There wasn’t a loophole, the existing regulation was already very clear. Also 11.1.4 is very clear that the changes to the braking system must be operated by the driver. If someone was using an automatic device that operated under g-force, then it wasn’t driver operated. Finally I was under the impression that all teams had to gain approval of any non-spec parts used on the car prior to using them. The braking system is effectively a spec part delivered Brembo so was this device approved by the FIA?
Pretty sure Brembo only supply what mounted on the axles and the teams design the rest. It may be this came about from a team that wanted to apply it and the FIA said no, hence the clarification.
@@paulwood6729to be fair, I think this is one of the ways teams can call out other teams’ potential cheats without saying that they are actually cheating, by asking for clarifications with existing regs
I think Max has got it in the bag as Norris isn't quite ready to challenge for championship yet, though next year could be a very different story. However, it could be argued that McLaren are now favourites for the constructors as it's effectively Norris & Piastri vs just Max for any meaningful points.
@@bazwilliams6484 RedBull are equal first, or at worst, second atm. Don't forget, that last time out at Spa Max was much quicker than everyone else, the only reason he didn't win was due to the grid penalty. But it'll be interesting to see where RedBull are next season.
Hey there brother, it great to see you I want to say back but maybe it just that I've been MIA anyway I'll be tuning back in to your channel. Have a outstanding day.
Is the speculated Red Bull inertial valve particularly expensive, dangerous, hard to copy, against the spirit of F1 etc.? Just sometimes I struggle to understand why the FIA bans some innovations like this and not others
Completely about being against the spirit of the rules. It is probably cheap, safe and easy to copy, just out of the box idea that gives slight advantage while cornering.
Cause it's always been against the rules & the wider meaning? This is a much more clear shut case than DAS & has far bigger consequences. If you read the new clause...it's pretty much repeating the same thing as what what was already in the rules with a few more words. It's not even a trick or loophole.
I think the loophole is the energy recovery system. If you read the old and new regs, the energy recovery's braking effect isn't targeted until the changes. They could create something like stability control by recovering only on one side during cornering.
To me this fits up with Red Bull, Max had a brake failure on the right side in Melbourne, a few months ago there were rumors that the FIA had asked Red Bull to remove something from their car, and now the regulation clarification, plus their drop off in pace
It's surprising to me that this has become a story (because of peter windsor), but he says that Red Bull was forced to remove this system before Miami, because of regulation changes. But this regulation addition/clarification wasn't added until the start of the summer break. So for anyone doing a little bit of double-checking it is obvious that this isn't the reason for red bulls drop of pace since Miami.
It was an unnecessary clarification as the original wording says exactly the same as the clarification. It seems to have been added so people can say what you have just said, i.e. it has only just been added.
They changed it not because of the regulation changes but because of the behind-the-scenes talk with FIA to not make a scandal out of it. There were definitely some teams that caught to it after what happened to Max in Australia
@@martincday007 but the original wording is: "The brake system must be designed so that within each circuit, the forces applied to the brake pads are the same magnitude and act as opposing pairs on a given breke disc." You see ON A GIVEN BRAKE DISC. The rule was : every disc+pads should be in a given way, the given way wasnt equal force by disc it was equal force by pads on a give disc.
That braking rule ain't in the NASCAR rule book. Side to side bias makes it much easier to turn. You can also do it with different brake-pad compounds.
Definitely more to it. But we're gonna be gaslit by the status quo with the old, 'nothing to see here folks, move along!." Yet their actions beg to differ. We've seen it before, it's just how F1 works. FIA catches you out or preemptively calls you out for something it can't prove but suspects you're doing. Gentlemen's agreement behind closed doors. Offically FIA/the teaam deny it, even other teams don't always speak out cause they know it's how the game works. In a way, the system has been proven to work in the past & no doubt there's more examples that never made the light of day. F1 teams are not shy, if they're not in the wrong they shout it from rooftops...especially Redbull.
@@bjrnchrstn .... of course this is a possibility, but only one team has had a marked drop off !! Going on the evidence I can see, not facts .... I do not think the FIA is going to reveal who the "legal rule bender" is any way.
Melbourne '23, Perez ran off multiple times in practice (well, more than usual...lol). When he went off again in qualifying, he said, a little cryptically, "it's the same problem again." Max also had issues in practice. There have been several similar practice sessions that made me think RB was doing something funky with their brakes. No idea if it's related, but it would certainly make sense.
I suppose the easiest way to identify whether someone had been using the brakes in the way described would be to look at the braking data and look for the telltale application of brakes in acceleration zones
Yes, Benetton/Renault or whatever they were called in their Jarno Trulli days had a differential gear between the two front wheels so that braking force went more to the loaded wheel than the unloaded inside wheel. It was quite heavy.
Cheers MP ... as ever, thanks for sharing another round of clear, concise and comprehensive insights from someone who can genuinely claim to be a subject matter expert ... good man
I sort of dislike all these avenues to improve your car being curtailed. F1 is supposed to be the pinnacle of design, but all you ever hear from the FIA is all the things you aren't allowed to do. I understand there have to be limits to ensure the safety on and surrounding the circuit, but if limiting the teams is all you're going to do, put them all in spec cars and be done with it.
That’s one way to look at it but if the FIA didn’t introduce limits on things it would all be basic where as what this does is force engineers to look outside the square for new ideas on how to do the same thing which pushes the technology curve steeper
@@transient_ Correct and some do it better than others, with the FIA limiting what teams can do it forces them to be more creative and smarter on what they do which is why it’s the pinnacle of motorsport
@@knight2425 The FIA artificially limits the innovation and if the teams come up with something useful, here the FIA comes and says; "No, you can't do that, we'll change the regulations."
The simplicity of Marc's posts are engaging. Talking direct to camera, just like a 1-2-1 chat. I'm a big Max fan. Phenomenal talent in many ways similar to Ayrtons, win at all costs, unbelievable speed and super human talent. Only advisery is he needs to keep focused now he's not in a dominant car. Comments aren't always necessary. As for the drivers title. Didn't we all think at the start of the year Max would walk it again. Just loving the closeness of the competition and mix of most race winners. I share other comments here, Max will win his 4th title and Lando will push him, providing McLaren can get race strategies right,, and Oscar will become a stronger force in the second half of the year. Mercedes will be there too. (Whose made a wrong move to Ferrarri. See Lollipopman. ) And Ferrari may periodically challenge. We are in for a glorious end to the 2024 season. Bring it on. 😊
Really wish we could have a Formula Zero of some sort. Obviously not zero rules, but open it up for cool stuff like brake balance side/side or the DASS steering or whatever else has been 'banned' in the last 30 years that could make things really cool.
What do you think about Kym Illmans post about the Dutch grand prix and having patients in the pits,,the severely disabled blind employed in all companies and media in F1?
When a wheel is loaded braking is lowered, if you can design electronics to reduce braking would give you an advantage, I believe RedBull had a way to reduce braking on a loaded wheel, hence all 4 wheels would do different things, not illegal, but allowed in the regulations, loopholes are what every team looks for, not just RedBull. Piastri will overtake Norris by the end of the season, you can see that happen.
Bottas is trolling you bigtime 🙂 That R8 he's sitting next to, is a 10 year old model year. So Bottas is doing what Bottas does best these days - being a joker...
Whoever has exploited this loophole will next be working on how to introduce brake slippage on one side which won’t be against the rules because you have equal pressure on left and right but with some sort of clever engineering they will make a brake give a little bit of slip
Exactly! Piastri is learning quickly and getting stronger. Lando doesn't seem to have learned much in his five seasons. Although, I think what he has learned is that it takes more than just a fast car to be a WC.
Llando needs to buck his ideas up if he doesn't want Oscar to beat him. Look at how aggressive he was in Ginetta Juniors. Where has that gone? He can do it. I think he underestimated Oscar. Oscar will win WDC before Llando. Llando needs some additional tuition. Many of the F1 drivers have done thus in the past.
Totally agree Elvis. Mercedes can be a real spoiler for Norris/McLaren, taking away significant points in both championships in the last 4 races with a potential to take a bunch more away in the 2nd half of the season.
With the cost cap, and all the limits on cfd/wind tunnel time/fea time, there is no reason for the rules or FIA to be anywhere near this restrictive on the car, let alone changing the rules mid season
Hi Marc, I hope you are wrong about Valtery and Audi. Collapinto was terrific yesterday. He deserves a seat in F1!!!!!! LETS GET RID OF THE OLDIES LIKE DANIELL AND VALTERY. There are 3 youngster who deserve a place.!! Greetings Henk from Holland
Mark I don't think this assymmetric breaking issue has anything to do with the rear end of the car. The differential can deal with optimised corner entry, mid corner and exit parameters. However Vestap. has demonstrated an almost uncanny ability to trail brake into most types of corner without locking the inside front wheel and it has been obvious for quite some time. With Adrian N leaving and Jonathan W plus the potential for whistle blowing should Perez be thrown out. I think they started to get uneasy about getting found out.
The outcome of that clash in Austria may be far more important than anyone realised at the time. Had Max not put Lando out, and they finished 1-2, the 78 point gap would be 61 points.. and had that been the case, I think the team would probably also have acquiesed on their team orders in Hungary, so the gap would then be 54pts.
Makes quite a lot of of sense... Remember Ferrari's fuel flow shenanigans in 2020? Forced the FIA to clarify the rules, Ferrari paid an undisclosed sum to keep it under wraps and their performance fell off a cliff. Fast forward to 2024, Red Bull fiddled with the brakes, forced the FIA to "clarify" the rules. To show some contrition, Red Bull let their Chief Technical Officer, who is responsible for such trickery, "announce his departure" and since then Verstappen has only won in Montreal (because Merc and McLaren bottled it) and in Imola (a race which had better not lasted a lap or two longer). 😉
Oh my F'ing god..... Lando would need Max to have 3 DNFs to have a chance, just stop with the nonsense already. McLaren could win the Constructors, but Lando wont even come close to the drivers championship.
Not necessarily 1 dnf or a a few low points finishes & Norris wins (unlikely) he could possibly do it. But it’s Verstappen, did you know he’s only finished outside the points once on pure pace since 2016.
Not really. Remember the rules state the maximum brake pressure applied must be even side to side, but not how fast the pressure is released. That would create a yawing moment to help turn in… Max’s retirement in Melbourne with the right rear brake sticking on, which would be the favoured side, and the way Red Bull totally downplayed it, makes me suspicious.
Running different break pressures was not cheating, but the new rule now means anyone doing it beyond this point will be cheating. When it comes to racing rules, teams pay close attention to what those rules DO NOT say. Because that is where you can do things explicitly not mentioned and gain an advantage. When that advantage is too great, FIA will amend the rules to explicitly stop teams from using whatever it was that gave them the advantage.
In my research, I found an article that stated that after Australia, the FIA investigated Max’s RedBull. You know, the one which had its brake catch fire and put him out of the race only a few laps in! They, allegedly discovered the inertia valve and deemed it illegal. They were told to remove that and then the rules change happened a couple weeks later. Here’s the real question: did RB have this in 2023 and 2022 as well? I’ll bet the answer is yes! More asterisks next to Max’s championships!!!
I'm inclined to agree, with that it was always illegal to manipulate the force of the pads on discs left to right within the single system. The addition to the regulations was added to give a get out and prevent a scandal. (It's gone from being illegal to being clever with the addition, make it grey and muddy the waters that's what I see) article 11.1.2 upto 11.4 seemed to make the alleged design illegal. As the power to do the work was gravity. 11.4.1 would also mean if the brakes were pressed during a corner it would be illegal. Only pressing the brakes before the corner would ever be feasible, but then the gravity system would be impacting on modulation ( to me modulation works in all directions brakes going on and coming off)
Imagine if McLaren got constructors or drivers tittle as a privateer (Team using Mercedes engine or parts from another team) I think in the next few years we will see other privateers like Williams move up. We have seen Williams go from the front to the back and now go forward. Allbon will love having a driver like Saintz who can keep up with him.
If the FIA knows which part on the car has this effect on the brakes they could look back and see how many years it has been on the car. Max has had an ability to make corners under braking noone else could do for quite a few years. Only Newey knows!
Good piece , I dont however see the point in banning braking /steering assistance , it all has a limit of development, and now we have budget caps then let them do it . Road cars have it! Teams can decide whether they want to sacrifice some aero for some clever other stuff . They should also allow 5 days testing a year only in europe and all teams must attend and allow spectators. Just my view of course . Lots of smoke and mirrors in f1 . At least allow the teams to be creative
One way to look at it but another is by banning this stuff it makes teams look at developing new technology that does the same thing which in turn makes its way into our road cars
@@knight2425 I'd have agreed 30 years ago but now even trucks carry more advanced technology than f1 cars . F1 has more in common with fighter jets than it does with production cars , although I suppose weight now is relative considering the kilos adorned by both f1 and road cars these days .
@@maverickgoose3824 It’s not so much new technology I’m on about but the refinement of technology we already have like traction control for instance, it got outlawed but teams still found ways around it and some of that finds its way into refining the technology we have in our cars
Am I missing something? 11.1.2 of the regs shown in black text and the original rule states that each brake system circuit (front circuit and rear circuit) the forces applied to the brake pads are the same magnitude and act as opposing pairs on a given brake disc. If any team used asymmetric braking system they have broken this rule and are cheating. No need to clarify the rules with the pink text. The original rule is clear - Forces applied to brake pads are the same magnitude?
@@tomgregory5814 as much as I dislike Max's dirty battle style, the car wasn't illegal until the rule changed. The loophole is using the regeneration system, which wasn't specified before. This meant the brake pressure from pedal all the way to joining the regeneration system was equal. At least, this is what I understand for now. Still a lot of pieces missing
It's strange how there isn't much talk if any about Max scoring the most points in the last 8 races despite not driving the dominant car bcz that shows a lot on how the driver's championship could pan out.
Regulatory body FIA would appear to be involved in a scandal of some kind because they are clearly hiding something to save their reputation. Perhaps they need further investigation by an external body to restore confidence in the organisation by removing the offending individuals
Explains why RB suddenly dropped pace and can’t seem to win anymore. Somewhat surprised at why other teams have not taken this to the FIA? Are they using this illegal device also? But why did the FIA wait this long to “clarify” the rules? As pointed out, the FIA inspect and certify every part going on an F1 car, so the FIA must have known about this a long time ago and “let it ride” in order to favor a different constructor and driver so as to promote change and F1 fan interest. So basically the FIA dictate what teams are going to win each season by overlooking rules as they see fit.
But have they dropped pace tho? Have you checked the data against last year as well as the first few races of this year to affirm this? Or is it simply that McLaren and Mercedes have found pace? If the Redbull has so significantly "fallen off a cliff" as so many are saying, they would not still be contesting pole every weekend. If Max can't qualify higher than 4th this weekend then I'll be convinced.
@@suitandtie2251 If you want an example, look at the Hungarian GP where Max locked up all 4's trying to pass Hamilton ... that clearly demonstrated the lack of asymmetric braking torques as RB were forced to remove it. In fact, compare this seasons races prior to the removal of RB asymmetric braking and you'll see that Max hardly ever locked up a wheel, but when the device was removed Max is locking wheels all the time and on the radio complaining about brakes and tire wear. BECAUSE, with asymmetric braking your tire wear will be MUCH lower due to optimal 4 corner braking efficiency where no single wheel is being over stressed. Without asymmetric braking tires will wear faster as they experience uneven loads.
@@robainscough It's amazing how someone can speak with such conviction about something they know precisely nothing about, save for some rumors online. The FIA implicitly said that NO team was employing such a system. yet somehow you equated Max locking up a wheel into Turn one to an assymetrical braking technique that was discovered and removed. Unbelievable
There was no loophole! Nothing that was prohibited in the earlier verbiage was then prohibited in the added words. 11.1.1 defined the front and rear brake circuit. 11.1.2 required the pressure be equal across each circuit. The new wording DOES NOTHING but give some cover to the team or teams that were cheating. Any car that employed an illegal asymmetric brake mechanism on the track for a sprint or race must have their cars DSQ'd for those events. Hopefully, no cars have but if they have, take those points away. Is that the missus - red hair, blue shirt - in the window at ~8:40?
I have consistently thought that the primary reason for Red Bulls seeming decline is their focus on next year and the year after. They broke all the records last year, this year Max is has enough lead and a good enough car to easily take the championship. That way Red Bull will be ahead of the curve again, as everyone else is still developing current cars and can't be investing as much in the future. As for the constructor's championship, I have no idea. They kept Sergio for a reason, hopefully a reason that may cost them this year's constructors.
RB didn’t ‘drop off’ (faster than last year still) but more likely that others who all of a sudden closed the gap real quick are using it (McLaren and Merc). Their fast progress is more remarkable than RBs dropoff which actually isn’t a dropoff but still a diminishing return gain.
wouldnt it be just as logical that one of the teams that made huge steps would be the culprit of running such a system..? also wouldnt redbull have been running that hypothetical system until the loophole was closed ? so we wouldnt have even seen them run without it. so i dont really get or like the 'it must be or its likely red bull' theories. I think my first theory (teams making big steps with supposed grey area/illegal technology) is a whole lot more logical and needs least assumptions
because the theory makes the most sense with redbull; not just the drop of performance, but why the performance drops, such as brake bias and recent balance issues can all be explained by the specific changes in these rules. Additionally, rumors about red bull having to remove a part of their car already existed before this rule change. Helmut Marko also gave interviews where he mentioned recent issues such as brake bias, and hinted that they can't revert back to their earlier spec this season which "they would if they could"
@@luhiko5923 little to no negative attention has been given to red bulls peculiar development path from Frankenstein car hunchback car back to a rb19 evo in Hungary... And then running the Frankenstein car again in Belgium. To me that signifies a fiasco in car development, a big blunder. Weird isn't it that no such narrative is even spun that Adrian ducked it up.. when RB is basically running two cars with different Evo paths in a costcap era... And will probably ditch 'frank'... To go back to the old design..Thats a merc size duck up, a half year down the drain. I'd say that plays a bigger part than speculative brake system.
This really is the part of F1 I hate now. Is banning this clever innovation for safety, no. So why ban it, F1 is meant to be the pinnacle of motorsport it's part of what makes it interesting. In my opinion if it's safe and within the budget then go for it, that's what made F1 special in the past. We celebrate the F1 innovations like active suspension and the fiddle brake etc so why stop new innovation.
Fun fact: the Audi R8 Bottas was sitting next to is my friend's personal car here in California that they borrowed for a shoot. I can't divulge anymore than that. 😉
@@tonyroberts7481 - I was going to say he’s gone up in the world now he’s a famous tv celebrity, but he’s come down to earth (out of his treehouse….lol) We’ve been watching you that long Elvis…..we remember the tales from the treehouse, I even bought your book after hearing some of those stories
Were Red Bull the only ones with this or has another performance declined slightly since last year or the start of the season…..if it was only one team they would have had a quiet word to remove it, but if more than one team were doing it than it’s written in the rules…..
@@F1Elvis I love what you do... I just can't watch F1 ever again, it's like an American gong show all over again for the third time at least. Management has no clue ( or they do and the nonsense is deliberate) of how to simply run a fair and equal chance race. I'm sticking with rally!
Would, could? Mercedes strategically help Mclaren as their engine partner to beat RedBull in the constructors so they get another engine title and also deny RedBull the champion prize money?
They did it on the 31st of July which coincided with the last four races a drop in performance of Red Bull. If you read the they already mentions the brakes it didn't need clarifying. it's not a loo. It's not a grey area it's cheating It might of been on for the last two years. Watch this UA-camr #F1xed
Pretty obvious someone was cheating or f1 would not modify/ clarify the rule, obviously speculation is red bill is the team but f1 will never disclose who , Ferrari were caught on their engine system and that was never made public. If the other teams can prove it was being used then f1 needs to severely penalize that team.
Doesn't it seem to hint that F1 is somewhat rigged with a bias for Max if it is the case that the Red Bull was using some sort of braking device that gave their car an advantage of what looks to be about .5 of a second a lap in performance that has dropped off, most notably in the slow/medium speed corners? If they were using a device to illegally do exactly what the regulations said before the new redundant sentence was added, doesn't it make sense that they should be penalized and have points subtracted from the races where they were using the illegal device? It seems once again F1 is letting a top team get away with cheating and gaining an unfair advantage in the driver's championship.
Indoor olive tree? Ooh, fancy!
Putting that macca f1 and discovery channel money to good use!!😂😂
I know. Its beautiful
Is he wearing an olive costume, or is that just a stupid hat?
@@Chris-bm5qd:)) next episode, perhaps he’ll do it whilst sitting in the tree! :)
There wasn’t a loophole, the existing regulation was already very clear. Also 11.1.4 is very clear that the changes to the braking system must be operated by the driver. If someone was using an automatic device that operated under g-force, then it wasn’t driver operated. Finally I was under the impression that all teams had to gain approval of any non-spec parts used on the car prior to using them. The braking system is effectively a spec part delivered Brembo so was this device approved by the FIA?
Pretty sure Brembo only supply what mounted on the axles and the teams design the rest. It may be this came about from a team that wanted to apply it and the FIA said no, hence the clarification.
@@paulwood6729but you could also say "were hiding it" instead of wanted to apply it.
@@planet_oith Yep, true.
@@paulwood6729to be fair, I think this is one of the ways teams can call out other teams’ potential cheats without saying that they are actually cheating, by asking for clarifications with existing regs
Was it clear that it wasn't allowed that the driver changed brake bias left/right?
I think Max has got it in the bag as Norris isn't quite ready to challenge for championship yet, though next year could be a very different story. However, it could be argued that McLaren are now favourites for the constructors as it's effectively Norris & Piastri vs just Max for any meaningful points.
Well he did until the brake issues dropped RB down to 3rd class in races
@@bazwilliams6484 RedBull are equal first, or at worst, second atm. Don't forget, that last time out at Spa Max was much quicker than everyone else, the only reason he didn't win was due to the grid penalty. But it'll be interesting to see where RedBull are next season.
If Hamilton wins in Zandvoort, he’ll be in contention for the WDC
next year McLaren already have their number 1 driver in Piastri
Hey there brother, it great to see you I want to say back but maybe it just that I've been MIA anyway I'll be tuning back in to your channel. Have a outstanding day.
I'm getting right into elvis and his f1 bits, keep em coming lad.👌
I never knew my grandfathers 1949 Ford 8n tractor was fitted with asymmetrical braking. There were two brake pedals, one for each rear wheel. :)
Your best in a while, simple explanation with a bit of technical knowledge and in an environment that is not wind affected.🥳
Is the speculated Red Bull inertial valve particularly expensive, dangerous, hard to copy, against the spirit of F1 etc.? Just sometimes I struggle to understand why the FIA bans some innovations like this and not others
Completely about being against the spirit of the rules. It is probably cheap, safe and easy to copy, just out of the box idea that gives slight advantage while cornering.
Cause it's always been against the rules & the wider meaning? This is a much more clear shut case than DAS & has far bigger consequences. If you read the new clause...it's pretty much repeating the same thing as what what was already in the rules with a few more words. It's not even a trick or loophole.
@@SelendekiHe didn’t say anyone was using it, can’t you read?
If no one was doing anything why clarify the rule by writing the same sentence twice 🤷♂️
@@Selendeki Yeah good one 🤣🤣🤣
This was unfortunate timing. The FIA announced that no teams were using asymmetric breaking at almost exactly the same time this video was released.
How convenient.
We do not believe them.
@@sadqqwwqeq4175 😂😂😂
True, true!
Where did they say this
so a variation of McLarens third pedal from a couple of decades ago, I thought any kind of asymmetric braking was throughly banned back then
Well, RB are cheaters... Why would you be surprised that they do this sort of thing?
You thought right. F1 and the governing body are such a joke. They should be disqualified from both championships
I think the loophole is the energy recovery system. If you read the old and new regs, the energy recovery's braking effect isn't targeted until the changes. They could create something like stability control by recovering only on one side during cornering.
@@jebidiahcarlyon3543 since recovery is on the engine that would mean a torque vectoring differential, which is illegal
@@IAmSomeTreyGuy if it isn't explicitly banned it is walking the fine line of grey area, which is the DNA of formula one
To me this fits up with Red Bull, Max had a brake failure on the right side in Melbourne, a few months ago there were rumors that the FIA had asked Red Bull to remove something from their car, and now the regulation clarification, plus their drop off in pace
That brake faillure had to do with the cooling duct not being secured properly, so it came loose and did not cool anymore
More like McLaren and Mercedes are cheating becaue Redbull isn't multiple teams?
It's surprising to me that this has become a story (because of peter windsor), but he says that Red Bull was forced to remove this system before Miami, because of regulation changes. But this regulation addition/clarification wasn't added until the start of the summer break. So for anyone doing a little bit of double-checking it is obvious that this isn't the reason for red bulls drop of pace since Miami.
It was an unnecessary clarification as the original wording says exactly the same as the clarification. It seems to have been added so people can say what you have just said, i.e. it has only just been added.
They changed it not because of the regulation changes but because of the behind-the-scenes talk with FIA to not make a scandal out of it. There were definitely some teams that caught to it after what happened to Max in Australia
@@martincday007 but the original wording is: "The brake system must be designed so that within each circuit, the forces applied to the brake pads are the same magnitude and act as opposing pairs on a given breke disc." You see ON A GIVEN BRAKE DISC. The rule was : every disc+pads should be in a given way, the given way wasnt equal force by disc it was equal force by pads on a give disc.
@@Shifftee Show your evidence of those claims.
@@LittleBigMediaCo RB’s drastic performance drop in only one race is the most firm evidence to those claims
That braking rule ain't in the NASCAR rule book. Side to side bias makes it much easier to turn. You can also do it with different brake-pad compounds.
Definitely more to it. But we're gonna be gaslit by the status quo with the old, 'nothing to see here folks, move along!." Yet their actions beg to differ. We've seen it before, it's just how F1 works. FIA catches you out or preemptively calls you out for something it can't prove but suspects you're doing. Gentlemen's agreement behind closed doors. Offically FIA/the teaam deny it, even other teams don't always speak out cause they know it's how the game works. In a way, the system has been proven to work in the past & no doubt there's more examples that never made the light of day. F1 teams are not shy, if they're not in the wrong they shout it from rooftops...especially Redbull.
Well said 👏 👏👏
... or RB were using this already since '22 ...... another possibility.
Or it isn’t RB, but mclaren and merc who all of a sudden are super competitive.
They never did
@@StevenQ74 .... says who ?
@@bjrnchrstn .... of course this is a possibility, but only one team has had a marked drop off !! Going on the evidence I can see, not facts .... I do not think the FIA is going to reveal who the "legal rule bender" is any way.
@@Selendeki - yes ?
Melbourne '23, Perez ran off multiple times in practice (well, more than usual...lol). When he went off again in qualifying, he said, a little cryptically, "it's the same problem again." Max also had issues in practice.
There have been several similar practice sessions that made me think RB was doing something funky with their brakes. No idea if it's related, but it would certainly make sense.
I suppose the easiest way to identify whether someone had been using the brakes in the way described would be to look at the braking data and look for the telltale application of brakes in acceleration zones
Can't wait for the second half of the season. I have a feeling it's going to be incredible.
Didn't another team at one point have a solid front axel to prevent inside wheel locking up?
Yes, Benetton/Renault or whatever they were called in their Jarno Trulli days had a differential gear between the two front wheels so that braking force went more to the loaded wheel than the unloaded inside wheel. It was quite heavy.
Cheers MP ... as ever, thanks for sharing another round of clear, concise and comprehensive insights from someone who can genuinely claim to be a subject matter expert ... good man
FIA really excel at 'trying' to keep up with the narrative. Always a day late. Love the watch!
I sort of dislike all these avenues to improve your car being curtailed. F1 is supposed to be the pinnacle of design, but all you ever hear from the FIA is all the things you aren't allowed to do. I understand there have to be limits to ensure the safety on and surrounding the circuit, but if limiting the teams is all you're going to do, put them all in spec cars and be done with it.
Agreed!
That’s one way to look at it but if the FIA didn’t introduce limits on things it would all be basic where as what this does is force engineers to look outside the square for new ideas on how to do the same thing which pushes the technology curve steeper
@@knight2425 Looking outside the box always happens, that's the only way to gain an advantage on the other teams.
@@transient_ Correct and some do it better than others, with the FIA limiting what teams can do it forces them to be more creative and smarter on what they do which is why it’s the pinnacle of motorsport
@@knight2425 The FIA artificially limits the innovation and if the teams come up with something useful, here the FIA comes and says; "No, you can't do that, we'll change the regulations."
Not just on throttle corner exit surely helps turn the car in also
Absolutely. 👍
In hungry max was saying car wont turn with brake bias minus 6 to rear.
The simplicity of Marc's posts are engaging. Talking direct to camera, just like a 1-2-1 chat. I'm a big Max fan. Phenomenal talent in many ways similar to Ayrtons, win at all costs, unbelievable speed and super human talent. Only advisery is he needs to keep focused now he's not in a dominant car. Comments aren't always necessary. As for the drivers title. Didn't we all think at the start of the year Max would walk it again. Just loving the closeness of the competition and mix of most race winners. I share other comments here, Max will win his 4th title and Lando will push him, providing McLaren can get race strategies right,, and Oscar will become a stronger force in the second half of the year. Mercedes will be there too. (Whose made a wrong move to Ferrarri. See Lollipopman. ) And Ferrari may periodically challenge. We are in for a glorious end to the 2024 season. Bring it on. 😊
👊
Really wish we could have a Formula Zero of some sort. Obviously not zero rules, but open it up for cool stuff like brake balance side/side or the DASS steering or whatever else has been 'banned' in the last 30 years that could make things really cool.
Yes, but also no. It would be cool, but I think the cars would get too fast and hence too dangerous.
I agree, the cost cap keeps spending under control now...
Could it really be passive as it would be so sensitive. As you highlight Newey has always been fascinated by braking systems
What do you think about Kym Illmans post about the Dutch grand prix and having patients in the pits,,the severely disabled blind employed in all companies and media in F1?
Anyone know what brand his watch is ?
It's an Omologato. 👍
One race near the end of last season there was a radio message where max said are we using the high speed ?
When a wheel is loaded braking is lowered, if you can design electronics to reduce braking would give you an advantage, I believe RedBull had a way to reduce braking on a loaded wheel, hence all 4 wheels would do different things, not illegal, but allowed in the regulations, loopholes are what every team looks for, not just RedBull. Piastri will overtake Norris by the end of the season, you can see that happen.
Bottas is trolling you bigtime 🙂
That R8 he's sitting next to, is a 10 year old model year. So Bottas is doing what Bottas does best these days - being a joker...
Whoever has exploited this loophole will next be working on how to introduce brake slippage on one side which won’t be against the rules because you have equal pressure on left and right but with some sort of clever engineering they will make a brake give a little bit of slip
Thanks Marc. And thanks for Seedstream, which has become my news hub for F1.
that brake system could be very good in a FWD car !
Love the new watch ❤
Lando's biggest problem is Piastri.....only 32 points adrift now.
Exactly! Piastri is learning quickly and getting stronger. Lando doesn't seem to have learned much in his five seasons. Although, I think what he has learned is that it takes more than just a fast car to be a WC.
Llando needs to buck his ideas up if he doesn't want Oscar to beat him. Look at how aggressive he was in Ginetta Juniors. Where has that gone? He can do it. I think he underestimated Oscar. Oscar will win WDC before Llando. Llando needs some additional tuition. Many of the F1 drivers have done thus in the past.
Totally agree Elvis. Mercedes can be a real spoiler for Norris/McLaren, taking away significant points in both championships in the last 4 races with a potential to take a bunch more away in the 2nd half of the season.
One factor that both you and Marc failed to mention is the Piastri factor. He has the ability to take points away from them all
Another factor could also be that Mercedes help Their customer team if needs be to secure a Mercedes powered championship
One thing is certain - it is not mercedes... if it was FIA would say that is banned from next year... like asymmetrical steering
With the cost cap, and all the limits on cfd/wind tunnel time/fea time, there is no reason for the rules or FIA to be anywhere near this restrictive on the car, let alone changing the rules mid season
No loophole…agreed. Why are the F1 some of the influencer type u-tubers (I.e. non-technical) all claiming a loophole exists. Fishy
Hi Marc,
I hope you are wrong about Valtery and Audi. Collapinto was terrific yesterday. He deserves a seat in F1!!!!!! LETS GET RID OF THE OLDIES LIKE DANIELL AND VALTERY. There are 3 youngster who deserve a place.!!
Greetings Henk from Holland
It looks more and more like it will be a youngster now...
Nice watch! anyone know the brand?
Yes
@@msvanveen cool
It's an Omologato 👍
@@F1Elvis Thanks Brother!
Mark I don't think this assymmetric breaking issue has anything to do with the rear end of the car. The differential can deal with optimised corner entry, mid corner and exit parameters. However Vestap. has demonstrated an almost uncanny ability to trail brake into most types of corner without locking the inside front wheel and it has been obvious for quite some time. With Adrian N leaving and Jonathan W plus the potential for whistle blowing should Perez be thrown out. I think they started to get uneasy about getting found out.
The outcome of that clash in Austria may be far more important than anyone realised at the time. Had Max not put Lando out, and they finished 1-2, the 78 point gap would be 61 points.. and had that been the case, I think the team would probably also have acquiesed on their team orders in Hungary, so the gap would then be 54pts.
Yea yea if my mom had balls ...........
Makes quite a lot of of sense... Remember Ferrari's fuel flow shenanigans in 2020? Forced the FIA to clarify the rules, Ferrari paid an undisclosed sum to keep it under wraps and their performance fell off a cliff. Fast forward to 2024, Red Bull fiddled with the brakes, forced the FIA to "clarify" the rules. To show some contrition, Red Bull let their Chief Technical Officer, who is responsible for such trickery, "announce his departure" and since then Verstappen has only won in Montreal (because Merc and McLaren bottled it) and in Imola (a race which had better not lasted a lap or two longer). 😉
I like Botas.
He's one of the best wingmen in F1. My opinion.
Lando is saying, he wants to be named the teams number 1 driver.
Oh my F'ing god..... Lando would need Max to have 3 DNFs to have a chance, just stop with the nonsense already. McLaren could win the Constructors, but Lando wont even come close to the drivers championship.
Not necessarily 1 dnf or a a few low points finishes & Norris wins (unlikely) he could possibly do it. But it’s Verstappen, did you know he’s only finished outside the points once on pure pace since 2016.
Lando has won one race in six years all of a sudden his going to win all this races to be world champion really? People need to get off the choof
What's going on with that Omologato watch product positioning? 😂
Nice dial though
It's just my watch....always positioned on my wrist! 😊
May be is Valteri just saying "ey Audi, I would like to stay in the Circus... Doesn't I look geat in your cars?"
That's a bold move if he ends up somewhere else?
Utter nonsense regarding the brake system. FIA already explained why they did it.
Not really.
Remember the rules state the maximum brake pressure applied must be even side to side, but not how fast the pressure is released. That would create a yawing moment to help turn in…
Max’s retirement in Melbourne with the right rear brake sticking on, which would be the favoured side, and the way Red Bull totally downplayed it, makes me suspicious.
Running different break pressures was not cheating, but the new rule now means anyone doing it beyond this point will be cheating. When it comes to racing rules, teams pay close attention to what those rules DO NOT say. Because that is where you can do things explicitly not mentioned and gain an advantage. When that advantage is too great, FIA will amend the rules to explicitly stop teams from using whatever it was that gave them the advantage.
Absolutely, no one said they were cheating?
@@F1Elvis no, but the distinction needs to Va be made because non-RBR fans may conclude that it was cheating, but it wasn’t. It was what all teams do.
In my research, I found an article that stated that after Australia, the FIA investigated Max’s RedBull. You know, the one which had its brake catch fire and put him out of the race only a few laps in! They, allegedly discovered the inertia valve and deemed it illegal. They were told to remove that and then the rules change happened a couple weeks later. Here’s the real question: did RB have this in 2023 and 2022 as well? I’ll bet the answer is yes! More asterisks next to Max’s championships!!!
It wouldn't have been illegal until the rules were changed recently
I'm inclined to agree, with that it was always illegal to manipulate the force of the pads on discs left to right within the single system.
The addition to the regulations was added to give a get out and prevent a scandal. (It's gone from being illegal to being clever with the addition, make it grey and muddy the waters that's what I see)
article 11.1.2 upto 11.4 seemed to make the alleged design illegal.
As the power to do the work was gravity.
11.4.1 would also mean if the brakes were pressed during a corner it would be illegal.
Only pressing the brakes before the corner would ever be feasible, but then the gravity system would be impacting on modulation ( to me modulation works in all directions brakes going on and coming off)
Source article please
@@4Jobert8 I got my information from FIA Technical regs issue 4 published 13 Feb 2024. This issue is pre the new line added for braking
@@F1Elvis incorrect
Is your app available in the US
Imagine if McLaren got constructors or drivers tittle as a privateer (Team using Mercedes engine or parts from another team) I think in the next few years we will see other privateers like Williams move up. We have seen Williams go from the front to the back and now go forward. Allbon will love having a driver like Saintz who can keep up with him.
If the FIA knows which part on the car has this effect on the brakes they could look back and see how many years it has been on the car. Max has had an ability to make corners under braking noone else could do for quite a few years. Only Newey knows!
Plus max has complained alot about break problems over the last 3-5 races
Deflection….Don't look here look over there !!
Sorry I was unable to follow what you were saying, just admiring the beautiful watch.. 🤤
Good piece , I dont however see the point in banning braking /steering assistance , it all has a limit of development, and now we have budget caps then let them do it . Road cars have it! Teams can decide whether they want to sacrifice some aero for some clever other stuff . They should also allow 5 days testing a year only in europe and all teams must attend and allow spectators. Just my view of course . Lots of smoke and mirrors in f1 . At least allow the teams to be creative
I've been saying this for years! 👍
One way to look at it but another is by banning this stuff it makes teams look at developing new technology that does the same thing which in turn makes its way into our road cars
@@knight2425 I'd have agreed 30 years ago but now even trucks carry more advanced technology than f1 cars . F1 has more in common with fighter jets than it does with production cars , although I suppose weight now is relative considering the kilos adorned by both f1 and road cars these days .
@@maverickgoose3824 It’s not so much new technology I’m on about but the refinement of technology we already have like traction control for instance, it got outlawed but teams still found ways around it and some of that finds its way into refining the technology we have in our cars
Hey Marc, good video. Also, could you please stop telling me that we've made changes to the ERS system this year please!!
Am I missing something? 11.1.2 of the regs shown in black text and the original rule states that each brake system circuit (front circuit and rear circuit) the forces applied to the brake pads are the same magnitude and act as opposing pairs on a given brake disc. If any team used asymmetric braking system they have broken this rule and are cheating. No need to clarify the rules with the pink text. The original rule is clear - Forces applied to brake pads are the same magnitude?
Exactly. Should be punishment for this cheat going back to 2022. By by 3 titles Max!!
@@tomgregory5814 as much as I dislike Max's dirty battle style, the car wasn't illegal until the rule changed.
The loophole is using the regeneration system, which wasn't specified before. This meant the brake pressure from pedal all the way to joining the regeneration system was equal.
At least, this is what I understand for now. Still a lot of pieces missing
It's strange how there isn't much talk if any about Max scoring the most points in the last 8 races despite not driving the dominant car bcz that shows a lot on how the driver's championship could pan out.
Regulatory body FIA would appear to be involved in a scandal of some kind because they are clearly hiding something to save their reputation.
Perhaps they need further investigation by an external body to restore confidence in the organisation by removing the offending individuals
Yeah. It's fine the app. Slot of information in the app
He will be with sauber again next year
What's the problem with asymmetric braking? Why is it being banned?
I don't see why there should be a problem with it...
Explains why RB suddenly dropped pace and can’t seem to win anymore. Somewhat surprised at why other teams have not taken this to the FIA? Are they using this illegal device also? But why did the FIA wait this long to “clarify” the rules? As pointed out, the FIA inspect and certify every part going on an F1 car, so the FIA must have known about this a long time ago and “let it ride” in order to favor a different constructor and driver so as to promote change and F1 fan interest. So basically the FIA dictate what teams are going to win each season by overlooking rules as they see fit.
But have they dropped pace tho? Have you checked the data against last year as well as the first few races of this year to affirm this? Or is it simply that McLaren and Mercedes have found pace? If the Redbull has so significantly "fallen off a cliff" as so many are saying, they would not still be contesting pole every weekend. If Max can't qualify higher than 4th this weekend then I'll be convinced.
@@suitandtie2251 If you want an example, look at the Hungarian GP where Max locked up all 4's trying to pass Hamilton ... that clearly demonstrated the lack of asymmetric braking torques as RB were forced to remove it. In fact, compare this seasons races prior to the removal of RB asymmetric braking and you'll see that Max hardly ever locked up a wheel, but when the device was removed Max is locking wheels all the time and on the radio complaining about brakes and tire wear. BECAUSE, with asymmetric braking your tire wear will be MUCH lower due to optimal 4 corner braking efficiency where no single wheel is being over stressed. Without asymmetric braking tires will wear faster as they experience uneven loads.
@@robainscough It's amazing how someone can speak with such conviction about something they know precisely nothing about, save for some rumors online. The FIA implicitly said that NO team was employing such a system. yet somehow you equated Max locking up a wheel into Turn one to an assymetrical braking technique that was discovered and removed. Unbelievable
There was no loophole! Nothing that was prohibited in the earlier verbiage was then prohibited in the added words.
11.1.1 defined the front and rear brake circuit. 11.1.2 required the pressure be equal across each circuit. The new wording DOES NOTHING but give some cover to the team or teams that were cheating.
Any car that employed an illegal asymmetric brake mechanism on the track for a sprint or race must have their cars DSQ'd for those events. Hopefully, no cars have but if they have, take those points away.
Is that the missus - red hair, blue shirt - in the window at ~8:40?
Nah, I think thats Charlie Dimmock..
I have consistently thought that the primary reason for Red Bulls seeming decline is their focus on next year and the year after.
They broke all the records last year, this year Max is has enough lead and a good enough car to easily take the championship.
That way Red Bull will be ahead of the curve again, as everyone else is still developing current cars and can't be investing as much in the future.
As for the constructor's championship, I have no idea. They kept Sergio for a reason, hopefully a reason that may cost them this year's constructors.
Or it is that McLaren and Merc ger close because THEY implemented that brakingsystem.
@@bjrnchrstn
Hmm, maybe.
How about a different car concept, all the other teams copied the RB 19, which F1 are you watching?
@@4Jobert8
What do you mean?
RB didn’t ‘drop off’ (faster than last year still) but more likely that others who all of a sudden closed the gap real quick are using it (McLaren and Merc).
Their fast progress is more remarkable than RBs dropoff which actually isn’t a dropoff but still a diminishing return gain.
2 teams that has dropped off in performance likely... Ferrari as well but we will know if it's also Maclaren in a few days as well
It is a bit of a coincidence that Red bull have suddenly dropped off after this rule change
wouldnt it be just as logical that one of the teams that made huge steps would be the culprit of running such a system..?
also wouldnt redbull have been running that hypothetical system until the loophole was closed ? so we wouldnt have even seen them run without it.
so i dont really get or like the 'it must be or its likely red bull' theories. I think my first theory (teams making big steps with supposed grey area/illegal technology) is a whole lot more logical and needs least assumptions
because the theory makes the most sense with redbull; not just the drop of performance, but why the performance drops, such as brake bias and recent balance issues can all be explained by the specific changes in these rules.
Additionally, rumors about red bull having to remove a part of their car already existed before this rule change. Helmut Marko also gave interviews where he mentioned recent issues such as brake bias, and hinted that they can't revert back to their earlier spec this season which "they would if they could"
@@luhiko5923 little to no negative attention has been given to red bulls peculiar development path from Frankenstein car hunchback car back to a rb19 evo in Hungary... And then running the Frankenstein car again in Belgium.
To me that signifies a fiasco in car development, a big blunder. Weird isn't it that no such narrative is even spun that Adrian ducked it up.. when RB is basically running two cars with different Evo paths in a costcap era... And will probably ditch 'frank'... To go back to the old design..Thats a merc size duck up, a half year down the drain.
I'd say that plays a bigger part than speculative brake system.
Or, maybe it's Valtteri telling Audi, I want to stay!
Could be?
Have Sauber been kept from saying anything about Bottas as… summer break rules?
This really is the part of F1 I hate now. Is banning this clever innovation for safety, no. So why ban it, F1 is meant to be the pinnacle of motorsport it's part of what makes it interesting.
In my opinion if it's safe and within the budget then go for it, that's what made F1 special in the past. We celebrate the F1 innovations like active suspension and the fiddle brake etc so why stop new innovation.
I totally agree. 👍
Fun fact: the Audi R8 Bottas was sitting next to is my friend's personal car here in California that they borrowed for a shoot. I can't divulge anymore than that. 😉
It’s totally true. I’m his friend’s other friend and I was in the frunk during the photo shoot. Naked.
@@jameskear6155 ha. 🤡🤡
More F1 info sat next to the housetree…….😂
He’s gone posh now he’s hanging around with Mike, no more Treehouse for Elvis…..😂
I miss the treehouse. Must be book money. 😂😂😂
@@tonyroberts7481 - I was going to say he’s gone up in the world now he’s a famous tv celebrity, but he’s come down to earth (out of his treehouse….lol)
We’ve been watching you that long Elvis…..we remember the tales from the treehouse, I even bought your book after hearing some of those stories
Since there is going to be such a complete overhaul of the regulations, shouldn't the powers that be increase the spending limit for 2025?
According to Lando you should win if you have the fastest car so let’s see it Mr Norris
McLaren will rue the chances they are missing now to help Lando win this year's WDC.
Were Red Bull the only ones with this or has another performance declined slightly since last year or the start of the season…..if it was only one team they would have had a quiet word to remove it, but if more than one team were doing it than it’s written in the rules…..
Wooly hat? In the middle of Summer? Are you a reptile or something?
Question… so a rule was changed. Is that it?
Well, some new wording added...
Quailty app Marc.
👍
Ferrari found nothing the merc driven engines did so this is normal in F1.
Seedstream is full of storeis, aka gossips lol
The main problem will be that Hamilton who everyone knows brakes the latest will win using his hammer time again like Silverstone
Red Bull cheating again. If it's not the spending cap it's a technical misuse. It amazes me how RB are the first to complain and report other teams.
I've checked out some of the data comparisons of Max to other drivers. Currently, Max is NOT the best breaker in the field.
Him and Lewis break late everyone else doesn't
Last episode for me...Well unless you start following fair and true racing. There is simply too much nonsense and I now positive it will not end.
???
@@F1Elvis I love what you do... I just can't watch F1 ever again, it's like an American gong show all over again for the third time at least. Management has no clue ( or they do and the nonsense is deliberate) of how to simply run a fair and equal chance race. I'm sticking with rally!
It’s ok mr Priestly your pit pass is safe after you just danced around this questionable “extra part” on the RB without saying anything.
RB dominance last year was bcz they were using slightly shorter tracks. This should definitely be outlawed in the sporting regs.
Just stop it
Is this a video about Formula 1 or Seedstream?
Would, could? Mercedes strategically help Mclaren as their engine partner to beat RedBull in the constructors so they get another engine title and also deny RedBull the champion prize money?
They did it on the 31st of July which coincided with the last four races a drop in performance of Red Bull. If you read the they already mentions the brakes it didn't need clarifying. it's not a loo. It's not a grey area it's cheating It might of been on for the last two years. Watch this UA-camr #F1xed
Pretty obvious someone was cheating or f1 would not modify/ clarify the rule, obviously speculation is red bill is the team but f1 will never disclose who , Ferrari were caught on their engine system and that was never made public. If the other teams can prove it was being used then f1 needs to severely penalize that team.
But it wasn't illegal? It would be if someone did it now, but not before that.
Asymmetrical braking was banned years ago …it’s irrelevant how you get the feature …it’s banned!
Another nail in the f1 credibility coffin!
Doesn't it seem to hint that F1 is somewhat rigged with a bias for Max if it is the case that the Red Bull was using some sort of braking device that gave their car an advantage of what looks to be about .5 of a second a lap in performance that has dropped off, most notably in the slow/medium speed corners? If they were using a device to illegally do exactly what the regulations said before the new redundant sentence was added, doesn't it make sense that they should be penalized and have points subtracted from the races where they were using the illegal device? It seems once again F1 is letting a top team get away with cheating and gaining an unfair advantage in the driver's championship.
It was perfectly legal until they changed the rules a few weeks ago
Sorry to say this, Marc...but around the 8:33 mark of your video, your house got robbed. Twice
😂