Yep I always do a stopper knot. Was told by my instructor at the time and what could happen if I didn't, as you've demonstrated, so its ingrained in me to do one.
Love that you're stressing the buddy check, it's something I'm mega pedantic on myself. Just like your mantra of "a not neat knot isn't a knot at all" there's the same to be said for buddy checks - you've got to do them PROPERLY, i.e. both give it your full attention. I've had a few too many times where I've spotted something I've done wrong myself, got a buddy check where they've had a look and said "yeah it's good" and I've then had to prompt them with "are you sure?" to get them to look properly and spot the error. I try to incorporate a "demo" into my checks (i.e. showing the rope going through waist+leg, demonstrating the screwgate is locked, showing the rope orientation in the device, yanking on the lead rope if I'm using an assisted brake device) but that doesn't work so well for knots and there's a danger I could pass on my assumptions (e.g. "see, it's tied right") onto them and bias their opinion. Have you got any good tips on how to make them as effective as possible?
You're not wrong, very easy to be blasé about buddy checks, even though they're so important! I'm not sure I have any good tips for the knots (I do the same as you on a Grigri though, good isn't it?!) I guess just by dialling neat knots right from the get go, the buddy check is easier, but I'll definitely give some thought to any prompts that might help...
Thanks for the video! I've stumbled over this issue when I moved to the UK from Germany as apparently in the UK they like to see the stopper knot whereas in Germany I was taught that the loose end of the rope just needs to be at least 15cm long and you would only ever tie a stopper (or whatever) if the loose end is too long, to prevent it slapping you in the face in case of a fall. In any case, I think you made a good point that whether or not you use a stopper knot, you should always buddy check. I found that it is slightly harder to buddy check the knot if the stopper knot is being tied so close to the figure 8 that it is obstructing the view. Often left me thinking "what is this mess?", but that is perhaps just because I was used to figure 8's without stoppers. I also made it a habit to check my own knot before I start climbing, to prevent things like a half-tied figure 8, or to make sure I have a proper double bowline when my partner is unable to tie one and therefore cannot properly check it.
Very interesting. I'm new to climbing and have a sailing background. I was bemused by the stopper knot. I cannot imagine a scenario where a figure of eight tied correctly could come undone. Not saying I couldn't get it wrong though. I love the buddy check system though. That makes a lot of sense.
A sailing figure of 8 is different to the purpose of THIS fig 8, where he should have routed the working end through the 8 in reverse, effectively making a double fig 8 with the loop through the harness. He should have shown what he was wanting to achieve…
no argument here from me, all good and i like the demo on non-rethreaded 8 with stopper, i know 2 people who have climbed like that - pre buddy checking being so common/popular...
Excellent advice, will be sure to teach the stopper to my 12 year old son. Great practice... I occasionally set up the ATC wrong to make sure he catches it, either not through the carabiner or rope wrong way round. We buddy check each other every climb, even after he just don’t the climb and only lowered him. Stopper knot, fantastic habit and good practice
Great video Jez :) In Poland we don't have to tie in stopper knot but the tail would have to be at least 10cm long. Personally I've been using bow line with a stopper knot haha easier to undo when you falling off constantly on a route. I do teach not often at the moment to tie in top bottom only beceause you've got only 1 hour to teach them belaying and tying in and there is lots of information to take in. Body check is a must but they might forget to do body check after session haha
What are your thoughts on badly tied stoppers? Ie a big gap between stopper and fig8? Other than being dangerous as the wrong strand could be clipped, in my experience they always seem to come undone too! I’d rather have no stopper than a badly tied stopper.
Is there an easy answer to why many people say it is not recommended to tie in with a bowline knot when trad climbing? I use it a lot for sport, and I have been told that when you use it in trad at the anchor, it doesn't respond as well when loaded in three directions, although I've never had issues with that.
As long as all three strands are loaded it should be pretty good. If it's ring loaded though, i.e., two things are pulling away from each other inside the loop while the standing part of the rope isn't loaded at all, it's not particularly hard to make a bowline fail. In that configuration it's a loop closed with what folks sometimes call an "anti-lapp" knot - a potentially-slipping erroneous version of a lapp knot.
I was initially told or maybe read/viewed that it's better to tie your figure8 then thread it upwards, the logic being you can see that you have correctly routed the rope without the knot inhibiting your view. Unfortunately when I did my belay test indoors the (dummy)instructor didn't thread his correctly and the knot was a shambles which I picked him up on both points. I say unfortunately because I don't think he intended to do it (genuinely 😕) but the other guy noticed I'd spotted it... So what's the logic of threading down rather than up?
It really doesn't matter to be honest, as long as you buddy check. The idea is that if you go top down and get distracted and miss the leg loops, at least you're into the waist part. If you go bottom up and the same happens, you are left only on the legs and more like to then go upside down if you fall off. Like I say, it really doesn't matter if you buddy check.
Watched this older video of yours because I was hoping to hear clarification on one point - why does the figure 8 need to be dressed well/neat? I have a mate that knows how to tie a figure of 8 but he never dresses it well - he always gets the outer loop half twisted. I try to tell him to properly dress his knot, but it would be much more effective if I could tell him why, and frankly without knowing the reasons why I'm not convinced it's worth annoying him every time we do a buddy check - the knot would definitely hold a fall! Thanks!
Well dressed knots stay done up better, but come undone more easily when they've been loaded, are actually stronger, are less likely to roll open and it just kind of sets the standard in my mind. Neat knots neat mind!
I think it’s also a bit easier to check visually that a knot has been tied correctly when it’s dressed. When they’re sloppy, it’s tougher to see what’s going on.
I can't afford to tie a stopper because sometimes we need the extra foot of rope to finish the pitch. Some people say tying one is free, but if both climbers do it I figure it costs us about two dollars worth of rope! 😂
There is no need for a stopper knot on a figure of 8. It's an auto locking knot. The most important thing is properly dressing & tightening your knots. If you prefer using a boline then a stopper knot is absolutely required.
Do you tie a stopper? Always? Sometimes? Never?
Yep I always do a stopper knot. Was told by my instructor at the time and what could happen if I didn't, as you've demonstrated, so its ingrained in me to do one.
Nope
I don't figure 8, I double thread a bowline
Always, because I was taught to.
Great explanation of why beginners should be taught it :) love the videos.
Depends on the tail. If I have too much I like to tie one to get it out of the way
Love that you're stressing the buddy check, it's something I'm mega pedantic on myself. Just like your mantra of "a not neat knot isn't a knot at all" there's the same to be said for buddy checks - you've got to do them PROPERLY, i.e. both give it your full attention. I've had a few too many times where I've spotted something I've done wrong myself, got a buddy check where they've had a look and said "yeah it's good" and I've then had to prompt them with "are you sure?" to get them to look properly and spot the error. I try to incorporate a "demo" into my checks (i.e. showing the rope going through waist+leg, demonstrating the screwgate is locked, showing the rope orientation in the device, yanking on the lead rope if I'm using an assisted brake device) but that doesn't work so well for knots and there's a danger I could pass on my assumptions (e.g. "see, it's tied right") onto them and bias their opinion.
Have you got any good tips on how to make them as effective as possible?
You're not wrong, very easy to be blasé about buddy checks, even though they're so important!
I'm not sure I have any good tips for the knots (I do the same as you on a Grigri though, good isn't it?!) I guess just by dialling neat knots right from the get go, the buddy check is easier, but I'll definitely give some thought to any prompts that might help...
Thanks for the video! I've stumbled over this issue when I moved to the UK from Germany as apparently in the UK they like to see the stopper knot whereas in Germany I was taught that the loose end of the rope just needs to be at least 15cm long and you would only ever tie a stopper (or whatever) if the loose end is too long, to prevent it slapping you in the face in case of a fall.
In any case, I think you made a good point that whether or not you use a stopper knot, you should always buddy check. I found that it is slightly harder to buddy check the knot if the stopper knot is being tied so close to the figure 8 that it is obstructing the view. Often left me thinking "what is this mess?", but that is perhaps just because I was used to figure 8's without stoppers.
I also made it a habit to check my own knot before I start climbing, to prevent things like a half-tied figure 8, or to make sure I have a proper double bowline when my partner is unable to tie one and therefore cannot properly check it.
My pleasure!
Very interesting. I'm new to climbing and have a sailing background. I was bemused by the stopper knot. I cannot imagine a scenario where a figure of eight tied correctly could come undone. Not saying I couldn't get it wrong though. I love the buddy check system though. That makes a lot of sense.
A sailing figure of 8 is different to the purpose of THIS fig 8, where he should have routed the working end through the 8 in reverse, effectively making a double fig 8 with the loop through the harness. He should have shown what he was wanting to achieve…
That smoke alarm! ha ha
Haha!
“Stopper knots save lives”...SO DO FIRE ALARMS!!!😝k x
it's a smoke alarm :P
@@CheeseNoodleOZ well, it will be if it ever gets a new battery in it! ;-j
no argument here from me, all good and i like the demo on non-rethreaded 8 with stopper, i know 2 people who have climbed like that - pre buddy checking being so common/popular...
Excellent advice, will be sure to teach the stopper to my 12 year old son. Great practice... I occasionally set up the ATC wrong to make sure he catches it, either not through the carabiner or rope wrong way round. We buddy check each other every climb, even after he just don’t the climb and only lowered him. Stopper knot, fantastic habit and good practice
Glad you liked it!
Always do a stopper just like the knowing I have two great knots. So I can focus on the climb and gear placements.
Definitely worth sticking with it for the head game!
Great video Jez :) In Poland we don't have to tie in stopper knot but the tail would have to be at least 10cm long. Personally I've been using bow line with a stopper knot haha easier to undo when you falling off constantly on a route. I do teach not often at the moment to tie in top bottom only beceause you've got only 1 hour to teach them belaying and tying in and there is lots of information to take in. Body check is a must but they might forget to do body check after session haha
Thanks very much! Always interesting to hear what goes on in other countries 😀
What are your thoughts on badly tied stoppers? Ie a big gap between stopper and fig8? Other than being dangerous as the wrong strand could be clipped, in my experience they always seem to come undone too! I’d rather have no stopper than a badly tied stopper.
Badly tied stoppers, or gaps between them have no place in climbing - disgusting! On a course I wouldn't let it happen.
Is there an easy answer to why many people say it is not recommended to tie in with a bowline knot when trad climbing? I use it a lot for sport, and I have been told that when you use it in trad at the anchor, it doesn't respond as well when loaded in three directions, although I've never had issues with that.
People will say it's due to that three way loading... realistically I don't see that being a problem because the forces would have to be massive.
As long as all three strands are loaded it should be pretty good. If it's ring loaded though, i.e., two things are pulling away from each other inside the loop while the standing part of the rope isn't loaded at all, it's not particularly hard to make a bowline fail. In that configuration it's a loop closed with what folks sometimes call an "anti-lapp" knot - a potentially-slipping erroneous version of a lapp knot.
I was initially told or maybe read/viewed that it's better to tie your figure8 then thread it upwards, the logic being you can see that you have correctly routed the rope without the knot inhibiting your view. Unfortunately when I did my belay test indoors the (dummy)instructor didn't thread his correctly and the knot was a shambles which I picked him up on both points. I say unfortunately because I don't think he intended to do it (genuinely 😕) but the other guy noticed I'd spotted it... So what's the logic of threading down rather than up?
It really doesn't matter to be honest, as long as you buddy check.
The idea is that if you go top down and get distracted and miss the leg loops, at least you're into the waist part. If you go bottom up and the same happens, you are left only on the legs and more like to then go upside down if you fall off.
Like I say, it really doesn't matter if you buddy check.
Always with a stopper for me... it's free and it takes than 5 seconds so why not?
Watched this older video of yours because I was hoping to hear clarification on one point - why does the figure 8 need to be dressed well/neat? I have a mate that knows how to tie a figure of 8 but he never dresses it well - he always gets the outer loop half twisted. I try to tell him to properly dress his knot, but it would be much more effective if I could tell him why, and frankly without knowing the reasons why I'm not convinced it's worth annoying him every time we do a buddy check - the knot would definitely hold a fall! Thanks!
Well dressed knots stay done up better, but come undone more easily when they've been loaded, are actually stronger, are less likely to roll open and it just kind of sets the standard in my mind. Neat knots neat mind!
@@JBMountainSkills Thanks!
I think it’s also a bit easier to check visually that a knot has been tied correctly when it’s dressed. When they’re sloppy, it’s tougher to see what’s going on.
So just double checking, do I need to do buddy checks or is a stopper knot enough?! :D
Haha!
I can't afford to tie a stopper because sometimes we need the extra foot of rope to finish the pitch. Some people say tying one is free, but if both climbers do it I figure it costs us about two dollars worth of rope! 😂
There is no need for a stopper knot on a figure of 8. It's an auto locking knot. The most important thing is properly dressing & tightening your knots. If you prefer using a boline then a stopper knot is absolutely required.