Really appreciate the healthy skepticism not only in the claims of products but in your own testing as well - i think it encourages an attitude of critical thinking in the consumer, which is good cause we're all guilty of chasing after a simple answer sometimes. Mega review indeed!
I think winspce has stepped up a bit quick and i hope they dont get knocked back by this wheels set. Ive had both gen 1/2 hypers and the grapids. They are unreal. But as they expand, quality seems to be getting more lax. When the hypers were 1200 with 10%/ discount i could handle re-truing wheels soon after i got them, but with hypers at 1500 and this set at 2600, they need to up their QA game, they are in the big leagues now. These should be spot-on for those prices.
Good vid. Have you reviewed any FFWD wheels? Seen good things about them but would be nice to see more detailed comparisons by creators such as yourself.
I recently picked up a pair of Light Bicycle AR465s and the out-of-box fit and finish was significantly higher than the out-of-box quality of my Zipp 303S. N=1, but noticable.
Great vid as always 👌🏼 A couple of things worth mentioning: - The halo spokes are replaceable (unlike similar designs such as the Lightweights) - Spares, support and local warranties are available from Winspace’s network of distributors , including here in the UK 👍🏻
Scott/Syncros released their new monocoque wheelset the Capitol SL. They worked with an engineering company called Radiate and to me (REGARDLESS) of price seem way better built and thought out than the Winspace MEGA. Capital SL's spokes are not bonded to the hub shell whereas the MEGA the spokes are bonded to the hub shell as well as where the spokes cross. The other big difference is the Capital SL's don't use screws for the hubs. So no issue there. Would love to see PT review the Capital SL's but ain't no one is about to buy one and send it for review and I seriously doubt Scott/Syncros would send one to review either.
@@pigupigu Hookless isn't that bad. Just need to make sure you pair it with the right tire and not exceed the max psi. no worries as clincher rims are not going away.
The point of this design from Winspace is that they are at least a little servicable. On the syncros you damage a spoke or the rim you have to throw the whole thing in the bin
@@invisiblescout6335 understood. But I think breaking a spoke on a road bike is very rare. Not saying impossible but just rare. Common reasons for spokes breaking on a road bike is due to compromise in the nipple (corroded or loosened). Spoke tension as well. One piece rim means you never have to worry about trueing the wheel. Ever. To me if I bought these wheels I wouldn't really worry about a spoke breaking. I never ride through a pile of branches and the roads are always clear of such things
Might be a dumb question but why make them just 45 54 rather than 60 60 or more depth? That’s what Syncros did. The whole point is to make aero wheels as light as climbing wheels
I am an engineer myself, and I definitely respect the engineering behind these new high-end Chinese wheelssets that are popping up. If you wanna go all out in perfect conditions, this is probably the way to go. But I think for 99% of all consumers, even if you like to go fast, there is so much more value with non proprietary, no-nonsense stuff. Dt240 paired with cx ray's and nice rims with 28 or 30mm tires is just so easy to life with and still very good performing. You get spares, you have all the documentation and knowledge you want out there and no proprietary parts. It is basically the same for the hole industry. Sure, integration is nice, but the world was just simpler without integrated cockpits and with standards that really were standards...
Hey there PT! Really interesting stuff. Crazy to see those bolts going without threadlocker. Basically rear derailleur cage bolts just waiting to hit the roadside. You've brought up these carbon spoked wheels being overly stiff here, not being suited for rough or long rides and I can definitely understand that. However it seems that the general stiffness/deflection/comfort philosophy of this channel is in line with Josh Poertner's theories, stacked springs etc and that when experienced as part of the system containing a saddle, chammy, seatpost and tyres it should be very minimal or not notable. Is there something here that I'm missing? low deflection numbers but some vibrational component that is harsh to the rider? Maybe it's something that could be explored more in a future video.
It would be really nice to hear you talking more about the relationship between spoke tension and wheel stiffness. That’s something that I have never thought about before 🤯
@@PeakTorqueindeed, from all the test I have seen and done over the years, the big impact is when a spoke come totally unloaded (that happens way more often that what people think under big accelerations). You very nicely pointed out that bonded spokes (Mavic Ultimate, LW, Corima MCC, the recent Syncros) mostly kill some of the degrees of freedom. The Mega does half of the path.
Increasing the spoke tension will not increase the wheel stiffness. I'll try and explain what I think Peak Torque was trying to say in the video. Spoke tension is an internal stress where all of the forces of the spokes in the wheel are in equilibrium. By adding spoke tension to all of the spokes equally all you are doing is stretching the spoke by threading it further into the spoke nipple. The purpose of doing this is to reduce the chances of the spokes de-tensioning when you are riding the bike. When spokes completely de-tension the nipples can spin and the wheel will go out of true. Low spoke tension wheels are for lighter and less powerful riders. To "defy" Hooke's law a material will have to stretch (deform) beyond its elastic limit. When you taco your wheel at a cyclocross race, that's when you have defied Hooke's law. According to Hooke's law the amount a spoke will deflect (stretch) is related only to its diameter, initial length, and the material constant E or Young's modulus for which it is constructed, and of course the applied force. Therefore, to stiffen a wheel you can either add more spokes, increase the diameter of the spokes, change the spoke material or shorten the length of the spokes (longer spokes being more flexible). Note, the carbon fiber composite spokes used on this wheel are likely the reason this wheel is stiffer. Even though carbon spokes have a lower elastic modulus compared to stainless steel the much larger cross sectional area means they are likely stiffer. In addition, by bonding the spokes together where they cross effectively reduces their length (also increasing stiffness). This is similar to using a high flange hub, which allows the spokes to be shorter, but in this case at a reduced weight penalty. As an aside this is an old technique used by wheel builders going way back to the early days of racing when steel spokes were brazed together where they cross each other. Wheel builders would do this for their sprinters who could generate huge forces in the wheel and cause lots of spokes to de-tension. High flange hubs were used for this too, but they weigh more, and weight matters in racing. Another way to stiffen a wheel is by increasing the rim depth which will shorten the spokes as well, but will add weight. A comfortable wheel on the other hand will have fewer, longer, and a thinner diameter spokes, but the wheel will be more flexy. You can increase the spoke tension in this same wheel to create a comfy wheel for a heavier rider, but at the risk of over stressing the nipple bed in the rim. Some rims come with reinforced eyelets to allow a wheel to be built with higher tension for this case. I prefer flexy comfy wheels.😄 Heavy riders and powerful sprinters want stiffer wheels. Interesting subject, I hope I helped confuse things even more.🤣 Cheers!
@@Henrywildeberry all true but not at what i was hinting at. In theory higher spoke tensions should not create a stiffer wheel, however when such high tensions allow for little/no nipple shifting or pivoting in its seat, you get a stiffer wheel. Same applies at the hub end. Analogously, low tensions allow more nipple movement, yielding more overall flex. So, it is a byproduct of spoke tension resisting DOFs (degrees of freedom) of the spokes' end condition. This is an essential point of theory of any static or dynamic structure with members in tension (ime truss bridges) whether statically indeterminate or not.
@@Henrywildeberry Thank you so much for the explanation! As a steel frame rider, downtube shifter user and amateur wheel builder I enjoy your videos as well. Looking forward to your upcoming creations.
Thanks for the great review as I'm in the market for a set of nice wheels. Was considering the HED Vanquish and then got excited about these Megas... but as you have noted, I don't want to reduce air pressure to increase comfort as where I ride, the roads are total crap.
Hi PT, Can you please dive deep into the spoke tension and wheel stiffness topic? There is far too many forum threads bickering and in the best case scenario people just end up collectively wondering: "It it doesn't matter, why do people claim to perceive the difference?" Aaron Gwin, gets his nipples twisted for some races. And according to his mechanic, he can tell the difference of 0.5psi tyre pressure. What is it, that we don't know? Also, many folks claim differences in vertical stiffness among wheels is much less dependent that their construction (spoke type/count, rim shape/material) - compared to their lateral stiffness. If that is true. Can laterally flexible wheel deflect off of obstacle (asphalt joint) at an angle to create an illusion of a "vertical compliance"?
I noticed you mentioned the stupidity of knurled knobs and surfaces on carbon frames. So I have the original Hyper 50 rim brake wheelset and checked. So far, no dropout erosion - but I am very careful putting the wheels on and off. Nonetheless, I smoothed the knurling somewhat. The knobs are some white material and the contact surfaces of the hubs looks aluminium. So question, can I smooth them completely and expect long dropout life ? My previous bike is a 1993 aluminium Cannondale 2.8. I finally decided to give the cantilevered rear dropouts a rest and got a 2019 SuperSix Evo - not hi-mod. Hope to get many years from this carbon bike.
Would definitely watch a video on relative impacts of wheel stiffness versus tire pressure and seatpost deflection on comfort. Had been convinced latter two were way more important than frame stiffness but have seen very little discussion of wheel stiffness relative to frame
Hi, I have a question about the lateral stiffness graphic. I'm looking for new wheelset, and the Farsports revo is one of the models I'm taking in consideration (sorry, it's a bit off topic), but I've seen that is in the bottom... Are those the 56mm depth ones? If those are, do yo think that less stiffness actually affects the performance or is just a number for common people? Anyway, thanks for your honest and criticist reviews.
I guess this is kind of new. Well, it is basically an updated version of the topolino wheels. If the rigidity of the spoke - hub interface is helping reduce resonance than I would imagine industry nine wheels are also quieter? I wonder it tied and soldered steel spokes would also reduce resonance under braking.
Hi Alex, what can you say about wheels you have tested and longevity of the spoke nipples? Will wheels with alloy spoke nipples survive a winter on British roads. Taking into account a lot of riding in wet often partially flooded roads. Am I right in thinking that most of carbon wheels are build with alloy nipples these days? It doesn't matter if wheel is strong, bearings are smooth if spokes will keep popping. I had alloy nipple snapped because of corrosion on 4 month old wheel, I don't think this is normal.
whats the difference between gen 1 and gen 2 d45 besides design? I heard their wheels or hubs lack grease and makes a lot of noise. If that's true, which one would be best to get?
No it isn't. Meilenstein is a one piece construction. They are not replaceable. Each spoke set here is replaceable and true-able using the traditional threaded ends.
About the lack of noise, it seems that the spokes are "tied" together at their crossing point, don't you think this could act as a damper (kind of like on piano strings)? that could explain why the braking vibrations don't transmit tho the wheel?
If your aerodynamic testing highlights a difference in rider weight, aren't your results invalid? You will not be able to tare your body shape every time you ride and I you will inevitably wear less in summer vs winter?
That hub/spoke design looks exactly like Mad Fiber from Seattle (which ended up going out of business about 10-15 years ago). I wonder whether they obtained the patent/idea from them.
Mad fiber were late to the game, the first ones to design a carbon structure you tension by pushing our the flanges were Spinergy on the RevX, then LW, then Mavic (17years ago) and Aerotech, Mad fiber came after all those and had massive problems to keep their rim integrity.
yes, that is not really impressive, and the rims are not really light, (in the 470g range, when Mavic Ultimate is 400 for an overall weight of 1250g if I recall well).
The stiffest wheels on your test chart are FS Ventoux S6 but I can't find these on the Farsports website. Are they the same as the FARSPORTS EVO SERIES S6 EVO6 (56mm, 1370g) ?
I'm in a really tough spot....Hyper d45s or Roval Rapide CL2....I know the winspace are much faster but want full crash replacement, warranty, available parts etc.
Cracked a rim racing a crit. Rep would not warranty it. I would have to buy a new rim with $150 shipping from China and rebuild it myself with the existing, potentially compromised, carbon spokes. Nope. I want aluminum hubs and steel spokes. Easily replaced and repaired. Never again.
Shame, so many chinese companies do not work with GS1 standards reg. GTIN and 2D Barcodes. Would be so much easier and more transparent to follow-up and ensure valuechain/quality
Great channel! I really enjoy your content. Question...What are your thoughts on hookless wheels? I have ZIPP 454 NSW wheels and they are hookless. A lot of people say they are more dangerous, but if they are then why are so many people and pro teams using them. Anyway, I wish you all the best. Cheers!
Sponsorship. Many brands (DT being one) have come out and said they're not pursuing it. It offers no consumer benefit, but quite a large cost reduction in mould tooling. I may do a video on this soon.
Do you know if these wheels have a rider/system weight limit? That's something that would be a useful piece of info (well... for some of us... 😉) on all your wheel reviews.
Looks very similar to the Mad Fiber/Ric Hjertberg design from 15 or so years ago? Things at Mad Fiber ended very messily, after they were absorbed into a large sporting goods conglomerate and the tooling was sold off for pennies on the dollar. Is it possible that Winspace bought that tooling, and the intellectual property...?
@@cipo36an203 to be honest, I don't know very little about those LW and Mavic wheels. I don't tend to pay too much attention to bike components that are way beyond my financial means. I only know about the Mad Fibers because they were a local company, and I knew someone that worked there. Presumably the Mad Fiber wheels were different enough from those other two brands such that there was no patent infringement? I would think that Mavic especially is a large enough company to have the ability to defend it's patents, if they felt that a company like Mad Fiber had ripped them off in any way?
Condem the abuse of "boundary conditions" term, specifically in place of DOF: it's a dirty practice to mix up multibody dynamics and structural mechanics. Also, there must be no use of countersunk screws outside cabinetmaking. If you can have extra material to withstand extra hoop stress, should be able to redistribute it so that a flathead screw would fit.
a boundary condition can be expressed in terms of DOF though. A fixed boundary condition is a zero DOF boundary condition. I see no issue here. And a huge basis of multibody dynamics is in fact structural mechanics so there is nothing dirty about the overlap in terminology there either. What is the point of a countersunk screw anyway, structurally sound or aesthetically pleasing or both?
@@DeltaDelta it's the axiomatics of these two disciplines that matter for me and consecutevely different calculation methods. So if you take a single spoke deflection and its eigenfrequency, that would be SM with BC, if you talk wheel made of rim, spokes and a hub, that's MBD with DOFs. Sure, when designing the wheel and calculating its characteristics you consecutevely change from one method to another several times, but that's a "dirty trick" not for the presentation.
Well that is where I disagree with you, the nature of the loading is what would classify it as a dynamic body or not. A single spoke is still a dynamic body if the loading is dynamic. Whether you model it as a static problem with boundary conditions or a dynamic problem with initial boundary conditions is a completely different argument. You still have boundary conditions and DOFs in both models. Structural mechanics is the basis and we all understood what PT said in his presentation regardless of it being a "dirty trick" or not :D
@@DeltaDelta no, please stop. Depending on the discipline one word means different things. It's not static VS dynamic here. It's a discipline about interaction of virtually rigid bodies VS discipline about deflections of a single body. This is the real problem here, PT is talking from the basis of SM like frequency of a spoke based on its BC, but comes to the conclusions of MBD like frequency response of the wheel under braking. Of course for the purposes of YT video he omits the math and translation from one system to another, but that hurts me as a scholar. Also, the F is a "dynamic body"? You are literally insulting me here without knowing it.
Don't feel insulted, you aren't the smartest person in the world and neither am I. Same way I don't feel insulted by your grammatical mistakes (I make them too). I understood what you typed, you 100% understood what I typed (RE dynamic body - a shorthand way of typing body under dynamic load or in dynamic motion) but that's ok. My point was SM leads to MBD and you feeling hurt by that is kinda silly. It is also completely unnecessary to explain as those of us who know, know the translation between the two systems and how it's done is irrelevant to the average consumer. I could also contest that frequency of a spoke based on its BC is not structural mechanics but structural dynamics. This has been fun though :)
Great video! Minor comment, you probably know this: point of inflection for a function is where the derivative of the function vanishes but the derivative does not change sign. You're looking at a minimum in your data. Think x^3 vs x^2. Cheers!
It was a leap! Im using it mainly for YT stuff. Still Windows for work/CAD but my cad is now mainly cloud based so thinking of going full mac tosser very soon.
They seem like a poor man's version of the new Syncros wheels (albeit happily not hookless). Though allegedly Scott had nothing to do with the development of the Syncros wheels , and they are just a licensed timed exclusive design from a big Taiwanese OEM. If they weren't hookless and money were no object I'd buy them .... but they're 4 grand and hookless, so no thanks.
Loctite is not uncommon in many fastening applications irrespective of cost. I've used it for 30 years on fine to course thread from toys to high performance racing engines.
3:00 Summer and autumn in the UK = all-year-weather = aka: all the time raining, just with additional fog in autumn/winter... ;-) 10:19 2,5-3kg less bodyweight, doesn´t do anything with your frontal area (except your are a midget), let´s be serious...
People should use their own judgement, always! I have not seen any other reports of this issue, either from contacting owners, reviews or on forums. I am not leading the blind here sir.
@@onegrapefruitlover i mean the performance gain is almost non existent for 99% of people. And an ugly bike is an ugly bike. Sooooo jea its a simple mashine. Make it look good and not cost a fortune
Chinese brands leading development... I hope so, then we can have some tit for tat and turn the tables... now we'll steal THEIR IP and see how they like it.
They aren't gonna whine about it like the west do. They may play the legal card if available since it's just part of the game; but they aren't gonna cry about it in the media. Are you aware that Meta (Facebook) and Google are copying TikTok, for instance? (Western companies copy one another all the time.) Crying about other countries copying is very much a western thing. In many parts of the world, copying and improving upon that is part of the innovation process.
right can't have knurred caps. as a trade off you as a hub specialist should know you would risk mkre bending aluminum axel on 5mm QR without knurred steel caps, but it's more mtb concern
@@PeakTorque Haven't had great experiences with components made in Asia over the years. Poor customer service too. Started investing in American made stuff and it just seems to have fewer issues and last longer. Had a question about an older White Industries hub and someone in their shop actually answered the phone. You can get a nice set of handbuilt American rims and hubs for $2500.
Lol Mad Fiber, a US company, had issues with their initial one-piece wheels. It's not like US companies never released a product that needed to be recalled, or that they offer a poor customer service. This is true for any company regardless of country. Only people full of prejudice believe otherwise with their selective memory and biased generalisation.
There is nothing to support this wheelset! Rust, maintenance craziness, 2600 in china, it is a show case of development- you just lost a subscriber- this is marketing readout!!!!! Yeah let’s spent 2600 on overstiffe for 5 miles ride! Where to start!!! Well I won, I ll rather watch honest nonsense from Black Inc
@@PeakTorque my recommendation to you, look back at your video and that ask yourself what if it was another UA-camr presenting the same outcome based on the same “limited” analysis, what would you say? The video feels biased, perhaps review your story line, and it might be better. I am annoyed with you because your channel used to be more serious or least impartial, this feels driven by marketing script.
those carbon stuff is insane . you just guys need to chill the fuck out with you stiffness and lightness and that price and fragility and unservicability.
Really appreciate the healthy skepticism not only in the claims of products but in your own testing as well - i think it encourages an attitude of critical thinking in the consumer, which is good cause we're all guilty of chasing after a simple answer sometimes. Mega review indeed!
Cheers bud
Might be a good idea to mark all the screws with a paint pen to give you an early warning if they start to come undone.
I think winspce has stepped up a bit quick and i hope they dont get knocked back by this wheels set. Ive had both gen 1/2 hypers and the grapids. They are unreal. But as they expand, quality seems to be getting more lax. When the hypers were 1200 with 10%/ discount i could handle re-truing wheels soon after i got them, but with hypers at 1500 and this set at 2600, they need to up their QA game, they are in the big leagues now. These should be spot-on for those prices.
Good vid. Have you reviewed any FFWD wheels? Seen good things about them but would be nice to see more detailed comparisons by creators such as yourself.
I recently picked up a pair of Light Bicycle AR465s and the out-of-box fit and finish was significantly higher than the out-of-box quality of my Zipp 303S. N=1, but noticable.
A PT and a Hambini video in the same day. Can’t ride today, gotta watch UA-cam.
Great vid as always 👌🏼
A couple of things worth mentioning:
- The halo spokes are replaceable (unlike similar designs such as the Lightweights)
- Spares, support and local warranties are available from Winspace’s network of distributors , including here in the UK 👍🏻
Scott/Syncros released their new monocoque wheelset the Capitol SL. They worked with an engineering company called Radiate and to me (REGARDLESS) of price seem way better built and thought out than the Winspace MEGA.
Capital SL's spokes are not bonded to the hub shell whereas the MEGA the spokes are bonded to the hub shell as well as where the spokes cross. The other big difference is the Capital SL's don't use screws for the hubs. So no issue there.
Would love to see PT review the Capital SL's but ain't no one is about to buy one and send it for review and I seriously doubt Scott/Syncros would send one to review either.
They are hookless only whereas Winspace are hooked only. End of discussion.
You couldn't pay me to ride hookless
@@pigupigu Hookless isn't that bad. Just need to make sure you pair it with the right tire and not exceed the max psi.
no worries as clincher rims are not going away.
The point of this design from Winspace is that they are at least a little servicable. On the syncros you damage a spoke or the rim you have to throw the whole thing in the bin
@@invisiblescout6335 understood. But I think breaking a spoke on a road bike is very rare. Not saying impossible but just rare.
Common reasons for spokes breaking on a road bike is due to compromise in the nipple (corroded or loosened). Spoke tension as well.
One piece rim means you never have to worry about trueing the wheel. Ever.
To me if I bought these wheels I wouldn't really worry about a spoke breaking. I never ride through a pile of branches and the roads are always clear of such things
Might be a dumb question but why make them just 45 54 rather than 60 60 or more depth? That’s what Syncros did. The whole point is to make aero wheels as light as climbing wheels
I am an engineer myself, and I definitely respect the engineering behind these new high-end Chinese wheelssets that are popping up. If you wanna go all out in perfect conditions, this is probably the way to go. But I think for 99% of all consumers, even if you like to go fast, there is so much more value with non proprietary, no-nonsense stuff. Dt240 paired with cx ray's and nice rims with 28 or 30mm tires is just so easy to life with and still very good performing. You get spares, you have all the documentation and knowledge you want out there and no proprietary parts. It is basically the same for the hole industry. Sure, integration is nice, but the world was just simpler without integrated cockpits and with standards that really were standards...
I agree with your points - not sure how the hole industry is related to bikes though.
Hey there PT! Really interesting stuff. Crazy to see those bolts going without threadlocker. Basically rear derailleur cage bolts just waiting to hit the roadside.
You've brought up these carbon spoked wheels being overly stiff here, not being suited for rough or long rides and I can definitely understand that. However it seems that the general stiffness/deflection/comfort philosophy of this channel is in line with Josh Poertner's theories, stacked springs etc and that when experienced as part of the system containing a saddle, chammy, seatpost and tyres it should be very minimal or not notable. Is there something here that I'm missing? low deflection numbers but some vibrational component that is harsh to the rider? Maybe it's something that could be explored more in a future video.
saw it on shanghai bike show, wating for the great PT to test, and here it comes!
It would be really nice to hear you talking more about the relationship between spoke tension and wheel stiffness. That’s something that I have never thought about before 🤯
Its gets a lot of people upset when you defy Hooke's law but it all depends on boundary conditions of the spoke ends!
@@PeakTorqueindeed, from all the test I have seen and done over the years, the big impact is when a spoke come totally unloaded (that happens way more often that what people think under big accelerations).
You very nicely pointed out that bonded spokes (Mavic Ultimate, LW, Corima MCC, the recent Syncros) mostly kill some of the degrees of freedom. The Mega does half of the path.
Increasing the spoke tension will not increase the wheel stiffness. I'll try and explain what I think Peak Torque was trying to say in the video. Spoke tension is an internal stress where all of the forces of the spokes in the wheel are in equilibrium. By adding spoke tension to all of the spokes equally all you are doing is stretching the spoke by threading it further into the spoke nipple. The purpose of doing this is to reduce the chances of the spokes de-tensioning when you are riding the bike. When spokes completely de-tension the nipples can spin and the wheel will go out of true. Low spoke tension wheels are for lighter and less powerful riders.
To "defy" Hooke's law a material will have to stretch (deform) beyond its elastic limit. When you taco your wheel at a cyclocross race, that's when you have defied Hooke's law. According to Hooke's law the amount a spoke will deflect (stretch) is related only to its diameter, initial length, and the material constant E or Young's modulus for which it is constructed, and of course the applied force. Therefore, to stiffen a wheel you can either add more spokes, increase the diameter of the spokes, change the spoke material or shorten the length of the spokes (longer spokes being more flexible).
Note, the carbon fiber composite spokes used on this wheel are likely the reason this wheel is stiffer. Even though carbon spokes have a lower elastic modulus compared to stainless steel the much larger cross sectional area means they are likely stiffer. In addition, by bonding the spokes together where they cross effectively reduces their length (also increasing stiffness). This is similar to using a high flange hub, which allows the spokes to be shorter, but in this case at a reduced weight penalty. As an aside this is an old technique used by wheel builders going way back to the early days of racing when steel spokes were brazed together where they cross each other. Wheel builders would do this for their sprinters who could generate huge forces in the wheel and cause lots of spokes to de-tension. High flange hubs were used for this too, but they weigh more, and weight matters in racing.
Another way to stiffen a wheel is by increasing the rim depth which will shorten the spokes as well, but will add weight. A comfortable wheel on the other hand will have fewer, longer, and a thinner diameter spokes, but the wheel will be more flexy. You can increase the spoke tension in this same wheel to create a comfy wheel for a heavier rider, but at the risk of over stressing the nipple bed in the rim. Some rims come with reinforced eyelets to allow a wheel to be built with higher tension for this case. I prefer flexy comfy wheels.😄 Heavy riders and powerful sprinters want stiffer wheels. Interesting subject, I hope I helped confuse things even more.🤣 Cheers!
@@Henrywildeberry all true but not at what i was hinting at. In theory higher spoke tensions should not create a stiffer wheel, however when such high tensions allow for little/no nipple shifting or pivoting in its seat, you get a stiffer wheel. Same applies at the hub end. Analogously, low tensions allow more nipple movement, yielding more overall flex. So, it is a byproduct of spoke tension resisting DOFs (degrees of freedom) of the spokes' end condition. This is an essential point of theory of any static or dynamic structure with members in tension (ime truss bridges) whether statically indeterminate or not.
@@Henrywildeberry Thank you so much for the explanation! As a steel frame rider, downtube shifter user and amateur wheel builder I enjoy your videos as well. Looking forward to your upcoming creations.
Thanks for the great review as I'm in the market for a set of nice wheels. Was considering the HED Vanquish and then got excited about these Megas... but as you have noted, I don't want to reduce air pressure to increase comfort as where I ride, the roads are total crap.
Is the opening music a sample of Hambini saying ‘Hello’?
Love it. Have had gen1 38mm Winspace wheels on a 2016 TCR for many years now, best wheels ever for the money! These new ones look amazing.
Very hard to pay this premium price without the lifetime warranty.
Hi PT,
Can you please dive deep into the spoke tension and wheel stiffness topic?
There is far too many forum threads bickering and in the best case scenario people just end up collectively wondering: "It it doesn't matter, why do people claim to perceive the difference?"
Aaron Gwin, gets his nipples twisted for some races. And according to his mechanic, he can tell the difference of 0.5psi tyre pressure.
What is it, that we don't know?
Also, many folks claim differences in vertical stiffness among wheels is much less dependent that their construction (spoke type/count, rim shape/material) - compared to their lateral stiffness.
If that is true. Can laterally flexible wheel deflect off of obstacle (asphalt joint) at an angle to create an illusion of a "vertical compliance"?
I noticed you mentioned the stupidity of knurled knobs and surfaces on carbon frames. So I have the original Hyper 50 rim brake wheelset and checked. So far, no dropout erosion - but I am very careful putting the wheels on and off. Nonetheless, I smoothed the knurling somewhat. The knobs are some white material and the contact surfaces of the hubs looks aluminium.
So question, can I smooth them completely and expect long dropout life ? My previous bike is a 1993 aluminium Cannondale 2.8. I finally decided to give the cantilevered rear dropouts a rest and got a 2019 SuperSix Evo - not hi-mod. Hope to get many years from this carbon bike.
Where did you get that picture of me for your t shirt?
Would definitely watch a video on relative impacts of wheel stiffness versus tire pressure and seatpost deflection on comfort. Had been convinced latter two were way more important than frame stiffness but have seen very little discussion of wheel stiffness relative to frame
So what do you do with these when one of the spokes breaks? Do you need to get an entire new "spoke set"?
Yes. The halo spoke set is available as a spare. Not practical! But available
This guy shows true integrity to his professional engineering certification
Hi, I have a question about the lateral stiffness graphic. I'm looking for new wheelset, and the Farsports revo is one of the models I'm taking in consideration (sorry, it's a bit off topic), but I've seen that is in the bottom... Are those the 56mm depth ones? If those are, do yo think that less stiffness actually affects the performance or is just a number for common people?
Anyway, thanks for your honest and criticist reviews.
the spoke ties look superb - gives it a bit of a retro hand built feel
More for ascetic over function
@@glennoc8585 aesthetic, yes
I guess this is kind of new. Well, it is basically an updated version of the topolino wheels. If the rigidity of the spoke - hub interface is helping reduce resonance than I would imagine industry nine wheels are also quieter? I wonder it tied and soldered steel spokes would also reduce resonance under braking.
Hi Alex, what can you say about wheels you have tested and longevity of the spoke nipples? Will wheels with alloy spoke nipples survive a winter on British roads. Taking into account a lot of riding in wet often partially flooded roads. Am I right in thinking that most of carbon wheels are build with alloy nipples these days? It doesn't matter if wheel is strong, bearings are smooth if spokes will keep popping. I had alloy nipple snapped because of corrosion on 4 month old wheel, I don't think this is normal.
whats the difference between gen 1 and gen 2 d45 besides design? I heard their wheels or hubs lack grease and makes a lot of noise. If that's true, which one would be best to get?
Isnt this wheelset a bit like the lightweight Meilenstein wheels?
Yes it is. And that design is 30 years old. Even Ineos were on Lightweights just a few years ago. Legendary wheels.
No it isn't. Meilenstein is a one piece construction. They are not replaceable. Each spoke set here is replaceable and true-able using the traditional threaded ends.
@@PeakTorque Not even "a bit" like the Meilensteins? Carbon spokes, wrapped together. I see it's an innovation but the inspiration must come from LW
About the lack of noise, it seems that the spokes are "tied" together at their crossing point, don't you think this could act as a damper (kind of like on piano strings)? that could explain why the braking vibrations don't transmit tho the wheel?
I love my Megas, haven’t noticed any issues with the hub screws
Is that a premium dork disc in the ziploc @18:23, or is the disc rotor project moving along nicely?
17:10 "Maybe I just got a bad set." *cuts the swear.
Thyou once again for your hard work and patience in explaining all this to us mere mortals !!! Chapeau mate
Very good review Pete ..... how do they compare to the Craft Works?
If your aerodynamic testing highlights a difference in rider weight, aren't your results invalid? You will not be able to tare your body shape every time you ride and I you will inevitably wear less in summer vs winter?
Thats why this test was split from the others and only compared to one other wheelset on the day. Kit is always the same, though.
They look cool but weight wise for that price. Surprised that they'd forgot to Loctite blue the threads must've been an assembler error.
That hub/spoke design looks exactly like Mad Fiber from Seattle (which ended up going out of business about 10-15 years ago). I wonder whether they obtained the patent/idea from them.
Mad fiber were late to the game, the first ones to design a carbon structure you tension by pushing our the flanges were Spinergy on the RevX, then LW, then Mavic (17years ago) and Aerotech, Mad fiber came after all those and had massive problems to keep their rim integrity.
@@cipo36an203 Rafe Schlanger
@@w00dreau indeed I remember this name, he later founded Topolino I think
Are 60mm rims stiffer than 40mm rims on wheels?
Weird, with that design it should be way lighter 🤔
Hub shell and flange interface are optimized for safety, not weight.
They should atleast be less than the hypers, being 2600$
*they should be faster.
yes, that is not really impressive, and the rims are not really light, (in the 470g range, when Mavic Ultimate is 400 for an overall weight of 1250g if I recall well).
The stiffest wheels on your test chart are FS Ventoux S6 but I can't find these on the Farsports website. Are they the same as the FARSPORTS EVO SERIES S6 EVO6 (56mm, 1370g) ?
Yes, pretty much. They rebranded them
@@PeakTorque Thanks for the reply!
Nice. But at 4.04, whats that brake rotor I see? Hmmmm???
I'm in a really tough spot....Hyper d45s or Roval Rapide CL2....I know the winspace are much faster but want full crash replacement, warranty, available parts etc.
Lots of countries, UK being one, now have approved importers and dealers that offer local support on the ground.
I'd like to cut one up to see if there's some sort of resonator built in.
It's a good excuse, neooo?
Any news on D65 MEGA?
Cracked a rim racing a crit. Rep would not warranty it. I would have to buy a new rim with $150 shipping from China and rebuild it myself with the existing, potentially compromised, carbon spokes. Nope. I want aluminum hubs and steel spokes. Easily replaced and repaired. Never again.
So the crw's are good now? $1600 is a little easier to swallow 😅
Oooh! I love a good spectrum analysis.
Shame, so many chinese companies do not work with GS1 standards reg. GTIN and 2D Barcodes. Would be so much easier and more transparent to follow-up and ensure valuechain/quality
Exactly. Well a lot of them do, but its their own proprietary system that isn't so regulated.
Waiting for mine to arrive 😊
pls review the new Princeton Wakes
Great channel! I really enjoy your content. Question...What are your thoughts on hookless wheels? I have ZIPP 454 NSW wheels and they are hookless. A lot of people say they are more dangerous, but if they are then why are so many people and pro teams using them. Anyway, I wish you all the best. Cheers!
Sponsorship. Many brands (DT being one) have come out and said they're not pursuing it. It offers no consumer benefit, but quite a large cost reduction in mould tooling. I may do a video on this soon.
Do you know if these wheels have a rider/system weight limit? That's something that would be a useful piece of info (well... for some of us... 😉) on all your wheel reviews.
I believe PT weights 375 stone, so us mortals will likely be fine.
@@buckcram5908 i think its 120kg limit but i will check. And yes I am actually 375kg not stones
Looks very similar to the Mad Fiber/Ric Hjertberg design from 15 or so years ago? Things at Mad Fiber ended very messily, after they were absorbed into a large sporting goods conglomerate and the tooling was sold off for pennies on the dollar. Is it possible that Winspace bought that tooling, and the intellectual property...?
funny that people remember mad fiber but LW and later Mavic Cosmic Ultimate were way earlier and much better (and still produced).
@@cipo36an203 to be honest, I don't know very little about those LW and Mavic wheels. I don't tend to pay too much attention to bike components that are way beyond my financial means. I only know about the Mad Fibers because they were a local company, and I knew someone that worked there.
Presumably the Mad Fiber wheels were different enough from those other two brands such that there was no patent infringement? I would think that Mavic especially is a large enough company to have the ability to defend it's patents, if they felt that a company like Mad Fiber had ripped them off in any way?
Condem the abuse of "boundary conditions" term, specifically in place of DOF: it's a dirty practice to mix up multibody dynamics and structural mechanics.
Also, there must be no use of countersunk screws outside cabinetmaking. If you can have extra material to withstand extra hoop stress, should be able to redistribute it so that a flathead screw would fit.
a boundary condition can be expressed in terms of DOF though. A fixed boundary condition is a zero DOF boundary condition. I see no issue here. And a huge basis of multibody dynamics is in fact structural mechanics so there is nothing dirty about the overlap in terminology there either. What is the point of a countersunk screw anyway, structurally sound or aesthetically pleasing or both?
@@DeltaDelta it's the axiomatics of these two disciplines that matter for me and consecutevely different calculation methods. So if you take a single spoke deflection and its eigenfrequency, that would be SM with BC, if you talk wheel made of rim, spokes and a hub, that's MBD with DOFs. Sure, when designing the wheel and calculating its characteristics you consecutevely change from one method to another several times, but that's a "dirty trick" not for the presentation.
Well that is where I disagree with you, the nature of the loading is what would classify it as a dynamic body or not. A single spoke is still a dynamic body if the loading is dynamic. Whether you model it as a static problem with boundary conditions or a dynamic problem with initial boundary conditions is a completely different argument. You still have boundary conditions and DOFs in both models. Structural mechanics is the basis and we all understood what PT said in his presentation regardless of it being a "dirty trick" or not :D
@@DeltaDelta no, please stop. Depending on the discipline one word means different things. It's not static VS dynamic here. It's a discipline about interaction of virtually rigid bodies VS discipline about deflections of a single body.
This is the real problem here, PT is talking from the basis of SM like frequency of a spoke based on its BC, but comes to the conclusions of MBD like frequency response of the wheel under braking. Of course for the purposes of YT video he omits the math and translation from one system to another, but that hurts me as a scholar.
Also, the F is a "dynamic body"? You are literally insulting me here without knowing it.
Don't feel insulted, you aren't the smartest person in the world and neither am I. Same way I don't feel insulted by your grammatical mistakes (I make them too). I understood what you typed, you 100% understood what I typed (RE dynamic body - a shorthand way of typing body under dynamic load or in dynamic motion) but that's ok. My point was SM leads to MBD and you feeling hurt by that is kinda silly. It is also completely unnecessary to explain as those of us who know, know the translation between the two systems and how it's done is irrelevant to the average consumer. I could also contest that frequency of a spoke based on its BC is not structural mechanics but structural dynamics. This has been fun though :)
Great video!
Minor comment, you probably know this: point of inflection for a function is where the derivative of the function vanishes but the derivative does not change sign. You're looking at a minimum in your data. Think x^3 vs x^2. Cheers!
Absolutely correct! Been a while since calculus class ...
One-K Wheels from Germany. Super lightweight, not much more expensive, 2.9k €. Rider Weightlimit might be a problem
Is there a braking performance change having the energy not turn into noise, with wheels this stiff?
Nice flex riding with FDJ at 10:25 🙂
I would like to say i stuck with them for the whole climb....but I'd be lying
Would be great if you could get your hands on the new Syncros Capital SL wheels.
I am using elite drive ,winspace hyper and compagnolo bora wto....elite n hyper wheelset performance are better than bora wto
Very interesting. Well done. As an aside, it's nice to see an engineer using a MacBook Pro. Bravo!
It was a leap! Im using it mainly for YT stuff. Still Windows for work/CAD but my cad is now mainly cloud based so thinking of going full mac tosser very soon.
@@PeakTorque Hahaha! Well, we welcome you with open arms. Hope you enjoy it.
It's 2024 and everyone is going for wider tires and comfort and they release a product like this...
They seem like a poor man's version of the new Syncros wheels (albeit happily not hookless). Though allegedly Scott had nothing to do with the development of the Syncros wheels , and they are just a licensed timed exclusive design from a big Taiwanese OEM. If they weren't hookless and money were no object I'd buy them .... but they're 4 grand and hookless, so no thanks.
The syncros can't replace the spokes either i think. These you can.
Syncros Capital SL any thoughts ?
Would love to get those on test. Non replaceable spokes though...
Are they really calling it "skunk-works?" It's funny because "S-works" is a play on the same name.
I have to say its laughable to need to Loctite screws on your spanking new 2600 dollar wheelset.
Loctite is not uncommon in many fastening applications irrespective of cost. I've used it for 30 years on fine to course thread from toys to high performance racing engines.
3:00 Summer and autumn in the UK = all-year-weather = aka: all the time raining, just with additional fog in autumn/winter... ;-)
10:19 2,5-3kg less bodyweight, doesn´t do anything with your frontal area (except your are a midget), let´s be serious...
if you genuinely think it was a one off and not just saying that so people buy them with your code i have a bridge to sell you
People should use their own judgement, always! I have not seen any other reports of this issue, either from contacting owners, reviews or on forums. I am not leading the blind here sir.
Sooooo exiteddddddd lol #Kevinheart
I will take a nice aluminium maschined hub any day instead of this kindergardenlooking glue mess
but it is still an alu shell underneath all "hot glue"
@@feedbackzaloop jea but seriously this is hideous...
So basically looks over performance, alright
It’s interesting what marketing does to people 😂
@@onegrapefruitlover i mean the performance gain is almost non existent for 99% of people. And an ugly bike is an ugly bike. Sooooo jea its a simple mashine. Make it look good and not cost a fortune
@@sempi8159haters gonna hate 🤷
Hellllloooou
Price is in envy range🤮🤮🤮
Chinese brands leading development... I hope so, then we can have some tit for tat and turn the tables... now we'll steal THEIR IP and see how they like it.
They aren't gonna whine about it like the west do. They may play the legal card if available since it's just part of the game; but they aren't gonna cry about it in the media. Are you aware that Meta (Facebook) and Google are copying TikTok, for instance? (Western companies copy one another all the time.) Crying about other countries copying is very much a western thing. In many parts of the world, copying and improving upon that is part of the innovation process.
Haha you spoked wheel guys and your resonance 😂😂😂
#ad
right can't have knurred caps. as a trade off you as a hub specialist should know you would risk mkre bending aluminum axel on 5mm QR without knurred steel caps, but it's more mtb concern
Just buy American.
Where are they made again?
@@PeakTorque Haven't had great experiences with components made in Asia over the years. Poor customer service too.
Started investing in American made stuff and it just seems to have fewer issues and last longer.
Had a question about an older White Industries hub and someone in their shop actually answered the phone.
You can get a nice set of handbuilt American rims and hubs for $2500.
Lol Mad Fiber, a US company, had issues with their initial one-piece wheels. It's not like US companies never released a product that needed to be recalled, or that they offer a poor customer service. This is true for any company regardless of country. Only people full of prejudice believe otherwise with their selective memory and biased generalisation.
There is nothing to support this wheelset! Rust, maintenance craziness, 2600 in china, it is a show case of development- you just lost a subscriber- this is marketing readout!!!!!
Yeah let’s spent 2600 on overstiffe for 5 miles ride! Where to start!!! Well I won, I ll rather watch honest nonsense from Black Inc
I went through the bad points, the good points, ALL with subjective data. Don't have to buy them do you i could not care less!
@@PeakTorque my recommendation to you, look back at your video and that ask yourself what if it was another UA-camr presenting the same outcome based on the same “limited” analysis, what would you say? The video feels biased, perhaps review your story line, and it might be better. I am annoyed with you because your channel used to be more serious or least impartial, this feels driven by marketing script.
@@olivierhiers4224 would you trust Winspace to write me a script? They can't even stop bolts coming out. This video is data driven.
@@PeakTorquesubjective lol
those carbon stuff is insane . you just guys need to chill the fuck out with you stiffness and lightness and that price and fragility and unservicability.
Too heavy and I would be worried about long term durability. For that money I would want something from DT or maybe Roval.