Game of Thrones/ASOIAF Theories | Mysteries, Myths, and Motives | Ned's Bastards
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Mysteries, Myths, and Motives Part 3: Ned Stark's Bastards.
Theories and analysis of A Song of Ice and Fire using text evidence and quotes from George RR Martin.
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The first clue that G.R.R.M had ever provided us with to make us realize that Jon is indeed Ned's first born is in AGOT, Bran I. This is what Bran thinks as soon as Jon brought Ghost forth to them: "Bran thought it curious that this pup alone would have opened his eyes while the others were still blind."
This statement clearly proves that Ghost is older than the rest of the pups, since pups open their eyes typically during the first 1-3 week. So, it begs the question: is it just a coincidence that Jon Snow gets to keep the oldest of the pups or is G.R.R.M hinting at something else?
its funny that you say that...we did a patreon exclusive podcast a few weeks ago that came to that exact conclusion...Ghost is the oldest, and given that George has said the direwolves are representative of their perspective owners, that would be a strong indicator that Jon is also the oldest
And the last clue GRRM has ever provided was when he explicitly stated on his blog (shortly after the season finale) that Jon Snow is Lyanna's son. Ned and Lyanna: doing incest before the Lannisters made it cool. That's why he views Cersei and Jaime so negatively! They remind him of himself :)
BoxStudioExecutive i don't believe jon is lyanna and neds but lyanna and rheagers but this is super confusing to me because jon is said all the time that he looks like ned
@@tinafight4979 That was sarcasm.
BoxStudioExecutive lol no sarcasm / i sometimes get confused with all these different theories / i believe jon is neds and asharas /and so aegon the griff is lyanna and rheagers / so why is varys saying that he changed elias and rheagers baby with a flea bottom baby/ see confused because i thought that varys baby is the griff a little help
Man if this theory is true it would be ironic because catelyn was worried about jon usurping her children when in truth they were usurping him
LOL, "My Poor Life Choices" "A tell all memoir By Theon Greyjoy" That's where I lost it🤣🤣😂😂
that's one of our favorite GOT related memes ever
Me too 😂😂😂
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand All choices that were open to Theon could be considered bad.
Ned loved Jon Arryn so much he named his firstborn son after him
+scottie16976 exactly.l
scottie16976 Jon Arryn was like a second father to ned, when ned was 8 he was send to the vale, he meet Robert there and the two of them became best friends.
he named him Jon after John Arryn but Robb is not short for Robert,it is his given name not a nickname.the list of names at the end of the books,Ned is Eddard and Bran is Brandon but Robb is Robb. just a thought. i am loving this channel and ive been through your vids twice now and ive got my books stacked up beside me and a notepad with some scribbles on it lol thank you for making me look at these(my favourite books)in a different light.bloodraven being a captive and the children being the real enemy blew my mind having already been blown by (where you think the kingsgaurd are now).im holding out hope that the show goes one way and the books go way in a different direction so as not to spoil the end. keep up the good work
thank you so much...that's exactly how we read the books the second time...we ended up with so many notes we needed to make word docs for each topic, character, storyline , and theory, etc because when you really look closely at the books, there is so many hints, clues, and perfectly symbolic stuff that to keep it all straight you have to....and that Robb not being short for Robert is something we looked at for a long time trying to figure out what it meant....if you have any ideas please share
And Jon Arryn loved King Robert so much that he named his the only, sickly son after him.
Lol that Robert impression is spot on!!!
thank you...she practically forced me to do it...I used to annoy her by having entire conversations with her in Robert's voice, but I eventually got ok at it and her and her mother ganged up on me and I ended up doing it
Lol it was worth it tell her I said thank you for forcing you haha now it's your turn to get revenge and make her do one for a future video lol
I have recently come to realize that I can't get her to do anything she doesn't want to, but I can try...now she wants me to sing the Reynes of Castermire (I don't sing) for our Tywin videos
Looool tell her "right if I'm
Doing that you've got to do an impression of cersei" or even better Robert 😂 that would be cute
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand wouldn't Stanis know Arthur Dayne?
Another nail in the Tully brother's relationship's coffin could've also been Hoster forcing Lysa to abort via tansy and then forcing a clearly traumatized Lysa to marry.
The most likely tbh. Or else why specifically go to serve lysa
@@gas467 Hoster's done some seriously shady shit in his time. Why wasn't Edmure married? He was the sole heir and in his twenties, but unwed. A fall from a horse could end their house.
@@jacobenke7936 he probably had his own beef with his father. Dude is a real piece of shit too. Honestly he should've just forced peter to marry his daughter. Instead of selling her off to an old man who couldn't produce.
@@jacobenke7936Yup. If he was the sole heir, any head of house (or Roman term Paterfamilias) would have taken that as the first issue at hand.
Is it really so hard to accept that Ned is better at The Game than he seems?
We also think Ned was a little better at the game than he let on...he had a plan that would have worked if Catelyn didn't mess it all up by taking Tyrion
I really hate how many people (both IRL and in-story) disregard Ned.
@@darylchurch2115 It's not a disregard, he just repeatedly places Robert's feelings over the wellbeing of his own family, and they suffer for it.
yes
It's clear that the show has Jon as being Rhaegar and Lyanna's. But god I want this theory to be true, at least in the books. I feel like the show skimmed over a lot of Ned and Jon's relationship, and this would bring them closer in a poetic way. The one thought to be a bastard is the truest born child of them all.
Yup. RLJ is just too bland, flavorless and boring to be true. I mean, Martin can still F it up and make it canon, but... That would be too close to Tolkien's trope-making, somehow, in a way that it's so predictable and straightforward, it's boooo-ring; while I though Martin wanted to stray away from this kind of storytelling, to be different ;)
Stark: "I name my 1st born, even if illegitimate, after my tutor"
Dayne: "I nickname my 1st born and heir after the man who killed my brother, the champion of my family, and caused my sister to commit suicide"
yeah, R+L=J really sounds strange
Ned Dayne's convo with Arya is actually the exact spot that we stopped and started the books over...we read the books two summers ago and had heard previously that R+L=J and we believed it right up to that point...we looked at each other and were like...ok, this kid's name is NED Dayne, and he just clearly said that that purple eyed girl from the Knight of the Laughing tree story was his aunt and she and Ned were in love before Robert's rebellion
You could explain Dayne"s decision as one of political expedience though, them demonstrating that they are loyal to Roberts regime, by naming their heir after Robert"s BFF.
@@michalsoukup1021 That makes really little sense even politically, and sounds like a reach.
@@lordcreganstark9747 Except that the spears of Dorne fought upon the Trident. Not all of them, to be sure, but for a house not to answer the call would have been pretty sus, and Doran isn't the kind of man to overlook that when his sister's life was at stake. Personally I wish Oberyn would have been in Westeros at the time, it would have made things more interesting (even though he sleeps with women he shouldn't and steals their daughters)
@@jacobenke7936 So? Robert pardoned basically everyone. It was Stannis that didn't want to hand out pardons. Robert even sent his personal Maester to heal Barriston Selmy the guy who killed a dozen of his personal friends. Robert would never hold it against someone for fighting well or fighting for the lord they served. His hatred was specifically for the Targs. More specifically Rhaegar. But if you cousin kidnapped your betrothed... Ya you'd hate him too. (Yes I know most believe Lyanna ran away with Rhaegar. It wasn't common knowledge that she chose to leave.)
It's hard not to like a well constructed theory that goes against that R+L=J tripe. Good job!
thank you
Interesting. Ned is known to have a bastard son. Yet Tywin knew if Rob got Jayne pregnant he would married her because he is his father son. But why would he think that considering Ned has a bastard son? Unless Jon Snow is not a bastard .
I prefer this theory because it makes Ned an actual human being.
Yes. The show forgot him seasons ago, but in the books he is alive in every chapter.
because being an uncle risking his life keeping a major secret of raising his sister's child with rhaegar is what, too boring?
@@HelenA-vz5wy It makes him too white, which is something George doesn't do. Also there is no reason not to say she's dead in that case. Ned can't give a name because calling her by her wedded name would start a whole lot of shit. "Ned Stark could never lie, for love or honor"
I'm not certain if the theory will be proven true in Winds, but it would insert some serious drama into the Stark situation, as well as removing one of Littlefinger's biggest trump cards (assuming Robb's will didn't do that already) I also hope that if OotGH are right about most of their theories, we get a moment where Jon realizes how much he hates Ned, even if it's just for one night before he puts on big boy pants.
What I have always found weird is how Ned always seems to be so hard on himself all the time due to him "cheating" on Cat and having a bastard, but if Jon is not Ned's son, why does ned seem to ALWAYS be so remorseful about this subject?
Because he really does have a child with Ashara Dayne.
Something tells me you’re going to love the video we’re going to have online in a few hours
nobody cared about poor rikkon...he was just wandering around the crypts with his wolf
+James Elliott lmao
The Order of the Green Hand then they seen him with ramsey then they were like 'hey there's rikkon, oh he's dead anyway'
The Order of the Green Hand did they even feed him?
hahahaha, doubt it. i'll have maury call CPS.
The Order of the Green Hand. lmao rotf
Ned is truly a Stark. He is another king who knelt. This time for marriage.
very true.
Guys... in the case the books don’t actually turn out this freaking good, I’m going to petition you two to make all of your theories reality, and finish the books, following your theoretical story line. Thanks! Lol
Sansa pretending to be a bastard is also a huge clue.
I think another clue is Ned's relation with The Seven. Ned obviously believes in the Old Gods, so when it comes to bows and such, he does it in front of a weirwood.
As far as I can recall, Ned has only done two things in front of The Seven:
- Declaring Joffrey as Robert's true heir at swordpoint in front of the Sept of Baelor and in "the name of The Seven" (clearly lying in order to protect Sansa and Arya)
- Marrying Caitlyn
So I think he married Ashara in front of a weirwood and later, in order to get Hoster's support, married Caitlyn but he did in front of The Seven because he was already married at the eyes of the Old Gods, his true gods.
So basically, in the eyes of the old gods of the North, Jon is the true Stark. And when both he and Ned left Winterfell, there were no longer any "true Starks" in Winterfell, and that's when all hell broke lose.
I subbed for one reason. You are the only GOT people, other than myself, that feel Cat Tully is a horrible person! The way she blames a child (little jonny snow) for Ned's cheating is deplorable. It goes against the principles of nobility.
+Bp FourLife Thank you. She's even worse than that. We'll get the video out in a few weeks
That's not true. I don't think Teflon TV likes her either, and maybe one other GOT YTer i listen to.
Bp FourLife I never particularly LIKED her, but I didn't hate her. After watching their videos on "why catelyn sucks", I have a different view of her. She does so many idiotic things that directly ead to the WOTFKings that you can't just explain her actions away with "she was going through a lot" like I've heard others say. The taking of Tyrion and subsequent losing of him were some of the dumbest moves in the whole books.
Probably the only character in the books I just couldn't stand. I mean even Jaime has some redeeming qualities....
Bp FourLife exactly I don't care for her either and our really can't stand her in the white princess she's even worse
Isn’t it implied in the books that the reason the Blackfish refused to marry any of the Highborn ladies Hoster pushed at him was because he was in love once? If that’s true than it would make even more sense that Bryndon would be appalled by his brother’s actions because he would be able to relate to Young Ned.
People have looked at Brynden's refusal to marry, and theorized that he was gay lol
@@BruhMoment-mn9kn or it could be both! Maybe the Blackfish was in love with a Man (maybe another knight) but Hoster (being a worshipper of the Seven) forbid the relationship and the Blackfish decided to get payback by refusing any and all marriages Hoster would try to force on him.
@@BruhMoment-mn9kn Maybe or maybe not. Either way that would answer the question.
For me the main appeal of N+A=J (aside from it making Ned Stark more human) is that it opens up the possibility that Jon could one day meet his mother, after everything he’s been through he deserves one moment of happiness and what would make him more happy than finally meeting the woman that’s been on his mind since he could walk? whereas with R+L=J Lyanna and Rhaegar are dead and honestly Jon has no reason to care about them (if anything he’d probably hate them for causing the deaths of possibly millions of people just so they could fuck).
That would be nice 🤧
With all the horrors of ASOIAF, that would be such a beautiful moment
Not just so they can fuck lol. Rhaegar fucked lyanna so jon can become the promised prince and save the world from the others
@@mosabhussein7519 if you destroy the world in the process can you really say that you are saving it?
If this theory is true (which I 100% think so), then it makes you wonder. How would the northern lords react if they found out that Jon was actually Ned's trueborn son with Ashara?
Lol, I don't know if this is foreshadowing or not, but Littlefinger calls Sansa a "snow maid" in the last Sansa chapter of ASOS.
2 points. First: the Blackfish should have gone to serve at Winterfell and made a connection with Jon if only to piss off his brother.
Second: Ned knows exactly what Catelyn would do if she found out the truth he just doesn't want to admit it.
Yeah the annotations kind of make it really more clear. Also makes me despise Cat more.
Although I disagree with most your theories you guys make a thought provoking argument and I appreciate you guys do a good job of supporting it with text.
Darryl Hall
My question is....how is it that Lyanna gives a child to Eddark, who turns out to be J.S.?
Michael Wade I'm pretty sure they go off the books, and I haven't read them in a few years so I'm rusty, but I don't think it's in the books we have so far.
Zyz zyz because for years Hoster had been trying to force Bryndon to marry someone with powerful connections but Bryndon refused to obey him every single time (that’s how he got the name Blackfish, Hoster called him the Black Sheep of the family) and then he had to watch his brother force a 16 year old boy (who had already been through hell and back for the past few months) to annul his brief yet happy marriage to the woman he loved so Hoster can get both his daughters in prominent positions with the rebels. Or long story short: Bryndon Tully is a good man that does not like seeing other people get hurt because of his brother’s greed and stupidity (it could also be that the Blackfish was able to relate to Ned because I think it’s implied in the books that he was in love once too and that is why he refused to marry anyone Hoster told him to).
by this point i am convinced of N+A+J in the books
A fisherman's daughter who now resides on a river boat lol
I love your Robert Baratheon voice; sounds just like him 🙂
Thank you so much. M’lady and her mother convinced me to do it and I’ve had mixed feelings about it ever since so comments like yours make me feel better about it
I think you have missed out on something: As Maester at Riverrun, wouldn't Lewin have been a party to the Ned/John Arryn marriage negotiations to Catelyn and Lysa? If so, and, as you propose in the Catelyn Sucks video series, Maester Lewin conspired with Catelyn to coerce Ned to King's Landing and John Snow to the Wall - wouldn't it then be possible, even likely, that Catelyn eventually did become aware that Ned was married John's mother, and that her offspring would therefore be illegitimate heirs? Her POV states clearly, by taking the black, John Snow would never be a threat to to her children's futures or be able to make a claim against her grandchildren's rights. My opinion? She totally knows.
Really love your work, definitely puts focus and clarity (as promised) to those nagging suspicions and wait-a-minute-moments so often encountered on thorough (and multiple) re-reads.
thank you so much...we did allude to the idea that it seems likely that Catelyn knows, which is why she sees Jon as such a threat to her children even though she has 5 children ahead of him in the line of succession
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand why didn't Ned ever check that rancid woman on her behavior?
ok im sold on N+A=J , it makes so much sense once you see all the videos, I was on L+R= J waggon but the arguments you give are so compelling. Im rereading the books because of you guys by the way, Im in ACOK. Also Ned and Ashara traveling through the mountains of the moon and washing up at sweetsister kinda reminds me of how jon snow fell in love with ygritte during a similar perilous journey, which only serves to help your theory in my opinion. The part about the three kingsguard knights being alive is really crazy to contemplate but it would indeed be amazing if it ends up being true, personally i never understood how ned and his companions outfought those three even with the numerical advantage they had, just arthur alone would slice them up easily, i think even jamie tells loras that arthur would carve up the new kingsguard with his left hand while taking a piss with his right, and on top of that oswell and gerold were knights of similar martial prowess, Ned and his companions were average at best, sure Ned was a great battle commander but that does not make him rival swordsmanship with the best the realm had to offer or any of their companions for that matter, howland and the poison dart sure might have worked but even so dispossing of the three even with the numbers on their sides seems unlikely. Also Edrics nickname being Ned and all that part of the argument does kind of work against Ned and his friends killing the 3 knights.Personally I hated Catelyn way before I saw your videos on her, but she never felt right as the spouse of Ned in my opinion, jon was easily one of my favorite character from the first book and the way she treated him just made me hate her, plus all the stupid things she did as well hahah. Ok I wrote way too much, but keep it up I love your videos, i will spread the word about the order of the green hand!
like your theories more than the show's actual plotlines. seems the show is trying to placate the L+R=J theorists. your Ned fits the character better.
Thank you so much...agreed about the show
Guys I think your right. That is why the crypts keep calling to him, because he’s the true heir
HAHAHAHA! The awesome Mark Addy impression alone is worth a "like" on this video.
This theory explains Caitlyn’s anger and disdain for Jon more. If she caught wind of any of those negotiations and likely she had that Ned was happily married to one of the most beautiful women in westeros and forced to marry her after losing the man she wanted and there’s a child born of that who deep in the pit of her stomach she probably knows could be the fruit of a loving marriage. Jon is actually a huge threat to her whole life.
This video answers the two most glaring unasked questions in GoT:
Why is Ned considered honorable?
Why did the Blackfish leave the service of Riverrun?
Because Ned is unquestionably honorable. That’s not the same thing as being perfect but he’s definitely honorable. It seems to me that Ned was in a terrible position and made the best choice he could. The choice that gave him and everyone he cared about the best chance to survive
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand Why not put Cat aside after the War? What are the Tullys gonna do? That would be far more honorable than popping out four extra kids to usurp your firstborn even further. If Jon learns the truth, I hope he's pissed, and thinks about Ned taking a walk off the top of the Wall. He won't think much better of Ashara, raising another kid while he had no clue who she was. It's a terrible thing to do to your child. Jon is not an honorable himbo, this will piss him off.
So when Tywin stated that Robb was his father's son do you think that he knew about Ned's relationship with Ashara?
We are like 99.5% sure that Tywin knows everything...that's why he doesn't have POV chapters
Or maybe he just meant he woud do the "honorable " thing like his father. Jeynes mother drugs her to keep her from pregnancy, there are theories they drugged Rob to let Jeyne seduce him. I like your theory but there are holes. If Tywin knew Ned married Ashara, dont you think he'd have outted him about it once War broke out? He'd at least spread the rumor, even after Ned died. Robb was winning all the battles as King in the North. Tywin would have outted him as a bastard, that way his Noble men wouldnt follow a Bastard
Ned wasnt the type of guy to back Renly (who everyone knew would be a better King than Stannis) bc it wasnt right. You really think he'd marry 2 women and allow 5 of his kids to be considered bastards? I love the Ned/Ashara aspect in the book and dont believe R+L bc its too obvious. Just dont think you can take a phrase like that from Tywin and make those assumptions. Great vids tho. Youve won me over
@Drew Novack, ur right it’s not a given that Tywin knew, but Tywin is a very powerful rich man whose well informed and he has Pycelle. And if we believe this theory, the people in the fingers, sistertons and white harbor saw Ned n Ashara 2gether (don’t know it’s her, but she’s gorgeous n 1 of a kind and unforgettable, Pycelle/Tywin having herd about the rumours surrounding their relationship and the stillborn, can draw their own conclusions. Also for the negotiations for a Tully-Arryn-Stark-Baratheon alliance, there was Luwin, Blackfish, Holster, Jon Arryn + 2nd in command, Ned + 2nd in command (I think it was Lord Dustin, since he took him to the tower of joy). I mean most of them didn’t blab, but what about the ones that r not directly related to Tully-Starks? A family in debt, who sees it bought back by the Lannister’s? Also, Tywin was not going to rock the boat, he just got Cersei to marry the king. And after during the war of the 5 kings, nah, he used the information to win the war, but to reveal. He knew himself that Cersei kids were twincests bastards, the books are not the show. He knew his kids very well, what were their strengths and weaknesses
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand is there going to be a video on this?! It just clicks lol
Hello 😁 I have red the books now three times and I find every time something new. I have always wondered why Dayne's family is mentioned in the books for many times but Martin writes just few thing there and there. Why was it so important to Ned to make he's journey to house Dayne's. Why Ashara kills herself...In the books Sir Baristan Selmy thinks and regrets one thing, that he never told Ashara Dayne that he has always loved her. This happens just before the battle of Mereen. So that is not answer why Ashara will do such thing to herself. Ned was very honored man with always good intensions. Maybe Ashara just didn't want to live after hearing that Ned must merry Catlyn. I don't think that we have seen the last of Ned. He must have some woolf blood because the Stark children have it in their veins so powerful like Jon, Arya and Bran. I have make the same conclusion that Rob's Jayne was a spy for Tywin Lannister. Why else in the books Rob's woolf don't like Jayne Westerling and why Westerling's was pardon after the red wedding. Keep on digging the truth!! Your videos are good, very good! I will keep watching them. All the love ❤ Kaisa from Finland (sorry for typos)
Thank you very much...Check out our Jon Snow's Mother videos if you want to know what happened to Ashara
Also, when Catelyn remembers their wedding night, she describes Ned as being quiet and somber. As if he wasn't happy about it, or with himself.
In all fairness, the two of them didn't know each other, and Catelyn was supposed to marry his brother. Rather awkward all around.
I second the reply. He was marrying a woman he'd never met in the place of the brother she loved. If that's not awkward I don't know what is. (Also, said brother and his father had recently been horribly murdered) Mormont's raven knew that Jon was born a king. Y'all should too.
@@jacobenke7936 Esmure married a woman he never saw before and in a middle of a war, watched many people die,his father just died…yet he wasnt somber etc
People even tend to want to marry more during war, we can see that in our own world currently
@@hypatiakovalevskayasklodow9195 that's not s good argument. Just because one person wasn't somber on their wedding night, and they had been through a lot of bad stuff, doesn't mean that somebody else who's gone through the same things is going to act the same way. People act differently.
i always thought Jon was older than Rob. Jon was home at winterfell before Cathlynn and Rob came to winterfell.
Brilliant video guys, thank you
+Secrets of the Citadel Thank you so much. Coming from someone such as yourself that really means a lot to us
The Order of the Green Hand you have presented an excellent case, I've looked into this a lot and am a firm believer of r + l = j. But you really got me thinking, so now I'm back to the drawingboard lol
Secrets of the Citadel , I ve read the books and watched the show and was having the same internal struggle about Jons parentage. I've concluded that the show is taking one simple direction and outcome, R+L=J. The books, as we know are much more in depth, to say the least. Books. Ned married and conceived Jon, war broke out, Hoster Tully pretty much forced jon arryn to marry liza, and Ned to marry catelyn as a condition to give men in support of Roberts rebellion. Blackfish denounced Hoster, Ashara died, lyanna and rhaegar had Aegon. We will have 2 separate stories when all is said and done! That's why we can't fully reconcile the show and books about Jons parentage. Thoughts?
Ned first married Ashara, after tourney at harrenhall. Jon was conceived. Then Ned was basically forced to marry catelyn to get tulley support for Robert and abandoned Ashara. This makes all catelyns Stark children the bastards, and Jon the only true born stark. She and maester luwin became aware of this and got Jon sent to the wall, first chapter game of thrones books.
Donna marthasfriend interesting!! Where's Aegon then?? Where did Ned hide that baby and under what name? Thoughts?? (I have to go back to the books, lol)
I have seen a lot of stupid and far-fetched theories of ASOIAF and I must say, your channel has the most amazing theories with the best reasoning. Thank you!
the starks need to go to the maury show...you are not the father, not the father, not the father etc lol
+James Elliott hahahaha I love it, they definitely do. Who is your daddy and what does he do?
The Order of the Green Hand i can see cat pointing out all the black haired kids on the screen and running out when ned talks about the red haired ones
+James Elliott hahahaha that's great. Then Howland reed comes out as the surprise guest. There would be security team on hand for the filming of that episode
The Order of the Green Hand lol follow up show and all the potential fathers show up even hodor
hodor
What irritates me most about the RLJ theory is really the fans. Some of them are so obnoxious and intentionally ambivalent to any alternative theories despite the clearly immutable facts. I just need Winds/Dream to come out and put this theory to rest lol.
catelyn never even had much interaction with arya
17:06
Actually, assuming Jon was not Ned's son,at first when I read that passage in the books it made no sense to me. But when I did a double take and placed Jon as his bastard as in the books , some light was shed and I carried on with it. Given the times Ashara was mentioned along with Ned, one cannot simply ignore the possible relationship ( and a baby) between them. Now with another possibility that Jon was infact the true heir, the passage took a whole new meaning and I cannot express how right that seems . Thank you.
Fuck, this makes so much more sense.
I'm speechless. I just watched all your videos today and I was never fully convinced that R+L!=J until now. I read all the hints throughout the books and even saw other video theories, but you guys managed to drive home the point like none before.
Thank you for all the great work and am I forever a fan of your channel. I look forward to your future videos.
thank you :) we appreciate it. we're just glad that people are enjoying them, and that we aren't the only ones who think outside the R+L=J box.
Very well researched and clearly made points. I suspect that, for the books, you have the truth of it but the TV is taking a different path, for simplicity's sake. I don't think the TV show has enough time to play out the whole sequence.
You have a great understanding of the writing, a pleasure to watch. Thanks.
Thank you very much...the only way I think the TV show can bring this all in is if they try to repeat the shock value of last season's bringing Jon back to life twist after confirming he was dead and never coming back by introducing Aegon. In Episode 10, they did two scenes that could just as easily be referring to Aegon as they did to Jon and Dany (the TOJ scene that cut straight to Jon's face, and Varys' Dorne scene where he said fire and blood and it cut to Dany). When I think about how much money they made probably made last season when they shocked everyone by killing Jon at the end of Season 5 and brought him back, they may be looking at it as a good business model to shock the hell out of everyone. It would follow the same pattern; shock everyone in episode 10, confirm it on their website and with statements from executives, then cash in big-time when they release next season. Or they are just going to combine Aegon and Jon into one character so save $ and time
Thanks for the response, I wasn't expecting one. I think, with all the rest of the story to progress, to devote that much time to Jon would leave all other character arcs out in the cold. Your final statement I think covered it; it's all about bang for your buck. They're cashing in on Jon and the shocks will come down Little finger, always a banker and also Asha/Yara and Euron ......there is so much scope for putting a 'spanner in the works' there alone.
FWIW I don't think the leaked plot is real; I think it's a new strategy to blind everybody with too much info, as it's impossible to hide everything. A plausible fake plot is just the way to put everybody off the real scent. But that's just my opinion.
Keep up the good work folks, I look forward to your next posting :)
True. I think they "leaked it" because they have so many outdoor wide open sets they are shooting on that it is impossible to keep photographers at bay so they leaked a fake plot, full well knowing 99.9% of people are too lazy to try and figure out what is going on in the show based on the pictures that are leaking, to try and maintain some of the mystery
+The Order of the Green Hand
WOW! you are even crazier than Preston :D :D :D
and I LOVE it! :D
+Giorgi Kelbakiani thank you. Haha
Nice theory. Though, I think Tywin just meant Robb was honorable to fault like Ned.
Wow I love how u guys look outside the box and open my mind to new perceptions of this realm.
Thank you so much
If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon's life, against the children of her body?
In these two lines, Ned is weighing the same dilemma twice, each time from a different side of it. In the first sentence, he's thinking about what he would do if he were in Cersei's situation. You're right about that. But in the second sentence, he's putting himself on the other side of the same dilemma, into the shoes of the parent of the "child [he] did not know" from the first sentence. Ned using Jon's life for the dilemma sets Ned as 'the other parent in the dilemma,' the parent of the child who has to die so that another person's child may live.
So, in the second sentence, Catelyn is interchangeable with virtually any other mother, because Jon is still Ned's son either way, and because Jon is still not the other parent's son either way. Ned chose Catelyn instead of any other mother because Ned is trying to make the dilemma as difficult as possible for himself, in order to take Cersei's challenge seriously, and the dilemma is made more difficult if the woman is an especially good person (as contrasted with Cersei), and Ned considers Catelyn an especially good person.
The story in this form exposes an unflattering attitude in the RLJ audience. Because the RLJ interpretation of it was predicated on the attitude that a mother loves her children more than the father does. In that interpretation, the second sentence is read as though Ned chose Catelyn for this thought experiment because she loves her children more than Ned does. The "of her body" part baits that interpretation by highlighting that men don't birth children and women do, signaling to those readers who are inclined to believe a father loves his children less than a mother does that they should interpret the sentence in terms of men vs women rather than the gender-irrespective parent1 vs parent2. When you subtract the "of her body" part, you can see that Catelyn is not only interchangeable with any mother, but she's interchangeable with any parent, and that "the children of her body" part translates to "her biological children" rather than childbirth specifically.
In the NAJ interpretation you can also see that, in the first sentence, Ned is substituting Cersei's bastard children Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella with his own bastard children Robb, Sansa, Bran, Arya, and Rickon. And the substitution is easier for him than it seemed like it was in the RLJ interpretation of this passage because, like Cersei, Ned's children by Catelyn are actually bastards.
Ned's code of justice also shines through in the NAJ interpretation, because looking at a dispute from both sides before passing judgement is good justice, and it's seeded in the "look into his eyes and hear his final words" part of Ned's code. An injunction to try to see the sympathetic angle of the accused person's situation. The story in this form predicts a correlation between people who believe RLJ and people who don't recognize good justice when it's being done in front of them.
The story in this form also predicts a correlation between people who believe Catelyn is a bad person and people who don't recognize good justice when it's being done in front of them.
you veered off course with that one. It's has nothing to do with gender.
Ohhh, I just had a diabolical thought! What if Catelyn actually KNEW about Ned having already been married when they were married during the Rebellion?!
I can't imagine that either Ned or Hoster would've not told her during the negotiations at some point. These negotiations went on for a while, right? Meaning that they might've/probably took breaks in order to cool down their tempers and think rationally. During which time, Catelyn could've spoken with Ned, trying to get a feel of his character, and which he'd explain bluntly why he was against marrying her initially. He was already married, but he wouldn't say to whom.
And this would mean that she KNEW that Jon was the real and true heir of Winterfell, which is why she was so terrible towards him! And if Catelyn knew that, would it really be a stretch to think that she'd try to not think about it even years later?
i don't think she's even that smart. She thought littlefinger was obsessed with her even after 15+ yrs. She didn't even know her own sister was pregnant or that her father tricked her into an abortion. Mind you she wasn't allowed to play with anyone else other than who was in the castle...
catelyn also completely ignored rikkon while caring for bran
+James Elliott she is like no mother I have ever seen! Don't worry I'll be doing some serious Catelyn bashing in the video we're going to make. What kind of mother doesn't immediately go from kings landing back to Winterfell? She's a stone heart
The Order of the Green Hand and why did she burn the note before ned could see..smh
+James Elliott and so much more!!! Beast
The Order of the Green Hand i know why but she could've trusted her husband.
The Order of the Green Hand watch that scene again with her and robbs wife talking about motherhood....she was really physcotic about it
Another fantastic theory, I really love your work. Your videos are intelligent, thoroughly researched and rise above the crowd. It's nice to have another perspective rather than another R+L=J theory.
BTW I hate Catelyn too, she couldn't love a motherless child and made baby Jon suffer for the perceived sins of the father. Not cool.
I really look forward to all your videos.
Thank you...and it's good to know that we're not the only people who hate Catelyn...hopefully when we're done with her, more people will realize how evil she is
Now that she's Lady Stoneheart, the mask's 100% off. You see Catelyn for who she REALLY is. And that's a rather scary monster...
Just found your guys's videos last night and I am absolutely hooked! Keep up the amazing work!
Thank you so much
ANOTHER intriguing video! Thanks for posting! Happy New York, Green Hand!
+mrS Thank you and happy new year to you as well
This has to be one of the best, if not thee best theory of Jon Snows parentage and the Starks that I have ever heard( I've heard waaaayyyy too many). Great job 👍🏻👍🏻 two thumbs way up!!!
Thank you so much...that is much appreciated
The fact you guys came up with this theory is awesome I wish my brain worked like that! lol I'm not sure if you're right but its amazing you guys came up this theory and even trying to prove it in text You guys are smart as hell
Thank you. This theory started when we noticed that conversation between Ned and Robert that I read with the ridiculous Robert impression and grew from there over a few reads of the series where we noticed a few other things like Tywin thinking that if Ned slept with a high born maid he’d marry her
You guys are amazing! I really think your running in circles around all the other youtubers. Keep up the good work!
thank you...we'll try
I am rereading the series again because of you guys and now with totally new perspective. keep up the great work!
thank you so much! :D
Wow! You two blew me away again. I can't wait for the Catelyn hate video. Intrigued!
Your theory is interesting, but you don't address something important: the esteem held by the Daynes for Ned Stark. If Ned Stark had dishonored Ashara Dayne by marrying Catelyn, then why would the Daynes think so highly of Ned, going so far as to name the heir to Starfall Ned Dayne? That part of the story is the reason why I can't buy into N+A=J. To me, Ashara's death looks like a cover-up, like she's still alive, and that Ned is responsible for keeping that a secret, though we don't know why (I think this will soon be revealed, however). Why would the Dayne's not want to keep Ashara's son in Dorne? It makes no sense why they would let Ned take Jon (if Jon is Ashara's son) north to Winterfell, especially right after a war. In Dorne, bastards are more highly regarded, so Jon's life would have been better in Dorne than anywhere else.
We talk about that exact thing in N+A=J part 2 or 3
Good question😀🐺🐲❄
The Order of the Green Hand I'm sorry if you explained this previously, but if Jon and Val are twins, then why separate them?
Sita Bita the Twins were separated so that the Emperor and Darth Vader would have a harder time locating them.
Just wanted to let you guys know i really engoy and appreciate what you do forgot about you for a while , and as i haven't read the books yet its great as it just opens up loads more content THANKS
Another wonderful theory!!! Picks up on things in the book that stand out as odd when you are reading them, but there are so many characters and action that you just move on and assume you imagined it.
I have always been of the idea that Jon is Ned´s, that he is truly the heir to Winterfell. Great video, beautiful argumentation.
You certainly got a new subscriber! :) :)
thank you
I think it's safe to say that if the northern ever found out about all this, then they would immedietly do everything in their power to get Jon the fuck outta the Night Watch.
Another great video! I love how you guys take the time to read the text to draw the conclusions.
Thank you
As usual, I enjoyed it very much. Good job and keep them coming.
Thank you very much...we should have another one out by the weekend
So I am rereading the series. In Catelyn 1 of AGOT. Ned states “I ought to know better than to argue with a Tully”. I don’t recall this being mentioned in any of the videos I have watched of yours.
What are your thoughts. Me being a believer that N+A=J, makes me think this has to do with Ned being forced to marry Catelyn, with the theory that he was actually secretly married to Ashara and Hoster forced him to set her aside to gain support form Riverrun.
Am I reaching or is it possible that line holds some weight.
oh man I love your theories congratulations for you guys
Thanks so much
Thanks for this great analysis and the previous videos 👍🏼
thank you for watching
I’ve been rewatching all your Guy’s theory videos and I’m impressed on how nicely everything ties together. I was thinking that maybe you guys should make one big theory video with all of your theories organized in a mostly chronological order. I’ve been reading comments on your videos and it seems like most people don’t agree with your theories because they haven’t seen the other theories that support some of your insertions. I think making one big theory video would sway more people.
Rewatching this to pass the time until WoW, and after re-reads I still think that this makes so much sense! Same as R+L=A
btw you do a pretty good Robert impression
RIGHT!???? i told him that he did (this is the girl), I thought the same thing. haha
+The Order of the Green Hand for a few seconds I thought it was an audio clip from the show! but it was impossible because the dialogue did not fit!
These are awesome - it reminds me of the college quad/book club readings - sitting down and having deep discussions about books - going into and beyond what was written and "translated" by a teacher... Thanks for the posts...
Thank you so much. We put a lot of effort into making these and it's always great to know that they're appreciated
Brilliantly explained
The most appealing points of this are:
1. R+L=J has been too obvious for far too long. I’m sure GRRM would revel in a twist that turns his bread crumbs and the GOT show on its head. Stories of GRRM and show runners discussing Jon’s parents might just be GRRM thinking, OK, they bought the early obvious clues I laid down.
2. All of Jon’s dreams come true. He is true heir to Winterfell, he is not a bastard, and his mother is with Aegon, and just got to Westeros. He gets to meet his mom, who has some answers. The interactions with Robb as kids when he says he could never be Lord of Winterfell, even in play acting, are dramatic irony.
3. Jon does baby swap with Mance and Sam’s babies just like his dad did.
4. Aegon will probably die heroically since he seems brave, but not a major character, and Jon and Dany can hook up without incestual nastiness. I think that hook up has always been coming and the show just blows right by the fact that SHE’s HIS AUNT! If Aegon dies bravely, Dany is still the heir to the fire side of Ice and Fire.
5. Catelyn got played, and she’s the worst. She’s always worried about Jon usurping her kids, but they’re bastards and the baby she hated is gonna save Planetos.
Edited one more time to give major props to the Order of the Green Hand. There are so many things in the books that would leave you wondering why an author would include so many things that just don’t fit in the show. Namely, Aegon, Ashara, Tyrion on the riverboat, etc. People have been on R+L=J since the first book. Good effort in picking up clues, but it was always the path GRRM was paving. Can’t wait for resolution.
One last edit then since I got a like from the Order themselves. I was having my own ideas that R+L=J was a ruse, but this is so well fleshed out, I never claim these theories as my own. I point people to the Order. Also, can’t wait for more of your videos.
Even tho I do not agree with everything I still like this theory.. xD
Thank you
love your channel OotGH havent yet seen this and i actually found this on the The Lady Olenna Tyrell's playlist of favorite GoT videos thanks to all of you
+Jon jones773 thanks. We love our QOT
Damn, damn, damn. I did not expected to be this persuaded, but then I also did, since I have watched your video regarding how Jon might never have died.
awwwww
wat wat wat wAT? So you literally think Jon is not the bastard but all the other Stark children are? Whaaaaat? And it actually sounds possible... At this point I don't even really care about if it's true or not. That is an awesome theory in itself!
Thank you
So you are telling me Sansa is a bastard who thinks she is trueborn who pretends to be a bastard?
binge watching after subed loving it
thank you!
14:10 - 15:29 This is starting to make me wonder if whether or not the Blackfish knows that N+A=J. I can imagine that when he heard about how Ned Stark had fathered a "bastard", he was probably somewhat angry (for Catelyn's sake) for a moment, but then he remembered what was said during the negotiations and how Ned mentioned that he had married Ashara. After realizing all this, he put 2 and 2 together, and was like, "Ohhhh............".
This could make a great TV show, They could do a storyline around this and robert's rebellion when GoT ends.
100% agree...We have talked about how awesome a prequel would be as well
The Order of the Green Hand Good theory by the way! And yeah I'd love to see a show revolving this, I think it would be pretty good or even a movie, though a show would be better since they wouldn't be cutting things out.
we keep hoping the show will introduce Aegon and Lemore/Ashara...on top of it being an awesome story-line, the scene where Jon meets his mother would be the most powerful scene the show has ever had
If Ned was already married to Ashara when he married Cat, wouldn't that be a dishonor to Ashara? I know plenty people who have cheated on their spouses or have been cheated on....none of them named the party that they cheated with as the dishonored/disrespected. It's always the person whom they cheated on that's considered dishonored/disrespected (as well as themselves).
The marriage dishonored them all
The Order of the Green Hand Agreed. But the emphasis is always on Cat. That just doesn't make sense to me. But that could certainly just be a personal stance on the scenario. All in all, Iove the channel and appreciate the response. Keep up the great work!
Thank you...we will
Well, I think Ahsara would've understood that Ned had no choice but to mary Cat as that was the only way to get support of Hoster Tully. They were in war with an insane king who wanted them dead.
@@Ignisan_66 Of course. I think that she certainly would have understood. I'm sure that she's well aware of the fact that people married for allegiances. That wasn't what I was questioning.
I think the blackfish just found horrible that Lysa's father would marry her to a man who was old enough to be her grandfather. That's why he went to serve her, since her father clearly didn't care about her enough.
I have watched a few of your videos and at first I was adamantly against your theories, but you are slowly changing my mind.
There's the spirit!! :D
You guys definitely have some great theories and well thought out videos, you should make an intro for your videos, and when you do your sign off, you should put a light literally right in your face, it'll just ,ale it brighter and more crisp and look more "professional", and please don't take offense to this, I like your channel so I'd love to see you keep growing, and I just notice things that bigger tubers do that seem to help, that's all!! Keep it up though guys, great theories and info and content!!
Thanks for the tip
thanks so much! haha yea we need a different intro. we are asking a few people to make a song or something. the video at the end is something we want to continue at the end, but i think i need a new camera haha. no matter how much light i use it still looks pretty shabby, and if I move too much my mouth and audio don't sync up, so I just try to stay really still. if you know of any apps or have any other thoughts/suggestions, please let us know. we are totally knew to this whole youtube thing, and are learning as we go. :)
Yeah I hope you guys don't think I'm hassling you, I just really enjoy your videos and I love seeing small youtubers grow, so if I can offer any advice I would definitely try to do that, truthfully I've never made a UA-cam video, but I do a lot of video editing, if you like maybe you could send the footage from one of your old videos and I could put something together for you guys from that just to see if you guys like any of it or could just use anything I can come up with, and of course it would just be for fun for me, but it could be fun, and if it ends up being something you guys could use, great, but if not well it's not like you're losing anything, lol, just let me know I'd love to mess around with creating something for you guys, and like I said, it'd be good to take just the footage from an old video hat way I'm not privy to anything the rest of UA-cam hasn't had a chance to see yet, and just so that way you guys know I wouldn't steal your videos or anything since whatever you'd give me would be an old video that you already have up on here... anyway, let me know, I'd love to help if I can, & I can even do a couple different things and then if you like a particular version I can send you everything I used to make it so that you have it at your disposal for future videos without having to sift though a bunch of different editing software/techniques etc.. anyway, yeah ok I'm done now, lol, and I'm very much looking forward to your video on Catelyn!!!
that sounds so awesome! thank you thank you thank you! haha we are so novice at this. i didn't even know what a youtube thumbnail was until last month lol. where should we send the video?? thank you so much again! :) any video in particular you want us to send?? :)
My email is fine it's biophilasm@gmail.com, lol, I know it's weird but we won't get into that, haha, and really whichever video you'd most like to see different possibilities for I guess? You can also send me any sort of specifications etc that you guys would have for it, I love a good challenge no I haven't had a nice project in a little bit so I'm pretty pumped, especially since I do really enjoy your videos to begin with lol, so really it'd just be technologically enhancing the already great content, and would you mind if I messed around with a few different intro ideas as well? I don't know if you watch the last harpy, but his intros are some of his subscribers favorite part lol, so I thought about maybe taking a page from his book and doing some sort of altered and rearranged version of one of the scores from the show? Any specific songs that you guys really dig? Email me and we can talk more without me blowing up your comment section lol
You do an amazing Robert Baratheon impression :)
Thank you
I love coming back to these videos and being refreshed on all the devil's in the details..
Hi u two!! I am sooo behind watching your wonderful videos. Have experienced a Major Health scare. Hope u have a WONDERFUL HOLIDAY SEASON!😀❄🎅
take care of yourself and have a great holiday season
What if there was a similar situation between Rhaegar and Lyanna as you're suggesting with Ned and Cat? What if, because the existence of a living first wife, the second marriage is false and all forthcoming issues are bastards. The difference in the two situations is that Ned is pressured against his will to live a lie for the sake of the North and the realm, while Rhaegar actively seeks to do this sketchy thing. I do think that Young Griff is the child of Rhaegar by Lyanna, but he technically is a bastard. Bigamy isn't exactly illegal, but if I remember correctly the only time we see plural marriages is between Targaryens and other Targaryens. YG's suggested to be *the* Aegon that Rhaegar had with Elia, but perhaps only uses that name for the sake of gaining support from Targaryen loyalists. As a true bastard of Targaryen blood, though would he not be a good candidate for support from Blackfyre enthusiasts? Sure, he isn't an actual Blackfyre, but is an actual Targaryen bastard and that's the next best thing. The ony thing I can't figure out is that if Dany is the PWWP and Jon is slated to wield Lightbringer/Dawn (I think that PWWP is often conflated with AA), what role does YG play? And what is his real name? Bran? Is he the Bran who becomes king in the end?
Wow. That's a really interesting thought as to "Bran" becoming King in the end. It would *actually* subvert expectations, but in a GRRM way.
The funny thing is that before the Andals came, First Men Kings did sometimes take multiple wives. It seems politics were less important. Targaryen Exceptionalism was something the Faith initially agreed to, but fought tooth and nail against. I can't remember where it is, but eventually the multiple wives thing was given up as a concession to the Faith, with the understanding that incest would still be acceptable. The problem comes in that the histories where we learn this kind of stuff are written from a maester's perspective, some of it in A World of Ice and Fire or Fire and Blood, and the Maesters were not fans of the Targaryens for possessing magic.
Not sure if you have read this but turns out Wylla may be aboriginal Australian for Mother/ Wife. Cant seem to verify that yet though but would be more proof of N+A=j
is that why we never see any abadiginals modeling?
You guys are blowing my mind!!!¡
Thank you. We do what we can
The Order of the Green Hand seriously the more I see yout theories the more I like them. I am still reading Feast so I still need a lot to catch up. Great work guys!!
Stark kids being bastards ruins my Rickon the Re-builder head cannon :(
I just thought of something I find really interesting. So I jumped on and went to this video cause it is relevant on it. Some hints I thought of. Jon Snow is named after Jon Arryn...correct? Wouldn't it be an insult to name a bastard baseborn child after a high lord? Especially if he is very close to you? Also, Jon Arryn was Neds father figure, I would think it would be more fitting to name your first born son after the father figure. And it would fit if he was conceived just after leaving the Vail and Jon raised his banners in defense of him. Robb was named after his brother figure, Robert. That would be more a second son thing to do. And last, which I found interesting.... Jon is the only one that goes by the name of his namesake. I know its only a three letter name, but.... Robb, Bran, and Rickon are all shortened versions, or twists on the namesakes. Is this a clue? Idk, maybe I'm just reaching.
That is perfect....also, Val could easily be short for Vale...we always thought that the Wolf's Den being built by a King Jon Stark has significance too...its kind of perfect...Jon was conceived after Ned left Jon Arryn on his way to a place that was built by a Jon Stark...and the fact that he is the only namesake named for someone outside their own family I can think of in the story, besides sweetrobin who I don't even count because I don't even think he's Jon Arryn's, that is actually named after the person with the correct full name...Edric Storm and Edric Dayne seem to have southern versions of the name Eddard...Robb's name is Robb not Robert
This theory actually makes the most sense in why Ned would refuse to tell Catelyn all these years if the secret was that Jon was a Targ, but we'll still just have to see. I feel so sorry for Ashara Dayne if it is true that she and Ned had a baby together, and were even married and he he had to leave her for another woman. Which that also parallels Brandon's back story, his brother, because supposedly he was inlove w/Lady Dustin before she was a Dustin and wanted to marry her, but then he got betrothed to Catelyn by his dad. Such sorrowful endings to all of them, not being able to live a long life w/the ones they loved.
I do like that parallel between Brandon and Ned....both being happy with a woman of their own choosing, and then end up being stuck with Catelyn...I personally think Ashara might be the worlds perfect woman...she is better looking than every other woman, and seems to be honorable, independent and loyal...Ned really drew the short straw there...I have often wondered if he was solemn before he had to marry Catelyn...he was said to be quite, and a little shy, but Catelyn described him as solemn...it makes me think his marriage to her is what made him solemn, over the life he lost when he did it
Yep, I bet that's what it was!
the same with Robert he drinks just to get through the day , living with the whore queen
K
he deserves it though. He chose this path @@TheOrderoftheGreenhand
It is about time for your channel to GLOW UP. I say so.
So now it will be. It is long past time. Enjoy your up coming success guys. You more then deserve it.
Great video!
Thank you good Ser!