Bungie double downs on the WINNOWER with NEW message! | Myelin Games
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- Опубліковано 1 жов 2024
- The weekly reset updated the lore tab for the ship Nacre, which appears to be a message from the Winnower. Are we back to thinking that the Winnower wrote the Unveiling book? Here we go again!
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Bungie double downs on the WINNOWER with NEW message! | Myelin Games
• Bungie double downs on... - Ігри
"Hello Guardians, and Aztecross" killed me
He ranks below us
Imagine Aztecross doesn’t actually make a reaction video to this
on god bro i started coughing and was about to comment the same thing
Was just about to comment this, you beat me to it I’m late.
He TRULY knows his audience
The Gardener: My light shall shine bright apon thee, my beloved, my children!
The Winnower: What's up boys!
The winnower is out here talking like a shitposter, just like our boy Death in Castlevania.
In my mind, the end of the Light and Dark saga did not mean an end to the things pertaining to the Light and Darkness. It was an end to the conflict of Light and Dark started by the witness.
I don’t think the Winnower will be an antagonist. As it stated in this lore tab, whether you fight for the light or the Darkness you are making its choice.
I agree, in the end It's still a game to it. It was against the adding to the rules but it's accepted the rules now and now It want to see how it plays out.
That's how I interpreted as well. Pretty cool to have a cosmic god be so interested in you and just wanna chat and observe.
@@TeaRex12 pretty sure after being alive so long, they are looking for any entertainment.
@@yusefwebb9727 I'd actually go a step further.
i think the winnower has changed it's mind about the changes to the rules. It still thinks that it's logic will win, that it's pattern will become dominant, but no longer does it think that the changes will only produce something awful in the time before victory. It thinks what will be produced in the meantime will be interesting and magnificent.
The only thing it doesn't seem to like is what happened when it tried to take an active antagonistic role, when it made the first knife. The Guardian and Oryx are magnificent, the Vex are appreciated. But the Witness is insulted.
Same. It's symbolically over since we've combined light and dark into harmony now. That doesn't mean light and dark doesn't still exist, just that they aren't in conflict anymore.
It don’t think this is setting the winnowed up as an antagonist. Rather, this just confirms that the winnower is still out there as a competing philosophy. Parts of the text seem to indicate it has no interest in directly confronting us, as it believes its preferred outcome is inevitable either way.
My personal theory is that the winnower now no longer feels the need to be an antagonist, not even to the Traveler. (edit)
It did at first, it made the Witness. And then it was terribly disappointed, disgusted, or disturbed by what the witness did as a knife to be used against the Traveler.
This being isn't the angry and mono-focused being that was shown in the entries that relate to the witness and the time before. Its causal, relaxed, and interested in talking and sharing experience. It talks much more positively about everything else, even the working of the light/gardener/traveler, than it does of the witness and its ideas.
Like you said, it's not interested in being antagonist, and no need for it. So why not enjoy what this change allowed it to experience while it can.
@@markmittelbach7975now no longer* (?)
If so, then I like your theory and explanation
@@dursa8314 that's what I'd meant, edited to fix.
“Welcome back guardians and Aztecross” 💀
They are not adding another darkness based enemy, the winnower himself says it "in darkness or light, someone is always making my choice", the entire point of TFS is the recognition that Light and Darkness are not different, the winnower is not a big bad, it will never be, The Witness also said "the hand can´t tell the knife what shape to carve", the winnower doesn't have that much agency in the universe, it's an idea.
The only way I could think that the Winnower could be implemented, but still not be part of the light and dark saga is either they become an ally or we ditch the idea of intrinsic ‘good’ and ‘bad’, ‘light’ and ‘dark’, which was hinted at in this new lore tab.
We’ve had, over several years since beyond light, the idea that there isn’t necessarily a good or bad power, but it’s the one who wields the power that decides how they act. The player character and Zavala are key examples of that, with both being intrinsically good, but using ‘darkness’ abilities. It’s also like the idea that whilst you are the hero of your own story, you might be someone else’s villain. It’s about perspective.
Despite being an absolute stereotype of a universe ending villain, the Witness had their own perspective on their goal, despite how warped it was, and therefore they saw anyone that resisted the Final Shape as being ungrateful. The Winnower isn’t necessarily the bad guy, at least not in the traditional sense. Like the Witness, like Oryx, the Winnower’s perspective is warped by their ideology. They believe (correct me if I’m wrong), that you need to prove your right to continued existence through your strength and your cunning. In a way it’s very similar to the saying ‘might makes right’, it’s also similar to the Sword Logic of the Hive, but I think it differentiates in a very big way in my opinion, in a way that might change whether we face the Winnower as an ally or foe.
Whilst the Hive try to exemplify personal strength and the strength of a single sword, often disregarding what builds up that strength like faction size, I believe the Winnower’s idea is a bit wider in perspective. For example, the Sword Logic runs counter to the Bomb Logic in ideology and the Guardian, in my mind is the product of a Bomb Logic of sorts. As we know, Bomb logic is the idea of strength or a result, created through the combination of various factors, put together to create a metaphorical ‘bomb’. Our Guardian and there actions for example, include the Traveller being in the Sol system, being attacked by the Witness, protecting Earth, releasing Ghosts, creating the Guardians, giving them the light, collective effort to build a city, later on with our guardians, defeating bosses in fire teams, not individually, having guidance from the traveller, creating allies with the Awoken, Fallen and Cabal, and so on. Any of our actions and results can be fit into the idea of the Bomb Logic, so if the Winnower followed the Sword Logic as it doctrine, then why does it keep talking to us?
It’s expressed many times that those it does not see as worthy of life are nothing to it. It talked to us (maybe) during Shadow Keep through a lore book, and most importantly, it spoke to us after defeating the Witness, which we beat not only with the combined might of Six guardian (the raid), but with 12 guardians and our collective allies of many races. I believe this shows that the Winnower has a broader view on strength in general. It can support those who pursue individual strength like Oryx and the Witness, but it can also support those who have collective strength, like our Guardians and the Alliance. This, to me is a very important idea if it’s true, because it determines how the Winnower will interact with us in the future.
I don’t believe the Winnower will interact with use directly in an antagonistic way, but instead through proxies with different beliefs of the Final Shape, like the Witness. You could have an enemy faction whose ideology is like the Hive, where they exterminate all other races so only they survive, you could have another that believe that they must evolve themselves scientifically to achieve the pinnacle form of existence (maybe steal the light and dark), you could have a conquering force that tries to make all other life forms subservient to them, you could have another that seeks to unite all sentient life into one giant alliance (then we could include politics into Destiny and perhaps choose sides and maybe have something like stopping assassination attempts or doing the assassinations ourselves, something like that), the list goes on.
I don’t believe it to be far fetched that the Winnower has many ‘knives’ that he uses to sharpen each other, for one to become the sharpest knife, no matter what that shape becomes. Remember, Oryx wasn’t a disciple of the Witness and as such was another potential victor of the flower game, but held a different ideology to the Witness, who, despite seemingly sharing a different idea of the Final Shape to the Winnower, still holds onto the powers of Dark. I do not believe that the Winnower, who is tue embodiment of consciousness and the mind, would not know the ideas the Witness had. And now, the Winnower is inviting us beyond the Sol system, perhaps inviting us to be a new knife, given we destroyed one ourselves, thus proving that our ideology has the power to beat another one.
Perhaps it’s inviting us to content with its’ other knives, outside of the Sol system, because the existence of a ‘first’ knives, implies the existence of other knives.
In conclusion, the Winnower wants to spruce up its cutlery drawer. Maybe we can be the first fork for all we know.
Might be too far-fetched, but the line about "One more sit-down for the books" may be further pointing to this being the same entity that spoke to Oryx, since both of these entries urge their reader to relax(kick back/sit down) and both of these are expected to be archived in books - just like Majestic.Majestic is acrhived in the Books of Sorrow
That was my first thought when reading this. Unveiling also has the same personality too. The fact the witness refers to itself as the first knife and the speaker of those lore entries does not.
Bro really said "My man Oryx" 💀
@@EKT_Enthusiastalbóndigas
he's literally like "did you think it was....Winnover?"
“Guardians……and Aztecross” boy you wild 😂😂
I actually think people are making an assumption that the Winnower is associated with Darkness as we know it. I think the Winnower and Gardener conflict is about causality vs. paracausality. The Winnower’s sword logic ultimately strikes me as things following their natural course/natural law where paracausality is the insertion of the rule of the Gardener in the game- the creation and preservation of complexity- and this means all paracausal power. Would make sense since we now basically have it confirmed that the Traveler and Veil used to be part of a whole.
The light is strongly associated with creation and chaos, the opposite of which is destruction and order, which lines up with a tendency towards an inevitable end. The final pattern that everything approaches is ultimately to cease existing. The Winnower is right, in a way, when it says that everything inevitably collapses towards its logic anyway. The universe has an end, where all of the chaos in the universe has left it and there’s none left. The inevitable conclusion of entropy is a state of unchanging. All these concepts are known to be associated with the darkness, and given that it is the polar opposite of the light, it seems pretty sound to me to conclude that the darkness is directly associated with the Winnower.
@@trevordillon1921 how does what we have learned about the darkness- memory, consciousness, mind stuff- have anything to do with the march toward that inevitable end? If anything, it’s an active resistance to that. If we take Unveiling as true and the Gardener’s rule includes the “preservation” of complexity what fits that better than what we’ve come to know as darkness? Look at it this way- the world we inhabit follows the Winnower’s view- the universe has a couple set endpoints depending on which theorist you ask and the only thing that bucks the “only that which exists deserves to exist” as far as evolution/complex life goes is human morality- a product of the development of our consciousness which nevertheless is no match for the march of natural law. The complexity we represent is a brief flicker that can’t ever be anything but brief. The Destiny universe is different because paracausal power gives beings power to defy the march to entropy beyond anything we can dream of. Paracausality as a whole is a defiance of causality’s final shape.
For a cosmic entity that wants to purge the universe I really like its down to earth vibes
I don't think it wants the universe purged just simply wants the strongest to survive and exist and the gardener wants all life to exist no matter how strong or weak
@@flagondragon1854indeed. If we are taking the roles of the gardener and winnower into mind. The gardener is to create life whilst the winnower isn’t just killing, it is pruning, removing what is weak and harms the garden.
The Winnower has no desire to purge the universe, the Winnower's only real interest is in maintaining the game within a certain rule set, because he believes in finality and the final shape of the game (Which, is usually the Vex). He believes the Universe should function on a rigid set of rules, rules that force all to fight for their place and right to exist. Thus leaving only one final shape at the end. The Winnower doesn't care in anyway who stands as The Final Shape, the supreme winner of the game, the species who power and logic has proven itself superior through the act of carving away all others. He doesn't really wish ill on anyone or anything. He pursues the Traveler because its the Gardener or a Disciple of it that is running around the game, changing the rules, altering shapes into new shapes, and resubmitting failed shapes back into the game. It's not about death and destruction at all, it's about pushing the Universe to finality, the ending of this flower game, The Final Shape.
The Winnower is basically the fullest extension of Natural Selection. The Gardener is the opposite, instead wishing away the non-compassionate manner natural selection works, instead wishing to give shapes the ability to transcend natural selection.
The Gardener and or the Traveler are a direct afront to that, because the ideal behind them is endless creation, endless existence, endless creativity, new shapes are always being born, and always evolving, altering their paths and abilities. The Gardener stands for creation and complexity. The Winnower stands for finality and simplicity. The balancing of these forces is what allows all things to exist. Neither Evil, nor Good, just, there, and acting on the game. It does seem like the Traveler and or Gardener has the upper hand at the moment, the paracausal power of the Guardian has got to be giving him HELL of a time to advance his 'agendas' if you can call them that. We as Guardians are immune to the rules of the game for the most part, our whole thing is Guardians make their own fate. The Traveler's introduction of the Guardian to the game has got to be interesting to The Winnower, and Im curious if he has plans to use us in his own ways.
Gardener creates gardens for things to flourish, the Winnower keeps trying to winnow those gardens. Not out of malice, but its simple belief in the right and law of natural selection. Without the Gardener, there's nothing to winnow, without a Winnower, creation itself would run rampant with warring shapes and be utter chaos. Both forces keep the other in check, allowing the universe to exist at all, as these forces are able to balance one another to keep their extremes from coming to pass.
Savathun is the closest thing to truth in the Destiny universe atm, despite her unreliable nature. Neither of these forces ACTUALLY care about you or any other shapes in the game. They're here to play out a game on a scale several levels above us, we are inconsequential outside of pushing the grand agendas of the forces themselves. The Traveler may wish to do more, but was clearly designed to not be allowed, Ergo sum illustrates as much in the text that clearly are thoughts of the Traveler. This is why Savathun is telling us to STOP playing by the rules, to stop being pawns for entities that hold no love for us. The Traveler would abandon us to save itself if it could, it has several times before, The witness's race, Eliksni, and I believe there were several upon several other civilizations the Hive chased the Traveler away from during the Books of Sorrow period as well. The Gardener and the Winnower both are dispassionate to us and our issues on any real level. Yet we continue to be pawns for these forces, and allow them to push us to their own causes or agendas, instead of our own.
@@VendettaPSC I think the Winnower just wants the game to end. The Winnower wants a "winner" to the game.. which is why it didnt actively stop the Witness, and why it loved Oryx and now is excited about us... we are all potential "ends" to the game/universe. On the other hand, The Gardener wants the game to never end.. it created/became the Traveler precisely to keep the game going on forever, to: "reward those who make space for *new* complexity"... incidentally... this would explain exactly why the traveler never gave guidance to the precursors to the witness... giving them guidance/purpose would be antithetical to its purpose of new, unexpected things being made. Ironically, this also explains why the Witness hates the traveler, it knows what the Traveler/Gardener is trying to do... the Traveler is, in a sense, prolonging suffering infinitely, because suffering is a part of life. The Witness, based on its comments in the raid, also didn't truly support the Winnower either. It seems to have believed the Winnower was always destined to "win", and instead decided that it would become the First Knife so that it could at least define what the Final shape would look like- everything frozen in perfection as opposed to fading away into entropy.
Also, I don't really believe the Winnower is as disinterested as its claiming to be. If it was, why talk to us at all? I believe we have basically proven to the Winnower that it no longer has exclusive control of the darkness by means of the First knife (which I interpret to be a description of the process of using darkness to affect the minds of living things to bring forth an end to the universe). However, we've also seen that light can be used to the same ends... The Winnower is basically saying, "ok, yeah, you philosophically defeated the First knife", but it doesn't matter, light, dark, whichever power people choose, some will always choose strength as the most important thing, and that choice will someday lead to the end of the game. TLDR: I'm not entirely convinced the Winnower will never be an opponent to us in a more direct sense. I'm also not convinced that we don't end up raising a middle finger to both the Gardener and the Winnower both.
THE WINNOWER THE WINNOWER THE WINNOWER THE WINNOWER IN THE TRAVELLER THE MIGHTY TRAVELLER THE WITNESS SLEEPS TONIGHT
lol 🤣
Leave the Sol system? Yes please bungie 😊
Winnower itself is not evil, but necessary for the universe. The first knife will always be the big bad. I think the Winnower and Gardener do not exist physically in the universe......well up until now. Because darkness entered the traveler, the travelers self perceptions will form the gardener into an actual being. Which in turn may create the Winnower out of cosmic necessity. For once one of them exists, the other must exist also.
Damn you might be on to something. That is not a bad way to explain why the traveler and the veil whether the veil itself has a "consciousness" similar to the traveler isn't aware of the gardener or winnower.
Darkness might finally give memory to the existence inside Traveller...
Which would create an actual Gardener. You probably got something here.
Especially with Micahs communing with the memories.
Winnower is going to be in a Hawaiian shirt, board shorts and flip flops when we finally meet
And now I desperately want Jeff Bridges to voice the Winnower.
YES YES. Bro it better have some outta body mind exploding weed too.
bungie said to not trust it because they have no idea what they want to do w a story that was butchered apart since D1 inception lol.
Winnower be like: “Hey, what’s up my Nacre?”
😂😂😂😂😂😂
With this talk of the winnower... We played right into their hands by felling the witness... Tfw we enact the final shape unknowingly
If that true The Witness would’ve known… because before it died it was confused about something
The winnower couldn't tell the knife what shape to carve.
So something finally broke the first knife...
And proved Winnower's ideology of the strong survive.
Except the rules changed, and strong can mean a collection of people united for a goal, not just one collective of nanobots like vex.
Winnower is still playing the game, or more likely, watching in glee.
@@8-t-r903the witness thought that it would be the one to survive
wtf. Is the winnower secretly the drifter? Why’s it talking like that lol
Winnower is just really chill though 😂
Honestly the winnower is the closest thing there is to the devil in the destiny universe so it makes sense that it's so chill cause it's so immensely powerful that it doesn't see us as a threat just atoms existing that are part of its bigger plans
It seems chill the way Randall Flagg seems chill. A wicked grin full of sharp teeth.
@@jasonhughes9916 The Stand. What a beautiful reference.
@flagondragon1854 he sounds like cringe level cloudstrider. This just proves to me that the writers are sub par and have no idea what to take this.
@@MrFraknak Jesse, what the fuck are you talking about?
Episodes is preparation to leave Sol. Failsafe is collecting life in the Helm.
It is talking to us like we are friends we only have enemies in Destiny 😂
Enemies is holding them to too much credit. More like exotics yet to be made. Lol
Winnower= Our Homie
Real “what's shaken’ bacon” energy from the winnower here
wait, if the witness is the first knife forged by the winnower, are we guardians kinda the same thing but from the gardener?
Yes we're bits of the bomb logic. Tiny pieces that add up to a whole
I really hope aztercross (even though he recommends people to your channel) gives you a percentage of his income from watching your videos… and his stream / reaction to your content. I think that would be really cool of him to do.
Anyway love your channel because I don’t play destiny anymore but you keep me in the loop
The darkness is immaterial, the light is material.
I don't think the winnower is a darkness entity. The winnower has a philosophy of winnowing and the gardener of creating.
Remember light and dark can do both of these, the witness chose to use it for it's purposes.
I think light and dark are the neutral forces of the universe and they are watching us play out it's conclusion in a "game".
He’s my take, I think the traveler is the Gardeners “new rule” and the guardians are a direct result of that “new rule”. While the Witness is the Winnowers response to this “new rule” created by the Gardener. The Gardener and the Winnower will never be protagonists or antagonists in our story. Instead, we are their pawns, choosing to follow whichever’s philosophy we choose. I think the Gardener and the Winnower don’t interact with the game while it’s in motion, instead setting everything up before the start of the game and letting everything play out as is to see who comes out in top in the end. By its nature though I don’t think the Gardener can ever truly win/beat the Winnower. Just delay it.
Bungie telling us there are red herrings is a red herring in of itself.
I'm starting to suspect that Bungie will try and pull a fast one on us and have it to where our Guardians contemplate serving the Winnower. Like, I foresee them painting it as this "all inclusive" type where we as the bad asses of the universe are his favorites 🤷🏻♂️
The Vex being mentioned as the previous Final Shape of life again fills me with happiness. Never forget that the Vex want that status back!
I'm thinking of Odin from God of War Ragnarok with this relaxed language style
I watch you as a new husband and recently found out I'm gonna be a dad but this is the 2nd thing I look forward to big fan and watch every vid huge lore nerd blessed be the Traveler
Congrats!
@@AtenSol12 thanks
Congrats bud my best friend became a dad this year it’s a beautiful responsibility to have
@@GrahamtheTitan it is the best thing ever for us titans
This is a weird thing....
First Knife hated entropy and called us its agent.
Winnower is nothing but entropy. Its final shape is that of a result of entropy.
Hmm.
That’s what always confused me about the Witness’ logic. Entropy in of itself will result in the heat death of the universe. Chaos and creation will consume itself until there is nothing left other than a perfectly still system.
That means the Witness is just wrong in its logic, & just craves power. The Winnower understands entropy and knows that it can’t be controlled (at least forever), only observed until the very end.
the winnower's relaxed and casual manner of speaking makes me believe that they are just a chill surfer bro.
We ended the light vs dark saga it’s time to start the light + dark saga
I want another galaxy, different planet and defi atly NEW BOSSES AND RAID. I am tired of the recycling of D1.
And hopefully we will get other mechanics than, kill X ennemy, grab buff, bring it here, dps phase. Its getting old.
Why cant we have bosses like in mmo's? Lile in FF, where we have to stand in safe spots, and dps is juat done, no need for phases. Its really stupid.
Aztecross getting my called out for stealing homework to make money and syphon views
I like how The Winnower signed off "Be seeing you!"
I feel like Savathun has used that sign off as well. I like that subtleness in the writing... as we know (or are guided to believe) that Savathun is already "placing pieces in the next game" and thus relating to The Winnower in thay sense.
i guess the nine are dead then. might as well be if not.
I get serious mom and dad vibes from the Winnower (or whatever this entity is) and whatever might be the Gardener. Makes me think of the original idea of the pale woman and the Crow looking character with the sword that was supposed to embody the darkness. The entity here really seems like it will setup the next conflict to be us against the Vex. I think they find a way to simulate paracausality and then become a near unstoppable force with the Winnower sitting back and watching as it's two most powerful kids duke it out to be its victor of the flower game. I wonder if the Winnower does have a physical form in this universe.
Thinking that the crow looking character is the Winnower is and has always been pure speculation and feels completely fabricated to me. Just like the assumption that his sword was supposedly hidden in the pyramid architecture, which was nothing more than conjecture based on the architecture featuring some rectangles.
Soooo… What type of gun are gonna make out of the Winnower?
I have always believe that Unveiling was from the Winnower. Like you mention here, the talking is just so different from the witness.
What I find funny, is how Oryx is described in this. How Unveiling describes Oryx as "my man", while Rhulk and the Witness thought the Krill/Hive didn't actually understand the Final Shape.
I love this. I hope the winnower is in the archetype of the “friendly” Bond villain
I like to think the Gardener and Winnower is a parable...................for the devs and management. Gardener is always trying to add stuff and do stuff for the players, to give LIFE to their game. Management is always culling and cutting and trimming from the creations of the devs.
its all probably a lie, like a religious text...
-based
Like history, too. Or a philosophical text. Or a study. Anything and everything is probably a lie.
The Winnower exsit but not physically like us Guardians or The Witness.
There more like abstract beings.
Does this confirm that Oryx talked to the Winnower?
Oryx/Aurash:
I am Aurash, first daughter of the dead king. I will chase my father's last screamed warning. I will know what changed the motion of our moons. If the end of the world is coming, I will understand why. On my center eye I swear it.
Oryx/Aurash:
Sometimes I wonder if I'm a nihilist. I don't do much except break things. [...] The only way to make something good is to make something that can't be broken. And the only way to do that is to try to break everything. I'm glad I learned that the universe runs on death. It's more beautiful to know.
Winnower:
This great, beloved cosmos. Always decaying, always finding that same old lovely pattern, despite every candle-flame burning amid the flowers. A billion electrons taking the path of least resistance. In Darkness or in Light, someone is always making my choice.
???:
But they are not incontrovertibly destined to rule this cosmos. They were made before Light and Darkness, but the rules are different now, and even this pattern must adapt.
They are not all mine, not in the way that admirers such as my man Oryx are mine: utterly devoted to the practice of my principle. But some of them have, nonetheless, found their way home.
???:
Oryx, my King, my friend. Kick back. Relax. Shrug off that armor, set down that blade. Roll your burdened shoulders and let down your guard. This is a place of life, a place of peace.
Out in the world we ask a simple, true question. A question like, can I kill you, can I rip your world apart? Tell me the truth. For if I don't ask, someone will ask it of me. And they call us evil. Evil! Evil means 'socially maladaptive.' We are adaptiveness itself.
Ah, Oryx, how do we explain it to them? The world is not built on the laws they love. Not on friendship, but on mutual interest. Not on peace, but on victory by any means. The universe is run by extinction, by extermination, by gamma-ray bursts burning up a thousand garden worlds, by howling singularities eating up infant suns. And if life is to live, if anything is to survive through the end of all things, it will live not by the smile but by the sword, not in a soft place but in a hard hell, not in the rotting bog of artificial paradise but in the cold hard self-verifying truth of that one ultimate arbiter, the only judge, the power that is its own metric and its own source-existence, at any cost. Strip away the lies and truces and delaying tactics they call 'civilization' and this is what remains, this beautiful shape.
The fate of everything is made like this, in the collision, the test of one praxis against another. This is how the world changes: one way meets a second way, and they discharge their weapons, they exchange their words and markets, they contest and in doing so they petition each other for the right to go on being something, instead of nothing. This is the universe figuring out what it should be in the end.
And it is majestic. Majestic. It is the only thing that can be true in and of itself.
And it is what I am.
--
--
--
It's interesting because the Witness always refers to themselves in the plural:
We know pain
We are your salvation
We are not your enemy
We offer you
But here the being who talks to Oryx refers to himself in the singular
My king
My friend
My man
...my man Oryx are mine
If it were the Witness, the correct word would be: Our king, Our Friend, [...] our man Oryx is ours...
Even if it was the Witness that spoke to Oryx (or talked about Oryx), it is most likely that it was one of the Precursors who took full control of the entity (Witness), and spoke to Oryx in the singular and not in the collective. Whatever spoke to Oryx was a singular entity, and did not see itself in the collective.
Oryx was not THEIR friend.
Oryx was HIS/HER friend.
Oryx did not belong to THEM.
Oryx belonged to HIM/HER.
Totally in the singular.
The entity that talked to Oryx apparently sees itself as death?
"The world is not built on the laws they love. The universe is run by extinction, by extermination, by gamma-ray bursts burning up a thousand garden worlds, by howling singularities eating up infant suns. And it is majestic. Majestic. It is the only thing that can be true in and of itself. And it is what I am."
This sounds very similar to Winnower's speech, something she or he would say, and then Oryx talks about how beautiful it is to know that the universe works with death.
So if I understand correctly;
1. The (origins of) the Vex were the "predictable outcome" of the flower game which prompted the Gardener to introduce a new rule.
2. Said rule allowed for more complex and intricate life to develop. Presumably Eliksni, Krill, Cabal and humanity.
3. The Winnower sees that even complex life follows the same principal. The stronger survive, taking from the weak. It compares it to evolution. Animals (weaker species) become food. Its not inherently good nor evil. Just the natural way of things.
4. This is what it refers to by saying the new rule eventually brought a gift. For it. These new species follow the same path regardless.
Algorithm pleasing comment written.
If you ever want a game with excellent lore that actually is presented in game.... Boy do I have around +500 hours of story in a mmo for you with brilliant and stupidly good story telling and world building. Its ***** ******* **.
Peace
I can’t wait to watch aztercross reaction to this video 😂😂😂
It's fun and kind of creepy the way the winner talks so casually as if we're best friends already
There's something off-putting about the Winnower talking like a Chad. It smacks of Failsafe just messing with us (/s). Hopefully Bungie chills on the dark = bad stuff for a while. I think it would be amazing if something similar happened now that happened after the first collapse - the power vacuum creates a bunch of warlords vying for power. Give Destiny some real factions with real choice and consequence in some kind of reputation system.
I don’t get the people who don’t want to see the Winnower. The Winnower is the coolest villain in Destiny, by far; being the person above Oryx. The personality of the Winnower is fantastic and the history of the Winnower is moreso. To me it’s like not wanting peanut butter with chocolate… like why????
It's more like, it wouldn't really make sense for the Winnower to appear, since Oryx had to use an ogre as a proxy for him to even directly talk to it.
There have been concept art of what people presume is the Winnower, i wouldn't mind having it appear, it'll just need to have a good reason as to why he would appear physically, considering it's whole "I just wanna see who is the last person standing" and not bothering to do anything about everything that's just occured, besides trying to recruit us as another one of it's champions.
Also, some people (me) just think peanut butter with chocolate is too much (I dont really mind if the Winnower appears or not, but i'd need to be convinced.)
@@boofhitter21Not to mention the Light and Dark saga is over now. Yet, still no third darkness subclass.
@@assassinwolf2719 maybe the writers would have the Winnower try to seduce us with new darkness power as the Witness did with stasis, though thats my best guess since i dont know how else we get another subclass if its not from the Winnower, maybe we get to venture into the Veil as we did with the Traveler, who knows, though there was one line from the lost ghosts missions that has people thinking that Nightmares are going to be the next subclass, one throwaway line states that theres yet untapped power in the pyramid from the moon, so everyone's best guess is that we'd be able to use Nightmare energy at some point.
“Ending the Light vs Dark saga” was never in the actual meat of the story.
It was only from interviews and advertising from the corporate side of Bungie.
They set the Winnower up in the raid with that voice line from the Witness.
That the winnower isn’t him, and that the winnower helped shape the Witness, but you can’t control the knife after it’s made. (Heavily paraphrased)
So I’m not surprised that Light vs Dark is restarting.
We have an intermission with these echo copy paste season/episodes, and then you’re absolutely right… it sets up Frontiers, and the Light v Dark resumes.
I don't think the Winnower is a being of Darkness. "In Darknes or in Light, someone is always making my choice". We might be incorrectly assigning sides to Light and Dark again. The Sword Logic doesn't need to be a domain of Darkness exclusively. We can also prove "our right to exist" by wielding the Light, which is what we've been doing since the Traveller raised us.
With the revelation that the Winower and the Witness are seperate entities, and looking at the Books of Sorrow, it shows that Oryx was never even akin to a Disciple of the Witness, he was more of a contender/competition, though Im not sure if Oryx knew of the Witness
My theory for a while has been that the Winnower is the Universe itself, and the Gardener's paracausal influence and encouraging the growth of sentient life (changing the game) allowed it the means to emulate a mind of its own over billions/trillions of years. The "argument" between the Gardener and Winnower is just an interpretation of events, like Micah-10 and Misraaks have been doing with visions and feathers in TFS. No words were spoken or exchanged in any sense. Like watching a silent video and coming up with your own dialogue to explain what and why things were happening.
The Ley Lines, stars, planets, etc acting like neurons connecting across all of existence, with the Veil being like the hub in which it all connects.
Entities like The Nine are minds/consciousnesses that formed independently like alternate personalities in a single brain with one being the dominant true personality. They're different, aware of each others existence in the construct, but don't have a genuine physical form (yet) outside of it. And they desperately want to be free.
All true have are means to interact and influence in specific circumstances. Xur was intented to be the 10th to assist them in crossing over, but in the meantime, he's a walking experiment/data collection to help The Nine figure out how to stabilize form in the Universe separate from the expanding universe, the expanding Deep, the mind of the Winnower.
8:58 I think this last line is particularly important as the Destiny story moves beyond the Light vs Dark saga.
The Winnower is saying here that any actions Guardians take will be of the interest of the Winnower, whether those actions involve the Light or Darkness.
It was previously thought that the Winnower corresponded specifically to the Darkness, but this line makes it seem even more so than we've already guessed that the Light (Traveler) and Darkness (Veil) are just tools for Guardians to exercise.
It's quite a sobering thought that we might be acting in the interest of the Winnower even though we may think we're doing things in the name of the "Light".
Yo Myelin, If you need some more lore about Nezarec, then play the Shadowkeep mission BEYOND. Bungie changed it a bit.
✌️
I don't think we'll actually see the Winnower. I think it will more be the Winnower's influence. We could see Lysander as well as the Dregen return following their own ideals based on the Winnower.
I also don't think it will be light Vs dark. If you think about what the Winnower said in the last line "in darkness or in light someone is always making my choice" it's not a case of dark Vs light. Is a case of clashing ideals, clashing choices. They made a big thing about making your choice in the Final Shape and the last word here is "choice". Whether guardian, human, Eliksni, Cabal, we all make our own fate. What fate will we choose.
Perhaps this is why the winnower can talk to us while the traveler uses more "misterious" ways. It's because their nature. The traveler governs the physical world, but what does that mean? It means they rule over the universe laws. we've seen it in different moments (terraforming mars, "fighting the pyramids) but what if it cannot interact in any other way. The winnower though, if the lore of the final shape is true, has the dominion of the metaphysical wolrd (connection to that which is not governed by physical laws purely, memory, feelings, etc). This is why, when the traveler spoke to cayde, they manifested as his ghost, cause it was a medium to speak to him. Now, why he doesn't creat a ghost for that? Because when cayde met the traveler, they were inside them. Perhaps communicating outside the pale-heart world in such fashion would require something else, or perhaps he wants to stay faithful to the commandments of the fifth rule (paracausality): a rule running in parallel to the game so it cannot be compromised, and used carefully so it does not disrupt the whole game. Thus, the winnower could access us directly because it is its domain. We should also remember that the traveler manifests its memories as the ball (form dreams of alpha lupi we learn that "But memory is heavy now. It feels like lead and neutronium and electroweak matter fashioned into a moon-sized ball that you must carry as you move.") So perhaps because the traveler is missing its shard, it cannot function correctly to the outside world (from another lore tab of those dreams we learn that the strike against the darkness "has rob it more than the body"). And we still have a "secret zone" in the traveler's shard waiting to be used, so👀... but that's all speculation, for now xD
I respect your opinion but i gotta disagree. I don’t even think your rough description of the hive logic was good. The hive don’t just kill and be better than them but they consume and absorb the power. It’s not just destruction, that’s why they have tithes and connections to words and ideologies with magic. It’s actually kinda beautiful but presented in a crusty way lol it’s kinda like sharing by eating the animal and its protein is now a part of us. Similar and beautiful. Real as well, just because there are more extremes doesn’t mean it’s not real. So the guardian is finding and exploring all these differences to share, not take because every difference matters, not just the strong or competitive. This game is a mirror of our world yet most don’t look beyond the veil into the darkness/abyss to see the reflections. I mean, that’s all we do in life, look at reflections of light off differences.
There’s another layer to “the whole world is your sweet silicate shellfish” in the context of this particular lore tab for this particular ship. It’s called *Nacre,* the stuff that makes up the majority of a pearl formed *inside an oyster.*
So if the world is our oyster, then *we* are the grit in that oyster. And it’s only in the context of suffering and competition with other beings-the irritation formed by our grit-that we are forced to evolve, grow, and prove our worth. *That* is what forces the formation of the beautiful pearl of our self-evident proof for meriting existence.
But now that we have learned the Light is, in a sense, its own compound being like the Witness, consisting of all the Guardians and Ghosts formed by it? And if we are the grit at the center of that pearl, much like the dissidents at the heart of the Witness? Then does the Winnower ultimately hope *we* will become dissenters at the heart of the Light, so we can (ironically, poetically) cause its ultimate downfall *just as those dissenters caused the fall of the Witness for us?*
Both the Gardener and the Winnower are neither good nor bad. They simply are, whether that be through philosophy or actual action in the universe itself. They are a check n balance for each other that provides everything meaning. Reminds me of Warhammer 40k with how the chaos gods are. Now before I get the obvious, well they are evil... yes but with the chaos gods, they are not simply evil, they encompass much more then death. They exist as part of emotion, action, logic, existence and being as a whole which I find very interesting when comparing to the Gardener and Winnower.
While the Winnower is about Finalization, the Gardener is about chaos. Both can be bad but the at the same time the Winnower represents order, while the Gardener is about birth and bringing new to what didn't exist.
Who are we as its creation to set blame and direction to those that transcend moral obligation and thought?
Something to ponder over as Frontiers draw closer...
Just my first impression hearing this. Like you said, the tone is interesting. It doesn't strike me as the Winnower - it's far too casual. The Winnower, to me, always seems extremely serious and almost irritated at anything light-hearted or not going by the rules. This writing comes across like the way Mara speaks - effeminate in nature, disarming, manipulative, etc. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out.
Saint and Osiris holding hands and talking about going out and adventuring out beyond the system being a cutscene. I would say they're strongly suggesting we're leaving Sol. Plus all the other hints. Taking over and driving the dreadnaught. Elenskni technology.
The sedimentary necrolite fossilized in time is a jab at the witness’s vision of the final shape. Think about the parts of the pale heart that are obviously of the witnesses mind. statues of various things, even landscapes with various layers of various materials like the layers of sedimentary rock.
The “spilled radiolaria” is interesting because on one hand it suggests they escaped the original garden but also seems like a linguistic misunderstanding of colloquialism of calling radiolaria “milk”.
I don't get the impression Bungo is "adding" a new darkness character on the tail end of the witness. I believe this is merely reminding us the witness was never the big bad of Destiny. The Winnower has always been out there - and here he just wanted to creepily say, "Hiya!"
I hope the story doesn’t turn into: Now we’re fight Big Darkness B, now we’re fighting Great Big Darkness C. Like give us a new alien race while we go explore the galaxy.
I think Gardener/Winnower is more of an overarching theme. As if they are the ones who created this universe or life and while the Light and Dark saga is over, Light and Dark are core tenets of Destiny as a whole and we may meet the Gardener and Winnower I don’t think they will ever be physical opponents or allies, just characters within, or telling, our story
It’s just making me feel like “the game” they are playing is literally just a game. It almost makes it sound like to me two friends just casually playing a game with eachother and it’s just like the winnower and Gardner are just experimenting with ways to cheat in their game. Kinda like when you play cod with your friend and one starts screen peeking
Has myelin finally stopped needlessly bieng a hate channel yet?
It seems the Winnower is but a pseudonym for the Darkness, for by nature, it takes. Light is benevolent and gives. Each side of the coin doesn't agree with the other, but now we understand that they are beyond morality. It is nature and nurture.
Destiny out here getting it’s The man in the wall esc character
Hi kiddo.
Regarding the article from PC Gamer: we don't actually know in what context "Whatever the Witness says, maybe don't trust it," as it was a line selected from an hours' long Q&A and selectively published in the article. We don't actually know if it related to Unveiling or not. Is there a video of that story writing round table we can reference?
I think the change of rules refers to the echoes, especially since the Vex on Nessus are gaining individualism after exposure to the light and dark energies of the echo. If this leads to each frame being a unique radoilarian colony following the Traveler's ideal of choice over the Winnower's of following the pattern and it may be a shared theme between the episodes
It’s not a darkness entity. Go look at the new smg lore for perfect pitch and understand what it is. Imagine the universe and the weight of the differences crossing is the various differences of the winnower and gardener. The gardener sees one side and the winnower the other. The winnows is the pieces but the pieces are themselves unknowing the patterns they share to bring out. When a lot of people do bad we see a storm of terror even on accident when unsynchronized or unaligned and call it an act of the devil, which is the negatives. People weren’t caring or neglectful or whatever but it’s the things in the dark that bite people and instead of looking, they pretend to be blind to it. It looks crazy but it makes sense from every perspective.
This winnower is the thing between choices but is only because there are infinite choices. It’s always there just like a god but really it’s a part of everything itself and can see that. It wants to open the flower but it’s not the one in control. It doesn’t tell us what to cut. That’s why the witness went for the light to share control but it’s a false idol but real nonetheless. Our power against it is understanding and not falling into the traps of ignorance. Or better known as the darkness.
I guess it’s kinda like an entity but one that’s is constantly sharing itself and being changed. Like a mirror. Like a human mind or like an animals. It makes no difference when it finds this point of reference and shares because it wants to. Pain… pleasure… it’s missed this and doesn’t get to see it for itself, it shares with us, kinda maybe like piggybacking but is at the same time. Like the future or the infinite staring back.
At this point, I’m practically convinced after the hive got their worms bc of the witness and everything oryx basically dipped out away from the witness and did his own thing following the winnower directly. I can’t think of one single interaction between oryx and the witness in lore after he talks to the winnower.
Also, oryx had an understanding of the final shape specifically as the winnower did while the witness’s idea of it was almost exactly the opposite of it. I wouldn’t be surprised if the winnower is happy we got rid of the witness
Can't help but notice the way Winnower speaks, especially "be seeing you", sounds a lot like the Drifter.
This is seeming more and more like a creationism vs evolution style debate/game/argument than the winnower being an actual baddy. It seems like the winnower and the gardener put two separate philosophy’s out into the universe and are waging as to which will come out on top…
I don’t think the Winnower will be an antagonist at all. It seems to me that it’s just going to simply be an observer, watching from the sidelines as the universe inches ever closer to the “real” final shape. Not the distorted, nightmarish one that The Witness was seeking. But the real, true final shape that is inevitable.
Reminder the sol system is fucked and the red legion were actively shooting particalized dense matter into the sun and have probaby brought it a few million years closer to fusing iron (eg) nova stage.
"Pleased to me you! Hope you guessed my name! But what's puzzling you is the nature of my game!" The Winnower
2:09 the lore being dropped after the Witness was defeated is due to a bug, not them intentionally waiting. The Winnower shouldnt be an antagonist, since its thing is that it doesnt intervene. (& how would it being a villain anyway, if there is no actual being? Theres no entity inside the Traveler, leading it to the Traveler being the Gardener most likely, same with the Veil as it is most likely the Winnower). I also see it dumb to end the Light & Dark saga, only to start another one, alotta wrong with that
The ship is a real life current design.
it's a local warp drive. Basically the idea is, bend space time to pull it as a blanket around you. This way you can easily go well over the speed of light.
So The Witness and the pyramid ships are just your run of the mill big bad guy who just uses the darkness? Kind of lame
Please for the love of the light stop reading the lore tabs line by line. Love the vids but I have to skip so much cause if I wantes to read the lore myself I wouldnt watch this channel. Its not math class we dont need you to show your work just give the answer.
Just hear to say it should be "Bungie doubles down" unless you're trying to make a Downs Syndrome joke?
The one thing that has been constant throughout the game, two godlike creatures manipulating all of the pawns in their game. This is great to see it continue like this. I think it would be a bad thing if our guardian ever actually came across the Winnower or the Gardener.
Don’t ask me why, because I don’t know.. but the Winnower should be voiced by Ben Mendelsohn
Another point of connection to Unveiling, the mention of a flame among the flowers immediately made me think of the flower game aka John Conway's game of life
Reminds me of Disgustipated by Tool,
This is necessary.
This is necessary.
Life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on life.
I honestly don’t think the winnower will end up being an antagonist, it almost seems to speak of opposing forces with love and admiration. It’s quite clear it just sees the universe as a real time sim game.
Not to mention we’d just prove its point by fighting against it
Not my first text to my partner today being 'Mylien just dropped a new video'. 😂
Aztecross being called out is sending me
Is there a beef i sont know? What is that about? Would you be so kind as to tell me?
@@celuiquipeut6527 it’s not a beef both Cross and Myelin are good friends. It’s just a small joke towards Cross since he knows he will be watching the video on stream.
Hell yeah. Been waiting to hear again from the ol’ Winnower.
Also yeah savage opening.
Why does the Winnower say it doesnt care for the change of rules, wasnt it the one who changed the rules of the flower game?
The gardener and winnower are much more than dark or light to me. Excited to see what frontiers is about.
What if the Winnower can see us, the actual players? Could that be the billion it mentioned? If Savathun can do it, why can't it?
The Nine as well, its very possible
veeeery interesting with the casual tone. that would be a unique turn on a "big bad"