I’m excited to make some unhinged rigging for scared/angry/screaming toggles. Having my Overwatch cosplay model Crash Bandicoot around the screen while I baby rage will be great lmao
Even if I already watched AMelodicPerson's tutorial, I really liked yours! =D One tip from their video though, because I think you missed this: "Link Sprite" is used to attach Layers to another Layer. For example, you can link your eyebrows to your head and then they'll move as one layer (but you can still give them their own attributes on top =3)
the only thing that i ran into problem wise is not knowing the size needed to make things not look squished in, still kinda looking for an appropriate size but overall this is a GREAT tutorial! Hopefully they implement a resizer in future updates
@@kaiakairos ah gotcha! I thought I saw on one of your socials it said they/them so I wanted to make sure people aren’t runnin around with the wrong set of pronouns for you. My apologies then!
Hehe, nice to see another UTAU user around! I actually have a separate channel for all my UTAU stuff if you’re ever interested~ Just search up “Amagaku” sometime if you feel like it! Glad to hear you liked the tutorial!
Such an awesome tutorial, also love how you shaded the model art. Thanks so much :3 Is there any way to resize the model? When I first imported, my art was way too big. I ended up resizing and resaving all my png parts OTL
saving an artist one at a time. im stubborn as hell and dont want to go back on a promise to my friend but my friend mistook vtube models as pngtubers. i dunno how to rig vtube models/don't have the right stuff for it and scrolled across your video so now i have a way to make a lively png for them while they save for a proper vtube model
So if you want to have different emotions, will you have to make a separate model or are there default buttons like Live2D to switch expressions?? (I’m new to this, so sorry if that didn’t make sense 😅)
perfect video for beginners to the vtube world, I was wondering if you could make a video about your other model in the video. Im really interested in live2D and your model looks incredible
THIS VIDEO MADE THIS PROGRAM SO MUCH SIMPLER TO USE KEJLKSNLRTJNVLTHNJ THNAK YOU SO MUCH this was one of those programs that i opened once and was like NOPE TOO COMLICATED and then i watched this and another video helping with different topics and i was like hey wait i can do that ITS GREAT I JUST MADE ONE OF MY OWN YESTERDAY HHEEEHEEE also, does anyone know how to move their character into the corner of the screen for recording? mine is just stuck dead center and i cant figure out how to move it :
I do recommend PNGtubing for anyone starting out! You 100% do NOT need a full Live2D model to become a VTuber. There are tons of ways to start out with PNGtubing that's much less expensive and time consuming. Plus, if you want a Live2D model later, you can always get one! But it's good to make sure you actually enjoy streaming and making content first before you spend thousands of dollars on an expensive model.
I have a bit of a question for PNGtuber commissions. When someone does that do they also put it into the PNGtuber program? And than send the file to them than or do they just make the PNGtuber model and they put it togeather? I hope that made sense sorry if it doesn't ;w;
No worries! So I’m sure it depends on the artist, but my own comms I put the model together (especially in PNGplus where it requires rigging) and send you both the individual parts of the model AND the finished model file!
Is it possible to set up and animate different expressions (as in making different poses)? And toggle between them like in veadotube? Ive watched a few tutorials but i got nothing yet
Yes! As of right now afaik you can 5 total expressions and poses combined (including your neutral base pose/expression) when you open the editor and look at the parts menu when clicking on a part, down on the bottom left below the rotational settings there are little boxes labeled 1-5 and you can use them to set expressions and poses! I do hope at some point in the future KaiaKairos adds more spots for them, I'm a SUCKER for lots of expressions XD
Great tutorial, thank you! I'm looking to make a very bare bones pngtuber of my cowboy avatar. Would probably just add some wobble to my bandana/mouth while talking. Do you have any suggestions on what app would be good for that? PNG+ looks like it has more than i'd be interest in.
ive got a weird sidebar no one else seems to have? its on the right side and has all the layers, and whenever I hold 0 to change an origin point it closes completely out of the layer and does nothing, please help :(
Hi ! This is a wonderfull tutorial but since the last update of pngtuber+ it's crashing after 20 / 30 min when i'm on stream and i see people having this several problem too but no answer :( Maybe you got the solution ?
So I don’t have a solution but I DO have the answer bc I believe the creator has talked about it: it’s something about the engine it was built on ;a; I’m pretty sure it is a known issue the creator is working on.
i'm so sad that tthe mac version doesn't fully work yet (the mic at least) cus i would love to try and make my own pngtuber with this program. it looks so cool! Hopefully someone will be able to make it work for mac in the future one day!
Thank you, for your tutorial, that was very helpful! As I am just starting out with this program I wonder if I overlooked it, but I can't find what center point the elements rotate around. Can I set it on my own? I'm fiddling around trying to make something like connected joints that wave around while speaking, but I'm having a hard time connecting them properly as the center of rotation is slightly off. Edit: I figured it out. If you hold O and press WASD you can change the center of origin.
You can do it either way! Something I really want to try out is a model that changes where they look when they talk. I normally draw my models in 3/4 view (except this one which I made as a test haha) because I can have them face into where the game normally is on screen!
You're fast '-' That was also my thought, having the png "looking" at the screen, seems a little more natural, instead of stearing into the souls of the viewer c:@@AstralArtsYT
@@AstralArtsYT I know you have to draw a closed mouth and an open mouth how do I draw both on the same canvas? Would I have to re draw the whole thing on a different canvas?
@@Newoshii same canvas! You just need to do the mouths on different layers from the face :) draw the face blank, with no eyes or mouth, and then do the mouth closed on a different layer, same for mouth open and eye open/eye closed!
@@Newoshii that likely means you've got the mouth set as an eye file in the program! make sure you only select the mouth and only select the button that looks either like a ":)" or a ":D"
how do you get your mouth to not just stay open like you screaming the whole time while you talk??? for me it is either open when talking or closed when not no variation..... also wish i could have more blink animations cause i tied blink to my ears to twitch them but it happens at same time i blink and thats weird. but it is what it is.
You’ve gotta adjust your mic settings! So it’s NOT in the model editing menu, it’s on the main screen of the program (as if you were using it when in stream!) on the bottom right there’s two bars you can adjust for when it counts it as enough volume to cause your mouth to open, just drag those back and forth a bit until it looks right!
thanks. ive been messing with it and i cant find a place the looks any good... i think the lack of intermediate frames is whats doing it for me. its so abrupt in open close and no in-between frames. i wish it used a gif animation like the other app i was using but the other app didnt support transparent backgrounds and my hand drawn color pencil model dont play nice with green screens. v.v ill just have to search around at other apps i guess.@@AstralArtsYT
So you actually CAN add inbetweens now i think! it's using sprite sheets instead of gifs (which admittedly im not super familiar with) but i would check KaiaKairos's page for info about it!@@kainobeaner
some antiviruses will flag programs that do not have a known/verified manufacturer as dangerous (because it cannot be verified by them since they dont know the maker) it doesnt mean its a virus. You will likely get the same message for a lot of PNGtubing programs like veadotube as well.
Any Mac users here? Some reason I can not find the folder and it seems like my computer isn't allowing the microphone to be used, even though I am the administrator to my laptop.
I actually found out!! Mac users if your mac won't open the folder follow this Library/Application Support/Godot/app_userdata/PNGTuberPlus Because the life of me I couldn't find it! so I hope this helps any other Mac User!
For the mic issue youll wanna open it in a terminal window, you can do so by clicking open package contents on the application or clicking open in terminal, you should be good for the mic issues
Have you made sure your files are all in .png format and actually in the program’s model file folder? I know it can be a little hard to navigate but you have to put them all in a specific folder for them to show up!
You need to make sure you're using something like OBS that has transparent video capture, and when you stream you just make sure you're not in the 'editor' mode of the pngtplus program, when in the editing sprite mode you will see a grey background, where as when you're in the recording mode you will have a transparent one!
I had this problem initially too, what's probably happening with you (if it's the same issue I had) is that it doesn't auto-select your mic in the program! just click on the microphone button and make sure the correct mic is selected, I know mine kept defaulting to the wrong one so It didn't work at first.
My file size was 1000x1000 in 350 dpi! I actually normally work in 2000x2000 for Veadotube (and I drew it in this size as well) but then had to size it down when I went to import all the pieces! AFAIK there’s no way of resizing things in the program and my original size came out way too huge XD
So I save mine bigger than recommended because I like to make it so my PNGs can also be used for things like advertisements and also just as art pieces. I believe the recommended is 750x750 pixels (and i would say 300 DPI for quality purposes) but I normally do 2000x2000 because it's the size I like drawing on XD
Thank you, the video is very useful. can't wait to try it but I have a question Can the PNG Tuber+ add expression? if some PNG tuber model has several expressions. Sorry my bad English 🙏
Actually, it’s both! PNGtuber’s are just a type of VTuber, and this model I’m explaining *IS* a pngtuber! My model is a live2D model, but the one I’m explaining how to make is a pngtuber.
If you press esc when focused on the app, it'll open the file explorer in a separate window so you don't have to find the app data folder yourself
You know, I actually DID know that and I think my brain blanked when making the tutorial XD thank you for pointing it out!
I LOVE YOU FOR THIS, THANK YOU
Thank you!!!
I'm on mac and when I try it just says "Application cannot be opened." Anyone know how to fix it?
I LOVE U
I’m excited to make some unhinged rigging for scared/angry/screaming toggles. Having my Overwatch cosplay model Crash Bandicoot around the screen while I baby rage will be great lmao
Even if I already watched AMelodicPerson's tutorial, I really liked yours! =D
One tip from their video though, because I think you missed this: "Link Sprite" is used to attach Layers to another Layer. For example, you can link your eyebrows to your head and then they'll move as one layer (but you can still give them their own attributes on top =3)
This helps so much!!! I was originally gonna trial-and-error it myself but you just saved my life THANK YOUUU
I’m glad it helped!!!
Thank you so much for the tutorial - just found out about PNGTuber Plus since I wanted to upgrade my model, and it's really helpful for starters 💚💚
the only thing that i ran into problem wise is not knowing the size needed to make things not look squished in, still kinda looking for an appropriate size but overall this is a GREAT tutorial! Hopefully they implement a resizer in future updates
I was looking through Twitter today and did see KaiaKairos had posted an update of them working on a resizing tool!
I saw somewhere, don't know if on twitter or the doc he made as tutorial, that a nice size is 720x720
@@taylejube2914 I believe KaiaKairos uses they/them, but thank you for the info!
@@AstralArtsYT anything goes for me i dont really mind :]
@@kaiakairos ah gotcha! I thought I saw on one of your socials it said they/them so I wanted to make sure people aren’t runnin around with the wrong set of pronouns for you. My apologies then!
Definitely do a tutorial on adding the gaming and drawing among other sprites, this was very helpful
Easy way to find the file folder. When in edit mode/ after you hit add sprite, just press esc key and it'll pull up the folder.
You're tutorial video explained how to use this program faster than reading through the manual.
Thanks for the tutorial... Also... UTAU user spotted! Seeing the UTAU folders were a surprise but definitely will be using this!
Hehe, nice to see another UTAU user around! I actually have a separate channel for all my UTAU stuff if you’re ever interested~ Just search up “Amagaku” sometime if you feel like it!
Glad to hear you liked the tutorial!
Such an awesome tutorial, also love how you shaded the model art. Thanks so much :3 Is there any way to resize the model? When I first imported, my art was way too big. I ended up resizing and resaving all my png parts OTL
There is a way in the newest update for the program! make sure you have version 1.4, and you can hold ctrl and use the scroll wheel to resize!
@@AstralArtsYT OH oh my god BLESS AND THANK
you are a lifesaver thanks a lot for this tutorial is pretty good
Thank you for your help! I couldn't find any video that explains it as well as you.
I AM SO CONFUSED AND LOST BY ONLY THE FIRST STEP WITH THE CUTTING
saving an artist one at a time.
im stubborn as hell and dont want to go back on a promise to my friend but my friend mistook vtube models as pngtubers. i dunno how to rig vtube models/don't have the right stuff for it and scrolled across your video so now i have a way to make a lively png for them while they save for a proper vtube model
this video was incredibly helpful, thank you!
Amazing tutorial 💕Thank you so much for your help with this program. Will be waiting for more videos from you~
So if you want to have different emotions, will you have to make a separate model or are there default buttons like Live2D to switch expressions??
(I’m new to this, so sorry if that didn’t make sense 😅)
Thanks for the hints I now know what to do
Thank you so much for your video, it helped me a lot.
Also I really like your art style and character design.
thank you! Hope you do another video on this with even more detail c:
Now for the hard part, designing and drawing
This was super helpful! Thank you very much :)
Are you able to make an expressive eared character with this? Like say a rabbit or cat would do?
I am, actually! The rotation axis in the program is GREAT for this.
How do to put it in obs like your png
i'm struggingggg
YAAAAY THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THIS TUTORIAL! Thankful to you I made my first model without difficulties and problems UwU~❤
DUUUDE!! THIS IS EPIC!!! I cant wait to try this!!
shows promise but needs an option for switching between different sprites of the same character for different emotions/actions.
perfect video for beginners to the vtube world, I was wondering if you could make a video about your other model in the video. Im really interested in live2D and your model looks incredible
I absolutely can! I actually can make it about a new model I've been working on, as I'm debuting a new model on Oct 26!
Thank you for reply! I really appreciate it!
It just works thanks you 🤝
Wonderful tutorial thank you for making it!!!
Hi, very helpful video, thank you!! What mic did you use for this video/use in general? Thanks!
No problem! I currently use a Blue Yeti mic! It’s not the best mic in the world but it does the job :)
Can you make a tutorial how you make the individual pieces in CSP ? Pretty please! I just bought CSP >3
I could absolutely do that!!!
@@AstralArtsYT I am learning CSP so I can follow your tutorial in the future !
Thank you so much for this!
THIS VIDEO MADE THIS PROGRAM SO MUCH SIMPLER TO USE KEJLKSNLRTJNVLTHNJ THNAK YOU SO MUCH this was one of those programs that i opened once and was like NOPE TOO COMLICATED and then i watched this and another video helping with different topics and i was like hey wait i can do that ITS GREAT I JUST MADE ONE OF MY OWN YESTERDAY HHEEEHEEE
also, does anyone know how to move their character into the corner of the screen for recording? mine is just stuck dead center and i cant figure out how to move it :
For someone who wants to start in the vtuber world, do you recommend star for PNGTuber?
And is looks so easy! i want to try it!
I do recommend PNGtubing for anyone starting out! You 100% do NOT need a full Live2D model to become a VTuber. There are tons of ways to start out with PNGtubing that's much less expensive and time consuming. Plus, if you want a Live2D model later, you can always get one! But it's good to make sure you actually enjoy streaming and making content first before you spend thousands of dollars on an expensive model.
nice and simple thank you life saver ❤️
I have a bit of a question for PNGtuber commissions. When someone does that do they also put it into the PNGtuber program? And than send the file to them than or do they just make the PNGtuber model and they put it togeather?
I hope that made sense sorry if it doesn't ;w;
No worries! So I’m sure it depends on the artist, but my own comms I put the model together (especially in PNGplus where it requires rigging) and send you both the individual parts of the model AND the finished model file!
I can’t find the file and send it to my friend like after I save it and try to locate it from the folders I can’t find it!@@AstralArtsYT
Is it possible to set up and animate different expressions (as in making different poses)? And toggle between them like in veadotube? Ive watched a few tutorials but i got nothing yet
Yes! As of right now afaik you can 5 total expressions and poses combined (including your neutral base pose/expression) when you open the editor and look at the parts menu when clicking on a part, down on the bottom left below the rotational settings there are little boxes labeled 1-5 and you can use them to set expressions and poses!
I do hope at some point in the future KaiaKairos adds more spots for them, I'm a SUCKER for lots of expressions XD
@@AstralArtsYT i hope so too! 5 is far from enough from the 12+ i had planned :,)
@@AstralArtsYTgosh I’m hoping so too
what canvas size do you use to make your vtuber ??
THANK YOU I'M GONNA MAKE SO MANY OF THESE LOL
Great tutorial, thank you!
I'm looking to make a very bare bones pngtuber of my cowboy avatar. Would probably just add some wobble to my bandana/mouth while talking. Do you have any suggestions on what app would be good for that? PNG+ looks like it has more than i'd be interest in.
Honestly, PNGplus is your best bet then! Veadotube is another good program but you can't make individual pieces wobble with it.
Thanks for responding! I'll play around with it. @@AstralArtsYT
ive got a weird sidebar no one else seems to have? its on the right side and has all the layers, and whenever I hold 0 to change an origin point it closes completely out of the layer and does nothing, please help :(
very helpful, thank u so much
Hi ! This is a wonderfull tutorial but since the last update of pngtuber+ it's crashing after 20 / 30 min when i'm on stream and i see people having this several problem too but no answer :( Maybe you got the solution ?
So I don’t have a solution but I DO have the answer bc I believe the creator has talked about it: it’s something about the engine it was built on ;a; I’m pretty sure it is a known issue the creator is working on.
@@AstralArtsYT I understand now ! Thank you for your fast reply 🤍
i'm so sad that tthe mac version doesn't fully work yet (the mic at least) cus i would love to try and make my own pngtuber with this program. it looks so cool!
Hopefully someone will be able to make it work for mac in the future one day!
Thank you, for your tutorial, that was very helpful!
As I am just starting out with this program I wonder if I overlooked it, but I can't find what center point the elements rotate around. Can I set it on my own? I'm fiddling around trying to make something like connected joints that wave around while speaking, but I'm having a hard time connecting them properly as the center of rotation is slightly off.
Edit: I figured it out. If you hold O and press WASD you can change the center of origin.
It says it in the down right corner of the program; "Hold 0 to move sprite origin".
omg thats so interesting thank you!!!
I always wondered, should the model look straight forward, or a little to the side.. working on my own but just cant get it right xD
You can do it either way! Something I really want to try out is a model that changes where they look when they talk. I normally draw my models in 3/4 view (except this one which I made as a test haha) because I can have them face into where the game normally is on screen!
You're fast '-'
That was also my thought, having the png "looking" at the screen, seems a little more natural, instead of stearing into the souls of the viewer c:@@AstralArtsYT
Wish it included the resolution needed, just wondering what is the right resolution, canvas size and dpi for making a png model.
720x720 pixels is the ideal! I'm not entirely sure on DPI, I usually just draw in 350 and mine came out alright.
Do you know if I can draw my model on Procreate and somehow transfer the files to my computer so I can use this platform?
@@Newoshii you absolutely can, so long as procreate lets you save transparent png files!
@@AstralArtsYT I know you have to draw a closed mouth and an open mouth how do I draw both on the same canvas? Would I have to re draw the whole thing on a different canvas?
@@Newoshii same canvas! You just need to do the mouths on different layers from the face :) draw the face blank, with no eyes or mouth, and then do the mouth closed on a different layer, same for mouth open and eye open/eye closed!
@@AstralArtsYT I’ve got my character in there now but when it blinks the mouth disappears how do I fix that? sorry for all the questions 😂
@@Newoshii that likely means you've got the mouth set as an eye file in the program! make sure you only select the mouth and only select the button that looks either like a ":)" or a ":D"
how do you get your mouth to not just stay open like you screaming the whole time while you talk??? for me it is either open when talking or closed when not no variation..... also wish i could have more blink animations cause i tied blink to my ears to twitch them but it happens at same time i blink and thats weird. but it is what it is.
You’ve gotta adjust your mic settings! So it’s NOT in the model editing menu, it’s on the main screen of the program (as if you were using it when in stream!) on the bottom right there’s two bars you can adjust for when it counts it as enough volume to cause your mouth to open, just drag those back and forth a bit until it looks right!
thanks. ive been messing with it and i cant find a place the looks any good... i think the lack of intermediate frames is whats doing it for me. its so abrupt in open close and no in-between frames. i wish it used a gif animation like the other app i was using but the other app didnt support transparent backgrounds and my hand drawn color pencil model dont play nice with green screens. v.v ill just have to search around at other apps i guess.@@AstralArtsYT
So you actually CAN add inbetweens now i think! it's using sprite sheets instead of gifs (which admittedly im not super familiar with) but i would check KaiaKairos's page for info about it!@@kainobeaner
@@AstralArtsYT thanks ill check it out :3
when i upload my pngs theyre so huge, does anyone know how i can scale them down???
You can scale up and down by holding ctrl and using your scroll wheel on your mouse!
My antivirus thinks that this program might be dangerous and now I'm a bit anxious about using it
some antiviruses will flag programs that do not have a known/verified manufacturer as dangerous (because it cannot be verified by them since they dont know the maker) it doesnt mean its a virus. You will likely get the same message for a lot of PNGtubing programs like veadotube as well.
@@AstralArtsYT I used veadotube before and I didn't had any issues like this. I just have to do my own research but thank you for your response!
Any Mac users here? Some reason I can not find the folder and it seems like my computer isn't allowing the microphone to be used, even though I am the administrator to my laptop.
I actually found out!! Mac users if your mac won't open the folder follow this
Library/Application Support/Godot/app_userdata/PNGTuberPlus
Because the life of me I couldn't find it! so I hope this helps any other Mac User!
- drags herself back - .... i am back with another issue... my audio apparently isn't going through... can someone help?
For the mic issue youll wanna open it in a terminal window, you can do so by clicking open package contents on the application or clicking open in terminal, you should be good for the mic issues
Can you please make me a pngtubr
Anytime I click add a new sprite i dont see my files to add to the program?
Have you made sure your files are all in .png format and actually in the program’s model file folder? I know it can be a little hard to navigate but you have to put them all in a specific folder for them to show up!
thanks, it worked :D
How can i use the png tuber for videos? I want to to put it on the corner but the border wont go away.
You need to make sure you're using something like OBS that has transparent video capture, and when you stream you just make sure you're not in the 'editor' mode of the pngtplus program, when in the editing sprite mode you will see a grey background, where as when you're in the recording mode you will have a transparent one!
@@AstralArtsYT the border is still not going away, even when outside of the editing mode, and it's visible over what im streaming. what do i do?
can you add gifs to the program? like for tail animations or smooth blinking
As far as I can tell, right now you can't. it would be really interesting if something like that got added in a future update.
Im making a png-tuber model by myself for my friend. She wont give me the files I need but im trying...
thanks!!!
how do i add a new imagie
The microphone won’t work for me at all.
I had this problem initially too, what's probably happening with you (if it's the same issue I had) is that it doesn't auto-select your mic in the program! just click on the microphone button and make sure the correct mic is selected, I know mine kept defaulting to the wrong one so It didn't work at first.
The mic does not work for me too! Tried both in Mac and PC 😭
@@AstralArtsYT yea I’ve tried this but I’m on Mac and it still won’t work…
@@59394eric yea I’ve tried so much but it just won’t work.. (on Mac)
I fix on the PC side that's the Antiviurs issue. I guess that is also a "security" or "privacy" issue on Mac.
awesome
Awesome
too bad the app uses over 70% of my RTX gpu and a ton of CPU, crashes and freezes often. Probably Godot's fault tbh
3:30 is a godot limitation
Was curious what size was your file you worked on and resolution?
My file size was 1000x1000 in 350 dpi! I actually normally work in 2000x2000 for Veadotube (and I drew it in this size as well) but then had to size it down when I went to import all the pieces! AFAIK there’s no way of resizing things in the program and my original size came out way too huge XD
What resolution do you save PNG images?
So I save mine bigger than recommended because I like to make it so my PNGs can also be used for things like advertisements and also just as art pieces. I believe the recommended is 750x750 pixels (and i would say 300 DPI for quality purposes) but I normally do 2000x2000 because it's the size I like drawing on XD
Thank you, the video is very useful. can't wait to try it but I have a question Can the PNG Tuber+ add expression? if some PNG tuber model has several expressions.
Sorry my bad English 🙏
how do i move it
What size is the png model normally?
720x720 is the ideal size, although I normally draw on a 2000x2000 canvas and size it down!
Would it he possible to turn a 3d into 2d?
If you saved your 3d model as 2D images, absolutely.
@@AstralArtsYT cool... how do I do that?
@@JunkerrVrprocess of making 2d images from a 3d model is called rendering. Good luck.
All i want from this program is to tell me how to record, i am such a newbie here so i'll need alot of help
So this program doesn’t actually record anything! You’ll need OBS or another screen recording software for it.
@@AstralArtsYT oh, thanks, I was trying to try something new, and this was the problem, thank you
CAN I GET ONE PLZ
the program is not user friendly
can you import a gif in the program?
I just tested this, and it doesn't look like you can right now! It would be interesting if you could, for sure.
that’s a vtuber not a pmgtuber lol
Actually, it’s both! PNGtuber’s are just a type of VTuber, and this model I’m explaining *IS* a pngtuber! My model is a live2D model, but the one I’m explaining how to make is a pngtuber.
@@AstralArtsYT live2d is vtuber. virtual. A png is a still frame, and this isn’t a still frame.
Do you do it for free
u look like my albino male oc from like +3 years ago