, but I really wanted the money" - that's preferable to me than the thief saying "ofc I was gonna steal your money, who keeps that much paper cash anyways, idiot!"
Basically the latter case bashes you for being dumb enough to trust people to be upright and honest. I personally wouldn't feel better if the liar had no empathy and wouldn't acknowledge the play was mean.
@@EisenherzMTG there is an "unsportsmanlike conduct" portion in the MTR. I believe that rule should be expanded to punish plays like this, in order to preserve the format's identity. That said, I don't think anyone should persecute players like this until that addendum is made. Again, the rules of the game are what allowed this to happen unpunished.
I think the key is to base all politics on agreements, and not implicit agreements, explicit agreements. I don't think you should trust someone who's going to say 'Hey, I'm not going to win.' You should say, ok you're saying you won't win. If I do X, then you agree you won't attempt to win on your turn, no matter what. And then affirmatively agree to that deal. Otherwise bluffing or deception could be reasonable, tho totally outright lying is yucky...
I didn't fully grasp the context. Did he pushed through a spell that fetched Breach directly into play, saying he was going to fetch a random creature instead to stop someone else?
Politics are not game mechanics. Play dumb games win stupid prizes. Politicking is not free of risk, and this is just facing the consequences of playing that lottery.
@@henkdachief dumb take. Just bcs something is not written in the rules it doesnt mean its not a game mechanic. This guy will unlikely see a win in the future in that context. I wonder if he'll be able to get past 2 rounds in future tournaments.
thing is everyone hides the guys name in the clips and all the guy has to do is change his spelltable name if that. Really this guy is getting no real long term hate bc nobody knows who it is. So pretty much all im saying is theres no repercussions for him lying.
There's also no repercussions for players that don't really play in events that often or care about social credit or the opinions of the community. Mr. Joe Rando is more likely to get away with lying his way to top cut vs someone like Comedian who has a rep and is an active member of the community. I don't think people realize this. That extra EV is irrelevant if you only play maybe 2-3 events a year. At that point you have to say to yourself, hey maybe this guy who isn't famous in the cedh community is lying when he says he can't win this turn.
a ton of tournament players already know his username and it actually made huge waves so he will be recognized unless he changes his username, camera setup and strong accent...
@@EisenherzMTG Many may recognize him from what I assume is Twitter, but there's a significant number of people not on that platform who might be unfamiliar with him (I haven't come across any mentions on Reddit with a specific username or identifier, only a discussion about the clip). Additionally, recalling accents, particularly in person, can be challenging. However, a simple adjustment of the playmate and camera angle is all he needs to improve and 99% will be non the wiser. It's not as if people are meticulously memorizing his mannerisms. Even if some are, it's likely to be a small minority, and they'll likely forget over time. So, if the your argument against lying is that people will discover the truth and than not trust them, why keep his username or identifier hidden, potentially exposing more people to be cautious when playing with said player? As someone deeply involved in cEDH and staying informed about the community beyond Twitter, I find it essential to mention the person as open as possible.
I was asked by a player last Friday if my deck has recursion and I said no so he chose to discard a card which could exile my graveyard. Then on my turn I drew Sun Titan, the one card in my deck that gets things back from the graveyard which I had forgotten about. I was afraid to play it because I had just said my deck has no recursion. It easily looked like I could have had Sun Titan in my hand when he asked and lied because I wanted to make use of it. It sounds like this guy had all the necessary cards in his hand though when he said he didn’t
you didnt play it because of your conversation before? brother.. why would that player even ask you something like that? why did you answer? dont help your opponents if anything throw them off!
@@henkdachief No, I played it. I had nothing better to do. It was just awkward because it was my very next draw after saying I had no recursion. He asked because he had to draw and discard and wanted to know if his graveyard exile card would be useful or if he should dump it. Technically I had no obligation to answer but it’s just better to provide information in casual games or I would look like I’m taking it way too seriously. He did discard it but in retrospect he definitely should have used it on me because Sun Titan helped me win very quickly by getting back Skyclave Apparition and I was able to blink it several times each turn.
@@EisenherzMTG alright then, lemme dismantle this entire video to make sure I understood "the the [sic] actual critique" 1- You're assuming that the Kraum/Tymna player lied. It is entirely possible that they *genuinely* didn't see a winning line when asked if they had a way to win - hence why they're apologizing afterwards. For the sake of argument, I'm going to argue my next points with the assumption that he really did lie. 2- "It is not an illegal game action" => the only point that matters btw. 3- EDH / cEDH being social formats doesn't mean you need to be honest with your playgroup through and through. There are advantages to making allies and holding up your deals, just like there are advantages to misleading people or breaking a pact - which you acknowledged yourself. 4- If you're basing your "trust" of someone in a game of EDH / cEDH purely on their words, you're a sucker. There should be more to you allying yourself to one player than the promise said player is making. You can negotiate for an immediate proof of good faith. You can try and deduce information to confirm your bias in favor of or against certain players. If I'm playing Mono-Red and I go "I can deal with that Underworld Breach if you do a thing for me", do you just take my word for it, or do you stop for a second and think "wait, how the fuck does Mono-Red deal with Enchantments?" 5- Likewise, someone might have a reputation for suckering out of a few deals or lying every now and then, but that doesn't mean that you should never ally to them - just that you should be cautious. You can still make deals and have politics in an environment where trust isn't a binary. I personally believe it makes politics even more interesting - sure, the Raffine player offering me a deal could help me a bunch, but I should also be ready for them trying to cheese me, and they should probably be ready for me trying to cheese them. 6- Is winning... NOT the main point of a game in a cEDH tournament? Inb4 "we should all play to have fun". 7- I think tantrums like these and reactions of "smh unsportsmanlike behavior" are what turn people away from cEDH rather than the opposite. The idea that you'll be looked down upon if you try to win in a manner that your pod or the community at large will judge as "unsportsmanlike" is pretty discouraging. What if the community one day decides that Thoracle is too powerful and that using it makes you a terrible person? You do realize that this is pretty equivalent to some of the worst Rule 0 EDH discussions out there, right? EDIT: also I should add that someone using their platform to criticize the Kraum/Tymna player and incite others to dogpile on them for lying is super SUPER shitty - not talking about you here, even though I think you're complicit, but talking about the OG who posted the vid on Twitter to whine. tl;dr lying is part of politics. Just like you shouldn't trust internet links that promise free money, you probably shouldn't 100% trust your allies in a game of cEDH - after all, they didn't build their deck to make you win, they built their deck to try and get a win of their own.
@@mekklord You hit the nail on the head. Does it suck that he lost because the guy lied about going for the win? Yea kinda sucks. But its a top cut in a competitive EDH tournament with prizes on the line. The person who kept calling out the guy who won is just being a big baby. In a casual setting where you're not playing for rankings or prizes sure the lying is not cool. But in a tournament setting, you should never assume your opponent is NOT going for the win. That is the whole goal of the game at that point. To win the tourney.
Its a card game man, bluffing is the name of the game. Why don't people play with their hands face up so that everyone gets the most optimal plays worked out and the game becomes all luck instead of skill?
See...that's not bluffing. If he was bluffing, he wouldn't have been sorry afterwards. He just lied, which made him feel bad about his game action and that's why he felt the need to apologize multiple times. Politicking in this game is a skill just as brewing and piloting. I'm not saying that he shouldn't have tried to win there or deflected attention away from himself to get a window of opportunity. It's the way he did and the way he behaved afterwards. There needs to be a balance of theoretically optimal actions and socially acceptable behavior. No successful and reputable cEDH player would have done this...at least not the way he did it.
1- love your Urza lists! 2- I don't understand what the fuss is about here- even after listening to your video. In tournament 1v1 magic, we don't trust our opponents. Why is there now an expectation of that in a tournament-Cedh setting?
Thanks 🙏 Because in cEDH it's a matter of nuance and sportsmanship. If you make a deal or promise to do XYZ it is usually expected of you to hold up your side of the deal. thats why politicking is so tricky and communicating / wording is so important. It's not being salty about an opponent seizing the opportunity to win, it's about sportsmanship and the implications this has for the future of the format and competitive scene. If he worded his intend differently or at the very least not pretend to be sorry about what he did, this would have come across very differently. However by promising one thing repeatedly, then winning and finally apologizing for winning, he showed that he intentionally acted in a way that is frowned upon, which although is legal still is unsportsmanlike. Just like punching your opponent in the face when you'd usually touch gloves. It's legal, but unsportsmanlike and shouldn't establish itself as a common way to act in the competitive setting. I'm honestly a bit surprised by how many people don't seem to grasp that concept. Every competitive sport has written and unwritten rules. In cEDH blatantly lying is mostly frowned upon, just as it is frowned upon to attack when touching gloves in boxing, just as it is frowned upon to score a goal when an opponent is injured on the field during a soccer match, etc. etc.
Correct. There has been tons of bluffs in many card games and it's part of why people don't share their hands. Duh. You don't have to politic or tell anyone anything in this game especially competitive. Your supposed to gain leverage anytime you can to win lol. Looks like it was a win or lose situation for this guy and he played the cards in his hand to win any people are crying about it.
I truely don't understand the context here, player 2 (the player who wins) searches library and says "I'm not winning," but what was the conversation before resolution? Shouldnt the table have a conversation before resolution for the tutor? Did player 2 use the "I'm not winning" as justification to search and the table believed player 2? If I was player 2 and I was searching my library if I don't want to communicate what I'm finding that should be fair, obviously its antisocial but finding a clean open path to winning is part of the game. So would this behavior be ok if player 2 didn't say "I'm not winning"? Also before the argument is made, if someone was going off and you decided to jam the win and get stuffed then ofc this is a bad EV play as you have now given the game to the person threatening the win. But overall if this is truly a difference between the player saying "I'm not winning" instead of "I wouldn't like to disclose what I'm searching for" I think this is getting wildly overblown. I think at this point I need to watch the whole game and conversation as I do not know if there was pressure from the table or not to disclose. One last point, I am not saying everytime you search you should just keep your head down and say "I am not gonna tell the table what I'm getting" this is a terrible way to play and you will lose more games then win, almost assuredly, but there should be times where that response is justified, going for the win when you think its open is one of those times. Idk I'll watch the game and become more informed I imagine.
So one player had like 15 cards in hand and was very obviously ready to win. Player 2 then presented some very threatening game actions and multiple times stated things like "I'm not winning, I'm just trying to get interaction to stop him (referring to the player with 15ish cards in hand). He did this so often and that the other players decided not to interact with him in an effort to stop the other player (15 cards guy) from winning. Yet, instead of looking for interaction, P2 just presented his own win. There was for sure some naivety involved by the other two players, but the big mistake player 2 made here is not that he went for the win, but how he "politicked" to get there. To put it simply, he should have used his words more carefully and he should probably not have backpaddled after breaking the deal. He first showed a lack of integrity and later a lack of backbone. If he were to just use his words more carefully to open up that window for him and afterwards stand firm by his decision, most people wouldn't have batted an eye. By repeatedly apologizing and pretending to no have seen the line etc. etc. he makes himself look much more dishonest and deceitful. It doesn't convey a high level of politicking skill, but more a lack of accountability for taking a frowned upon way to victory. That's why it is interpreted in such a negative way. My whole point is that we are trying to squeeze a social game into a competitive setting and this leads to situations where some actions although in theory more optimal lead to a social backlash. We need to find a common ground as a community on what is acceptable and what isn't. Most people I talked to agree that this isn't, but the line is obviously not clear and that's why we need to look into these situations and their consequences. To learn from them and grow with them.
@@EisenherzMTG yes this is the context that was missing and that makes more sense, he definitely should have been more careful with his words, hopefully a learning experience for player 2. Twitter gave no context at all. I'm honestly super surprised you jam on a table where a player has 15 cards and others feinted interaction. Thank you for the full context not just the Twitter context
@@EisenherzMTG It is a competitive game where you can't take people's words at face value necessarily. Just like you may play around your opponent having enough untapped islands for a counterspell, you should take all the possibilities into effect. Although many people say "dishonesty once makes people less likely to trust you next time", that doesn't mean that you NEED to be honest, and the fact that nobody is obligated to follow the rules besides their own "honor" adds tension and complexity to the game. Magic players prefer to feel in control of the situation. To feel that way when you aren't doesn't mean your opponent cheated, it means you did bad threat assessment. He shouldn't have apologized or felt bad for winning the game in a competitive environment.
@@EisenherzMTG we still don't know the actual line of play. Did he fetch Grand Abolisher directly into play, then presented the win? Why the guy with 15 cards in hand didn't interacted either? What's the difference for the other two to loose to one or the other? In a previous video, you say you drew a game by convincing the table you were able to kingmake either of two people, when in truth one of them was going to lose anyway. You knew that, but you kept it hidden to get the draw. Why was that correct and this isn't?
Did he tutor for the sevinne's?.. did no one ask about what was in his graveyard(which is public knowledge)? There were a lot of bkue players there did they blow their interaction with the others besides Bob?
So it was a little bit more complicated: Another player had like 15 cards in hand and was obviously about to win the game, so they basically allied to accumulate interaction and stop that player from winning. At least that's what the "liar" promised to do. He surprisingly led his turn with a Silence, which made everyone alert. They wanted to stop him right then and there - fearing that he would go for a win - but he repeatedly promised that he was only going to use the Silence to find more interaction against the other player (15 cards in hand guy) and not have him be stopped dead in his tracks. He promised multiple times to only find interaction to stop the other player and eventually they believed him (not like they weren't skeptical). He then took the chance as Silence resolved to go for the win. Later stating that he was sorry, didn't see the line previously yadiya and took the chance to go for the win although he wasn't planning on doing that. Which was a lie - we know that for a fact now - and is also pretty unsportsmanlike and shows a lack of integrity. He lied intentionally and fake-apologized and looked for excuses for his unsportsmanlike behavior so that he can make Top4 in a tournament that will give him points for the Invitationals later this year.
The tldr is he repeatedly said he was casting a tutor to get something to stop another player winning, and that he couldn't win off the tutor, then played underworld breach to immediately win, then apologized for being a scumbag and then said good game.
A fient or bluff is much different then and elbow to the face. If the social agreement is we are boxing. If the social agreements is by any means. Not only does it completely destroy the verbal aspect of a 4 player game but it further propagates the cheating culture.
@@EisenherzMTG @EisenherzMTG I already knew that. But you're the one that chose to make a video attacking someone playing legally. Calling them a clown, calling gameplay bs. Nobody ever has a duty to reveal information to you unless an effect states that you must. You're the issue here. Not to mention you actively made the choice to attack him instead of the actual cheater a full week in advance. Using social media to bully people doing nothing wrong is still wild.
Actually not. This is something that rarely happens in cEDH tournaments. Politicking is more nuanced than blatantly lying. The questions remains: Do we want this kind of behavior to establish itself in the community. Most people absolutely don't. Hence the negative feedback. We've had a similar case with mana / priority bullying last year. It lead to a debate and people became much more aware of it and now it's much less of an issue. This is another one of those moment for the cEDH community to learn and grow from. We make the community. We shape the community.
@@EisenherzMTGIf I have the win in my turn and one opponent tries to get an advantage by asking me if I am going to win what should I do? If I tell the truth I will get my boardstate blown up and my opponents will keep all their interactions for my turn. Maybe the problem is that some people try to politic too much and that is also lack of sportmanship.
this comment is sick, wanting your preferences forced on other because you are an "influencer" or a community leader? 100% scumbag behaviour, thats why losers should not have power fr we see this stuff too in speedruninng where commitees ban players for all kinds of stuff they dont agree with eventho they dont break any rule. having a central "cedh community" is super dangerous @@EisenherzMTG
is this guy a liar or is he just bad at bluffing and blundered the social aspect of the game? deception and information withholding is part of the game, that's why you play with your hand hidden. but you also have to weigh the loss of trust from other competitors in future games
Yeah...politicking is very nuanced. If a player doesn't have the skill (yet) to do it in a way that doesn't lead to a massive backlash maybe they shouldn't fall back on it in these kinds of situations. We all move on the verge of lying when deflecting attention away from us, pretending not to be a major threat etc. etc., but in this case it is so obvious and so poorly done that it leaves an extremely bad aftertaste. Add the fact that the player pretends to not have seen the line and pretends to be sorry afterwards. It leads to cognitive dissonance that makes him appear not only as a liar, but also as spineless. As harsh as it might seem. If he at the very least would have stand by his decision, it would have certainly been interpreted a little different.
yea i totally agree that this player played the situation quite poorly - i think a more experience politicker could have navigated the same situation and not get the same result @@EisenherzMTG
This is the first time I've seen the full clip. Guy goes from talking himself down to winning outright in 15 seconds flat, no way that's legit. Totally with you here, it's not the done thing. I've seen a lot of casuals weigh in to say it's just salt, but if Kai used his interaction to get the table a win attempt just to be screwed by a lie that's utter garbage.
agree 100% with this creators ideals. commander is fun and social based. making it competitive was a bad idea in the first place. but since it is then the base aspects of the entire format should still be the most important
Unfortunately, I think this is what will kill cEDH. Lying and cheating will only get worse the bigger these tournaments get. Unfortunately, I can see why random nobodies can find the political environment to be kind of dumb for a lack of a better word. Everyone is there to win, and most people will result into using wording that will give them the most flexibility to go for any advantage. Near the end of my time playing cEDH, I gave up on the word play and just became brutally honest in everything I did and said.
I think the crux of the problem is people don't have the full context from just the clip Kai posted. There are nuances that were lost on the average viewer for what the situation really was and what Kai's actual intentions were when posting the clip. Kai's and others ONLY option for curbing the number of individuals acting this way in pods is to spread awareness and damage the rep of that person. Hope the community can move forward and grow from this and that clownboy bob never touches a top table again. 😂
Basically why I made the video. I see this as an opportunity to make people aware of these situations and actively think about what they want and don't want at a tournament table. Cowboy Bob is probably not a bad person or anything, but what he did was just pretty unsportsmanlike and it needs to be made public so it doesn't establish itself.
With the flux of popularity has come a flux of cheaters and liars. The social aspect of cEDH is extremely unhealthy at the moment. If any pilot feels that they need to lie to win. They must not be very good at piloting. Social contracts exist in this format because it is a social format. Break these contracts and we no longer have a format. Its that simple. I dont care the setting or the games "importance". break the contract. Break the game.
I think it should be illegal, same as insulting other players. For me is a lack of respect and should be treated like this. Of course it wont be Black or write allways, there are a lot of rules in magic that can be readed differently according with the intention of the players or the nature of the situation.
@@LaCasadelComandante its super disrespectful you are basically bullying the player you are asking, fishing for hidden info while banking on them making a mistake by telling you. its okay to lie in magic rules: not to lie about a boardstate but to lie about hidden info. "did you make a land drop?" cant lie about that, "do you have a removal / the kill?" def can lie about that and if somebody even asks i would lie.
@@henkdachief i respect your point of view but I don't agree with you. If somebody ask you about hidden info, you can allways ask saying"probanly" or "Who knows". You are not forced to answer. But lying creates a bad enviroment and is disrespectful. For me it should be added to the list of "special rules" of cEDH like the kingmaking or the spite plays
@@LaCasadelComandante 1. its not disrespectful, its part of the game! and thats for a reason! whats not part of the game is getting access to hidden info. 2. you should not be forced to either be truthful or say "who knows" when asked a question, you getting aksed that question already puts pressure on you and people try to get a read by your answer regardless. if you make the wrong answer illegal asking people constantly what they have would get super valueble and in fact there are players you do play like that already, asking every player multiple times in a turncycle and its the worst. i think nobody is angry when somebody lies in amogus so its basically just a mindset thing.
My take is: Lying is totally within the rules and you can't really be mad at it. However, it is a actually a low EV play in the long run if you intend to make deals in any future games. In the same way that I don't think people who do this should be slandered on a personal level, I believe it is totally acceptable to highlight these plays and players in the community to foster an environment where making deals actually makes sense. Think about it this way: If lying was actually accepted to be the best play in most of these types of situations, then quickly nobody would be making deals anymore. It wouldn't make sense. So if you feel like deals should exist in the game and that they are actually something enriching, you probably shouldn't break them.
TLDR: Lying is fair game and should be expected, but also don't be surprised if people don't trust you in the future and even warn others about your style of play.
I agree. Personally, I'm not mad about him lying, but I don't want this to establish itself. I find it much weirder that he choses to apologize afterwards, instead of just accepting that he did something that's mostly frowned upon to get the win.
@@EisenherzMTGHow is it weirder that he apologized? It’s a normal function and if you listen to him it’s a backhanded apology because he has nothing to apologized for and just wants to continue through his win. Had he not had that potentially involuntary reaction, it could’ve led to hostilities.
Do you think that, by the community reacting the way it did, this will see a Streisand Effect? I think the format's credibility has been more eroded by the community reaction to this rather than the action itself tbh.
@@EisenherzMTGall these videos bullying and harassing him when he played within the rules is scummy. With regards to this, you’re the problem with the format.
Ngl, I wish you made a video about Kaos allowing an obvious cheater into top 16 and then DQ'ing them in top 16 for suspicious shuffling screwing someone out of a spot and invalidating online cedh once again. Seems much more important
I decided not to do a video on a cheating incident again, because I already covered that topic a few times and it's kind of exhausting.
I don't think that's a situation we as players can learn anything from other that cheaters will cheat and the easier we make it for them the more they will do it.
TOs obviously need to step up here and maybe players need to start boycotting events for a while.
@@EisenherzMTG yea fair I just feel like Kaos as a TO has consistently dropped the ball to an insane degree and id like them to address this. It kind of just got swept under the rug with this lying controversy going so viral. They let a guy who obviously cheated into top 16 and only DQed him because he continued to cheat.
@@WhoTFareyou2 I'll definitely think about it! I just don't want it to be a video to shame another cheater so I have to put more thought into it. ✌
Someone in the TO organization needs to put their foot down, make a statement and permanently ban people that are definitively caught cheating. If the different TO’s can do this across the format, we will see a sharp decline in these incidents and until then everyone that is less than honest feels like they have a get out of jail free card. You want to prevent cheating the best way possible? Make everyone understand that if they do, they will permanently lose this thing that they love.
Made the video now :D
I support this lying. no worse then the horrible politicking the top cEDH players make constantly. There needs to be a check to this where sometimes a bad deal you think is helping you can backfire. it will lower the amount of politicking in games which i think is a net positive.
I dont see how you can politic in cEDH. You are never more than a card away from winning? And on top of that, in a tournament? In a casual setting at a LGS I would argue its horrible. In a tournament setting playing nothing but 2 card combos? Saying "I don't have the win" seems fine to me
Honestly I think using social platforms to basically bully someone because they took a legal game action that the community (not even most of the community mind you, just some popular grinders and their followers) disagrees with is incredibly dangerous.
I agree that the move was scummy but the way the community has gone about addressing it has been absolutely disgusting.
There's a reason why the entire drama and the cedh community is being made fun of right now in groups like magic the circle jerking.
I'd also like to point out that bullying / social pressure via social media is actually illegal according to tournament policy. All those clown emojis and what not aren't doing anyone any favors.
This is exactly what I was thinking too. There's no healthy way to police social interactions in games, so of course what the person did should remain legal and protected. Even if they didn't feign the "I didn't see the line thing." People should, in general, just be more careful when making deals than we currently are. When someone lies, just let their game credibility naturally erode. Clearly, public shaming is not the way to police stuff like that
Dude you hit it on the head and spot on
It's a community - social interactions in a community are policed by the group - that's not a matter of opinion its a matter of reality. The questions is how much policing is ok and reasonable. This play was disgusting and some shame is warranted.
@@dreadgray78 Sure, nobody disagrees with you that it was a scummy move. What I, and likely the OP, are arguing is that there shouldn't be repercussions for this player outside of their loss of game credibility. The community backlash was far beyond that and the volatility of it further puts the format in a bad light.
Next time, the other players should be less trusting when someone says "I need this Grand Abolisher before I interact." Listen to the whole VOD if you get a chance; the player who lied was scummy and the players they played against were way too gullible. Loss of game credibility isn't the same as public shaming and we collectively should try to be more reserved with the response.
Does winning matter? Do people do anything they can to win? As long as they dont cheat, deal with the fact that you placed your trust in a stranger and just move on. Keep your guard up and assume they want to win.
Definitely ok to lie in competitive format
I'm not saying that lying is good or anything, and I agree with your overall point, that lying is legal but will in the end lower your trustworthiness. I think that this is something that most everyone understands and agrees with. I guess my stance is that lying is 100% ok, but if you lie, you have to be ready for the repercussions of that. My biggest issue from all of this is seeing people's responses to the scenario and saying/reacting in a way that I personally believe is either just near sighted or moral grand standing. I've seen people who, a few months ago, were saying that 'mana bullying' is just part of the game, but also saying that this type of lying isn't okay. I also believe that if you asked people "hey, there is a high likelihood that you can win hundreds of dollars and/or a card worth thousands of dollars, and in order to get that chance, you need to lie to this group of three other people, all of whom are also trying to win that prize," I guarantee that most of them would lie. I certainly would, and I'm not ashamed to admit that I would tell a lie (not break the rules) for a shot at potentially life changing money.
“Life changing money” isn’t a couple grand. Lying is lying whether it’s in a competition or not. The same person who would lie to win a competition would watch a $20 bill fall out of someone’s pocket, pick it up, and walk away….POS gonna POS I suppose..
@@rickinob no offense, but you're out of your mind if you don't think that winning a card priced at $4000 isn't life changing to a vast majority of people
Why would you ever trust your opponents? Why play in a league of legends game and one of your opponents says "jungle top"
Why believe them?
I don't know LoL or LoL terminology, but here's my thought on never trusting opponents. (Maybe rewatch the video):
Social games are pointless without social interaction and FFA formats lead to interdependency. So if you can NEVER trust your opponents you can never cut deals. There just has to be a (vague) baseline on what acceptable and whats not. It's a "problem" that occurs by trying to squeeze a social game into a competitive setting, but if we want to keep it going, we just have to find a solution and use these situation to assess what we as the players that make up the competitive scene want and what we don't want.
@@EisenherzMTG I think social interaction between enemies can still institute trust even if backstabbing exists. Deals don't just disappear entirely, I think it just adds more nuance?
I think that lying when nobody else is lying is kind of a dick move, but I think if everybody instituted a play to win at all costs mindset, it wouldn't ruin the format.
Players could deceive each other in game and if that's an element of the social contract, people could still be friends.
I think it's a bit more nuanced than lying bad.
@@EisenherzMTG cut deals in cedh?`sure bro thats even more scummy than lying! :D
Don't bring the toxicity of LoL in cEDH, we definitely don't need it.
why is it not okay to lie? its okay to lie in poker..
Poker and EDH are fundamentally different games though.
@@EisenherzMTG sure there are differences but both are social games where its beneficial to keep your hand hidden. also its just a game, i would not lie in real life like that but maybe in a game its my best play. you saying we should oust those players is cruel and salty imo. its not your friendly playgroup where it might hurt to get lied to, its a competition and you should not trust everything your opponents try to sell to you. it does not have to be toxic.
Fundamentally different games, but one of those differences isn't the social or information aspects.
Opinion on lying aside, I dont like outright calling this guy a clown (Using the 🤡 emoji). That feels just as disrespectful, if not more than the lying.
Totally agree. This whole situation has helped me narrow down the number of cEDH “content creators” I want on my feed
@mustardmushroom4390 I love this guy's content and am going to stay subbed and watch his videos. I just disagree with this one thing 🤷♂️
@@Sajanis1 Yeah, definitely fine to disagree and have strong opinions or hot takes. Sadly, I’m on Twitter too and from what I could tell, opposing opinions aren’t generally treated the same..
@@mustardmushroom4390you mean X
Lol wut - the dude was acting like a clown by lying so blatantly , the clown emoji is used when a situation is so sad it's funny, which is basically what happened here.
I don’t like to lie in any situation. I personally enjoy the peace of trying to be honest as possible.
That said, there are some people that take cEDH too seriously and try to politic all the time. I can hardly enjoy the game when I am playing with tryhards that are unable to stop asking questions and politicking every little advantage they can. I think at that point, lying to those people could be justified because if you tell the truth or remain quiet, they are getting an advantage over you. Maybe if we start lying more to those players, they would stop politicking so hard.
Politicking can be exhausting sometimes. That's why I always argue to be sparing with it. You don't want to get on peoples nerves. At the same time I think it's crucial in cEDH and it's a unique aspect of the format that defines it. I wouldn't want to completely dismiss it or react to it by lying, but I think we can use these kinds of situations to learn from and create a loose kind of code of conduct. Not a rule 0, but just a baseline of socially acceptable behavior.
@@EisenherzMTG Is really crucial though? For example, I am not an expert in poker, but I have never seeing a pro player ask an opponent for hidden information. The game values the ability of the players to infer the hidden information through the game actions and the board state of the players. They can bluff through game actions to attempt to distort the state awareness of their opponents.
In cEDH if you insert politics, bluffing in politics means lying and in the end a lie is a lie. When we are continuously trying to downplay our own perceived treat level to other players we are “blatantly” lying. I we want to be honest, we should recognize this fact.
Maybe politics don’t make the game better as some people may quickly asume. I personally would enjoy more bluffing through game actions than being force to lie to not lose in the politics game
Competition is just that. I see no difference in this vs a bluff or any misinformation conveyed. You play to win the game. This wasn't a casual pod, it was a cedh tourney and real money is on the line. Deception can win games, ever bluff you have a counter spell when you don't? Same same.
Not sure if this has been mentioned, but the video replay shown is cut and does not include the rest of the conversation and Cowboy Bob taking the time to find the line. It was a line that included multiple cards and needed the dockside to resolve with lots of treasures, so it was far from a routine line of play.
Frankly, that player gave due diligence. He told his opponents "You can believe me if y'all want to". And they chose to believe him. He laid out his opponent's options, and then they made a decision. Assuming there was something that could be done by his opponents, this was a misplay on their parts.
Don't hate the player, hate the game.
I disagree. This is not a way the most successful and reputable cEDH players play the game. It is a choice he made, but the way he did it was deceitful and dishonest. The biggest issue here being that not only does he "lie" or "bluff", but he pretends to be sorry about if afterwards. So either do it and stand by your decision to "lie" / "bluff" or don't do it at all.
If he went "Of course I was going for the win." afterwards it would have certainly be interpreted in a different way, but he didn't, which makes him look more like a liar than a bluffer.
I don't think him being sorry makes it worse.
If someone steals 500$ and says "I am sorry, but I really wanted the money" - that's preferable to me than the thief saying "ofc I was gonna steal your money, who keeps that much paper cash anyways, idiot!"
Basically the latter case bashes you for being dumb enough to trust people to be upright and honest. I personally wouldn't feel better if the liar had no empathy and wouldn't acknowledge the play was mean.
@@EisenherzMTG there is an "unsportsmanlike conduct" portion in the MTR. I believe that rule should be expanded to punish plays like this, in order to preserve the format's identity.
That said, I don't think anyone should persecute players like this until that addendum is made.
Again, the rules of the game are what allowed this to happen unpunished.
I think the key is to base all politics on agreements, and not implicit agreements, explicit agreements.
I don't think you should trust someone who's going to say 'Hey, I'm not going to win.' You should say, ok you're saying you won't win. If I do X, then you agree you won't attempt to win on your turn, no matter what. And then affirmatively agree to that deal.
Otherwise bluffing or deception could be reasonable, tho totally outright lying is yucky...
I didn't fully grasp the context. Did he pushed through a spell that fetched Breach directly into play, saying he was going to fetch a random creature instead to stop someone else?
Politics are not game mechanics. Play dumb games win stupid prizes. Politicking is not free of risk, and this is just facing the consequences of playing that lottery.
yes!!! best comment :D
@@henkdachief dumb take. Just bcs something is not written in the rules it doesnt mean its not a game mechanic. This guy will unlikely see a win in the future in that context. I wonder if he'll be able to get past 2 rounds in future tournaments.
I'm confused on weather this is against or for the guy. Is this risk the videos being made about him or the other players losing?
@@jaydonthewarrior636Pro-lying ie.if you're upset about someone bluffing you -- go play legos
thing is everyone hides the guys name in the clips and all the guy has to do is change his spelltable name if that. Really this guy is getting no real long term hate bc nobody knows who it is. So pretty much all im saying is theres no repercussions for him lying.
There's also no repercussions for players that don't really play in events that often or care about social credit or the opinions of the community.
Mr. Joe Rando is more likely to get away with lying his way to top cut vs someone like Comedian who has a rep and is an active member of the community.
I don't think people realize this. That extra EV is irrelevant if you only play maybe 2-3 events a year.
At that point you have to say to yourself, hey maybe this guy who isn't famous in the cedh community is lying when he says he can't win this turn.
a ton of tournament players already know his username and it actually made huge waves so he will be recognized unless he changes his username, camera setup and strong accent...
@@Joolenplus that's actually a good point. A "nobody" will much more likely get away with it than a more reputable and known player 👍
@@EisenherzMTG Many may recognize him from what I assume is Twitter, but there's a significant number of people not on that platform who might be unfamiliar with him (I haven't come across any mentions on Reddit with a specific username or identifier, only a discussion about the clip). Additionally, recalling accents, particularly in person, can be challenging. However, a simple adjustment of the playmate and camera angle is all he needs to improve and 99% will be non the wiser. It's not as if people are meticulously memorizing his mannerisms. Even if some are, it's likely to be a small minority, and they'll likely forget over time.
So, if the your argument against lying is that people will discover the truth and than not trust them, why keep his username or identifier hidden, potentially exposing more people to be cautious when playing with said player? As someone deeply involved in cEDH and staying informed about the community beyond Twitter, I find it essential to mention the person as open as possible.
I was asked by a player last Friday if my deck has recursion and I said no so he chose to discard a card which could exile my graveyard. Then on my turn I drew Sun Titan, the one card in my deck that gets things back from the graveyard which I had forgotten about. I was afraid to play it because I had just said my deck has no recursion. It easily looked like I could have had Sun Titan in my hand when he asked and lied because I wanted to make use of it. It sounds like this guy had all the necessary cards in his hand though when he said he didn’t
you didnt play it because of your conversation before? brother.. why would that player even ask you something like that? why did you answer? dont help your opponents if anything throw them off!
@@henkdachief No, I played it. I had nothing better to do. It was just awkward because it was my very next draw after saying I had no recursion. He asked because he had to draw and discard and wanted to know if his graveyard exile card would be useful or if he should dump it. Technically I had no obligation to answer but it’s just better to provide information in casual games or I would look like I’m taking it way too seriously. He did discard it but in retrospect he definitely should have used it on me because Sun Titan helped me win very quickly by getting back Skyclave Apparition and I was able to blink it several times each turn.
@@ilyafoskin idk.. too seriously? if its not serious why would he care about what to discard? it was seriuous enough to ask!
EDH players when someone is bluffing to win (winning is against the spirit of the format)
You seem to have missed the point of the video. Maybe rewatch to understand the the actual critique I'm articulating.
@@EisenherzMTG alright then, lemme dismantle this entire video to make sure I understood "the the [sic] actual critique"
1- You're assuming that the Kraum/Tymna player lied. It is entirely possible that they *genuinely* didn't see a winning line when asked if they had a way to win - hence why they're apologizing afterwards. For the sake of argument, I'm going to argue my next points with the assumption that he really did lie.
2- "It is not an illegal game action" => the only point that matters btw.
3- EDH / cEDH being social formats doesn't mean you need to be honest with your playgroup through and through. There are advantages to making allies and holding up your deals, just like there are advantages to misleading people or breaking a pact - which you acknowledged yourself.
4- If you're basing your "trust" of someone in a game of EDH / cEDH purely on their words, you're a sucker. There should be more to you allying yourself to one player than the promise said player is making. You can negotiate for an immediate proof of good faith. You can try and deduce information to confirm your bias in favor of or against certain players. If I'm playing Mono-Red and I go "I can deal with that Underworld Breach if you do a thing for me", do you just take my word for it, or do you stop for a second and think "wait, how the fuck does Mono-Red deal with Enchantments?"
5- Likewise, someone might have a reputation for suckering out of a few deals or lying every now and then, but that doesn't mean that you should never ally to them - just that you should be cautious. You can still make deals and have politics in an environment where trust isn't a binary. I personally believe it makes politics even more interesting - sure, the Raffine player offering me a deal could help me a bunch, but I should also be ready for them trying to cheese me, and they should probably be ready for me trying to cheese them.
6- Is winning... NOT the main point of a game in a cEDH tournament? Inb4 "we should all play to have fun".
7- I think tantrums like these and reactions of "smh unsportsmanlike behavior" are what turn people away from cEDH rather than the opposite. The idea that you'll be looked down upon if you try to win in a manner that your pod or the community at large will judge as "unsportsmanlike" is pretty discouraging. What if the community one day decides that Thoracle is too powerful and that using it makes you a terrible person? You do realize that this is pretty equivalent to some of the worst Rule 0 EDH discussions out there, right? EDIT: also I should add that someone using their platform to criticize the Kraum/Tymna player and incite others to dogpile on them for lying is super SUPER shitty - not talking about you here, even though I think you're complicit, but talking about the OG who posted the vid on Twitter to whine.
tl;dr lying is part of politics. Just like you shouldn't trust internet links that promise free money, you probably shouldn't 100% trust your allies in a game of cEDH - after all, they didn't build their deck to make you win, they built their deck to try and get a win of their own.
@@mekklordGood dismantling
@@mekklord You hit the nail on the head. Does it suck that he lost because the guy lied about going for the win? Yea kinda sucks. But its a top cut in a competitive EDH tournament with prizes on the line. The person who kept calling out the guy who won is just being a big baby. In a casual setting where you're not playing for rankings or prizes sure the lying is not cool. But in a tournament setting, you should never assume your opponent is NOT going for the win. That is the whole goal of the game at that point. To win the tourney.
Its a card game man, bluffing is the name of the game. Why don't people play with their hands face up so that everyone gets the most optimal plays worked out and the game becomes all luck instead of skill?
See...that's not bluffing. If he was bluffing, he wouldn't have been sorry afterwards. He just lied, which made him feel bad about his game action and that's why he felt the need to apologize multiple times. Politicking in this game is a skill just as brewing and piloting. I'm not saying that he shouldn't have tried to win there or deflected attention away from himself to get a window of opportunity. It's the way he did and the way he behaved afterwards.
There needs to be a balance of theoretically optimal actions and socially acceptable behavior. No successful and reputable cEDH player would have done this...at least not the way he did it.
@@EisenherzMTG In the scenario where he legit did not see the line until after he said he couldn't win, is he supposed to just pass turn?
bluffing is lying.. normally we dont lie so we feel sorry! but i dont know why he lied about being sorry! i dont think he was sorry! @@EisenherzMTG
1- love your Urza lists!
2- I don't understand what the fuss is about here- even after listening to your video. In tournament 1v1 magic, we don't trust our opponents. Why is there now an expectation of that in a tournament-Cedh setting?
Thanks 🙏
Because in cEDH it's a matter of nuance and sportsmanship. If you make a deal or promise to do XYZ it is usually expected of you to hold up your side of the deal. thats why politicking is so tricky and communicating / wording is so important. It's not being salty about an opponent seizing the opportunity to win, it's about sportsmanship and the implications this has for the future of the format and competitive scene. If he worded his intend differently or at the very least not pretend to be sorry about what he did, this would have come across very differently. However by promising one thing repeatedly, then winning and finally apologizing for winning, he showed that he intentionally acted in a way that is frowned upon, which although is legal still is unsportsmanlike.
Just like punching your opponent in the face when you'd usually touch gloves. It's legal, but unsportsmanlike and shouldn't establish itself as a common way to act in the competitive setting.
I'm honestly a bit surprised by how many people don't seem to grasp that concept. Every competitive sport has written and unwritten rules. In cEDH blatantly lying is mostly frowned upon, just as it is frowned upon to attack when touching gloves in boxing, just as it is frowned upon to score a goal when an opponent is injured on the field during a soccer match, etc. etc.
@@EisenherzMTGpeople who care about others opinions care about being "frowned upon". Players who care about the rules, period, dont.
Correct. There has been tons of bluffs in many card games and it's part of why people don't share their hands. Duh. You don't have to politic or tell anyone anything in this game especially competitive. Your supposed to gain leverage anytime you can to win lol. Looks like it was a win or lose situation for this guy and he played the cards in his hand to win any people are crying about it.
I truely don't understand the context here, player 2 (the player who wins) searches library and says "I'm not winning," but what was the conversation before resolution? Shouldnt the table have a conversation before resolution for the tutor? Did player 2 use the "I'm not winning" as justification to search and the table believed player 2? If I was player 2 and I was searching my library if I don't want to communicate what I'm finding that should be fair, obviously its antisocial but finding a clean open path to winning is part of the game. So would this behavior be ok if player 2 didn't say "I'm not winning"?
Also before the argument is made, if someone was going off and you decided to jam the win and get stuffed then ofc this is a bad EV play as you have now given the game to the person threatening the win. But overall if this is truly a difference between the player saying "I'm not winning" instead of "I wouldn't like to disclose what I'm searching for" I think this is getting wildly overblown. I think at this point I need to watch the whole game and conversation as I do not know if there was pressure from the table or not to disclose.
One last point, I am not saying everytime you search you should just keep your head down and say "I am not gonna tell the table what I'm getting" this is a terrible way to play and you will lose more games then win, almost assuredly, but there should be times where that response is justified, going for the win when you think its open is one of those times. Idk I'll watch the game and become more informed I imagine.
So one player had like 15 cards in hand and was very obviously ready to win. Player 2 then presented some very threatening game actions and multiple times stated things like "I'm not winning, I'm just trying to get interaction to stop him (referring to the player with 15ish cards in hand). He did this so often and that the other players decided not to interact with him in an effort to stop the other player (15 cards guy) from winning. Yet, instead of looking for interaction, P2 just presented his own win.
There was for sure some naivety involved by the other two players, but the big mistake player 2 made here is not that he went for the win, but how he "politicked" to get there. To put it simply, he should have used his words more carefully and he should probably not have backpaddled after breaking the deal. He first showed a lack of integrity and later a lack of backbone.
If he were to just use his words more carefully to open up that window for him and afterwards stand firm by his decision, most people wouldn't have batted an eye. By repeatedly apologizing and pretending to no have seen the line etc. etc. he makes himself look much more dishonest and deceitful. It doesn't convey a high level of politicking skill, but more a lack of accountability for taking a frowned upon way to victory. That's why it is interpreted in such a negative way.
My whole point is that we are trying to squeeze a social game into a competitive setting and this leads to situations where some actions although in theory more optimal lead to a social backlash. We need to find a common ground as a community on what is acceptable and what isn't. Most people I talked to agree that this isn't, but the line is obviously not clear and that's why we need to look into these situations and their consequences. To learn from them and grow with them.
@@EisenherzMTG yes this is the context that was missing and that makes more sense, he definitely should have been more careful with his words, hopefully a learning experience for player 2. Twitter gave no context at all. I'm honestly super surprised you jam on a table where a player has 15 cards and others feinted interaction. Thank you for the full context not just the Twitter context
@@EisenherzMTG It is a competitive game where you can't take people's words at face value necessarily. Just like you may play around your opponent having enough untapped islands for a counterspell, you should take all the possibilities into effect. Although many people say "dishonesty once makes people less likely to trust you next time", that doesn't mean that you NEED to be honest, and the fact that nobody is obligated to follow the rules besides their own "honor" adds tension and complexity to the game.
Magic players prefer to feel in control of the situation. To feel that way when you aren't doesn't mean your opponent cheated, it means you did bad threat assessment. He shouldn't have apologized or felt bad for winning the game in a competitive environment.
@@EisenherzMTG we still don't know the actual line of play.
Did he fetch Grand Abolisher directly into play, then presented the win?
Why the guy with 15 cards in hand didn't interacted either?
What's the difference for the other two to loose to one or the other?
In a previous video, you say you drew a game by convincing the table you were able to kingmake either of two people, when in truth one of them was going to lose anyway. You knew that, but you kept it hidden to get the draw.
Why was that correct and this isn't?
Did he tutor for the sevinne's?.. did no one ask about what was in his graveyard(which is public knowledge)? There were a lot of bkue players there did they blow their interaction with the others besides Bob?
So it was a little bit more complicated: Another player had like 15 cards in hand and was obviously about to win the game, so they basically allied to accumulate interaction and stop that player from winning. At least that's what the "liar" promised to do. He surprisingly led his turn with a Silence, which made everyone alert. They wanted to stop him right then and there - fearing that he would go for a win - but he repeatedly promised that he was only going to use the Silence to find more interaction against the other player (15 cards in hand guy) and not have him be stopped dead in his tracks. He promised multiple times to only find interaction to stop the other player and eventually they believed him (not like they weren't skeptical). He then took the chance as Silence resolved to go for the win. Later stating that he was sorry, didn't see the line previously yadiya and took the chance to go for the win although he wasn't planning on doing that. Which was a lie - we know that for a fact now - and is also pretty unsportsmanlike and shows a lack of integrity. He lied intentionally and fake-apologized and looked for excuses for his unsportsmanlike behavior so that he can make Top4 in a tournament that will give him points for the Invitationals later this year.
Lsv would have done the same thing
Can’t even tell what happened with this clip……
The tldr is he repeatedly said he was casting a tutor to get something to stop another player winning, and that he couldn't win off the tutor, then played underworld breach to immediately win, then apologized for being a scumbag and then said good game.
A fient or bluff is much different then and elbow to the face. If the social agreement is we are boxing.
If the social agreements is by any means. Not only does it completely destroy the verbal aspect of a 4 player game but it further propagates the cheating culture.
So we skip over an actual cheater to make a video on a guy thats already getting harrassed for playing within the rules. This is wild.
Watch my other videos. I covered the cheating incident. 👍
@@EisenherzMTG @EisenherzMTG I already knew that. But you're the one that chose to make a video attacking someone playing legally. Calling them a clown, calling gameplay bs. Nobody ever has a duty to reveal information to you unless an effect states that you must. You're the issue here. Not to mention you actively made the choice to attack him instead of the actual cheater a full week in advance. Using social media to bully people doing nothing wrong is still wild.
That's what happens when you play commander! Sorry not sorry if you have any cross talk or politicals it's all the same as what this dude did.
Actually not. This is something that rarely happens in cEDH tournaments. Politicking is more nuanced than blatantly lying.
The questions remains: Do we want this kind of behavior to establish itself in the community. Most people absolutely don't. Hence the negative feedback. We've had a similar case with mana / priority bullying last year. It lead to a debate and people became much more aware of it and now it's much less of an issue. This is another one of those moment for the cEDH community to learn and grow from.
We make the community. We shape the community.
@@EisenherzMTGIf I have the win in my turn and one opponent tries to get an advantage by asking me if I am going to win what should I do? If I tell the truth I will get my boardstate blown up and my opponents will keep all their interactions for my turn. Maybe the problem is that some people try to politic too much and that is also lack of sportmanship.
this comment is sick, wanting your preferences forced on other because you are an "influencer" or a community leader? 100% scumbag behaviour, thats why losers should not have power fr we see this stuff too in speedruninng where commitees ban players for all kinds of stuff they dont agree with eventho they dont break any rule. having a central "cedh community" is super dangerous @@EisenherzMTG
is this guy a liar or is he just bad at bluffing and blundered the social aspect of the game? deception and information withholding is part of the game, that's why you play with your hand hidden. but you also have to weigh the loss of trust from other competitors in future games
Yeah...politicking is very nuanced. If a player doesn't have the skill (yet) to do it in a way that doesn't lead to a massive backlash maybe they shouldn't fall back on it in these kinds of situations. We all move on the verge of lying when deflecting attention away from us, pretending not to be a major threat etc. etc., but in this case it is so obvious and so poorly done that it leaves an extremely bad aftertaste.
Add the fact that the player pretends to not have seen the line and pretends to be sorry afterwards. It leads to cognitive dissonance that makes him appear not only as a liar, but also as spineless. As harsh as it might seem. If he at the very least would have stand by his decision, it would have certainly been interpreted a little different.
yea i totally agree that this player played the situation quite poorly - i think a more experience politicker could have navigated the same situation and not get the same result @@EisenherzMTG
This is the first time I've seen the full clip. Guy goes from talking himself down to winning outright in 15 seconds flat, no way that's legit. Totally with you here, it's not the done thing. I've seen a lot of casuals weigh in to say it's just salt, but if Kai used his interaction to get the table a win attempt just to be screwed by a lie that's utter garbage.
i see many casuals saying lying is not okay! but it is
agree 100% with this creators ideals. commander is fun and social based. making it competitive was a bad idea in the first place. but since it is then the base aspects of the entire format should still be the most important
Eisenherz forever based
Unfortunately, I think this is what will kill cEDH. Lying and cheating will only get worse the bigger these tournaments get. Unfortunately, I can see why random nobodies can find the political environment to be kind of dumb for a lack of a better word. Everyone is there to win, and most people will result into using wording that will give them the most flexibility to go for any advantage. Near the end of my time playing cEDH, I gave up on the word play and just became brutally honest in everything I did and said.
I think the crux of the problem is people don't have the full context from just the clip Kai posted. There are nuances that were lost on the average viewer for what the situation really was and what Kai's actual intentions were when posting the clip. Kai's and others ONLY option for curbing the number of individuals acting this way in pods is to spread awareness and damage the rep of that person. Hope the community can move forward and grow from this and that clownboy bob never touches a top table again. 😂
Basically why I made the video. I see this as an opportunity to make people aware of these situations and actively think about what they want and don't want at a tournament table. Cowboy Bob is probably not a bad person or anything, but what he did was just pretty unsportsmanlike and it needs to be made public so it doesn't establish itself.
With the flux of popularity has come a flux of cheaters and liars. The social aspect of cEDH is extremely unhealthy at the moment.
If any pilot feels that they need to lie to win. They must not be very good at piloting. Social contracts exist in this format because it is a social format. Break these contracts and we no longer have a format. Its that simple. I dont care the setting or the games "importance". break the contract. Break the game.
💯
I think it should be illegal, same as insulting other players. For me is a lack of respect and should be treated like this.
Of course it wont be Black or write allways, there are a lot of rules in magic that can be readed differently according with the intention of the players or the nature of the situation.
what about asking players questions about hidden info? should that be illegal too?
@@henkdachief this is not disrespectful
@@LaCasadelComandante its super disrespectful you are basically bullying the player you are asking, fishing for hidden info while banking on them making a mistake by telling you. its okay to lie in magic rules: not to lie about a boardstate but to lie about hidden info. "did you make a land drop?" cant lie about that, "do you have a removal / the kill?" def can lie about that and if somebody even asks i would lie.
@@henkdachief i respect your point of view but I don't agree with you.
If somebody ask you about hidden info, you can allways ask saying"probanly" or "Who knows". You are not forced to answer. But lying creates a bad enviroment and is disrespectful.
For me it should be added to the list of "special rules" of cEDH like the kingmaking or the spite plays
@@LaCasadelComandante 1. its not disrespectful, its part of the game! and thats for a reason! whats not part of the game is getting access to hidden info. 2. you should not be forced to either be truthful or say "who knows" when asked a question, you getting aksed that question already puts pressure on you and people try to get a read by your answer regardless. if you make the wrong answer illegal asking people constantly what they have would get super valueble and in fact there are players you do play like that already, asking every player multiple times in a turncycle and its the worst. i think nobody is angry when somebody lies in amogus so its basically just a mindset thing.